Speaker 1Hey what's going on welcome back to the James Kennedy podcast the place where we explore the big questions in politics, health, society, art, mental health, the human condition and how to navigate this crazy thing called life. Now so far on this show we've had scientists, rock stars, activists, academics, authors and philosophers but we have never yet had a poet and today we bring you not just our first poet on the podcast but one of the most prolific, provocative and powerful modern poets in the game. That was a lot of words beginning with p. We'll be talking about the arts, class, politics, resistance, literature and we will definitely be talking about Palestine so buckle up and enjoy the ride. Before we jump in please please please give the podcast a follow on your platform of choice this thing is available everywhere including YouTube and if you like what we're doing over here please hit that rating button and give us some stars. But without further ado we are joined today by the poet, playwright, activist, style icon, fellow valleys boy and all-around awesome human Mr. Patrick Jones. How are you doing sir?
Speaker 2Hello James lovely to be here and uh it's my first sort of podcast for years to have a chat with so I'm a bit excited a bit nervous um obviously you worry about what we're going to talk about but yeah not worried so much just like how do we cram it all in because it's so many things.
Speaker 1That's the problem yeah I think we're not going to be shorter topics but we might be we might be shorter on time yes well you you you come today with the center of the conversation today is going to be centered around you have brought the world another glorious collection of beautiful wordplay fire rage truth despair and hope in poetic form being released in October called Antidotes Dissolution. Tell us all about this new gift you're bringing to the world.
Speaker 2Well thank you for that description description of it disruption yeah it is um description of it James yeah um yeah split into we've decided now to do it as two books because the thematically they're very different and um Richard publisher at um Parthian after he had read the first book he said oh I needed a break he said I needed a rest because they're all about Palestine and the ongoing genocide so um yeah we got I was thinking it you know corollaries not so much literary wise but um um I was thinking oh use your illusion one and two you know we won't sell as many as that and also I didn't realize that Bruce Springsteen did human touch and lucky town they were going to be one album uh one album and they were released on the same day and if you look at the artwork now you can see they they correspond right I'm not a huge Springsteen fan but I like you know some of his you know Nebraska sort of era but um so sorry to go off about the so the so the style of it these two two books Antidotes and Disruption Heart is Security Risk part one part two is called Hold This Dust because I went I think I've I've just gone on the last couple years have been a quite a personal journey myself with grief and coming out of toxic relationships um surgery which um is is a poem you might have come across in the in the second book about the surgery which that sort of links in with the rise of the right wing fascist elements we've got to exist with at the moment um and of course the main inception was my time in Palestine in in June 23 occupied uh West Bank where I went with my husband and my wife um we went to the Martin Joseph's um charity and the Amos Trust um and we met the most beautiful people I think I've come across you know on this earth and there was no there was no fake stuff when you you know you're going it wasn't a holiday I gotta say that but when you go on holiday sometimes or abroad you're faced with this or you know overly nice welcoming thing from the indigenous people um because they want to sell you something essentially in that whereas Palestinian people just welcomed us into their home and they were like oh my god I'm going to go to Palestine I'm going to go to Israel I'm going to go to Israel I'm going to go to Israel I'm going to go to Israel they were their homes their community spaces their streets their shops there was no pressure like that and the stories that they told us really just because I'm probably like you I thought I knew what was going on over there James you know from the news and trying to be self-aware you go into through Tel Aviv airport and straight away you you know what's going on this this apartheid occupation state you know and then we met with the the Palestinian people um just ordinary people taxi drivers shoppers and all of that and we met with the the Palestinian people shopkeepers um people who are working in the arts tour guides and then you start hearing these stories and you just think oh I didn't realize it was as as it was as it is if you know what I mean so um I started writing then and one of the main things is because you know leaving I suppose we felt a bit like like four years we're going back to to Wales we're not going to be shot at or our water tanks shot or our electricity turned off or our children imprisoned for no reason so we felt a bit guilty and I said well what what can I do as a as a writer you know and they and and many people just said please just tell our stories right and I just thought that that is it that's that's that's all I can do I mean I'm not a politician and so so that book came from um uh the the time when I was there and then of course what we've witnessed for the last nearly three years um now um which again is a huge subject we could spend hours talking about that um every day in the news there's something where you know look at the Ed Sheeran and McLemore situation has just erupted there and then you see I didn't know Robert Kraft didn't even know the name to be honest owned these um you know uh stadiums uh huge Zionist supporter and and it's just it's just every day there's another chess piece yeah so in a way my book is a is a but it's like a chess chess chess board putting all the pieces together to make sense in my head because probably like I still talk to people and about it you know and and they you know they come back with a stock answers oh I I always sided with Israel it's written in the bible and you just think what a you've got to believe that shit for a start yeah yeah and and and then the rest of it um so I feel I'm banging my head against the wall and words to me in my way like music to yourself that yeah that you make sense of it and you put it out there and and let people deal with it you know so sorry for that long rat rattle
