8 Reasons Why The Valkyries Bounced Back

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The last time I listened to your podcast, there was some football talk. Brandon Glashin got into some extended football metaphor. I felt at home. He did. My world was colliding. Well, Veronica Burton, who was huge in this game, I think she's got some football pedigree in her family with Steve Burton. So there's that. And her sister covers. Does she have to work for the NFL Network? I don't know. Yeah, she's at NBC. She's at NBC in Boston, I believe. This episode is presented by Walden University. Whether you're on the court or building your career, getting better takes work. That's why Walden University helps working professionals get the W with tempo learning so you can earn your degree at your own pace while gaining practical skills through real world scenarios. You'll also learn from faculty with real world experience and have support start to finish. Walden University. set a course for change ready to start visit waldenu.edu today certified to operate by chev tempo learning available in select programs so we're talking after game four in the last pod i i i talked endlessly about how i love a game for a wax poetic on game fours in a seven game series being the games that that basically tell you what a series is tell you how much metal a team has um if the golden state valkyries had a would have lost we would have been coronating the atlanta dream right now um instead they won the series is tied 2-2 both teams have beat each other on their home court now we go back to valhalla back to volcatruz and it's a three-game series essentially and the valkyries got home court advantage back um i thought that this was a fascinating game i think for the last two games both these teams play the same game so we're always going to say oh they're they're beating atlanta at their game or atlanta is beating golden state at their own game they play the possession game um and i think the last two games atlanta basically dictated in terms of engagement in this year in the series they're a bit bigger they're more physical they were more relentless on the offensive glass they were getting turnovers they were running angel reese um was punking them um and you started to really wonder oh my gosh like does this valkyries team like have another punch in them uh gabby williams is really going at them after the game you're seeing players on the bench just looking defeated like you just sort of had this feeling of like oh my gosh like did did angel reese did atlanta dream did they steal their souls uh but it turns out that the valkyries had a lot more metal uh they they punched back it's sort of the stories of this series it's sort of like who like can you absorb a blow and and give one back it is it does feel like a boxing match it felt like the series was headed in a disappointing direction after game three like you said it felt like they snatched their soul and and i feel like that was the question with golden state throughout the season especially on the offense event obviously it's like do they have another punch like do they have another gear they can go to i mean they the game's played in the 60s so you don't want to like you know overpraise them for their offense but they found something they found something that worked at like getting the right matchups getting to the right spots on the floor gabby williams like just that free throw line area of the court she was just cooking just raising up over smaller defenders uh getting matches with jordan canada getting matches with alicia gray i i think it was a step in the right direction i don't want it's always going to react to the series like right one game it's like you're never as bad as you look at that one game you're never as good as you look but i do think that natalie found some interesting leverage she can pull in this game and i i am interested to see how that will it's not going to be a series where elena imposes their will and it's just over they leaned on the valkyries and the valkyries pushed them back yeah today yeah exactly i think that's a great way to put it and like yeah you're right it's not exactly like we should be writing home about the offense for any uh game was under 70 points for both teams but that is sort of like that's the golden state way they want to play in the mud um they held atlanta to 62 points which is their lowest scoring total this season regular season or the playoffs their other lower scoring scoring totals also came against the golden state valkyries as well which i think is interesting um but it really is like it's it's it's about possessions and it's about being intentional with the offense that they got go through basically like the top eight or ten things that we think golden state did in order to to to to win this to win this and and flip the series uh do you want to start to try to start uh you can start okay um i'll start with natalie mccoskey uh i think one of the hardest things for a coach to do is to midway into a series go into a locker room and tell the players that you have style and tell them hey like we're going to change things up like walking to that locker room and changing the strategy that got you to the wnba finals and there were so many ways in which she did that so first of all she makes a change in the starting lineup uh kyla charles and tiffany hayes start in place of cheshy zandalasini and kayla thornton who in particular was really struggling in the starting lineup really struggling with guarding ryan howard really struggling with angel reese's physicality um in the starting lineup uh charles ends up being starting lineup high plus 14 she was really aggressive on the boards she just is one of those players that has a combination of like athleticism and quick reaction time and size and defensive versatility that i think really makes makes her the type of player that you know can do some of the things that kayla thornton wasn't able to do right um cheshy plays better off of the bench and then tiffany hayes just some of the biggest finishes consistently throughout the course of this game there's so many moments where it was like atlanta gets it within six gets it within seven and tiffany hayes comes in and she throws a haymaker um and it kind of gets at one of the things that i i used to think about a lot with the nba when switching became very in vogue in the nba um the atlanta dream had been switching pretty much mercilessly uh throughout the course of the the playoff so far and i think that's made things difficult on gabby and veronica uh stokes is not necessarily a scorer perfect player to attack the switches but it's just not been a good playoffs not been a good finals for her uh but tiffany hayes because she's a smaller guard because she has that athleticism