#8: Justine Benanty — The Courage to Love

we're often taught that love is something we find, a person, a partnership, a destination, something that finally arrives when the timing and circumstances are right. What if love is less about finding the one and more about how we meet everyone? In this episode of The Embodied Masculine, I sit down with Justine Bonanti for a conversation about becoming more available to life and to love. Justine shares her relationship with phone addiction, creating more space from technology, and a 10-day silent retreat that deepened her spiritual path. We talk about devotion to men and loving without attachment. We explore sexuality and family healing, along with a broader idea of soulmates that extends beyond romantic partnership. We also look at the importance of friendship and community in a culture that so often puts romantic love at the center of everything. This is a conversation about presence, self-love, and the ripple effects that become possible when we choose love again and again. This is The Embodied Masculine. I'm Joe Lam. Let's get into it. The biggest gift I've ever given myself is when I went on a 10-day silent retreat. There was absolutely zero temptation and ability to look at anything but myself. I literally couldn't even look at myself because there were no mirrors. In fact, I myself very confronted for different reasons with that actually one thing. It was really wild. Really, really wild experience. Yeah, I bet. Was that recently? Where was that? Years ago, over New Year's, and if I could spend every New Year's in silence on a retreat like this, Joe, I would be a happy Canberra for the rest of my life. It was the sweetest thing I've ever done. Yeah. It was Adam Azunte at a spiritual yoga center called Radaya, which means spiritual heart in Sanskrit. The whole process will make sense the way that I frame it. I had been in this period of long burnout, a community building straight for six straight years, socializing to the max extent, and then I hit a wall so hard. I felt like a Mack truck hit me in both directions, and I was like, "Okay, where can I go? Silent retreat. Let me just get to that moment." I get there and instead of just getting this gift of silence and presence with myself, I got this validation of this practice that I've been doing at that point for eight years of this what I call heart scholar academia, learning about the heart, and learning about spiritual heart, and I just been doing it ad hoc using different methodologies and modalities that I picked up along the way, but there was this spiritual tradition at the yoga center kind of putting it all in one place, and I felt, "Yeah, I use the word validating," because I was like, "Okay, there's something to this," and I just haven't made it up. The practice was around different philosophies throughout history, different organized religions, different version of the spirituality, all around love, and unconditional love, and divine love, and truly the most beautiful thing I've ever encountered from how do I grow myself and connect a spirit moment to highly recommend. Well, that's amazing. What remind me, where is the space? I didn't get the city enough to connect into a country. Oh, in Mesinté, down in Mexico. Mexico, okay. Yeah, and so because it was on New Year's, obviously we were in silence the whole day, but every time someone or a country would technically be hitting New Year's or like midnight in their country, my teacher would whisper half the New Year and list the countries that were hitting midnight at that moment, and we would just send a moment of loving kindness from our meditation towards that country, and if you knew people there, it was even more special because you could like, direct it at them specifically, and it was just, yeah, so sweet. And if every New Year started with that love, love, and celebration, with inner peace as well as, you know, outer peace, yeah, it was really special. Which set me up exactly right for the LA fires a few days later when I came out of it. So that was the moment of like, have you learned your lessons? Can you exercise and practice and be present and still grounded? So what a testing moment. Yeah. