#85 - Russell Warfield - Can the Green Party Reform the UK?

Here was going on, welcome back to the James Kennedy Podcast, how you guys doing? I hope you guys have had a great week and I hope you're all still digging the new song "Shadows" by James Kennedy and the Underdogs, which is out now. The new album "Rebel" is scheduled for release on November the 30th, it's going to be around in no time, man. So thanks again to everybody that's pre-ordered that bad boy on vinyl. And thanks to everyone that came out to see us last week at the Patti Pavilion in Swansea, man, that was a lot of fun. Even if I was full of a cold at the time and even though I basically abooted a mic stand right into my face. But you know, if you're a punk rock band and nobody gets hurt during the show, you're not doing it right. Before we introduce today's guest, I'm going to ask you nicely once again, please give the podcast a subscribe, give it a follow, hit the star button. This thing is completely free and I don't run any advertising on it either, so if you want to help the show out, please just click those buttons. With that said, let's get down to business and bring on today's guest, because we are joined today by Russell Warfield, whose new book, The Green Socialist, explores the meteoric rise of the modern green party and what this means for the future of the left. The book is out on September 20th, so it's fresh out of the oven and I want to hear all about it. So let's get down to business and welcome onto the show, Mr. Russell Warfield. How are you doing, sir? Oh, I'm very well. Thank you for having me, James. It's a generous introduction as well. Thanks so much. Not at all, man. Thank you for being here. Maybe we should start then with. Could you give the listeners a brief overview of who you are, what sort of things you're involved in and what your connection to this particular issue is? Yeah, definitely. So I joined the Greens in the middle of the 2010s, around the 2015 election, which was for listeners of a certain age. We'll remember with the last time that the Greens had a sort of comparable surge to the one they were experiencing on the plan scheme. It was a smaller scale at the time, but it's like proportionally quite similar from the baseline they were surging from. So that was kind of in response to like the anti austerity movement of the first half of the 2010s under the coalition government. And yeah, the Greens, as a consequence of their position on that, about quadrupled their membership at the time, and I joined them then. And then I ended up working for them from 2016 to '21 in their. I was in their comms team. And the last thing I did there was I ran the comms for the London 2021 elections. So I mainly spent my time supporting the mayor of Canada, who was Sean Berry. She's now the Brighton MP. But that election was notable for also being the election in which Zach Polansky was first elected to a public office. He was. that's when he became a London Assemblyman member. So that's where I got to know him a little bit, and then last year in '25, I stayed in touch with him and a bunch of other Greens for that matter. I was. got a little voice note in spring of 2025 about a little project that he was working on, and then being pulled into his campaign team for the leadership election of 2025, and did a lot of the press and comms for that. So that's all the preamble to what ended. you know, led me to write this book in the end, and I could say a little bit about the specific impulse for the book if that would be interesting to you. Yeah, yeah, please. Yeah, well, I guess what I was. so there was always a little bit of talk about doing something that sort of chronicle the leadership campaign, because it was quite an interesting phenomenon. It's easily the most high profile leadership campaign the parties ever had had unprecedented media interest, and you know, surging membership, even just for. at that point, just for people who want to come in and vote for Zach, and that sort of thing. And one of the things that happened immediately after he won, and with the. like, attending, like, heightened media interest there was in him and the party, was it was quite. two things were quite clear to me. And the underlying one was that, like, quite a lot of the establishment press had really very little understanding of how the Green Party worked, its history, its culture, how it was different from the main parties of the UK, that sort of thing. And along with that, there was this widespread sort of assumption or belief that Zach Polanski represented this sort of, like, really violent, ruptuous break from the parties, recent, and deeper past, which I think was a misreading, basically. And that's what the book's about, really. It's sort of trying to argue that Polanski's leadership is really a product of the party's longer history, and there's a much. There's a much stronger story of continuity to be told about how Polanski ended up being the leader of the Greens, and there is a story of how he's some sort of break from its form of purpose. So you've really been in there, then you've seen the inner workings through that whole period, which you're describing in the book. