828 practical ways to rebuild your energy with Dr Amantha Imber

(upbeat music) Today on the show, we are talking about how you build your energy. I'm joined by my good friend, Dr. Amat, the EMBA, and we're discussing all the practical strategies she has in her book for how you can build your energy, recharge and thrive at work. Now, if you haven't listened to part one, you need to go back and listen to that first. She talks about the energy crisis and why people are so tired, more tired than ever. And then today's episode is all the practical strategies you can implement to rebuild your energy fast. Let's go. (upbeat music) This is a podcast about making work work. You'll learn about leadership, career growth, and how to navigate those weird work challenges. I run a HR consulting business called Boldside where I help leaders build epic team cultures. If you lead a team all run a business and you think I can help, let's connect on LinkedIn. My name is Shelley Johnson and this is Work. (upbeat music) On the last episode, Amat, we talked about the energy game, your latest book, which is absolutely amazing. And everyone needs to buy it on audible and in hard copy and electronic, like all the things get it right, if I good books are solved. I want to know, we talked about this idea of the energy crisis and how energy levels are what sustains us for higher performance. Someone listening right now, or probably quite a number of listeners, who are feeling like my energy is really low. I am feeling really fatigued, I'm feeling really exhausted. If they're listening, where would you begin helping them to rebuild their energy? What I do in the energy game is I break the different challenges or strategies, there are 53 of them in the book into three different categories. So the first category are boost strategies. So these are things that will take you on average less than five minutes to do that have been scientifically shown to instantly boost your energy. So those times where you're feeling shattered, but you need to perform, so they're the boost strategies. Secondly, we've got rest strategies. And what a lot of people do is what I think of as fake rest, like they will binge watch Netflix at night on the couch, 'cause I've got no energy to do anything else and that feels like rest, but it's not really rest. They will maybe scroll on social media. Again, that is kind of doing the opposite of rest to your brain. And so I talk about how do you actually do real rest? That doesn't have to take long most of the rest strategies to truly rest and recharge less than 10 minutes in the book. And then finally, we've got protect strategies. So how do you actually protect your energy in the first place instead of letting it leak out of you typically through not setting boundaries and saying, yes, too many things? Okay, so my mind goes straight to, oh, I don't want to talk about rest. I want to talk about the other ones, but we're going to get to rest 'cause I think that's the one that's really really difficult. We're going to get to that in a sec though, but I want to know, let's start with boost. Someone listening, they're like, they might be an achievement addict like us and they're like, let me boost my energy ASAP and let me do it on 1.5 speed. Like, how do I do that? Which is totally the opposite of what I'm trying to achieve people. But anyway, I want to know, are there certain strategies in the book that got, I guess great feedback from the people who did the research with you, those 1300 people who tested all of these strategies. What ones do you really stood out? Ooh, there were quite a few standouts. Should we talk about the boost ones first? Yeah, what do you think? I mean, one that I did the other night, I'll just jump and tell you my own feedback. I was in, I've been on the road all this week and I actually have found, like, I've been in my body, had found the physical energy to be quite low and I was like, I had a really big dinner and I was reading the book at the same time and I'm like, there's this one and it's on, in the boost strategy on page 87, the glucose straw. Can you talk to me about that? Because I did that and I want everyone else to learn about it. (laughs) Okay, so what the glucose straw is all about? This is about what our blood sugar or blood glucose levels are doing after we eat. And, you know, if we're eating things that, and I don't want to say, like, 'cause for everyone, this is quite individualized in terms of the sorts of foods that are gonna spike up blood glucose levels and then lead to an inevitable crash. And I wrote more about that in my last book, The Health Habit, but what we know from research that whatever you ate for your meal, you're gonna get, like, at least a bit of a raise in your blood sugar and therefore you're gonna get a little bit of a crash, which is where our energy and, you know, like, we just feel pretty rubbish, we feel exhausted, our brains foggy, we feel miserable and, you know, if that's happening to you about 30 minutes to 60 minutes after a meal, you probably didn't eat things that were - It was stable. - It was a double cheeseburger. - Yeah. - From macas as well. It was like on the