Hello boys and girls ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of Tim Ferris show where it is my job to interview and deconstruct world class performers people who are exceptionally good in one or more dimensions to figure out how they do it. How can you take frameworks, influences, books, habits and copy and paste from their lives into your own. My guess today is a very impressive full stack human. He walks the talk. He's not just a commentator. He is a player on the field and I have observed how he acts and creates meaning in his own life in multiple dimensions with great admiration. Arthur Brooks is a professor at the Harvard Kennedy School and the Harvard Business School where he teaches courses on leadership and happiness he is also the host of the weekly podcast office hours with Arthur Brooks and a columnist at the Atlantic where he writes the popular weekly how to build the life column who wouldn't like a column titled how to build a life his next book the meaning of your life. Finding purpose in an age of emptiness will be released on March 31st 2026 and in this conversation Arthur and I traverse a lot of terrain I dig into his routines morning routines evening routines work out routines blood flow restriction bands and technology for greater gains and fewer injuries as you age I really get into a lot of the tactical and we also discuss how you could take something that seems esoteric. Creating meaning and turn it into frameworks that you can apply to counter act the wave and trend of nihilism in the face of overwhelming noise and doom scrolling and so on this is of course a topic a question a dilemma that is faced humans that has been discussed for millennia but it is never been more important in my opinion had we cover a lot that you can take and use in this conversation so let's get to it. Arthur Brooks you can find them at Arthur Brooks dot com we will link to all of the socials he's easy to find without further do please enjoy. Arthur Brooks we meet again nice to see you too nice to see you know glad to see your the vascularity in your arms is still visible even through the long sleeve shirt yeah. Every woman wants a vascular man you know I only take my keys from the internet exactly my wife every day she says I love you you're so vascular could really take this lot of directions but I'm going to take a hard left from vascular. And I'm going to try to pronounce Brahma Mertah Brahma Mahorta OK Brahma Mertah and the reason I bring this up is because I want to offer some candy much like maybe an E.T. putting the Reese's pieces on the floor to lower E.T. out I want to bring my listeners and die hearts into the conversation with a morning routine. And we'll talk about evening routines at the end as bookmarks and then we're going to dive into all sorts of stuff but what is Brahma Mertah and could you describe your personal morning. I do have a very strong and very disciplined morning routine and I study love and happiness so it's not as if I'm going deep into the physiology of actually how I can have the best amount of muscle mass minimum amount of body fat. I want to have more love and happiness in my life and it's not easy so I'm a specialist in human happiness because it's hard for me you know that's the first thing I know everybody just research on happiness. And the psychology behavioral science world they're doing it for a reason. It's sort of me search more than research but one of the things that I found is that discipline and understanding of your own human physiology the biology and neuroscience is critical for actually becoming a happier person. So I have a morning routine that I dedicate to being both more productive and having higher will be so I'm managing mood because high negative affect is characteristic by personality. And I also need to be really productive because the morning hours are when you're most productive especially creative stuff almost everybody experiences this. And that starts with what you just mentioned which is called the Brahma Mertah and I studied a lot in India I go to India every year I have spiritual teachers but also I'm very interested in behavioral science in the Vedic tradition. They came to a lot of truths way before Western social science actually came upon this and one of the ideas was Brahma Mertah which in Sanskrit means the creator's time. Now a Mertah is 48 minutes long so to Mertah the Brahma Mertah is an hour and 36 minutes before dawn and the whole idea going back thousands of years as you get up an hour and 36 minutes before dawn and you'll be more creative more in touch with the divine more productive and happier. This was always the contention so of course it's been put to the test in modern behavioral science research and sure enough. We don't know if it's too Mertah this is the right number of Mertahs but the whole point is getting up before dawn as incredible impacts on productivity focus concentration and happiness. If you're getting up when the sun is warm you've lost the first battle for mood management productivity is what it comes down to. So my days almost start before dawn. Now I usually set the clock for 430 in the morning which is a lot before dawn who knew that Jack O'Willing was such a fan of Vedic traditions. He also makes up a 430. 430 is a good time for a lot of different reasons. You try to retrofit your schedule to what you need to do for sure. And that's a long time before dawn in the winter and not that long before dawn in the summer and our listeners in Helsinki are like what do I do in July. You have to tailor the routines to what you're doing but it's very clear that this is good for productivity and very good for happiness. And then the most important thing is what do you do right after that? I pick up everything to run around. So the most important room in my house is gym. And I've always had a good gym in my house down in the basement of my house. Now down in the basement of my house is also living one of my kids and his wife and their two sons. So I have to be real quiet. I keep planking around down there because I don't want to wake up my grandchildren. But I do generally speaking two-thirds resistance, one-third zone two. But I tailor that to what my day is going to look like. So if I have a sedentary day, I'll do mode zone two to start the day. And if I don't walk in a rental, I'm walking around campus or whatever I have to do. I know I'm going to be walking seven or ten miles that day. I'll do all resistance. And so that really depends. If I'm going on a hike with my wife on Saturday or something. But that's seven days a week. I do an hour in the gym, seven days a week. What would the, let's just say, prototypical, two-thirds resistance, one-third zone two or whatever the ratio might look like as a template. What would that look like? What type of exercises, free weights equipment, kettlebells, what type of zone two do you like? Because for instance, like with zone two, it's like I travel a lot. Stationary bikes can be a real hassle because of the fitting. But then all right, maybe you use a treadmill with an incline with a rook sack or something like that. I'd just love to know this thing. Yeah, for sure. I'm very old school. So my resistance training, actually, I learned the routines that I do when I was in my 30s. I really started lifting when I was in my 30s. And my dad died and I changed a lot of the things in my life. I quit drinking alcohol in my 30s. And I did a lot of things differently than I hadn't done before because I wanted to not have the future that I saw, you know, the windshield of my life. And one of the things that I did was I started getting serious about my fitness and going to the gym. And I thought to myself, you know, what's my goal? My goal is not to, you know, turn into a statue and, you know, be admired. I mean, I've been married for a long time at that point. That was sort of done. And besides my wife doesn't care. She just wants to be happy and healthy. I wanted to be doing that in my 70s. I wanted to be healthy in my 70s. I wanted to be hanging out with my wife and, you know, dandling my 11th grandchild on my knee when I was 78 years old. So what I did was I've always been on tour. I've always traveled constantly all throughout my career. Every city I'd go to, I'd find the oldest iron gym I could find. Why? Because that's where the old dude's train. That's where, like, the shredded guy's train. And now I'm the old guy, right? So my wife says that, you know, sleeping with me is like holding a leather sack of ropes. I think it's a compliment. I'm not sure, you know, but I've been married decades to him, decades, but I would go to these iron gym. Better than a leather sack of lard, right? Yeah, for sure. For sure. It's like ropes. So I go to these gyms for 78 year old guys who are completely shredded. They look like, you know, old roosters. And they're, they're working out. And I would say, teach me, teach me my stroke, you know, sensei. Teach me what you do. And they would give me this advice. And I follow that advice assiduously. And so what it is is, I'm, ultimately, push pole legs. Don't use a bar. And is it push pole legs every workout? No, it's push pole legs on different days. It's not a pure bro split, but it's near on, right? Making sure that you're not getting heroic with him out of weight. You're making sure that you're using dumbbells and not bars because you can get full range of motion. You're super careful about your joints. If you have any pain in your joints, you back off. You do, for volume, you do more reps as opposed to more weight. And I always be doing it that way and dial it down the actual weight, dialing up the reps as you get older. And these are these basic ideas. So it's push pole legs and then I'm doing usually somewhere between 20 minutes and 40 minutes of zone to cardio, which I have an elliptical machine because it's super easy on the joints. And at every place, every hotel's got an elliptical machine. I've got a nice elliptical machine at home. And that's what I'm doing. And this is an hour. A lot of the time I'm doing it without headphones. It's important because you need to concentrate. To begin with, that's your most creative time. That's like taking an hour long shower. You get your best ideas. If you work out with that headphones, there's a lot of good neuroscience on that as well. And that's 445 to 545 in the morning every single day. That's the one thing I can really count on is always going to be good. Always going to be good. Do you record your workouts? Video tape my workouts. No, and any type of workout journal or is it so intuitive at this point that you're like, I really know since I'm using dumbbells and dumbbells should be consistent from place to place. I can tell you what I did on this day in 2001. Meaning you remember it? No, or maybe it's written down, maybe it's like, wait a second. Yeah, no, no, no, there's some people who are like that sort of a rainman deal. Well, for instance, people who wouldn't expect Arnold Schwarzenegger loves chess. And when I first interviewed him, I was talking to his right hand man. He said, oh, he plays chess daily with X number of people over the course of a week or two. And he keeps track of every game and every score in his head. That's amazing. So no, I'm not doing that. But I can tell you, I mean, I've got journals to go back. I write it down. And so I know what's on what day and what I did. There's a whole lot of things that I keep records of for sure, just so I understand my own progress in life, making sure I'm not making regress in life. And for some reason, I got into the pattern of writing down every single workout going back, you know, until back to my 30s. And now I'm 61 years old. So that's a lot of date books. Yeah, I work out it's going back to 16 and I still still keep them. Yeah, I don't know why I keep them, but I have them. I can tell you behaviorally why people do that. I mean, what you want is record of progress because that's one of the great secrets to human happiness. You never arrive. Arrival gives you almost nothing, but it's progress toward the goal. And this is a record of Tim's progress going all the way back to 16. It's the evidence that you're a better man than when you were 16 years old. Let's hope. Certainly not as strong as I was when I was in my 20s, but still. Yeah, no, it's fantastic. It's really a great way to start today. And there's a lot of research once again on this is especially important for mood management. So half of the population is above average and negative affect. Negative affect is strong negative manifestation of mood. And obviously if it's the media and half has to be above that and half has to be below. And I'm way above average and negative affect. I'm above average and positive affect too. Yeah, I mean, you're a mad scientist, which is typically a poet. We talked about this. Oh, we did this. You are opposed to your below average positive, below average positive, high peak negative, high peak negative. So I'm at the 90th percentile and negative mood. And there are ways, typical ways that people self-managed negative mood that are really, really bad for you. Like drugs and alcohol, like internet use, like pornography, horrible negative mood management, work of holism, awful. People distract themselves. The amygdala of the brain is what largely manages fear and anger, but the amygdala also manages attention. And so if you can distract yourself with something you can count on, like your work, what you're effectively doing is you're managing your anger and fear by redirecting the activity of the amygdala. That's right. Yeah. But there's good ways to do it, like developing your spirituality and picking up heavy things running around. So we're going to stick on the heavy things for a second here, as well as the optical because we're not even done with that. We're not even done. So we have the waking early, let's go for 30 that for me early 7 30 this morning. I was very pleased with myself after arriving from travel. On the west coast. Exactly. Exactly. It's 430 somewhere. And we've covered that briefly for zone two. Are you wearing a heart rate monitor? Are you doing the talk test? How are you tracking? Talk to the talk test. It's just keeping it as simple as possible. I tend to go insane if I'm over measured. And so that's one of the reasons I use very, very simple, you know, biometrics and very simple health monitor. I'm going to need to move up to something better at some point. But if I get too much data, I'm in trouble. I mean, it's like having seven different drafts of a piece of writing you're working on. Now what do you do? I mean, in a sense, there's data and then there's information, which you need to analyze. So there is a point of diminishing returns. Just a quick thanks to our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. Long time listeners know that I love weight training. I love it. A lot of bang for the buck. I tend to do less endurance training. I just find it so boring. But there are times when I need some endurance, some gas in the tank. For instance, each year I head from sea level in Austin to around 10,000 feet of elevation for a week long expedition with friends in the mountains. We carry a lot of weight and I need to keep up. So for months prior to that, that is where human comes in HUMA and I've used it for years. I first learned about humans endurance formula super beats sport a decade ago from a friend who is a multiple time world champion and she's not alone. More than 160 professional sports teams and college sports programs use super beats sport by human humans own clinical studies demonstrate up to an 18% increase