Speaker 1Hey, what's happening? Welcome back to the James Kennedy podcast. Thanks for tuning in. So I got a little something I wanted to loop you guys into because for the past few weeks I've been chipping away at quite a mountainous project with regards to the podcast. I've basically had every single episode, which is nearly 100 episodes now, transcribed into text form and I'm hosting them all on my website at jameskennedyofficial.com because I know that some of these interviews can be quite information heavy and if you miss a fact or a date or something that you want to go back and check it might be a lot easier to do that in text form where you can just search for it, you know? So, as this show is becoming somewhat of an encyclopedia now of different issues from different academics and different experts and leaders in many different fields I thought it might be useful for you guys if I was to catalogue all of that good stuff in text form as well. It is a colossal task but I think that once it's done it'll be a really good resource for anybody who wants to delve into some of the issues that we talk about on the show. So just to remind you that is over on jameskennedyofficial.com Go to the podcast page and click on it. Go to the podcast page and click on transcripts and they're all there. Completely free, no paywall, no subscription, none of that jazz. It's just a resource which is free online for anyone who might get something useful from it. Now all I'm going to ask you guys to do, please, please, please, is god damn for the love of god will you please subscribe to the podcast, will you follow the podcast on whatever platform you listen to it on whether it's Apple or Spotify or YouTube and will you give me a star rating. If you think the podcast sucks, that's fine, hit the one star. But if you're enjoying what we do here, please give us a four or a five. Really, really appreciate it. And that way we can get that algorithmic overload to suggest this podcast to other people who might benefit from it. That's all we're trying to do here. Okay, and with that said and done, let's delve into the reason we're all here in the first place. Because we are joined today by Dr. Peter Meads, a psychotherapist for over 25 years working for both the NHS and a private practice. He's just had his first book published called I'm Fine But Not Really which is an urgently timely book specifically focused on men who may be struggling but aren't having therapy, are unsure about the idea of having therapy, but could really do us some help and guidance to get them on the right track into understanding what they're going through and how to start getting better. Now you know that the mental health crisis amongst men is an issue that's very close to my heart so I'm fully behind Dr. Peter's mission with this and it helps that the book is also absolutely brilliant. So I'm going to waffle no further and welcome onto the show Dr. Meads. Thank you so much for joining us. How are you doing, sir?
Speaker 2How are you doing, James? Thanks for inviting me.
Speaker 1Thank you for being here, man. We really appreciate it. I mean, I know that you're super crazy busy right now. The success of the book, which is amazing to see. It's a brilliant book, very much needed. So thank you for writing it. And before we jump into the book and some of the themes within it, I thought it might be useful to remind the listeners, why is it exactly that men in particular need a book about mental health?
Speaker 2I think in a way when I was reflecting on who I wanted to write the book for, I realised there is a huge gap actually on the bookshelves for sort of men's mental health. In particular, and it just seems to be a topic that's kind of overlooked a bit. You know, we tend to think that, think more broadly about sort of mental health and rather than thinking that men have, they do have kind of particular sort of themes around their mental health that needs to be kind of addressed.
Speaker 1Well, we do seem to have a mental health crisis amongst men right now, demonstrated by that truly disturbing fact that the leading cause of death amongst all men under the age of 50 is suicide. I mean, that is truly shocking. What are your thoughts on that? And is there a mental health crisis amongst men right now?
Speaker 2Yeah, I think we have to be slightly cautious about sort of talking about men being in crisis very broadly, because men are not one kind of homogenous group, you know. So I don't think all men are in crisis. But I think for me, perhaps what the crisis seems to be more around the difficulty that men have, in asking for help. And it's that kind of old, you know, the old joke about men won't ask for directions, you know. And there's some sort of truth in it, really. And I think that's what's problematic. If there's a crisis, it's that. It's a crisis of men not being able to ask for help or finding it very shameful or difficult to reach out and ask for help. But you're absolutely right about some of those suicide statistics, that they are very worrying. And certainly the fact that 75% of successful suicide victims or suicides in the UK each week are men. And like you said, under 50 is the worry as well. So, yeah, so there is men tend to wait until they reach breaking point before asking for help. And I think if there's a crisis, it's that.