road, so I was like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah." So you're probably not gonna feel great after that. So what we know from research is that if we can move our body, like, just go for a gentle stroll or a gentle walk around the block, about 30 to 45 minutes after we have eaten, it will significantly curb that spike. So if you kind of imagine a graph and imagine, like, a really big jump on the graph and then a crash, that's what we wanna reduce. We don't want that big jump. We just maybe want just, like, a tiny little mound, if you like. And so by going for a walk, short walk movement, about 10 to 15 minutes of gentle movement is all it takes. You don't have to do a hardcore workout or anything. We are gonna significantly reduce that blood glucose spike, which means you're also gonna reduce the crash. So your energy will ultimately be more sustained through making that choice. Like, how did you feel, Shirley? - Oh, it was so weird because afterwards, I read it and I'm in the view of like, "Well, if I'm gonna walk, I'm gonna speed walk." I'm gonna walk really fast. - Because if you do have anything you should do with a purpose and a level of energy, but I deliberately went, no, I'm just gonna, like, gentle stroll, 10 minutes. That's all I did and then I turned the treadmill off and I felt so much better. And 'cause like, I could feel just that like, "Oh, cool." Because beforehand I was like, really lethargic. I just felt really like, "Ugh, bloated, gross." And just coming back to what we said in the first episode, the thing that I love so much about the strategies you give, they're not unachievable, they're really simple. And I almost gave myself a mission to go, "Do what the book said and just do 10 minutes." Don't try to, don't always try to drive for more, more, more. 'Cause that's part of the problem and the cycle that's led us to have, I think, these low energy levels. - 100%. Love that. - Yeah, yeah, love that, really. So the glue goes to what I really loved and I wanna get into some of them around, like some of the actual practical strategies so that people can test these. So, rather down, glue goes, if you've got your notes out, glue goes stralled, 10 minutes. - Can you talk to us about in the boost strategy there is a thank you letter one? And I, again, so many of them really surprised me as far as I wouldn't have expected that in boosting energy. So can you talk to us about that one? - So quite frankly, I do not need another wellbeing guru to tell me to write a bloody gratitude list. And so this is why I liked this particular research that this technique comes from. And that recruit, I think, was about 1,000 Australians and they tested a number of different strategies around how could they improve like emotional energy or reduce emotional fatigue? So thinking about our emotional energy account, which we talked about in the last episode. And they did test the impact of writing a gratitude list, which incidentally was about as effective as writing it to do list. - I'm so relieved to know that. - Yeah, me too, me too. And one of the interventions that they tested was the impact of writing a letter, a thank you letter. So calling someone out in your life and spending seven minutes saying thank you through a letter. And then they took this a step further and then they asked those people who would written the letter to actually go and deliver the letter or even read it out to the people that they had written it for. And those that did that, they had around a 25% reduction in emotional exhaustion. And that effect lasted for several weeks after the experiment. So just through saying thank you, I'm really writing it down. And then actually delivering that thank you letter is a really simple but incredibly effective way to boost that emotional energy account. So physically writing it like handwritten, handwriting you could type it, you know, something I did, I think this might have been, I think it was when I was writing timewise possibly. and someone that's had a huge impact. packed in my life. And I think was probably really influential in me becoming a writer was my high school English teacher, Mr. Stewart. And so I had the same English teacher from years eight to year 10. And prior to year eight, I was not a fan of English. I did OK. I think I was probably like a B, B plus student. But I grew up with a mom that's a writer. And I think I was kind of expected to enjoy reading and enjoy writing and be really good at that. And I didn't like reading and I didn't like writing. But then in year eight, I remember I was met with this English teacher that was so passionate about storytelling and Shakespeare and language. And you couldn't help but be sucked in by that passion for words. And that completely turned me around. I became a very, very good and motivated English student. And when I was writing time wise, I was thinking about Mr. Stewart. And I looked him up on LinkedIn and I spent some time writing him a note and telling him just what a huge impact his three years of teaching me when I was a teenager had on me. And here I was like writing books. That's so good. I love those moments. And I think about