#8/ Small Talk with Heiko from Vitra

So, good afternoon. I have with me today a quite recent friend. I think we met first time a couple of months back, three months back, maybe here in the studio. So we have with us Haiko from Vitor, Haiko. I don't know. Thanks for having me. Thank you for coming all the way. Great pleasure. Just for podcasts. That's one day we're going to be so famous that people will come just for podcasts. If I can help with that one, I'm more than happy. I'm sure you are the right guy to help me because one of the, so we met at business gathering. So, Salim from Vitor Middle East brought you here. You were with your suitcase on the way to the airport. So you are not supposed to spend too much time here. But then you enter this office and you saw the bicycle and that's where things change forever. It was the moment you saw the bicycle. Obviously, Vitor has nothing to do with cycling, I think. No, not really. Maybe you should do saddles. Well, our CEO is using always the bike to come to the office. So maybe there is a connection to bikes. And I don't think it's saying a lot that to say that she's a triadlet. She's a triadlet. Very kind of ambitious triadlet. The only time I met her, she was taking it very seriously. Talking about triathlon. So, when you came, we didn't have too much time to talk, but we realized that we had a lot of things in common. And then, some days later, you told me, are you coming to Milan for the design? I was not going, I went. We had a really nice dinner together, spent more time today. So, since we met last time, we met in several countries. So, we met in Italy. We met in Copenhagen in Denmark. And we met in Switzerland and Germany just in two months. So, it has been quite a quite a ride. And the reason for that is because, and maybe I will start there, is because we found that we have something in common, which is we like to connect people. Is that the reason why we have been connecting? That's the reason why we are connecting. And I think if we connect people, we never see numbers of business at first. I think we see the exchange of people and ideas at first and never have numbers in mind and creating business with it. I think that was all of the same with you. That we thought, look, let's connect people together. And if there is an outcome, business wise, fine. If not, we can learn from each other. I remember that I say certain, my team knows that. I repeat certain sentences a lot. And there's a sentence that I say a lot and nobody cares. Or usually they don't take me seriously. And you are one of those people that, when I said the sentence, your eyes open and you said, I completely agree with that, which is business is a consequence or making money is a consequence of this long-term relationship. Now, that's not normally in our environment. It's not normal. I always say to my team, look, the numbers and the budget is a consequence of what we are doing every day. But it should not be our driver. And I think this is a complete different kind of perspective. Because we love, we like what we are doing. We have the passion of what we are doing. And I'm not sure if there is a youth passion about numbers or achieving something. It's a great passion. But to do this, to have the creativity to do something, to create something, to come to the numbers. This is why we're here for. Yeah. And that's another perspective I have on that, which is if someone starts a relationship, professional or personal, because of money, they will also end it because of money, because there's always someone giving more money, making a bigger offer, or selling furniture cheaper, or so ultimately, if money is the reason to join, it's also the reason to leave. But if the relationship goes through, in the case of VITRA, and we'll talk a little bit about that, comes through a passion for something, then we make business. We are seated on VITRA chairs right now with a VITRA table in front of us that has nothing to do with our business. It's something that comes from a common passion for good design. And then the business comes as a consequence. I'm trying to be disciplined with Johnny's questions. But so let's go a little bit back. So the first question was how did we meet? So that was how we met. And we'll talk a little bit more about what happened in the times that we met around the world. But we need to talk about VITRA, because the reason why we met was because of VITRA. So I started Slush's relationship with VITRA 2009 with a campus visit, where we took a client, a very important client, to campus, because they were about to finish their full headquarters. And we wanted to convince them to do it with VITRA. Obviously, I knew Charles Ames or Charles Ames before. I knew, well, Alvarato was not VITRA till then. But I knew all those designers. And it was always this idea of, sorry, but it's the perception of expensive furniture. Then I went to campus and my perspective changed completely about how I saw the company. I already respected the furniture, but the company, for me, was just a furniture company. And then I went to campus. And it's really unfair to try to explain campus to people that have never been there. Because when we say campus people think about, yeah, office and buildings. And only if you go there, you understand. So what can you tell us about VITRA for the people that don't know VITRA? And more importantly, what can you tell us about campus? That's, we have how long? As long as I can. Let's give me two or three minutes to explain a little bit about VITRA. VITRA started in the 30s, founded by Billy and Erika Philbaum, Swiss German couple. They were like a shop fitter. They