the quickness the ability to go downhill um you can't be as liberal with how you switch onto her right you don't want to throw a big onto a speedy guard like that like you can get away with hillman veronica but she can really punish bigs in a way that those players can and you saw her do that throughout the course of the game some of her finishing just like switching hands in the lefty like the the floater euro step in the middle of the lane um so that was awesome natalie who also prays to the altar of rest and playing a lot of players kept her rotation to basically seven players it was the five starters and the two players that she took out of the starting rotation veronica burton only gets two minutes of rest at the top of the fourth gabby williams plays 37 minutes uh as well and they also run this is not a team that likes to run they play the slowest pace in the league and i think this game they got what i think 17 points off of turnovers yeah um they're a team that sets their defense and and runs their offense in order to set their defense they usually don't like to get that kind of a match they want to grind it out they like to grind it out uh but i think that she just realized that they we need to find some way to just get points on the board and being able to do that transition was going to be the ones one of the ways that they did that yeah and i think not letting atlanta get out in transition was another key factor just taking the ball handling pressure off of veronica burton by putting two people in the lineup that i think could get their feet into the paint and like tiffany hayes kind of had a slow start just with foul trouble she got in foul trouble really early uh was throwing up so she i think natalie probably told her be aggressive we need you to score and we saw that early and it wasn't really working out but then in the fourth quarter she kind of put the game away um but kayla charles i think that was the big impact i know that hayes had the moments in the fourth quarter but i that energy just like she was always the first one to the floor she was getting those you balls and when you're in a possession battle it's easy to overlook that during the regular season but when you're in a possession battle that is dictating who is winning these games i think i saw like whoever has had the most shots has won every game so far yeah um that's huge and that's like beyond like there was a couple times early in the game where she got to the rim and she she kept them scoring because golden safe got off to a slow start i think they missed their first six threes uh i think it might have been like nine to two early on or something like that and she was the one that kind of kept kept them in the game early and then they go to xander lucini which i think is like the domino effect of you know taking her out of the line uh the lineup is she comes in atlanta you know like when you're in one of these games and atlanta doesn't play a lot of people but you're gonna like blow your energy load like early in these games and she kind of got to come in feel the game out and pick her spots and she got a lot of deflections and she hit a three started talking to the crowd she had a and one layup i think uh ryan fouled her and like that was the only spurt that the balkaries got but it was the only spurt that they needed in the game so i i thought that was more so the benefit of the lineup change wasn't necessarily like tip hayes although she was the closer it was getting the 50 50 balls from charles and then getting zanna lucini more comfortable in a role like you said she's better off the bench yeah okay this actually gets into my second adjustment that i loved so bringing treci off of the bench in these lineups that had either kia stokes or kayla charles or kayla thornton um with gabby and burton i think i think just a combination of her her and charles playing together and the ball pressure that they had uh there was just so much combined speed and size on the court and typically in this series when kia stokes has gone out natalie's gone to amanita guy now maybe she didn't want to poke the bear again didn't want to wake up angel reese so we don't we're not necessarily going to play amanita guy in this game and she also didn't go to leticia and me here who are kind of more traditional bigs she went to this very speedy lineup um that i think in the second quarter just that was a quarter of the game to me um the turnovers from atlanta their inability to execute their offense and allowing golden state to just get out and run like that lineup really dictated or continued a lot of that in in my opinion and i it was just yeah i think it was yeah like you said it was just one of the one of the nice ripple effects and that's when they got their their quality their high quality three-point shots was during that little second half our second quarter spurt like outside of that like off of memory i just i didn't think they got like good three-point attempts and it was it was not a great offense performance it was we saw a lot of that where they're just passing around the perimeter and they like the shot clocks running down they default to like a burton ball screen and just goes nowhere just because they're not creating advantages because they're switching everything so you're not getting that at initial advantage you're not getting them in rotation so it just evolved into a one-on-one game and they they were able to get more better matchups better matchups is how i would put it when xander lucini was out there because then you have xander lucini and you have gabby williams you can both raise up over shorter defenders and make shots but outside of that like i would be worried about the offense the when the starting lineup was out there i think their offensive rating was 40 so like 0.4 points per possession when xander lucini was out there was like 120 jesus like the lineup the lineup which i i was shocked they didn't go back to it in the second half because in the first half it was their best lineup it was stokes xander lucini williams charles and burton and first of all atlanta was 0.4 points per possession and golden state was 1.6 do you have their turnover do you have atlanta's turnover percentage again no but it was high that that was what was causing because xander lucini caused like four turnovers in that one quarter alone she had two steals and then she had two other deflections um but going into the second half they had only played eight minutes together that lineup that was their best lineup going into this game it was their best lineup in the first half and then we didn't see it in the second half which i think was maybe natalie just like we need the scoring punch from tip haze and we don't want to put xander lucini she did get into foul trouble xander lucini