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I've seen some highs and lows. I mean, more than my proudest contributions was, of course, I was there for the 2017 general election, where I played a pivotal role in halving the Greens vote share on that occasion. So, which are under Corbin's high point, obviously. So, yeah, I've sort of seen the high and low ebbs of the Greens over the last 10 years. Interesting, man. Yeah, I mean, I've been a member since about 2015, I think, and just before the lockdown, I was actually interviewed by Anthony Slaughter, you know, the leader of the Welsh Greens, on their YouTube channel. And one of the things we talked about in that conversation was the need to be felt at the time to address the popular misconception that too many people had at the time. That the Green Party was a one-issue party. Yeah. You know, they had nothing to say about housing or employment or immigration or any of those things, that they were essentially kind of out-of-a-touch talking about abstract things like the environment heaven forbid, which was then, as it is now, you know, completely untrue. So it's beautiful to see that in just a short few years, that's totally turned around that, you know, more and more people are really getting the message now that the left alternative is no longer Labour, it is the Green Party. And it's super interesting to know that during that time period, you know, you've actually been deep within the machinery. Almost like a transition. Yeah. Well, I mean, you've put your finger on one of the key, one of the real, one of the foremost manifestations of the thing I was talking about there, which was like the accusation against Polanski that, you know, he sort of ditched the environment, right? But, you know, this imagination that people had that the Greens were this sort of like really narrowly interested, just sort of like quite traditional conservationist group, almost apolitical, basically. I think that's one of, you know, a really, really good example of the sort of thing that like Polanski's been able to transcend, and it's not for what previously just trying that they, that that hasn't happened, it's big, you know, there's not some previous version of the party where it was basically just an apolitical extension of the World Wildlife Fund. And, you know, if you go, so like if you, the most recent parallel, which we've just both swallve talked about implicitly of like the Surgeon 2015, you know, that was under the conditions of there being an insurgent anti austerity position for the party, which had little ostensible connection to the environment at service level. And, you know, if going as far back into the history of the party, if you want to go, the leadership of like the 70s and the 80s always articulated the ecological crises of our time. As being contextualized by broader political and economic crises and structures, right? So like if you take a figure like Jonathan Porott, so he's, he's a, the party didn't have conventional leadership in in these days, but for the sake of simplicity, we'll call him an early party leadership figure. He wrote a book, a seminar book called Seeing Green in the 80s, I think it was 1984 was published. The Caroline Lucas site, it is like an entryway into green politics. And even as far back as that, like Jonathan Porott was like drawing a distinction between green thinking and environmentalism, right? Which was that, you know, you could conceivably be an environmentalist that is like concerned about the state of the pond at the end of your road or the park or whatever and what to seek to preserve it and conserve it and et cetera, et cetera. But not necessarily go any, you know, delve any deeper into the root causes of why environmental degradation is happening a systemic level. And that was the distinction he was all drawing between the green political tradition and certain manifestations of environmentalism. And that's always been like never stated position of the Greens and like, you know, Natalie, Natalie Bennett, the leader in the first half of the 2010s. She, I spoke to her for the book and like one of the things she was told me about was like she was just like desk, she was trying to get out of that straight jacket quite desperately, you know, like she was saying like, I was anytime I was on the telly, I was always like the backdrop was always like a recycling tip or like a seagull covered in oil or whatever. And one of like what she sites as being like one of the real breakthrough moments of her period of leadership is when she went on, I think it was radio 4, it doesn't really matter. She went on a mainstream new current affairs program to talk for an hour about something that wasn't ostensibly connected to the environment. I think it was like welfare reform or something like that. And yeah, I was one of the first time the Greens managed to do that. And I think, you know, it's that Zach has been successful in doing that and, you know, sort of contextualizing the environmental crisis within the broader political offer of the Greens is something that many of his predecessors have tried to do but have not been permitted or not been able to do for whatever reason. But what do you think then underlies the success that Zach has had because it's being it's been spectacular to watch hasn't it's been really extraordinary and it really feels like this time is different. What do you think underlies that is it is it just because labor have been so horrifically traitorously bad or is there more to it I'm assuming that there's more context to it's a bit of both in my view, I mean like it's completely is you know the um. The prevalent like sort of political conditions are definitely would definitely necessary but not completely sufficient for for plan ski so like obviously the fact that labor and a starmer had, you know, pursue this electoral strategy of like trying to preserve and win back reform curious photos or actual reform voters. And whilst just leaving well not even leaving space to their left but actively alienating their left and sneering at them smearing them et cetera et cetera created this like vacuous space into which something was going to move obviously and it was and it was the Greens under plan ski but it is also important to remember now because it is easy to forget that there was you know a good full year after the 2024 election way might reasonably expect the Greens who had also broken through on to parliament from that