did a shop fitting company. And after the second robot, around the 50s, Billy Philbaum needed a new inspiration and thought about, let's find something new what we can do. So he traveled to the U.S. without speaking one word of English and was walking around in New York and saw a Eames chair, the plywood chair in red. And he walked into the Hermemiller store. Not the lounge chair. It was really the plywood chair in red. So because the, the special things these days, what he, what he's seen was like plywood to bend plywood was a quite challenging thing these days. So he walked in and said, I want to produce that chair. And the guys from Hermemiller said, look, no, you can't produce a chair. You can buy the chair, but you can't produce it. And he said, let's wait and see who's a designer, who's behind. So then the whole thing started. These days, there was no emails. There was no facts. There was nothing. There was just letters writing. And it took like two or three years until they connected. The Eames became very close friends to the Philbaum family. And without the Eames, we wouldn't be who we are. So I mean, without that coincidence, running into that red chair, I think we would not be who we are these days. Out of the friendship, we created and all the Eames products for the European market. So we are only allowed to sell it in the European market and the Middle East market. The US and Far East and Australia are still under Milanol. But we then started to sell this. And in the 70s, we created our first own chair, which was the Pantone chair. And Pantone was really from the designing quite advanced also. So our engineer struggled a little bit at the beginning to create the chair. So when a Pantone decided, I moved to Basel. So he moved from Denmark to Basel to explain our engineer what they have to do, how they have to do. But it took like five years until the chair, the Pantone chair came to market. And from there on, we started rolling. And we had the first biosynchronous task chair. So the whole thing got started. There was a first generation. In the 70s, Billion Erika Philbaum handed over to the second generation, which was Rema and Rolf Philbaum. And their mission after the commercial mission was the cultural mission. So Rolf had that idea with the campus. We were, our factory were destroyed by a fire. So he started a little bit of an architectural competition with Nicholas Grimshaw had the idea of the campus. So the whole thing started again with the campus. After Grimshaw, there was a Geary building, after Geary building, there was Salati, then was Tatao Ando. So the first Salati building was built on our campus, because everybody was scared to do these buildings of her. The first Tatao Ando building in Europe was on our campus. But these days, the architects weren't famous or whatever. They just had the right idea, the right concept, the right design for what was needed on campus. And with that, the camp was started. And meanwhile, we have smaller little houses, like buildings, like whatever is needed. With a museum from Fangierri, it was the first time where the Cultural Mission really became a statement and a building. And yeah, here we are now here in the campus. - Exactly. - That's what we were doing in 2012, the Vitra House. And with the Vitra House, something changed a lot. Until that day, we had around 100,000 visitors on campus, mainly because of the museum and because of the people we invited as Vitra to have a look who we are. And the Vitra House was the first building on the other side of the fence. So always open to public, 365, 10 hours a day. So you were always allowed to walk into their building and have a look at our furniture. And that was also the reason why we did this with Herzog Demirol, because they always managed to attract people who might not have an interest and a certain kind of thing to come and have a look like the Olympic Stadium in Beijing. Even if you don't like sport, you go there. Even like the Elp Philomony in Hamburg. If you don't like music, you go there because of that extraordinary piece of architecture. And that's what we have done with the Vitra House. Since that, we have around 400,000 people visit us every year on campus. So it's our home. It's our playground where people belong to us can explore the values of our brand, the values of the culture behind because we also have the educational task to fulfill. And when Nora took over, our current CEO for her was clear that the next mission for us, it's the environmental mission. And this is ongoing, changing with materials, with product design, how we deal with rubbish, how we deal with the plastic that we're not using, virgin plastic anymore that we're using re-plastic. So with that one, it took more than two minutes now to describe the country. But at the end, we have three missions, the commercial one, which started with founders, the cultural, with both the second generation and the environmental mission with the current situation. I would-- For the people listening to us and for our team here, I would advise, for the ones that don't know to search about the campus, because it's very-- for me, it's very hard to explain, because people-- but did you go to their factories? It said, yeah, also, but it's the biggest concentration I know of architecture of high quality architecture in one property. And it has been a dream for us one day of a campus, because that perception of-- I was just there with you, I don't know, three weeks ago, or something like that. And it doesn't matter how many times I've been there, now maybe seven, eight times. And it's never enough. You always want to go back, because it's