#8 Reimagining Learning and Development with Pascaline Hazart from Accor - Unlocking Potential

Introduction If you use innovation for innovation, just because you want to have a kind of buzz on LinkedIn, then it's gimmick, right? Then it becomes makeup. And I think it's not valuable and we're going to lose our credibility as LND experts. We don't want to create robots again, so there's also this human factor that we absolutely want. It's not just that we want to respect it, we need it. We want it to grow. It's not so much innovation and adapting to change, it's steering the change. Speaker 2 Welcome to Unlocking Potential, the Key to Advance podcast. I'm Mona, and in each episode, we explore growth, leadership, and emerging trends with voices from our own community and global network. One conversation, one thought leader at a time. Hello and welcome everyone. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with someone who sits right at the heart of one of the world's most ambitious learning ecosystems. My guest is Pascaline Azar, Global Vice President, Learning and Development at a car, leading learning for more than 300,000 artists which are the talents at Akash across 5600 hotels and over 100 countries. For more than 40 years, Akash Academy has been a pioneer in hospitality learning and development, and what Pascaline and her team are doing today with immersive technology, gamification and digital innovation is attracting global attention. In the conversation we've had, what I personally find inspiring about you, Pascalin, is not just the scale that you're operating in, but the philosophy behind your work. Because I find that you ask yourself, how do we use innovation to in fact enhance learning rather than replace it? Also, you ask yourself, how do we stay rooted in culture, emotion, and connection, which is really at the heart of hospitality, even when we experiment with artificial intelligence, virtual reality, and new learning formats. So today we're going to go deeper into the future of learning, the boundaries of digital tools, the neuroscience of human interaction, and what remains timeless in how people grow. Pasqueline Bienvenu. It's wonderful. Speaker 1 To have you here. Hello Mona. It's wonderful to be here. Thanks for having me and what a nice agenda you have for today. Speaker 2 Well, it's our common agenda. Innovation in L&D So I'll start with my first question, which is you oversee learning for an incredibly diverse global workforce. So when you think about innovation in learning and development beyond honesty, just technology, what does that actually mean to you? So basically what comes to your mind when you look at L&D today compared to a few years ago? Speaker 1 Great question. Nice way to kick it off because yeah, innovation is such a buzzword. What I would say is that, well, the the first big thing that comes to my mind when we talk about innovation in learning is first the the content design. I think due to the fact that the expectations of the learners changed dramatically over the past years. Also the way we design our contents and then the way we deliver our contents has absolutely significantly evolved and that's where the innovation exists first, I would say. So to be concrete, when I talk about this innovation in content design, I think the need that the learners had is to go from something which was very top down, something a little bit like knowledge transfer. We were really trying to push knowledge within their heads and behaviours to something which is much more engaging, much more learner centric, in a way, experiential. And that was made possible thanks to obviously technologies, but not only so technologies and tools. So what changed? Obviously we digitalized a lot. So that started before COVID and then the pandemic left us with no choice. So digitalization was was there. Then I think we went from digitalization to more gamification. So we tried in the past years, and that's maybe a little bit more recent to gamify everything, to make everything more playful, to be more engaging, to be more interactive, to treat learners as players, to make it, you know, more fun. And and then there's AI which is now today not, I mean it just did not start just yesterday, but it's really the big thing at the moment, of course, and that's another level. But AI generated content is also impacted learning. Obviously we have many ways now to create, to prompt some training designs and that's obviously a reality. So I think that's good because it's all serving, as I said, one goal, one real need or even a pain point, which was learning was sometimes considered as something you have to go through, you need to do like you need to attend. It's you know, it's end of year compliance trainings. Have you completed your GDP or you know, in, in, in big companies, it's the deadline, right? So everyone has to end, I think all those learning innovations, they are here to make it more engaging again and hopefully make this experience better. So that that's one. And as I said it, it started with content design, but then there's there's an impact as well on the delivery methods, like the way we deliver those trainings. And if I look at the core Academy, you very well introduced it earlier, by the way, explaining that it was born 40 years ago. So just a little bit of story here. When the Accor Academy was built 40 years ago, it was a building, indeed. It was a place somewhere where people from all over France and Europe were invited to come to attend one week classroom training. So you came, you spent time, right? One week you spent money because you had to travel to stay in the Accor Academy hotel. Obviously it was great because it was such an experience, right? Very immersive and lots of interactions meeting new people. So that's part is still very, you know, I'm, I'm meeting with colleagues at Accor who've been through this experience and they really do remember that that's that's a good thing. But on the other side, that was quite heavy, right? And the reality is, I don't know if you're familiar with with Accor history, but Accor has transformed into an asset light model and so has the Accor Academy. So that means that today we do not have any more this one place, this Accor Academy building in every France. Now it's incorporated within the headquarters in Paris, in EC de Molino. But more importantly, the message is not anymore that you need to come to a training. Now the innovation I would say is that we come to you. So it's rather the Accor Academy who comes to the learners, right? Adapting to their own schedules, to their own budget realities to be more affordable, accessible, right? So we rather adapt to your reality. And how do we do that? We do that thanks to learning management systems like digitalization, e-learning modules, virtual classrooms, So remote ways, that's one. And we also do it thanks to a network of trainers who are located a little bit everywhere. And I'm not just talking about France