in workout endurance. They've also shown a 7% improvement in lactate threshold and faster recovery during hit intervals high intensity interval training. And there's quite a bit of research floating around out there if you want to look for it. The formula is NSF certified for sport and uses concentrated beetroot powder with clinically studied dietary nitrates to fuel nitric oxide production and power blood flow. It drives your capacity for workout endurance and recovery because better blood flow means better workouts. So check it out, visit human dot com slash Tim. That's HUMA NN human dot com slash Tim to get 15% off of your first order of super beats sport. First time subscribers also receive a free month supply of sugar free human tart cherry gummies to support recovery and healthy inflammatory response one more time human with two ends human dot com slash Tim. I don't know about you, but with so many options for banking and investing these days also with accounts scattered all over the place, it's harder than ever to track finances. And that is why I am happy to recommend this episode sponsor monarch named best budgeting app of 2025 by the Wall Street Journal monarch brings your entire financial life together in one clean interface. Letting you see your full financial picture at a glance you can even have widgets that show you your spending and so on so that you don't have to even open the app on your phone. One person on my team has tried four other budgeting apps and said linking his accounts on monarch was by far the easiest cleanest interface, et cetera, et cetera. Another one of my employees said monarch has made it so much easier for her and her husband to be on the same page financially and to track spending as a couple. So why not get serious and get simple about getting your financial act together so you can see everything in one place before years end and get monarch. Talk test for people just very briefly Peter Tia has videos on this of himself on a stationary by demonstrating it on social media if you want to try to find them. But in effect and please tell me I'm off base with that you approach it you are able to while you're in the zone to on say an elliptical stationary bike treadmill. You're able to speak or have a conversation with very short sentences, but you don't really want to right that's exactly right zone three you're two out of breath have a normal conversation zone four you're gasping for a zone one is just you're strolling is kind of what it comes down to and your heart rate. To be in the zone to is usually around 120 beats per minute and I'll also do some periods of you know some intervals in that I'll do two or three intervals during a half hour. Zone to cardio session so I'll take it up to 160 beats per minute for a full minute to bring it back will do some of that hit training while I'm doing it. But 120 beats per minute is really really easy thing to ascertain because it's an old musician that's the speed of a susah march. Hey what susah march done done done done done done done done done done done that 120 beats per minute. That's how you know I mean when you put out your elliptical e course I think this is the lead in music is this my bump music man. Before we get to after the exercise for folks who might be interested in really diving into this number one Peter has a lot on it number two if you want to get nerdy the more fierce devices been recommended to me by folks like Andy Galpin and others there are other options but that seems to be a pretty good device. So in terms of developing if you're not a former French horn player the intuition of what is 120 or 130 beats per minute. You can do much like I've already done with say glucose readings or ketone readings I know where I am but I'm not yet there with heart rate. The more this is a nice tool for learning what it feels like to be at 120 versus 30 versus whatever it might be alright you have your workout after the workout what is your mind I get cleaned up. And that's the experience to transcendence which my path is not the only path to say everybody's got to go to mass that's not going to be effective because that's not for everybody there is a period of reflection and transcendence that's very very important for not just mood management for productivity that's going to follow and there's a lot of neuroscience behind why that is effective but for me it's also an opportunity because that's my wife gets up at six. And when I'm home I'm home that half the time I'm on tour about half the time home I'm home every week so I don't go on tour for months at a time I go on tour for days at a time which means that I've always got a flight home and that's inconvenient but that's actually part of my life protocols is making sure I spend every single weekend at home. I'm out maybe four weekends a year and so that means I have lots of days at home I have at least three or four mornings at home and we start the day at at 630 mass the two of us do that's very long. Half an hour daily mass is half an hour you know Sunday mass is an hour but you know daily mass is half and you know during the week after 30 minutes no souls are saved. According to science now so we do that and that's a period of prayer and inflection some people prefer the post in a meditation our friend Ryan Holliday does a lot with actually studying historic philosophers but you need what the ancient would call the holy hour and they would be a full hour and for me it's the holy half hour and that really works and it's really good for my relationship and it's very good for it's incredibly good for focus and concentration. So I want to bookmark just to give a shameless plug for our first conversation. Yeah for people are like oh yeah okay well I didn't grow a Catholic you didn't grow a Catholic your parents thought that your conversion was an act of youthful rebellion which it might have been it might have been but it's fair but it's stuck yeah. So if you want the backstory including some wild stories then listen to our first conversation. So I'm basically the equivalent of like a freaked out hippie who you know went to India and got converted and practiced an exotic religion for the rest of my life but my exotic religion is Catholicism. I mean depending on where you start it's pretty exotic yeah yeah yeah. So you have the holy half hour yeah I mean our routines have a lot of similarities although the flavors are slightly different we could talk about that. Probably the neuro physiological effects are the same very very similar I would imagine so after the holy half hour what happens. After the holy half hour now I've taken no nutrition except for salty water with some you know a high dose. I take high dose creatine amount of hydrate with my my workout drink. What's high dose? High dose for me is 15 to 20 grams a day. The first five is for you know muscle protein synthesis or volumization of muscles which is really good for your workout. The other is for this just exploding area of research on the biological benefits of it the neuro biological benefits of it. And for me that's really really important because you know I'm a crummy sleeper and you run to Patrick is not a lot of stuff on how creatine is really good when you don't sleep. It's also really good because I'm trying to bank neurologically four hours of mostly creativity. I have to set myself up for optimal creativity and that's one of the best ways to do it that's the best supplement that I've been able to find that affects my creativity later on in the morning. So I'm adding that to my pre workout drink taking no caffeine. Yeah. This is important. I don't take any caffeine to wake up. Huberman is right on this. This is very contested in literature about A to A adenosine and how caffeine blocks adenosine receptors. But I really believe and Huberman believes this but I find this the most compelling explanation and it absolutely works for me. I don't use caffeine to wake up. I use caffeine to focus. Because what I want is I actually want circulating the adenosine to metabolize and to clear endogenously and I want lots and lots of clarity. Plenty of open parking spots for the adenosine receptors that I can then fill two to three hours after a wake up with caffeine. And this is just madaphanil. This is just vacuuming. This is going to vacuum. Be careful with the actual madaphanil kiddos. No, no, yes, I'm saying not that. So it's vacuuming the dopamine into the prefrontal cortex. What ADHD drugs do is that they keep more dopamine than the synapse, especially in the prefrontal cortex such that you can focus. You have more concentration and you have more creativity and caffeine is great for this. A lot of people like nicotine. I don't like nicotine only because I was hopelessly addicted to cigarettes early on in my life all the way through my 20s I was a smoker I blew it. Well, a lot of people are step by step blowing it also with first microdosing nicotine and then lo and behold since it's sort of dance partner is an addictive potential with heroin. Then microdoses become something along the line of mesodoses and then before you know it, you're addicted to nicotine all nicotine all the time and you know caffeine is highly addictive as well. But it's a psychostimulant. It's better studied. It's much much easier to self-manage. You know, I get usually about 380 milligrams of caffeine. Oh, that's decent. It's decent. Holy cow. That's a that's a venti dark roast from Starbucks. I grew up a Seattle term. I mean 380 for a lot of people. If you have moderately strong coffee, that's going to be almost four cups of coffee. Yeah, yeah, and that's that's power 20 ounces of you know good. And again, the darker roasts have less caffeine. Yeah, but I like them better because I grew up on the north side of Queen Anne Hill in Seattle when there was one Starbucks. And so I've been doing that since I was in eighth grade. All right. So you have the holy half hour. Yeah. And then after the holy half hour, you haven't had any caffeine up to that point. And now it's 715 in the morning. All right. Now I'm back from now. What do you do? I'd brew the coffee. All right. And I know how to brew coffee. Now do you have the 380 in a mega dose or is that titrated over time? No, that's in a mega dose that usually it takes me about 45 minutes to drink. Oh my calf in our 45 minutes to drink. I know. Well, part of it is I've got this grizzled adrenal system. Yeah. This is my HPA axis. It's like a building falling down at this point. So you just have to donkey kick your adrenals. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Yeah. So then you brew the coffee. Yeah. Now then I make my first nutrition of the day. And the first nutrition of the day is 60 to 70 grams of protein. And protein is really important, especially with a trip to found rich source of protein for mood management. Now I'm not eating a turkey leg. I'm not, you know, like Henry the eighth. It's mostly way protein powder mixed in with non fat, unflavored Greek yogurt, which is great. And there's so many. I mean, it's like anymore. I just read that the fastest growing foods in America today are cottage cheese, Greek yogurt and way protein powder. And which is extraordinary, extraordinary. You think about it. You and I got to this much earlier back when it was harder to find Greek yogurt. And I put a little artificial sweetener in it because I'm not afraid of artificial sweetener. I get more micronutrients in it with put in walnuts and blueberries and you know, things that actually give me the micronutrients that I need. By the way, I've also taken a multivitamin at this point. I take a multivitamin every day. I've been taking a multivitamin for decade after decade after decade. And there's these papers that were coming out five years ago saying that they're not only ineffective, they're bad for you. That's all been overtaken by events. And the newer research actually says it has neurocognitive protective benefits. Take your multivitamins. And there are a lot of ways to do it. You know, sometimes they'll take a good multivitamin in the morning. Sometimes I wait later in the day and take AG1, but you need a good multivitamin. Almost everybody does. So if you, not for snickety, but detail questions because that's how my mind operates. Why no factory yogurt instead of something with fat would be better for me to be sure is that the fat bothers my stomach. So just I don't like it. It fills me up too much. It's hard to get to 65 grams of protein when you've got that much fat in the yogurt because if it's going to be just falling asleep. I only do that because it's uncomfortable to have the fat. And I'll add just a footnote for some people saying, well, say, wait a second. I thought you could only absorb 30 grams of protein at a sitting that is not quite. Yeah, it is somewhere between an old wives tale and just a statement that has been repeated so much that it's taken to be true, but it's not true. It's not true. And in fact, there is where I should say there are some data to suggest that as you get older, you actually absorb protein more effectively in a larger bolus, meaning more protein at fewer sittings. But I'm completely persuaded by the research and over the years I've experimented a lot with that in my diet just in the protocols of my eating. And what I found over the past five years in particular is that I'm most comfortable because I'm naturally genetically really lean. I'm most comfortable when I'm sub 10 body fat and the way for me to do that. Yeah, me too. I'm kidding. But it just, you know, because of my genetics, but the way that they're since I was 14, if you know that genetics don't want it, they're going to go to that battle dwarf genetics. No, man, if I had your frame, I mean, I would love that. I would be able to lift heavy, but the way to do that for me is to stay at 200 grams of protein a day. So to keep moderate calories and 200 grams of protein a day and then I can keep my body fat where I want it where I feel really good and I'm never hungry. And that's the way to do it is a really protein rich diet. And of course, now popular culture is catching up with what we've known scientifically for a pretty long time. So you get your colossus of caffeine that can follow the Holy Athar. I know everybody has to drink 380 mil grams of caffeine. You have your 60 to 70 grams of protein as described. And then you are sitting down to write, what do you do? Yeah, then I sit down to write. If I'm at home, then then I sit down to write. And there's no distractions. I mean, there's no meetings. There's no zoom. I mean, if the president of the United States or the Pope calls, there'll be a morning meeting, but that's kind of it, you know, and I've got a very quiet place. I'm not looking at email. I'm not, you know, answering text messages. I'm not looking for, I'm not reading the Wall Street Journal. And to do this with when I set myself up this way, I get four hours of productivity. And that's very unusual. If you're doing things the old fashioned way, you know, you're getting up when the sun is warm and you're having the nice big, you know, three espresso is to try to wake up and you're not optimizing your brain chemistry appropriately. You'll get two hours of creativity, max, max. That's why you know, Hemingway used to write for two hours away. Just going to bring up Hemingway also because he would leave things unfinished. He would basically system and mid paragraphs that he had momentum in starting the following day. And I suppose my question is in a world of ubiquitous interruption and notification where you have I message on your computer. You have chat, you have research that you