Speaker 1Right. Very interesting point. Yeah. Why do you think that is then?
Speaker 2I mean, there's lots of reasons, really. I mean, obviously, there are different factors, like sort of personality and culture and, you know, beliefs about independence, responsibility, that sort of thing. But, I mean, why is that? I mean, I think that men have been taught for generations and still continue to receive messages from being very young to kind of growing up that they have to be able to cope, that they have to be competent and strong and, you know, financially successful, sexually independent, sexually strong, successful, emotional partners, you know, emotional and gentle fathers. And so there's these kind of expectations on men that in some ways don't match the way that kind of the culture and society is changing, and it is changing rapidly. Yeah. So I think that there's a kind of tension and a pressure point there between those things.
Speaker 1It's really interesting. Yeah, there's still, I think, we've still got one foot in the old traditional idea of masculinity, haven't we? And like you said, the world is changing very fast, and there's a kind of disconnect there between the world we're living in now and the values that we're still trying to conform to as men.
Speaker 2Absolutely. That's it.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah. What are you seeing in your practice then? Because you've been doing this, what, 25 years or something like that, I think, isn't it?
Speaker 2Yeah, I've been a therapist over 25 years. I worked in the NHS, well, I worked in the NHS for 33 years and left a couple of years ago. And I think, you know, there are kind of recurring themes with men. The main point is that, you know, men are one of the smallest user groups of services. Right. So, you know, by far. And we see men when they're much further down the line than women. Right. So women tend to be much better at identifying that they might need help sooner. So when, by the time a man gets, it's difficult to ask for help, you know, it's very hard to get to that point. It takes a lot of courage to actually walk through a therapist or a counsellor's door. But by that point, men are often experiencing thoughts that life's not worth living. They usually are getting around that kind of stage. Whereas we see women asking for help much sooner, you know. Right. So there's that. But the themes we tend to see are quite common are things like isolation. Men can become very isolated, particularly as they approach sort of the midlife. When relationships, you know, friends are marrying off and travelling or spreading away, moving away, that sort of thing. So it becomes more difficult to stay in contact with people. Shame is a huge problem. And shame, in some ways, is very different to kind of guilt. It's shame is, guilt is more a kind of a belief that I've done something bad or I did something bad. Shame is a more core fundamental belief that I'm worthless or useless, that sort of thing. So that's a common thing. And actually, in the research that was done in the States, and here, looking at suicide notes that were left by men before ending their lives, that's a very common kind of language that's used. I'm worthless. You know, I feel useless. There's no point, you know. I'm a burden. Those sorts of things. Exactly. So that work is work and meaning. You know, men get very caught up in kind of work, you know, in order to kind of build a life. But they get very kind of stuck in a kind of work. Work becomes the meaning for life. So there's a lot of kind of issues around work, work relationships, work stress, all that sort of stuff. And obviously, in midlife, when work is changing or coming to an end, there's obviously a lot of kind of identity issues around that that then come up.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's a strange one, isn't it? It's like, for the most part, still, our whole identity is centered around what we do, you know. It is. It is. It is. Yeah, it's a tricky one, isn't it? Because, like, it's so distressing when you see that common use of language that is very, like, purpose-orientated or lack of, rather. You know, things like, I'm a failure or I'm a burden. It's very upsetting to think that people are feeling that way about themselves, isn't it? It is. It really is. So are you seeing any difference in that pattern and in the therapy room? You know, are you seeing more men coming in now? Are you seeing younger men, perhaps, or older men? Are you seeing any signs that things could be changing a little bit on that front?
Speaker 2I mean, I am now, obviously, because of the book. I'm seeing a lot more men approaching me, which is great, you know. But I think that a lot of work has been done to destigmatize talking therapies and talking generally and being more open outside of therapy, because I'm not necessarily saying that therapy is for everyone. I mean, it's not. It's not the only route to self-understanding, but certainly it's a very useful one if you're able to engage with it. But I think that, you know, there are changes. I remember I was telling you earlier that I'm from Wales and I worked in Cardiff for some time. And I remember men would come to therapy like they were in the red light district in Amsterdam years ago. There was so much embarrassment.