now, I'm talking about how international Accor has grown. You mentioned it earlier, we operate in more than 100 countries. So you have also Accor academies now in the different regions of the world. And in each region you have a network of trainers, sometimes externalized, sometimes it's freelancers. So there's also a strong impact in the way we are organized, right as an LND function because we now also work with this asset light model. And that's what I wanted to to say going back to your question right now innovation is about content design, but also the way we deliver the trainings. So digital face to face going to the that's also an innovation even even though that's not a tech per SE. And then it's also impacts the way we are organized as an LNG function within the organization. Speaker 2 OK. So I'm hearing quite a few shifts, right. So it's from that long travel heavy centralized classroom weeks that are part of the history. But given the growth of a company are just not sustainable and also definitely not in the asset light model to kind of shorter blended like learning Nuggets, right. So it's like bringing the training to the people. And then I'm also hearing that it's not only everything happens centrally, but that you're also have partners or that you have little academies or satellites basically right across the world. Measuring Impact in Learning And I'm wondering like, how do you actually measure impact? Because that's something we talked about last time. That also shift you see is how impact used to be measured. Could you give a a quick insight into this piece? Speaker 1 I love this question. It's one of the things that I I find extremely interesting when you consider learning and development. Much of the times learning and development is considered an HR topic, which is good because it's about people. It's about people development skills, growth, mobility, internal mobilities within the organization. So that makes total sense. Get me wrong. But at the same time, we serve business purpose. We are and everyone within every single company will tell you Char needs to be a business partner. That's very common thing. But what's a little bit less common is to take it extremely concretely and consider, OK, if you want to be taken seriously, if you want to be credible as as a business partner, you also need to use the same KPIs as your business partners, right? And that's in my opinion another shift. So to to answer your, your question, the way we measure the impact in my opinion should not be only measuring your usual HRKPIS like how many persons did we train, how many hours of trainings, how many virtual sessions, how many face to face sessions. It should rather be OK, what was the impact of this training action to the business? So we are using exactly the same KPIs as the ones that are used within the business. If I take a very concrete example, when I'm training hotels on service quality, then the KPII am going to measure is the RPS or it's the guest satisfaction score. So I'm not using my usual HR or training KPIs. I'm speaking the same language as my partners right in the, in the hotels and I'm trying to really prove that training is not a cost, it's an investment because it will help you improve this kind of quality KPIs that those business owners are interested into. That's for me is a, is a big shift. It doesn't prevent you from calculating the number of hours and so on. We, we might still need those, right? But on top of that, I believe that's the only way to be sit at the table of, you know, strategic leaders. It's to make sure and improve that you're supporting those kind of business needs. Speaker 2 Basically that's a big responsibility because if I mean we're also in the space of learning and development as you know, through coaching and training etcetera. And we always say, you know, we as trainers and the training organization, we can give our best, same as you. You know, you're the in house kind of training organization, coaching organization and then you don't know how it's going to land right with the people. So all you can do is is give it your best and then measuring that an impact that places a big responsibility in L&D. So any L&D partner I speak to, that's why measuring impact is so important, but also how do I deliver impactful training right now? That takes me to my next question, which is innovation is great and we all love it, but it also has a shadow side, right? The Role of Technology in Hospitality So when we end up relying on technology maybe for the wrong problems. So in your view, which problems should technology and especially AI never be asked to solve in hospitality and in learning? Speaker 1 As you said, I work in a hospitality business and when you work in hospitality business, but I, I would, I would say the same if I were working still in return. People, people are at the heart of what we do. That's why we call ourselves artists. As you mentioned, why artists? Because we do things with the heart and then we are artists in the way that we master the know how right to the job expertise. So we do things with hearts and this might be the essential thing that's makes us unique, that's makes us strong, that's makes our experiences, guest journeys in my relationship unique, right? Because it's done with the heart. So in my opinion, biggest mistake that we could take today, and there's a risk that's true, would be to over automate some tasks, especially when it touches the human connection, the human behaviors, the personalization, you know, So using AI to leverage what we have to be more maybe efficient to understand better our guests, their expectations, their consumption, their, I don't know what usage, their food waste. I mean, understanding better what's at stake and making sure that we use AI as a, a kind of augmented personal assistance, someone who's going to help you do do things better, quit quicker, smarter. That's great. But we should, I believe, be cautious to leave it there as your augmented personal assistance for sure maximizing what you can do, but never completely replacing the human connection. I'd like to give you one concrete example on that, which I find to be perfectly honest, I, I feel I've been repeating that to my Aqua colleagues all along the year because that was 2025 priority. So if ever some of my team members or colleagues are listening, they will, they will be laughing. I guess this year I, I, I spent some time explaining that the big priority of the Aqua Academy is to help support the hotels in quality, service quality, because that's one big business need, right? And I want to make sure, as I said earlier, I'm supporting that. So in terms of service quality and really quality excellence, we have 3 pillars. It's like your golden triangle. It's about the standard operating procedures. So knowing your job, knowing your operating procedures and mastering them. It's about your brand standards. So really understanding your brand, what makes IB specific, what