#82 A Designer's Beauty Marketing Career Journey in Package Design and Production with Whitney Van Voorhis, Senior Packaging Production Designer @ Tarte Cosmetics

Welcome to the Sky Society podcast. The place where dream careers come true. I'm your host, founder and CEO of Sky Society, Natalie Peters. Prepare for smiles, tears, surprises, and epic takeaways. This podcast is for the ambitious women who wants it all and wants it real. We're diving deep with relatable and dreamy guests who are showing you what actually matters when it comes to starting and accelerating your career so you can make your dream job your real job. Let's make it happen. Welcome back to another episode of the Sky Society podcast. Today I am so excited to be chatting with Whitney VanVoris. She is the Senior Packaging Production Designer at TARC Cosmetics. Welcome Whitney. Thank you, Natalie. I'm really excited to be here today. Thanks for having me on. Thank you so much for coming on. Whitney has a very interesting journey. She went and started in graphic design and is now doing Packaging Production Design, which is a very interesting shift. So we're going to dive into all what her crew journey looks like, what she currently does. But before we jump into all of that, Whitney, can you tell me a little bit about who you are and what you do? Of course. So my name is Whitney VanVoris. I am a creative professional with a background in graphic design. Currently, I am the Senior Packaging Production Designer at TARC Cosmetics. I've been there for about five years. And I started my career with a BFA in graphic design. And I kind of, while I did a bunch of different things, but I guess most of my experience was in kind of fashion and beauty. And that was always sort of the path that I wanted to go down. And then always kind of had a thing for packaging, especially when I was in school. So I kind of was able to merge those two things together, you know, the beauty fashion side of it, and then the packaging and design side of it. And that's sort of how I ended up where I am now. I love that, especially being able to figure out what your different passions are and combine them all into one job, I think is a really special thing. And yeah, Whitney's worked at Alburns, which is the brand that oversees like Beth and Body Works, Victoria Secret, she's also worked at Alff, Vanessa Latter, and then now at TARC, so you definitely have this beauty history, which is really cool. Yeah, I did a lot of like freelance contract type jobs. So that's why if you like look at my resume or my background, there's like a lot of like short term jobs. So I guess in the, you know, if you're a designer, I think it, you know, you can take those type of freelance short term jobs as well. And I kind of saw that as, well, it became an advantage for me, I think, because I was able to work with a bunch of different companies, learn from different people within those companies, and kind of go from place to place and just get that experience before I really landed on something more prominent. I'm excited to dive into your freelance experience, because I think what you said there, so important and such, a great way to get experience. And it's also hard to get into that, I think, at the beginning, if you don't know what you're doing. So I'm excited to jump in and like also see what you did there, because I know a lot of girls that are also interested in that freelance space, and typically the hardest part there is just getting started, but then like you said, you were able to build up a ton of experience, but these big brands ended up then landing you in the hour while at Tarte. Yeah, totally. Okay, so we're going to rewind to the clock way back. Okay. Way back to your bachelor's, but you got in graphic design. Yeah. So if you could just me tell me a little bit about this kind of early stage in your career of starting in graphic design, before you kind of started to switch into where you are now. Sure. So well, before I even got into college and graphic design, I was very unsure about what I wanted to do, just coming out of high school. The funny thing is that when I first started college, I was a psychology major. That only lasted for one semester. I still really do love psychology and I find it very interesting, but I didn't feel that that was the right career path for me. I always loved being creative. And when I was a senior in high school, I took a graphic design, kind of like an intro to graphic design type of course. I mean, back then it was just super basic, like really basic Photoshop and illustrator skills. I remember like making some type of like collage or like designing like a label for a suit kit. Really basic things, but I really enjoyed that. And I remember having the thought like, "Oh, could this actually be a career path for me? Like is this actually a thing that I could do?" So that's sort of where the idea came from. And then once I was already in school and I, you know, like I said, I was a psychology major and I was like, "This really isn't for me." I decided to switch my major. So I originally went to like more just a general like liberal arts school. So I went to Momath University, which is a New Jersey. I'm from New Jersey. And so it was a good experience for me. Just getting into that program got to be, you know, really creative, learn a lot about myself and what kind of things I was interested in. The downside I think though is that I felt that like a lot of like schools that are more kind of tailored to design programs have stronger like industry connections, especially for internships, which I think is really important. If you're, you know, trying to get into the field and maybe work in more of like a corporate setting. So I feel like because of that, I don't want, well, I suffered a little bit because of that, I think. Just getting your first like put in the door your first job after getting that degree. Yeah. So, you know, at the time when I graduated, it was 2009. And that was during the like a recession. So it wasn't the best time to graduate. And I was also living in central New Jersey, which, I mean, there