Speaker 1Yeah, honestly, there was
Speaker 2so much embarrassment that someone might see them coming into the sort of therapy office or whatever. And that's changed. So I do think a lot of the work. It's been done to destigmatize talking. It has improved the situation a lot. But again, like I said, the problem remains that men are waiting until they reach breaking point. Seventy five percent of men in a BACP survey recently that did eventually ask for help said they found they wish they'd done it sooner and they found talking therapy is really useful. So there's definitely a lot. There's a lot of benefit for men when they do eventually engage, but it's getting men to recognize when they perhaps need to talk a bit, a bit sooner, really.
Speaker 1Well, I can 100 percent vouch for it because I did CBT in my 20s and I absolutely loved it. It changed my life for definite. It gave me tools to understand it. It didn't fix everything. I'm still a work in progress. We always are, you know, but it gave me some really good tools which I was able to to utilize still to this day and to understand the internal weather system and everything. And you know what, what's the mechanics that are happening there? So I did it for about a year. And it really did affect me so I can 100 percent, you know, for all the fellows listening out there, if you haven't sort of thought about this yet or you're still on the fence, I can say from personal experience that it's 100 percent worth every second of it. So that's brilliant.
Speaker 2That's really good to hear that. And there are lots of different types of therapy and it can be a bit of a minefield, really trying to find out who to see and how to, you know, I think that's half the problem, really. A lot of people wonder how, how do I get help or how, you know, who do I see when I am asking for help? Because there's so many different approaches. There's so many different types of therapy and so many different therapists as well. So actually, if you know somebody that's had a successful experience of therapy, it can be a good thing to start talking to them and maybe ask them who they saw. And yeah, you know, personal recommendation is a good, is a good way in, I think.
Speaker 1And also, I think you've got to be comfortable with the therapist as well, because I've had that exact situation where I've referred people and said, oh, you know, so-and-so was amazing for me. You know, here's their number and they go and they totally didn't connect with them at all, which is, I don't understand, you know, just different. So if, if that happens and you go and you, and you, you take the brave step to meet a therapist and you don't resonate with them, that's okay. You just need to find, find the person that you click with.
Speaker 2Exactly, exactly, exactly. Yeah, it's really important that, that you feel safe and comfortable and, you know, able to open up really when you meet the person and, and that you feel that person is really listening and understanding where you're coming from. That's very important. If you don't have that experience in the first appointment. And it's probably not the, not the right therapy for you. Yeah, yeah. Don't give up. Yeah, don't give up. Yeah. But I mean, you know, I sound like I'm flying a flag here for therapy and it is helpful. And you had a really good experience with it. It helped me. It changed my life as well. And when I was, you know, I went into therapy quite early when I was sort of 18, 19, and it made a huge difference to my life. But the reason I wrote the book is recognizing that a lot of men will never walk through a therapist. There's so many men that won't. Yes. I just thought it would be really useful to kind of draw on a lot of experience over the years, a lot of knowledge that I'd gained and put it into a book that's, you know, that can be listened to or books. A lot of men don't, don't buy these sorts of books, apparently, which is not good for me, but they do listen to audio books. They do tend to buy more audio books. So that's a good thing. And, and it's another way of, of, you know, of, of, of improving self-understanding really and getting some strategies to kind of help, you know.
Speaker 1100%. Well, we need to come on to this. We need to come on to the book because that is a perfect point you just made because I've currently got a copy of the book here, which I'm waving around. The book is excellent. And like you just said as well, it's like, we're not here to convince anybody that therapy is, is the only answer and the solution to that. What you've done in the book is brilliant because you can, you can listen to a book when you're out, you know, on a walk on the audio book, or you can go to the gym or in the car or whatever it is. Nobody needs to know about it. It can be a completely private experience and the same with the book. And then maybe it can be a stepping stone, you know, once you've understood a bit more about what you're going through to consider other, other, you know, developments from that point onwards. But the book is interactive. I would definitely recommend I've, I've done both. I've done the book and the audio book. I would recommend people definitely grab the physical because it is kind of an interactive workbook almost, isn't it? You explain a lot of what's going on under the hood and you give some brilliant exercises and things that people can actually engage with that make a difference in the moment. And again, this is something you can. In the car park, nobody needs to know. You can do it completely privately by yourself, but it will make a massive difference. So I appreciate you for doing the book. I think it's quite unique in that sense.