makes Mercure specific, what makes Novotel Pullman. So what's really are the standards of those brands? And then it's about artists. It's about making sure that on top of the procedures and the standards, we keep the human connection at the heart. Because if you listen to what I just said, if we only train employees on standards and procedures, we're going to create robots. So making sure that the last piece of my triangle is the hardest training. So hardest training. What are we talking about? We talk about three things, being curious, being authentic, being open minded. Curious, authentic, open minded are three human skills, right? It's about emotional intelligence. And these are the things that will prevent us from creating robots. So that's the concrete example on how in a very concrete way we are trying to make sure not to, to go too, too far in a way in using tools, maybe AI methods, using standards and procedures, you know, leaving aside the human connection, that would be the risk. Speaker 2 OK, So what I'm hearing you say in the image that I'm getting is it's like an augmented assistant. And I really love that term because now we're all starting to work more with AI and I'm like, oh wow, it really can be an incredible assistant. But what you're saying what it shouldn't become is not creating robots with scripted answers to actually real human situations, right? Balancing Technology and Humanity So in just getting like, how do you bring that philosophy into your learning strategy? For example, when you're training front office teams or hotel managers on how to use AI, how do you draw that line to say, use it as a tool, but don't outsource your humanity? You explained the triangle, but do you have maybe an example? And I remember you mentioning something around a hotel manager being able to use it to to measure certain things. So if you could give us like just a couple of concrete examples on that fine line to make it more even more visual and plastic, great. Speaker 1 Yes, absolutely. So as you mentioned, we train hotel employees on AI. So we'll start with that very concretely. What what, what's happening in the classroom when we train on AI? What happens is that first we start with reassurance, reassuring everyone on what AI is, what AI is, not what AI can do and what it can't do or want to do. So we start with really the basics of what it is machine learning that, you know, predictability generated AI. So we really like explain first and discuss what you know, what you don't know. So everyone's first reassured that they are not missing a train because that's one big fear, right? Because everyone's talking about AI so much. The first reaction you have is thinking, Oh my gosh, am I late? I don't dare anymore to ask the question in case I I'm already like old fashioned and they will see that. So we start with really just making sure everyone's at the same level of understanding what it is, what it's not. And then we go a bit more practical into, OK, what are the tools you're using? What are the tools that Accord is providing? So we have, for instance, an Accord GPT. So what is it? How can I use that? And so on. What are the concrete applications of AI in your daily job, right? And then either it's about understanding. How it can be used as your augmented personal assistant, As I said, so reassuring. Also the people side, you know, saying it's not going to replace you. It's going to help you support you in being maybe a little bit more, I don't know, efficient or saving some time in analysing Excel sheets or writing long emails or, you know, so that you really see that as a help, as a support on your daily tasks. That's one. And then more on the business side of things, understanding how great of an impact AI can have on your understanding your guests and their behaviors. So concretely, the examples that I was mentioning earlier as a, as a front office employee, definitely the front desk employee, you are going to have the possibility to better understand what your guests are doing within your hotels, what they are going to consume, what they are going to order at the restaurant, at the bar, what kind of products they appreciate or not. And then with predictive AI, you are going to be able to maybe foresee what they're going to be interested in in the future. So this is great help because this is not time that we that we have really when you work as a front desk agent, you just do your checking checkouts and sometimes you don't have time to do this data analysis. So the first thing is concrete example. So we train them on how to make the best use of that, how to understand it, how to really apply it on the job and then be able again, to turn that in your conversations with the guests to really have this human connection and show you care based on that. That's when I have on the guests. That's one example. The other one I have was more in the room now in the bathroom to be specific. It's also understanding water consumption. So how much water would you use when you shower, for instance? And then trying to measure it and understand how we could maybe advice or share some, yeah, some, some pieces of advice on how to reduce actually water consumption. And the good thing is with all those examples, when you discuss it with the hotel employees, they understand that AI is going to support them on their own time management. So you're augmented personal assistant, but that it's also going to have a very positive impact on your sustainability practices. For instance, because the examples I, I just gave you on food waste or water consumption, right, it has a direct impact on your sustainability strategy. So the good thing is, and that's what we try to achieve after one day of training on AI, is that at the end, they are reassured because they understand they did not miss the big train right of the TGV. And also they have a more positive understanding of AI. Oh, that's great because that's going to make us more sustainable. That's going to help us understand better our guests. And then when I'm in face of them, I have better things to tell them, more personalized and I can make my own connection with them even stronger. So at the end they might smile a bit more than before they entered the classroom, which is what we try to achieve, right? Speaker 2 Pascalin, I think even just now in those few minutes where you're explaining, I'm starting to realize that, yes. So I can really sense the positivity that you are bringing through Funny because yesterday with with my team, we have like a content team and we're now developing and looking into 2026 and I'm going to be certifying and like to become an AI manager etcetera. Because I'm like, if we want to be talking about this, I need to upskill also. And we had this really interesting conversation around what's the human relationship to AI. And it's interesting because it's almost like there is a bit of a shame sensitivity, like, oh, is AI now going to replace something that