#841: Quitting Banking For Theatre & Why S’pore Isn’t Being Honest About Race | Shaza Ishak

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And he's also in the media and the arts. I think it's going to be a very exciting, it's going to be very charged. This episode. Yeah, it's going to be very charged. And he's going to flip the balance of the racial breakdown in this room. You talk like that's such a foreign thing in an podcast. It happens all the time. Rishi is always here. That's true. It's really healthy to put you in your place once in a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm very, I'm an ally. I'm an ally. So yeah, no worry, no worry. Prove it. And the person asking Terrence to prove his ally ship is Shaza Ishak who is the executive and artistic director of theater Ika Matra. Welcome Shaza. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. Yeah, good to have you on. I mean Terrence alluded to the name of the upcoming production that you're all are staging charged. But before that, I mean just tell us what what keeps you busy right now. Well, charged. Charged. Yeah. Yeah. This was a production for 15 years ago. And so we are in rehearsals. We are bumping in, well, setting up in a couple of weeks. So this has taken up every breathing space of ours. Yeah. 15 years when it was first stage. Yeah. 2010. 2010. So actually, yeah, like when it was first stage, well, like what is the decision process to take something that was staged 15 years ago, even even before you, you know, became artistic director of theater Ika Matra, well, I was the decision process on wanting to take something from the person and staging it today. So I've always felt that works in Singapore, especially like place, they don't have enough of a run. They don't have long enough of a run, not enough people have watched it. In 2010, the company was also much, much smaller. And the audience was at the drummer center black box for the first run was a week. So that's about 120 people per night. And it was maybe six or seven shows. And now we're doing it at the Nian Kong City Theater at Funan. And that's about 300 plus a night, 340, you know. And so I'm thinking about the longevity of place, the amount of work, the amount of effort that people and artists specifically put into getting a play to happen. And for it to just exist for a few days to me is such an injustice. So that's what to me, I've been waiting for the right moment to do a charge actually. So 15 years on, this is when I felt like, you know what, like it's time. So what's the log line of charge for people who might might not be aware? What is the story about? If it was just a sentence that I had to encapsulate it, it would be race and racism in the army. Singapore army specifically. And if you look at the army or any small space as a microcosm of society, then it is talking about race and racism in the society itself. But was there a particular thing that's happening now, or maybe in the past years that makes you and your team think that, you know, you mentioned that the right time. What is right about this time for a play like this? I feel like the conversation around race and racism. I don't know if you guys agree, but I think it has changed a lot. Definitely 15 years ago, a lot of our existence as a company, as data, come at you as a company that's seen as ethnic minority that was always questioned. For example, they were always like, why does an ethnic minority, the company need to exist? Why can you just be a Singapore data company? Why can you just talk about everybody's experience? Why must you talk about your specific or niche experience? But I think now people would find it a lot harder to defend that stance. So that's one thing. Second thing is, I feel like since 2020, the conversation around race has become a lot more nuanced as well. I feel like Black Lives Matter that happened in the US, maybe the vocabulary has trickled down to Singapore. So there is that. And I think the generations now, the new generation, hasn't watched charged before. And I think that's quite exciting. I want to see how they feel about the conversation. I want to see what they can contribute to the conversation as well. So I wouldn't say that particularly something has happened in this last couple of years. I think so much has happened in the last 15 years. So this would be quite an interesting reflection. So not because of Trump or anything? Not necessarily, but he is again, to me, Trump isn't just one bad person. Trump is like a manifestation of much larger issues. But that's it about ethnic minority theatre. Disproduction, it's multiracial in terms of the cast, even the crew. Also, right? Like I understand, it was originally written by Chinese. Yes, right. And the director is, this time it's more much further. Okay. So can you clarify like for people who maybe don't like who would be asking the question, why do you call yourself an ethnic minority theatre company as supposed to Singaporean theatre company? I feel like what is special about us is that we present local and global issues through the ethnic minority perspective. A big part of our remit is putting ethnic minority stories on stage, putting ethnic minority artists, arts managers, collaborators in the space as well, finding pipelines, because we don't just do productions, we do development programs as well. And so for charged specifically, it was a Chinese man who wrote it and he's still collaborating with us on it. And I think that is quite exciting as well because wouldn't you say that Chinese people are also part of that conversation, you know, like, or rather that they need to be part of the conversation. Oh, for sure. There is an answer number one, L.I. I would totally agree. This is fun, man. Yeah, you can go quickly. Yeah, don't we have been trained a lot by you, you know, he does this every day. I feel like that is this myth or that ethnic minority stories or ethnic minority issues should be discussed or tackled by ethnic minorities alone. But the people who perpetuated are not ethnic minorities, right? So I think this is one way of bringing more people into the space, one way of getting all of us as artists to reflect and then as audiences to reflect as well. So I don't see that just because you're an ethnic minority company that you can't include everyone's perspectives into that space. Yeah. But is there a way that maybe you choose stories to be told? Like, is there a criteria? You know, I feel like that's one of the hardest parts of my job because I feel like I want to include every story, every story that I feel isn't represented on stage enough, every story that I feel hasn't been discussed enough. And so for me, what I try to do is to create a space that people are able to create in. So not just that's why to me, it's not, it's not, our productions are not the most important thing about us. It's the kind of opportunities that we create for people. It's the kind of development opportunities that we create for artists because they can create with us because we might feel like a safe space because when ethnic minority theater company, we know you don't have to justify the issues that you go through, right? And I think that's really important because for me as well, this is why I stayed at Akamatra for this long. Or rather, why I started at Akamatra because I felt like I never had to justify why I felt all the feelings that I've been feeling growing up as a really angsty teenager. And so with that space, people are creating and then where they create how they create with whom they create that's up to them. If we are able to hold those stories, if we are able to afford to produce their plays, amazing, but productions are incredibly expensive to mount. So there's only for us, for example, our season looks like maybe three productions a year, four, if you're lucky, depends on whether we get commissioned as well. But for the most part, we tried to empower artists to produce their works themselves with us or with other theater companies. But you mentioned that you were an angsty teenager. I mean, you've just been very academic with your approach to creativity also with your masters and a number of fellowships. I read somewhere that you're the youngest fellow in the history of the Eisenhower fellowship program. So there's that academic side of you, but was it something from young that you decided, I want to tackle this issue? Or like, what was your journey into. you know, being so vocal about issues that minorities face? - I don't know why I was hyper aware, because I don't think that my experiences are just my own. I think a lot of ethnic minorities have faced some type of racism from when they were young, but I was just incredibly intense about it. You know, so for example, when I was in primary school, I remember we were having recess and that there were kids from the Chinese class from mentoring class who ran out. And then they started saying, "Although it's too big, we should all eat pork." It's. - What is too big? - "Alwa, the God, I will go." - "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." And I was like, "What is happening?" So I remember we were like really tiny kids, okay, like primary one or primary two. And we were like, "What is happening?" So I confronted them and these kids who were also my age. Obviously, we were like seven or eight. And