Speaker 2Thank you. That's good. I'm really pleased that you found it helpful. Yeah, that's great. That's really great feedback. I mean, that's, if it helps one person, it's, it's job done for me, you know, it's, it's music to my ears really. Because there are so many men struggling and I, you know, I really do. I do feel for, you know, when I work with men that come, eventually get to therapy and they're in, in such a bad way, really psychologically, you know, I think how many men there are out there that are not able to ask for help or go for help. And so I really hope the book is of help to people. I am getting some positive feedback coming through already to suggest that it is really being helpful and useful to people. So that's great. That's brilliant. It's really exactly what I, what I aim for. Yeah. A hundred percent. Well, it's simple to read.
Speaker 1It's no, it's not a big dense. Exactly. You know, trope of technical terms or anything like that. You can whiz through it and it's, it's helpful in the moment. So yeah, fellas, definitely check it out. So talking about the book for those people who haven't got it and are still thinking, oh, bloody hell, I don't know where to start with all this stuff. Can you give us some, some of the more essential strategies from your practices or, or within the book perhaps to, to help people begin to understand, you know, what's happening in the neighborhood here, you know, what, what, what is the internal weather system governed by?
Speaker 2I mean, the, the book. It's full of different kinds of practical exercises you can do, but the, the, the first, the, the first chapter in a way is about, um, owning your, your story. And I think that is very important because even though we kind of know what our experience has been, we very rarely stop and, and, and sort of map it and, and sit back and reflect on it, you know? So, so one of the key exercises I would suggest to start with is, is, is, is called the timeline and I would, it's a really powerful exercise. I use it very often. I use it very early on in therapy when I'm doing therapy with men as well. And I suggest, um, that, that what you do is get a sheet of A4 paper or bigger, if you can, bigger is better really, but draw a line right across the kind of middle of the page. And that represents the timeline of your life. So horizontally divide the page into kind of columns. Um, I would suggest that you do that for kind of every 10 years of your life. And then, uh, on the kind of vertical access to going down the side. Decide on a kind of range of numbers. It could be nought to 10 or whatever works for you. So above the line, nought to 10, and then below the line minus down to minus 10. And then in those columns, just, just take some time to reflect on what are the kind of key moments in your life that, um, stand out where something was impactful. It might be something very positive, an achievement, something that a success, or when something went really well or a relationship. That, you know, was great. Uh, and, and just plot that somewhere, all those things, plot those above the line. And then below the line, plot the things that where your mood was low or things where you didn't feel so great, or, you know, there were significant changes in your life in a kind of more negative way, perhaps, or when there were struggles or challenges and just plot those. And then, you know, stand back from that. It takes, take, take your time doing that. You know, you don't have to do it all in one sitting either. You can keep coming back to it and adding things to it, but then sort of sit back and reflect on it. And it's quite interesting doing that because when you, when you take it out of your head and actually put it on a page like that, and you can look at it, you, you can begin to see patterns actually. And it's amazing what comes up for people, you know, so someone might sort of identify that every time the mood was low or something negative was happening, it was following a kind of some sort of relationship dispute or, you know, a dispute in work or a relationship breakdown or something like that. And then that might give you some kind of evidence of where you might want to be looking, putting your energy to kind of think about what was it about those particular relationships or disputation situations or work situations that resulted in that in my mood dropping to that level. And is there something around that that maybe I need to focus on or work on, but it can be a really interesting exercise to do that, you know, and also looking above the line. And I think it's really important to think about that. engaging in something new or travel or something like that um that that you can identify as a pattern that kind of lifts you up so those sorts of things that's a really good starting exercise i think that yeah
Speaker 1totally i'd never actually heard of that one before and it was really interesting to me to see that one um because i've done quite a lot of self-development work i'm interested in that stuff and i was like oh that's really interesting because stories are so important aren't they now the narratives that we tell ourselves are often at the root of a lot of these things we i personally tell myself a lot of negative stories about myself i haven't done enough i'm not that this i'm not that and then when you're able to take that big look at the whole of your story and say oh actually i'm all right i've done some cool things i'm a good guy