so that might have but i'm interested to see if they kind of ramp up the usage going forward and then in the next three games because that is a lineup because it's not just the offensive punch you get from xander lucini it's what you said like you you can get into that zone and it just feels impossible to get inside of it because of the length the athleticism how they're moving around and atlanta had no answers for it outside of like two i think there were like two cuts where they got layups against the zone outside of that it was just bad shots all night long yeah absolutely i think there were like jordan canada busted the zone a couple times kind of in the same sort of tiffany hayes way of like i'm just going to be faster than you but other than that they didn't really get a lot out of it um and that's also i think i think atlanta is going to need to clean up a little bit of that so i think that's a good thing i think atlanta is going to clean up its offensive execution a good deal like this was one of those like classic atlanta games on offense where you know i think i think one of the big stories of this game is that that a lot of natalie nikasi's adjustments hinged on accepting the angel reese as the star of this series and that has been one of the more fascinating storylines of the finals and of the playoffs because of the exponential improvement the angel reese has made on offense you can actually go into a series and you can actually go into a series and you can actually go into a series and you can actually go into a series and you can actually go into a series and you can actually go into a series in game one and think okay well we're not going to focus our defensive game plan on angel reese and then hit the end of game three and realize that you have no choice but to do that there's some there's some incredible charts from like some of the espn people on her offensive improvement throughout the course of of the postseason and it's truly unprecedented stuff but they decided okay we're going to treat you like a star right like a lot of what we're talking about with the sizing up really and and and and relying more on speed really is a big part of the game and i think really has a lot to do with the adjustments that they made on her she ended up having maybe one of the worst games of her career yeah um eight points two for 12 from the field um she misses two free throws in a row which is uncharacteristic with like the streak that she's been on she had six turnovers um just trying to force things that weren't there she said after the game that she was feeling rushed like she wasn't actually slowing down and finishing her layups the way that she needs to and i've long held the belief i think that's why the improvement has been so exponential that angel reese's finishing issues are all psychological they're all about her actually just like being able to get in the headspace where she's patient enough and i think she had this she just you know she was hesitating the beginning of this game yeah she had an open free throw i mean open three-pointer at the beginning of the game and she didn't take it so right then and there i was like oh this might not be angel's night like it just might not be her night she had another one where she missed two two layups um in a row like he's from the exact same spot something that look if she did it in may or june you'd be you wouldn't be that surprised but this version of angel reese it is sort of jarring to to see so like that that was that was huge and i think that kind of like now it kind of shifts the onus back on atlanta to think to think about how they're actually going to adjust to all that and she didn't get an offensive rebound until under four minutes left in the game like she had i was like tracking it throughout the game she had zero in the first half and i was i was looking back at her game logs it would have been the fifth time in her career she didn't end with an offensive rebound but she got it at the end i think one of them was when she missed those two bunnies she got two offense boards on one possession so they i think that was a byproduct i don't know if it was intentional but that was a byproduct of the attention they were getting they had so many bodies around here having charles out there too she was just like getting her hand to the ball when when she couldn't like actually get under the ball for the rebound she got a hand in there tipped it up and caused a lot of chaos so i think they did a really good job with angel i think they did a really good job with angel and i think they did a really good job with angel i don't think i don't expect her to go one for 12 or whatever she ended up for the rest of the series but i think you do have something you can build off of and i i would put part of it on atlanta they didn't seem so intentional on getting her the ball the first couple games when you watch it it was like oh they're playing through her in this game this was one of those games where she has to call for the ball and kind of fight for it and you could see it like throughout the game there was one fast break i was laughing she she was uh i think it was thornton she was beating her down the court but thornton was like in position to defend the pass and like jordan canada was bringing the ball up and angel was just like screaming for the ball and then jordan was like dude you have a person behind you right i can't get you the ball right now but i think it just spoke to the sense of urgency that angel had after that slow first quarter wasn't really impactful in the second quarter and then in the fourth quarter she really did try to like it didn't work but she tried to put her foot on the gas i think she was pressing a little bit i think but like that's i wouldn't want to see her do that i wouldn't want to see her revert into her shell um we'll see what happens going forward but yeah she's a big like bounce back after a bad game type of player as well like she's done that her whole year for sure like even over the courses of seasons like when she's gotten off to a slow start with her field percentage you could always expect it to bounce back and i think she's gonna have a bounce back game here I really don't think they did too much different. It was just like they did it better. And I think that's what Natalie was saying too during the game. It's the imposition of will. Right. Which brings me to two things. I'll quickly go through the possession battle because the possession battle, like you said, has dictated the entire series. And the Valkyries completely flipped the script. They win the offensive rebounding battle 13 to 12. The forced turnover advantage is 18 to 9. And they end up out shooting Atlanta by 18. And that doesn't happen to Atlanta. They do not get outshot very often. They certainly don't get outshot by 18. And Kia Stokes is another huge reason that they won. The unsung hero for the Valkyries. You're shaking your head, so I feel like I'm going to let you go here. No, it's just her ability. And I think the zone kind of helped her too. Like you kind of preserve her. And I don't know if she played more minutes, but it felt like she was on the court, especially in the first half. Like Angel went out before Kia Stokes went out, which is like, I think we've seen the reverse of that. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think that. I think that you're just bringing the best out of her defensively by not. Because there's so much of an onus on her because she's the only person on that roster that could defend Angel Reese 101. That could like take that shoulder into the chest and not go anywhere. And I think finding ways to relieve that pressure while like putting more on her play, like in terms of minutes. I feel like Natalie did a great job of doing that this game. And she never seemed to wear down defensively. That's the thing that kind of stood out to me. Like even like in the fourth quarter and she's playing so hard throughout the game. She was still fighting for every rebound, fighting to get in position to defend every shot. It was a masterful defensive performance. I think she already set the record for blocks in the WNBA finals. And it's not. It looks like it when you're watching. The eye test matches the numbers that we're seeing in the box score. She. Like outside of Gabby Williams' shot creation, I think that was the biggest factor in the game. She also had a career-high 16 rebounds as well. Yeah, rebounds were crazy. Eight of them were on the offensive end. So she kind of, I'm not going to lie, she kind of snatched Angel Chain a little bit. She did. She did. She didn't talk as much shit, but. No, she didn't. She played the role that Angel had been playing for the last couple of games. Like she was. Everything you could think of that they needed to do, defend the rim a little bit better, get better defense, win the possession battle, win the rebounding battle. Like she played the biggest hand in all of that. One thing that's cool with her is. Like I was reading this profile, the SF Chronicle by Ron Krojic. And she's one of those rare players who didn't become a defensive player out of like necessity. Like even as a kid, all she wanted to do was block shots and defend. Like she was so prideful about not letting, like even like little kids score on her. Her dad tells a story. Her dad actually played basketball, I think at Iowa. But like fifth grade, like she loved blocking shots and she like had a defensive reputation, which I think is just so, so interesting. But another player, honestly, that's been here in these spots before, right? Like she didn't play a lot in the finals last year when she was with the Aces. She played one big possession, but she started in the two titles that they won in 22 and 23, both because of, I think, injuries to the team. 23 was an injury to Candice Parker. And yeah, like she's just one of those glue players. Like I think, you know, as you start to sort of like zoom out and think about these players' legacies and stuff, one thing with Kia Stokes is, I think that she's just going to be one of those players that imperceptibly like, you know, might probably won't like make the Hall of Fame or anything like that, but she's just going to be around where winning happens. She's always there. It's like, it's like in a movie, like when, like it's like a conspiracy movie and like the, whatever, the protagonist is figuring out what's going on and he sees the same guy in the background of every photo. Like that's her, but it's like championship, whatever, photographs after they win the championship. That's going to be her. Yeah. Look, I mean, she won titles with Stewie at UConn too. So there's that aspect of it as well. But she was, she was awesome. Golden State's offense. One adjustment that I really, really liked from them is they've obviously run a ton of ISO and they run a lot of pick and roll trying to, especially when Angel's not in the game. Yeah. But one of the things that they did a good job of when Angel wasn't a game is when they bring up players for screens, they're now looking for the right mismatch. The first three games of the series, a lot of, I think, the reason that Gabby and Veronica Burton struggled is because they would end up attacking Angel Reese or Naz Hillman on a switch. And this game, Gabby was, she got a lot of shots on Alicia Gray. She got some early post seals on Jordan Canada, who they were definitely targeting. Kayla Charles had a really good one on her too, where she found Stokes for a layup. I thought they just, they just did a lot better job of like being intentional about, about their rebounds. And this was obviously like, you know, beyond the X's and O's, this is a huge game for Gabby Williams. I think that the, the conversation has sort of kind of turned to like, if you, if you look at this series as sort of like a war metaphors, like which general is really going to rally her troops, like this entire post season, we've been talking about Angel Reese being this motivating force, like the dog that Atlanta needed to be able to get over the hump and be able to just dig in and do that extra work. And the question is, the question was really like, was Gabby going to be able to do the same thing. And we, we saw that video of her, like screaming at her screaming at, but like sort of just kind of like angry after the game and the huddle with her teammates and they had no issue with it. You know, Kia basically said like, this is kind of what you would want in a moment like this. But she said after the game, this was interesting. She said like in reality, it got her going. Like she said she didn't like who she was last game. And like if she was going to try to take that leadership position off of the court, like it put the onus on her to actually have to step up on the court and do it. Like you can't, you can't ask something of your teammates that you don't do yourself. So I think she almost like put a healthy amount of pressure on herself. And I thought just really like you mentioned the mid Rangers, but just like doing it against the right players, right. Matchups, like just being really intentional about that, I think helped a lot. Even, even so, like, I don't think like efficiency is not really a story in this series. Like she didn't have the most efficient game at 17, 18 points on, on, on 21 shots. But look in a series where like, like the average field goal percent is probably around like 35% for both teams. So like that other than, I guess like Atlanta had that really good offensive performance the other night. Um, that's fine. - Yeah. And if it