are some design opportunities that you could find, but it wasn't the best place for someone in a creative field to be. Luckily, I wasn't too far from New York City. So I decided to, you know, move further north. And I moved to Jersey City, which is where I still live now. I've been here for 12 years, which is crazy. But I decided to go back to school at FIT Fashion Institute of Technology in the city. At the time, I was sort of thinking about maybe changing careers. I still wanted to stay in a design career. But I was thinking about maybe doing something more large scale, like exhibitions for museums, you know, more like 3D type stuff. So I had found this master's program at FIT that I was thinking, oh, like this could be really like a good step for me to like kind of, you know, maybe do this master's program and then see where I can go from there. Things kind of wanted a different direction, because that master's program was super small. They only accepted maybe like 25 people a year. A lot of the people that were in the program were older, like had been established in their careers or they were from outside of the US. Right? So I felt like I had a very slim chance of getting in. I was like 20, 23 years old at the time. I had maybe a year or two of experience working. And yeah, but I just decided like I'm going to go for it. So I took these classes at FIT, which were in their continuing Ed program, which, you know, they were kind of just some supplemental classes. So I could beef up my portfolio, because most of my portfolio was, you know, graph design 2D type of stuff. So I did that for I think it was two years. I applied to the master's program and I didn't end up getting in, which, you know, after a couple years of like working towards that, it is definitely a disappointment, right? It's a led down to have all that build up to something and then it doesn't happen. But, you know, I let myself be sad about it for a day or two, you know, little time just to get over it, kind of more in the loss of that idea. And I thought like, am I, do I want to do this again? Or should I just kind of go in a different direction now? So after doing all that, I didn't really want to do it again, like reapply. So I decided to move on from there, but the good thing was that, But while I was at FIT, I met Bill, and I was able to connect with people in the industry where I could kind of get some better jobs. So one of my professors at FIT worked for this, well, it doesn't exist anymore, but it was a store called Daffy's. And if you're from New York or like Northern New Jersey, you may be remembered it. It was like one of a maybe like a TJ Max kind of situation where they would sell higher and stuff but for less. So one of my professors was the creative director for Daffy's at the time. She had worked there for a long time. And we were doing a project in one of the classes I was in with her where we had to use Photoshop and she saw that I knew how to use it really well and I was actually helping other people in the class with this specific thing for the project because I remember we had to make some kind of logo or something to print out for this display. I don't exactly remember all the details, but she asked me, do you know how to use Photoshop? And I said, yeah, I actually have, I went to school already for graphic design, I have a degree in it. And she said, oh, that's great. Will you come, would you be able to freelance for us, for the holidays because we need some extra help? And so that's kind of how I made my way in to doing that. Incredible. I have some little question that you ask, you know, and everything that you just went through. Yeah, that was like a whole long story. But yeah, go ahead. I'm curious because you mentioned how you got this degree in graphic design, your school was known for it and then when it began to find a job, you were just really struggling. How was it like choosing a degree like graphic design? Because I know sometimes it's kind of like psychology and it's like the stereotypical like, oh, you're going to choose a degree in psychology or graphic design. Like, is there even a career you can get out of that? And obviously, as Margot is a huge opportunity for a graphic designer. But did you have to go against any of that, you know, perception, outwardly perception to, you know, pursue this passion that you had for design? Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, most people around me at the time, people that, you know, if they weren't in the field especially, were like, well, what are you going to do with that? You know, like, oh, if you, you know, once you graduate, but what's your job going to be when you graduate? Like, so what's your plan after you graduate? Like, not even considering that, oh, you know, this is my plan. You know, so I did have a lot of pushback from some people in my life, which, you know, when you're trying to, when you're young and you're trying to, you know, figure out what you want to do and get into something that maybe is in as, like, as a traditional path as, you know, another career would be, it's hard to have that pushback, you know, you really have to, you know, be like an advocate for yourself and tell yourself, I know it sounds kind of silly, but tell yourself, like, I can do this. This is what I'm going to do, like, you know, just keep it in your mind that this is what, you know, I'm meant to do and I will find a way to do it. Yeah, it is, I think, something that a lot of young people struggle with have been like, I love this and I want to do this so that everyone else kind of questioning you and when you're young, you don't really have that, you know, you kind of, you trust the people around you the most to tell you. Yes. It can be very, very difficult when you are having the closest people to you, tell you, you know, making use of that, I can guess what you are truly passionate about. And then for you to also then graduate and then have difficulty then starting to get this, to get your foot in the door, you ended up making the decision to go back and get some extra schooling and I know there's some