such, such a special place. Even for me, even if I'm there like once a week or twice a week, because my workstation isn't be as failing in Boston or my headquarters, but I still feel special to go on campus, even after 15 years now with Vitra, it's still that kind of special emotion to work on campus. And to understand, I'm part of that one. It is very special. And in a way, it's walking the talk, in the sense that Vitra always opened the door for the community and had that huge cultural influence with the work that was done there, is being done there. I remember, every time I go there, there's some construction going on. Now it was refurbishment, but I was there with Marta when the Santa building was being built. We were there in different moments when different buildings were being built. And there's definitely a reason to go to Basel. There's a couple more reasons to go to Basel. Thank you. Even knowing that the campus is not on Basel. It's in Valderheim, but it's a bus ride to-- Even the tram goes there. So it's all easy from-- You can go from Switzerland to Germany without border control. That's a little bit of border control, but almost nothing. Now, our relationship with Vitra is, as always, being a relationship of also, Vitra has helped us understand design. It has been a way, an illustrative way of understanding why good design is good. And that was, I think, our first team of our season. And then last year was about crafts. And then Vitra is again there. And this year's team is good things take time, which then relates again to Vitra. Now, you travel around the world to represent Vitra and to talk about Vitra and talk with people that sell Vitra. I'm a designer, so for me it's easy. But how is it for people to understand? How hard is it to explain this timelessness, this quality, this craftness, the importance of the design? I have the impression it's get a little bit easier, meanwhile, because the new generation is understanding that the most sustainable thing is the longevity of a product. And longevity of a product starts with the design. So this is the beginning of to keep a product longer than only for two years, even keep it for generations. So it's getting easier. But maybe it's also because we talked about it the last 50 or 70 years or whatever. We always try to educate the people about how important design is. And if you go into competition these days with our competitors, of course, it's the price, which is also decision-maker in some project. And then it's tough to explain. But as long as it comes to design because of longevity and not just the useless design with somebody is also sometimes doing, then they understand it. But you need to keep talking and talking and talking about it. And it's not just the design, but as said that the beginning, the design is the beginning of the product. And as clear and understandable that design is the longer the product lifts, but it's also the material. It's also the way you manufacture the product. It's also what kind of things you are using. Is it crude or is it welded or is it just put together that you can repair it? These are all the things which paste into design these days. Again, it's about how long does a product lift? And if you don't like it anymore, is there a second cycle? Is there a second market to do that? When we started using this sentence, good things take time to, as a title of this next season, there's multiple ways of listening to this sentence. One is saying it will take time to make something. But sometimes it takes time to perceive the quality of the design. So for us today, Alvar Altor, Eams, it's a given. But probably they were not, I imagine, they were not as successful or as famous back in those days. Maybe people respected them already as professionals. But we tend to go back a lot and talk about those people that designed these furniture that Vitra represent many years ago. But you keep doing design. You mentioned Pantone, which is not resumed. But you have been working with contemporaries as well. If you see the design of Panta Toro, for example, I think they have that kind of habit like the designers in the '50s. Let's do some observation. Let's see where is the gap on the people's behavior, what is needed in there. For them, it's not just about creating another sofa, creating another chair. They want to fill the gap because of what they recognize, what is missing. And I think this is the way we are looking for designers. We try to find these designers. Again, it's not about another chair, because if we are honest, there are enough chairs on the market. But it's about closing the gap because there is something missing. And this is what Panta Toro had done with the Anagram sofa, for example. This is what Stefan Hirleman had done with the dancing wall, for example. Or also what Baba Oscar B, 10, 12 years ago, had done with the Tipton chair, a very simple, easy chair. But there was a gap. There was something missing. And they created that one. So also contemporary designer are taking care of these needs and what's missing at the moment. The perception of the end consumer is that Viter is a furniture brand. But you are much more than that. You are here today at Slash Repo Collective with your team, because we are collaborating on designing the expansion of our office. And one of the things that you are constantly working on is about how people work. How is the office evolving? What is happening? And that is-- it comes from where? It comes from your own development as your own office. And we have seen your office and how you constantly are testing. It comes from the market. It comes from-- why are you-- You as a