Speaker 1beautiful beautiful I mean you know what a story for a start I mean I can't imagine you know what it would be like being over there I've never visited the area um I'm very passionate about the subject as you are and I think that would be a lot in both ways I mean like you said the the amazing people that you met and and it you describe it so beautifully in the poem the heart is a security risk I love that I've heard you read that and it's it's a stunning piece which really does capture you know everything beautiful about the people and the place and your visit but like you say they're coming home and knowing you know what you're leaving behind and what you're you know you're coming back to your your safe you know lovely green life in the valleys and and and the situation out there many of the people you met are probably no longer with us anymore that must have been such a difficult bittersweet heart-wrenching paradox of an experience oh totally
Speaker 2James yeah it was because you know you have such beautiful times there you know and talking and just um you know sharing drinks and food you know Palestinians are so generous with it food sharing and and that communal spirit and then we come back you know like you said like to our little world um leaving behind that you know that they still got to deal with those snipers on the edge of their their home streets yeah their villages are blocked off like like you know it's like like Blackwood would be would have a gate on it saying no you can't you cannot leave or you cannot go into your hometown and there's nothing you can do about it because as you know you might phone the police or you know the army turn up there's only one side they actually support obviously I mean that's just psychologically that must be I I don't know how Martin Joseph's got a beautiful song called the luxury of despair and that came from a um a quote that someone he met over there who said um because Martin said I don't know how you cope you know how do you cope with this and he said we do not have the luxury of of despair right meaning they just have to carry on and you know and you know that word resilience is used but usually by middle class people in arts projects but that is true resilience you know and um yeah not having a choice you're right or just giving up isn't it and and um so words are my only words are my ammunition I suppose that's all I've got you know to sort of fight back and and speak about it and interesting when I came back I did in June 2023 July I did try to speak about it you know try to talk you know go in touch with Wales Online, Nation Cymru, many different you know outlets and no one was interested didn't want to know at all um I don't know why maybe I because I wasn't Michael Sheen perhaps you know I don't know you know people didn't you know now they do I think Nation Cymru are quite you know um you know engaged in in being witness to what's going on yeah but uh it was interesting at that timeline again I just thought oh my god I'm going mad but I almost thought you know perhaps I didn't see what I saw you know because yeah you feel like that because people who I would talk to would sort of you know um you know it's like gaslighting it's like gaslighting in a relationship you you you feel as if you were going mad because oh I saw that I saw that that Palestinian tour guide not allowed to walk down his home streets in Hebron by an IDF 18 year old female soldier who had um all her nails painted she said we can walk down but he couldn't and you just think this can't you know I'm like you I you know I think I I I live uh from my heart I work create from my heart and that just really it just upsets you you you know it's upsetting me hearing about it and i know it's going on we all know and worse
Speaker 1yeah and and much much worse we all know but just just simple things like that it's just the inhumanity of that that people have to live with every day is just you know brutal but as you say you know we have the um how did how did mine describe it the privilege of despair was that what it was oh so
Speaker 2we um we have the luxury of this luxury of despair yes
Speaker 1right they don't yeah exactly yeah so that that's how i feel it's like uh you know i i have the luxury of feeling that way but they're also the frustration of knowing that what can i do so it's beautiful that you have you've you've sort of um confronted that in in both visiting and seeing for yourself the reality on the human everyday level but also expressing it in such a beautiful and powerful and you're not fucking around in these poems either you know what i mean you know you're not pulling any punches and there's there's there's facts in there as well and figures and you you're not sugarcoating this issue or dressing it up at all and there's the poetic side where it's you're dealing with the heart and soul and the humanity of the issue but then you're also tackling the the political and the military issue as well head on so you know hats off to you i mean it's poetry and it's beautiful but it's also very very powerful on an issue that is very real right now thanks james
Speaker 2yes yeah you you're right i i didn't try to like you know be overly you know because some of those you know instances and those issues and that they dealt with i couldn't deal with them in the you know a highly you know abstract sort of way i you know i i never compromise i suppose um um but you know what i need to say yes they are poetic images and one does again felt a bit guilty of being poetic wise as opposed to a you know a hard-edged like newspaper journalist article but that that's my currency poetry but i i don't want to confuse people i wanted people to feel yeah what i felt when i was there and to try and bear witness and what we've been witnessing as well that's the same thing you know that's streamed in 24 7 isn't it it doesn't seem to touch many people and one has to live one's own life as well of course because it would drive you mad but yeah but you know there's the poem and they know their names which is about all the children murdered uh in gaza since um october the third uh seven sorry and uh um you know over 23 000 children um all all those beautiful you know lives white out and so what can i do to change it i can't but i can um you know write a poem about it um speak about it i also saw on instagram this today actually it was about an organization called uh stitch their names where they're stitching every single name of a child killed in palestine on this massive you can imagine how big this is this this tapestry and they were um i think they were also saying that they had been attacked or banned somewhere because of you know anti-semitism because they're being witness so yeah it's um we all play our tiny little parts i think in it but things are changing in many ways i don't know what you think about that but