is so central to who I am? And I think a big part of the workshop we're developing is exactly what you said. So I'm happy to hear that is to say no, doesn't it's supposed to enable you to be more precise, to be able to focus more on your humanness? It's almost like, you know, in the hospitality, a cook who used to do everything by hand and now has this fancy machine. They still have to taste it. They still have to think about what they want to do, but they can be, they can do better things and more offer more fancy F&B offerings to their, their customers. So yeah, thank you for offering these. And when you were speaking, I'm glad you mentioned it. It's also, I know that our coop places a lot on sustainability and it's been a strategy for a while and you're continuing to do so. And that how AI is not only better at improving the service quality, but actually making an impact. The Power of Gamification in Learning OK, so actually basically like a few weeks ago, I reached out to you because there was one link or post on LinkedIn actually that really intrigued me. And it's the one where you had mentioned that there was this 360 page SOP. For anyone who doesn't know what that stands for, it's standard operating procedure PDF that was turned into a 3D3 dimensional gamified adventure and apparently the results were remarkable. So you had higher completion rates, stronger engagement, nearly 90% of learners gave 5 out of five satisfaction score. So from your perspective, where does immersive learning so formats like 3D environments, gamified experiences create the biggest value? Speaker 1 So I will start explaining a little bit how, I mean, why we took the decision to use gamification for this specific project. So yes, indeed, the group Accor has created standard operating procedures and it's quite heavy. It's quite heavy because it's a lot of instructions SOP. So standard operating procedures are detailed instructions by brands and then by job family. And it's so important and it's so useful, especially in a world where we hire more and more staff with no academic backgrounds, with no hotel experience. They, let's, let's imagine they, they don't know the basics of hospitality and of their jobs. SOP's are a kind of savior. It's going to save your own boarding, right? Because right from the start, you are given those instructions. And it's, I see it as something very powerful just just for that reason. And then obviously it's about brand compliance and based on those compliance elements, there are some audits. So it's quite a serious topic, right? It's something that is extremely important for the brands and for acquire as a group. And because it's heavy in terms of how many words, how many instructions, how many guidelines there are, and because it's so top down important. That's exactly the reason why I decided to use gamification. Because I thought if I arrive with my regular e-learning module where you just need to click on the right answer, or if I arrive with my PowerPoint classroom top down session, they're going to hate the topic. It's not just about me. They're going to hate the Aqua Academy. That's one, OK. But more importantly, they're not going to engage with the contents. So using gamification was a way to make it fun, simple, right? To make it fun, to make it interactive, to make it playful. And my favorite message was the more you play, the more you learn, right? So we created indeed this immersive 3D experience that we, we created completely the hotel. So we create, we recreated Ibis, IB styles, Ibis budget, Mercur, Novotel, Pullman. So that was very nice to do that. So we worked with 3D designers who really created those avatars. And you know, and then you have your little avatar who's going, going in the hotel and facing situations, meeting guests and having unexpected encounters and situations, right? And then it's a bit like the escape game, but digital, digital escape game where you have one hour to give as many goods answers as possible. And if you succeed, then you enter a secret room which is full of surprises and plosies and music. And it's, it's, it's very, it's very nice, right? So, and if you don't meet the enough good answers, then you can start again. And believe me, learners do start again first because they want to get the certificate at the end, they want to have the round of applause, but also because they liked it, because they had fun. And that for me was really, really the probably the the biggest and the most positive achievement. So that that's the business case, right? That's exactly why we did it. And now if I'm trying to zoom out a little bit from that specific case, I would say that it worked because it was a little bit like surprising to use gamification for something that was so heavy important and top down. And I believe on other kind of compliance topics I could do the same, but there are many occasions where I would not because if the topic is different. So it really depends on the topic, It really depends on the situation, the audience and so on. Gamification is not the answer to all needs, right? But on certain cases, it's the best you can provide. Speaker 2 You know what that actually makes me like? Breathe through because it makes it like, OK, and that's that's why I wanted to have this conversation with you is to see where do we draw the line. So we drew the line between AI and the humanness, right? And now we're drawing the line also between virtual reality or immersive technology and experiences. And I'll get to, you know, the human side of this again. So I'm hearing that the gamification approach, the 3D is something that can be used quite well when you have an intense top down, non negotiable kind of brand standards on its detailed instructions, when you're turning it into something that people actually want to complete, even replay because it becomes a game. And you are right. I mean, I work a lot in hospitality for many years, as you know. And you know, obviously I travel personally and sometimes I don't end up in a brand and I can really feel the difference if I'm sitting in the service in the restaurant or the check in process or everything. And I go, there is such a value in having brand standards because that ensures the quality and the experience that guests have, as you said, Ibis, Macau raffles, Pullman, etcetera. And how do you ensure that a student or a part time worker or someone who may be, as you said, doesn't have a certain educational background, it actually embodies and lives it. I love that. And I think it again connects to those KPIs that you mentioned, right, the guest satisfaction. So how this gamification in the end is, is a way to increase your impacts there. Human Interaction in L&D So now, at the same time, you made you made an important point earlier where you said, you know, it does work beautifully in certain contexts, but it cannot be applied everywhere. So where do you see, let's say the limits of gamification and the immersive experience? Or