felt like, especially watching this game, like if you just got a quality shot against a good, like a mismatch, that felt like a win. That felt like a bucket going in, even if it didn't go in and like, that's what this game was about was like, who was going to make the tough shots like Ryan, Howard kind of kept them in it by making some tough shots over defenders, inside the arc. And then obviously Gabby took it to another level. I thought it was a huge game for Veronica bird, just because like how those first couple of games look in her being able to get, like you said, like a lot of the times when they would like call the ball screen and they would switch and it'd be her on angel Reese. And like, she's just dribbling, not really going anywhere. I thought in this game, she was more intentional, intentional about getting those mismatches, getting to those spots on the court. And I thought it was fitting that the kind of, the dagger was her hitting a fade away over Jordan, Canada from the free throw line. Cause that's just like what the game was about. It's about tough shot making in that little area against a favorable matchup. And the Valkyries got more of those. Like I looking back on it, like they obviously didn't shoot a great percentage and Gabby Williams didn't like, she didn't shoot 65% or anything, but I can't remember a time when I was like, Oh, that was a bad shot. She forced a shot there. It was like, Oh, that makes sense. That's what they were hunting. And first time all series, even the game one where I felt like that was the case, for the most part throughout it. - I don't, oh man, I should have pulled this up before we started recording. I don't have the exact numbers on how many mid range jumpers both teams have taken. Neither of these teams like the mid range. - No. - They're both very analytically inclined threes and layups type teams. But I think that. - I got it. I got it right here. It's 20. I don't know if this is updated with the latest game, but it looks like it's 28 for golden state and 17 for Atlanta to your point. - Okay. Okay. - Eight for 28. Atlanta, seven for 17 in the series. - Okay. I would imagine that's probably the first few games of the series, just because I feel like there were some, there were quite a few made mid range jumpers in this game. Either way. I do think that, you know, just based on the eye test, they are taking more. And one thing I'm curious about is how that will carry on throughout the course of the series, because the way that the dream defend, they're not going to let you get threes off. They would much rather let you get into the paint, for some of those mid paint jumpers that like, you know, mathematically was working out for them. Kia Stokes was like basically the only player that were, they were really letting get threes. Like they're not, they they're just like gold and golden state. Hasn't really been able to do anything about that. They haven't really been able to actually generate high quality three point looks Veronica Burton hit two huge ones that like they're both off the dribble. She's not a great off the dribble shooter, but she just hit two huge shots. And a lot of it has been that, like, I think what, they had four made threes all game to two of them are those ones. One of them is Chechi who can make a hard one. I guess Kayla made one. I think I missed that, but 16%. And I do wonder if at some point in the series, like one way I think the boundaries could potentially take control of a series is just taking less threes, just understanding that you're like, probably not going to win the shot quality there. You're probably not going to win the math there. Like, well, Let's, let's turn some of the, even more of those into mid range jumpers. Like it makes sense over the course of like a large 44 game sample size to efficiency max, but like here you're in a battle. And like I said, it feels like every time you get a good shot against a good matchup, it feels like a win for the offense on both sides of the court. So I agree. Like I, I wouldn't be happy. I know they want to shoot a bunch of threes, but if Kia Stokes is shooting 10 corner threes per game and Kayla Charles is doing the same thing, like that's not a win. Gabby's 0 for 6 from three. Yeah. It's, it's a lot of contested shots. Like it's not like the threes that were, it doesn't feel like it's in rhythm, right? It doesn't feel like there's a lot of clock, a lot. And I mean, like they like to play in the end of the clock, so it's, it's fine. But Atlanta is the best three point defense in the W. So this is not surprising by any means. Burton was also just so physical. I think she was really, I don't think like the box score is going to credit her for this, but a lot of those box outs, it's like one of the big reasons that Golden State won the offensive rebound battle. Is I think the guard crash outs. And I think Burton really led the charge there. She also drew two charges. I mean, she leads, she led the regular season charges drawn. So that's not no surprise, but she's like a big one on Angel Reese. She was just generally on the floor a lot today. Like she was getting hit in the face a lot, like on the other side. Like I felt like she was grabbing at her face, like every other possession. Like she played face first in this game. I think it's the best way to put it. That's actually very good. It's a very Jane Melvin approach to the game. Yes. Yes. Very Jane Melvin quoted. I'm glad she has her teeth though. What'd you think of the reps by the way? I kind of thought it was two, two different games being called on either end. I thought both teams just attacked the paint, but I thought Atlanta got a favorable whistle. I've seen some dream fans complaining, but I mean, every fan base complains, but it did seem like, I don't think Golden State got a favorable whistle in this game. Like I thought they were on the short end of a lot of it, which that's why Atlanta stayed in the game. I know they missed some free throws, more free throws than you would expect from them, but they shot what 30, 31 free throws. I think Atlanta, let me check. It was like 31 to 10 at one point. I know Golden State got a couple of free throws at the end. Cause yeah, 31 to 31 to 13, which is a pretty like that discrepancy for the team that was, as we've talked about this entire podcast, some more physical one to get 18 less free throws. Definitely stands out to me for sure. Yeah. I honestly, I'm not going to lie. It got so bad that I started just like, tracking the bad calls. There were like, there was a Tiffany Hayes foul when Alicia Gray just slipped. Yeah. There was one like that with Caitlin Chen too. I think when Alicia and Caitlin kind of got into it after, but there was one like that. There was a couple of those. It was like, it wasn't called like a playoff