general election. and going from one MP to four, which for the Greens was absolutely historic that you might expect them to take a step forward on the national stage and compete a bit more forcefully with reform, which didn't really happen. The Greens carried on their then current polling levels for quite a while. And this was, you know, and Stammer was perfectly unpopular at that point as well, and he had really sort of embroiled himself in all sorts of problems over the Gaza genocide. That was the height of his like problems over the Gaza genocide, obviously, and terrible things he was saying about that on the position they'd taken labor into on that question. And the Greens were failing to capitalize on that. So I think that, you know, what plans he was able to do as a figure was basically what he, you know, straightforwardly promised to do in his leadership election, which was to offer this more eco-populist platform, basically, which was to observe the successes of what far-right projects and parties were doing, like reform in the UK, but also across all the continent and most advanced western economies, basically, which was to create a more insurgent political programme, which was more ready to talk in terms of like class conflict and antagonisms and martial resentment towards, you know, among a broad coalition of the popular classes against a small number of elites, basically. So mirroring in a broad way a lot of the storytelling and framing of the far-right where they demonised migrants, trans people, Muslims or the rest of it, but marshalling a lot of that justified resentment that's in the population towards a different set of root causes, basically. One hundred percent, yeah. And I think it really does help as well that Zack is such a personal poor charismatic person as well, who's greater what he does. He's brilliant on the media. He's relatable, he's honest, people like him, you know, and of course, you know, queued us to the rest of the team behind the scenes as well as the campaign, because I feel that already, even though the Greens aren't a party in power, they're already influencing the parties that are in power. You can see Labour now sliding its way back over to the left with his tail between his legs, trying at least performatively to pretend that they're a party of the people. They've got this new guy now, Andy Burnham, who is basically, you know, Labour's attempt at a Zack Palanski, you know, he got this younger guy, you know, he's here, he's cool, he's a DJ man, you know, goes to gigs. And any of the policies that come out of that attempt to try and claw back some of the left wing credentials is going to be as a direct result of the popularity of the Greens. So even without being in power, I think they're still moving the needle of the parties that are in power in a direction that we all need. But I'd love to get your thoughts on that. I mean, are you reading that the same way that I am a you? I do see Andy Burnham as basically Labour's response to Zack Palanski. Yeah, absolutely. And I think not just Zack Palanski is a figure, but also, you know, a growing number of just like hard electoral facts that sort of unfolded over the period of his, the first year of his leadership. So like chief among them would be, I mean, like obviously, well, actually, let me take this back to the beginning of his leadership. So like, mere days before, um, Palanski announced that he was going to run for leader of the Green Party by a complete coincidence. So it was reported in the Guardian from an anonymous Labour minister, I believe. Um, this is pretty close to a direct quote. It's from memory. So go look it up for anyone that's interested. But like they said, we're it's that this was then like, Labour were really not doing very well on the polls and all sorts of, but they already knew they're like, things were not going well, I understand them basically. And then a Labour minister with quoted to have said, we're so lucky that the Green Party is shit. Because if they, if they had any sort of like charismatic or populist leader, we'd be like another 10 points down the grounds. Yeah. Yeah. So like, um, and then interested. Yeah, it's sort of on on to the stage sort of walks of Plansky. And then yeah, obviously, once he's leader, you know, you see that surging the membership, surging the polls, that would have like spooked Labour to a degree. But I think what the really, really key things were were the twin shocks of the Gorton and Denton by election. So that was the Parliamentary by election in February of this year, where Greens won their first ever Parliamentary by election and pushed both Labour and the Conservatives into third and fourth place respectively, the Conservatives lost their deposit in that election. I think it was the first time since the 1940s that Labour overtories hadn't come first or second in a Parliamentary race. So it was a really unprecedented result. And then in May, the local elections of this year, the Labour lost four times as many votes to the Greens as they did to reform. So I think that in particular really put the right on the wall for anyone with half a brain in Labour that like continue, you couldn't, you couldn't justify whatsoever continuing to pursue the policy, which they, uh, the electoral strategy, which they were pursuing, which was to try and attract, you know, votes from the people back from reform or stopped them going to reform. They were, you know, they were hemorrhaging support to the left, weren't winning it back from their right. And the, you know, the electoral blood bath of that was like completely evident. They were actually, you know, because the other, like the wider context of that problem as well for them as well as Labour was that, you know, they lost Scotland years ago, obviously, um, the, the Red Wall famously crumbled