might do concurrently with your writing. There are different ways to approach writing. How do you set yourself up, say the day before such that you can sit down without interruption or self-interruption for four hours and right. To begin with, you need to know what you're going to do the next day, the day before. You need to make a list of the things you're going to do in priority order. And the priority order is not what you like the most, but what actually requires the most concentration and creativity. So the thing you need to hit immediately, which will be the last 10% of that page you were writing. That's a really good protocol to procrastinate that last 10% because your most creative, most productive, your best quality stuff is first. And so you want to leave the last to be the first the next day and that way you've got consistent creativity. If I'm running a column, I'm on deadline every single week for a column and it's 1200 words a week of science about human happiness and stressful. Sounds like a way to make yourself happy. Yeah, I know if I'm on the hunted. But doing that, if I sit down and write it, the kicker is always going to be worse than the lead. And so the kicker is always the first thing in the morning someday, right? So the kicker is as good as the lead or better because I'm leaving it so that my, my brain chemistry is optimized to the product that I'm trying to create. That was a very good protocol from, from Hemingway, his problem was he was a drunk. And when you're drunk, what you're doing is you're borrowing tomorrow's dopamine tonight. You're borrowing as a friend of mine, put it all so you're borrowing happiness from tomorrow. And, and the reason is because your dopamine is going to be below the baseline and you're going to have anhedonia in the morning. Anhedonia is the characteristic of clinical depression, which is a deficit of dopamine meaning you an inability to feel pleasure. And it's below the baseline when you're hungover below the baseline when you've popped it really hard and you're getting the trough the next day. If you drink at night and if you want to be productive the next morning, this morning starts last night and it starts by going to bed at a reasonable time sober, which we'll probably get to at the end of this conversation. That's why he had to suffer a good bed sober. Well, also because if you need any, and this is my kind of repeated realization that should be top of mind all the time, which is if you wear an oral ring, it would bend. The one conclusion that you will come to over and over again is if you drink before bed, even if you are for bed, your sleep is garbage. Your sleep, their architecture is so messy. So for me now, for whatever reason at this age of 48, even once I had one martini with my brother, I don't seem that much. We went out to a nice speak easy, had a drink and just shattered my sleep. It was shocking to me, kind of embarrassing. The older you get, the older you get. The older you get, and the truth is that young people are figuring out what people my age didn't when I drank very heavily in my 20s and 30s. It's what we did. I was a musician. It's what we did. We knew it wasn't good for us, but the truth in the matter is that all euphoric, if it's euphoric, if it gets you buzzed is neurotoxic. And you have to be careful applying neurotoxic substances to yourself because you're going to pay a price for that. Now, there's a cost-benefit analysis to anything. I don't drive the safest car. You know, I don't drive a car that if it crashes, I will be completely safe no matter what. I drive something I like. I'm making a cost-benefit analysis. But the truth is that many people are not, they think it's costless to get buzzed. It's not. It just isn't. Your routine, I'll just pause us there, is very, very similar to mine. Tell me more. Right now, I'm day three of segueing into ketosis. We're always producing ketones, but I'm probably just because I've done this a lot. I'm probably at right now, like 1.2 millimolars in terms of blood concentration of, like, band-hydroxybutyrate. You like ketosis. I love how it feels in terms of mental acuity. I also, because I have neurodegenerative diseases in my family, and metabolic dysfunction, see doing, let's just call it four to six weeks of nutritional ketosis, once or twice a year, to appear to be very cheap insurance. What's your Aprilie profile? Aprilie 3-4. You're 3-4? Yeah, 3-4. There are other risk factors. I also have relatives who are 3-3, but none the less developed early Alzheimer's. I'm like, "Yeah, you know what? I like how I feel. I need less sleep when I'm in ketosis. I naturally wake up very, very alert, which is an unusual for me." I wanted to mention that first, just to set the stage in a way. I, for decades, did minimum 30 grams of protein within 30 minutes of waking up. I still think that is a great option. For me now, for a host of reasons that I could get into, but I'll keep it simple. I almost always do intermittent fasting, where I am fasting until 2 or 3 p.m. in the afternoon. But when I wake up, this morning I woke up at 7.30, and I was preparing for this conversation, so I wanted to block out a few hours to do that. But woke up had, now this is mildly stimulating, but I wanted to have a little bit, because I'm also jet lagged and arrived around midnight last night. Had some cacao with a little bit of cacao butter mixed in, just enough under three grams of net carbs. Because you're keeping your net carbs the 30 a day, probably right? Keeping my net grams to, for me personally, right now, under 10 grams. Under 10, that I'm getting into ketosis fast. Under 10, yeah. Especially if I am already adapted to intermittent fasting, so that I'm doing 16 to 18 hours of fasting with a short, 68 hour window of eating. Once you get to 16 to 18 hours, especially if you're doing some exercise, let's just say in the morning or any other point, you're depleting your liver glycogen, and you're going to get into the habit, your metabolic machinery will develop the habit and the capability of producing ketones, even when you are eating carbohydrates in that limited window of eating. So you don't take exhaustion as ketones. I will occasionally on a day like today, because I know that I'm on effectively, let's call it day two and a half of segwing into ketosis. I think my natural production is roughly where I mentioned. My natural production right now is probably around 0.9. I took, let me just back up. So I wake up at 7.30. I have the cacao plus some cacao butter. Then I sit in, I have a hot tub. This is like one of my indulgences. It's not actually that expensive, but I sit in a hot tub and I'm meditated for 10 minutes with an app, the way app. Henry Shookman is my spirit animal. Amazing mindfulness slash Zen focus practice. Did that 10 minutes. That's it. Got out. It is pretty chilly right now in Austin gets down to I think last night was 37 low got into my pool for a few minutes and got out cold shower, came back in and then sat down. And this was my kind of deep work prep, right? No interruptions. Then there's non trivial similarity. You want I'm trying to do Euro cognitively. Yeah, exactly. And then on the way here, about 15 minutes prior to arriving, knowing my start time, there are a few other bells and whistles that I threw in nutritionally in terms of supplements and so on earlier in the morning, but had one nitro cold brew from Starbucks. And about 15 milliliters of exogenous ketones. In this case, it's BHB bonded to one three beauty and dial, which I do have some reservations about long term chronic use, I think could be liver toxic. But I'm doing it very intermittently. And so for the let's just call it four days of segue into nutritional ketosis, I will use exogenous ketones sometimes as a boost. And that's it. So that was that was the most working great for you. And here's a big takeaway. I think you got to that through experimentation. You didn't get that by you know, getting it off the internet. You learned a lot about these different variety of protocols. And you tailored it and tried it and over a number of years came upon what worked best for you. And it's exactly what I've done to and everybody watching needs to treat their life like a lab. And experimentation is king experimentation is the precursor to good experimentation is information is scientific information and then it's getting experience through the experimentation and figuring out what your own protocol actually is. Because as they say in the ads, your results may differ. And so for me, if I'm weight training, I will typically weight train late afternoon. That's just always been my preference. But if we had not had this podcast today, I would have done zone two training in the morning, right. Exactly. So after the meditation before you eat before I eat like faster. I do like fasting, especially when I'm trying to get into ketosis or intermittent fasting because it'll help me to plead that the glycogen store glycogen at a faster rate. If it is too high, just for people who may be interested in intermittent fasting or ketosis, if the exertion level is too high or if it is resistance training, sometimes it will spike glucose in such a way that makes it a little counterproductive if you're trying to get into ketosis. So the zone cause your stress is perfect or yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And you're already going to have increased cortisol in the morning, you need that to wake up. And also with caffeine oftentimes, you'll see a pretty noticeable spike in glucose. So I try not to compound it by doing the weight training in the morning. At this point in the cycle of getting into ketosis, do you have headaches? I had a mild headache yesterday. I will say that the biggest cheat for me in terms of getting into ketosis quickly and relatively painlessly is training my body to intermittently fast. And I have been in ketosis dozens of times in my life and I've done extended period six months in ketosis and so on, particularly when I was actually training for sports, which seems counterintuitive, but I was doing something called the cyclical ketogenic diet, which is really interesting. When I was training for the national Chinese kickboxing championships in 99, that was an amazing system for cutting weight, getting lean, but also maintaining or adding some muscle mass. In any case, people can look it up, confusing your system in a cycle, right? You're staying out of equilibrium in a way, right? You're definitely doing that while you're doing with the CKD, people can look it up. There are many people who have pioneered this borrowy proskwali with the antibiotic diet. They're different names for it. Dandishan way back in the day also talked about this, but you are providing a short window once a week where you are in my case doing a glycogen depletion weight training workout. And then you are spiking the hell out of your carbohydrate intake for, let's call it, 15 hours, something like that. And you are really piling in carbohydrate and you are leveraging insulin as a storage hormone and anabolic signaling pathway to ensure that you can pack on some muscle while you are in on average, which is very, very hard to do otherwise. I don't do that anymore, because it's just too much brain damage, frankly. Well, there's a lot to think about. That becomes a full-time job. Is the protocol becomes the full-time job? Yeah, which is not the point, right? You look in my case, I'm sure, in your case, the protocol is in service of life. Life is not in service of the protocol. The protocol is supposed to work for you. You're not supposed to work for your protocol. And we're not going to be labor this point. But in a world, and people is a great Chuck Palinic quote that I don't want to get wrong, people can look it up. But basically says, and a big brother isn't watching you, he's entertaining you, entertaining you to death. And just talking about the sort of modern digital ecosystem and the role of technology, et cetera. But suffice to say, if you can single task for four hours from a competitive advantage perspective, like you're not using pharmaceutical grade. Yeah, you know, it's like a stimulants. You're in an elite group. Absolutely group, and you absolutely can do it with proper health and exercise disciplines. Many of you know how deeply I love Japan and its culture of unwavering dedication to craft, refinement, commitment to continuous improvement. But why do I bring this all up? 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They'll just say to your point managing the physiology had a great conversation with Dave bazooki recently is the founder co founder and CEO of Roblox and he is wafer the largest while their foundation is the largest funder of metabolic. Psychiatry research including ketogenic therapy which includes Chris Palmer at Harvard and that stuff super interesting it doses for me it is like taking medicinal and all of the kind of short term powerful but long term penalty. drugs that I've tested have you ever tried if you've ever taken a select to start a re-uptake inhibitor an SSRI I have never taken one for antidepression I have taken what is similar it's not exactly a necessary but I have used trasodone for sleep trasodos monocyclic right it's a really early early generation antidepressant it is effectively a failed antidepressant because of people sleep that was repurposed as a sleep drugs my understanding. Unisom was supposed to make you not sneeze and it's still an accident actually was supposed to make you was an instrument that was repurposed as a sleeping pill. Yeah there you go so that is it but why do you ask about us are the reason I asked that is because a lot of people will say that they find that proper keto diet is better than an SSRI to for the serotonin effects. Oh yeah I mean if you look at people should look up Chris Palmer I had a conversation with him as well but for mood stabilization mood elevation but not in a peak and trough type of way I have found nothing better than the ketogenic. That's interesting so for mood management this is fundamental it is it is without exception the number one with no close second. So poets take note yeah poets take note and maybe you should just. We have to revisit this people like what is this bad scientist but what started we want to just. They're four affect profiles and affect profiles mean the intensity of your negative and positive emotion. You're born with this so there are times in your life when you have more positive emotionality or more intense negative emotionality depending on circumstances but this is your baseline state. You can be above average positive and above average intensity negative emotion those are the mad scientists that's me there are some people who. High highs and low lows I'm all about it's great or it sucks and it's impossible to be married to a mad scientist just. My wife reminded me of that this morning. There's you can be above average positive and below average intensity negative these are cheerleaders these are the happiest people they have some weaknesses they tend to be bad bosses. Because they won't accept bad news and they can't give criticism like no bad vibes man there's some people who are low low they're just low affect people these are the judges. They make really good surgeons you don't want somebody to cut you open and go oh my god that's not what you want you want somebody is going to get. I can take that out or you know nuclear power reactor operators or something who are really low low means low positive low negative low positive they're low negative got it. That's right wave is flatter they're steady man I mean