company show interested in the YPP. work. That's the best question, Johnny, no. I can talk now. At the end with the office, it started in 1993. We had an exhibition, was called Citizen Office, created by three architects, Eto Rosotta, Michaela Diluki, Andrea DiBranzi, together with Jorge Baume, and they had a 1993 that idea, how does the office in the future look like? But they understood that we will never understand future. We can learn from history, we might understand the present, but to understand the future, it's quite complicated, because we don't know what happens tomorrow. But what we discovered is that we are all mature citizens, or like mature citizens, if we come to the office. So they created an office which looked a little bit like the city, with different kind of sports, with different kind of places, depending on the needs, depending on the duty you have to do at that moment. And being a mature citizen, you can decide yourself where you want to work, what you're going to do. So that was in 1993. So it's for us not fashion to talk about the future of work, or the future of office. At the end, we can't, as I said before, we can't tell you what happens tomorrow. So why should we tell you what happens tomorrow in your office? But we can evolve the office, we can create spaces which are flexible, agile enough. And this is what, this is what they've three architects, together with Wall-Faibomb, started in that exhibition at the Museum in 1993. And we also should never forget that space is a strategic asset. Space has an impact on how we behave, and the behavior of people working with us has an impact on the success, or non-success of a company. So if we believe that space shapes or has an impact on how we behave, we need to handle and treat space differently, and not just as a placeholder for a desk and a chair and a cupboard or whatever, so it's way more. And on top of that, it's also your identity, your culture of a company. So it can't be one size fits all office. It's an individual thing how we create offices because of what your needs are, what your client needs are, and what are your values and what is your culture. And this need to become visible if we create offices and spaces. A little bit of provocation. How did you feel when Covid said that there's no more offices? It was a nightmare. I never believed it. I mean, at least most of the people are social people, are social humans. And if you sit in front of your computer the whole day and do a team's call or a Zoom course or whatever, like 10 in a row, there is something missing. I mean, we started these days, let's have a cup of coffee together, an online cup of coffee. We did like wine tasting in the evening online. I mean, who's doing this? Nobody anymore. So there is a clear evidence that humans are social species who need to in at least most of them, who need to interact with us. And this is then what office changed. Office should not be that only single offices where somebody walks into an office creating another excel sheet or working on a PowerPoint. It's about sharing ideas, sharing your work, one operation, making your work visible, or what I heard today from your team, that little windows into the work of the others, of the other team. I think this is important what office need to provide. And I think this is what Covid. It was a provocation because we almost broke some rules to come to the office very fast after lockdown, because I think we broke. Well, I can't assume it publicly. I can't. But we, I remember Marta, my boss was saying there's no way I'm going to work online with my team. We're going to find a way of doing it in person. And we came back to the office when we needed to lock the door of the office and people, but we came because I can't understand the concept. I, I, I can talk about myself. Maybe I can talk about other people, but I, I don't have the same. I travel a lot and I do a lot of teams cause with my team. It's not the same. Then when I'm here in the office and, and I'm working with, with them. And ultimately, there's also another component that we talk a lot here at slash, which is work is part of life. It's not an extra thing that we do. We spend the best hours of our day here. We spend the best years of our life here. And, and not doing it in a way that contributes for us to develop as, as humans. It's a little bit. That was about to say another word, but ridiculous. So it's kind of why would we waste this time, not, not enjoying it, it, more. Now, question for you, you came to our office twice. This is not the typical office. At least I don't think it's a typical office, globally not, and also not for Abu Dhabi or for the region. I was fascinated about it. I mean, what you provide, what you do, it's like, it's like the nursery, the pantry, the food, the drinks, the people, the atmosphere, the power, the energy, the togetherness. When I walked in for the first time, I was like, this is not normal. This is the most positive thing I have seen in the office in the last years to be very honest, because it's your culture and you feel it if you walk in. And this is impressive. It has been a journey super interesting and I think I would love one day to even with VITRA in general, I have this conversation. I remember traveling with Nunu Paver, head of strategy to IDEO in Palo Alto and having these conversations about how people interact and how they work together. And I have this, I also committed the scene of thinking that culture and work culture is something you can force. So you put a lot of chocolates in the pantry, give free beer to people, give a lot of freebies, everybody will be loyal to you to rest