game on one end. And I thought it really was like, Atlanta really got some leeway with how physical they were able to be. And I don't think Golden State got the same leeway to be honest. No, there were coming. I mean, I think they definitely, I think one player that they fell the crap, but it was Angel Reese. And I think that they just set the tone of doing that early. And they were like, okay, refs like either your fellows all out, you don't, but in the perimeter and I think on the drives, it was, it was a, it was a differently rough game in the post. And it was, I think on the perimeter with the, with the drives. And then I felt bad for Natalie also challenging that, that, that play in the first quarter, as well as the post-up with Chechi on, on Canada, that was originally called for an offensive foul. I thought it was a really good challenge. I thought it should have gotten overturned. It was a bad call. That was a really bad call. It was just a bucket. Like, I don't understand. - It was just an easy, it was like clearly a bucket. Like she was like, if you want to say that she was in like, like Jordan was in her space of anything. Like I wouldn't have called it either way. - Right. - But I thought it was such a layup that I understood Natalie taking the challenge so early. And I was shocked when they didn't overturn it. But I also feel like, man, sometimes the refs are so defensive that like, you see it, you see it kind of bear its head when they get challenged like they don't always want to overturn stuff. And then Smiths go even had to overturn the really obvious loose ball. That was clearly out of burden. Like that was so obvious that like literally anybody just, yeah, I mean, look, it's, it's I'm not saying anything new here. WNB refs suck. I thought this game, like it's like Golden State one. So ultimately it doesn't matter, but I thought that they, they got some bad breaks in this game for sure. - Yeah. And it kept them in the game. Like, I don't think this is as much of a, it got competitive in the fourth quarter. I don't think that's the case of it. If Atlanta doesn't shoot, like I think they shot like 15 free throws in the third quarter. - Yeah. They missed a ton too, though. - They did miss, they shot 12 in the third quarter alone. - Oof. Yeah. I mean, look, look credit to Ryan Howard, who I think was doing a really good job of trying to impose her will on the game. Yeah. She got seven of those free throws. I think, look like when you drive to the rim and you're as athletic as her, that's great. Like I thought she was awesome. I just, I think I just wanted to say something nice about Ryan Howard because, this was a game where she could've used some help. Like 19 points. - Yeah, she was the best player on the court for me. - Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And she was trying to step up in all the big moments, but Alicia Gray, that's a, yeah. One for seven, five points. - She did draw fouls. I'll give her that. She drew a lot of fouls. A lot of those questionable calls. - She had a huge drive at the start of the game, even like that, which was legit. Like, but like she came out very aggressive. - This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Boar's Head just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planting your whole day around it. Presenting the Friars Turkey Breast, only from Boar's Head. Backyard tradition now available behind the counter. 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Tramphya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections, or lower ability to fight them in liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Talk to your doctor and explore what's possible or call 1-800-526-7000. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more about Tramphya and visit tramphyaradio.com. I thought Borlae's outplayed her in this game and it's kind of like almost been a theme. Yeah, I don't, you think she's hurt or do you think it's more of the matchup? Because she, I mean, some of it, it doesn't feel like the hand would affect it. Like some of it, she's just like throwing up wild shots and maybe it is like psychological, but she's threw up a lot of wild shots in traffic today. But that's kind of her game sometimes. But yeah, it was, she didn't get a lot of shots. I think it's both. Like obviously the defense is a factor, but she was 0 for 4 from 3. She hasn't been able to get the three-pointer going throughout the course of the series at all. And that last three that she took, that was one where I felt like she was really pressing and it kind of hits the backboard and the rim and it goes off. And I think Atlanta got two threes on that possession. I think there was an offensive rebound. And they just didn't make them. No, I think Georgia Canada had a rebound too. Yeah, oh yeah, she clanked one, yeah. That was a big story for Atlanta as well. Like I think Atlanta actually generated some good looks that they just didn't make. One thing that was crazy to me was how much they were going under on Ryan Howard on picks as well. Like I feel like they continue to do that. There's a good chance that she can punish them there. It felt like Smezko could draw up a play that got Ryan Howard an open three whenever he wanted. He didn't do it. He didn't do it much just because like the rhythm of the game. But even like Borlase had a couple open threes in the fourth quarter. I know she hit one to cut it to six, but she had one at the end there that could have made it a game and it was wide open. So they generated good looks there. They just, like you said, just didn't knock them down. Yeah. Yeah. Borlase 22 minutes today. Crank that up to a 27. I wouldn't be mad at that. Do you think Smezko will use his bench? I. Like, what are you suggesting? Like more Dewana Bonner minutes or like going deeper into the bench? I wouldn't mind seeing Medina Okot make an appearance in this series. Yeah, I wonder if he's afraid of it becoming a faster game and her getting beat down the court just because you don't want to give up any freebies to Golden State just how the game is going. But I mean, I think they got to do something with put some size out there to lean on Kia Stokes a little bit and make her game harder. Like I said, I thought this was one of her more impactful games, but it was also like one of her easier games when you look at like the actual defensive role she played just because they got into zone a little bit, which she didn't have to move around and fight for position as much. Well, I think the other thing that they did was bringing Kyla Charles into the game and just like those lineups that we talked about earlier. It made it a lot easier for them to defend Naz Hillman. Yeah. And it just kind of mucked up the spacing a little bit. So one of the things that you can do if you