they're not freaking out about anything and then there are those who are. Low intensity positive emotion but high intensity negative emotion and these are the poets and the poets of the most interesting and the reason is because they tend to be the most creative and most romantic. And part of that is because there's this research all neuroscience research is contested. I should preface this. But there's a part of the limbic system called the ventral lateral prefrontal cortex that is involved in your rumination when you're depressed. Ruminative depression. Ruminative sad depression is a heavy activity of the ventral lateral prefrontal cortex. You also use it when you're ruminating on a business plan or writing a symphony and when you're ruminating on another person because you're falling in love. And that's why poets tend to be depressive creative and romantic. Tim Ferris my friends. This is different. That's me in a nutshell. Yeah and so the whole point is that you need no matter who you are you need to appropriately manage your mood. The essence of self management is mood management starts with knowledge about who you are and they can people go to my website and take a test and figure out who they are. Which profile you are. And then you got to figure out what you need to do in mood management. You need to elevate positive emotion or do you need to manage. You don't need to eliminate negative emotion. You don't want to do that. You'll be dead in a week. Negative emotion is really important for protection. Sadness anger discussed fear, but you want to manage it so it does not disregulating. So it's not exaggerated and there are lots of techniques for doing it. But you got to know what your bigger challenge is by knowing yourself. Then you can proceed to some of these protocols that we're talking about here for appropriate mood management based on your challenges is how it works for you. It's managing positive up and managing negative down in ketosis is really really good for both. Yeah, I would say for folks who may fit the profile or who are curious about my personal experience that repeatedly I mean I've done this now dozens of times it is very consistent. It completely removes the lowest 50% of my negative and bumps my positive baseline up 20%. This is really interesting because this might be the poet's protocol ketosis might be the poet's protocol for me. It's what I eat how I admit self administer caffeine and it's actually how I do my exercise when I'm super fasted first thing in the morning is incredibly efficacious for managing down my negative affect without accidentally managing down my positive affect. Yeah, I want to point out another thing about your protocol, which is by having caffeine later. This is my experience because I love caffeine. Yeah, I love stimulants after very careful enough. If I start later, guess what? What a incredible slide of hand trick I consume less why because I started later right and no crash. Yeah, so I will start later and your total caffeine will be less wise as relevant because the half life of caffeine is very long. And if you have too much caffeine early in the day, even if you stop by noon, it will still impact your sleep, sleep architecture and so on. Yeah, and the older you get, so the half life, the metabolism of caffeine, it changes over the course of your life and the half life extends one of the things that I find for friends of mine who are like me in their 60s. And they'll be like, I'm sleeping. I sleep like crap because I'm old. I say, yeah, probably because you have an espresso after lunch. And when you were 30, you could metabolize the caffeine effectively. The half life was probably eight hours. And that was probably 14 hours. And it's still in your system bothering you when you're trying to go to sleep at night. Take out that after lunch espresso, move your caffeine, stop drinking caffeine after eight or nine in the morning. It's like magic. Yeah, it isn't great. Well, I've actually I reserve coffee caffeine like an hydro cold brew for days like today. Yeah. Otherwise, I'm using Guillermo Maté or cacao or puer tea or some combination thereof. You like Guillermo Maté? You like how it makes you feel? I love it. It's very smooth. I love it. It's a smooth buzz as we used to say in high school. Guillermo Maté is the smoothest of the smooth. It's just also the most inconvenient. I like to drink at the Argentine way with the wood cup and the metal straw that gets it hot, exactly. Which is probably a great way to give yourself throat cancer, side note or mouth cancer. We'll find out. But yeah, we'll find out. Track the RG's there. There's people are looking at that very closely. All right. We probably should talk about the meaning of life. Small topics. Just a little thing, you know. So I've been thinking about for five years. I want to know why after your many books, author of 15 books, build the life you want, go out there with Oprah Winfrey, from strength to strength, which was my first introduction to your books, which is an exceptional book, finding success, happiness and deep purpose in the second half of life. And now the meaning of your life, finding purpose and an age of emptiness. Why write this book? So when I came back to academia, I was gone for a long time. I'm a third generation academic, actually. My dad was a professor. His father was a professor. This is the vortex of life. I tried to escape it by being in music all the way through my 20s, but it sucked me in. Right. And so this is my natural habitat. But I left for almost 11 years because I was the CEO of a big thing tank in Washington, DC called the American Enterprise Institute. And when I was gone, I wasn't paying attention to academia. I left it at the end of 2008. I came back in 2019. My memory of my academic experience going back, you know, intergenerational is the happiest place in the world. Everybody has the best time at college. They make all their friends. They get a bunch of adventures. They get exposed to weird new ways of thinking. People loved college. And most people say I was happier in college than when I left college. I come back in 2019 and it's like the plague had gone through my village. It was going completely different. And in point of fact, clinical depression among adults under 30, especially highly educated adults under 30 college graduates, especially the Lee Colleges had tripled clinical depression up by 3x anxiety generalized anxiety 2x. It's not because of a lack of therapy on the contrary. The number of therapists has gone up by about 4x. And so something's not working. This is what we call in my business as a psychogenic epidemic, which is a simple idea with fancy words because that's what we get tenure into. And what it means is there's something that's contagious and creates suffering and has no biological origin, no known biological origin. That's a psychogenic epidemic. So eating disorders and cutting and many things they'll spread around create tons of misery, but they're not biological in origin. And so those are harder nuts to crack. The depression anxiety epidemics that we see today are a psychogenic. And so we need to understand what's behind them. And so when I see the data, I said about my research agenda saying, OK, what's going on? And that's a kind of a Sherlock Holmes kind of a forensic behavioral science experiment. And that's kind of how I do my work. That's the most interesting things to do is to figure out this mystery using the tools or my stock and trade, you know, that suffered through to get my PhD, you know, it's applying them a little bit. And one of the things that I do is I just start talking to people and doing a content analysis of what they tell me and see the words that start to pop up. Those are the clues, right, because that words will start popping up. And when you do that, the word that kept popping up again and again and again was, I don't know what I meant to do. My life feels meaningless. And sure enough, when you do the survey work and ask people if their life feels meaningless, that's the predictor of depression anxiety. And so we have lots and lots of data out there. I mean, lots of pop arguments about why, you know, so many young people are depressed today. And you know, people my age are like, 'cause they're entitled babies. They're not tough enough. And people who are my kids age, who are in their 20s, they'll say it's because boomers wrecked everything and made houses too expensive and spoiled the environment or something. But people have been saying that stuff forever. There's nothing new about that. These psychological effects that we're seeing are new. They're really, really new things. So that's not it. Or there's a lot of people and you've talked a lot in your show about technology. And a lot of people say that technology is screwing us up. And technology is really has a big role in what I found. But the problem is not the technology per se, but what we're not getting because of the technology is what we're actually missing. What is it actually that we want that we're not getting? You know, when you have somebody who is deeply malnourished, you don't talk about what's actually creating the malnutrition. You might, that's important. But what they're not getting. It's like, okay, you're eating all carbohydrates. It's not that carbohydrates are inherently bad, but the dose makes the poison. And by virtue of only eating carbohydrates, you're getting any amino acids. But the problem is your protein you're not getting for pizza, 'cause what it comes down to. So I wanted to find the protein that was underneath this whole thing. And the content analysis of these interviews is like, what I meant to do, life feels meaningless. I don't know the meaning of life. And I'm like, that's too big. That's too big. That's like a big philosophical thing, but I couldn't avoid it is what it came down to. So over the past five years, I've been writing a book about, okay, what is the meaning of life? Where do you find it? And how do you have to live differently so that you can actually find it in modern life? And that's what this book is. And the most interesting part of this was, you know, people say, where do you find the meaning of life? Like church, the beach, Italy. It's Trenton, New Jersey. No offense to Trenton, that's not a lot of time there. Seattle, my hometown. We know where you go to find it. And then you have to do certain things. You know, I'm a very protocols guy. And so what this book is, the sex protocols for once you know where the meaning of your life is. What you have to do to go there and get it is what it comes about. So the beginning of the book is, okay, what's the meaning of meaning? Because it's too big. It is big. The second is where you find it. And the third thing is how do you have to live differently? That's what this book is. Let's start with definitions. That's how I like to roll. And that's the most important thing that scientists almost never do. You know, throughout a term and then not to find it. So the meaning of life has been, you know, discussed forever. But the best philosophical and psychological definitions, they disassemble it into its component parts. So the way that you and I've talked about happiness in the past is that happiness is a combination of enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. So meaning is a macro nutrient of happiness. And when that's missing, that's why you have a happiness problem. So that's the beginning of this whole thing. Meaning in turn has macro nutrients, has component parts to it as well. Psychologists will refer to them as coherence, purpose, and significance. Coherence is why things happen the way they do. You have to have a theory of why things happen the way they do, or you won't know the meaning of your life. Meaning how life, why life is always made and things are happening. Like why? So is that picking, I don't want to dislocate the sharing of the three, but just to maybe we'll come back to it. Is that coming up with or adopting a story that is enabling? Yeah, it's adopting a story that actually explains things so that life is not inherently random. Okay, but it doesn't need to be objectively accurate. No, no, no, no. It's just a, it's your way of seeing things, your understanding of the world is putting things in context and so things kind of make sense. Otherwise is this random walk through life, which is a definition of meaninglessness. For some people, the model, which is an imperfect model at best, but it's a model nonetheless, it's a physics that explains that is religion. For some people, it's pure on science. For some people, it's conspiracy theories, why things happen the way they do. But those are different sort of models that explain this. Now, you can also have a hybrid model, which I do, you know, religion and science and all this kind of good stuff. But you got to do the work to figure out the physics of that, why things happen the way they do. So coherence. That's coherence. Is figuring out why do things happen in my life? Right. Why do things happen the way they do? You know, why are things happening all the time? The second is purpose and people often think purpose and meaning of the same thing they're not. Purpose is a subcomponent of meaning. It is why am I doing what I'm doing? You know, why am I doing all these weird things every single day? And that has to do with goals and direction. If you don't have goals and direction in your life, everybody has said this. I mean, there's like Napoleon Hill said this and Dale Carnegie said this. You got to have an endpoint in Spanish. There's a great word called El Rumbo. Rumbo means in English, it doesn't have a lot of significance. It's a navigational term that means rumb line, which is where you're going. It's the Euclidean path from where you are to where you're going. And you have to have a rumb line if you're going to make any progress. You're going to have any goals and any directions, which you need to have. It doesn't mean that you have to be linearly making progress. But you have to have an idea of what that line might be. That's El Rumbo, even if the endpoint changes. Exactly. So that's why you need an intention. And that's what purpose is all about. Why am I doing what I'm doing? It's the second why question. The why part is really important, as we'll see in a second. The third is significance, which is why does my life matter? Why does my life matter? And if the answer is it doesn't, that's a problem. Or I don't know, that's not good enough. People need to have a concept of why your life matters. And the great ways of answering that question are having kids and being married and believing that God loves you. And all kinds of ways to have that significance question answered. So there's a in my work in the book, there's a test on where you are in the journey to answering those questions, how close you are, how much you're looking. So that's presence in search. If you're looking looking looking like you're a surgery, you're a total seeker. So your search score is going to be through the roof. Now where you are finding score may not be the presence, that's presence, right? And what happens over the course of life is that people who search more, their present score tends to go up, but it might not be that high. So my present score is very moderate. Could you explain this to some more time for me? Could you just start that over? So there's two ways to kind of measure where you are in this journey of finding meaning, a searching and finding for meaning, the two ways to do it are what's called search and presence. Search is how intensively you're looking to answer these why questions. You