8 Practical Money-Making Tips for 2026 (Part 2)

- Let's talk about practical tips for brands to make more money right now. - That's the hook, that's the promise. 2026, you want more dollars in your pocket. We have brought you a collection of somewhere between eight and 10 amazing tips that will make you more money today. - I'm pumped, man. It's a great time to be an entrepreneur. - That's my number one take. - I'll pay anybody the same amount of money I pay Zuck if they get me incremental customers. - People need to understand is that everything is essentially random because there are so many inputs to the model. That you just have to react better than everyone else. - The tools are already so much better than you. You're the barrier, you're the bottleneck. But every single day I've done like four grand. And this is free money. They take a commission, they take like a wholesale fee from it and the orders go directly to you, basically drop ship. - I don't know what it is for your business, but I know every single person listening to this, there's one thing that you have been avoiding. And it's like, do it, just do it. There's no point being a pessimist because then you're not going to capitalize on the randomness, right? You just need to be ready. - Your website to your playground, you can do it over you want. But once you go to somebody else's playground, it just gets way more competitive. - I use for fail, grooms use for fail. Cuts uses for fail, excites use for fail. Why did we all choose for fail? There's no expensive middleware, there's no third party of alpers, there's no consultants. You can be live in a couple of weeks for order management, inventory management, accounting, EDI purchasing and manufacturing. There's a reason why grooms, the greatest e-com brand of the past five years was looking at all of them and they chose for fail. They are the number one ERP for this podcast for a recent mention, the operators podcast and you can use them too. Got the full squad, Mike, Jason, Matt, re-uniting after a nice long holiday break. Guys, how are you, Jason? How are you doing, brother? - So good, so good to be back in LA. Team is cranking, ready for a grade 2026, recapping the year internally right now. And it's exciting, Danny's back in the office, we're all back in the office. It's good time to be a tech squad. - Good time to be alive, dude. Are we gonna be getting Super Bowl part two this year? - No, we are not doing a Super Bowl again this year. The Super Bowl actually did really well for us, but I think it's, we wanna do it when Fox has it. So Fox will not have the Super Bowl until 28. - They renew it every, is it a? - The NFL passes it around different networks. - Okay. - I don't know how the allocation goes, but I think Fox gets it like every four years or three years. And I think they get it in 28, February of. - 28 or 27, I forget, but it's not this February. So I think it's next February. So I think it's February 27, actually. - Is that, are you not doing it because out of loyalty to Fox, or is it part of your deal with Fox? - Not about it, that's not about our deal, and it's not about loyalty, but it is about like Super Bowl is very expensive, and there's a lot that goes with it. And so it's gonna be, certainly gonna be more economical if we do it with Fox because they are, you know, a shareholder. - Yeah. - It's still gonna cost a lot, but it's gonna be there's certainly economics about it that make more sense. And I just think it's worth waiting for us. - Yeah, and you know the team over there, you trust the team over there, you already do a lot of productions, and it makes it kinda sense. Dude, how long until Netflix gets it? 'Cause like, Netflix is buying games. It primes buying games. - Primes doing MBA and stuff. - Yep, I've got NFL. - For sure. I mean, I would say prime would be the first one to get it, right? Amazon would get it first. - Yeah, so that's gonna be crazy to watch. All right, Mike, how are you doing? How's this year's shaping up? - I'm stoked on 2026. How are you? - I'm fired up. Like, I think I'm probably going into this year with more excitement than any year I can remember. And like, I think more uncertainty in some areas. Like, man, I don't know how exactly everything's gonna play out, but I just feel like there's so many different vectors where we can see growth and where opportunity lies. And so, I'm pumped, man. That's my number one take. It's like, it's easier to be an entrepreneur and to do things that really matter at scale than ever before in human history. And so, how can you not be pumped about that? - Dude, I'm right there with you, Matt. Are you gonna keep bringing up the optimism? Everyone's stuff on the podcast. - I'm an optimist. I'm an optimist. I'm feeling really good about 2026, but I don't know if it's just because 2025 was so-- - The bar was so low for 20 years. - Is it like, was the bar so bad? Is that why I'm feeling good? That right now, I just haven't been told that my water's gonna get tariffed. I don't know guys, but I'm feeling great. - I think this year, this is my hottest take of 2026. It's gonna be very boring. I know that there's a lot of stuff happening in the world right now that the sensors won't let me talk about. But there's a lot of stuff happening in the world right now. I think it's going to be more like 2019 than any other year we've had. We've had nothing but chaos since 2020. So I think actually we've pretty chill this year, pretty gnawing, pretty boring. And I'm gonna really love it. Today, well, we're gonna, I'll go ahead, do you have a response? - I wanna know why. Like why do you, what pattern are you looking at that tells you this year's gonna be boring? I clearly have the wrong cup of tea leaves. - Well, yeah, look, so from 2020 to 2025, every year there was a defining event that would have been decades news in the 2010s, right? If it's a global pandemic, if it's tariffs, if it's wars, I mean, every single one of those years was crazy. And e-commerce in particular, because what you had was an e-commerce boom, then you had like an e-commerce bust, then you had interest rates going from zero to the highest, they've been in 30 years, all happening in like an 18 month window. And this is the first year where a lot of that is like baked in. We know what the tech situation is going to look like. I don't think it's going to go back up to 200% or whatever. We have interest rates falling. We have e-commerce normalizing. So like for e-commerce merchants in particular, this is like the first year where I'm like, oh, we know all the variables. There's no more shoes left to draw. At least that's my thesis. - Okay. I love Sean. - I think a different take. I actually think the exact opposite of what you think, Sean. I think that I'm very optimistic exactly because things are gonna be so insane. Because my premise is that entrepreneurs thrive when things change. Like basically the more static things are, the more that favors incumbents and really big companies. And the more things move around, the more that creates these attack vectors and these opportunities for disruption and that we're all running SMBs basically. And although Jason might take offense of that, may graduate from us at some point. But like it's good for us when things are uncertain. It's good for us when there's disruptive technology. It's good for us when there's changing customer preferences or new channels emerge and that like I think what's happening. It's like the frog in the slowly boiling water is that we just become, you, I mean, you said it. Like we've become accustomed to like we have weeks where more things are happening now than what happened in decades it felt like. And we're just like, oh yeah, it's just the Tuesday. You know, like that's just a normal day. And so as a result, it's easy to lose side of the fact that the landscape is shifting so quickly and so rapidly right now that if you are, if you're a high agency person that's able to identify opportunities in all the disruption, there's just constantly like every day there's new things that you could go after an attack and simultaneously the tools to make you be able to attack those almost instantaneously have never been more