the simplicity of that story. And even, you know what's really funny is that still we call our teachers, Mr. Stewart. I don't know. Like Mr. Stewart, we wouldn't be able to use that first name. But it's to me again, it comes back to the simplicity of this stuff, the little things that can have a huge uplift in your own energy. And that I mean, what a beautiful way to do. So like, instead of it, I guess going back to the We Mode versus Me Mode, it's one of those nice ways to move from focusing on me and what I need to do to build my energy, but actually showing gratitude. And how amazing for him, I'm sure that made his absolute week saying that, "I'm just curious. What did he respond?" He responded quite quickly and really beautifully. He said something like, you know, like, thank you, that means a lot. And I always knew you'd do something great. And that surprised me because like, you know, teachers teach so many hundreds, if not thousands of students, the ones that are career teachers as he was and still is. And I was just blown away by that note. I love that. So we've got these booths, Strudgy. You talked about the gratitude, this thank you letter. You've also talked about the glucose walk. Ah, this one's really interesting to me. And I know a few of our people who are here watching us record this, are also very keen to know about the acupressure Strudgy. Can you talk to us about this one? Okay, so I hate needles. I did try acupuncture once where needles are stuck in special ponds. It was when I was trying to get pregnant. And I thought, everyone talks about acupuncture. I will get some needles stuck in my body and just relax. Yeah. It's not relaxing at all. I will not be doing that again. And then when I was researching the energy game, I was reading a lot about acupressure, where you're still identifying those same pressure points. But instead of sticking a needle into yourself or having someone else do that, you're simply using your fingers to apply pressure and rubbing that spot in a circular motion. Just gently, like for about three minutes. And there's a particular protocol that I write about in the book where there are five points to apply pressure to three minutes each. And we can talk through a few of those that are above waist-hash. And just through doing that, because a lot of the studies around energy are done with, there's a lot of healthcare workers studies because the Benaz huge there. There's quite a lot of studies that have been done with cancer patients because fatigue is a huge side effect of cancer and treatment for cancer. And so I think there was a particular study here that was done with breast cancer, people that were going through breast cancer treatment. And through doing this particular acupressure protocol, just for 15 minutes a day for about six weeks, they experienced it was about a 45% reduction in fatigue. Just through 15 minutes a day of putting some pressure on some different pressure points. So three of the points that are above waist-hash, which works for video, is just the point that's right between your eyebrows. So just putting pressure just so that's what between your eyebrows, rubbing in a circular motion for three minutes. So you have to do it for a full three minutes. That's what they did in the research. So you could possibly do less. You could try that, but I'm always a fan of sticking to the protocol in the research that's actually been shown to give results. Now another spot is just just behind the bottom of your ears. If you put your fingers just under your ears and just a little bit up a bit, you'll feel like an indentation. And if you put pressure there and just rub there, just behind your earlobe, and you can do both sides at the same time, that is another spot that was part of the protocol. Just while you're doing this amount, we're all practicing with you. Every single person in the studio is also doing that. Look at all these people. They're like, I need more energy. Okay, so behind the ears and then the third spot that is at least above the waist is just below, kind of like at your wrist. If you follow the line down from your little finger down to your wrist, again, there's like a little indentation just like below your palm, kind of like near where your wrist creases. Hopefully I'm describing this okay for those just looking into your audio. But again, you'll find like a little indentation there and that is a third spot just sort of putting some pressure there. Okay, and then you put pressure there for three minutes. Three minutes just rubbing a circular motion and the other spots for those playing along at home, just kind of if you think about where your ankle bone is, about three finger lengths up from that behind your shins. If you kind of grip behind there, behind your shins, again, you'll feel an indentation just playing a pressure there. And then the final spot is between you big toe and your second toe, just kind of where the webbing is if you're like not the way ducks, but you know what I mean? Just like between those two putting some pressure there. Well, I'm really glad you clarify that we're not ducks because you're wondering right? That was curious. I was