in 2019. And you can obviously have a conversation about how useful that is as a concert at the Red Wall, but, you know, we all know sort of broadly what was meant by that. They'd lost a huge, you know, the Muslim vote had completely gone because of Gaza, obviously. Um, so it's actually really hard after the main local elections to, for them to, to articulate what their social base in the country was at all. They'd lost graduates, they'd lost, you know, they'd lost everything, basically. Like even as terrible as a result was for the Tories, you could still sort of, you know, as a, as a sort of like a fringe party, you could still see what their base was, which was basically pensioners in the south, like retired pensioners with property in the southeast, basically. Um, and, you know, you could build from that and, you know, consolidate it. Um, for Labour, it just really wasn't clear where they were going to re, um, reconstitute their, their voting coalition. So, um, oh, yeah, in, in that respect, I think that is, like unquestionably, the product of plans to give it, like Labour were forced to just re, like clear the way for a figure like Burnham specifically, who was able to try and reconstitute their progressive length, basically. One hundred percent. Yeah. Well, do you feel that another does change the nature of the game plan for the Greens in the sense that, are there main electoral opponents still going to be the traditional main parties of, you know, Labour and the Tories? Or is there a very real threat from these parties, such as, you know, reform, restore, I don't know, re furnish you know, whatever the other ones are, these need to pop up every two minutes. You know, is that where the focus needs to be? Or is the main opponent really still, you know, the Goliath parties that have been in power forever? Yeah, that's a really good question. So I think like, yeah, there is, yeah, there's still a macro-freightening to politics at the moment, which is like a round insurgency versus establishment. I think that's completely remains intact. But I think like on the question of like, you know, to the extent to which like Burnham is, you know, like we're saying, sort of trying to reconstitute its progressive coalition, I think that like, you know, it is to the credit of everyone that's been involved in making this happen that we now have a sitting prime minister that is at least at the level of rhetoric, you know, committing to a break from faturism, which is a genuinely, you know, never really expected to see that happen. Certainly not this year, potentially not even in my lifetime, really. So that's something quite huge. But like I think for the Greens basically, like the gap between rhetoric and reality is only going to continue to grow in labor basically. And I think like if you see, you know, the rapid fire, sort of announcement of policies that Burnham undertook over the summer, all of which were like decent political positioning, like was a good piece of strategic political comms to sort of just signal these on the side of the public against big business or that sort of thing. But like if you, you know, the sort of policy prescriptions on offer were not really going to match up to the structural problems that the economy is facing. So like the example I always saw site was like the subscriptions thing. So like obviously, yeah, it's annoying if you've signed up to something they can't get out of and five pounds goes out of your account. Every month, but it's not as annoying as half your income going to pay someone else's mortgage, right? And like another huge chunk of your income going to war companies that are just flooding the warways with sewage and all the rest of it charging you more and more and more for the for the privilege. So like these are really, really big structural problems in the British economy, which require going up against really, really established protected vested interests as well. And I think that like the, you know, the reality of like Labour's willingness to do that with a parliamentary Labour party that we should remember has also been cherry picked and gerrymandered by the preceding Starmer project to be basically the most right wing Labour parliamentary party of all time with very little appetite for, you know, sort of revolutionary reforms of this kind. It's going to be a very big political job. And I think that that gap between rhetoric and reality is going to widen and crucially, people are just not going to feel the attendant rise in their living standards. And it's a really volatile, restless electorate at the moment. And I think that we'll be seeing, you know, the greens have it, we'll have a lot of space to maneuver in the coming years, regardless of how Labour tried to position themselves. Amen. Well, it seems as if everything's going very well at the moment, which is great to see. But we'd hate the winning streak to slow down at any point. So what other potential hurdles do you see that could potentially hinder the wonderful momentum that we're seeing at the moment for the greens? Well, it's what we were just discussing. And like in all honesty, obviously, like, you know, Labour have correctly identified the actual electoral problem that they were experiencing. basically, which is that they were just sneering at everyone to their left. And they've been forced to correctly pick a successor to Stama, who is moving left rather than punching left, basically. And that obviously presents an immediate term, some political problems for the Greens. And I think, like, you know, in terms of that hurdle being cleared, I mean, the Hobern and some pancreas by election is underway at the time of speaking. And, you know, for that to sort of fall in in sort of what passes as Burnham's honeymoon is potentially, you know, time will tell, but it might, it might, we