efficient ubiquitous, cost effective. So it's like, it's a perfect storm if you're an entrepreneur. You want high change, high disruption and then the ability to capitalize on it. Boom, that's 20 seconds. - Mike, I kind of agree with you, but I want to add a little bit to what people need to understand is that everything is essentially random because there are so many inputs to the model that you just have to react better than everyone else. Like that's what it is. We have no idea what's going to happen but we are here because we are better at reacting than most people. We have the judgment, we have the track record. So that to me is what this is all about and I love Sean's tweets. You know, it's going to be a great year and all that good stuff and rah rah rah and listen, there's no point in being a pessimist, right? I think that's what Sean is doing. Like there's no point in being a pessimist because then you're not going to capitalize on the randomness, right? Everything is essentially random and be ready to react. - If you're scaling any commerce brand today, ads alone aren't enough. Afterself focuses on the one moment that every brand already owns after checkout and turns the post-purchase moment into more profit. Monetize every order with post-purchase offers and thank you page experiences without disrupting checkout or hurting conversion. Enterprise grade tech used by Gap, ticket master, Macy's and Target. Now driving results for brands like True Classic, Hexclad, Ridge, and Jones Road. I would know. This is the reason I ended up buying three pans from Hexclad instead of two. Afterself has already generated over one billion and additional revenue for e-commerce brands. Revenue that doesn't require more traffic or higher-cap. So check out Afterself and tell them that the operator sent you. - Yeah, well, my theory on that Jason is that things aren't random. They're just so complicated that it approaches. - That's the same thing, yeah, it's the same thing. But here's the thing. We now have technology that can help us to understand and exceptionally nuanced things in ways that our brain couldn't. And so I'm actually starting to go the direction that the technology is going to allow us to be able to peer through the seeming randomness and see paths and patterns that weren't even possible before because our brains just couldn't comprehend all the different inputs. I mean, we're such simplistic creatures. Like, hey, why did my cat go up? And it's like, well, the reason why your acquisition cost went up is 50 fold. There's like 50 different variables that all kind of conspired together and led to a really bad customer acquisition cost last week. And but like what we want is like a simple answer. Like the, you know, the lander was broken. And the reality is that the world is just not simplistic. This is, this is also where the conspiracy theory people get it wrong is that they try to like think about the whole world is like controlled by a small group of people or there's some people that have it all figured out. Like nobody does everything super complicated. But again, if you're really intelligent, your high agency and you have these like superhuman tools, all of a sudden, you can see the patterns that nobody else is seeing. You can see the way to react way before anybody else sees it. And boom, you can capitalize on that. Well, I'm glad that we have exact opposite takes, but they end up in the same place that this year is going to be awesome. And in defense of this year being boring, you know, the obvious, like thing in the distance that is approaching fast is AI, right? Consumer adoption of AI. And I just don't think it happens in mass this year more than it's already happening, right? In 12 months and 18 months and 24 months, I think we'll be wearing glasses trapped to our faces and make every purchase for us and AI bots are powering that. I just don't think it happens in 2026. And so like e-commerce specifically, I'm like, oh, I think this year's going to be rather boring compared to what's happening. Maybe I'll just pray in for that 'cause I could really use a year of just chilling and catching my breath, right? But we'll see what happens. Your year's gonna be totally chill with a baby on the way, dude. You're gonna be so easy. Sean's year's gonna be not chill. Sean's gonna go on paternity leave and the world's gonna be normal. He's gonna come back. We're all flying around in cars and, you know, like everybody's hooked into the matrix. I hate to break it to you, but six or 10 weeks off in this environment is gonna feel like an paternity. - Yeah, you're gonna feel like a caveman who went to bed a million years ago. It was like, wait, what is this stuff? - Yeah, yeah, luckily, I'm telling my wife and my dude, the kid's gonna be so easy. This is gonna be awesome, bro. Kid's gonna show up. I'm not gonna just be. I told my team I'm like like, I'll probably miss two, three stand-ups. That's it, guys. Don't worry. I love it. You're running a siaop and you're becoming a parent. - All right, guys. Let's talk about practical tips for brands to make more money right now. - That's the hook. That's the promise. So we're gonna go around the horn. Everyone's got a tip prepared. I'm gonna go first. This is an easy one. It'll take you about five minutes. Now, it does require a gatekeeper. I think they have to approve you. You have to qualify for it. And maybe you might not make money immediately, but by the end of the year, they'll be making thousands and thousands of dollars every single day. And my tip is to sell on a platform called OnGuddy. So they called emailed us to sign up for it. Actually, I have a head of corporate gifting that like, set up the whole thing. I really think it's one click and Shopify. It's basically like a Shopify collections integration. And all OnGuddy is, is like, they have all the Fortune 500 companies. And when your manager wants to reward you as something, they send you a little gift card. So like a $50 gift card or $100 holiday gift card or whatever. Those people have to spend the money on that platform. And there's only like, right now, 30 brands on that platform. So all of a sudden, Ridge got listed and we were doing a thousand bucks a day, five thousand bucks a day, we had the $10,000 a day. But this was, we onboarded like December 20th or something. So this is like, probably late in the holiday gifting season, but like, probably near their peak. But every single day, I've done like four grand. They take a commission, they take like a wholesale fee from it and the orders go directly to you basically drop shipped. But it just blew me away that like, I'm not, this is free money. These people have to spend anyway. It's kind of like HSA or whatever. Like anyway, a little bit of love in the platform. I've been telling everybody to sign up for it. I have no deal, no affiliate, no kickback. It's just you should email them or contact them and try to get on OnGuddy. Because if you're a midsize brand that has a unique offering, it could be a hundred grand this year. Sean, we're doing it too. And thank you for sending it to me. Because that was one of the reasons. I will say this though, if you do wholesale already, it makes complete sense. Because you're used to kind of giving away that margin. If you're someone like us, that does very little of that. If you're like a pure D to C, you do need to think about the margin, right? Because if you're giving away 30 to 40 to 50%, I'm not going to give out any numbers here. And if you're like a four NER company, four NERs, 25% marketing, right? That's one of the things that we had to wrestle with to do the platform. And we're pretty unique. Because we're one of the all really rare D to companies that just doesn't really do wholesale. But I guess everyone else on that platform and probably everyone listening to us, it would be happy to kind of give that away. For us, it's a little, it's a little bit different analysis, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, Sean. - Yeah, what I would say is the flagship heck-clad bundles are not going to be good products for on Goody. And it's because, and maybe it's just called Goody and the website's on Goody. I really haven't