Speaker 2i've done my best exactly exactly that's right exactly so that's a really useful exercise and then the other one i would say is is a quite a big one and an important one is called the um the interpersonal map i don't know if you remember remember that one and again take a sheet of paper and draw um three or four concentric circles so like like you've dropped a pebble into a pond and they're sort of you know the rings are going out that way so three concentric circles and right in the center put yourself so me or your name or whatever you want to put there and then have a think about everyone in your life and start to map them on on the page and if you put them um in in relation to how close they are to you not not geographically but emotionally so someone very close to you personally and emotionally put them right in the kind of inner circle with you and then the further away someone is from you emotionally you know put them put them further out and just keep doing that mapping everyone in your life and use some kind of code i suggest maybe like um a solid line when the relationship is is strong a dotted line if it's a kind of weaker relationship and maybe a zigzag line if it's a kind of disputatious or problematic relationship you might also want to put people on there that are not living anymore that are still important to you it might be that you think about somebody a lot or talk to people that have that are not here now and map them as well but put a cross next to their name so you know that they're you know that they're not here and and then again it's a it's a process of stepping back from it putting it on the wall or on the table and giving yourself some time to think about it and then have some time to just really reflect on it because again it's one of those things that we just hold in our minds we think we think sometimes men can think they're very lonely and and actually when they start to map out they can see that their their life is quite well populated and there are people there is a lot of people in their lives and and then it's thinking about who in my life do i want to bring a bit closer and who in my life perhaps do i want to create some distance from you know so you can start thinking about those things as well i think that's a very powerful exercise
Speaker 1oh for sure yeah and there's tons more of these exercises in the book i mean the two examples that you've mentioned so far work for me because i'm very visually orientated and i think that when you can condense what seems like chaotic multi-layered noise entangled in your brain out onto like a clear sheet of paper and look at it as a big picture and think oh actually the answer is pretty clear to me now and also the act of doing it as well helps to get it out of your system to get it out of your head and onto the page so yeah the book is called the book of the book is awesome because there's tons of these exercises some will resonate with you some won't and that's great you just find the ones that work for you and work on those you know but you're also talking the book about the physical aspect of this because things like depression tension stress anxiety they there is a very physical component to this which oftentimes we don't realize because for many of us it's just normal you know but things like pain fatigue headaches tight chest a bad stomach all of these things can have and do have very real connection to the physical aspect to what's happening in our head you know absolutely you explain that brilliantly in the book and also the fact that the opposite is also true there are very physical things that we can do when we're in the middle of the storm to help snap us out of it so absolutely whilst we're on the subject of strategies what are some of the physical things that we can do when we're caught up in the middle of that moment to help us hack the system i
Speaker 2mean you're right about that and one of the chapters talks about the body and mind being being one and i think you're absolutely right a lot of men will you know go to see their gp eventually when physical symptoms get strong enough and and often you know there isn't anything physically wrong but actually it's an expression of kind of struggling psychologically and gps are quite kind of in tune with that and will refer to um to therapists counselors psychologists when they think that's happening but i think there is an impact and and men carry a lot and it's a bit like a kind of having a backpack that you're constantly putting stuff into without ever stopping to take stuff out really and if you're doing that throughout your life the backpack just gets heavier and heavier and heavier until men become completely overburdened and overloaded and they start to to struggle and i think the breath thing is incredibly powerful so you know we we don't think of it like that breathing we just think well we just breathe in fact we don't even stop to consider breathing because it's just something we do automatically but the breath is incredibly powerful and and and if we manage our breathing it has a direct um effect on the on the vasovagal nerve nervous system but also deeper breathing sends a signal to the brain that we are safe that we're not in in a state of danger shallow breathing sends a signal to the brain that we need to be prepared that we need to be alert for danger so absolutely just stopping and taking a deep abdominal breath that on its own changes the neurological signal to the brain about about safety so you