Speaker 1well i think things have changed certainly on the narrative front this past week i mean we were chatting beforehand and obviously you know it's inevitably going to come up in in a conversation on this issue what's happened this week with ed sheeran i mean it seems kind of you know like a different world to you know anyone that's um you know actively engaged in and aware of this issue like we are um just to be talking about who gives a fuck what ed sheeran thinks about it but it kind of it does raise the issue for me as to um the role of the artist and the role of art in exposing you know the crimes of our times um and i was that was one of the things i wanted to ask you obviously i mean you've kind of already answered how you feel about it already with what you do but i do think that it has massively amplified the issue in the mainstream arena as well where the people agree with you and i think it's a very important issue and i think it's a very important issue and i think it's a very important issue and i think it's a very important issue or don't agree i do i certainly think the narrative has been amplified this week because of the fact that sheeran's been kicked into it against this well what do you think about that
Speaker 2oh yeah totally i think yeah it's totally backfired for them all involved because they try to you know oust uh mahamor and when you think of it two words free palestine um so so does that mean if you're against that does that mean you want palestine imprisoned occupied destroyed eliminated really i mean that's to me that's the hate speech that's the hate speech that's the hate speech that we should be addressing you know if you don't you know um free ukraine everyone wants that yeah you know so i'm rightly some people can talk about it if you say free palestine it's almost like you it's like a dirty you know dirty dirty word a phrase yeah but but it's not of course it's been we're made to feel that so um but yeah the ramifications you're right i think it's made people perhaps who not have been engaged in it or know what's going on maybe look into it deeper and i do think that the state of israel doesn't want people to know what's going on it it's a covert you know uh operation and as soon as people we you know see it i i do think then unless they're totally um inhumane or so far right um or brain brain dead to think this is wrong you know and i think if if you've got young people talking about it maybe the future things can change and and they're not going to put up with it perhaps and they will know more and like you said the narrative has changed and then you had two weeks ago with um you know ed milliband speech which i thought was very measured and really you know it made a statement and and and you know good good for for speaking out about this and um um so you know you've got these tiny little you know parts of the jigsaw again you know coming together and perhaps there is a like i said a sea change in how we are viewing it and what people are prepared to put up with anymore and with the gaslighting and um yeah so i think it's a good thing that we're able to do that and i think it's a good thing that we're able to do that and i think it's a good thing that we're able to do that so i i take a little bit of stuff and with i don't know if you saw his name is david miller and he was a professor yes yeah he won his case yeah he won his case that's right so you know
Speaker 1we're getting these small victories we are getting them yeah yeah i totally agree yeah i mean it's not enough but but like you said we've all got to do our little bit and all those little bits do make a difference you know yes uh if only we're just keeping ourself fucking sane through having to to witness this you know you've got to get it out of you somehow and i think it's a good thing somehow and you've done that beautifully in this book i'm going to keep coming back to the book because obviously we're talking a lot about palestine as we should as we all should but we do want to remind people you know that you're expressing this issue beautifully in this amazing book which will be out soon we've got to do a little bit of promo as well trying to straddle the line between talking about palestine and promoting a book
Speaker 2yes yeah um yeah i'm looking forward to getting out and doing some readings and sharing these poems and again no holds bought but i i i say it as it is and as i've written them and and whatever unfolds unfolds you know well i was going to
Speaker 1ask you if you would mind reading us a little from from from the book a short
Speaker 2short one maybe is it whatever you're
Speaker 1comfortable with yeah yeah
Speaker 2get my old glasses these days could
Speaker 1this be a podcast debut from from the book
Speaker 2yes i i thought you might have um i likes the wrong word but but gravitated to the that uh how you know you probably know alternative elster but i still fingers yes did you know that yeah yeah yeah which has always been one of my favorite songs from 1979 i think um and he just came to me one morning about you know the oppression in in in northern ireland and and uh and gaza and palestine and anyway the words sort of came out there um i'm practicing on guitar but i don't think i'll get there but it's quite a simple guitar one um but i think i'll keep it quite short maybe as if a podcast yeah thank
Speaker 1you thank you appreciate it
Speaker 2that's okay no i let me see what we got um um i'll do this one uh it's called kalas i probably mispronounced it halas more which is an arabic word uh which means enough enough like a real scream of enough um and um and i wrote this because i was doing a lot of marches and protests um you know and rallies and it you know sometimes people ask me to read a poem and you needed something quite direct it's you know it's like uh a couple of the songs on your album they almost become like chants and you know the people do you know yeah you need that rhythm and so i wrote this based on yeah it was quite short and direct um uh so i'll read i'll share this okay halas this desolation appropriation isolation occupation demolition forced migration they are violation exploitation condemnation or conversation representation or recognition this zionization dispossession segregation colonization demarcation starvation this militarization annihilation this immolation where is the mediation de-escalation solutions revolutions prosecutions there must be sanctions there must be sanctions there must be sanctions there must be sanctions resolutions a cessation a constitution to build a coalition a foundation for emancipation self-actualization cooperation and transformation for this brave battered and beautiful nation
Speaker 1absolutely stunning love it yeah thank you james yeah beautiful so powerful and so true
Speaker 2all those words when you think about oh my god they all are in my opinion and you know yours i'm sure yeah encapsulate so much of what what what has gone on and is going on
Speaker 1Nothing else needed just those words, you've just encamped the whole issue, beautiful, stunning Thank you On
Speaker 2the album I got a lot of sound samples of that one with the UN Commissioner who opens it up and it ends then with a speech from a Palestinian oud player based in Cardiff, Sally Hassan and he does a short speech at the end of it, which gives me goosebumps
Speaker 1There's a spoken word version of this coming out as well
Speaker 2No, it's on the album I think you got it The Constellation of Sorrows Oh, I did
Speaker 1buy that, where the fuck is that?