ever talked to them. But they, under 15, under 100 of sweet spots. And the reason why I thought of you, I'm like, put the hex mills on there. That is the perfect product for this. And like, look, you guys do good with those, but it's not your flagship. And what if you could sell an extra 200,000 of these at wholesale prices? I think you would take that deal. And that's where it's like, maybe tell 'em, "Hey, we're not doing bundles." Or maybe we're only doing aprons. Aprons at 50 bucks on there would rip, and would probably be $100,000 business. So yeah, look, you have to get used to giving it margin. I think that's not a problem for a lot of people who are doing wholesale. But if, so maybe you're self-selected out of this. But it also, like, our best selling products on there is one of our worst selling products on our.com, 'cause it's under 50 bucks. And we're doing 80 grand, like, since we've launched there, we're the product that we've never really sold before. So that's just the unique thing over there. It's like, it's people who have to spend money at certain price points. And there's just not a lot of options right now. So be early, get on there, start selling stuff. That's my recommendation. Mike, Matt, what do you, any questions on that? - Well, I just a comment that I wanted to make because Jason, in contrast to you, guys, we do a lot of wholesale. In fact, you know, like, I don't know, 80 something percent of our business is wholesale because even our relationship with Amazon is a wholesale business at this point. A framing that's been really helpful to me to think about it is if we're working with a retailer and we're wholesaling it to them at 50% of retail, for example. We're giving them Keystone pricing and 50% margins. One way you could think about it is like, man, I'm leaving all this margin on the table. But another way you could think about it is just like, the retailer is an affiliate. They're doing the demand gen. And I am locking them in at an affiliate structure that is good unit economics for me. So if I sell Target a bottle for 1250 that retails for 25 and I know that I've got, you know, whatever, 30 or 40 points of margin on that sale, then it's like, yeah, like, just like I would do with the normal affiliate. It's like, go knock yourself out, sell as many as you can, target, like this is great. And this is the power of wholesale, whether it's, you know, goodie or target or whoever else, is it's really powerful when you get somebody who you know can deliver good volume at good unit economics and they're going to do all the demand gen and that they're not going to be cannibalistic to other channels. That's probably the big key. If they can deliver that volume, but it's cannibalistic, then the vacaculous changes. But basically, what I found is for us is our demand is infinite for that kind of a setup when we can find it. - Hey, you know what's important to your business? Understanding it. That's where Sarah Centellators comes in. That level of precision can only happen. If your data is rock solid and in one place where you can actually pull it from. I'm looking at my contribution margin. I'm looking at my sales breakdown, my sales by product type. And it really just starts shutting a light until like the black holes of your business. Everything is at my fingertips. Our dashboards pull in from everywhere. - I just had a set 2026 financial budgets. Sarah Centellators made that data available in four clicks compared to 40 hours. It's like AI for your business knowledge. And if you want to check out Sarah Centellators, that is S-A-R-A-S and see how daily precise data can transform your profitability. - Yeah, the only thing I'll add on there is most people aren't getting 4xMERs. So Jason, this is where you guys really are best in class. Dude, a lot of brands, especially in hard goods, you're getting like 2xMERs right now. So if they're giving up 50%, it's like either meta gets it or the whole sailor gets it. - Yeah, totally. - Yeah, it's all the same. - Good point, good point. - Matt, anything else? - No, man, I was going to say I'll pay anybody the same amount of money I pay Zuck if they get me incremental customers. So, I mean for us, it is way more consistent and way more volume and way more reliable to get it from the whole sailor them from Zuck right now. - Oh, for sure, it's revenue resilience too, right Mike? Like I think that that's a, and in a yes, run your business for profit and all that good stuff, but like at the end of the day, you still gotta think about shareholder value and enterprise value, even if you're the only shareholder and quality of revenue matters. So, yeah. - Yeah, consistency of revenue matters also. One of the things I said to my team as we were doing planning is like, guys, this year, I'm gonna take predictability and sustainability over maximizing EBITDA. Like I would much rather EBITDA be, you know, at this number, but I know it's gonna go on for the next 10 years than to be at 1.5X, that number, 1.4X, that number, but we're doing it in ways that might not be sustainable. And in everybody's business, you'll have tradeoffs like that where it's like, this is the quote-unquote profit maximization move, but it leaves opportunity. It leaves opportunity for competitor to slide in at all over price point, or it leaves an opportunity for somebody else to take some of the faceings that we've gotten in mass retail, because we're really driving for margin with that relationship or whatever else. And so, you have to make those choices as a business owner, but for me, because I'm trying to operate for a long period of time, I'm definitely willing to trade short-term margin for sustainability. And typically, in valuations business to sell for, the more sustainable your cash flows are, the bigger valuations gonna be anyway. - Oh yeah, that, Michael. Mike, give us your tip. One of your tips, how can a brand make more money right now? - Mine is so simple, it's so simple. If you're listening to this right now, there is something in your business that you're avoiding. It might be a number that you don't wanna look at, because it's gonna have a really uncomfortable truth. It may be a team change that you need to make and a conversation that you've just been delaying. It might be a hard conversation where you're challenging somebody you're setting the bar higher. It may be ending a relationship somewhere, going ahead and pulling the trigger on the thing that you've been overthinking. I don't know what it is for your business, but I know every single person listening to this, there's one thing that you have been avoiding. Just have a bias to action, take some agency and freaking do it. And it turns out that many times the ways that the things that hold our businesses back the most are the things that we know we should do and we just are not willing to do because we're scared, because it's uncomfortable or whatever else. And we've had some two examples I can think of in our business where it was like, we just, if we had just done it and kind of hugged the cactus, so to speak, then we would have been better off. But we put it off, we put it off. And then it was a bigger problem by the time it finally got dealt with. And so my biggest advice, it's not actually tactical. It's more just like kind of a general life rule of like, I know there's something in your life right now and in your business that you're putting off. And if you just bite the freaking bullet and do it right now, your business will make more money. I guarantee it. - Bro, I need that just on a repeat, playing the back like a music background, telling me to do it. - Dude, I'm not hugging any cactus as though, okay. I love that with a great line. I just wrote that down, hug the cactus. - That's so good. - But I have all those. I have conversations I have to have. I have teenagers I have to make. I have emails that are left and right. I have people I gotta fire. I got all that stuff happening. And I just, by his action, they'll get done this week. Jason, are you ready for your tip? - Yeah, yeah, I have two that I like, but all right, I was gonna do the one, the first one. I've been thinking a lot about Media Mix. And we've talked about this a lot. I