they were like, "Oh no, our Lausche said that, "we shouldn't hang out with you guys "because you guys are really bad influence." And I'm like, at that age, obviously, I didn't understand what was happening. Truly, I did not understand. But all I remember feeling was that we couldn't defend ourselves because we didn't know how to defend ourselves. I didn't know what to say. If you felt that way, I don't know how I can argue with that. So I remember that feeling of helplessness and then 9/11 also happened. And I remember just not just in Singapore, but when I traveled, there was just a lot of racist, Islamophobic feelings that were targeted towards us and me and us. And I felt like, "Oh my God, I just really, "really need vocabulary for this." I felt like whenever I spoke about it to people or in spaces, it felt like we had to make ourselves small and less of an issue because if we bring up the issue, then we had the problem, right? Yeah, so I think that's why I have been so keen to find words for it. I still don't have all the words, but I think that's my pursuit to find words for myself and then hopefully to share it with other people as well through my work at Eka. I see. What happened when you were seven? Yeah, I know. That's crazy. I know that I can't afford a seven or eight, yeah. Do you remember? Probably football, yeah. It's a ball. Very nice. So I mean, the fact that memory is so stark means that after that, you were set on your quest. I would say that that was the start and then maybe 9/11 made it even more intense because I feel like at that point, I remember the language we were using. I remember the language that the ministers were using around, say, calling ourselves moderate Muslims, things like that might seem maybe innocuous at that point, but it's actually asking us to defend something that we didn't, we didn't do, you know? Or asking us to defend our religion, asking us to defend our existence or our ability to live harmoniously with other ethnicities because of something that happened, you know, so far away. The ripples are so intense, so real, but I don't think we talk about it enough. And I feel like when I do try to bring it up at that point, it was kind of shut down or at least I felt like it was shut down. And the only time when I felt that I was able to speak about it freely was when I started getting involved in theater. So that's the first shift when I was 17. So I thought I was an angsty kid, right? Because I felt like there was so many things that I wanted to talk about, but nobody wants to talk about it. Nobody feels like it's big enough of an issue. And then theater happened and I was like, "Ah, this is where my friends are." So that's where I found that space. As a form of expression, like speaking yourself? As a form of expression, as a place to not be so scared or like think that other people don't feel the same way as you do, which I think can be quite alienating for a lot of people as well, if you don't feel like there are people who can justify how you feel. You know? But art as a form of expression versus activism or something to create the change. What made you hone in on theater and art as your medium? I would say maybe the first and foremost, it probably was serendipity. Like when I just started getting involved with theater, I found it so it had such a big impact on me. You know, I felt finally that, "Oh, okay, I don't feel like I want to leave this country as fast as I can." Oh, yeah. So maybe you want to stay in Doomo? You made me want to do more work. You made me feel like there was work to be done rather than that nobody was ever going to do the work. Yeah, because I wasn't really exposed to the arts until I was 16, 17, 17, really. And the Eka at that point, when this was before I was part of the company, they had this interterated competition. I was involved in it. And after that, I basically forced them to include me in the company because I just kept hanging around their old office. And I would sit in the office and I would listen to all the, you know, eka-matera people of that time, talking about race, racism, Islamophobia, works that they wanted to do. They were arguing with each other about things that were happening. And I was like, "Oh, my God, I want to be a part of this." So then I felt like the sort of impact that the place they were producing at that point, the sort of impact that it had on me, the sort of impact that I saw they had on the audience. I was like, "Yeah, okay, this is something I think I can do." And I stuck with it. But the interesting thing is that you had feelings or maybe I shouldn't be in Singapore, maybe I should leave for one doing thing. But data actually made you want to stay and feel like you had a job to do here. Yeah, I felt like I was very clear. I think there was purpose to stay. Because I felt I feel so deeply about this issue. I've always felt so deeply about this issue since I was really young. Now there is a place or a platform or a tool, which is data or the company. If you so choose to see it that way. And I felt like, "Okay, let's see how far I can go with this. Let's see what sort of impact that I can have." But around that time, I mean, media right now is still not seen as the career of choice. But back then, I would imagine it was even more extreme. Like, was there any thoughts for you personally or friends and family saying, "Oh, what are you doing? There's no future." Sometimes even till today, people are asking me when I'm going to get a real job. And I. That's. That's the. I think that's. The sentiment people have about the arts, right? It's not serious. It's not real enough for them, maybe. But I don't mind. It's okay. You should aim your fellowship. - You go fellowship. - Yeah, exactly. You go scholarship. Yeah, that's right. But even back then, there's one thing about your passion. But you were just very optimistic that you could make change. I think I'm quite a pessimistic person, actually. So I think it came from my pessimism that I just threw my pessimism. I wanted to be with people who were quite similar, maybe. Yeah. And I felt like if there was. Anything that we could do, there's one small way that we could do it. This was a way that we could do it in a way that we like. Because obviously, I like theatre, I like the arts. I believe in its impact. I don't think it's going to solve things overnight. I don't think it is the answer. But I think it is a way of making people reflect. It's a way of making people come together. And I do like to make audience members feel quite uncomfortable or by saying themselves reflected or seeing situations or issues that they are not privy to reflected on stage. I think that's really important. I think discomfort is really important. It does sound like there must have been a fork in the road for you at that point of time, when thinking about. I believe you were in a corporate world even before joining theatre and all. There's an element of, yes, there's a lot of injustice. I want to address in the world, but I could join the system and change things within. Or I could take the hard road light and fight against the system. And what was your decision process in arriving at. OK, I'm going to take that harder road. So, weirdly enough, I just thought about this morning that charged was the reason why I came back to the theatre scene again. And from finance level, all of all the issues. I was working at an investment firm, and I would say, compared to the arts back then, I was doing a lot more financially better in the investment firm, of course. But, while I was working there, I went to watch the 2010 version of charged. And as I was sitting in the audience, and I was feeling all my feelings, and I was crying my heart out because I felt a lot for what was happening on stage. And I was looking around at the audience and seeing how they were affected by it. I really had that moment where it immediately clicked to me. I really needed to continue. I needed to get back to this. So, the means you were involved in theatre, then you took a break. Yes, big, yes. And you went into corporate finance, you know? Or then you came back. So, how long were you in the company? Just a couple of years. Oh. And then, you know, making too much money didn't feel comfortable. What an uncomfortable life. That was also, was it finance, yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I also took the hard role line, and then worked with you. What sort of finance are we talking about? I investment bank, and that kind of thing. So, you all are part of the problem of. We were. But, you all are cross-corrected. Yes, correct. But, so, the investment firm situation also felt deeply uncomfortable for me. Saya rasa saya membuat banyak bercinta. Terima kasih saya berhenti dengan orang yang membuat bercinta. Kemudian saya datang ke rumah, saya berguna, saya berguna. Saya rasa ini sangat penting. Bukan kesalahan yang sangat penting. Saya takkan menggunakan kesalahan yang saya rasa teruk. Saya takkan membuatkan kerja saya. Saya tak rasa ada kerja yang berguna. Saya hanya berguna, semua orang memiliki bercinta. Saya takkan mencari itu, tapi saya cuma mencari saya. Ini bukan saya yang akan terakhir. Tapi ada orang yang membuatkan kerja saya, saya akan membuatkan kerja saya. Dan kemudian itu, itu untuk kata. -Kamu tidak akan berdua dengan kerja? -No, saya harap orang