of your life. And no, it doesn't happen. Because those chocolates, those things pass away and people in the end are loyal to much deeper things than those superficial things. And we went through the cycle of doing the mistake of thinking that we can buy culture. You know, we, you can force culture into people and say, this is, but then we realized that culture above all, at least for us, and I'm only talking about us, is something that you leave. Is something that it's in the air, that you experience. Our culture, I found out later, is not for all. So we, I thought that everybody wanted the same that I want. And then I found out early that no, but for the ones that work work. And we believe we found, we found our frequency, I would say. I think we found a place where we feel comfortable being ourselves. And I love to come to the office. I love love to come to the office. And I like to be here and I like to work here. I know that furniture and design and objects play a very important role in, in me liking to come. Because if I would have the same team in a really ugly place, I think it would be slightly different. It would be different. Yeah. You just came from a Asia tour. You literally traveled the whole world for how different these people working around the world. It is coming back what you said about how you work and the culture and the team. And this is this is you. Exactly. It can't be copied. You need to create your identity, your culture, and then it works. I compare working together a little bit with like being a fan of a soccer of a football team. It's about identity. It's about that. I want to belong to that one. I want to be part of that one. And I think the real usp in the future are the humans. Because as you said, the product can be produced cheaper and faster somewhere on the globe. So it's about what the humans are doing together in the company and about that identity. And this need to become visible if we if we talk about how we work together and how an office looks like. And this is all over the world in my understanding the same. Even if offices look different. But if people come together with the same passion, with the same belief, with that kind of sharing that identity a little bit about what we are talking about and the culture and the values, then it will work. And that doesn't matter where you are on the globe. Of course we have in Japan a different kind of set of hierarchy. In Seoul it depends on or in Korea depends. You are only allowed to sit there on the table or there on the table. This is clear. We need to also stick to these rules. But to create something together, it's about my strong belief, it's about the values, it's about the culture, it's about sharing these values together and identify yourself with it. And coming back also one little thing about what I learned about COVID, if people coming to the office, it's not a COVID or not COVID, it's about the culture of your company and we need to understand that one for a lot of people it was a long time and excuse not to go there but then company need to think about why don't they come back and it's not about the freebies it's not about the chocolate or coffee again it's about do we share the same values do we share the same cultural points about that yeah I don't I don't read the news and I don't have social media so I don't people tell me second hand about how it's shifting again apparently a lot of people that were still working remotely are kind of being called and forced forced back but for me I would be very sad and frustrated if my team didn't want to come back to the office it was not an option so just to be clear we didn't give that as an option but I would be very sad I would feel as a business owner and leader that I would have done something really wrong if my team didn't want to come back to the office it was the same with my team after three months we were allowed legally to come back to the office if we had a reason so my whole team was asking every day for a reason to go to the office so it was really like that other teams were not there other teams haven't been in the office still struggling coming back to the office these days but with my team they were really looking for that reason to be at least three or four days a week in the office and we managed to be there so on that kind of half legal side so talking about the office and people being in a office that was designed to take the best out of them personally and professionally when we go to your office to Vita's office even knowing that the layout that you just show me again three weeks ago it's pretty much the same for the last 10-15 years there's still a lot of innovation happening there that you know the floor is raised and the infrastructure is all underneath or the way that you designed to have different places for people to work with different moods the meeting rooms the fact which is for me I told this to Johnny the other than Johnny's Johnny official I'm going to put you for people listening about his criticism of not not having access to the sea and I use so we had this conversation because I was explaining to him that in your office in that office that specific office you moved everyone away from the windows because the windows is for everyone yep so the windows is not for the boss is for everyone to enjoy so you clearly make circulation on the windows so that everybody has access and then everybody's in the center yep so that tends and then Johnny's immediate reaction was I wish to see was like that that we all had access to the sea and we didn't so I'm giving notes maybe someone is listening Johnny but I remember every time I go there