Speaker 2You forgot about it
Speaker 1I hope it didn't die in my car, because it's a CD, isn't it, right? I bought a bunch of stuff for the last one I've got the book fused by my by my bedside which I dip into now and again I'm not testing you, don't worry Well, you've just reminded me, no, I've got to hear that, man because I put the CD in my car and I was wondering, where the fuck is the spoken word stuff as I was preparing for the podcast and my last car had a bunch of CDs in it and it blew up, the car actually blew up, I was doing a concert and I came back and it looked like it had been firebombed like on the side of the mountain, everything in there got destroyed, now I have a feeling it might have been in there
Speaker 2Okay, well, that's my excuse That's the best excuse ever, yeah
Speaker 1My car blew up I'll send you another one anyway Oh, thank you so much, I appreciate that No, yeah, because your readings are amazing I've heard you read live a few times and one of the things I was going to mention as well was it's a bit like, for me, with poetry obviously we all read things in our own voice we all read everything in our own voice but when you hear something live it's a bit like when you hear an album by a band you don't quite get it but then when you go and see them live and you're like oh fuck, this is the best band in the world I feel like that with poetry and when you, specifically read your own stuff it just carries a whole different energy and dimension to it which makes the whole thing make so much more impact you know what I mean and that's how I feel when you read so yeah, I mean, I've got to hear that from my own personal enjoyment
Speaker 2Well, thank you I agree about spoken word, yeah you know, poetry and it does come alive, doesn't it? or it fails on its arse because when and it's that engagement with that live poet reading if you feel they believe in it and care about it I think it conveys you know yeah, people have said oh, you sort of rant on or you do this and I just I just do it the way I have to do it, really and yeah it's like the way you perform I mean, someone can say oh, James, slow down a bit or, you know but it's you, isn't it? Yeah, that's all I got that's all that, yeah yeah that's how I do it true artists, yeah so yeah, yeah I mean, I've been to so many poetry readings where I just I'm almost nodding off yes it sounds terrible but, yeah but
Speaker 1yeah, like I was talking to do you know the comedian Mark Thomas? yes, yeah yeah, he's a great comedian yeah, he was on the podcast and he's doing a play at the moment and we had this exact same conversation about stand-up and the theatre and he was like you know, I don't want to be I don't want to have a play or a stand-up routine that people are just sitting there politely applauding I want them to walk out feeling like they've been punched in the fucking stomach you know what I mean? right and I was like, yeah, yeah so it's the same in stand-up, poetry the theatre having that oomph because these these they're sort of almost considered to be highbrow arts aren't they? oftentimes you know what I mean? so what you're doing what you're doing is like fucking rebel poetry it's like punk poetry
Speaker 2you know? well, thank you yeah, exactly you know without compromising or I don't do it as a fake thing you're right it's but so many poetry people it's like as if it's just going through a routine for them and they you know and they don't they almost like want to confuse the audience and I don't know if that should be
Speaker 1how clever they are, yeah
Speaker 2yeah, exactly so I do it my way I'm too old to go any other way
Speaker 1well, you've been you've been consistent in the the fucking fire hasn't hasn't hasn't dimmed in like how many decades have you been doing this? it's getting it's getting
Speaker 2oh, yeah I don't think I'll ever retire you know, people talk about pensions and all things of that well, I I am going to retire you don't have that luxury, yeah yeah on my dying day I'll be I'll be picking up that pen
Speaker 1and love it love it well, I want to going back from your dying day to where it all started I want to ask you you know what your influence is I mean do you mind if we mention your brother because you know your brother is of course Nicky Wire from the Manic Street Preachers yeah and for those who don't know obviously and also a very literary interested figure as well as the lyricist of the band a lot of heavy highbrow sort of references in the Manix lyrics as well you know Primo Levi Sylvia Plath and you know who else have they Miller all those guys it makes me wonder what your home life must have been like growing up with you both having that interest was that was that a result of of your parenting or the household in some way or was it just coincidental?