shift from an emotional state of alertness into a state of of contentment and safety so it's a very powerful thing to do i mean practicing mindfulness is is an amazing practice but i mean it isn't for everyone some people struggle with it but it's a very powerful um but it's um i i describe it a bit in the book because i think it's worth knowing about and and i've seen the difference it makes particularly to men's lives when they do begin to engage with it and it's it's not you know what a lot of men think initially is oh god you know meditation i'm not sitting on a yoga mat and that's not for me you know but actually when they realize that mindfulness is just about becoming it's becoming present it's coming into the present moment and and just noticing for example your breath and your breath and your breath and your breath and your breath you know noticing your breathing is it shallow you know are you taking abdominal breaths you know and noticing stuff around you noticing the colors the shapes the light the sounds what you can feel because sometimes we can get so internal so much in our head that we we we forgot we forget that we're in we're present you know with nature with with life around us so stopping and and um looking at the colors of the leaves or the changing seasons that sort of thing is incredibly important for mental health as well as kind of physical health oh for
Speaker 1definite yeah man i mean there's some really like basic ordinary normal stuff that we just don't get to do enough of these days because of the the pace of our life and work and the system living that we live under now but just things like stepping out and having a walk around the block by yourself just catching five minutes of peace and quiet to collect your thoughts you know for me like just sitting in the front seat of my car and just closing my eyes for a couple of minutes you know just doing some calm breathing before you go face first into the rest of your day or into work or you know what whatever situation you know you're going into just simple little things like that can just cool the system down a little bit calm your head down or maybe you're a gym guy you know i mean some people love to sweat it out in the gym and they feel great when they come out you know the physical side of things is very important and it can be something as simple as like breath work you know like breathing out slower than you breathe in so that you can't you slow your heart rate down and things like that that's very effective going for a fast run and just burning all that cortisol off or just having a little light down for 10 minutes man you know like the physical aspect of this is very very powerful because like you said you know there is that connection between the body and the mind which is very real thing
Speaker 2yeah that's it yeah and while you're doing it if you're i mean sitting in the car is a good example you can do a quick body scan as well so you're starting with the top of your head just kind of pay attention to your body and notice you know each kind of part of your body you know starting at the top and going down through your shoulders down through your chest your your abdomen and your spine and your down through your legs and into your feet and notice any tension anywhere just notice where you're holding tension because different people tend to hold tension in different parts of the body for a lot of people it's their neck or their shoulders or their legs or their back you know and just noticing that and sometimes paying attention to your feet we forget about our feet sometimes and you know just telling yourself how are my feet are my feet cold are they hot you know just drawing your kind of attention to your feet and then feeling your feet in contact with the ground is a very grounding exercise and can also it takes the body out of a state of danger and alertness and readiness into a state of contentment and relaxation
Speaker 1it's fascinating stuff isn't it it's so fascinating what a great line of work to be involved in you know it's a
Speaker 2great privilege to do it yeah yeah
Speaker 1i'm changing people's lives what can i'm conscious of the time i've got a few things i want to ask you before i'm going to try and let you head out early what can partners friends and family members do to help you Friends and family listening to this do to help if they recognize that somebody close to them might be struggling what can
Speaker 2they do essentially you were talking about walking and that because one of the things in that survey the bacp survey that was done recently found was that a lot of men many men find walking and talking really helpful um and actually i think that's because for men sometimes um the the the kind of eyeball to eyeball thing can be quite quite feels too intimate maybe or can feel quite difficult it depends on your relationships and the sort of man you are i guess but a lot of men do say they find looking into the whites of another man's eyes quite sort of difficult and talking about their feelings and that sort of thing and so what a lot of men tend to prefer is kind of side by side activities which is why i think a lot of men are drawn to sport and um music maybe and and doing things that they they're more kind of side by side rather than face face to face sort of thing so walking i mean you could you know if you think somebody's struggling and some of the big signs of that might be if you notice a friend of yours or a family member that's