think you need to like every once in a while, like really just like blank slate your Media Mix because not everyone is living online, dude. You know, they're just not. And I've realized that. And we talk about a lot on this show about Meta and at what scale you diversify out of Meta. And I know like we're really big, blah, blah, blah, but like the offline impressions are huge for your brand. And I think everyone should actually be trying to get a certain amount of offline impressions. Like Hexquad started with offline impressions. People walked past our booth in Costco, right? And then we did a deal, we did TV in airports, actually really interesting over the holidays. And it was, it was really cool. Like so many people reaching out to me. Like I'm sitting in the airport, I'm sitting the Hexquad commercial, it's going on. I think the bar is about 20 million. I think when you get to about 20 million, you're like, you just have to have a percentage of your mix in offline. And I've seen this in our non-US geographies. Like we are, we're going deep on non-US this year. This is one of the things I'm most excited about. It's like we, we've expanded globally a ton and we're doing great in a lot of these areas. And there's other areas where we know we're going to do way better this year just by really focusing on the media mix. And that's why I started thinking about this because we're talking about geographies where we're doing double digit millions, but like not nine figures. And we went through it, we did the work. And we're like, wow, we're leaving money on the table because our media mix is just not diverse enough. So I think given like what's going on with D2C in general, what's going on with like meta and online marketing that getting offline impressions earlier is a trend that I think would help people. - Super interesting. Me and Connor are at this conversation last night and it stems from a Taylor Holiday tweet. So Taylor Holiday. - I saw that. - Yeah, and you know, Taylor Holiday is basically saying that people get off of meta too early, right? He's like you're better off just focusing on a meta for almost all businesses. - That can also be true at the same time, Sean. - For sure, but here's my argument that you should get off of meta sooner rather than later because eventually a business reaches a scale where they will get off of meta, right? Like Walmart spends places everywhere. So if you get as big as Walmart, you're going to spend money everywhere. And like look, we're not the size of Walmart. But if you go down that chain, eventually you hit a point where you will get off of meta and would you rather get off meta sooner and suck at new platforms and like have to learn them and be challenged or get off meta too late. And then the trade off there is meta cacks are high and you end up giving a bunch of contribution profit because you're trying to scale something that can't scale anymore, right? And the reason why I'm in favor of getting off earlier and just sucking at those channels is because even if you get off meta too late, you're gonna suck at the channels anyway. It's just like just because you spend an extra two years only spending a meta doesn't make you get a TikTok. So it's like when you get off, when you diversify your marketing mix, you are going to have all the problems that you're always going to face. If you're doing it at a million dollars in revenue or 10 million or 100 million or a billion in revenue, you're gonna suck at it regardless. And if you wait too long, you just will inflate your own cacks over time. So Jay, can I add to that? 'Cause I think number one, Jason, I agree. I think people like us who are native social, like we spend a lot of time online, don't realize how many people don't spend as much time online, right? And I see this when you just walk around through life, especially I think it's true if you cater to a wealthier percentage of the population. They are actively being told to put down their devices from their social networks for health and wellness reasons and people are doing it. So I think that's like number one, there's a lot of value in offline, or like non-social media. Number two, I think Sean, on your get off meta earlier, I think the nuance in what that conversation needs is I don't think it's scale of revenue. I think it's quantity of customers acquired, relative to your market that you're in, your category. So like if you have acquired millions of customers on meta over a long period of time, you might not be a massive business yet, but you may be hitting the local maxima limits of what meta can do efficiently for you. So like you could be to Jason's point, a 20 or 30 million, 40 million, 50 million dollar your business, primarily spending money on meta, but you're in a category where like you've acquired four or five million customers, the next incremental customer is just really hard to get on meta. And that I would argue that you should be spending more time off meta to your point, Sean and Jason, earlier in some of those categories, actually. Yeah, and it's tuition, right? You have to learn what those platforms work and how they behave. I'm not necessarily arguing in favor of going out of home first or immediately. I'm also saying, I directly, you should get off of meta, and I think Jason's like, hey, diverse for the media mix. So. Mike, what say you? So I've got two, it takes here one is, I just did a really deep dive on Amazon's ad system. And my big takeaway from doing it is that these online systems, the bottom of funnel stuff, it is so oriented towards retargeting. It is so difficult to kind of get them off of retargeting behavior, even if they want to, and that it is just very difficult for them to be as incremental as you want them to be. And I'm increasingly just feeling like, gosh, I have got to move money up funnel. That just is a general thing. And that's kind of what you're saying, Jason, is like when you're talking about media mix, I think money's got to move up funnel. I mean, I was listening to our part one of this, Sean, and you were kind of making the point that, hey, I could be disruptive in a way where like life sports goes from 3% of GDP to 20% of GDP. And you were kind of like, you know, I think exaggerating intentionally. But it's like if we really think that AI might be disruptive in a way where it makes, you know, like real life experiences or things like that, events, things like that, more valuable than what we're really saying is that you better get ready to move up funnel, you better get ready to move from online to offline with some of your spend. And so certainly at our company, like, I'm just increasingly feeling like the push up the funnel. And then I think that your ability to reach people in unique ways with up funnel is hard to match with digital. Like we do things in football stadiums and stuff like that. That's very, very difficult to match the effect. It's just, it's a type of advertising, but it's a very different type of advertising that I think we've seen success with. And I'll give a simple kind of, I'd say, rubric, which is that if you're looking for alpha, the alpha is directly proportional to how difficult it is for competitors to get scaled up on whatever advertising situation you're spending money on. And this is the thing with Meta is it's this kind of frictionless marketplace where literally anybody in the world can sign up. And so it is just so difficult to have any alpha because you're competing against like billions of people, whereas like at University of Oklahoma football games, that's a very illiquid market. And there's a lot of room for relationships. There's a lot of room for mispricing. There's a lot of rooms to turn that into alpha with how we spend money there. And so, you know, billboards might be this way. There's a bunch of other places you can spend money where I think there's more opportunity to get alpha. And that's, so I think you're right, Jason. I think that when you start spending your kind of capacity trying to move money up funnel and move money into different places, I don't know, it kind of depends on your lifecycle as a company. But I think everybody, this is going to be something that everybody's