thinking, who am I today? But I do love that again, it's coming back to and I think about those three categories of challenges. So we've got 53 challenges, boost, rest and protect. But then they apply, going back to your energy accounts. I almost think like the energy accounts and the link between the two, like the emotional energy account if it's low. The thank you letter in boost can really help with that. So I'm just piecing this all together and being able to understand how you can boost energy in the relevant account as well. So again, this is all. It's just super helpful putting together the dots. Yes. And interestingly side note, which may or may not be an interesting side note, when I was writing the energy game in one of the, well, certainly in the very first draft of the manuscript for every one of those 53 challenges, I actually had which account or accounts. It was best for boosting, but or like increasing, not boosting. But what was then a bit of a struggle is that the research wasn't quite clear for some of the strategies which account it was increasing. And so the purist in me and also my editors in Penguin made the call to just delete that from the different toolkit cards that you will see in the books. So some of them, it's very clear kind which energy account they give you some deposits into and others it's going to be all three and others I could make it educated guess but there is no science. So hence that was edited. Very classic. I mean for investor like no, no, the science is not there. So we will remove for the integrity of it. Which I love. Which I love. Do you want to grow in your career? Are you after a fresh start or some inspiration? Or perhaps you're in a career crisis. The book sought your career out and make more money by Shelley Johnson and Glenn James is such a great resource at any stage in your career. It will give you practical strategies for things like getting a promotion, making more money, moving into a leadership role, taking career risks or if it's time to quit your job and so much more. You can find sort your career out and make more money wherever good books are sold or via the link in the podcast show notes. It's also available as an audiobook. I want to go into rest and this is a personal challenge for mine. Surprise surprise. And I heard on a podcast of probably about a year ago someone talk about how high achievers need to have a rest ethic that matches their work ethic. And it's rattled around in my head since then because I think of I've never associated rest as being actually it's an ethic. You need to build it. It is hard to build just like your work ethic is hard to build. The habit of rest and genuine rest not fake rest as you say is very difficult. Why do high achievers and high performance find it so hard to rest? Well, there's so many reasons. I think the most common one is that well, I don't have time to rest. I'm too busy doing all the things and keeping all those balls in the air and Where am I going to find the time because I'm so busy? But to that I like to ask the question and let me ask this of you, Shelley Have you ever woken up in the morning and thought? I don't have time to scroll on Instagram today. I'm too busy No There you go. So you've got time to rest Well very well put and yes, it's like that That's not the question I thought you were gonna ask but I'm glad you did Yeah, I don't I yes you're right Yes, so if we think about then the rest Challenges oh this one I didn't like all which one oh, I really didn't like it. Maybe uncomfortable The silent walk Can we just can we can I tell you why don't like it for tell me tell me so I have I have to I've got such a noisy brain and I was like When I saw the silent walk I said but wait, what do you do with your thoughts? Where are the thoughts go like I need the music for the thoughts like I don't want I don't want to be aligned with my thoughts and say no you're telling me I need to be aligned with my thoughts So talk to us about that Yeah, and look for for this one. I will say I I read the book digital minimalism by Cal Newport. I think you put that out maybe in 2019 I want to say and That really changed my perception with how Most of us certainly you and I are suspect just feel like there needs to be stimulus going in our brain at all times because Never gonna have the time to listen to all the podcast episodes and all the songs that I want to listen to and all the things that need to go in my brain so that I can learn learn learn and never sit still and I thought that that was healthy and What Cal Newport talks about in digital minimalism is that that's actually quite unhealthy and that our brains need time to breathe they need time to be bored and When we stop just loading our brains up with stimulus they have time to be still and to Ponder and create and and when I read that book many years ago I set myself the challenge I calculated approximately how many hours I was listening to podcasts per week and it was about About six hours I'd calculated so it was all the all my workout time and it was all my commute time might have been eight hours Even and I made the commitment that I was gonna cut that back by 50% So