know, why do things happen to me? Why am I doing what I'm doing and why is my life matter? That search and some people are intense seekers like you, Tim, you're an intense seeker. This show is an exercise in search, right? And part of it is because this is not just a new hack for getting better biceps. This is a new way of trying to understand why we're alive. That's what the show is, kind of the theme of the show. It's why I listen to the show. This is why I learn things because I'm a seeker too. But then how successful you are is your presence score, search and presence. Presence is, ah, I have answers that are satisfactory to me. As you get older if you seek your presence score should go up. And mine certainly has. So as a presence, just to the presence of meaning, make sure I'm understanding it is one is seeking an answer. And then presence is accepting is having something is satisfactory. All right, got it. It's having satisfactory. Now, there's some people who have sky high present scores and really low search scores. Those are people who like those fortunate individuals who are born going, yep, I know. I'm not going to leave my own down. I'm going to leave my own town. It's awesome hair. What do we need to do? I'm going to marry my high school sweetheart. I don't work in my daddy's business. And I'm going to go to the church I grew up in and they're very, very stable. We think of these as conservative individuals. Dispositional conservatives, they tend to have low search and high presence. Right. And to be clear, this is not, this is not political, political. It might be, but that's not really the point. I'm talking about dispossitional conservatism is conserving good things that preceded you. And why, are they good things? Because they give you a meaning of life. It's kind of what it comes down to. On the other hand, you might be somebody who's a seeker, seeker, seeker, seeker, seeker, seeker. And you don't find it very much. And I'm a very moderate in presence. It's higher than it used to be. My presence of meaning was in the seller when I was in my 20s for sure. And in my 60s, it's much, much higher for sure. What do you attribute the improvement to as being alive and actually searching a lot and looking at data and optimizing and trying to live a life on purpose is self-managing? I mean, I'm a behavioral scientist because I want answers. And I want answers for me. And so I'm looking for the biggest questions to at least address the biggest questions of my life. That's why I do what I do for a living. My life is an experiment and a pure on revolving adventure. So I'm curious if I can just interject for a second about the present piece specifically because I think many people listening to the show will self-identify as seekers. But there are traps along the way as you identify as a seeker. And I talk about these in the book. And I'll tell one quick anecdote. And then I'd love to hear how you have improved or whether it's just been maybe not a passive but something that is unfolded for you, the presence piece specifically. I remember talking to a very, very experienced psychedelic therapy facilitator who has been doing it for many decades, thousands and thousands of different people in sessions. And I don't miss a story, which they said is common and becoming more common that people will come in. And after their session, they'll say, yeah, I was experiencing so much joy, this beautiful light, this love in this session. But I kept wondering when I was going to do the real work, when I was going to do the hard work. And the way the facilitator explained it was in a sense more and more so she's running into people who are in pursuit of this durable contentment, satisfaction, joy. When they experience it in these sessions, they're like, yeah, get this out of the way so I can do the hard work to reach the joy. But they're just pushing aside all the joy as they continue their endless seeking. They're just not going to take yes for an answer. Right. So I'm wondering how you learn to take yes as an answer. Yeah. So it's not easy because when you're a chronic seeker, there's always something more. There's always something new. You can't be there yet. Right. And so the answer to this actually comes, I have two of my kids in Marines. And so I have one enlisted Marine. I have one officer in the Marine Corps. And my daughter is a second lieutenant in the Marine Corps. And she's right now she's in Quantico and she's going through the basic school, you know, getting ready to do her MOS. She wants to be a signals intelligence officer. My son was enlisted. He was a scout sniper. He was in a scout sniper platoon at a camp Pendleton. And that's a super interesting and dangerous job. And he led a lot as a non-commissioned officer. He led a lot of guys. What they train Marines to do in leadership is to get to 80% knowledge and then choose and stop looking. Now that's really really important because you're going to be paralyzed if you're trying to get to 100% knowledge. You're never going to have to do this. Which is what the peer seeker mentality does. If you want to seek and get higher presence, you need to go to 80%. And now how do you get to 80%? You get to 80% by saying, I'm pretty sure this is right. And this is right enough that I'm going to turn my attention to another dimension on this. And that means friends. If you're in love, you should get married. That's what that means. Wow. That means if you're in love and you know each other and you think that within three to five years, you really could be best friends. And you have certain stability of values. Stop looking. Get married. Why? Because the longer you don't get married, the longer you're in search for your soulmate, the more you're putting off the best thing in your life. You're postponing the best thing in your life. Marriage is the best thing in life for most people. I mean, a bad marriage, the worst thing in life, right? But for most people, for men and women, all this fiction about the fact that marriage is good for men, but bad for women is all nonsense. Brad Wilcox's research at Virginia is completely clear on this. It's better for everybody. Being in love and living with the person with whom you're in love for the rest of your life is great. But you're not going to get that if you're trying to get to 99% awareness. If you're going to search all the way to the point because you'll never get that, you're going to have an argument. You're going to have a disagreement. You're going to have doubts. You're going to digest something in a weird way and think maybe I'm not in love. And the same thing is true with your faith. What am I going to practice? Get to 80% awareness and choose. And then decide that that's what you're actually going to do. Use the marine rule of leadership. And then the search can actually lead to presence. Okay. This is all interesting terrain, which is why I was looking forward to this conversation a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. And of course, as I said before we started recording, I was like, we're not going to suffer from a lack of topics to talk about. I want to come back to the coherence purpose, significance, macro nutrients of meaning for a moment, just in quick review coherence. Why do things happen in my life, right? Having a story for that that you commit to in a sense. That's purpose. And then why does my life matter significance? Looking at my peer group, my friends, a lot of people in my audience, it seems like number three. Why does my life matter is where people struggle the most? There's a lot of them in part. We can talk about the dozens of factors at play. I'm sure. But for some people, and I have some thoughts on this. But for some younger people, it's I don't know what to do because AI is going to take all the jobs. Right. And I don't know therefore how my contributions will matter. I will become less significant. I'll become less significant. The climate is irretrievably fucked, which I don't actually believe is the case, but the lot of damage. They have certainly heard that a lot of damage is done. They've been taught that. Right. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Right. Nuclear Armageddon. That is actually on the list of existential threats, one of the scary ones in my opinion. Therefore, I don't know how to conclude that my life matters. How did you personally arrive at an answer to this question? Or how do you suggest people explore unpacking that? I have some thoughts. I'll just rather than bearing the lead. I'll just throw it out there, which is take the time to not just study people who do huge things in short periods of time, but also study people who commit to things that take longer than their lifetimes, like scientists. Like clergy clergy by simply extending the time horizon, the spectrum of options opens up quite a bit, but I would love to hear you. That's a very good point. That's a very good point, but there's a compatible point with that, which is stop looking for your significance of the macro level, start looking at the micro level, which is your love relationships around you. This is where people feel significance. People feel significance by having children. People feel significance by getting married or adopting children as I did. I did both. You know, we did it by markets and by biology. And people feel significance by working through their religious tendencies to try to understand their relationship with the divine. This is how most people find significance. You don't find significance by getting a million Instagram followers. You will never find significance by doing that, but that's indeed what we're encouraged to do. You won't find significance by an adequate kind of stable significance by being the world's greatest angry activist. And that's the cult that's actually going on on college campuses all the time, the cult of activism, which is kind of a substitute religion. Significance comes from love. Love is the essence of significance. And it's who my love and who loves me. That's what it comes down to. And you know, if the answer is my spouse, my children, my parents, my friends, my creator. Those are the big answers that people actually get, but you got to do the work. You got to make the commitments and do the work. And a lot of people today, one of the things that actually find in this book is a lot of young people today, don't have those micro commitments. And they're trying to establish macro significance, which is a big problem. You're chasing your tail. It's unstable. And it's probably not even real in a lot of cases. You mentioned something in passing that I think is really important. At least I've come to believe it's helpful to at least try to unpack each person for themselves substitute for religion. So you mentioned this cult of the angry activist and activism has its place for sure. There are certain things that you can. I'm glad we got some kindness anger for, but over the long term, it's not a clean fuel. So this substitute for religion. There's a place called El Arroyo here, which is famous for its signs that it puts out front their books that collect these now. I think it's called El Arroyo. El Arroyo means the brook means extreme. Exactly. Like La Coche Arroyero for people who might have spent time in Mexico. That's a long one anyway. By the way, El Arroyo is a surname in English is Brooks. Oh, yeah, there you go. Look at that. In German, it's Bach. Yeah. As a performer musician, I say coincidence. So the reason I bring up this joint in Austin is because they have these signs out front that are very funny that have been collected in books since like what if so I milk is just no introducing itself in Spanish right like very funny stuff. They put a lot of one is if one of them is if someone is vegan and does crossfit, which do they tell you about first, which I thought was pretty good. And this ties into I believe it was something David Foster Wallace said tragic character brilliant on so many levels, but in effect and people could track this down I put in my newsletter one point. But that we all worship something. And task number one is figuring out what you worship. That's his. Yeah, we're talking about that right. Right. So if it's not religion, it's going to be something else. Is it money? Is it fame? We talked about this a bit. We did the four idols. That's exactly pleasure. That's where I landed for better and for worse. And I'm wondering it seems to me that religion belief in the divine might be another way to put it is almost genetically programmed in humans. That's an anthropological empirical regularity. So what we find is that anthropologists including paleo anthropologists find there's no civilization that they've ever encountered that doesn't worship right there individuals who don't worship, but there are no cultures that don't have a religious foundation to them we're built for that. So if we're looking at taking a closer look at that if people want to make the implicit explicit the subconscious conscious, which I think is really important. As folks are gravitating to these pseudo religions, whether it's CrossFit, veganism, ketogenic, Harvard, Bitcoin, you name it famous famous university right now, whatever it might be. So trying to put that on one's radar, I think is helpful. But then the question is, okay, if this is hardwired, if this might actually be a constitutional psychological requirement. How do you satisfy the requirement if you are not going to adopt an organized religion? So I've looked at a lot for me. This is very complicated for me. I feel like I've made a lot of progress for myself, but I'd love to hear you. So this is a question of not a religion, but of transcendence exactly. Transcendence is the phenomenon in which we move from the me-self to the I-self in the words of Willie James, the father of psychology. The I-self is looking out and including looking up and standing in awe. The me-self is looking in the mirror and thinking about yourself. What we need to actually find meaning to find significance. Paradoxically, it's to look less at ourselves. Significance, the sense of significance, comes from being, this is really paradoxical, and yet everybody will understand it when I say it. To feel significance, you need to be less significant. You need to make yourself less significant. Now, I had this experience where at my university, the most popular class arguably is astronomy one. And they're not astronomers. I mean, they're like English majors and business majors, et cetera. And they love the astronomy class. They flock to it. There's lines for the astronomy class. So I finally ask a student, "Why do you love that astronomy?" One class so much. She's like, "I don't know." But I go into the morning, Thursday morning at 9 o'clock, and it's 90 minutes class, and I'm bumped out because I just had an argument with my mom, and I think I'm breaking up with my boyfriend, and I've got to be on a test, which at Harvard is like-- You're excommunicated from the church of Harvard. I go in at 9, and at 1030 I come out, and I say, "I'm a speck on a speck on a speck." And I'm at peace. That's transcendence. That's what it is. This is standing out. You've had Dacker Keltener on your show before? No. He's one of the great psychologists of our time. He teaches at Berkeley. And he has a book called, "AWE." You know, I thought I recognized the name because I was just reading that book. It's a great book. I was just reading that book just a few months ago. It's a stand in awe in the eye, self, looking out, in awe of the universe, things bigger than you. And there's two dimensions of transcendence. The first is to transcend