want to counter that is throwing in a player like Okot, who is such an incredible finisher and really can just like get easy offense for you. You know, she's 6'6". For those of you who haven't watched her, she's just like a natural post-up talent. Great touch, both hands, like shot 58% from the field in her rookie season, had games where just like you could, there's just so much potential there with her. And the big thing too, is that she's also a fantastic offensive rebounder. So I think, you could throw her out there and try it and see if you can stabilize your half-court offense a little bit. Because I think that she's someone that if you have two post-threats, it makes it easier on Angel to generate something in the half-court. She's also someone that you could throw it down to to get something going and she can potentially get an offensive rebound as well. So maybe she actually kind of inherently slows the game down a little bit. And maybe then Golden State plays into that because that is actually how they like to play. So, I don't know. I would try it because here's the thing, like Angel's going to start, you kind of felt it in this, I don't know if it's fatigue or a lack of just like, you know, like I think she was just kind of jittery today. Fourth quarter though, I felt like she was getting a little tired. Yeah. And this could now be a seven game series. The longer the series goes, the more it favors a team that uses their depth. Natalie now is kind of in a position where she can afford to have her players play 38 minutes a night because, they've spent this entire run not doing that. And that hasn't been the case for Atlanta. Ideally, you would have gotten Okot involved earlier in the series or in the playoffs. That's what I would have liked to see. I do think it's one of Carl's weaknesses is a sort of like lack of trust in the bench. Like he kind of just like rides the guys that he has. But I think that it might be time just to see what she can do. I think if it's this type of game too, it makes more sense because this was more of a half court game for Atlanta. They didn't get the turnovers. They couldn't get out and run, which maybe that explains some of the Angel struggles just because, I think she's at her best when they're spacing and she can like drive on a big or get out and transition. She didn't have those opportunities. So maybe this is like, I think that does suit Okot a lot more rather than like an up and down. You're not going to get the most out of the, those transition opportunities with her on the court. So I think maybe it's one of those feel things where it's like the second quarter. Oh, we're not getting, we're not running a lot. We're playing in the half court. And I think you throw her out there and let her overwhelm the Valkyries with her size. She's like, that's the one thing their defense is they don't have a tremendous amount of size outside of Stokes. Yeah. I had, I pulled up a stat before we started. Angels played all but 23 minutes in this series. That's insane. And they've been outscored by 18 points in those minutes that she sat. So it's, it's a storyline to watch. Yeah. I think that is the storyline is like, we've talked about how great she's been, but from the first four games, my takeaway would be she needs to play like that, which maybe is unfair to her, because she's supposed, like she's the third option on paper. But if she doesn't play like that, the game gets so much harder for Atlanta. Well, the series is not really about first, second or third options in the traditional sense, right? Like we talked about it in last game where I kind of talked about not feeling like Gabby is a number one option. You know, Atlanta doesn't really have a number one option either. It has like two really good number twos and Angel Reese, who has become a sort of number one, but entered this season being like the number three off. And would have been number four, actually, if Bree Jones had been healthy. And that sort of dynamic is completely flipped. But this series is about possessions. It's about hustle. It's about motor. It's about offensive rebounds. It's about who gets to play in transition. It's about dictating the pace. Like it's not really a traditional playoff series in the sense of, okay, the game's kind of, you know, coming to a close final minute. Like what does, like, for example, the Valkyries, what they, what did they do in the final two minutes of the game? They stretched out one possession to 50 seconds because Veronica Burton got fouled and then Kia Soaks got an offensive rebound. Then Alicia Gray misses a huge shot, but then Isabel Borlase gets an opportunity for a huge shot. That happens on the other end with like, earlier in the game with like, okay, Gabby Williams misses a three, but they get the offensive rebound. I think Veronica Burton, somebody else scores a layup. Like this is not a series that is going to be dictated by like, who has, who's the best player on offense every night. It's going to be dictated by who has the toughest players and who has like the leader of women on a nightly basis. Like it's a rock fight. It feels like a college game to me. Like, yeah, where you're not going to lean on stars. I mean, it feels like a college football game. Yeah, it feels like a college football game, to be honest. But no, like these are the type of, this is the type of basketball I like. Like I prefer, on the men's side, I prefer college basketball over the NBA because you get games like this, where it's kind of ugly and you're not, it's like more schematic. And like you said, a battle of wills, but that's what it feels like it's going to be. Which, who do you think that, that behooves? Like who, who has the advantage there because of that? On paper, you would think it's at Golden State, just because like you said, they don't have, like Ryan Howard, like is probably a number two. Alicia Gray is probably a number two, but we kind of view them as number one, just based on production. Kind of evens, evens the matchup because Golden State doesn't have the scores that we think of. Well, I had Atlanta winning, so I'm going to stick to my guns, but there are definitely some things that happened that are starting to favor the Valkyries, right? Like they found this lineup that I think can do wonders for them. The longer the series goes, the more it favors them. And they also have home court advantage back. So those things absolutely favor Golden State. Atlanta has Angel Reese coming off of a loss. You have like the, like an all-time motor player on, on the, on the other end. And you also got really good contributions from your role players. Like Naz Hillman was, was awesome. And if it was, if, if they won this game, we'd be talking about her. So I don't know. I, by the way, mini story. I like to see Hillman