going to be thinking more about. As Meta just gets more and more competitive, as a kind of a final note here, like one of the things I tell my team all the time, because Meta is a very frustrating experience for us. We can't really hit the metrics that we want to very often because of how our business is structured and a bunch of other stuff. But it's like, I'm like, well, what do you expect? We're competing against Ridge and Hexclad, like, and Pila. And, you know, Hexclad selling $500 sets of pots and pans. So what they can pay for a conversion and what we can pay for a conversion is so disparate. And we're in the same marketplace, competing for the same eyeballs. We're going to have to go to different places. So anyway, great point Jason, I agree. - I moved Pila Case to Ridge Panel and I want to share some numbers. So the first is CSAT, that we're well over 90% since moving. We used to actually struggle with trust pilot. Ridge Panel turned on their integration so that a lot of our customer reviews were going over to trust pilot, not just all the fake that was there. So that's a win. Other thing is our customer self-service rate is over 50%. That helps our team out so much with workload. So if you're looking to improve your customer support stats, get higher ratings on trust pilot at Google, and you want to save some money while you're doing it all, I highly recommend you book a demo with Ridge Panel. They're awesome. Head over to ridgepanel.com/demo. Also, please tell them you came from the operator's pod. Promise, it will help you. - I got two responses and then Matt, you're coming up quick, right? - Yeah, and mine flows after this. So go ahead. - On the point of, Mike, you can't get netted to work. Listen to the episode we did with Jordan from instant hydration if you haven't, 'cause he has this idea of natural cacks. - Yeah, it's so good. - And the reality is that meta has a goal that it wants to achieve for itself, and you are fighting against gravity, trying to get it to hit your goal. You need to change your business to have your goals a lot in full meta ones, right? - Yeah, and what I've learned, Sean, is that I just need to launch other businesses, because the simple-modern business is so good at what it is, I can't turn it into what meta needs it to be, and so I just need to do other businesses. If I want to do that, I'm making plenty of money with simple-modern, it's a great business, but I can't pigeonhole it into what meta wants it to be. I'm convinced, if you need customer acquisition less than $30, I just don't think meta's gonna allow you to do that consistently. - Yeah, it's not the national cack that meta wants to serve. And the second point on the relationship business, you guys all know what Killtony is? - Yeah. - Okay, so it's incredibly popular right now, and if you wanna buy a ad spot on Killtony, it's like it's a podcast for comedians, I think they're quoting 30 to 50 grand per ad spot on that show. In 2018, me and my brother really liked going to Killtony 'cause it was hilarious, and we ended up buying ads on it, and no joke, I think it was $500 in ad spot. So the audience has gotten really big, but we bought ads on Killtony for four years from 2018 to 2022, and I think we paid an average of like $2,000. So starting at $500, you're in $1,000, probably paid $2,000 at the end, and now that that spots are going for like 40 grand, and that's just like, you know, the alpha's in the relationships. It's like, yeah, if I was just going there, I'm like, I got a sponsor of this show, it's hilarious, right? And so anyway, just being early in places, finding your natural interest, and then building a relationship, that's where there's a lot of marketing alpha. But yeah. - Which is a perfect example, Sean, what you just said, because it's a podcast, there is a relational vector. There's no relational vector with meta, right? It's not like, oh, I know somebody, and we go way back, and I've spent money, and I'm getting special consideration. It's like, no, it's just some freaking algorithm. It's looking at your bid, you're quick to write, you know, whatever, and it's comparing it to everybody else. And so that's the tough thing, and these digital, completely liquid marketplaces, is there's some of these alpha vectors just don't exist? They're too efficient. All right, Matt, what's your tip, brother? - Well, on the, going further up the final comment, Mike, I think everybody who is producing a lot of ad creative should work in this idea of stage thesis. So like, the idea being that, when you make an ad, your team should have a strong hypothesis on which stage of awareness that ad is for, right? And I think this is important because we are living in an algorithmic time, right? So we just upload creative and we let meta, or Google, or whoever choose where they want to serve that ad to. I have found that the more that we think about the actual piece of creative, and which stage of awareness it's for, the more efficient and the more reach and the better our marketing machine gets, which means we just make more money. I also think this helps with the refinement of your creative muscle as an organization, right? So if you have a thesis, let's say it's like, I'm making this video and I think it's built for people who are completely unaware of my brand. I would like to test that thesis against real world data and then have that be a feedback loop for my team, right? So they can say like, hey, we were wrong. Why do we think we were wrong? Or we were right, why do we think we were right? And that that further just, that just makes you a better creative team, regardless of where you're sticking the piece of creative. So like, you can use a meta or a YouTube to give you a pretty instant feedback. But if now you've got ads that are like, genuinely proving out as like, much more top of funnel, that creative might be how you move into remnant television buys or whatever, airport TVs, urinal TVs, whatever Jason's sticking to next. I just think this is a very, very important muscle for every brand to build. - Okay, and can you unpack it a little bit more? So what it sounds like is you're just better synthesizing and understanding what the creative is achieving? - Yeah, and it's also like, and simple as this, it's literally name it in your ad, like in your ad naming conventions. So like put the thesis state, like your stage of awareness thesis, in the ad name, so that you can easily report on it. So like when you pull your data out of meta and you see an ad that was tagged as like unaware, did it actually go and get you incremental, like new reach? Like was it-- - So what you're saying is that that drives the metrics of that you're using to evaluate its efficacy? - Yeah, like you're not wanting to evaluate that ad based on Roaz, for example, you're looking at how long people looked at it, awareness changes, things like that. - Yes, yes, it's adding a bit of science to the creative process. - Okay, Beth, that is an interesting tip. I'm gonna shoot this over to the marketing operators Connor, my CML, and make sure he's thinking about who we actually reach in. But I know he loves his name in conventions. We're trying to deliver practical tips that'll make you more money immediately. This is a tip I've said about a billion times. I'm gonna say it again, send more plain text emails. (laughing) So you're getting high-level shit from Matt, you're gonna get some low-level shit for me. - It's so true though. (laughing) I put it in here, sign up for cuts emails. So Stephen from Cuts, friend of the pod, he's been on here a couple times. He does a great job. I told him this in Q4 and he just embraced the hell out of it. And he sends a great update. So he sends like, hey, we have a new collection coming out. Hey, here's what's happening with me and my brand right now. Like, he just, he treats it basically like a newsletter. And he has great, beautiful design emails in there. He has emails driving to apps, he has deal emails. But he hits these plain text emails probably once a week. And it's like, that's where the money's being made. So they should come from the founder, they should come from the CX team. You know, at Ridge, we're co-owned by MKBHD. So