upward, and the other is to transcend outward, which is why worship of the divine, spiritual and religious experiences do this, and also service to others. That's why they both have this kind of transcendent metaphysical experience that people actually get. And that's why when you see moral beauty, somebody serving somebody else, it gives you that red-deezer, the psychologist, who, by the way, is Rain Wilson's uncle. Yeah. The world's leading expert in moral elevation and the physiological impact of moral elevation. Rain is very philosophical also. He's great. He's great friend. We're great friends. We grew up five miles apart from each other and see how they're the same age. We didn't know each other as kids, but we bonded over, you know, watching Gilligan's Island on Channel 11 when we were in fifth grade or something. And it's really important to keep in mind that there are ways to transcend, and there are some really well-established ones to do it. I got to master every day. It's a venerable way to experience transcendence. And there are other ways to experience transcendence. I'm not going to speak to the metaphysics of who's cosmically right. That's a completely different conversation. I don't know. But I do know when it comes to transcendence because that's research that I've done. And Lisa Miller has done that. She teaches at Columbia. She does neuroscience and social psychology at Columbia. She's the world's leading expert on how the brain requires transcendence. How you get experiences that are completely inaccessible unless you experience transcendence. Lots of ways to do it. You know, study the Stoics and live according to their dictates. Walk the Brahman Mahorta an hour in the morning without devices. Starting before dawn, practice of apostinum meditation. Listen to the works of Johann Sebastian Bach and stand in awe of the greatest composer who ever lived. Or what a mess. All right. I want to tee this up. I didn't know your answer was going to be, but this is an area. It is one of a few areas that have been of greatest interest and focus for me for the last. Well, one could argue since 2000 probably 12, but it might even predate that particularly I would say in the last five years. And for people who are interested in digging into this and I suggest that almost everyone should be very deeply interested. You mentioned the book all. There's also some fantastic writing and articles out of Johns Hopkins related to awe. And if all seems to abstract, I mean, you could think of it as wonder. You could think of it also as self transcendence. And I'm going to be shooting myself in the foot a little bit because I just wrote 10 pages on this that I need to refine before putting on my blog. But people think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs as a pyramid. And at the top, you have self actualization. In fact, the pyramid and that strict hierarchy were created by consultants and other people who commercialized the writings of Maslow who later revised that do have self transcendence at the top. And he talked about it much later in his career. Much later because he got more religious as he got older. People get more religious as they get older. They believe less than Santa Claus and more in God as they get older. They get older. They believe more death too. And life is messy and they come to terms with that. And Scott very Kaufman talks a lot about this. You know, the guy who is sort of the master of the dark triad and a lot of pathologies. But he's also really good on how to ask about the dark triad. Oh, yeah. I've written a lot about the dark triad. It's like a great fantasy novel. It's like anybody who wants to know that that's your first husband anyway. I'm going to have to leave that alone. I'm going to resist the temptation on the show just for a second. So this is important because self transcendence is something that tends to happen a little bit later. But it's not incompatible with lower order needs. Do you mind if I just play for a second? Because I think it's the point you're driving. Let me ride the ketones and caffeine for a moment here. All right. So the all self transcendence wonder. It seems perhaps abstracted might seem hand wavy for people who have already achieved success. I don't think that's true at all. And in fact, the happiest people, happy isn't exactly the right word. But the people who see most at peace, calmest with regular joy in their lives, good relationships, all have regular doses of self transcendence. Whether they are wilderness guides who do not make very much money. But they're spending a lot of time in nature, a lot of time with their loved ones, a lot of time in expansive landscapes. But whether those are musicians and poets who have figured out how to kind of ride the lightning without suffering too much from the low lows, there are regular ways to do this. And I cannot recommend strongly enough some form of meditative practice. Remember that is prayer with your rosary. Our friend travels with the rosary and also with blood flow restriction cuffs. But that's a story for another time. I'm not doing blood flow restriction with a rosary. Exactly right. I mean, you could. I guess I could bitch. Maybe that's the next niche on your Instagram feed. But the reason that I bring up meditation is because I think one of the easiest paths to self transcendence. And to significance in your life is training your awareness so that the mundane becomes miraculous. And when you start to recognize how fucking unbelievably insane it is that we are even conscious to begin with having this experience. And you start to notice how incredible the little things are which require you to not be distracted requires you to breathe and pay attention. It's not that complicated. It can be challenging. Then you start to perceive almost everything as significant without focusing on establishing your own significance. And I have just found that to be such an unburdening when you realize that you can do things and should do things that help you feel like you are contributing that help you feel like you're having an impact on something other than yourself, whether it's someone or something. But that in fact self-help, self-development can really be a sort of exercise in self-obsession. And therein lies the seeds of misery. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Me, me, me, me. And your point about paying attention to what would ordinarily be thought of as mundane. My father, who is a lifelong Christian, he always said, you know, people talk about the miracle of walking on water. You know what the real miracle is? Water. And another point, based on what you've just said, which is really important, is self-transcendence is really great, being more in the eye self. But you also need to do the work to be less in the me self. And that means getting rid of the mirrors in your life. We have way too many mirrors. I had a guy who worked on my back. He was a guy who worked on Tom Brady's back in Boston, so he was the best guy. He was phenomenal. And I asked him, you know, what did you do before you were this incredible acupuncturist and great physical therapist? And he said, I used to be a fitness influencer. I'm like, dude, tell me more. Like, what's this life all about? And as a social scientist, it was really interesting. And he would take off his shirt and, you know, be on social media and show his abs. And then, you know, sell supplements or something. And I said, how was this? He says, awful. I didn't eat what I wanted for 10 years. I was so lonely. I was so awful. And I was so ill. And I said, so how'd you get out of it? How'd you cure yourself? And he said, you know, I said it had enough. Got rid of my social media. I took every mirror out of my house. All of them, bathroom, everyone. And then I showered in the dark for a year. So I couldn't see my abs. Oh, the cross we bear. No, but this is like the most Tim Ferris thing ever is the, you know, the, the, the, the I self protocol. Yeah. And he said he was cured, so not just serving other people more worshipping more, whatever happens to be, but also meditating against the me cell. And that's not just physical mirrors. It's the notifications on your social media. There's lots and lots of metaphorical mirrors that are making you miserable all the time. What are other ways of facilitating self transcendence? And I for instance, I've interviewed BJ Miller as a hospice care physician. I interviewed him a long time ago. And he talked about, for instance, at the end of life, some of the most meaningful experiences were not these deep conversations about the meaning of it all necessarily, but like baking cookies together. Right. He talked about introducing people who are weeks or months from dying to art. Right. 'Cause he wants to induce a flow state. That's what we're talking about. You, one of the great things about, you know, transcendence is, you know, Mikhail Cheek sent Mikhail, who wrote the great book, Flow. Oh, that type of pronounce is damn name. Cheek sent Mikhail. Yeah, that's right. It's consonants. It's tough, man. That's a tough name. He talked about the fact that you have a transcendent experience when you're in a state that is the state of self forgetting. That's what flow is. It's intensely pleasurable for any of us at any particular time. We established the first way as worship or meditation. The second is service to others. But the third is really total absorption. It's total absorption, the kind of thing that you do. Which, by the way, is one of the reasons not to wear headphones when you're working out. The one of the reasons to be fully there when you're working out. To establish a mind-muscle connection when you're working out. It might sound trite, but it really is because you should be able to attain something of a flow state when you're working out. Because it's an hour of misery that you're going to want to distract yourself from. You've got better calves. It's just so dumb, which is the ultimate and me self kind of experience. That's really the third way to do it. Find your thing is what it comes down to. By the way, my protocols lead up to four hours of writing. That four hours goes by in minutes because it's a flow state. I'm having a transcendent experience. I'm in an I self transcendent experience. It's not me. It's like some other guy is writing this thing. Before I know it, my wife says, "You want lunch?" Nature seems like another option. It's so simple. Just walk barefoot outside for a few minutes. If it's two feet, it's no, it might be harder. But to the extent that you can try to get your feet on the ground, beauty. Beauty, what an interesting, bizarre thing in and of itself. I actually wanted to look semi-professional as I try to on occasion. Instead of holding loose paper, I was going to bring a clipboard. It couldn't find a clipboard, so I was like, "Well, I'm going to bring a book." I thought, I don't know if you've ever seen this particular artist, but I wanted to pass to you. Have you ever seen Andy Goldberg? I started this. This is using pure nature. This is Andy Goldberg. Collaboration with nature. Everybody should get this book. Check out some of the images in there. This is the idea of beauty of working with nature as opposed to again. It's using natural found objects, whether trees, leaves, ice crystals, circle of dandelions. It is the most mind-boggling if James Torell were to only work with organic materials outside of a hobbit house. What would they look like? They're just absolutely entrancing. It would be the word I would use. This is the book I want to use as my clipboard. I like it. And this is, of course, transcendent. This is the essence of using human ingenuity in a flight of fancy. This is pure harmony between who we are and what we're meant to be. I love it. This is harder and harder to do in an environment in which we're living in the simulation. This is life out of the simulation, effectively. This is who I am, but outside of the matrix, which is why it's so striking and strange. Tell me more. The transcendent experience is the one place that they don't happen is an assimilated experience of human life. Fundamentally, transcendent experiences require being fully alive. There's the great 4th century sage and St. Aaron Neus, who is one of these guys. Today, it's pretty costless to be religious like me. In those days, you might get your head cut off. And so you were doing a lot of deep thinking he said the glory of God is a man fully alive. It wasn't a gendered comment. A person fully alive is the glory of God. So then the real question is what does it mean for me to be fully alive? And I ask my students, are you fully alive when you get up and the first thing you do is you pick up your phone, which is by the side of your bed, and check in with a universe that's being mediated through the small screen. And then you do your work on the Zoom and then your friends are on social media and your dating is on the app. And your progress is made through your score on your gaming and your relationships are stripped of their humanity because you're looking at pornography. Are you or are you not fully alive? And if the answer is you're not fully alive, the reason for that is because you're living a simulated life. And a simulated life just Tim isn't beautiful and a simulated life means your cosplaying life. That's right. And this is one of the things that I found in my interviews for this book as well. I kept hearing meaning, meaning, meaning, meaning. But you're talking to a lot of 27 and 28 year olds and their affect is very flat because they're telling you the same story over and over again. And this is where the penny dropped. This guy says 27 year old guy. He said, I really do feel like I'm not living a real life. I really feel like I'm living in a simulation every day. And I don't know how to break out because of my job is fully remote because I can't meet women on the corner and say, like Bill Ackman said on social media the other day. He said, when should come up to women say, I would like to meet you. What does that mean? And watch them run and tear her. Because my friends really are virtual friends because my sense of achievement really is what I can actually do with this gaming experience or whatever happens to be that I've gotten really good at. How am I supposed to do that? I don't know how to break out of this, but I know it's not right. Here's the funny thing. You can kind of be fooled. The touring test can be passed with respect to the kind of experience you think you're having. But then there's a deep knowing. You can't simulate the meaning of your life. You can only live the meaning of your life. A simulation is a complicated, similar, for the complex experiences of human life. And that's a non trivial use of language. This is pops over dinner, right? Exactly. A complicated problem is that which is very, very hard to solve. But once you solve it is static and you can do it again and again and again. It's an engineering problem. It's a how and what problem. Complex problems are super easy to understand and impossible to solve. And I'll give you an example, making a jet engine is a complicated problem. We didn't do it for a long time, making a toaster is a complicated problem. I mean, I defy you to build your own toaster with this stuff in your, you'll burn your house down. If you try to make your own toaster, it's a complicated problem, right? My marriage is a complex problem. I understand what it means to love and be loved. I can't put it in words. I'm not Pablo Neruda. But I understand what it means to love and be loved, right? But I will never solve my marriage. Tim, I mean, this