people that are also interested in that, right? Maybe they've just graduated. They're having a tough time in the job market. Can you maybe speak to a little bit about that decision to go back and consider getting and then get into that last year's program, but going back into school and like what your thoughts are on doing that when you are feeling stuck in your job search? Sure. So I think for me, I like, well, I was, I did feel kind of stuck. I think I felt limited by where I was, you know, physically located at the time and also felt like, you know, maybe there was more out there for me in terms of, you know, design related education that I could get. And I know like, you know, school isn't always everything like, you know, you can get experience in other ways as well. But I felt that, you know, at the time, I sort of wanted to, like I said, still stay in a design field, but maybe try something that's a little bit different. And I also knew I need to like, I need to get out of here, you know? So I think, I mean, I know now there's just, there's a lot more like remote opportunities, but at the time that really wasn't even a thing, right? Yeah. So I felt like where you live? Yes. So I felt that, you know, me going to New York, that I had to do it. Like I was very scared. I, you know, grew up in a small town. I wasn't, you know, I didn't have a ton of experience being in a city at the time. And now looking back, it's like so fun made of me because, you know, everyone's like, oh, you're such a city person. But it's, you know, I felt that, that was what I had to do. Sometimes you have to do something that's a little bit scary to make that change in order to get closer to that goal. Yeah. And obviously, you can see now that it worked out for you, but when you're in those moments, definitely very, very scary, especially moving to a new place too. I've talked to, I've heard a lot of women on the podcast and I've had to make similar choices or moving somewhere completely new. And I think definitely has changed since the pandemic because, the more remote opportunities, a lot, it's more normalized to just like, pick up and move somewhere new. I live in Austin now without having a visited Austin. I moved during the pandemic. So I think it's cool to see that being a little bit more normalized and opening up opportunities for people. And I want to also now, so this is kind of beginning your transition into going a little bit into package design, which I'm really excited to talk about. So if you want me to tell me a little bit, is your kind of your first role doing this packaging design, your freelance role at TriStar products or why did this kind of begin for you? Okay. So the first, my first experience with doing packaging design was in school when, you know, I was getting my bachelor's degree. I did a project for a class I was in and I was like, wow, I really love this. And I actually, like my senior year, I did an independent study in packaging design because I just wanted to like, you know, go further into it, learn more about it. And then, yeah, so that I think the first role where I actually kind of was able to use that was when I worked for TriStar, which was this as seen on TV brand. And, you know, so when you, I don't, I don't know if they still have these like info marshals now, right? But back, you probably remember them. You know, watching TV, like when you were a kid or whatever, these info marshals that would come on TV about, you know, like juicers or these like various, like products you could buy. I don't, the juicer really stands out to me. But that was one of their major products was this juicer. But yeah, so when I went to work there, they had me work on some, you know, various like packaging products. So our projects, somewhere like kitchen related. So like you had the juicer. There was some kind of like cookware set, you know, pots and pans. You know, this isn't anything too fancy. But it was good experience. And then I think so one, one couple of things that I worked on there were like hair care tools. So like curling iron type situation. So with that, I was really able to go more into that beauty type of realm. And it was cool because I got to do, I mean, I really did everything with it. They kind of gave the project to me. We're like, okay, like, you know, just do it from start to finish. So all the concepting, the design, you know, obviously I, there was an art director that I worked with and he kind of like at the time oversaw me and, you know, I would run things by him. But that was sort of my first project to that I used in my portfolio to then go into this more of like the beauty industry. And then then led you over to Albrand that she then worked on Bath and Body Works and Victoria Secret and then very much leveled up in the package design that you were doing there. Yeah, definitely. I mean, between. So while I was doing that work, the as seen on TV company, that's when I was kind of finishing up that time at FIT. So I was still going to school and then once I didn't get into that master's program, I was like, okay, this is my time to really decide what I'm gonna do from here. Like I need to really level up my career if I'm not gonna do this school situation, like the master's thing. So I went on a lot of interviews. I think probably in the course of three to four months, I went on 15 job interviews, like in person. Yeah, so this is, I mean, now it's great with like Zoom and everything, but like during that time, there was no Zoom, there was no, you know, virtual interviewing, it was all, you go there, you meet them, type of thing. So, you know, I was working, I would go, and then it's the time I was working in New Jersey still, so I would go from New Jersey into the city, like on all these interviews, somewhere obviously better than others, but that was definitely an experience. And I, you know, had moments where I was like, is this gonna work out? But I kept pushing, I kept going, and I finally got the interview with El Brans, which I think now they're not really, they're not called that anymore, they split into Victoria's Secret and Bath & Body