every second workout I'd have nothing going in my ears. Oh, I know And don't love that yeah, and so and then for my commute into the city my commute into the city I was stimulus free my commute home. I was allowed to listen to a podcast That was a little reward as well Getting back into the stimulus addiction and What I found is that those times where I wasn't just loading my brain up with stimulus It was like this creativity was unleashed in my brain. It was like nothing I had experienced in many many months prior and and you know it became incredibly compelling to just go I wonder what's gonna pop into my brain today It was it was like just this fire hose of Ideas and it was amazing and when I was researching the energy game I was like I wonder what like I wonder you know where the sciences around that and I found this Really interesting study that took a group of people and they were sent on a 12 minute walk and Half the people were told look at your phones while you're walking like full permission to just be in your mobile phone As a lot of people are when they're going for a walk and then the second group were phone free They were not allowed to take anything with them and what they found is that not surprisingly The group that spent those 12 minutes without their phone and went for a walk It was through parks or getting you know, but of a nature here as well I'm just being present with their surroundings came back feeling significantly happier more recharged and Distraported feeling I just felt really present and in the moment compared to the phone walkers that were Hunched over they felt pretty crappy after the walk even though walks are meant to be good for us But they're not so great for us when we're on our phones and so I call this the silent walk It just go for and it doesn't need to be long. This study was 12 minutes. It was a 12 minute walk Like we could all find time to just go for a 10 or 12 minute walk just around the block as a break during the work day This is one of the techniques. I must say that I use I would say every single day I find it so powerful because my work is so you know It's it's computer-based or as people base There's always stimulus buzzing around in my head and just to have that break for 10 to 12 minutes I find is so incredibly recharging Okay, so I like that we framed it as an energy challenge because I would find that challenging 12 minutes So I'm going to try that one In the next week and I'm gonna let you know how I go with the 12 minute silent walk Yeah, like sound like like you can see how excited I sound and feel I'm gonna try it and I'm gonna let you know But I do like the idea of and I think about digital minimum Millies and then county ports work and again had the same kind of either that of like that feels scary to like be alone with your thoughts But I'll let you know how I go with my creative because I you do want that creative energy I think when your work's cognitively demanding and like you are getting a lot of input Of info, but you're not having that space. I can see how that will really would really help with your creativity Okay next challenge can we The tapping reset. Hmm. Okay, so this is This is a technique called Ft or emotional freedom technique Ft is how it's commonly thought about and It is going to sound really wooh But there is a surprising amount of science behind it. So I first came across this strategy over ten years ago Where it's quite a common way to treat phobias funnily enough It's also brilliant for energy and managing stress, but it's very common for phobia management and I had a phobia of lizards and I can't remember why I was so motivated to work on it at the time, but I was and I was recommended this practice EFT practitioner and he was an hour away from my house, which is annoying Because I'm in inner city Melbourne and things should not be an hour away. No, they should they absolutely should not yeah That is how committed I was so every Monday afternoon I drive out to this guy's house and We would sit around and I would tap on my face primarily and Say a kind of mantra out loud and I did that for it was about seven or eight sessions and then by the eighth session I had a blue tongue lizard sitting on my way. Yeah, yeah, but but unfortunately it didn't generalize to skinks and geckos Medium to large size lizards so I go and I'm totally cool. What it go in a beer? Okay? Go in a little bit about that big not too bad not about massive cause That's right. But how fast are they all fast? Yeah, really? Yeah, oh go in as they would be fast Okay, there's not too many in inner city Melbourne. So we're cool. We're cool Want to have a separate part three of this podcast is tell us about the lizard lizards and the Yeah, please can we dig into that in as much details we possibly can but that's a separate episode Okay, so anyone listening how do we do it because I know first of all every single person in this in this studio Right now wants to do the tapping reset like I want to do that and can I say my fear? Yes, I've talked about on my pod before I hate flying And I fly Multi-trans every week I hate planes I get like flight anxiety and now I'm thinking this