Speaker 2yeah we were you know working class family from Blackwood you know my dad worked my mum had stayed at home in those days in the 70s money was always tight as anything never had a foreign holiday you know two weeks maybe in West Wales or Cornwall very simple things which gave us a good grounding and that's what I've tried to do with my own children you know it's I have a saying I'll say it now I call live small think skies and which when you say that sounds a bit like the David Brent quote but I'm sorry you know live small and I do I really believe in that so like I keep you know keeping about things small you know when people talk about millions of pounds and all that you know it's just absurd I find so going back to your question we had a very simple grounded you know working class upbringing my dad was a self-taught sort of he left school at 14 loved reading so the house was filled with books but we weren't like you know have you got children? oh right okay that's why I'm going grey well I suppose you know I remember when my kids were young I was always like oh try drama oh there's a dance thing going on or there's this and that you know only gently pushing them in I think it's even worse these days people have schedules for their kids don't they so anyway we didn't have any of that really I think maybe I went to a youth club once or you know I didn't like it funny smell in there I just didn't like I never liked joining things really so I never did anything really like you know structured it was just you know me and Nick talked about it that we you know part of you know being that finding your voice was being bored and being just thinking I don't know you know just staying at a wall for a couple of hours or just you know it's just hard to understand these days isn't it or explain it so yeah like I said it wasn't we weren't like you know pushed into anything Nick had his thing obviously music was more his vernacular I think you know um but it was it was just you know sounds a bit stereotypical an organic way we just found ourselves you know I think raging against things as well and I had been bullied in school and I always remember that I always remember this this sense of being you know really scared of being being myself really and I wasn't a very good fighter um so I never really fought back but I think I built up in my head revenge narratives and not you know violent well some might have been violent but it they came out in words in later life really this sort of I couldn't understand why someone would would do that sort of thing I think I was quite innocent in many ways you know so I went through a strong sense of injustice maybe at a young age perhaps maybe yeah I did I think yes and and this sense of I was always watching I like to observe and stand back a bit I think and so that sense of writing I think you know the artist the world we watch and we we suck it in sometimes like a sponge love it um um and and so yeah you know going back my mom was a vegetarian before he was like cool to be a vegetarian in the 70s except my dad um always read we weren't we weren't like far left or anything like that we were sort of quite quite centred really but just about the basic things of life you know looking after people um you know paying your bills you know just living quite my parents never had a credit card for example very simple things like that which I think imbued me in a sense of just just living a sort of a yeah I'm not like you I'm not a rock and roller really you know I'm quite quite simple and just um you know quite just yeah um you know live with ideas quite small really but my head bursting open with with ideas and sense of injustice and I had to write about it Nick made his music and his songs um and of course James Ritchie and Sean Ilg they had their they never let me join yeah bastard they said they said you're too fat and too ugly and fucking look at the state of them now who's laughing now um but no they were right you know I I can play a D chord with a hammer on you know that's my
Speaker 1yeah well they're an interesting band I mean because the lyrics are so it's such a big part of what they do as well and there's not many bands I mean you know apart from you know I could think of like maybe some of the bands that were precursors to the Manics like The Clash perhaps are clearly an influence on the band but there's not many bands that are so out there with these literary references as well you know what I mean and the fact that they're so open about the politics and the literature and you know all that sort of element to it so I find that interesting as well that yeah you know that like it seems like very fertile for me as I imagine the sort of the household that would have cooked you know Patrick Jones and you know Nicky Wireup is not the household that you're describing, which is interesting.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's right. know we wasn't we lucky enough i you know when education was a big part and you know i remember i think i was 17 and i was had this girlfriend and she said oh why didn't you leave college and get a job and come and live with me in risca and i remember going back to my parents and at that time i almost did that you know i'm not saying that's not the end you know it doesn't have to be the end of world and i know that but i just they said my mom said no that's that's we're not allowing you to do that but you carry on with your studies then you can decide and of course she was right you know you've got to see the world you've got to break out a little bit and i went off to university studied literature and then went to university swansea as well which definitely had a broadening of our minds you know like i said i hadn't traveled far going off to swansea and living there and just yeah going to the library and so so it was quite an i say academic with a small a it was just a love of learning you know right right yeah and so i think nick's lyrics yeah they were very almost little manifestos and built from the things he was reading um which is a really good book and i think it's a really good book and i think it's a really good which they all brought and then richie came on board and his sort of style of writing so i don't quite know where it came from really when you think blackwood in the early 80s you know there was um you know the minor strike and the sense of thatcher crushing communities um which i definitely filtered into our dna i think this sense of oh my god what is going on you know what we're being crushed and when you think of it um what started then i you know and you look at the musks the know, MAGA movement, the whole lurch to the right and laissez-faire government, you know, well, 40, 45 years ago, 46 years ago, the seeds were definitely, I think, now the more I learn, which we didn't know at the time, miners didn't know, of course, we were living in fight or flight, I think. But I think there was a lot of things planted there which have grown now. 100%. Yeah. We see what's going on now, you know. Yeah. Sorry for my long-winded answer.
Speaker 1No, I love it. I think it's fascinating. It's the cultural times that you were both seeded from that have led to this. That's interesting to me.
Speaker 2Yeah, because you were a bit younger, obviously. You were about, what, 40, James?
Speaker 1I'm 46 now.
Speaker 2Oh, you look a lot younger than I am. I get that a lot, yeah.
Speaker 1I tell people you want to see the painting in my attic, it's fucking horrific.
Speaker 2But yeah, so similar generation, well, you are like 15 years younger, obviously, yeah. And where did you grow up?
Speaker 1Well, I'm a bit of a mountain goat. So I was born in Cardiff, raised in Barrie for about nine years, and I remember the Poltax riots and stuff. And then moved to Pontypool, and then Caerphilly, and then Cardiff, and now I'm in Aberdeen. So kind of all over the place, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a values boy, for sure. But similar background, you know, working class parents, you know, a lot of books, a lot of Tony Benn, you know, a lot of anti-Thatcherist kind of sentiment, a lot of rock and roll in the house. So yeah, I can see how that could have produced. You know, Patrick Jones and Nicky Wire, for sure.