Works is their own entities, but at the time, El Brans was like the overarching umbrella for them and a couple of other companies. I got the interview there, it was started as a, like a temporary job, like a, you know, couple months like position, but I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna take it and we'll see what happens. So, I got that job, I went there, I started as, you know, a temporary employee, and then eventually, I think maybe after about a year, so they converted me to a full time employee, which was great, and I stayed there for, I think it was maybe like three and a half years. So, what was some of the things, like switching from a freelance doing like, you know, exciting stuff for AC and MTV, to then going to, you know, I'm sure back, this time, Victoria's Secret was probably huge and the same with Bath & Body Works, so did the stakes feel higher, did you feel more pressure, or kind of what was this transition like for you? - I mean, it was definitely a change because that was my first job working, you know, in New York City, so, you know, just the whole working in New York, that was definitely a change, you know, I guess the role itself, because I went from before just doing more straight up, like, the design part of it, like the concepting, the actual, you know, development design part of the job, to then moving into more of a production based role, which at the time, like, I didn't really know what that meant, because they didn't really, you know, when you're in school, they don't, at least when I was in school, they didn't say like, oh, there are these, there's this other aspect of, you know, of graphic design called production, like, what is that? You know, you may, like, some people, you know, if you're in the industry, you're kind of familiar with it, you, they may hear the term, like, production artist. I personally like to call myself a production designer, because I still consider myself a designer, and I think the word, the word artist, like, is kind of strange, but that's what a lot of times, what they call the role. So when I went into this job, they told me, okay, you know, this is gonna be more, like, 60% production, and like, maybe like, 30, 40% design, I'm like, how do I get to 100 there? And you just, like, that's what I'm saying. It was like more so production, and then, you know, a little bit of design. So I was like, okay, sure, I guess, like, I get, like, sign me up. And it was more, it was doing, you know, design artwork for all their international, you know, products. So basically taking most of the stuff that you see here in the US, like, so think back in body works, like, so candles, their fragrances, lotion, all that stuff. And then converting the artwork that they use on those products into being, you know, an international design. So that would be like adding translations to the artwork. We did a lot of work also with the Middle East. So in the Middle East, you can't use, like, certain imagery, certain terminology in those markets. So we would kind of have to, like, redesign some of that. But I guess maybe I'm getting a little ahead of myself, but I definitely, you know, going in, I was, I really didn't, I kind of didn't know what I was getting myself into. But I knew I had, you know, a design background. I knew, you know, I could do the job, but I didn't really know everything that I felt like I needed to know. And I think that's also a thing like, you know, sometimes when we're looking at jobs, we see they have all these things listed out like we should be able to do ABC and D. And maybe we only know how to do A and B, but you could learn C and D on the job. So I think it's still important to be like, okay, maybe this doesn't 100% meet what I've done in the past, but I can learn how to do this, you know. And I learned a lot on the job and from people like my co-workers, people that were more senior level than me at the time that had been doing this type of work for years, I learned a lot from them. That's really interesting to see that shift in. Or I didn't even know that was a nuance in design. Yeah. Interesting to hear that. Did you enjoy this production piece versus the graphic design? Or did you, is that something that, or kind of what did you learn, I guess, about yourself in that role or what you liked? So I did like the job. You know, I liked the things that I was working on. I think when I first started, I was mainly just doing, you know, their home fragrance products, which was like the candles and those little like plugins and things that you see, room sprays. And then as I got further, you know, into it, I started kind of working on everything. I was a little unsure at first because, you know, I really, I still enjoy being creative and doing, you know, concepting and, you know, coming up with ideas and doing the research beforehand that, that goes into, you know, the initial designing process. And the production aspect is more technical. It's funny because I was before, you know, we had this, you know, the, we were going to be recording. I was like, okay, I'm going to have to explain what production is. And because a lot of people, you know, they're like production, what is that? It could be so many different things, you know, like, and there, you know, there could be production in like film, there can be production in design. Like it could just, it could really mean so many different things. So I was like, okay, let's do a quick Google search and see like what Google says when you look up like production designer. And I thought it was really interesting, like a couple things that I found that were like, oh, you know, production designers are the on sun, on sun heroes, you know, in the design world. And I was like, you know what, that is kind of true because basically, like just thinking of the timeline of a project. So you have like your initial design process where you go through, like the concepting coming up with the idea, you know, research, like, you know, doing the actual design coming up with different options. And then finally, landing on your final design. So, you know, you're the