withdrawn that's a kind of key indicator that they may need some some extra contact or you might need to reach out to them and and suggest a walk maybe something as simple as that suggest a walk and what i would say is that you know we are inviting men to talk more but uh and i think that's great but we also do need to get better everyone needs to get better at listening to men when they are communicating when they are talking because for a lot of men it isn't always just about being very articulate in in what they're saying they might already be trying to express something but it's not being heard in a way so it's very important to really try to listen and notice when a man is trying to communicate something to you um and men communicate in different ways you know it's not always very obvious you know i was walking um i've got two miniature schnauzers and i was walking them in the park a couple of sundays ago uh on an early sunday morning actually so i don't know why this guy was in the park i think he was smoking a joint i have to say but he was um he was a a kind of very typical central london um southeast london lad you know with his hood up and he was sitting on a bench there and one of the dot these schnauzers are they're ratters so they've got their instinct when they see a squirrel is to chase chase it you know and uh this is central london i forget so it's not wales and the people are not used to nature maybe as much and anyway the the dogs they chase the squirrels but they've never caught one but this sunday they they caught up with and they did catch it and uh and a quick shake of the neck and it was over you know for the squirrel but this guy um suddenly got his phone out started getting mad with me you know started he got his phone and i'm gonna put you on tiktok and you know control your dog and all that sort of thing and he was really raging actually i think you know was becoming quite threatening and and i think what i saw actually was that he was shocked and and quite sort of disturbed by what he'd seen he obviously hadn't seen nature in action before like that and uh so instead of kind of getting aggressive back i didn't care about tiktok anyway i mean put on what you like you know five minutes would be great so i didn't kind of argue about that but i went oh i sort of approached him gently and just sort of said i know it's it's really i can see you're upset seeing that it is shocking to see something like that happening if you haven't seen it before but it's kind of instinct it's nature you know and uh and he just i think i don't think he'd had an experience of somebody really seeing him in that way before you know so he just immediately kind of softened and and then we started talking about it that sort of thing and it was you know then he shouted over to me when i was leaving i've deleted it i've deleted the video you know but it was his way of saying you know it's it's cool you know that was and i think there was this moment like a little exchange that felt like quite a sort of intimate moment but i think i'm using that example because like what sometimes can look like anger might be something else particularly for men because men have been taught that kind of anger you know it is a male emotion it's a male emotion it's a male emotion it's kind of it's an acceptable kind of expression of an emotion whereas you know sadness vulnerability maybe that's not so acceptable so just notice maybe we need to get better at noticing you know is this really anger i mean aggression is a different thing but when someone's angry what's going on you know what is it is it really an expression of sadness perhaps or fear you know it could be one of those things um so i think we need to get better at listening as well when men do talk and not shaming people it's surprisingly common and i don't want to kind of i'm not saying all women but it's not uncommon to hear men say that when they are vulnerable women will will will be shaming of them being vulnerable in some at some level you know so so if if if if men if that happens men can then learn that it maybe it was safer if if i was just quiet or if i withdraw you know so when they do open up you know be be respectful of the fact that a person has taken that risk and that's that's not easy to make oneself vulnerable so those are some of the things i would i would suggest as a kind of starting point yeah
Speaker 1brilliant yeah great point well as we get towards the end i'd like to loop back to where we started out where we discussed some of the social constructs and ideas that many men are still defined by which are kind of the source of a lot of these problems and the reason why more men are still uncomfortable speaking out about this stuff i.e you know traditional ideas of masculinity and what a man is supposed to be and do and all of the problems that that story causes so to your mind how would you define a more healthier balanced idea of masculinity that's compatible with the world that we live in