Speaker 2Well, thanks. Yeah, I think, you know, yeah, like I said, it wasn't like a. I always remember this. One of our neighbours had, like, grandchildren who had went to public school up in Bromley they were from. I remember them coming back. And a couple of years later, when I was being a writer, I was, oh, what's Mark doing? Oh, he's gone off to Devon to become a writer. And I remember thinking, oh, that's. Basically, he was quite upper class. It almost seemed, oh, that's a good thing to do. Yeah. That's a, you know, like a career move, whereas I had been writing five years. No one gave a shit, you know, because I was just walking up and down Blackwood High Street. And, you know, the class differences in me saying I was going to be a writer to someone who had gone to posh school. Yes. It was astronomical. And I don't want to become a victim or anything like that, but being a writer in the Valley saying you're going to be a poet, people did think you were weird and just wanted to avoid work. Probably the same as a musician, you know. So, whereas if you can say, oh, I'm going to be a boxer or a rugby player, everyone, oh, well done. Well done. Poet? Fucking mad. You know what I mean? You're weird. So, maybe I am going to have a bit of a chip on my shoulder carried through, you know, this sense I am going to show the bastards. I am going to, you know, which I don't know, at 61, it should be gentler on my shoulder
Speaker 1now. No, no, no, no, no, no. Because it's feeding into the work. Nothing worse than those artists that get too comfortable and the work starts sucking back. So, yeah. Unfortunately, we hope that you're going to be burdened by that chip for many more years to come. Keep this good stuff coming.
Speaker 2I hope so. It feeds me, yeah. But, yeah, so I think our environment does shape, you know, perhaps our artistic creation and, yeah, because I've always wanted to, I was always inspired by Idris Davis, who wrote For the People, you know?
Speaker 1Right. I was going to ask you about that. I was going to ask about who were your influences then? Like, maybe when you started out, who were maybe still influences now? Are there any consistent ones that still influence you?
Speaker 2Yeah, quite a smattering. Like I said, I started probably going to Crosskeys College when I was about 16, 17. So, yeah, I think music was a huge influence and you might be surprised to hear this because they're not exactly on the left wing and they're not really right wing, I think. But Rush, you know, who were deemed a little bit sometimes, ooh, Ayn Rand and all that. Yeah. But I just loved the music, the fuzz pedals and the wah-wahs and the choruses and the concepts and hemispheres. And so, yeah, juxtaposed with, you know, Stiff Little Fingers, Billy Bragg. Okay. Like musical influences then. And that influenced your poetry? Right. Yeah, definitely. I think when I started and then, you know, those little, and then when I went off to university, then it's sort of, oh my God, all these literary works. So it's quite late, really, 18, 19, 20, perhaps. And I discovered the Beat Generation writers. I was going to say, I can see
Speaker 1some Ginsberg in there for sure.
Speaker 2Definitely, yes. Although Skinsberg has got a bit of a darker side, I think, sometimes as well, isn't it? Yeah. But yeah, Ginsberg, Kerouac, Emily Dickinson. I remember reading a fantastic book by. I think I knew one or two books, Ralph Ellison, and it was called Invisible Man, an amazing story of black America, essentially, and being a rebel, like your title of the album. You know, Maya Angelou, I'm trying to think of all the sort of, you know, but sort of Kerouac made writing accessible to me and made me think, oh my God, you can walk down the street, you can go up a mountain, you can write about what you feel. And that's literature. And I. Because it was always. There's always Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner or these, you know, Kingsley Amis or things. I couldn't connect with them. Esoteric, abstract stuff, yes. Yeah, on the road, you know. I can't read that now. It's a little bit adolescent, but anyway. So I think, yeah, you know, poets that sort of wanted to say something alongside, you know, sort of more nonfiction books like Frantz Fanon or Paolo Freire, you know, Freire in South America. And I think that's a really good example of the kind of pedagogy of the oppressed. What a brilliant title, you know, about how education can save us. So it was a bit of everything sort of coming in to me. And it was a pivotal moment. I remember seeing a poem called V by Tony Harrison. I don't know if you've come across. No, no. Oh, you would love it. It was called V. And it was just about him going to visit his father's grave up in Leeds. He was a Yorkshire poet, working class. And it was just about all the V. No, no. All the verses and the conflicts that existed between us and, you know, from football rivalry to class war, to world, you know, to ideologies. And it was on Channel 4 one late one night. And so, yeah, that was, oh my God, that's poetry as well. It's just called V. Wow. So a huge smattering of things, really, James. Just, yeah. And even today, I'm always rooting out new, you know, I think you've got to keep developing your map, haven't you, in life, you know? Right, right. Yeah. Who's inspiring you at the moment?