could really help me with my flight anxiety This would be brilliant. Okay, it would be brilliant and so look in the context of energy This is really great when you are feeling overwhelmed by stress and stressful thoughts and This is where you can help calm yourself down But it's also good for phopias. So how this works again. This is a bit visual So I'll try to describe our way through it So what we're gonna do is we're gonna be tapping on different points of our body primarily around our face and We're gonna be saying and and like the exact wording is fairly flexible, but essentially It's saying even though I am feeling Ex-emotion so even though I am feeling nervous about this flight I Deeply and completely accept myself So which sounds a bit woo and there are variations that I write about in the book that you know might feel less work So you are saying that either out loud or in your head to yourself as you're tapping and so the first point to tap is It's called the karate chop point so it's kind of imagine your karate chopping a block of wood Imagine the part of your hand just kind of like down the line of your little finger towards your wrist So like the side of your hand you're just tapping like with you know three or four fingers You're just tapping quite fast like one two three before five, that kind of speed. You're just tapping that point and you're kind of doing that for about nine or 10 taps. Then you're moving to the next point, which is, same point is the acupressure point, so just between your eyebrows. - Okay. - Tapping that point. - And so while I'm tapping, I'm saying, - You're saying those words. - Even though I'm anxious about this fly. - But, I deeply and completely accept myself. And you're saying that over and over again. Now you're moving down to just the kind of, the bony point below your eyes. - So that your sinus. - I guess your sinuses, yeah. And you're tapping there and you're repeating what you're saying. You're then moving down to the spot, what's it called, like your cupid's boat. Like just between your bottom of your nose and the top of your lips, so. - And do you have to do all of the points like as part of the process? Or can you just do one? - You need to work through most of them. I don't think you need to work through all of them. And then there are a couple more. So the next one is just below your bottom lip and sort of like where your chin is tapping there, then tapping just like kind of on your collarbones and like with both hands and you can alternate or tap the hands at the same time. Then just at the side of your body, kind of like with your woman and wearing a bra, where your bra strap is. So just kind of tapping at the side of your body. And then you can also tap just at the crown of your head. And then you just like repeat that cycle. So go back to the beginning and just keep tapping and kind of do that for, yeah, generally like five to 10 minutes is about right. And then you wanna then just check back in and go how am I feeling in my body about the thing that was stressing me out. So you kinda start by going, hmm, where's, well, like what's that level of stress like out of 10 and maybe you're an eight out of 10. And then when you've done a few rounds of the tapping, you then ask yourself, okay, how am I feeling now in terms of that stressor? And hopefully you've gone down a bit. And if you wanna keep going down, you might do a few more rounds of the tapping until you're, you know, maybe down to a two or a three. And so that's essentially what I did every session with the lizard guy, as he shall be known. (laughing) And doing that enough, essentially it's kind of changing, like it's rewiring those thoughts in your brain is essentially like from a scientific point of view, what is happening by tapping while repeating this mantra and it's almost like disconnecting those connections in your brain that we're not serving you very well in terms of those stressful thoughts that were like activating a stress response in you. - And so how long did you do that for with the lizard guy to get to the point where you could have the blue tongue lizard on your lap? - So yeah, I think it was about seven or eight sessions we came and we would probably, like, you know, we spent a lot of time talking about, you know, the theory and the research behind AFT and him just teaching me it. But in terms of tapping time, maybe like 10 to 15 minutes worth of tapping time each week. - I mean, again, there's so many great surprises in the book, but like strategies you just never would have thought of, like they're, again, like you go into so many practical strategies, but I'm gonna use that one 'cause the plain thing is really inconvenient. I mean, my head will highly be you. (laughing) - I'm curious to know how many lizards you were trying to counter the magic. (laughing) - Again, that's an exception. (laughing) - Okay, so I wanna get onto two final strategies in the Protect Space. Okay, so thinking about that leaking bucket, the bucket's got holes in it, it's leaking. We wanna close those holes and stop the energy leak. This one I really loved, the Yes triage. Can you talk to us about that? - So the Yes