we make MKHZ send plain text emails to people. - We're still smart. - Yeah, and you know, I'm sure Jason has Gordon do the same thing. It's like an email from Gordon goes a long way to your list, like explaining, you know, the why, the how, maybe giving a recipe out there. - But for the holidays, we're like, hey, MKHZ is like, hey, I have to buy gifts for my dad and my best friend and my brother-in-law. So I'm gonna buy these three things from Ridge.com and here's why I'll buy these things. And money just pours in guys, cold emails. - I love this, Sean. Sean, you know why I love this? Because here's the reason why it works. Like you read it, you people read it. You know, when I get Steve's emails, I'm like, wait, did Steve just send me an email? But like really, it's like, you know, when it's something that's in plain text, it just catches you because you're not sure it's a marketing email. So it's like, oh, wait, I actually didn't just ignore it. So people are just like, the less likely to ignore it. - Yeah, it's great. It's a higher chance that it's gonna land in the normal inbox, not the promotional inbox. But just imagine, hey, a note from Norton or a quick message from Gordon, right? Or like any of that type of stuff. Would just people would eat that up. They'd be like, oh, so Gordon Rampey's trying to talk to me. I gotta open this email. So if you want to make more money right now, just AB test it, send a couple plain text emails, money's gonna pour in. - Well, and let me ask this question to clarify, is what makes these work that it seems like it's coming from a person more than the company? They're like, oh, Gordon sent me an email or Steven cut sent me an email or whatever. - Well, here's what works. It has higher deliverability. It shows up in people's inboxes. - Yeah, that didn't get spam filtered or you know, put in marketing or whatever, yeah. - Yeah, so it has higher deliverability, also it has higher open rights. And then people just, it's very easy to tune out a bunch of images. They do actually read the text. Like, oh, what is this guy trying to say to me right now? It has that personal touch. We're all found our own businesses. It's like, don't send emails like Walmart. But I think that's a good tip for everybody. Walmart's worth $500 billion or whatever. Like maybe send emails more like you're a small business 'cause that's what you are. So that's what I like. - That's a money tip, that's a great tip. - It's so easy too. It's so easy to do that. - This episode is brought to you by our friends at NorthBeam. NorthBeam just dropped something game-changing called clicks plus deterministic views. Traditional one-day click attribution is completely skewed towards bottom of funnel campaigns. Your TikTok and CTV ads are building awareness, driving engagement, lifting overall revenue, but your dashboard says they're doing nothing. Clicks plus deterministic views actually shows you which ad impressions drove conversions. Not guesses, you'll know which channels are really moving the needle and which ones are just taking the credit. And yeah, the biggest brands are already using it. Go to NorthBeam.io/demo to book a demo and tell them that we sent you. Here's the principle, the principle is simple. The technology tools are so good at this point that the thing that most needs to change is you have to rewire the software in your team's brains more than you need better software and better tools that you have access to. The tools are already so much better than you. And so you need to right now be doing things to actively rewire the way that you think about work and the way that your team thinks about work. And it will almost immediately translate into making more money, but you have to be a forcing function here. You can't just let, you just can't tell people, like hey, it's important that we really know what's going on because they're just gonna keep thinking the way that they've always thought. The way that our brains work, more or less, I'm convinced with smart people, is that smart people like say, okay, here's a problem and here are all my constraints. And now I'm gonna creatively kind of find goal-seek what I can do to create a good outcome with this problem in the set of constraints. And the really big problem that a bunch of smart people are running into right now is that you've grown up in a world where you've developed a bunch of dogma around constraints that's just no longer true. A lot of the constraints that you thought existed in the world and that you had to kind of work around with how you ran your business. They're just not constraints anymore. You just haven't reconsidered them. And this is where forcing yourself, forcing your team to sit down and just play with the technology and to dream is actually the key step. I'm starting to become convinced. You know, like I hear cloud code is out. I'm like, I don't know that I really do anything with cloud code. When I force myself to sit down, I start to be like, well, maybe I could start on this path. And then, oh, well, actually now that I can do that, I could do this thing over here. And then all of a sudden, like there was a moment where it's like, whoa, okay, wait a second. The world opened up. So really simple example. If you're running a business, you want to know what your competitors are doing. So if you think about the way that we keep track of our competitors in most businesses, it's actually a fairly ad hoc and imperfect system, right? It's like, well, maybe somebody in the Slack post, hey, so-and-so, drop this new design and maybe somebody else says, hey, I saw so-and-so on, you know, in-cap at Walmart and they post a picture. But it's very imperfect, very ad hoc, not systemic, not summarize none of that stuff. Imagine this with cloud code. What can you do? I can set up an email address. I can sign up to every single one of my competitors emails where it gets every email from them and it clicks on every email. And then I can devise a little agent that goes and every single day summarizes all of those emails and boom, pushes it to Slack. And everybody in my team knows exactly the most important things that happen in all my competitors emails yesterday. Takes me 30, 45 minutes to design that and now have perfect knowledge about that. Okay, so take that kernel of an idea and just multiply it times a thousand. Every vector of information that you could ever want in running your business, you can now get at one one thousandth of the cost and effort. And you can disseminate it across your organization almost immediately. And so I can literally, if I invest myself in the technology, I can literally know everything my competitors are doing when they're doing it and have a system that filters through all that and makes sure that I know the stuff that matters exactly when I need to know it and that everybody on my team knows it. And that's just like an example. Before I couldn't do that, that wasn't resource efficient, that wasn't really reasonable to say that we were gonna have that level of omniscience about what's going on with our competitors and you can do that with everything. You can do that with pricing, the market, what's going on with whatever. So, but what you have to do is you really have to kind of force yourself and your team to play with these tools. And then you have to sit down like and you have to define problems really well, which is what I've learned. So I have to kind of sit down and say like, "Well, what are all the pieces of information I look at? What are all the decisions I make in a week? What are all the things I do?" And then I have to kind of start to say like, well, how could some of these things map to technology in ways that I haven't thought of before? And my experience personally is that it's been pretty mind-bidding because I'm realizing like I'm the bottleneck now. Like I'm just, I'm trying to do so many things the way that the world used to work and it doesn't work that way anymore. My advice to everybody is we are going to be instituting an afternoon where everybody just has to be using AI. We have built an internal AI app builder marketplace where people can do it and we have a leaderboard and they can and we can see how