morning, before we started, Esther texted me, "I love you." And she does. And when we finish, I'm going to turn my phone back on again. She might be pissed off at me. I don't know. I don't know. And a part of this is because she's Spanish. You know, that adds a layer of complexity in another cell. But that's the point of my marriage. The things I care about in life are complex. They're not solvable. They're only livable. And so if I take a complicated similacrum of anything, I'm doing it wrong because I'm not going to be satisfied with my brain's going to know. How much of the malaise associated with the feeling of being in a similacrum is resolved just by having more in-person human interactions. Because the older I get, maybe this is just the path of people as they age, I don't know. But I have one foot in the cutting edge, bleeding edge technology, fascinated by the latest advancements in you name it, doesn't matter. I'm very involved. The last 24 hours I've had conversations with three or four scientists all at the cutting edge of different fields. I love it. Simultaneously, I feel like we should pay attention. And this is, I guess, I'm not barring, but certainly I'm in lockstep with like Nassim Talab on this, which is paying attention to things that have persisted for very, very long periods of time. And also paying attention to evolutionary biology. It's like we're evolved to be very social creatures moving through physical space together. Yes. Full stop. And if you take that away, if you take one or the other away, you're in trouble. You're in big trouble. And you don't have to understand all the myriad mechanisms by which this and that happens in 15 different hormones interact to produce some type of subjective experience. It's like, if we have evolved with these things as constants over millennia upon millennia, maybe it's a good idea to keep them as regular ingredients in your daily experience. We know why we know why the need exists. We know exactly neuroscientists know exactly what you're talking about. And this is the theory of hemispheric lateralization. Again, very simple idea with complicated words for tenure. This is the theory that's being most popularized right now, but probably the most visionary cutting edge neuroscientists living today, who is Ian McGillchrist at Oxford. He wrote that at Master in his Emissary back in 2010. And the Master in his Emissary talks about the fact that the two hemispheres of the brain do many things the same, but fundamentally they get at the your two needs, which is the figure stuff out. To dominate world's problems, to make progress and to feel fully alive by being a beloved person. Why? We have two hemispheres of the brain that do those complicated things, that's the left hemisphere, how and what? And the complex things, which is the why questions, that's the right hemisphere of the brain, all the mystery, the meaning, the love, the happiness, as processed in the right hemisphere of the brain. And how you go out and do stuff is in the left hemisphere. The problem is modern life. This gets into the meaning crisis, as pushed us all into the left hemisphere of our brain and slammed shut the door to the right. Everything that we're doing from workaholism to hustle culture to making sure that people don't study humanities, they only study STEM. And most especially to the semelacrum, the technologized semelacrum for ordinary life, that's all left hemisphere. And if you're on the left hemisphere, you're going to know how and what and how and what and what and you're going to be bereft of why, including the big why questions, which make up the meaning of your life. And so the solution, where is meaning to be found? It's the right hemisphere of your brain. How do you open it up? That's the meaning protocols. And it really comes down to these very simple ideas that we've already been exploring and it comes down to this. There's something that I promise you that great grandfather, Ferris never said to your great grandmother, which was honey. I had a panic attack behind the mule today. And the reason is because it wasn't a thing. And the reason is his brain was working the way it was supposed to work his life was pretty boring. And it was boring from day to day, objectively boring, but he never said my childhood was boring. His right hemisphere was exercise as well as his left hemisphere. And the result is he didn't have flooding of the HPA axis. He wasn't morbidly depressed for no apparent reason. He didn't live in a world of affluence and yet feel like he was experiencing nothing. And the reason is his brain was working the way it was supposed to work. This was not a policy problem. This was a neurophysiological problem that he didn't have and that we have actually today. And so the result is we have to live in an extraordinary way that was ordinary 100 years ago. The simulation we really need is the old fashioned life is what comes about because almost all of the things that I talk about in my research that people can experience if they actually put some work into it is to open up the right hemisphere of the brain. And do what was absolutely ordinary, not that long ago, three generations ago, as a matter of fact. Yeah, complicated versus complex. I like the distinction and also having just come back, brief aside, every year I do this past year review, I'm going to be doing that in the next few weeks. Look at my top relationships top defined as dear close relationships that are reliably nourishing for everybody involved and energizing. And then I book time in the next year, more time with all those people. So I established these relationships and then I book more time with them in the subsequent year. And often with extended trips, I just came back from a trip with a number of my very close friends and I look at some of the basics and I think it's replicable where three days into a grand to these my close friends. But I challenge anyone if you put in 20,000 steps a day and you compliment, let's just say two of your close friends and three strangers and tell me by the end of the week that you don't feel better. There's simplicity right on only 10 times right. Yeah, exactly right on the other side. And if you do those things, by the way, you will probably be checking your phone a lot less. Hopefully I want to touch on something because I know we as expected are going to run out of time before we run out of topics to talk about, but I'll let you pick where you want to go first. So there's a line here that I have or it's more more phrasing that I want here you expand on your suffering is sacred. And then there is a line here, which is treat your life like a pilgrimage that opens your mind and heart so life's meaning can find you. So those are both interesting to me right your suffering is sacred and so that life's meaning can find you because most people think of themselves as going out to find meaning if they think about it at all, so. Dealers choice. Yeah, we'll start with suffering because suffering is the most misunderstood thing in most of modern life we have an elimination strategy toward especially mental suffering. We see, you know, big increases in depression anxiety and if you go to campus counseling at any university and you say I'm feel sad, thank you see we got to fix that. Well, probably you know, you have some therapy. There might be some psychiatric medications involved that I had nothing against therapy or psychiatric medications to save the lives of people in my family. But the truth of the matter is that suffering per se is life itself. I mean, that's the first novel truth of Buddhism, Duka, but it also suggests that you have a working limbic system, which is your alarm system. For threats in the environment negative emotion is exists as a threat system as a threat alarm system and negative experiences is the only way that you learn is a reason that great philosophers always say the suffering is your teacher. Because suffering is the ultimate complex right hemisphere experience that teaches you about the meaning of your life and if you try to eliminate your suffering, you will inadvertently eliminate meaning. That's what will happen. The worst mistake that people can make is trying not to suffer. I sell tell my students. These are MBA students at Harvard. I say, you're studying at Harvard University, getting your MBAs. If you're not said in anxious, you need therapy. Something's wrong with you. If you're actually not suffering. So the real question is, how can you learn and grow from it? The math that Buddhists have about suffering is just following. Suffering equals pain multiplied by resistance. Pain times resistance. And it's really important because what we know about that is that people are trying to lower their suffering by lowering their level of pain. And what they should be doing is actually understanding and putting into proper context and proportion their suffering by lowering their level of resistance. Resistance. And every good athlete understands that. And by the way, just very quickly, the meditation that I was describing and recommending is effectively that it's lowering your resistance to everything that you would be inclined to resist. And you know, my students have a little mantra. They started beginning the day and say, I am truly grateful for the pleasant things that are going to happen this day. You know, in the Psalms, this is the day that the Lord has made. I will rejoice and be glad in it. And I'm also truly grateful for the troubles I'm going to face because my learning and growth will come from these troubles. Bring them on. And that's just like bracing. And I say this every day, because I'm going to suffer today. And Tim, you're going to suffer today. And if you try to eliminate that suffering, all you're trying to do is lower your pain level to. Affembrally and artificially and ineffectually lower your suffering. And that Psalm might as well have been also put right next to Marcus Relius meditations. Absolutely. I mean, the question thinking is heavily influenced by the Stoics. They were contemporaneous. This is why they sound so familiar to each other. And the whole idea is like, you got a choice. You can learn and grow from your suffering. You can try to avoid your suffering and have the same amount of suffering and not learning grow. What do you choose? And that's what it comes down to. So that's the most, the most difficult lesson, but the most bracing and empowering lesson about how to find meaning in your life is to lean into your suffering. And you will find your meaning. And that's what grandpa Ferris had to do because he had no choice. He had no therapist. He didn't even have Advil. And so that's what I'm talking about. Then the second point that you made, the second question you asked is, okay, when you're on this, when you're in search to get presents, you're in search, search, search, search. There's a mistake the people commonly make was thinking if I search enough, I'm going to find, seek any shall find knocking the door. She'll be open unto you. But the process is a little bit counterintuitive and different. Every religious tradition has a protocol for finding truth. And that is to make a pilgrimage in which point it is revealed that your truth finds you. Now, there's a lot of ways that that's described in the Bhagavad Gita where you know, trying to go into the birthplace of the Lord Krishna in Mathura in the Hindi Heartland in Christianity for the Communion of the Santiago, which I've walked twice across the ancient route of 1,100 years old, doing the Hajj, if you're a Muslim. What you find is that when you make a pilgrimage, that's a metaphor for your life. And the end of the pilgrimage is the metaphor of the ultimate goal of life, which in, you know, Abrahamic religions is heaven, and it's the end of samsara and the karmic religions or whatever happens to be is the reuniting in the God with the Godhead in the Hindu body of religions. What's most important is actually what's happening to you in the process of this pilgrimage and what actually happens to you neurobiologically is that you beat yourself to the point that you have an open aperture. So that you're no longer in a defensive crouch such that you're you weaken yourself on purpose. This is why you walk 25 kilometers a day and you're walking on blisters and you're actually inducing this amount of pain. And I remember this the first time I walked my community. I was in a liminal space in my career. I just stepped down as the CEO of this big thing tank and I, I didn't know what I was going to do. I mean, I was 55 years old and I was spent, dude, I was out of gas. I was burnt out. I'd been working 80 hours a week. I missed a lot of my kids growing up. I had made mistakes. They stuck with me by the grace of God. And I was walking the Camino day after day after day was praying. It was tired and I was in pain. And when I entered into Santiago de Compostela, this medieval city in northern Spain and I saw the cathedral. I realized my mission was to spend the rest of my life lifting people up and bringing them together in bonds of happiness and love using science and ideas to be a scientist in the public interest, but for love and happiness. And I didn't find that. It found me question, how did that appear? Was it dropped by drop? Was it a Japanese breakfast on a silver platter in your mind? Did it all come at once? Or was it bits and pieces that you slowly were able to weave together? It was bit by bit because it's not this epiphany. It's not like falling off my horse on the road to Damascus and temporary blindness, which is probably temporal epilepsy in the case of St. Paul, but it was a realization. It was a realization. It was something that had already existed out there. It felt like it came to me a little by little, particularly over the last couple of days in the pilgrimage. It was what am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to return to my roots as a scientist and to use that as missionary work for greater love and happiness to get into the mission field as a behavioral scientist going back to the roots of what I've actually learned. Why? What do I want? For me and for everybody. I want more love. I want more happiness. I want more meaning. That's what I want. That's the sustenance of actually what we need. Did that want come into high resolution in part because of the nature of that particular pilgrimage, the religious connotations and the prayer along the way, or do you think that that was already just a little beneath the surface and waiting to come out and it would have come out? It would have come out in a different environment. That's a good question. It's an empirical question, but I will say that all of the components of the pilgrimage, not to be metaphysical about, not to be mystical about it at all, all the components of a pilgrimage, which is the physical difficulty, the strain that actually comes from the intense effort that you're making while away from these technological distractions, the work that I'm doing on my relationship with God and my wife, with whom I'm holding her hand and praying the rosary. You did the pilgrimage with me. I waited on 33 days because she's like, no, so we did the last eight. All of these things turn out to be the ways that you open the vault of the right hemisphere of your brain, where the mysticism is actually found, the mystical side of your brain, which I believe God creates for a reason, but it might just be nature, it might just be a coincidence, but the bottom line is you must open that door and all the things you do in a pilgrimage, open that door. And also, if it is nature, it serves some very