maybe let's rephrase it and go, what types of learning still require human interaction role play coaching on the job. So if people who are, you know, coaches, trainers, L&D specialists all over the world listening to this podcast and they go, OK, well, where am I still needed? Where is? Where is the human in this loop? Do you have an answer for that? Speaker 1 Yes, because I already got the question from my teams actually because, you know, there was a tendency because our gamified solution here is successful. There was a request to do it for any single topic. So that's why I had to say no already and I know why. So I believe that face to face and this human coaching is needed each time. It's going to be about behavior change. You don't change a behavior digitally or just like clicking on the buttons, right? So there's a moment and for me that's really the moment. If you are in a change situation, if you are driving a transformation, if you are talking about yes, service behaviors, then first of all you need to practice, you need to coach, you need to observe. So coaching, observing are not things that I can do remote with a machine, right? And second of all, we don't want to create robots again. So there's also this space, this human space, this human factor, right, that we absolutely want. It's not just that we want to respect it, we need it. We want it to grow. So same as I said earlier, we train on standards and procedures, fine, but in the classroom we then make sure that the artists can make it their own, that they can make it alive, bring this to life with their own specific behaviors and who they are. So that would be terrible if we were only using this kind of tools again, for everything, especially in context of transformations, change management behavior. So I would say to give specific examples, all your compliance topics, your GDPR, your anti bribery and so on, those kind of standards, procedures, compliance topics, very fine to digitalize because it's easier to scale, right? It's scalable, it's more affordable, it's more measurable. So at least three good reasons to digitalize this kind of contents. And then you can make sure that in companies such as Accor where you have so many people to train, you've done the job in a couple of months. But when it comes to change management or behavior impacts, then you need to take the time in the classroom or at least virtual with a coach, with a facilitator to discuss it so that the human brain can catch, can digest, can reflect, can adapt, can make it their own and then provide something which is really authentic. Speaker 2 So what you're really saying resonates also what what we see in neuroscience and also in our own practice, right? It's to say when a human interacts with a human, practicing conversation, simulating a conflict, Co creating a road map, right, Much wider network of emotions and social brain systems are actually activated. So there are like brain scans to show if I'm interacting, just let's say, you know, with a tool or some kind of digital experience, there's only certain parts of my brain that are firing up. But when I'm actually sitting there and I'm role-playing and I'm practicing something human or talking about how a change is affecting me, then you have much deeper parts. And also the emotional center of the brain is completely fired up. So it's almost like if the goal is behavior change, language, mindset, then you keep a strong in person or life practice component. If the goal is more cognitive tools, procedures, checklists, then digital scalable like you said. Also affordable formats work very well. Is that a good reflection? Speaker 1 Yes, absolutely. Well said. Speaker 2 So that's maybe a take away for the for the listeners. Global Training Needs and Cultural Differences So we were zooming out earlier on and I also would like to zoom out to scale. So you're training artists, the name that you give talents working at Eco and thank you for explaining what that actually means. That's beautiful in 110 countries, 18 languages across a portfolio as you mentioned, from Ibis to Raffles. What has surprised you maybe the most about the different regions, how they respond to learning, whether it's digital, gamified, face to face? Do you notice like a a cultural difference? I'm just curious about that. Speaker 1 You know, it's interesting because I thought there would be more differences. I really arrived with, you know, I'm coming from Europe, France. I've been leading the Aqua Academy in Europe and North Africa for a few years, and then I started to work at global level and I arrived with a kind of a big doubt if what I experienced in Europe, North Africa, would be consistent with the needs and the realities in the other countries. I was expecting more differences. What I was surprised to see, maybe it's a good surprise, surprise is that when it comes to the contents, we have more or less the same needs because everywhere throughout the world we operate with hotels, client relations, operational procedures. And at the end of the day, we have the same kind of basic needs, onboarding, job skills, commercial performance, your sustainability trainings, compliance management feed. At the end of the day, when I really look at the needs, the expectations and then the contents of the big Global Aqua Academy, it's pretty much aligned. So that's the first thing I would say. And that's rather reassured me because then I said, OK, so then it's really makes a lot of sense that we work even closer together with the different regions because there we have so much in common and we can be so powerful and efficient if we work even more closely together. So that's one, the part where I would say we have the biggest differences is probably the training delivery, because you have some cultures where face to face might be a little bit considered as old fashioned and some cultures were face to face is the only way to go, the only way to learn. I've been a little bit caricatural here. It's a bit of a caricature. Of course, it's never that black and white, but I would say the biggest difference might be here. Now, if I'm perfectly honest, I think that it doesn't necessarily come from the fact. I mean, the brains are the same everywhere. We are all human beings. And what I said earlier I think still still is valid. So I believe that anyone, whatever the culture, when you are about to learn a human skill, again, when there's an impact on your behavior, what you're going to say, the gesture, the behavior you're going to have, I believe everyone would prefer to go face to face. Now the difference, and that's also easy to explain when you look at a course portfolio within the world, is that there are regions where they learned to adapt to digital maybe faster than the others. But that's more because of the size of the country. That's more because of the portfolio where you can't afford to have one trainer travelling from one place of the world to the other when you only