designer will do that in some companies. The designer might do the design and the production piece in a lot of them. They're separate. So let's say they're separate. The designer does everything up until the final design is, you know, it's complete. And then it goes over to the, to go into production, which is basically, like what I tell people is making everything perfect. So it's very technical. If you're a perfectionist, it's a great, it's a great job for you, which I mean, I, I mean, I am. So it kind of played into that aspect of my personality. So it's, you know, setting up the file for production, for print to make sure that, you know, it's everything. It looks good that, you know, all the images are correct. That all the type looks good. It's set up in a specific way for the printer and then creating a final file that then gets sent out to the vendor so that they can print it and put it into production on their end. Yeah, that's, I've never even knew that would be a specific role. So it's really interesting. Yeah. Definitely a lot of perfectionists out there that would enjoy that type of technical and attention to detail. Yeah. The thing is saying that if that is someone, if you are someone that likes things very detailed and enjoys attention to details. that is probably a good area for you to work in. - It is. It is very detail oriented. And I think it depends on the brand and the company too. Like some companies are more specific than others on depending on like what type of printers they're working with and how, you know, they like to do things like I know when I've, so for example, like when I worked for S.D. Lauder, which was another more of like a freelance role for me, I, they were very, very specific on how they wanted their files. Like if something was like 0.5 millimeters off, they would send it back. So very, very specific. Like especially from, you know, what I had come from to then go into that and be like, whoa, okay, I need to like, I thought I was like really, you know, fine tuning things here, but they want it to be extremely accurate, which was at the time a little, you know, discouraging for me at times because things would get sent back, but it made me better at my job because I had that experience where I had to be on point, right? So then when I went off until, you know, I went to Tarte after that, I was able to like, harness kind of all these things from these different roles that I had had before and then bring that with me into my, you know, next role. And you just know that yet you mentioned this S.D. Lauder once. So after your time at Elbrens, for about a year, two years you went and did freelance for Elf and you also did freelance for S.D. Lauder before then. That's going to where you are now. So can you talk about leaving from this full, from a full time role to then doing freelance for a while and why you chose to go that route? Sure. So the kind of back story behind that is I actually left Elbrens for another full time job, which I won't really get into all the details of, but it didn't work out for me. It was not a the right fit. I thought it was going to be great. It was for another beauty company. So I thought it was really going to like be a big step up for me. But I had worked with a recruiter to get this position. And I think some things maybe got lost in the process because when I got to this job, it was not a creative job at all. And I was like, I have no idea what I'm doing. They handed me an IBM laptop and I was like, I'm not going to use this. So it was a little bit of a scary time. I left that I left after a month, which is something that I've never done before. I always made sure I had something lined up if I was going to leave. But I left because I felt like it was the best thing for me and I needed to do that, even though I didn't really have a safety net there. So that's kind of how I got back into doing freelance stuff. I had some connections from my previous jobs that got me the freelance work at Elf. So I went there for a couple months, which was good. Another experience at the time, they were kind of functioning more of like a startup mentality there. So I kind of went from these more corporate atmosphere to then this more casual startup type of atmosphere and then going back into doing that beauty packaging, which I liked. But yeah, that was my plan. Was let me just freelance for a little while, figure out what I want to do from here, at least have something where I'm bringing in money until I can figure out the next step. I have a friend that's something similar had happened where he got a job or actually has an issue with a graphic designer as well. It didn't end up like, hey, didn't end up being, or just didn't like, didn't follow through, I guess. And then I'm just like you said, it's really scary when you've always had a job lined up. You go to start on a new place and it either the job falls through or we're in for your case. It's not what you expected. You're just like, well, I just left something that was really completely on my own again. And so I really admire your ability then to go and like be able to go back on those past connections and transition into freelance. I think that's a really great option for those of you who may find yourself in a similar situation in the battlefield where, like, okay, this is not like work out the way I wanted and obviously you need income coming in. And so the freelance route is a very, very smart one that you can do when you're in this marketing or creative field. Definitely. I think once you kind of have been in the industry for a little while, you get you meet people. Those people know people, you keep kind of those connections open. And those people are, you know, they're willing to help you out because it doesn't-- when you're in that situation, you think, oh my god, the world is ending. How did this happen to me? I've been so like-- I've worked so hard. I've kind of been so methodical with like how I've like, you know, picked these jobs and like made sure they were the right thing for me. But sometimes, you know, things they just don't go according to plan. And