lain yang membuatkan kerja. -Tidak ke Eka Matra. -Makafi? -Kanau kebiasaan. -Ya. -Kaat kenapa itu sangat kecil? -Ia rasa. Saya tak rasa saya boleh mempunyai untuk berhenti. Saya rasa seperti yang terbaik untuk berhenti. Saya tak rasa. Dan ini adalah sesuatu yang saya juga mencari. Saya tak rasa ia hanya terbuka. Saya rasa ia sangat berbicara ke Eka Matra. Pada masa itu, ia berbicara yang membuatkan kerja yang. Saya rasa ia takkan berbicara untuk berhenti. Mereka yang membuatkan kerja yang mencari itu, ia takkan membuatkan kerja saya. Saya rasa seperti itu, saya berbicara ke Eka Matra. Dan dari masa itu, pertama kembali sekarang, sebelum kita mulai berhenti, berbicara berbicara, ada perkara yang berlaku. Apa yang berlaku? Bersiap kelihatan dan kelihatan. Kelihatan, saya rasa seperti. kita berbicara terbuka, terdapat lebih banyak. Pergi yang saya mencari, ada perkara yang mencari itu, ada perkara yang mencari itu, yang mencari itu, yang mencari itu, mereka mencari itu, dan kembali ke mereka, ketika perkara yang mencari itu, kerana itu membuatkan kerja yang mencari itu, ia berbicara. Tapi kita membuatkan kerja yang mencari itu, kita berbicara. Jadi, jika ada perkara yang mencari itu, yang ini boleh berbicara terbuka, berbicara terbuka, terbuka, terbuka. Jadi, saya rasa itu berlaku banyak kerja, kerana saya tidak berlaku, terbuka untuk menghantar kata-kata yang saya menghantar, saya berbicara terbuka untuk 16 tahun sekarang. Ya, 16 tahun. Jadi, saya rasa seperti itu, kata-kata yang mencari itu, tidak berlaku, terbuka lagi. Kamu. saya terbuka, berbicara terbuka. Jadi, boleh saya berbicara terbuka? Ya, ya. Jadi, kita ada lawyer yang mencari yang mencari untuk mencari itu, yang sejuk rewarded. Yvonne um rancanganumnanya Sebenarnya, ke perbekaan孳 launched dengan dia sebagai paroh难 pada tempat yang così, dengan Phat Per 퍼hf Prahat naikan selebianya seluruh bahawa kemasan ucheaga PSK, atau lebih baik次 dapat berjaya dengan permainan dia. Nanti berikan saya sebab Kepuluh, dia berhak khubungan ke tempat,. ia berhak khubungan, hookedmen groi. Bukan banyak kelihatan kami, bukan berikan cukup, kita tak bercakap tentang kelihatan dan kelihatan. Dia berikan kelihatan, apa yang berikan kelihatan di Singapura? Saya berikan, "Yes?" Dia berikan, "I tak rasa yang sangat berlaku di Singapura." Saya berikan kelihatan di atas perempuan. "Dua saya ada kawan ini dengan awak?" "Dua saya hanya berikan kelihatan, kerana saya mempunyai suara, kerana awak berikan suara, pro bono." Dia berikan, "No, tidak, saya berikan. Ini sesuatu yang berikan saya." Dia berikan kelihatan di atas perempuan. Dia berikan, "Dua saya ada kawan yang di atas perempuan." Dia berikan, "Dua, di atas perempuan." "Dua, di atas perempuan." "Dua, di atas perempuan." "Dua, berikan kelihatan di atas perempuan." "Dua, di atas perempuan." Di atas perempuan, semua orang yang berikan di atas perempuan. "Dua, di atas perempuan." "Dua, di atas perempuan." Awak rasa kita, orang yang berikan di atas perempuan? Dan ramej, "No." Ini orang yang berikan di atas perempuan. Ini orang yang berikan di atas perempuan. Sebab dia nak buat pro bono untuk kita. Dia berikan ramej di atas perempuan, ramej untuk menghantar dia, jika dia berikan ramej di atas perempuan. Ini semua berikan yang sangat berikan. people find it hard to navigate kerana awak berikan, awak berikan yang hanya di atas perempuan. Kalau awak berikan, "Ya, saya rasa seperti awak, saya rasa saya berikan ramej di atas perempuan. Awak selalu berikan problem. Saya rasa itu sesuatu yang saya tak pernah orang mempunyai. Jadi, untuk saya, kawan-kawan itu berikan di atas perempuan di atas perempuan. Saya tak fikir cukup, tapi saya rasa ia berikan, dan saya tak fikir ia hanya kerana terlalu berikan yang terlalu berikan. Saya rasa media sosialnya sangat berikan. Dengan wakala gitu, différence yang mungkinasi yang kalian dapat menirau dalam kesalahan akan memang bermain Anda Saya rasa seperti ini seperti. zwez bila istitu tentangёр ‎ (makibir News Pictures) Tentulahsumidenya Mereka pengalaman accept semua kajuardenya lo pas musicalIM�� ageng beli wow Hati IP KYI Apa ramai naom yang masih tak ada cool untuk menyesteokbokki Heligah untuk Baby edi lelaki-lal yang membeli sempurna, oh wow, ada banyak perkara yang saya sangat berbual dengan. Ketika kita dapat buat sesuatu tentang itu adalah perkara yang lebih baik. Jadi sekarang, kawasan kawasan yang ada untuk mencari, "How do we hold this conversation?" "How do we push the conversation to the next point?" saya rasa, ya. Saya rasa. Saya rasa, saya rasa, masa masa depan itu, harap, makanan, menjaga, menjaga, menjaga, menjaga, semua, kan? Tapi, kalau kamu beri orang yang mencari, mereka mencari, mereka begitu, seperti, beritahu, kawasan kawasan yang terkeraja, makanan yang terkeraja, makanan yang mencari, tukar, tukar, tukar. Mereka masih berbeza dengan banyak orang yang mencari, ini adalah masalah yang kita tinggi sekarang, di Singapura. Saya rasa, orang yang mencari, untuk mencari, atau seperti kita mencari, di Singapura di sosial sosial di ekonomi, tapi, saya rasa, seperti, ia akan terkeraja untuk berhati-hati, jika berhati-hati, berhati-hati, kelas kecil, dan kelajuan, kamu tahu, ini sangat berbual, saya rasa, ia berhati-hati, lebih merancang, kerana kita tidak perlu berhati-hati, dan berhati-hati, dan kita berhati-hati, seperti, seperti, sejak, sejauh, itu berbeza, tapi, saya rasa, ada orang. Saya tidak berbual dengan mereka berhati-hati, dan saya rasa, saya rasa, berbual dengan orang yang mencari, tapi, saya rasa, saya rasa, saya rasa, kita perlu berhati-hati, jadi, kita berhati-hati, lebih berhati-hati, jika, saya rasa, saya tak tahu, tentang kerana, ya, ya. Tapi, tapi, saya rasa, kamu tahu, sebab media sosial, berhati-hati, sebab media sosial, itu berhati-hati, lebih merancang, tapi, kamu juga lihat, sebabnya, di dalam bahasa, itu berhati-hati, orang yang lebih merancang, -saya, sebabnya, jadi, kemudian, Awak terc giant dan diri menggemingtakan nariti yang melalui ekstren untuk mengubahkanできer bagian-öghi. Kita ingatkan akhirnya keras surprised. people saying, "起hlan, kinda o, macam" "togohnya cobaır untuk talkinational ini." kick about yang merahap. - Jadi kawan-kawan itu menerima minat holds semuanya ketemsinggaan nanti lagi perjalanan itu mudah saya, bukan hanya perjalanan. Saya akan menggunakan nanti, saya akan menggunakan nanti, tidak menggunakan nanti, bukan dalam seluruh tempatnya, untuk menggunakan semua ini. Kalau saya berhenti menerima investi, saya akan masih berikan satu perkara yang saya berikan tentang ini. Tapi saya beritahu kecil tentang perjalanan itu banyak. Dan itu lebih menerima saya, saya lebih teruk. - Teruk berikan lagi. - Saya rasa kita perlu buat sesuatu dengan perjalanan itu. Awak menerima perjalanan dan semua. Saya rasa seperti semua yang saya berikan, semua perjalanan yang saya berikan, juga ada penyakitkan lebih banyak daripada apa-apa. Kalau saya berikan perjalanan itu, apa yang saya buat untuk kawan-kawan saya? Tapi saya berikan kawan-kawan saya hanya kerana saya menggunakan kawan-kawan yang saya suka buat, yang saya berikan dengan perjalanan yang saya berikan dan penyakitkan. - Saya rasa berikan dan penyakitkan. Ketika itu, kawan-kawan yang saya berikan, bukan hanya teruk dan berikan. Itu juga jual. Dan semua yang saya cuba buat, dan berikan dengan kerana saya berikan. Tapi untuk kembali ke sosial media, saya tak tahu. Saya tak rasa. Saya rasa apa yang kita. Saya rasa apa yang kita boleh buat rather than yang berikan, dan berikan dengan kerana saya berikan. Saya takkan berikan dengan kerana saya berikan. Saya rasa apa yang kita boleh buat adalah untuk berikan kemasaan alternatif, atau untuk cuba buat orang berikan, untuk berikan lebih orang di Tata. Kalau mereka berikan, oh my god, ini berikan dengan kemungkinan yang terbuka. Karena anda rasa lagi, kerana tidak berikan dengan kerana itu. Dan anda harus melihat dan berikan. Itu di dalam anda. Saya rasa itu boleh berikan. for these people who feel the way they feel, if they feel inclined to more racist views, I think they are exactly the sort of people I would love to bring into my data. But that doesn't, to be honest, that doesn't happen so much. We do, I think the problem with the arts as well as the data, or maybe data specifically is that there is an echo chamber. We are constantly preaching to the choir. We're constantly bringing our friends and family into the space. But what I would love for people to do is, if you feel like you wouldn't feel the way we feel, come for our shows, and then talk to us about it. So I just want to play devil's ever killing. Not saying that I am representative of all Chinese people's views. You are. But even for us, when we were doing YouTube, we were sure funny. One of the videos that went the most viral series of videos we did were about casual racism, talking about the experience of ethnic minorities, being minority and then versus the majority privilege that Chinese people enjoy here. By more recent years, I think in the last five years, since COVID, everything, there's almost this feeling, it's not even, like as especially you look online, a lot of people say it's not even about feeling Chinese or anything like that. Of course, now all the food we consume, love is from China, you know. The shows people watch young, the kids are watching Korean shows, well dressed in unique clothes and brands from Japan and all that. So