have, I don't know, three hotels right then. So it's more for operational business reasons that some reasons got used to technologies, for instance, quicker than others. Then because of a difference in the human brains between one side and the other side of the world. So to give to give a specific example, the country where where we have the the biggest share of face to face trainings, classroom trainings is probably France. But that's also because in France, it's the country where you have the big majority of hotels. So obviously we organize face to face trainings because it's easier, easier to organize, it's less expensive. It's you see what I'm I'm trying to say? So yes, there's a difference globally, but going back to neuroscience and the way human brains learn, I think at the end of the day the difference is not that huge. Speaker 2 That's that's relieving and calming. And actually this year we had Kit Advance gifted everyone in the community, the book the Culture Map written by Aaron Meyer. And it's about trying to understand in this globalized international world and what are differences in communication feedback, etcetera. And this morning, funny enough, I was reading someone who reacted to one of her posts and said, yes, but if I'm from India or if I'm from the United States or somewhere in Africa, you know, I still feel the same, like I'm still a human, you know, here someone said, we're, we're six Indians and we just did a personality test and we all have very different personalities. So I think what she was acting too is to say yes, at the core, we are human and there are many things that, you know, still work across the world. And still, having said that, you also mentioned something interesting about leadership programs the last time we spoke where you said you design like global leadership journeys where they have like a common backbone with shared leadership principles, But then you give the regions enough freedom to adapt to their cultural reality. Adapting Leadership Programs to Cultural Realities For example, like in areas like feedback, like certain cultures give it direction direct I think is it indirect or communication coaching? So is that is that a good way of describing it? Speaker 1 Yes, absolutely. And thanks for mentioning that because that would be that would be a mistake because I because I said that we have the same kind of needs in terms of the content. It doesn't mean that we run exactly the same training courses in all the countries. So thanks for asking the question that will enable me to clarify these points. So we have global programs. Those global programs, they actually provide a framework, They provide core contents, they provide guidance on how to facilitate, but there's always room for local adaptation arrays. So there's a very strong ownership which is given to the regions, regional academies and your brands and so on, so that they can really take the content and make it their own. It's a little bit like what I said earlier about the individual, right? You have your guidelines, but then you also make it your own. You adapt it, you make it fit to your reality and to your needs. And I'm obviously not only talking about translation, even though translation is still a big part of the tasks we need to to do. Hopefully AI with help on that, but it's also really using your concrete local examples, adapting to that, making sure that you're also aligned with again, your business needs at the moment in one country, which might differ between France and Australia, for instance. So yes, definitely it's this kind of local approach that's also easy people to learning because. Speaker 2 It's funny that you're saying that because that's exactly what was going through my mind is to say, OK, you've got that shared backbone with regional creativity on top. And it reminds me of this like think global but act local. And I guess the word local is what you said. So it's yeah, it's to be true to the global strategy and still be like, yeah, let's accept that. You know, there's also a local culture where where this needs needs to work. Future Fit Leadership Skills for Tomorrow This takes me into the future. So actually the both of us have, Colleen met like 4-5 years ago when you were actually, I think a participant nominated as a high potential, which was fully understandable also seeing where you are today back then in another organization. And you were part of our first cohorts actually, which was called the Next Generation Leadership Academy, which of course, since then has also developed further. And it's funny because back then we thought, OK, what does A next generation leader need to have in terms of skills, etcetera. And so we have that backbone. But now with all these trends happening, there's a there's a new kind of term emerging, which is future fit leadership. So Pascalin, I'm warning you from now we will be getting from us some also we might be reaching out to ask you, OK, you know, what does this actually mean in the context of a com etcetera? Because this is interesting for us, right as a training company is we're hearing it everywhere, everywhere. It's this is the term, I think for 2026. So from where you sit in a group that's also constantly transforming, where do you see the core competencies And this podcast, many people, you know our leaders and we always say everybody's a leader, right? But we do have a leadership focus. Where are the core competencies that leaders will need in the next 10 years that maybe we're not as critical a few years ago. Hard question, but I know you. Speaker 1 Yes, because 10 years, this is ambitious. And when I look at how fast things are evolving, I'm not even sure I can predict what will be the case in 10 years. But I can. I'm not, I'm, I'm still going to answer your question. Of course. You know what I think it's, I was even reflecting what was it before? Just to see a little bit. If I see a curve, you say, if I see an evolution there. What I realized is that 10 years ago, so when I worked in retail, I, I remember that everyone was talking about innovation. We all had. And that's fun because when you change companies, you realize that every company, since they have like 3 core values which are so specific, but then you change companies and you realize it's the same 1. So it's basically big strong trends. But that's good because that's what's needed at the moment within the society, the bigger scale. So 10 years ago, I think innovation, creativity, singing out-of-the-box, we wanted its leaders to act as entrepreneurs. And you know, all the training courses were about taking risks and ownership, accountability. Don't be afraid, trust. See what I mean? So that was really the big thing and I think we all had that in our top three leadership values. Then we talked a lot about resilience. I think the that's obviously linked to the pandemic, but it's not only geographical situations and shifts and wars. And so I think over the past five years, we talked a lot