many hours your apps are being used and there will be rewards and things like that. So I think the really tangible thing is you really just have to start setting aside time where you're just forcing people to interact with it. And as you do, you're gonna see that they're gonna start to get quite a bit better a lot quicker. And then personally from like a personal management level, you need to really define all the things you do in a day and you need to think critically about how many of those can be programmatically improved and what you'll come to pretty quickly is just about all of them. - A lot of information in there on where the world's going. - I'll tell you one thing, I made a presentation yesterday last night that I didn't touch the computer for, right? So just speak out into cloud, explaining what I wanted to do, explaining all the different goals, the things we're trying to achieve in this internal meeting. And what had put out was an amazing, beautiful word doc presentation with everything structured perfectly in no errors. And that is just crazy with the world's going. So I've had the exact same experience, Sean. I had been doing this work on some Amazon ad stuff with Trevi. I was driving back from dropping my kids off at school. I pulled up chat GPT and I put it in the audio interaction mode and I just said, "Hey, I want to draft a memo. "I want you to help me with it. "I'm gonna talk for three or four minutes "and then I want you to ask questions "and I want you to turn into a memo." I spent, it probably took me 10 minutes while I'm driving. And I literally just talked and answered some questions and then it drafted a great memo and then boom, copy paste, drop it and slack and a bunch of channels. And now I've communicated, not only do I have more clarity of thought than I would have had if I typed it out, but I've communicated that idea across the entire team. And I did it during a period that usually I would have just been doing nothing listening to a podcast. - And you guys said we weren't doing AI today. Look at this. By the way, you know what ChatsyPd did for me? It created the entire lighting plan for my home renovation in Carmel Valley. Like that's, I'm now learning about how to build properties. - Yeah, we just, we just bought a lot next to our house and that's exactly the thought that I had Jason is that I'll use AI to design this thing from the ground up. - You should see how much like the construct, my construction schedule, like every room, what I need, it's all being done. So like I'm able to talk to my contractor intelligently and move things along. I'm project managing this thing, it's so much fun. You want me to go Sean? - Yeah, dude, you're on third base. - All right, I love it. - I can't, what's that? - I love it. So last one was marketing related. This one will be more operations related. I'm really proud of what we've done operationally over the last few years. We've really built a like world class operations team. And a lot of that is thanks to two of our sponsors actually, fulfill and Sarah's analytics. And this is, it's true, I was thinking about like, where do we make money or save money this year? And just our overall like distribution strategy, having distribution centers in the right places and having inventory in the right distribution centers at the right time has been a massive unlock, like millions in profit this year. And it's, we use fulfill to manage our inventory. And then we use Sarah's analytics to pull data and make decisions. We actually use fulfill to pull data and make decisions too because they had some good AI in there. But you know, I was just talking to my head of ops. And it's like the numbers are pretty incredible. Just by really focusing and dialing in on like that operational component, where is all your inventory going to be? Having it in the right place at the right time. And we were really bad at this years ago. I remember, you know, we probably, 2021, a couple million dollars like that. We wasted by having to move stuff around and not having in the right spot. So like really investing in this area for the long term to me is a tip. Like if you're building a sustainable business and file this under the category of know your numbers, which I talk about all the time. Well, like this is just, I think this is like a level of operational excellence that that we've achieved by investing in the areas that we need to invest and like really focusing on it. Do totally, I mean, to add some more to that, they look, a lot of brands have one node, one warehouse to ship out of because it's easier, right? The problem is where you're going to put that node. Typically put it in your backyard. And unless you are based in Missouri, there's just not a very good one node location in America, right? Kentucky's pretty okay. People say Pennsylvania's pretty okay. Some people say Salt Lake City. But like all of them will have trade-offs where you end up going. The package goes too far to reach current customers. It's going to take a long time. It's going to cost you a couple extra dollars. So then people go multi-node, right? And you can save a lot of money multi-node. But then the worst thing to ever happen is split shipments. You lose so much money if you have to ship one thing from node A and one thing from node B. Because there's no way to get around that. It's going to cost you an extra eight dollars. And if you split shipments take up more than 2% of all your orders, you've just lost all the efficiencies of being multi-node, right? The second worst thing that could happen is if you have to have someone touch a package twice. So you ship it into node A to receive it. And then, oh, actually, it should be at node B. You then break it on half and you ship it over to node B. You've just done the most expensive thing ever, which is pay human labor to touch a package that didn't need to be touched. And what Jason's saying is, by being on top of your data, you can avoid all of that. Eventually, everyone goes multi-node, you have to. And then, never split ship, fulfill, there's analytics, understand where inventory's going to be, and help you get ahead of that. Jason, am I summarizing that correct for you? I love it. Yeah, thank you for making it better. That's what I do here on the operator's podcast, making it better for everybody every day. There's more subscribers and more subscribers equals more cash. List growth isn't about getting numbers up. It's getting fires in. They have AI-powered SMS, instant conversions. Post-script auto optimizes for profit is building for the modern industry to take into account all these ever-changing laws. Brands are winning at SMS via Post-script. So if you want to try SMS like the pros, like Rich, check out Post-script today. Thank you guys for being here. All right, Matt, you have take us home. What is the second tip to make more money right now? Inevitably, if you're a D to C brand, most of your traffic or sales are coming from meta, Google, whatever, it's eventually you're going to turn on other markets. You're going to turn Canada on. You're going to turn Australia on. You're going to turn the UK on probably first, because those are English. Then you're going to go into the rest. My God, have we got wins from just pricing new markets for the market? So we are used to a certain margin percentage profile, gross margin percentage profile in the USA. I make a less, less gross margin percentage in other markets by pricing those markets appropriately, but more total profit by doing that. And we have tested this. Matt, I love this. Yes, Matt, I love this. This is so true. Yep, it's like, and I had to live in the same market too, Matt. It's just like a principle of like, the more you try and make one thing spread across a bunch of things, it will not be optimized for anything. Yeah, it's just, it's much harder, Mike, to price channels in one market because of conflict. Whereas more other markets, like I don't have any channel conflict in most of my European markets with carriers or retailers, right? So we used a tool to run like pricing tests in these markets and just measure straight up profit. We made some pretty dramatic price changes in these markets too. And