Speaker 1Oh, man. Like, just opening my, just opening the window and looking outwards, you know, I mean, that's kind of always been the way for me. Yeah. I mean, well, as you just mentioned, you know, the title of our new album, Rebel, is actually inspired, there's actually a literary connection to that. It's inspired by the book, The Rebel, by Albert Camus. Brilliant one. I fucking love that guy. He's my hero. So all of the lyrics are kind of, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. Kind of inspired by the works of Camus in the sense of literal rebellion, rebellion against the issues of our times and injustices of our times, and God knows there's a lot of them to rebel against, but also the rebelling against the absurdism of the human condition. That's why I love all that stuff. So the song on the album called The Rebel, which is one of the more chilled ones, is more about rebelling against the enemy within, the internal demons that we have to wrestle with every day. So it's the, the whole album is, yeah, inspired by that concept of literal rebellion. Rebellion and personal rebellion against the, the existential turmoil of life, of being alive, you know? So, yeah, yeah. Funny that you've just reminded me that there was a literary kind of inspiration, you know, to that record, which is a very punk rock kind of shouty, simple, you know, four chords and the truth kind of album, you know, on the surface.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's a bit more than four chords, really. It's a great little riff. So yeah, like I said, the melodies, I love how your voice takes us on different journeys sometimes. Like I said, remind me of like. Like Serge Tankian, is it from System of a Down? Yeah. Which is quite operatic, a lot of his melodies. And I sensed that a bit with you, Rage Against the Machine, definitely an influence, would you say? Yes, sure. A hundred percent. Favorite band. Brilliant. Yeah. You know, and yeah, you know, you, you, you, you're unafraid to speak your truth on that album, I think, which is, you know, like I said, it was so refreshing to hear that. I think I listened to it Friday, Saturday, I was like, oh yeah, I needed that, you know, in this age of tepid, oh, don't go there, you know? And going back to The Rebel, you know, one of my favorite books, I've got a thing here. copy of it and i i had underlined bits i don't know if you do that with books yeah yeah um because you can always go back to it because it's all these different um
Speaker 1chapters it's not an easy read that one of all of his works like that was the one that took me the longest and it was a struggle and it was i i battled on with it and by the end i was like all right i get it now but it did challenge me oh definitely
Speaker 2me too i might you might inspire me to go back and have a look at it now because yeah in a great right again he i forgot to mention albert camus i remember you know me and james would really love the camus books and you know the plague uh you know the the shortness and simplicity of the stranger yes and he wrote so many essays and he did plays
Speaker 1did he miss the first classic you know um before so many so many yeah yeah i've read pretty much all of them and um yeah i mean just what a what a visionary and died you know by by by my age he
Speaker 2was dead that's right yeah amazing when you think yeah what he achieved and the depth of his intellect and yes and he was like
Speaker 1working class boy you know from algeria you know single mother who was like was she mute or deaf or something yes that's
Speaker 2right yeah no money at all that's right and and and what was interesting i think you know he he really connected with young people which again poets or writers not many doing that these days you know particularly writers you know people rush out and buy his new book or whatever so yeah a great inspiration um yeah and it's great to think that your album has come from yeah it must be what 60 60 odd years 70 years ago that book yeah yeah trying to
Speaker 1keep the spirit alive you know yes well speaking of existentialism i'm going to try and do a clever segue now okay i'm gonna try and bring it back to uh to you and and your your amazing new book um the second part of the book yeah steers away from your your experience and thoughts of dealing with um the genocide in palestine um but it deals more with existential issues uh if i'm not mistaken it's sort of um from my reading of it sort of um talks much more into themes universal you know themes of the human condition uh from you know um death and existentialism to the simple pleasures of hobnobs dunked in tea um is that fit is that a fair
Speaker 2analysis yeah that's a good little juxtaposition i think you know uh james of the simple pleasures of life and that can sort of armor us perhaps and you know i think post-covid i talk a lot of people who've gone back to the the basics really of you know the elements almost and thinking i've really got to look after my my myself my mind and and sense of of a protection sort of thing and you know simple from a simple thing of of gratitude i never really even thought about gratitude and how it can affect your you know um mental state and your brain uh state of your brain and and and mood to see swimming which all sounds a bit new agey and i know it's been monetized to fuck these days which is that that makes me sad you know breath work oh it cost you a thousand pound you know just go up the mountain so it it's sort of these poems are about about yeah like i said the sense of trying to control because it's hard to um what can you control out there what can we control we've been talking about palestine and war uh uh it's very difficult to make change or control that yeah but our reactions to it i think and our our sort of physiology and our mental state we we've got to retain our agency over that and yes some of the things i've been talking about are the things that we've been dealing with in that the second book are about that really and you know which sort of it's about yeah it's about yes so there's a yeah saving yourself really and um protecting yourself and um yeah staying staying sane really if that's not not a simple phrase of all this overwhelmingness we've you know from the outside i had a few very very toxic relationships which which really damaged me really okay you know it was quite hard to entangle and find myself again from you know being involved with you know controlling uh sort of um uh you know people um which um i i wrote about to try and make sense again and i started seeing you know connections between you know a controlling relationship and to to a controlling governmental structure and and you know the sense of society and the person i thought oh my god these tactics they're very similar you know that people utilize to contain power and to keep people in a state of fight or flight i don't