about resilience and how leaders need to manage crises and create the safe space and psychological safety. And I remember you even had this. What was the name of this? That was brilliant, this fire. Can you help? Speaker 2 Me exactly fire index. Speaker 1 Exactly this fire index, that's exactly what was needed. That was really about how resilient am I and you know, so that's exactly what was needed, I believe at that time. And if I look at today, I think and that's, that's ambitious because we still need both, right? We still need leaders to be innovative and resilient. But on top of that, now looking at the future, we need them, I believe to lead transformations. That would be my first thought here, accompany and steer change. So it's not so much innovation and adapting to change, it's steering the change. That's probably because everything's changing so rapidly. So it's about the fact that things go quickly and also about the fact that we know so much. We know so much already. We have so much insights because of AI, because of the news, because, you know, so we are so fed. That's now what's expected of leaders is that they are able to analyze that data and from that data they are able to directly go to the next level, act upon that. So build their strategy and then share it with their teams, communicate about that to their teams, guide their teams about that. So not any more understanding and navigating. Now we used to say navigate change. Now I believe in in the next couple of years, it's going to be about steering that this is what we expect from every single leader in their department. Whatever department you lead, you're not passive and you're not just adapting and navigating. You need to lead this. And that's I believe is a different set of skills. I believe it's something different, right, because. Yeah, because you really need to to stretch also your your brains to make sure you have the right data, the benchmark, the knowledge and so on. And analysis, have a critical sense, critical analysis. And then, as I said, explain the strategy to your teams and reassure them in a way on on what's coming next. Speaker 2 I'm really putting myself into the shoes of a leader and going, wow, so much is expected. You know of me. It's because they also have to all this themselves too, right? So I need to work on my own resilience. I need to work on my own comfort with ambiguity tolerance, with managing change. So I think a lot of it is going to have to be self leadership too, is, you know, what's my relationship to all of this so that I can be the leader that is also needed by the people that I am leading or steering to use your word. And, and it's funny that you mentioned the executive fire index and it's nice that you actually remember it. I do seeing yeah, it was in the pandemic, the workshop that we gave the most. But I thought after the pandemic it will, it will stop being so important. But actually it's still trend is still there and it's more linked to, as you said, change restructuring, because what resilience means is your ability to bounce back, right? So this year we actually certified 10 people in order to be able to give trainings on resilience because we're seeing this as one of the skills. Communicating with Impact But if I hear this, you also hearing the steering, the accompanying the business acumen side of things, but you also mentioned to be able to communicate with impact, right? And yes, I guess like leaders, they don't just like like lead people or teams. They actually represent the brand in their city owners social media. Sometimes, like today, you're also a leader representing the company on a podcast. Why do you see communicating with impact as such an important skill? And, and maybe what what are the small elements of it? So if someone's listening and goes OK, So what? What does that mean for me to communicate with impact? Speaker 1 Yes, I think, I think this topic has become in my opinion bigger and bigger because a few years ago I think everyone in their training catalogs or offering had a course about public presentation, right, Speaking in public. We all had that, yes, with different names, but we all had that like impactful presentation or and it was about being in a classroom with a PowerPoint and clicking on slides and making it the most impactful possible, right? Having the right storytelling and having the right images, not too much text keynote style. So we're all very much influenced, I believe with the Apple keynotes and this kind of impactful speeches, right? So that was the big thing. And now what I believe is that that was just a little piece of it that we tackled. Now it's group bigger because it's not only about having impact when you present one story and when you're trying to convince someone of something. It's really about building your negotiation skills, your media presentation, becoming an ambassador, being able to share your strategy for your teams, for your peers, for your stakeholders, for your external clients. And at the end of the day, there are many, many channels, right? Channels can be being in a classroom and going through a slide deck like before, but it can also be in a virtual classroom. It can also be a networking event. It can also be a podcast like we are doing today. It can be interviews. It can be whatever. And as, from a certain level, when you work in big companies, as you said, you represent your company. The reason why I'm here today is because we have a good relationship, you and I, but also because I represent a core learning. And I'm, I'm aware of that. And that's why I, I take it seriously. I'm thinking, OK, so it's, it's important, right? It's not just escalating talking. And that's why I believe this kind of communication skills are important, but it's not something anyone was born with. You have good communicants because they have a nice way to, you know, talk and behave and OK, that's one very good, good for them. But there are many people who don't possess this kind of natural, let's say skills. And on top of that, it's never enough because it's also, as I said, understand the business being able to talk about the group strategy, being able to talk with completely different kind of audiences. And and yes, all of that is, is, I think skills that we need to equip our leaders with. Speaker 2 It's, it's funny when you were talking about this classroom PowerPoint slide, like you saw me laughing. It's because that's how I think that's the workshop I developed for hospitality 15 years ago and it became like workshop I gave the most. And then now if IA workshop work that we're being booked for and for another company, it's like a global roll out in a different sector. It's actually called Communicating with impact. And because it's, it's L&D telling us exactly what you're saying, they need to be better storytellers, not just in a presentation scale. So actually we're we're training people that are not sitting in boardrooms with fancy PowerPoints, you