it's good to have, you know, those connections, those people to, you know, be there to be like, oh, you know, I think I know someone that's looking for someone or, you know, like, or just asking, like, if you hear anything, like, just let me, you know, keep an eye out, like, they're willing to, you know, to be those, you know, connections for you, which I think is really great. And this thing happens, like, like you said, it happened to a friend of yours. It happened to me. It happened to another friend of mine, like, within this past year, like a similar situation. And it sucks, like, it sucks when it happens. But, you know, you've got to-- you have to just be able to push through and, you know, use those connections and then know that you will land back on your feet at some point. One thing I'm curious about me is I'm assuming you have a portfolio of all your design work. So one thing I love talking about is portfolios. And I'm imagining yours is amazing if it has also been able to get you in this brilliant role. So can we take a little tangent? And can you tell me maybe just a little bit about your portfolio or advice you have when it comes to, like, building your portfolio and maintaining your portfolio? I feel like it's more common in the graphic design role to have portfolios. And I feel like it's less common in just general marketing, but I think it's equally as important. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah, of course. So your portfolio, obviously, you want to showcase your best work, right? When you first get out of school, that's probably going to be school projects. You know, things you did while you were in school or maybe if you picked up some little, like, freelance side gigs on the side include that. And then as you kind of move through your career, you always want to be editing it down, right? Always be showcasing the best work. So, you know, if I'm maybe five, six, seven years into my career, I'm probably not going to be showing my, you know, school projects anymore, right? So I love your thing editing down. Yeah, I always share with the same kind of accelerator. I was like, I've seen more portfolios that are 100 pages long for no good reason at all. It's too much. Yeah. And it should be the average of the work on there, not the sum. And so, yeah, you're right. Take out all that old stuff. Absolutely. You, you know, let's say you have like 50 pieces, right? Like I could have 50 pieces from the past, even like five years or something like that and even less time. But I don't, you know, you don't need to show all of that. It's really like how can I present my best self? Like what were the best, you know, things that I worked on that I was really proud of or I got really good feedback on? And you can always, you know, show it to, you know, other people you know, like, hey, can you take a look at this and let me know what you think, you know, or if you have like a mentor or somebody else in the industry, like that can kind of look at your work and say, okay, keep this, but maybe take this out, you know, if you're really unsure of what you want to keep and like go love, but I think it is important to really, you know, as you're, you know, going through your career and applying for jobs to really keep in mind like what, like what am I showing and what's showcasing me in the best light? Yeah, I love that advice of keeping it as simplified as possible. And I'm assuming this had paid off for you because after this little stand of doing freelance with Alpha, Dusty Lauder, you ended up your current role now, Tarte. So I'd love to talk about that transition and a little more about what you do at Tarte. Sure. So when I was working at Dusty Lauder, a coworker of mine had gotten, I think it was like a LinkedIn message from someone at Tarte, like an HR person, you know, they had an open job and he told me he was like, oh, you know, I'm not really interested in this because it's packaging, but, you know, would you be interested and at the time, you know, I wanted to get back into more of a full time, something that was more stable. Because with the freelance thing, it can be great. But especially with these, you know, if you're doing like an extended period, like, of time for a company, let's say, you know, three, six months, whatever, sometimes they can just say, Hey, we don't need you anymore. And you've got a couple days notice. And you know, so you're kind of, you know, you're out of a job. But so I wanted to get back to something that was a little more stable. Luckily, this coworker of mine, you know, had gotten this message and he thought of me. So that's like I said in the, you know, before like, make the make connections with people that you work with, like, you know, so that when these things come up, like they'll think of you. So he sent this to me. And that's how I got in touch with, you know, HR at the heart. I think at the time, the job was more of like a visual merchandising position. It was production, but for visual merchandising. And so when I went in for the interview, I was like, I don't really think this is the right fit for me. And of course, coming off of that previous experience a couple years prior, or was like a two years or something ago, where that bad situation happened to me. I was kind of extra like, you know, my ears were like really like, oh, is like hearing various things. Is this right? Should I really be, you know, I need to kind of listen to my gut, whether or not this role is right for me or not. And I think that's important to do, you know, as you're applying for jobs, not just taking something because it's available. So I, you know, told them, I'm not, I didn't really want to take that position because it wasn't right for me. But if something else comes up, you know, keep me in mind. So which is exactly what happened. I think it wasn't that, you know, not much time went by and they reached out to me again and said, we have this packaging position that just opened. Would you be interested in coming, you know, back in and interviewing with our packaging team, which is, you know, what I did, it went really