the idea of even Singaporeanness is being diluted by the day, you know, every day. And if, like when we talk about racial issues in Singapore between ethnic minorities and Chinese people and all, that almost, some people say that that kind of is, is that as big an issue now compared to that, that very, very big issue of our whole Singaporean identity is being diluted in every aspect, literally in the spaces around us all being taken away. Do you feel like the conversation also needs to kind of reflect that reality now that our Singaporeanness is being threatened? My counter question would be, what is the issue with our Singaporeanness being diluted? What is your concern with that? I would say, okay, for example, like I do think a lot of discussions are like this multi-racial aspect of Singapore. I was starting to feel a lot of people understand that it's quite a unique condition about Singapore, that you really don't see in a lot of other places in the world. Not that it's perfect or anything. But when you see foreigners coming from more homogenous cultures and you see how they don't want to. some of the quite a number of them don't want to integrate with the place that they live. In fact, they bring the way they do things and even just the language itself, I'm sure, in the fact that Chinese is predominant in a lot of eateries now, it's very apparent, right? So, in that sense, I feel Singaporeans may be getting more aware of this aspect of our Singapore culture being multiracial and that being a very strong identifier for us. But if we remain fixated on the talking about, like, you know, the issues between Malays, Indians, Chinese, Singaporeans, does that take away from a bigger problem that our whole Singaporean identity is being erased as well though? I think that's a really complex issue because I think the idea of integration is also kind of racist, expecting for people to come and work in our countries because obviously that's the economic value that they bring, right? And then expecting them to change their entire lives to fit in with people here. It's a huge ask. I don't think we realise how huge it is of an ask, especially when it's people who come from countries, as you mentioned, our homogenous, even people from China. You might think that, like, I would feel very strongly about Chinese people coming from China and not speaking English here. Well, that's their circumstance. They were not colonised by the British the way we were, you know? We speak English because of that. And to expect that immediate shift for them, to expect that they would meld themselves around our existence is such a privileged position in my opinion. I think is that my question for us to think about as a society would be, how can we all coexist without expecting people to change, to fit us and make us feel more comfortable? I know language is a thing. I get that. So I don't have answers for everything. I don't have a solution for it, per se. But I do think that this is one problem. It is. But if the core problem of our existence with each other is still something, I don't think it's about which one is a priority. I think both are equally important. And on the note of multiracialism or multiculturalism, I actually feel like we think of it as a neutral term. Multiculturalism sounds actually not even neutral. It sounds really positive. But I need, I sometimes think about what it raises. We think of ourselves as a migrant society, but it wasn't just a migrant society. We also had indigenous people. And I'm speaking as a non-indigenous person. Don't come from, I mean, my grandparents were not from Singapore, my grandparents were not from the region, not from the Malay Archipelago. So for me, I think about what multiculturalism erases. What culture does, becomes the dominant culture as well. So I don't think, the other thing, sorry, the other thing around this is also its fragility. We always talk about how amazing it is in Singapore that we can all coexist together. This is very fragile and we need to take care of it. I want to ask, why is it fragile? If it's fragile, what kind of foundations is it built on? It means that the foundations were never strong enough for this to sustain. It means that we're not having difficult enough conversations in order to strengthen the relationship with each other. Because we always espouse things like tolerance. But when you think about tolerance, again, it's not a neutral term. I'm asking, you're asking me to tolerate you and you have to tolerate him. You know, like we have to tolerate each other. What a terrible word, actually. So I think, again, we have to question the basis of everything we've been taught. I feel. I feel. So just on the smaller part of the part you brought out about the language, even as a minority, I do feel that people come to Singapore, they should speak the language. It's something that I guess has evolved over time, similar to how I used to think, actually we don't need CMIO. But then now I feel, maybe we need CMIO. And the reason I feel that is not so much the Singapore context. Maybe I'm losing hope in humanity. And I feel like human nature, you look throughout the thousands of years of civilization. There's always been groups that are marginalized, discriminated against. And maybe I don't have the optimism that one day we will all live in harmony. And like as much as I also feel like tolerance, not the best word, maybe that's the best that we can aim for. So that's my realization. You can say I've overall become maybe a bit more pessimistic. But do you ever feel that? Because last time I used to think that, yeah, why do we need to even have identity on the I see? And in some way, shaped at what's happening across multiple societies around the world, that maybe the stock of us evolving as society, right? It's actually at the core of human, there's tribalism. And you always feel other. You always have people that look like you prefer. I think that's very fair around tribalism. I think we will always find ways to be racist to each other or to other people. And as you rightfully pointed out, it has existed for as long as time. That's how slave started, you know, slavery started. And I wanted to ask you, like when you mentioned that you think CMIO should exist, like in what context do you mean that? So the most personal is like housing. So I think, and I want to say I'm fully certain that it should exist. But maybe I'm less averse to it as I used to be. Because again, looking at how in a lot of other countries, you call it democracies, socialist countries, you know, you get enclaves of people of a certain race. If not say left unchecked, but then it starts to get more and more polarized. And CMIO, thing to me is like, oh, maybe this is one mechanic of breaking up that polarity. And just keeping the recess mixing, whether you like it or not. I mean, even for my house, I have an ethnic quota when you're trying to sell it. And it's a pitch of a process like to overcome. But then I'm thinking, is this what society needs? And I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I feel like right now, even if I don't like my neighbors and all the fact of the matter, I take a lift from the 11 to the first law, there'll be different recess mixing. And I mean, feels like, okay, maybe this is just a, you just kept reminding that other recess exists. So that's what I'm coming from. I think just on the housing quota thing, I understand that I'm not very smart at discussing this specifically, but that I know of it was meant to not have ghettos, right? So the ghettoization of Singapore was something that they wanted to avoid, which is why they have the ethnic quota thing. But doesn't that mean that every place is then majority Chinese? So that's the flip side to it? Yeah, and is that the safety? Is that what? That's how you can tolerate tolerance? That's right. No, so exactly. So it made me think like, okay, what is ideal? And yeah, that's a good point. Like the ethnic quota, yeah, is I'll always be a minority. Like every HDP state I go to, probably I'll be a minority. Would it feel different if I go to an estate where it's all Cindy's or Indians? I don't know. Maybe growing out Singapore, you don't even think that possible. But then I have to do the thing, okay, but I mean, at the end of the day is one better or worse. And I won't deny sometimes when I look at Singapore, I'm like, okay, so the things we give up, but just looking at how the world is going with the leaders and how brazenly racist they are, it feels like, oh shit, maybe we do have to protect what we have. Maybe it is fragile. So that's what I don't know. I said I don't know. But that's what I found that. I mean, I haven't watched it, but reading what charge is about. It's very interesting, because obviously we all, when we go on through national service, we understand, oh yeah, they are, there's a lot of racism in there. People call you turn on names and have preconceived notions about race and all that. By the same time, for a lot of Singaporean men, even myself include Ella, I mean, it is the first time you really face to face and you sleep with, you know, some of the different race in the same room and everything, you know, and for a lot of other Chinese Singapore people, maybe even their first exposure to a non-Chinese friend. So as much as I, yeah, there's a lot of