the total price up or down, Matt down, down, like especially like going from the USA as a predominant, or USA Canada is our like two big ones, and then moving into UK or EU, we just can't price the same there. Yeah, in a sense, with a richest market, of course, like people can't twice the corresponding price. Right. So like you have half the spending power in the EU, and then we looked at like competition and what are people used to spending? And then we just said like, okay, let's do like dramatic things. Let's price, like I think one of the test we ran was like, let's literally price at half of what we sell in the US. Same offer, but like price half, more profit, like actually more profit hit the bottom line. So I just think that we get a little sort of focused on our own backyard. And if you are going to expand markets, you should think about the consumer in those markets and that they are not American fantastic tip that we've seen a similar thing. And like you just look at your competitors. If you have European based competitors, they will have a lower price in Europe and they do in the US. And that lower European price will include that. It'll include. Yes. And what it, what it comes from is it's like, you know, you can love, you can love Europe, you can love all the stuff got on over there, the disposable income is lower in every market besides America, like America is the richest country on earth, 100%. We love buying. So I think that's a great tip. And actually Mike taught me this. There's certain price points out there where 20% decrease leads to 40% more volume, right? I think what Mike was talking about, you know, 35 versus 29 or something. And it's like, look, if you get 29, you're getting 40% more volume out of that thing than if it's a 35 or there's some natural price points out there, Mike, I don't know if you want to show that. Well, the thing that we've really learned is that, you know, it's kind of interesting, Sean, because you taught me like an inverse principle, but they're based on the same basic understanding, which is the price that you can charge is highly contextualized to the other thing that the customer will see at the moment that they're looking at that offer, right? So if they're on Ridge.com, like they're nominal dollars that they're being asked to pay matters to some extent, but it's blunted a little bit by the fact that they don't have a frame of reference for like what other kind of comparable products might charge. And so you have more pricing power. But if you're on a shelf at Target, and it's like, here's our black tumbler, and right beside it is somebody else's black tumbler, and right under that is somebody else's black tumbler, then they're going to be incredibly observant of price points. And so like we've seen in situations like that, it's like, hey, if you're at, like let's say we're sitting on a shelf, and we're at $2,999, and but there's another similar looking tumbler at $2,499 right next to us. It literally might be the difference between $2,999 and $2,499 is $3,000, because you literally just like, there's just some kind of like competitive function where it's like, well, I guess I can't consider that because I see these alternatives right here. Whereas we could sell it just fine on Amazon at that price. So this is the reason why each channel markets and channels have optimal price points because the competitive dynamics are always different in them. And I think the way that I would expound on Matt's advice, which I think is great advice, is that to the extent that you're able to customize your pricing for the particular selling situation that you're in, the more effective you're going to be. Sometimes, like in the US, we have to make concessions because it's like, hey, this product is really popular. Everybody wants it. We're selling it in an Amazon target Walmart, and we just got to kind of find the best mixture, the best price that hits the three channels the best. But we're increasing it like, man, when we can sell different products in different channels, we want to do that. And then when you get to different markets, I think it's just compounded. Jason, any response to the pricing tip? I just love, I love what you're saying. Like I'm actually going to go deep on, I was just texting someone on my team about international because we've been just like, this is an area of extreme focus for us this year. And you know, it's just in pricing in general, I always meet people that say that, you know, all I would love to buy your stuff, but it's just so expensive, and I'm always thinking about like, how do we, how do we do that? Of course, we've got to convince people the reality that this is an investment. If buying a hex nut is an investment in it lasts a lifetime. And that's why we have a lifetime warranty and all those things. But there's just like always people that can't afford it. I don't know how to solve that problem, but it's something that I've been thinking about. And we do have to, there has got to be some solutions out there and some kind of way to do it. But I think that's, dude, this is a great episode. I learned a lot today. Totally great episode. On the price framing piece before we wrap it up, go to the, so look, if you're into cars, you know these things inherently, but go to people in your life who aren't in cars and ask them, what's more expensive? Like a Porsche, a Lamborghini, Ferrari, a Bugatti, a Conexig. You name these things out there. And a Conexig is $2 million minimum to get into one, right? Bugatti's are like the cheapest one you can probably buy is $800 grand. And then, you know, you can get a Porsche like $85,000, but like, and it's, and what this is, is that like, there's all of these different price buckets throughout there, but like, they're like, oh, there's your luxury cars. And inside those luxury cars, there could be a world of difference. And that's just because people don't actually have a frame of reference pricing where treat your website sort of like people don't have a frame of reference of pricing. And when you get to channels like Amazon or Target or Walmart, they will have a ton of frame of reference of pricing because all the prices are in front of them. So we talked about this, by the way, you were like, you know, just, just price them different. You could just price your website different than, than Amazon and, and Costco and, and anywhere else, right? Like that because there's very little, the very little, there's much less price comparison shopping than, than we probably think there is. Do you still have that opinion? Your website to your playground, you can do it over you want, but once you go to somebody else's playground, it just gets way more competitive. And it's like, the example is, you know, if you're on the Conexig website, they're going to convince you that it's worth $2 million, right? They're like, look at this beautiful experience you're going to get or whatever. But if you're on cars and bids, a cars auction website, you're going to see it right next to a Toyota for 14 grand. And it's like, it's very hard to have all of the prestige of a $2 million car when it's been so nice to a $14,000 car. So that is the Walmart of the world. That's the Amazon. That's the target. Your website is your playground. You should price it however you want and you should make it as special as you want. All right. This was an amazing episode of the operator's podcast episode 149. We'd like to thank our sponsors, we'll talk, we'll go and reverse order, Revo, Rich panel, Sarah San elitx, Northbeam, fulfill, post script. Those are the sponsors of this podcast. Thank you for being here. What you've noticed in this episode is shorter ads. So we're bringing you less ads, but you should still love the sponsors the same. Go sign up for our newsletter, go join e-commerce fuel and talk to people over there because it's a great e-commerce community. You can follow us on Twitter, you can like this, you could subscribe this, you could comment to make sure that we're not doing this podcast for nobody out there. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being a part of it. Thank you, Mike, Jason Nat, part two is in the books. Goodbye. Later, boys.