might come to see that as unfortunate timing for the Greens in the sort of seat where you might, you might reasonably expect the Ebon flow of support to return back to the Greens over the coming years there anyway. It's a very green, curious seat, but like, yeah, it's the Burnham Bounce as you meet it hurdle, really. But I mean, the, what I would say about that whole quote, quote, problem, right, is that like one of the things I found when I was writing the book, really, where some, whilst it is obviously the case that like in terms of just like maximising the raw national vote of the Greens, Stama was obviously a more favourable Prime Minister in just pure political calculation in that regard for the Greens, because it was just so deeply unpopular, just hemorrhaging support to the Greens, etc. What it was very hard to see a path, because it was that unpopular, it was very hard to see a route through the next general election where you could avoid fresh becoming Prime Minister, basically, because, you know, Labour were losing everywhere they, you know, they were just hemorrhaging support everywhere they used to have, quote, quote, strongholds or quote, quote, quote, safe seats. There's still a fair amount of, you know, geographical spaces in the country where the Greens are realistically unlikely to have put themselves in a position to take the seat by 2029. So like the best, yeah, I was struggling to conceive of a narrative where, but where I like, the Greens could be playing a significant role in a broadly centre-left parliament. That's less true under Burnham, and I think like the baseline assumption of what the Greens will achieve is still largely the same under Burnham as it was under Stama, which is like a block of something between, I know this is going to be a broad bracket I'm about to give, but something between like 20 to 100 MPs, right? Depending on local conditions and how popular the Prime Minister, you know, the popularity of the Government at the time of the election or that sort of thing. And it's a much more, you know, a much more preferable state of affairs for that block of Green MPs to be pressuring and improving and holding to account a Labour-led centre-left parliament than it was to be one, you know, block of among many blocks of centre-left opposition party under a reform government, right? Which would have, which would have already to diminish the role that the Greens could play in political life. So, all of which to say really, like what looks like a hurdle, you know, is potentially reconcilable with the Greens longer term political ambitions in the long run and could give us, you know, that gives us the root to, like, actually blocking forage at the next general election, and whilst retaining the ability for the Greens to hold a really prominent role in British political life as well. Beautiful. Yeah, brilliantly put, man. I mean, blocking forage has got to be priority number one for everybody with a soul at this point, isn't it? Well, I know I can't keep you forever and would both die in a cold right now, and you're going to get a power nap in, because I can imagine how busy you are right now. What could you say to those people listening to this who are still on the fence about the Green Party and the policies of the Green Party? And I know you're not a politician and you're not here in that capacity right now, but you do know the party very well. So, what could you tell those people listening to this right now who still might be undecided about where the Green Party stands on issues such as, you know, welfare and employment, housing, and crime and immigration, and all those issues that too many people unfortunately feel are only being taken seriously by people like Nigel forage and reform? Well, I will give you an evasive politicians answer to this in the first instance, actually, but first of all, drawing attention to the fact that the Greens, unlike the establishment parties in this country, are a very much differently constituted and structured party, which means that joining the party means you have a genuine democratic stake in shaping the policies of the party. So, the Green Party conference, which is coming up in a couple of weeks, is the actual sovereign decision making body of the party. What gets passed there by members is actually the position that's held by the party. It's neither advisory nor just as sometimes, well, quite often, increasingly commonly the case in Labour just flatly ignored by its leadership. It is actually the decision making body of the party, and that's conducted on a one-member, one-vote basis, right? So, anyone can propose policy. The membership votes on the privatisation of hearing that policy at conference. Anyone can vote on the policy if it passes. That is the policy. And that sort of democratic principle is just like, you know, runs to the whole structure of the party. The other notable example of this, like, quite typical at the moment because of the by-election is that every election is subject to open selections. So, even an incumbent MP or councillor has no automatic entitlement to running for their seat again. Every time they need to seek a fresh mandate from their local party, local members get to choose who represents them every single time an election comes up, basically. So, you know, all of these things are like the primary, I think, quality of the Green Party, regardless of any particular individual policy that is, that's on the sort of policy books. But yeah, the policy offer basically has always sort of historically been ensuring that we sort of decentralised the profit motive from the economy and ensure that there is investment in the public realm and create an economy that is, you know, gives everyone what they need to have a good life whilst remaining within ecological limits, basically. That's