know if yeah you know yeah it's total sense to me yeah which suddenly was it was a bit of an you know yeah open my eyes a bit and um so by writing about it again try to bear witness and try to you know for other people to think that they're not alone in their own i always say that you know you do not have to put up with um these controlling coercive uh relationships where you you feel you know uh humiliated every day and embarrassed to be yourself you know um it took me you know i'm 61 now it took me a long time to get to that point i wish i knew now right then in 30 years ago but um so that it's a lot of it's a lot of grief and i'm dealing you know dealt with my losing my parents um within a year of each other in 18 19 right um and trying to you know bear you know a little testament to their you know their lives and the way they lived their lives um so yeah it it is about not you know again sounds trite but not giving up you know the antidote to dissolution idea it to me really you know what are the antidotes what makes us just give up and how can we transcend that sort of thing and and not submit really if it's a domestic uh violent control relationship or or or don trump and netanyahu you know making us afraid that we are um going to be you know destroyed or by speaking out we're going to be imprisoned etc similar tactics and it's about how can we yeah how do we survive that really i am really articulate that very well james no beautiful
Speaker 1honestly yeah it's stunning and it's such an important um thing to give to the world as well right now with everything that's going on we're all struggling to make sense of things aren't we um you know externally and internally everything is in flux right now isn't it and there's so much misinformation there's so much information as well that how do you make sense of it and it is very uh sometimes to to to stay tethered to the simple things that just make us human and get us through the day so i think the fact that you've articulated that you know through it through again you know the beautiful wordplay that in which you write i think is uh a very very um much needed thing right now for a lot of people
Speaker 2tethered that's a great word to say you're right how it's like an anchor or tethered to to the good the good things um of life that sustain us not can destroy us really i think yeah um tethered i like that word and um yeah you know by you know good good people around us and and they are beautiful things happening you know i went to in newport recently i went to something called the repair cafe you one might think amazing right so so nourishing in there and people are not trying to fucking rip you off and i took my vacuum down there and again i haven't written that poem yet but there's a there was a poem about that and thinking oh my god i'm so sick of being ripped off and everywhere and um so anyway and that human connection with someone who was fixing it you know lovely retired you know person just fixing and there you are you make a donation i thought you know it's almost like we're going back to capture something you know that we had lost and you know and then you've got the whole ai thing we'll be just handing over our cognitive agency to yes to what knows you know um that human interaction is um is so vital i think and you know because i think i'm already thinking some of your podcasts you've had sort of um mind body experts at rowan hooper that's a
Speaker 1great hoop has been on yeah yeah yeah so you
Speaker 2were interested in that side of of life as well that's sort of um 100 yeah
Speaker 1i mean that's what this podcast is it's a it's it's it's trying to do concise little hour conversations with people who are helping us to navigate um this this this crazy thing called life you know whether it's health or you know mental health or you know the arts or you know palestine or ai whatever whatever it might be um just people that can help shed a little bit of light and and you do that with a massive bonfire of uh poetic fury and rage and we love it thanks
Speaker 2i try yeah it's all like so all i can do really yeah um yeah like i said i'm too old to try and retrain my poet poetic mind to appease the sort of establishment no yeah yeah no fuck those
Speaker 1guys well i mean that there's a lot of especially in the book that you're describing well there's a lot of love a lot of humanity a lot of hope um in there as well so i mean you know it's it's a very balanced book like i said which doesn't doesn't pull any punches but i think it's uh it's also beautiful to read as well and it covers the full scope of the the human experience it's an amazing book and on that summary i'm gonna plug it once more time it's antidosis dissolution is out on october the 5th and it's available to pre-order right now i'll put a link in the show notes so you can click it and grab it straight away from there go get it you know you want to uh patrick i know i can't keep you all day i'm sure we could probably talk for another three hours but i know you've got stuff to get on with you're a wonderful gift to our culture humanity and the fighting of the good fight we appreciate you brother and long may your flame continue to burn bright my friend thank you for joining us thanks
Speaker 2james lovely to chat to you you too brother best wishes with the
Speaker 1book thank you man bye-bye patrick jones ladies and gentlemen round of applause what a lovely guy what a talented compassionate wise curious human funny and i did say stylish before top dude i really enjoyed that one i love it when it's like more of a conversation that just kind of meanders where it goes and you end up covering all sorts of complex topics and deep existential issues and palestine and the arts poetry and history and class and all this stuff just by virtue of letting the convo run wherever it runs i love that before you guys start clicking off the chat i want to remind you that patrick's latest collection of poetry is called antidotes to dissolution it is out on parthian books on october the 5th it is available to pre-order everywhere right now i strongly strongly urge you to go and grab that bad boy it's a real treat if you can't be asked to type the words in i know how people are these days you can just go straight to the show notes and click the link to pre-order right from within this episode and i'm boring myself saying it but i'm gonna keep saying it until all you freeloading motherfuckers follow this podcast it doesn't cost you anything other than a click of a button baby so please get clicking help us out and support independent media man i really hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as i did having it i'll be back next week with another episode with another awesome guest and as always in the meantime take care of yourself take care of each other and i'll see you soon
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