well. And that's how I ended up there. And like I said, I've been there for a little over five years. So obviously I like it. But yeah, so at heart, I, you know, I do all of the packaging production work. I'm the only packet, I'm the only production person on the team. And the good thing about when I went into that role is that I could kind of make it my own, which I really loved, right? I could use all of this experience that I had had from these previous positions to then mold this role into what I wanted it to be. And, you know, like I had those experiences and the knowledge from like I was talking about like those really like doing all those really specific little things from my time at S.D. Lauder. And so I could bring all of that with me and be like, okay, this is how I'm going to, you know, I'm going to approach this position, which it was great to have that opportunity to do that. And so I, like I said, I do all the packaging production work there, setting up all of the production files. We, so basically what we do is once the file is ready or the artwork is ready, it gets sent out to other teams in the company to review it comes back. And then once it's approved, we release it to our vendors who then go who print and put everything into production. So I handle all of that. So working very closely with the packaging designers and my boss who's the VP of design. And then I also another part of my job, which I picked up while I was there, I think after the first year. So is I also work very closely with our photography on 10 team. So I, I work with them on all the photos that we use for packaging. So basically, you know, just think about when you are in a Sephora or Ulta and you're looking at the box that has an image of like blush or bronze or lipstick or whatever it is, you know, we shoot all that in house. And then I review those images before, you know, we finalize them for the physical, you know, packaging work really closely with the photo retouchers to review and give direction to them on how, you know, we want the imagery to look because it's especially after the pandemic. Having photo or image, you know, on the, on the packaging became a very important thing because before that, you know, you could go into store, open it up, like look at it, swatch things, like see what it looks like. But then during COVID, you know, they weren't doing that. There was no sampling. You wanted to be able to see when you picked up the box, okay, this is what I'm getting, right? So that became a very important component of that process. So you are involved in many different aspects. I can see. Yes. What it comes to this. I would love to hear is there a packaging that you are most proud of at Tara or is there a product that you worked on that you're just, is your favorite? Let's say, well, I mean, I really love the Mara-Cooja Juicy Lip Plum. That's probably one of my favorite products. I'm wearing it right now. So that's, I mean, they come in, we've done so many colors and then that kind of became its own. It started as just like a lip balm and then it sort of became like, it off-shooted into like all these different variations of that. So we've done so many different colors and like from plum to like more of a gloss to a lip liner. Like there's just so many different. It became its own little like mini like brand within a brand. Yeah. And then I want to, I guess the like eyeshadow palettes are probably, you know, one of the things that are the most involved to work on, especially if it's like one of like a larger palette. So when we do like stuff for the holiday season, we're gonna, you know, there's more palettes, they're larger, there's going to be more color variations. So just, you know, working on that just to see the final product when it, you know, the physical packaging when it comes out as a production sample or even in stores, it's just so cool to see because you think about like all the hard work that you put into that. And just to be like, you know, physically see something that you worked on like out in the world. It's just very rewarding. And it's kind of like a little pat on the back like, hey, I did that, you know. That must be really really cool. So yeah, I can imagine like going into the stores and being like, I designed this, I designed that. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. It's cool to see, you know, your work come to life. Can you walk me through what the process is like, I'm curious on more. So like the ideation, even like before it comes to actually making the design itself of like, let's say tar launches a new product and you guys have to go and design, you know, the packaging for that. And I know earlier, you mentioned that some like research goes into that, but I would love to hear kind of what your, kind of how you approach that process. So I don't, I don't necessarily work on that aspect of the process so much there. I mean, so our team, like our team is called creative packaging. We have, there's two other designers on the team that do most of the like, concepting and design work. And then it comes to me for like the production aspect of it. So I mean, I can speak a little bit to it from like what I know and see and experience, but it's not, you know, I'm not like totally involved with all of that. So you know, they do a lot of, they'll do like mood boards, like, concepting for that to kind of show like, okay, like these are different, like ideas that we might want to go with. There's obviously a lot of the CEO is still very involved with the creative process. So like most of these things get run by her or if she has, you know, any ideas that she wants to incorporate into the design, you know, she's overseeing, you know, a lot of the the packaging. So very involved with that. And then, you know, they might narrow it down to like a couple different ideas. They'll do sampling, you know, getting in physical samples from like the vendor that they may go with to see what it looks like in person. And then, you know, there'll be some, there might be some back and forth there. Like, oh, we want like, say it's like a lip, like a