the sort of the prevailing vision of the Greens. And the interesting thing as well to say about it is that, you know, I think that that has its most like sort of timely expression. And we've already alluded to this, but like the first half of the 2010s, when all of the, you know, the pre-established policy platform of the Greens had a really natural expression and articulation in the anti-asteurity movement, what the coalition government at the time of just like, yeah, just savage cuts to the public realm and then the public sector, what the, you know, the Green Policy Platform was a, was a natural corrective to that, basically, and that they have found a really, really popular basis in the country. And I think they're like, you know, if you look through, you know, recent decades of any polling on this issue, you'll find that like the Green position on so many things is like the natural preference of a huge proportion of the public. And what holds the public back usually, or has done historically, is the belief for a lot of the party's history, just justified, but the party can't win where they live or nationally, basically. And I think that like what has happened over successive surges of the party and the, you know, the waves of electoral success that it's had is that it's really corroded that belief in the public that it can't win. People can now see that it is a serious electoral proposition that keeps, you know, winning and winning. A lot of, over the last sort of five, ten years, most local elections, there's been a great number of local elections, they've literally doubled their number of counsellors every time, basically, like the growth has been like exponential in terms of elected representatives. And yeah, so that sort of chips away at that sort of nagging feeling that it's a wasted vote. I've never said it's a wasted vote myself, but you know, what people mean. Yeah. So, yeah. So I think that like, yeah, it's a platform of public ownership, common ownership, and good investment in the public and civic realm. And yeah, to try and meet everyone's needs, eradicate poverty without smashing through ecological limits. Amen to all of that. I mean, who doesn't want all of that stuff? Well, I've got one last question before I let you go. We're living in perilous times right now with some pretty formidable enemies and the stakes are quite high, aren't they? Are you hopeful with everything up against us right now? Are you hopeful that a better future is possible? Better future is always possible. Absolutely. I am a hopeful person. I think that like with not, you know, what we've seen over the last year, basically, through Plansky's leadership and outside of it is just how quickly things that seem nearly inevitable become nearly impossible. And the opposite as well, you know, like we're quite quick to forget stuff that happened during COVID, right? As well as like everything, you know, so many things that we are told are literally impossible suddenly become completely inevitable when there's a crisis on the table and then suddenly the political will has found. And I know it's a cliche that it's often repeated by figures of the left that there's always money for war and never money for hospitals on all the rest of it. But all of these things are a question of political will and when the political will has found solutions can follow. And I think that the volatility and the unpredictability of the last few years means should be a caution against fatalism and despair because many other features still remain available to us. Love that. That's the promo clip I'm going to use right there. Russell, thank you so so much, Mayor. I know I've got to let you go through a busy man. We have got also remind people that there is a book coming out. The book is called The Green Socialist, Zach Polansky and the Battle for Britain's Future. future by Russell Warfield. It is out on September 20th and it is available everywhere. I'll put a link into the show notes as usual so you can grab it straight from there and whether you're already on the green side or whether you're really, really not, either way, I would really recommend that you check it and then make your own mind up. You can also follow Russell's updates and further work on X at Russell Warfield and on Instagram at RM Warfield. Russell has been an amazing chat. Thank you so much for taking time out to speak with us today, man. Best wishes with the book and everything coming up up the green. Lovely to see you James. Have a great day. You too, brother. Enjoy that power nap. You deserve it. Russell, Warfield, ladies and gentlemen, let's hear it for him. Now you couldn't see that interview but he was wearing the most badass pair of glasses I've ever seen. I need to find out where he's getting his glasses from. Also at one point during the interview I was waving my hands around so wildly that I smashed the headphones off my head as well. So this cold is really dismantling me as a person right now. But that was a great chat. I really enjoyed it. I hope you did too. If you did, please hit that star button. And don't forget that I'll support all of these episodes in full on YouTube. Not that anybody really listens to it there. But it's a great place to get involved in the comments section and let us know what your thoughts are on these issues as well. The brand new book by Russell Warfield. The Green Socialist, Zach Palanski and the Battle for Britain's Future is out on September the 20th. If you're interested in the recent history of the Green Party, where the party is at and where it's going. You need to get your hands on a copy of the book. As I said, the link is in the show notes. You can just click it straight from there. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. Thanks for listening. And I will see you next week to get yourselves.