little details little things that trigger even ideas that eventually we had when we we designed with this unoffice now I want to go back because of that to two projects you mentioned because most people associate with chairs you mentioned to projects that I'm huge huge fun one of them is I'm so much fun that I just got which is the anagram so far and I'm extremely complicated on choosing sofas for me comfort comes before aesthetics in in a sofa which is a problem in certain houses because people wanted to look good and then and we we got the anagram and what one of the reasons why we got the anagram was because it was the first sofa so for the people that don't know anagram is a modular so far not only modular in putting several pieces together but everything the the back the back the accessories the tables it's the end it's a kid of parts it's a kid of parts you can build your own sofa without tools without tools literally though that table is the most amazing adventure because I like to have dinner in the sofa and I can change yeah where where I go the tail but you you mentioned about how to bring these new ideas and the fact that you have this it's not the Eames only you have these young people how how how does a project like that starts one day someone at Vita says we want to design a sofa or is a designer that comes to Vita and says I have an idea that with these two it was kind of story that we asked him could you do an observation about how will we live in like 20 30 years so we always work with designers or with futuristic guys about what is the future again I believe we do not understand the future but we should have a look a little bit what the other thing and they came back with these kind of flexibility because if you buy a sofa now in your house in your flat in where you live at the moment without kids then you move together with kids then you find a new house you find a new place and you always need a new sofa which doesn't make sense if you come back to sustainability again and and Alexian Stefano are very driven from from sustainability as well so there's a we need to create a flexible sofa with this changing depending on our needs depending how we live depending how we are changing and that was then such a cool idea that we decided let's create that sofa together and this is how our program started and the beginning was clear that we don't want to have like that stiff clean looking sofa like you can put also in the office even if the sofa would be perfectly for lobby or whatever because of that flexibility no we want to create that what you just described a very comfortable one where you just sit in and you you sink in and you are more or less gone for a lot of people they struggle to get off if you're getting older not flexible and enough enough anymore but this is exactly what we want to do great with these guys and that happens and it definitely happened I I I hate buying sofas not that we buy a lot of sofas during life because it's not something you buy every year but when you buy a sofa what really annoys me is that it's a commitment it yeah you are making choices and then you know I'm going to keep this sofa for a long time and it's a commitment or it's a thing you decide for the current situation and you have no idea what's in two years or three years time right so now you you have as explained you have that new flat you buy a sofa but then you move and one of a sudden the kind of longer side need to be left or right but you ordered it on the left side so you need to throw it away sell it or try to find a new sofa just because of that and do you even more because people here change house very often and it's always a problem how to deal that and that modular it's really well designed and it's it's really comfortable and it's an example but the other example that you mention we want to have it maybe now in the expression of the office and you were very generous so let me give one step back to then give two forward so one of the things that we mention in the beginning that we have in common is this idea of connecting people so every time you come to visit me I introduce you to people every time I go to visit you you introduce me to people and last time you introduce me to Stefan and Stefan is is the designer of the Dancing Walls which is a great name and then when meeting Stefan we understand better why it's called the and the Dancing Walls is anagrama for walls it's it's this modular super adaptable flexible element that pretty much you can use for anything in the office planters for plants a shelves a board to write a TV stands the same piece yeah and he's also very focused on sustainability himself himself how could it comes like that comes again you are a chairs company yeah proceed and then you are designing Dancing Walls yeah we started like in the 80s we also desk in and stuff like this so we always had that office in mind to create an holistic space but dancing wall was out of a project the client Stefan was working with the client together and the clients that look I need an office for the for 60 people we need spaces and and yeah create me that office today is later the client came we might have 80 people in two weeks time so we need to have different size of spaces and we might do a different thing they coming from the consultant industry another week later the client came again I said it looks like that we're going to be 160 people in one year time so we need to change the walls again and several that look stop now I mean after two weeks we have now three different sizes you have no clue what you're going to do tomorrow or what you're going to do in six months with your