lip gloss or, you know, lipstick, like a tube. Like, oh, we want this to look more blue where we want it to be more yellow or it needs to, you know, be more iridescent or something like that, you know. But then again, like I'm kind of on the outside of this, right? So I sort of like watch all of this happen. And, you know, I then once it's kind of all finalized, you know, they have landed on their final design, the CEO, was she approves the design that she likes. It then comes to me and then I do the final production work on that and then still kind of even before that involved with the photos, but that also takes place after everything's finalized. So there is a lot that goes into it. When we see a physical just makeup itself or any product, we just see the physical product, but there's all these things that go into it, different teams working together to make sure that it gets to that final stage. Super interesting. I love you talking about this, that we could talk for the final stage. The whole process is, but I think it's really cool. Because if you are listening and you are so interested in creative work or design, just knowing that there are so many ways for you to get involved, and especially even just in this packaging. So if you do find this interesting, I encourage you all to explore more on what these different roles look like and how it breaks down. I am curious, when we've gone through so much about your career journey now, you ended up here. But I know outside of your job, you are also a yoga teacher and you also have a very good sense of how it works. So I would love to hear more about that. Sure, I'm like, I realized I didn't even get into that at all, but yet, but yes, I am a yoga instructor. I've been teaching for six years now. So I went through training, obviously, to become certified. It did a 200 hour training, which is like-- Yeah. Which is the standard training to become a yoga instructor. So 200 hour training. And then after that, I did kind of a more specialized training. So I mainly teach power yoga. So I kind of did a more specialized training in power yoga. And then that's kind of where I'm at now. Usually I just teach two classes a week, because I do work full time. So it's just my side thing that I enjoy doing. And yeah, I mean, it's been great to have that outside of my design career. Because it does still have creativity involved in it. I have to come up with my classes. I create all the sequences. I create my playlists for my classes. And it's also-- I see it as a way for me to give back to people. I think yoga has done so much for me personally. And I just-- I love being able to bring it to others and have it make a positive impact in their lives as well. That's beautiful. I love hearing about it. I love hearing about how important it is for you to have something outside of your 9 to 5. And I think doing a becoming yoga instructor is a great alternative. It's funny how this is not like all my podcasts. And I've had a handful of girls in marketing that also are yoga teachers on the side. I never knew this. Oh, it's great. So I love hearing about it. And I can tell something you're passionate about. And I can assume it's been a lot of fulfillment out of two, which is absolutely amazing. Definitely. And again, we just talked about so much. This has been so fun. My last question for you here is, if you just have any advice for someone who wants to have a career similar to yours, or what would you share with them? Well, I think the important thing is to find what you're passionate about and really stick to that. Like, it's OK if other people aren't doing the same thing that you're doing. It's OK to mess up along the way, too, right? But even if other people aren't going the same route as you, it's OK to continue on your path and do what's important to you. And I think that is how you will find the most fulfilling career for you is by following your gut and your instinct and doing what feels best for you. And then there's going to be obviously a lot of-- I personally faced a lot of rejection along the way, trying not to let those things get you down. I mean, it's OK to feel your feelings at the time and go through that. That's totally fine. But try to keep going. I've had people come to me that are early on in their careers and say, I've applied for all these jobs. Like, I'm not getting any responses or I'm interviewing and I'm not getting these jobs. And it's going to happen, especially now. I feel like it's so challenging to find the right job and to even get interviews. But you have to just keep going, keep applying, keep your resume updated, keep your portfolio updated, make those connections, utilize them. And when you're in a job, learn, utilize those people that are in similar roles or maybe higher up up the ladder than you who can really teach you about the industry or show you even just little tips here and there on how to do certain things when you're on the job. Because I felt that really made a huge difference for me was utilizing those senior people and learning from them. And eventually, I think putting in the work, it just, it does make the difference. Like, hard work does pay off. It did for me at least. Like, I felt like I really, I mean, I don't know if I can say this, but I really busted my ass to get somewhere from nowhere with not a lot of connections. So if I can do it, you can too. - Perfect way to end this episode. I'm off pumped up. I love that. Thank you so much, Whitney, for sharing your wisdom in your journey. I absolutely appreciate it. It has been so much fun talking to you. So thank you again for coming on the Sky Society podcast. Of course, thank you so much for having me. And it's been an honor to be here and to talk to you today. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review. You can also join our private LinkedIn group for Women in Marketing. It's called Sky Society, Women in Marketing. And you are welcome to join us on LinkedIn. And you can also follow us on Instagram and TikTok at skysociety.co for more information on all things marketing and career. And I'll see you in the next episode.