triage, the thinking behind this came from Adam Grant, who is an organizational psychologist that I think we both adore. And he's been on the how I work podcast a few times. And I remember, I think it was the very first time I had him on. I was curious for someone that is so giving as a person, but also someone that has so many requests made on his time. I was asking him about, how does he decide, what to say Yes triage and what to say No triage. And he talked to me about this, almost this hierarchy of like, yeses. And how I guess he's version of the Yes triage, as I think of it. And he says, well, aside from family and friends, students are at the very top because I became a teacher, a professor, because I knew how much impact the professors that I had had when I was a student, had had on me, and I wanted to have that impact. And so students are at the top of that hierarchy. And he sort of talks through who is on that hierarchy, but towards the bottom of the hierarchy, fellow professors. He's like, I didn't go into teaching to help other professors. That wasn't why. And it was useful for him to unpack that because it helps you when you're met with all the incoming requests on a time that we're all met with, to have a structured approach to going, okay, rather than having to have all this mental angst or whatever it was, I always end up with a waste time on that is just a straightforward decision. So what I talk about in the book is my version of that, which I call the Yes triage, where it's really simple. When someone asks for your time in some way, shape, or form, and I know that this is sometimes a luxury because sometimes we do not have the choice to say no, but where we do have the choice. Firstly, asking yourself, does this actually align with my top priorities? Say my top three priorities for the month, because it's really easy to let other people's priorities become your own priorities. And particularly if where a people please are or an over-committer, those two particular energy types that we talked about in the Part One episode, we kind of just wanna say, yes, no matter whether it aligns with our goals or whether it doesn't. So that's the first question. The second question is, do I have the energy to do justice to this request? Which again, can seem like a strange question to ask, do I have energy to do this thing? Most of us don't think about that. They just say, well, I should do the thing, I should say yes. But asking yourself, do I truly have energy to do this thing and do it well? Because no one needs the exhausted version of you. That's not gonna serve anyone well, particularly you. And then the third question is, are you saying yes out of enthusiasm or are you saying yes out of guilt or pressure or something negative? Because again, particularly those that are in those four types, a perfectionist or a people pleaser, so more anxiety-driven as opposed to ambition-driven, are often gonna say yes from a place of, well, I have to do, I have to do the thing, I feel pressure. I'm gonna feel real guilt if I don't say yes. So just thinking, is there a yes coming from a place of enthusiasm? And I say, look, if you can say yes to two out of three of those questions for the yes triage, is probably worth doing. I find that so helpful because so many reluctant yeses that you go, oh, I knew at the time, if I'd sat with this more, I would've been like, this is a hard no, but because you're like, oh, I'm gonna pressure and sometimes I find it takes less emotional energy in the moment to say yes and it does to say no, but it takes far greater energy to then deliver on that yes that you made in a short, sharp decision. Like I just think, again, the reflective questions in that challenge to me was just so profound, like they sound simple, but I think they are really profound 'cause they just get you to reframe, am I saying yes out of guilt? Is there a level of enthusiasm about this? And if there's not, then why would I do it? Like, so even the two out of three, to me is really, really solid. One final thing for you on, one final challenge that I really loved, really loved this one. And I need this in my life, the never again list. Can you tell us about that? I can. So this one, and look, the very first item that ever went on this list happened because of this story. So you and I both do a lot of keynote speaking. And I have a loose rule that I don't speak at dinner events. And look, I don't get asked to speak at too many dinner events. People, I think know that the kinds of topics that I speak about that are around productivity and well-being and AI, it's like they're better in the daytime. There really is a lot of day. They're better without alcohol. Let's face it. And I, so typically say no, but it was never a hard and fast rule. And then I found myself in, and I think this was in 2018, I think, or 2019, speaking at a dinner event. And it was a really big award's night. And I was speaking about innovation, I think. And it was like, you know, this packed venues, 600 people all sitting around, cabaret style seating, eating their mains while I was up on stage doing a 20 minute keynote about innovation for these innovation awards. And