company what you what you're going to produce or what you work on so we need a complete flexible situation in the office and if you build balls a build ball is all but flexible and one of a sudden Stefan realized that this is a case for most of the companies because how many companies do know exactly what they will do in six months time or in 12 months or how many people they work or they have working for them So one of a sudden, he said, "Look, we need to create a wall, which we can create our space for the amount of people working on the project together by ourselves." So a wall where we can pin stuff on it, where we have a whiteboard, where we can put a screen on it, and that was the beginning of dancing wall. But the next step for Stefan was then to say, "It's not just dancing wall, it's a dancing office." So we want to give you back as a company, the freedom to create your office by yourself, depending on what you're going to do, what happens inside the office. So he created the dance floor office, the dancing office. So that was the whole idea of that product. It started in 2016. We met each other, we became friends, we met each other during Salon and Immobile. And every year in Salon and Immobile, we celebrate because that was the beginning of dancing wall. It's an amazing product. It's 2018 now on the market. Still one of our best-selling products, because it's that kind of flexible, agile product, which I think a lot of company needs these days. And he's a really good designer. He's also a little bit my moral, if it comes to sustainability, what we can do, what we can't do, because they have a clear kind of idea about that one, about circularity, about the usage of material, about creating new products. So it's a complete mindset, what is behind the dancing wall, and that makes it special. And very relevant these days, very relevant. Now all these stories, and we only have one hour, so we can tell one or two stories, but all these stories require a little bit of time and someone to tell them. And I'm fortunate to know you and other people from Vietnam over the years, I had access to that information. But I'm very curious, how a brand with such depth in terms of the products and the narratives, and it's very important to know the narrative of Jean-Pauvet to buy a Jean-Pauvet chair. I would say it's almost impossible to buy a chair of Jean-Pauvet without knowing who Jean-Pauvet is. How do you deal with this superficiality of communication these days, the fact that people can only hold their attention for 30 seconds looking at something? Well, we're not doing TikToks, but that could be the next thing. With the dancing wall, it would be possible. No, I strongly believe in that one-to-one interaction, or that about talking about it, and this is what we have to do. So we need to make sure that we have the best people of the industry, that they go out and be our ambassador, that they be our ambassador about our story, about the things we are doing, that the people understand what is behind. As you said, if you are just posting a picture, it's tough to understand what are the thoughts of Eams, what are the thoughts of Ruby, or why is the dancing wall, the dancing wall. So we need to speak out, we need to see the people, we need to make sure that we have the chance to go to keynotes, to seize the clients, to get the one hour, to talk to the right people and explain that one. And this is what we have to do every single day. We are the ambassadors of our values, of our core, of the things we are doing every day, and it doesn't matter where we are. For that reason, it's not work-life balance, there's a book from an author from Vienna, it's called Work-Life Bullshit, and I think this is exactly how I see it, there's only one high co, there's not a private, and there's not a business one, that's only me, and I'm the ambassador of what we do every day, so this is what I expect from all the people that they talk about. It's easy for my team not to understand why we connect, so easy. Not a crazy audience. Or if I am, there's more, there's a whole group of crazy people around. We will kind of circle back to finish the way we started. So we are both seated here in my office, where we have been recording these chats with friends that come to the office, and you talk, you had no idea, we would record this. No, I had no idea, until just a few times ago, and ultimately, the reason why we start doing these talks, or this recording these talks, not because the talks we already did before. It was because the team was complaining that I never shared with my cool friends, and they're like, you never know what you guys are talking about, so that's why we started doing these talks. But we have, I think, our very recent relationship is reveals that, again, I'm not a crazy one, because there's more people thinking about a lot of these things the same way. And there is this, you talk about, you just talked about work-life balance, but there's, I don't think there's an expression to express that, but this idea of prioritizing relationships, even if professional, and some of them end up being personal also. It's not very favored by the management books, and by the MBAs, and I think they say exactly the opposite, you should not befriend with people that you do business with. But you know what happened in 2008? Everybody reacted according to what they learned in the different schools. So, the whole thing was crashing together after Lehman, everybody did exactly the same, but nobody was talking to each other. They're just reacting to the book, because there are numbers, there's a reaction, I need to sell, I need to do this, I need