criticisms about national service and what it means for people. There's also some people come away from it with a positive experience of understanding people from different ethnic backgrounds and all, really. So is charged, very focused on the differences that their people experience and is there anything that has changed in the staging from 2010 to now to reflect what NS has been for a lot of people in the last 15 years? So just to go back to what you were saying, basically, NS was like good for you because you were exposed to the ethnic. I was exposed to something different, yeah. I mean, I know even just ethnic but class differences, right? Even language abilities, things like that, what people are comfortable speaking at and just being a lot, being able to just see that there's a wider, bigger pool of people. I think what's really interesting is that exactly as you say that people can go through their entire lives and not have a male friend or an Indian friend. That's crazy because that can't be our experience as ethnic minorities because we absolutely have to have a robust. We have a more robust social experience, I suppose, just because we can't exist in our own spaces, maybe, our communities. But we've charged specifically. I would say that the focus is around the conversation of race. But I think we all know that the national service is a very big bonding activity for a lot of men. And like you said, there was something that people bond over, it's something negative, things as well, including what you mentioned as casual racism. I don't think any racism is casual, but racism, right? That's such a big part of banter, like army banter. But at whose expense is it, you know, like I think about what you mentioned as your experience, like this is when you get to be exposed to other ethnicities, people of other classes. But how are we protecting those people from feeling very other in the spaces? Especially because this is bringing 18, 19, 20 year olds or early to be boys in the early 20s together in a very protected space or other unsupervised in some ways. I can imagine how dangerous it is. And I know it is the case because all the conversations I've had with men who have gone through NS, that has always been something that they bring up. Oh my god, we did this, we did that a lot of life. Not just the racism but the misogyny, how they speak about women. I find it very difficult to listen to, but I listen because I want to know what happens. And so charged, I think, is a reflection of parts of it. Of course, it is a through-line, there is a story here, but I think it is meant to reflect the experience of a lot of NS men. And I think a lot of NS men would actually find it quite relatable, especially around being exposed to people who are not who they normally would be exposed to, who they were brought up with. I mean, for you, Harish, like, what NS experience, do you have any firsts, your experience in the first during NS? Yeah, I guess people who come from totally different backgrounds, who grew up in families where drug abuse was part of their day-to-day life. And I was like, "Oh, shit, you hear about these stories, but then to meet these people." And find out that they actually just regular people, just with different circumstances. And so that was very eye-opening for me. Of course, I had Chinese friends from young. I'm sure I've been a first Indian friend for a lot of people, same way for you. Yeah, of course. Not me, not me. You're not my first Indian friend. For me, you were Indian before you met me. From Indian food, then you were. That's true. So you mean you're not racist? I'm not a French. To be fair, the Terrence, he has spoken up for me being a minority, even when I also didn't realize. You are unaware that you were being racist in tune. Yeah, I was like, "Oh, Terrence, sorry." And I was like, "What, Terrence has proven itself, has proven itself." I need to know. Okay, but tell about NS first. So NS, for me, first experiences, or even like the race? How it was race-affecter? I mean, it looked back that we were commenced, maybe I was like, "Huh, okay, that was squally race-la." So for example, we were in Camo and all that. So, few friends with this guy, "Oh, are you still wearing Camo? You taken the Camo off or not?" And I would laugh it off-la. But looking back, I'm like, "Oh, okay. Maybe that was really anchored in race." But at the same time, those are my very close friends. So it becomes something like. Because I mean, especially when we do comedy, I think context matters a lot. If that was done between three of my closest friends and me, where I return the favor with, not like it's kind of joke, to me, I feel that it's still okay because there's a lot of trust. When people don't know you and make that comment, that's a very different context. So that was also an experience. But overall, thankfully, there were no instances where I was traumatized. But I can understand why in circumstances like that, it can be very traumatizing. And I think it was also my first exposure to a lot of the systemic racism. Yeah. That maybe the road to house pays with good intentions. I know they thought that they put these things in place. It's supposed to be to help like integration and everything. But in the end, some, you know, dividing people more. So in a sense, maybe I was blissfully ignorant, blissfully ignorant about it growing up and everything. But I think the army, because you're on the cusp somewhere between school and joining the real world, then you really start to see a lot of these things. Yeah. And I think the older I got, I think like what you said about the words to describe this, like looking back if I replayed my life, probably there were a lot of instances that things happened. But it wasn't even part of my reality, because my parents never talk about it. My parents were not born as a board. They came, my dad came from India after that during the partition. And for them, it was just survival. So I think what you said is very true that if we are not even made aware, we might not even realize what's happening. It's only as we got older, we entered media. I started becoming more conscious of like, you know, sort of the words that I use, things that I said, those actually have a lot of impact. So I think the whole thing about Singapore, no racism, I think I used to think that at some point, but now I know there's across all levels. It might not be as explicit as like other countries, but you see it and it's not difficult to see it. In fact, entering media has maybe shown me even more than an ass. For example, that story that Terrence and I were we were at a show where they were deciding the jingle for a show where I was the main character, am I a character's Indian? So I think they made it very Indian sounding or in a comical way. And you're playing it. Bollywood and everybody was laughing and I was like, oh yeah, and then Terrence was like, is this really the best idea? And I was like, Terrence, can you shut up? I'm the lead actor, you're doing this for me. But Indian, he pointed out which on reflection, I mean, they didn't take the feedback that this was maybe a bit. The whole making fun of the Indian thing didn't serve anything at all apart from that chuckle. But I will forever remember that day. So now when he says something annoying, I'll be like, you know what Terrence, he's in L.I. He's in L.I. Very deep down, isn't it? But yeah, I mean, I think in media and the arts, I think minorities are always the comic relief. And I think again, Saya rasa itu saya menggunakan kemungkinan yang mempunyai kenaan-kenaan. Kita tak boleh mempunyai kenaan-kenaan kerana semua kenaan-kenaan yang berapa. Jadi itu bukan hanya satu karakter yang perlu mencapas semua inden, semua melenai, semua yurasi dan keseluruhan. Jadi saya rasa itu kenaan yang kita mempunyai ke depan. Dan percayaan yang anda berkata. Jadi untuk saya, kedua, saya mempunyai kemungkinan media dan sosial jasis. Dan untuk saya, saya mempunyai kemungkinan dan kemungkinan media dan sebagainya di Singapurian, saya minta kemungkinan yang mencapas kemungkinan yang mempunyai kemungkinan media. Jadi saya mencapas kemungkinan 20 men? Dan saya mempunyai kemungkinan yang saya mempunyai kemungkinan yang saya mempunyai kemungkinan. Saya tak tahu jika ini adalah kemungkinan, tapi, mereka beritahu saya, "Betulang kemungkinan yang saya boleh mempunyai, paling sekadar ada denk di ab 강 ini adek di jonda japan yang pumped-up tomah main yang itu segi disebabkan j offerin yang mereka tidak se lurusным or mereka sentiasa titik di Purple Swières Jadi macam, "Ooohh Boleh jadi lo sekarang jangan itu pickled cik B didnt siap maksud saya "Ohhh kita tak mahu ini untuk selalu jadi "Ohh seorang ini sangat berhenti saya rasa saya tak mahu berhenti saya mahu berhenti tapi saya mahu berhenti bukan semua orang perlu buat begitu seperti, especially kerana saya saya sangat berhenti kerana saya rendah kumpul dan saya rendah ialah kumpul dan saya di dalam kejutan jadi orang yang mempunyai ini adalah lebih banyak tapi di dalam kejutan boleh anda imagine macam macam macam, macam banyak perkara orang macam, "Ohh itu okay, itu okay, itu okay" dan sepanjang masa anda akan beritahu orang lebih berhenti untuk mengenai apa yang kita kerasis kerasis atau kerasis kerasis kerana kerana orang berhenti orang tidak berhenti dan saya tak mahu berhenti saya