I remember throughout that whole entire presentation, I could not actually hear myself speak because the loud, the volume of the room and the people having conversations while they were, you know, clattering their knives and the clattering on the plate. But seriously, the conversations that people were having while I was talking could not hear myself. I just wanted that stage to swallow me whole. It was the single worst speaking experience I've had in my life. And I remember getting off the stage And. Adam Spencer was emceeing the event and I said to Adam, "Oh my gosh, I am like I feel absolutely humiliated by what went on." It was like, "It wasn't that bad, like you know, just the acoustics are really bad." So it sounded like no one was listening but don't worry people will listening and I'm just thinking, "Didn't feel that way, felt pretty sucky to me." And after that event, I said to myself, "Never again will I say yes to speaking at a dinner event?" And at that moment, I started my never again list because the never again list is thinking about what are those experiences that you've had and maybe you've had them a few times and you've said, "Yes, for whatever reason." And then you have them and then you do the same thing again and you're like, "I should not have done that. Never again." So I have a never again list which makes it really easy to say no to things because I don't never again will I speak at a dinner event? Never again will I go on a roll or co-star? Is that what I'm saying? That is absolutely on it. It's like these are just hard and fast rules that I live by. Never again list removes so much decision-making energy. Never again will I hug go into hug the CEO? I'll just go for the handshake and if they want to initiate a hug, I mean I've done that multiple times where it's just gone so bad. I'm like such a hugger like so everyone gets a hug and it's like, "No, never again. Actually, I have to remind myself about every day. If you could just do one thing today, don't try to give the CEO a hug." So that's what I've got my list on the top of my list. I love everything else on your never again list. Oh yeah. I mean I love this because I do find you have recurring. Not necessarily. Not necessarily. I am very protective of my evenings when I'm traveling. So people often, it's only a very small instance where I would have a dinner. Catch me and Melb. Yeah, like you. When you're next to Melb, let's do that. That's what I mean. Small, very small group of people who are like, "Yes, we are catching up for dinner." We've done that multiple times. It's always Japanese. I think certain things that you just learn about yourself where I know for me, my energy recharges with time to myself. When you're facilitating big rooms of people all day, that is such an energy drain. So I've got a pretty hard and fast rule with small handful of people that are exceptions to this where I'll go. I don't do a dinner with a social dinner after I've done a keynote or a workshop or something like that. So that's what I never again list. But I think it's really helpful for people just to eliminate that. Like you say, the decision making energy. Do I say yes to this? Do I say no to this? It's like, no. I remember that 20-minute keynote where people were talking through. It's so rude, first of all, but also the one thing the clanking of glasses and cutlery, what do you want your attention to? It's the worst. It's the worst. Hey, I know people are going to want to get this book. And I want one final thought from you. Farad listen to right now who the energy is low and something you would have loved to have heard in that moment where your energy was low. What would you say to them? So I mean, like the big thing I learned when I was doing research for the energy game is that you don't have to overhaul your life. And often if you are at a point of burnout, there probably are some big decisions you need to make and some big changes that you need to make. And I do write about that in the energy game because I did make some very big changes in 2024 and they absolutely lifted my energy. But I couldn't have done that without starting small and starting with the challenges that I write about in the energy game to start to claw back and build back some of that energy that was just absolutely missing from me in that year. Beautiful. Well, hey, everyone needs to get the book. Mine is absolutely, I have used so many of the strategies already. It is it is such a helpful resource. Super practical. But so many of the parts of it that are so profoundly relatable, you're going to get so much out of it. Audible, get a hard copy, get it on Kindle, Amanda, you are one of my fav people and I just adore you, adore your work and say thanks for hanging out. Oh, thanks, Shelley, right back at you too. If you have enjoyed the show today, forward it to a friend, colleague or family member who you may think it would benefit. Shelley's business boldside provides leadership training for a variety of different businesses. To learn more, visit boldside.com.au. If you would like to book Shelley to speak at one of your events, please reach out to the team via moneypodcast.com.au.