to do that. If we don't talk to each other, if we not put relationship first, there is something missing. This is, again, coming back, this is our human core. We are social species. If we only see relationship as an advantage for ourselves, or as a new business idea or making business, this is just wrong. It's not about that one. If the outcome, between the two of us, if the outcome is business, I'm happy you are happy. If it's not, I'm happy you are happy, because we are learning from each other, we can talk to each other, we can trust each other, and we create stories, because we talk, and that's it. And I can remember when I have been here for the first time, we were sitting over there, and five people were sitting where we are sitting now, and the two of us talked for one hour, and all other were just listening. We talked about cycling, we talked about, I don't know, sport, about furniture, about design, about cars, about these values, these passion we are having, and this is the highest value I have, the relationship. But that brings one of the values we have as a company to the table, which is also not in the management books, which is vulnerability, because at some point you are showing things that are maybe not right, or people might not like. But I've known you for just some months, but you are who you are, so the way you are at work, did it ever backfire? Of course it's some time backfires, of course people don't understand that this is me and I'm like this, but it never backfire so much that I burned my hand or whatever. It's like I'm convinced about that this is a right way to do, and it's also with leadership, I mean if you expect something from your people, you also need to give them something, and I think the core for me is always to listen, to have an ear, to have time for them, if they have an issue, to take it serious, what's going on, and this is what I need to give back. Of course it's sometimes exhausting if you hear the problems of your employees, but that's fine, because I'm here to listen to them and to make that. I think the most rewarding part of the last month has been that we have been able to share certain people in certain moments, that sounds a little bit weird, we share people. Remember that you flew specifically to Copenhagen, to come to our dinner, that's a little bit weird, that's fine. No, because of course there was three days of design, of course I was also able to make use of three days of design of our own showrooms and the people there, but I had not planned to be in Copenhagen. Then you invited me to that dinner and I said look, I need to go there, because there is something happening, which I want to participate, because there's value behind that one. And this is what you then have to invest, and I don't mean the flight to Copenhagen was not the big investment, the cost of the hotel is not the big investment, the time is the investment. But what I get, got back from that one, it's, yeah, you can't pay for it, so it was not just a dinner. It was, it was, it was, it was, it was. - No, you have the possibility by what you are doing and the things, but you create memories if you get people together. And I think this is what getting these groups together and sharing all of the ideas and the-- - Yeah, for the ones that don't know, we organized a repocullective dinner, slash dinner in Copenhagen during three days of design. It was, I think, one of the first seeds for the outposts. I wanted, for what now we call the ripple outposts and we're going to open the first one in Tokyo next month. It was a little bit of a test to see if my assumptions were correct, which is that the way we are doing things like this talk now, there's more people wanting to be part of that. Because in theory, the books say nobody will want to be part of that if there's nothing in return. But the thing is, and we heard it a couple of, I think this morning we talked about it, if AI and machines getting better and better and better and being AI and being a machine, we as humans need to get better in being a human. We will never be able to compete with AI if it comes to knowledge. We will never be able to compete with machines if it comes to efficiency and productivity. But we are able to connect, we are able to create network, we are able to understand connections, which is pretty tough for AI and machines to understand that one. And this is what we hear from. Because in that connection point, something happens. It's like in nature, if the sea hits land, this is the biggest diversity. This is the biggest thing where something happens. So if different things come together, there's always something happening. And this is what human can do. And we all like beach. And we all like, yeah, we all like to see in the beach, surely, when it comes together, it's pretty good. We're very happy to have you here. We still have you for more 24 hours. I'm really curious about the workshop and the outcome of the workshop. Because I'm pretty sure that your team never designed an office in a building as beautiful and as special as this one. I think they are still absorbing the fact that we are in such a special place. We are very excited with this journey with you, specifically. But also because this represents that we might take our relationship as a company with VITRA to a next step and share the message of VITRA, this idea of timelessness and quality in design that we would like to take. Thank you for coming, Haiko. Thank you for having me. It's very pleasure, honor, and thanks for meeting the whole team. Talking again with you. And I think it's just the beginning. It's just the beginning. Thank you. Thank you.