know, that are actually something very court to us as as a human is just talking one-on-one in a small group, internal stakeholder, external stakeholders. And and that question I was asking myself was in the age of AI, is this a skill we might also be be losing? So that's just a question. You don't have to answer it then. I'm just asking myself, how will I influence the next generation? Maybe not you and me, because we've trained this for decades, you know, to actually communicate. But those that are growing up now, how will that transform their ability to be convincing, to negotiate, to resolve conflicts? It's a trend that's coming up now, actually, and how there's a big conflict avoidance in the next generation. Anyway, that's a conversation you and me can have another time. Core Message for the Future of Learning But we're coming to the end. And we've, we've covered so much Pascaline from artificial intelligence, immersive 3D learning to seeing how general managers can also see how do I measure and analyse data when it comes to waste or, or water consumption. But also before we actually close, is there like 1 core message that you personally would like people to take away about just the future of learning and development? It's a big question and it doesn't have to be the perfect answer. But if you had a core message, what would it be the first? Speaker 1 Thing and I think it's based on the what you said just earlier right now when you said what about the next generation? How is it going to impact their own communication and probably relationship? I think that we have a responsibility today for the next generations to teach future generations on being critical. Critical in the sense of being bringing some nuance, bringing some a sense of, OK, there's a lot of data arriving. There are a lot of opinions, convictions. And there's this tendency of having a kind of a black and white world where you have strong opinions conflicting against each other. And I think in the classroom or in the virtual sessions when we train leaders, when we train employees, I think it's super important that we managed to find ways to teach also this human intelligence again, which is capable to be a little bit smarter than that, I believe. So we probably need to be a little bit ambitious in that sense that we don't only, you know, repeat what we heard and amplify some opinions that we are able to bring some news on the table and and try sometimes to keep on being curious, authentic and open minded, as I said. So that that's one thing as a kind of a collective responsibility I think we all have now. And when we were working in in learning or education as a whole, I wish it's something that's all of us we could join forces on because I think it's a it's really a big pitfall that generations could fall into. So I hope, I'm sure they would be smarter than that. That's something we might want to try and prevent on the more operational day-to-day. And going back to the beginning of our conversations, I think there's one insight that is, in my opinion, very important. We need to make sure that we find the right balance between the global frameworks, the corporate, the brands, compliance elements and the need for personalization. So that's really going back to the beginning. What kind of tools, what kind of methods, what kind of insights. I think it's super important to find the right balance and always ask ourselves how much of personalization do we bring into the training course? That's one. And as I also said earlier, I think as LND functions, always asking yourselves what's the best, what's the right technology, what's the right tool to use depending on the audience, depending on the on the need, right? Because if you use innovation for innovation, just because you want to have a kind of buzz on LinkedIn, then it's gimmick, right? Then it becomes makeup. And, and I think it's, it's not valuable and we're going to lose our credibility as LND experts. So making sure to erase again, use our brains to decide, OK, is this project really requiring gamification, AI tools, technologies? Or is it being in a classroom discussing, coaching, peer-to-peer learning, Those are still very valid methods, right? So making sure that we don't fall into the innovation for innovation trap. That would be the the other thing. And yeah, probably my last message because I work in hospitality is trying to make sure that all those new technologies and possibilities are supporting us to maximize the human factor and not, you know, again, go into some gimmick make up solutions. So really maximizing the human potential instead of replacing some of the some of those. Speaker 2 Yeah. So Pascal, if I it went from one message to four powerful messages, one being it's our job as L&E. Your critical thinking that we still encourage that and that's the the human part there. The second thing you said is that yes, there are global frameworks and standardization, but leave room for personalization, Yes. And the third thing said was don't have innovation for the sake of innovation. That's just make up and it will not do a service to L&D. The fourth thing that you said is also really beautiful is like, how do we capitalize on on the humanness, right? And to always remember not to lose that out of focus. So yes, I think to to wrap this up, and that's what's the topic also of today is consistently you're connecting innovation with humanity, right, and using technology to scale personalized measure. And still on the other hand, we protect, right? What is the deeply human part of learning? If you think about how children learn, how we grew up, it's also learning through play, through practice, through feedback. You know, it's like we constantly give feedback to children. What happens when we grow into adults, right? And also emotions. Remember, we want to fire up that brain. AI is a new technology. Who knows, in 203 hundred years, our brains might react the same way to an AI bot, then to a human. But so far the science is not showing that. So I just want to say I think everyone at a car is actually and beyond a car could be grateful that you're holding that balance because sometimes that's something that worries me when I'm speaking to other L&D. I'm so excited about what you said, innovation for innovation. So I love that you are being so true to saying no, let's keep that balance. And so, yeah, thank you for your time and your insights. I'm really looking forward to seeing what A Call Academy is going to create next. I'm always checking your, your, your posts. And thank you to everyone for listening. And I'm going to say, yeah, see you, listen to you next time. Thank you, Pascaline. Speaker 1 Thank you very much, Mona. Speaker 2 Thanks for listening to Unlocking Potential. If today's conversation sparked something in you, please share it with someone. And if you haven't already, follow the podcast. Until next time, keep growing, keep leading, and keep unlocking the best in yourself and others.