mahu berhenti saya mahu berhenti saya mahu berhenti saya mahu berhenti saya mahu berhenti saya mahu berhenti saya mahu berhenti saya mahu berhenti saya mahu berhenti dalam at likeар lain dan bolang yang setelah harus people tak hentikan sentiasa makan gandai. Jadi saya ingin jagahan itu, diak hentikan senyata yang saya meng single rappang ♫ Ypng tak tahu dengan videonya yang terkenal beef entra降 menjadigroh dan makan teman-tentarlah. Seldikas anda perhast thikernil tetapi storm campanya 32nya firat ke個an diacak bersama teu Gadgete pen myan yg terbuka, mengembangkan kelihatan, orang yang berharap kelihatan di akamadra untuk mencari kembali. Dan satu sangat kawan yang mengembangkan kembali kembali kembali kembali, dan apabila itu, "Di mana rasa yang mengembangkan masih 15 tahun yang mengembangkan?" dan saya beritahu, "Ya, tidak rasa itu, rasa kamu tidak menghentikan penyelaskan lebih banyak?" dan dia beritahu, "Ya, saya rasa, tapi itu sangat berbeza." Saya beritahu, saya beritahu dia, "Berbeza untuk saya." dan dia berbeza untuk saya. Tapi kenapa? Dia berbeza untuk saya. Dia beritahu, "It's so embarrassing karena kenapa saya tidak menghentikan dengan mengembangkan? Kenapa berbeza untuk saya? Saya beritahu, dan saya beritahu, karena kita mempunyai rasi, tapi kita juga perlu berbual rasi, kita tidak berbual rasi, karena lagi kita berbual rasi, dan saya beritahu, saya beritahu, "I can't imagine how many ethnic minority people feel embarrassed to bring up racism because they're like, "Oh my God, people are going to say we're banging on about the same thing." But if the same thing is still happening, why can't we talk about it? Why victims of any other kind of violence? Can you ever imagine telling them, "Oh my God, it's so embarrassing that you're still being beaten up?" Know what? So why is it the case for this type of racism, sorry, of violence, you know? And the other thing is that besides, you know, how you can move up in the workplace or whatever, there is also a very psychological and physical impact of racism, right? Like they've learnt that there's this concept called weathering where continuous exposure to something like racism or any kind of similar violence onto your body has an actual impact because there's stress, there's an inability to present as your whole self and there is actual impact on your body. If you believe stress can have an actual impact on your body, why not racism? Of course, it does have an impact on your body. So I don't know, I feel like as long as we are not having these conversations, we will always be fragile as a nation around this specifically. Sorry, but I just, you know, like I think I agree that racism is still something that we should talk about a lot. If anything, I would just want to understand or so talking to minorities and Singaporeans. Like what about racism? Where does racism land? Where we're talking about how Chinese Singaporeans feel about China-Chinese or how Indian Singaporeans feel about Indian Indians. There's, in recent years, a lot more tension between Singaporeans and foreigners as well. So where does race fit in that conversation? I do think it makes it a lot more complicated and complex. I was talking to a couple of diversity, equity and inclusion practitioners, people who work in companies to make it more equitable as a workplace. And I asked them about what work they do around race. And they said none, because it's very complicated, because the racism sometimes is quite. Yeah, exactly. There's also the, like I don't believe in reverse racism, but for example, in workplaces that are predominantly Indians from India, they speak Hindi, for example, in the workplace. Rather than the, you know, the, the complaint we always have, which is like every workplace speaks Mandarin all the time. But there are certain workplaces in Singapore that only speak Hindi, for example, in departments. I don't know. I don't have a direct solution. But again, I think conversations, it has to start from conversations. It has to start from uncomfortable conversations and that courage as well to have it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the thing is like, I feel that it's almost harder for me to outright just say, "Oh, what you're criticizing about someone is necessarily makes you racist." Because, yeah, these complex emotions about, you know, if I interact with Indian Indian, then the way they do things could be very different from how a Singaporean does things. Then I go to Harishan, I said, "Do you feel the same way as me as a Singaporean, as a Chinese Singaporean, do you feel the same way as me?" And a lot of times, I mean, at least in my memory, he told me, "Oh, actually, yes, I was also feeling the same way about." So the things are, you know? And that's why I'm like, "Well, okay, that conversation about race is very different even from 2017 when we were doing videos about casual racism and all." And I also don't have an answer how to. how the conversation evolves. But if anything is just like. it makes it even more complex to create art that talks about such topics. Because as a. Yeah, even my own identity as a Chinese person is. I don't think China, Chinese thing that I'm particularly Chinese either, because I barely speak the language properly and all, you know? And I am so different from them. So I can't say that they are being racist against me, but definitely there's the ring of my ethnicity, right? So, yeah, it is something very. that I think about quite a bit. But I would say, expecting them to be more like us that is also the other ring of them, you know? Yeah, so I think we are all at the ring each other in one way or another. Yeah, I don't think they are expecting me. I'm not expecting them to be like me, but I know that they. the Chinese, when I go there and all, and I speak the way I speak, my very bad Mandarin, there's an immediate thing that. you're not one of us. But then, you know, there's a lot of times when I speak in informal settings, or even when you see things like in the media and advertisement being greenlit, that clearly is tone deaf. You. then might be sometimes where it's. someone from the previous generation who made the decision. So, in that case, are we othering them? Because if we are saying people are from a different country, that's their lived experience. They come to Singapore. We can't expect them to turn to us. Some are uncles and aunties. They see some crazy shit. But then I'm like, "Okay, they are lived experience." So then, where do you draw the line? Yeah, I think, like, around language sometimes as well, like around the sort of. like how they grew up saying certain words, for example, or feeling certain ways. I mean, we need to educate them, right? I do think it is our responsibility as the generation who, in some specific areas, no better now. I do think that it is our responsibility to educate them around it. And the problem is that we have to do it over and over again. I don't think it's just one time. As to othering them? Yeah, I mean. Just other than them. - It's fine. (laughing) - It's fine. - Yeah. - I don't think I want to watch something racist just so that someone doesn't feel other. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But you know, you were also saying that we need to have more conversations, right? But I always hear people say that. Look, what does a conversation that is productive mean to you and what does that look like? - I think one thing, for example, around things that have been greenlit, I want to look at how the room looks like. I want to look at who was at the table, at the decision making table. And I'm not talking about one person at that table, right? I'm not talking about just you, for example, in a table of people who feel the same way and then you have to be the person that fights for what you feel is right. That is a deeply uncomfortable position for a lot of people to be in. I feel like if it was more representative, less things like this will happen. And I don't mean that it won't happen because brown people, millions can also be perpetrators of racism as well. They can have internalized racism. They can feel like they are of a different class, whatever. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a diverse background who are all at the table making decisions together. I hate talking about tables, but I mean, at where they're making decisions, I think those are the, where the conversations have to happen. That's maybe more high level. But trickling down, do you remember talking about race in a more open manner when we were in secondary school or something? - No, no. - No, no. - No, no. - No, no. - No, go area. - Yeah, exactly. It's always a no-go area. That's at least my experience as well, right? And apparently yours as well. So I feel like again, that's that moment of where we're all formulating how we wanna be as people. We're so, we're deciding our identities at that age. I think it's really important that we have that conversation. You know, how I think we need to figure out. I don't think I necessarily have the answer for it. But one way could be being exposed to a lot of different types of experiences and that could be through the arts. And I think that this is where the arts is always very particularly useful, I think, because it helps you see things that are not what you normally see. And I think that's where theater might play a part. I don't necessarily just mean acorn mattress works. I think a lot of other theater companies do great work around this as well, around forcing you to have conversations. Not forcing, maybe like sparking that want to discuss. Yeah, so I think that's a couple of ways where conversations could happen. But I mean, why do we need all that when we have racial harmony days? Correct. I mean, because that solves everything, right? Oh my God. I am so sorry, I forgot about that. Okay, sorry. Forget about everything I've said. Yeah, right. We get to end the podcast. Yeah. Get an encouragement. But I mean, and this is also my experience. I mean, I lived and studied in the US. And I think I grew up like, idolizing what the American values stood for and how diverse the country is. If anything that passed for two, eight years, we've all seen that that society just flipped on its head and it's totally different place from when I was living there and all that, right? But do you see any other example of how people talk about race or how different races, about a multiracial society around the world, aside from Singapore, where you feel like they've got a handle on these discussions about race, much better than we have here. Because you spent time abroad also, right? Yeah, I know. Last time we spoke, you know, I was staging a plane in Japan, right? In Japan, right? And you studied in the UK as well. Yeah, I've spent maybe four plus years in the UK. My answer is no. I don't think there's any better society per se. But I think the lie that we keep telling ourselves is that we are the better society. And just because we're in the World Cup season, right? You know about how the Paraguay and Senator was incredibly racist to Umbape. And you think about Umbape and Umbape is that easily one of the most, arguably one of the most popular footballers at the moment and a Senator from Paraguay can say some crazy racist things to him. Why do we think that we are above that, as a society, why do we think we're better than the global realities is what I'm thinking? I don't think other countries have resolved racism. I don't think other countries are devoid of that. I don't think there's other countries that we can look to and emulate to be honest. I just think that we as Singapore can do better, just from where we are at. I think we need to stop lying to ourselves. But not I won't go so far to solve racism. I don't think it's possible. But just talking about it, I realized that in the US you can't talk about it anymore. DI has just been dead over there. The UK, I mean worse, Europe, even Scandinavia, as well I'm hearing a lot of things from people who live there that it's very difficult even to talk about these things. Like, where do you hope that one day, the conversations will be at Singapore, such that it's okay. I feel like there's real progress. I think, first of all, the rejection of the existence of Chinese privilege is huge. Because I think we as a society, I feel like you kind of mentioned it slightly. We're quite paternalistic as a society, right? We look at the government as our parents or something of our father. So our father tells us there's no Chinese privilege or there's no majority privilege. We're like, "Ah, okay, move on." And then there's no conversation about it anymore. But if you sit down and think about it critically, how can there not be majority privilege? It's not a Chinese thing. It's any country where there is a majority and an marginalized ethnic minority community. Of course there's privilege. The idea that we cannot talk about even these things because we are gaslit into thinking that, "Oh, it's an American term." Oh, it's, you know, like because that's what we were told. Like things like white privilege cannot be imported. Imported, right? All these things are imported. But other things you can import. But they're not conversations about race, not the minorities that help us understand our experience. It's not necessarily one to one, right? That's not the case. Like we cannot look at the black persons experience in the US as similar to our experience in Singapore because we don't have a history of slavery, for example, or history of that sort of incarceration. So I'm not saying at all that what's happening in the US or what's happening in the UK is similar to what's happening here. But I do feel that this complete rejection of the vocabulary that people are coming up with is leaves us with less words to explain our experience. While we are trying to grapple and figure out what are the actual words that we have for ourselves, I think this is a great way of silencing this conversation. I think one way where things can move forward is by not making it so ethnic minorities are getting into trouble for talking about racism. Like we know that from the last few years where that has happened to comedians. And I think that's where we need to figure out why are we not being allowed to talk about something that is our reality? Yeah. - So what would it have been like something that you wish happened after? I think it was SM Lee who said about Chinese privilege not existing. Yeah, I was SM Lee. He said, yeah, I was trying, what was he talking about about? Rewoke and everything. - No, I think it was during a rally or something where he talked about it and said, it's almost not possible for it to exist. So in a more mature society based on what you and Vision, what ideally would have happened after that? Like people talk about that, be okay to refer to that and have a conversation about it. - Yeah, I think again we talk about conversation. But I don't know where else to start. Like what, if it's not conversation, it's action, but we cannot create action without really understanding the problem, right? And I think reflection is also really important. If the majority is not being asked to reflect on their privileges because of myths that they've been sold like meritocracy, then there is no need to reflect on how they are adding to the problem or how they are seeing other people in a very specific way because they are being told that oh, meritocracy exists. Therefore, there's no such thing as privilege. Just because you want meritocracy doesn't mean that meritocracy exists. And so I feel like what I would have loved is for an actual conversation, an actual reflection. And us as a society, not just accepting what politicians are saying as gospel. Why? They are humans as well, no? They can also make mistakes, we all know that. And I think that idea that as long as the government says ABC, that we are to adopt that wholly and completely, I think that needs to be questioned. I think we ourselves, and not in a way that it might sound, but it's more like, how are you telling me exact, how are you telling me what my reality is? I'm telling you, this is how I experience life. Why are you telling me it's not, I'm confused about that to be honest. Jadi, bukan? Jadi, macam, "Au optimistik itu?" Ketika tidak, kita mencari resis, "Di mana-mana, boleh kita mencari?" Orang-orang, "What would?" "What would there be a time where you feel okay?" "My work is done." "Theater, Icamatra, does not need to exist anymore." Oh, it's Singaporean Theater Production Company. Ya, ya, Yurian Brand, ya. "Do you envision a time, or do you see it as part of Humanity almost?" I think it's our responsibility to be optimistic, in the sense that as pessimistic, as I am as a person, I think it's important to have radical optimism because that's the only way we would commit to a better future. And I think we do need to commit to a better future because if we don't, there are so many people that this is at the expense of. And I'm not talking about people like you and me where I feel like we do have our privileges, we have. But, ya, even things that we don't even realise our privileges, right? I'm thinking about the everyday person that doesn't even get to have this conversation, you know? And I feel like where we are, what can we do? If all of us were thinking about that, then I think, like, for you, for example, you were saying something about what you felt like Haraj was going through. I feel like that's something that not a lot of people would do because it makes you feel unpopular. I'm not talking about people. I mean, they were just dismissive of my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're overthinking it. Things like that. Imagine being told when you were in the US. No, no, no, no, no. That situation, when you were on the table, where people were using a Bollywood song. Oh, I thought you were talking about a time when you reflected in your time in the US as a live, as finely experiencing life as a minority on the piece. I never say that. I never say that. I never say that. I've done brought that up here, but. No, no, but I was saying, like, I thought you were referring to that, which actually happened, like. Which do you reflect it and you can now. Oh, yeah, yeah. It has happened before. Which also not the most constructive, but maybe it can give a bit more confidence. Yeah, yeah. Basically, you know, especially a lot of Chinese Singaporeans when they travel overseas and then you're part of a minority, you know, like, whether you live for travel overseas and then you experience some form of racism and all. And for a lot of people, it is Chinese immigrants. It will be their first