and Kyla Charles mixing it up as well. That was good. I'm surprised we haven't had like a full blown, like not like a full fight or anything. I don't expect that, but like, just like, like four or five people, like in a scuffle. They're starting to get annoyed with each other. Like today you saw it, but I think the refs are like trying to be proactive against it. Like that, that was a soft technical, in my opinion. I mean, we don't know what she said exactly, but like just based off the gesturing, like that should be. Yeah. I think the technicals I can live with only because of just the, the, the voltage with the players in this series. I do understand that aspect, but I know it was kind of soft. It was kind of soft, but I get it. But like as a fan, now I want the lead into the chaos. I want some, some messiness. Yeah. A little bit of trash. Like, they have a good chunk of trash talk go though. At the same time. That's a good point. Well, I don't think she's gotten one tech for anything. She's done. At this point, she got one in the playoffs. I don't even remember one. And she's been toeing the line a little bit. Like the Sabrina incident. She didn't get one. And Natalie got a tech too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Was she the one that got it today? Yeah. She got a tech. Yeah. I was kind of confused about that. Cause I just saw, I think Ryan Howard ended up at the line, but it made sense. She had to add one in the extra free throw, but she didn't make it. Yeah. That was, that was one of those calls where I was like, that's when you get a tech. Sometimes I get mad at Sidney Johnson. I've come around on Sidney Johnson. I was slandering him earlier in my early podcast. He was my coach in the year pick. But I, sometimes you just need to get some technicals. And I appreciate that Natalie sees those moments and does it. Sidney just like sits there with his arms crossed the whole time. Yeah. He kind of pissed me off. I mean, he's hype in the, he's hype in the locker room. That's true. I mean, I will say there wasn't that time that he actually, like had to get escorted out of the game because he was that angry. It was against Atlanta. It was, I think it was like the third game of the season. Yeah. Yeah. Security. Everyone was involved. I was like, that's what maybe. Yeah. I want him to be, I don't know, crashing out every other week. Before we move on, we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about the, the fever front office shakeup before we move on though. Anything else in the series that you wanted to hit? The only thing I, and I hit on it earlier, I want to see Vandalicini play more. Like I get the theory on it in the second half, but that lineup, I think you have something with that length. And I think that that's the only way you're going to create easy offenses, having that length disrupting, whatever Atlanta has going and getting turnovers. And we saw it in, in practice that second quarter and it worked. And that was the only time they got in rhythm, a spot up opportunities from three and they just haven't gotten them outside of that. So that's what I want to see. So that if I could be Natalie for a day one i would quit and then get a job with the mystics that's my dream coach two i would play uh chichi a little bit more going forward yeah okay yeah i think that's i think that's a good call um yeah i mean from the atlanta and i'm just i'm very interested in carl smesco um he's his uh in-game adjustments have been criticized in the past his in-series adjustments were criticized in the first round against the fever when they lost last year i think he's improved on both of those fronts quite a bit um we'll see if he plays the right notes i would love to see a little bit of zone i would love to see some scram switching so that they could make sure that gabby and veronica are guarding the players or guarded by the players that they want them um to be guarded by uh but i mean even all that stuff that comes down to execution is it like are you going to get like are you going to run over after the switch fast enough sort of stuff and hey maybe you don't want to do that maybe that opens up the three-point shootout a little bit too much but also maybe the offensive glass it opens up a little bit more when you're like yeah maybe scrambling so i don't know i don't want to see i want to see if he uses his bench a little bit more um the alicia gray thing is really like the bigger long-term thing that i would worry about in this series as well like if she really is just as hurt then it's gonna have to be it's gonna have to be ryan howard doing what she did today but on overdrive like more i think that's probably the lesson from this game like you weren't gonna go you weren't gonna take it from golden state like that like if you wanted to take it from golden state you had to be full metal like on their necks the entire game and i think that some players had some moments but it wasn't enough no they proved they could take the punch today and i think that was very much a question i think i thought it was a fair question just because we haven't seen them on this level before but i thought like they look defeated like everyone was saying like literally everyone was saying it and they came out and punched them right back in the mouth um stephen thank you so much for hopping on i appreciate it for having me happy we got to talk about a good game game and i don't have to be sad about this series like just i don't know it felt like it could have just fallen off the rails and it just would have been a bummer like last year's uh series so feel good yeah me too i'm i'm glad that we got it we're we're getting a seven game series that could actually go to seven that's awesome it's really fun um all right i will hit you up later um also if you guys like the show subscribe follow all those things make sure you're tapped in we're going after every single finals game and thank you to stefan this episode is brought to you by whole foods market fall is here and whole foods market has everything you need for cozy meals seasonal treats and easy entertaining elevate your hearty dishes with tasty bone-in beef short ribs or new york strip steaks with no added growth hormones or antibiotics and as the fall evenings draw in why not get ahead of cold season with immunity shots herbal teas lasages and supplements make sure you look for sales throughout the month shop fall flavors with higher standards at whole foods market this is u.s bank's cozy cash formations with your chief financial playmaker fernando mendoza you are worthy of financial security budgeting is not restriction it's freedom you are smart you are capable you are giving your money a purpose you are learning the language of saving of growing now streaming member fdic copyright 2026 u.s bank