Speaker 2today it's difficult that isn't it because there's i mean there isn't one form of masculinity but there probably aren't as many types of masculinity as there are men you know right right i think we you know uh the press the media gets quite obsessed with kind of this idea of toxic masculinity and you know what's good masculinity that i mean you know the last thing i would want to do is say that there's a particular type of masculinity like another thing yes that you have to be uh but i suppose what i would say in in terms of a kind of from a sort of emotional health and mental health perspective is that it's helpful see some of those those qualities that that that are stereotypically masculine like protection and and strength and independence coping those sorts of things they're not bad qualities they're not good qualities to have the problem is is when they become rigid and inflexible so so some kind of flexibility some balance so that you know a man can be strong and tender you know confident and need someone and able to need someone you know be to be courageous but also be able to be frightened as well um to be responsible but also able to receive help from others as well so that kind of level of flexibility i think is is what's healthy in a sense yeah yeah love it yeah
Speaker 1another great point uh well i got one more question before i'm gonna let you go because i know you're a busy man um to all the men listening out there that haven't begun their journey yet that have you with it with this conversation what would you like to say to them is change possible is it worth them you know opening up the pandora's box and and tiptoeing into the world of self-development
Speaker 2it's absolutely possible change is possible and if you're struggling the the important thing is to try and find someone that you feel safe enough to to speak to but it's maybe like five percent more don't you know you don't have to change everything on monday morning sort of thing you know it doesn't always have to list little steps taking little changes little steps but it's absolutely possible therapy isn't for everyone you know you might find my book more useful but there are other ways to self-understanding you know so you know music the arts are amazing ways to to get to understand yourself better but trying to have a look at your your network and think about you know what relationships report you might have hundreds of people in your network and still feel very isolated or you might have very few people and feel quite well connected so about building more intimacy in the relationships you have but change absolutely is possible and things do get better and can get better
Speaker 1amen to that brother well peter we've got to let you go thank you so much for joining us today and for making this brilliant book and sharing so many real gems of insight that will help so many people we appreciate you and wish you all the best with your mission the brilliant book i'm fine but not really is out now and i would highly recommend it to all my brothers out there who know something's not right but don't know where to start dr meads has got you covered i'll put a link to the book in the show notes so you can grab the book directly from there please take a look at it peter also has an amazing instagram page at drpeter.notes and a website at petermeads.co.uk dr meads it's been such a pleasure chatting to you thank you so much for joining us and we wish you all the best cheers james thanks so much thank you man see you soon all right take care bye-bye dr peter meads has left the building what a lovely guy and another welshie with patrick jones from last week and russell warfield the week before and myself it's like the welsh are taking over this thing a lot of talent in these quarters baby Right. Well, fellas, we need to chat to you. Life is tough, isn't it? No one can be expected to shoulder all this burden and not feel strain or stress or struggle at any point. Just ain't possible. Life is tough, man. But life can also be beautiful. On the other side of the struggle, on the other side of the darkness, life can be beautiful and is worth fighting for. So please, please, please, if you're struggling, and we all do from time to time, don't let it get to breaking point. If you don't have anyone you can talk to, if you're uncomfortable talking to a stranger in a therapy room, reach out, man, or try some of the things we talked about in this episode and start putting yourself back together. You deserve it. This world needs good men, decent men. So please, please, please, take the time to do whatever you've got to do to keep yourself steady. Because you, my brother, are freaking awesome. Hope you enjoyed the conversation. And this is just one of several episodes we've now done on mental health, specifically men's mental health. So if you want to hear more on the issue or different perspectives on the issue, you can check out the episode we did with Luke Ambler, the founder of brilliant mental health charity, Andy's Man Club. And the recent episode we have with George Bell, specifically focusing on a healthier idea of masculinity. To mention but two. So get digging. And if you want to join the conversation, these episodes are all available on YouTube. You can jump in the comments section and connect with other people. Who might relate to what you're going through and might be able to help share some tips and advice from their journey as well. Before I sign off, I want to nag you again. Subscribe to the goddamn podcast, man. I got eyes, baby. I can see the numbers. Help me keep this thing going by smashing that rating button. Chuck me some stars, dude. I'm going to keep nagging you until every last one of you does it. And I'll be back next week with another awesome guest. We got a good one. So stay tuned. Stay safe. Stay connected. Be good to each other. And be good to yourself. man, you deserve it. I'll catch you next week.
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