time experiencing it as such. And then they come back and they reflect about it. I think recently there was a influence of it. Something like that. And then, yeah, essentially, there's a bit of a. Sometimes a bit of a mocking tone as well. Like, "Oh, wow, it took you, you know, you had to take a business class flight overseas and already for you to experience racism. Welcome to my live reality every day, lah." And in some ways, I look at them like, "Oh, does that eat the cause?" Like, you know, now that someone who maybe better understands what. What minority. What minority is experiencing day to day, lah, right? And yes, it's very late in their lives. Yes, it sounds very privileged the way they experienced it. But is it a bad thing that more people are able to empathize? And why do we almost have this like. You know, almost a bit of a mocking tone towards them when they. They try to say themselves like, "You know, that'd be a bit more vulnerable." "Yes, now I was blind before, but now I see, you know?" And then that's where I think even my own experience, I have also. I also can add that before, but this was quite a well-behaved deal, lah. And I was quite. Yeah, it was quite surprising for me that, you know, the response would be like that, lah. But at the same time, you know, reflecting on it, I do understand, yes, there's. You know, like, the blissful ignorance you said, like, you mentioned. I think I agree that, yeah, there's a lot of times. It's. We are shielded from it for a specific reason, right? And maybe there's something that we need to look at, the systemic problems that prevent the majority from realising the privilege. On, on specifically, on that note, I have had thoughts about it, because I know a lot of people bashed her for writing about how Switzerland thought about racism and all, and I. I think some of that feeling is valid, so I'm not going to invalidate that part. But on the flip side, there are a lot of people who go overseas and then come back and go, "Oh my God, thank God Singapore is not racist." I have literally been in positions where there was this dinner, for example, in the UK, where, like, scholars were invited, and we were at some important person's house, and we were eating, and everyone was. So everyone was trying to use it, except me. And everyone was reflecting on how the UK has made them feel so much pride and respect for the sort of racial harmony Singapore has. So they were all Singaporeans? They were all Singaporeans. And they were talking about, you know what? How crazy is it in the UK that in the UK, this racist things happen, blah, blah, blah. And I'm just sad that thinking like, "Mam Dei, talk about this or not." Of course I did. I stopped being invited to the business. But anyway, I said, "No, I don't think so. I think actually that's a very odd way of looking at it." What I would say is that you feel like an ethnic minority here, like a minority here, that's why you're feeling what you feel. But when you go back to Singapore, the reason why it feels different is because you become the majority. I think that's obviously clear. But for them, of course, that's not a reflection that they can see. So as it is already, there's so many ways of taking that experience. And then the week after the brown face advertisements came out. So I remember I screen-shotted it, and I sent it to the. Because there was an email that everyone was on. The ones who were invited to this dinner. So I sent it and I was like, "Hey, guys, sorry. You remember that conversation we had about how Singapore is post-racism?" I just wanted to highlight to you that this is an obvious example of what's happening. And this is just one example that is out and discussed. So specifically which brown face advertisements? The Denys. That is true. Also, okay. Yeah, that one. And so I sent it and nobody responded to me. Then you would take an off. Maybe they replied like, "But they took you off the CC. So it's something invited for those things?" Which happens again, when you bring up the problem, you tend to not get invited to these things. But I'm okay. It's fine. Those are not places that I have to be. So I mean looking forward, what sort of impact do you hope charged has? And I do for see potential reruns in future. I'm really excited to see how the audience reacts because I remember watching it back in 2010 as an audience member, right? And I remember that it felt. I mean, the word charged is very useful in this context because it is a very charged piece of work. It is making us confront actual realities, but realities that we might not necessarily be experiencing on a day-to-day basis. Especially in such a heightened manner. Like you mentioned again, just back to how racism has a lot of different levels and layers. This is a very intense version of it, maybe. But it's not an intense version for a lot of people. This is every day for a lot of other people as well. So I think what I'm hoping people come out of it is reflecting either of their own experiences and feeling like feeling seen. I think that was always an important thing that I felt for myself when I watched Ika Matra shows before I was running the company. I felt like I could breathe. I was like, "Oh my God, people do think my experiences are real." So that's one thing that I'm hoping for ethnic minorities in general, that they are able to reference this work as feeling, as being able to feel seen, and how it feels to feel seen. And then for everyone else, I do want them to reflect on how am I part of the problem, or how am I part of the solution, how am I enabling these types of violences to happen around me. Because you saying something about what Harish went through is you being an active member. A lot of us are passive members of these situations and of racism or any other kinds of violences. So I think it's about making people reflect on their positionality and what they have to do in order for Singapore to be a better country. I think the idea of revisiting previous productions is super interesting. I think we had Jotan on before. And she's revisited a couple of her plays more than once, twice. And I think when we spoke to her, there was that incorporating how society has changed and different views on the different issues that they face is something quite unique to theatre that way. I mean, even NS to me is like, I have a very love-hate relationship with it. And while it was very important, but it was important for me in my growth, but at the same time, there were a lot of things in there that I felt were really terrible and wrong. And my son, one day, will go through it as well. And I have this, how do you even think of something? And it changes in five years, ten years. And I love to see what the next take goes well. It will be about charged. Have you thought about running a promo? If you bring your racist friend, you get free tickets. I was a looser. You want to not be should acquire. Yeah, I agree. You should discount for racist friends. So as the purchaser, it's just between you and the purchaser, if you bring a racist friend, they enter for free, but you don't need to tell a racist friend. I like that. Okay. Because if you preach to your choir, then they go out. So everybody will bring a racist person, but the racist person will not know that they are the racist person. So, I mean. But do we put stickers on them? No, I've been. Respect, respect. Respect. Different colours. Different colours. Because I mean, there's still time for. Dan seorang orang nak berhati-hati di mana mereka boleh berhati-hati. Saya nak berhati-hati di dalam video saya. - Saya nak berhati-hati di akamatra. - Kita akan berhati-hati di akamatra. - Ya, saya nak berhati-hati di akamatra. - Saya nak berhati di akamatra. - Ya, dan Instagram. - Instagram. - Ya, www.sharza.esak. - Okey, kita boleh berhati-hati di akamatra. - Ya. - Tapi saya rasa terima kasih kerana membuatkan ini. - Kerana itu bukan muda. - Ya. - Dan saya boleh berhati-hati di akamatra. - Jadi, kerana kamu dan kamu semua berhati-hati di akamatra. - Ya. - Terima kasih banyak untuk berhati-hati di akamatra. - Terima kasih banyak yang terima kasih. - Terima kasih banyak. - Kita cuma ada satu lagi. - Ya. - Yang ini, ada yang kamu ada melihat, melihat atau melihat. - Tidak kamu dapat melihat dengan kawan-kawan. - Ya. - Kita boleh pergi dulu. - Ya. - Kamu ada satu yang terjadi. - Ya, satu yang terjadi, adalah just, basically, video. - Tidak berhati di akamatra. - Vibram, di bawahnya, ada banyak performa. - Mereka dari orang yang besar. - Mereka menggunakan, ada di akamatra, ada di akamatra. - Ya. - Dan saya selalu tahu, apa yang terjadi, yang terjadi, 怎麼 sakit makanya para j els. hari ini sangat uker di swelak kata. 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Dan 역시 grund ik mirrornya parler dengan. jika tanggung, itu akan tinggalkan beberapa men vinggitu nasihat lain. госربeng Daripada hari ini kita perluretu Nih poner semuanya是啊 tidak laten digunakan. jika kita memasakkan ini, karena ini terakhirkan kelasan kelasan kelasan di Southeast Asia,. kita terakhirkan 100 milen orang yang hidup. Jadi saya beritahu mereka. Jika tidak menemukan. yaitu, jangan menemukan. Dan jika kamu ada sekitar 2,. nya akan beritahu kami kalau kamu boleh membeli kami berhati-hati. Ini membantu kita berikan lebih baik dan beri. Dan berikan ini terakhirkan. Terima kasih banyak.