important, at least from an evolutionary perspective, function. Yeah. I mean, when we look back, it's like the history of science, it's to take a slight digression at all the many things that we thought were junk DNA, all the many things that we thought were vestigial, all the many things that we thought were just left over and nature forgot to get rid of it. Male nipples, yeah, male nipples, they still don't have a great explanation or great use for. I mean, I'm sure I'll get some suggestions on. Let's watch the comments to show up plenty of suggestions, but I mean, it's half your brain, right? So this along with the, you know, everyone needs whatever eight glasses of water a day and can only have 30 grams of protein at a given sit in the, we only use 10% of our brain, not true. Like we use all of it. True. Absolutely. I mean, that was a thing when I was a kid in the 70s, only 10, all of you get access to the other 90% and then a science fiction story will have you. The person who knows how to use the other 90% can fly. So gaining really embracing and fully utilizing that right hemisphere kind of characterized the capacities that you're mentioning are I have just found it to be such an incredible unlock for me in so many ways. And just to deepen the cemetery and psychological texture of life, I can really need that right side and at least as you're describing it. I've seen this in your work, by the way, so I've been very aware and familiar with work for a long time and the typical algorithm for people who are seekers is to start on the left side. And then they find their way to the right, you become more spiritual, more mystical, more cosmic in your outlook, as you've gotten older, you wouldn't write the four hour body the same way today. I'm sure you wouldn't know I stand by all the tactical stuff. I love it. I love I read that book. I just really enjoyed it. I mean, I learned a lot from it, but it's a very left brain approach. Yeah. Yeah. And you realize in your life, as people generally do, that you needed the right hemisphere as well. And so that's why you talk to us like, why is Tim getting all mystical we do. No, no, no, he's actually moving hemispherically into the full brain. Also, it's like the how to the technicians side the engineering problem of let's just call it self improvement, whether that's physical, cognitive, psych emotional. What is that in service of for most people if they ask why a few times they're trying to improve their quality of life and the quality of the lives around them they care most for. To do that, you need to do things like distinguish between the me, self and the I self, Anthony Demello has a lot of really good writing on this as well. You need to lower resistance, which you think I was also paying very close attention to the serenity prayer or stoicism or fill in the blank. And there's something to be said, I think when I also have conversations with some of the most as far as I can tell at peace reconciled, but yet still productive in the world people, whether that's Henry Shuckman who I mentioned or the Jack cornfield or CEOs who also pay attention to these things. They are all reading and learning from people, whether it's the Christian mystics, whether it's roomy, so Sufi mysticism, you go down the line, it's all the same thing. Zen Buddhism, when I check my Wi-Fi connection, I always go to daily Zen.com and occasionally find something that's pretty interesting. They're all talking about the same stuff. Maybe we should take a gander to put a point on what you just said. The meaning of life comes from the right hemisphere of your brain and you can't get to the right by going further and further left. No. That's probably a political point too, I'm not sure. This is a problem that a lot of people have. They want more and more and more. I've got protocols. I've got protocols up the wazoo man, but protocols aren't it. What they can do is they can facilitate, it's the same thing people ask me all the time, how AI can interact with happiness. The answer is that AI is an adjunct to the left hemisphere of your brain. The way that it can bring you happiness is that if you do left brain things with it, thus bringing up a whole bunch of time, that you then use to deepen your relationships in real life with real people. That's an algorithm right there, man. The way that you won't get it is you try to use it as an adjunct to the right hemisphere of your brain by making it your lover friend or therapist. Or if you use it to do certain things more quickly so that you can simply consume the "free time you've created with more left dominant by frittering away your time." Which is what I predict most people will do. Exactly right. So the idea of my morning era of leisure time now is on its face pretty ridiculous because that's been predicted with every advance in technology. Exactly. When we started off by talking about the technology that I use, which is my morning protocol, the morning protocol per se is not the secret of happiness. It instantiates. It enables what it is as an architecture such that I can actually have the freedom to live in the right hemisphere of my brain and find the meaning of my life. That's what all these protocols are. That's why blood flow restriction is a left brain protocol. But the reason that you do anything like that is because ultimately what you want is more freedom in a way, more freedom to spend it in what really matters most in your life, which is more love. It's more love. It's more meaning. It's more significance. It's more coherence. It's more purpose. I want to and where I promised we would end. And the meaning of your life, this is the new book, "Finding purpose in Asia, Optimus. I love your writing. I love your thinking. People should absolutely check out the book." I need to ask you briefly about a specific element of your evening routine and wind down. And that is personal evening reading. What do you read before you go to bed? Before I go to bed, I read something that's not trying to educate me better, but trying to be generative to me. I want to use, and again, this is very left brain thinking, I want my sleep to be concentrated in the hemisphere of my brain that will bring me the most meaning. And what you read before you sleep will actually stimulate the part of your brain that you're going to use most while you sleep. It's one of the reasons that if you want to remember something, read about it right before you go to sleep. And you'll actually remember it, but you won't learn something you don't know, but you will remember something better. That's the reason that I read the Psalms. Actually, I'd like to have the Psalms read to me in a feminine Spanish accent. That sounds great. Sign me up. I read Love Poetry. Do you have any favorite Psalms? And then Love Poetry, what are we talking about? Well, actually, we are talking about Naruda, the greatest Love Poet ever, but Shalai and Love Poet in Spanish, which is pronounced in Spanish from your beloved is like a narcotic. And yet, it won't ruin your life. The Psalms, Psalm 121. Any of the Psalms, actually, because they have a different flavor as you work your way through them. The first Psalm is like a tree planted by streams of water who prospers in all that he does. The idea of God's promise and love for you to him. And that promise and absorbing that promise of the intense love for you, which is the essence of significance at the metaphysical level. And absorbing that and having it read to you or reading it or having it read to you is so significant. That's a beautiful thing to do. And that's a great part of the evening protocol. The evening protocol is, you know, happiness and better sleep. Deeper love, generativity and the, you know, the nighttime hours, which, by the way, for me are a torment of a terrible sleeper? I'm terrible. And you can't get the machine off, right? Machine. You can't get the machine off switch. Right, the off switch. I've become much, much better at it, much better, but that has for my entire life been the ruminative challenges that I lay down to go to sleep in my mind. It's like, I've been waiting all day to tell you so many things. I know. I know we have to, we have some, there's some things we need to discuss here. You're probably wondering why I gathered you here. When you're spouse, your partner is a good sleeper, that can be really problematic because then they'll have a heavy conversation with you. And then go, oh, yeah, no, that's no flies. That's for my wife. Yeah, that's for both part of the protocol. This is really important for everybody watching us who doesn't sleep alone is actually the oxytocin protocol. Which is, as we all know, the love molecule to bonding, neuropeptide, it functions as a hormone in the brain. Women have three times as much as men side note. Here's how you fix every marriage. You do four things. Number one, you have more fun together as opposed to rehearsing grievance, more fun, less grievance. Therapy is like grievance, grievance, grievance. And to have more fun together, number two. And how long have you been married? 34 years. Okay. Second is pray together because your effusion, one flesh is the fusion of the right hemispheres of your brains. This is the goal, if you get married to him, the goal is to fuse your right hemispheres. The best way to do that is by meditating together, is by praying together, is by doing right hemispher activity together. The third protocol is to make eye contact whenever you talk. Never be talking without making eye contact. Way more important for your wife than his for you. Way more important because she gets three times as much oxytocin, which means she's better at bonding, but it also means that she's better at starving. When she's not getting enough oxytocin, an eye contact from the beloved. Which is, you know, when you have eye contact with a newborn baby, oxytocin is like the fourth of July inside your head. Which is why you wouldn't leave the baby on the bus because suddenly the baby's baby's kin. It's an evolved phenomenon. And last but not least is remember, ABT always be touching, always be touching, always be touching. More important for men than for women, as a matter of fact. That's why when you're with your beloved and she hooks her arm into your arm while you're walking on the street, you're like, "I'm big and strong." Why? Because that's super important. So the last thing before you go to bed, when you're reading to each other or when you're talking, go five minutes earlier to bed, five minutes earlier to bed, and stare at each other. And it's hard. It's scary. It's like the eyes, according to St. Paul, are the windows to the soul. And that's when you know you really feel it. And biologically the reason is because oxytocin is just like old faithful for her. She will love you more if you have five to ten minutes of intense eye contact before you go to sleep while you're holding hands under the covers. And by the way, for anyone who has not tried this, you've done this, I have done this. Five to ten minutes is so long. Yeah, yeah. It's really long intense. Here's an extra start lower, right? You can start lower, but here's the most intense exercise you can do. If you want like the break glass plan for fixing your relationship, right? Here's what you do. You stand in front of each other, staring at each other to the eye, silent, and you hold your arms out to the side. Like in an iron cross holding hands like this for eight minutes. And so what's going on here? This is for the Shaolin monk therapy school. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's super painful. And it's going to be more painful for you because pretty after about four minutes, you're holding her arms out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's like five pound weights in each hand. And so you're in intense excruciating pain while having your soul opened with a crowbar. This is like intense. How did you arrive at this? You know, experimented with this, and also I read the research, right? Yeah. And I participated in the research. I've actually done this a number of times. There's a number of religious traditions that will do exercises actually that are like this. I did one in Spain last year. It's called El Proyecto Amodicón Yogal. And that's the Marital Love Project. It's a very big deal across Spain. It's not in English yet. And so it was in the little retreat center outside Madrid. And we were seeing, because my wife and I, we do a lot of talks together. And, you know, we counsel couples that are engaged, et cetera. This is our side hustle, right? Is that, you know, helping people fall in love, stay in love. And so we were like, what's this method? Everybody's so crazy about it. We were doing stuff like this. And I was like, holy mackerel. I mean, because they don't know how much neuroscience they're actually doing. There's somebody came up with this and said, what if this works? It's like, it's really, really heavy. It's just top notch neuroscience matched up with, it's as left in the right brain as you can get. Wow. And also, not yet in English. That sounds like a job for Arthur Brooks and some A.I.S. And Anastor Brooks is our guy. She's the spiritual leader in our field. There you go. Job job for Esther who wouldn't need the AI. Arthur always so much fun to spend time together. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you, Tom. Thank you for what you're bringing into the world. Even when I'm not in person. I'm with you virtually and you enrich my life. Oh, thanks, man. This is, boy, talk about lucky timing. All the certain deputy required to end up with this is a job remarkable. And I get to spend time with people like yourself. The meaning of your life folks, check it out. You can get it everywhere. Books are sold. And people can find you at Arthur Brooks.com on all the socials. Yeah. Presumably is there anything else you would like to share? Anything else you'd like to say or request my audience? Anything at all before we wind to a close? You don't know what to do today. And meaning feels out of reach. Turn off your device and go love somebody. And it doesn't really matter how you feel. Because love is an act. It's a commitment to the decision. And you'll lift up yourself and that person in a little bit of the whole world. Happiness is love. Boom. I think that is the perfect place to end. And folks will link to everything as usual. Timed up log slash podcast. Go love somebody. Including yourself. Right on. See you next time. Thanks for tuning in. Hey guys. This is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off. And that is five bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribed to my free newsletter. My super short newsletter called five bullet Friday. Easy to sign up. Easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles on reading, books on reading, albums, perhaps gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on. They get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast. Guests and these strange esoteric things end up in my field. And then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short. A little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. Something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog/friday. Type that into your browser tim.blog/friday. Drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. And that is why I am happy to recommend this episode sponsor Monarch, named Best Budgeting App of 2025 by The Wall Street Journal. Monarch brings your entire financial life together in one clean interface, letting you see your full financial picture at a glance. 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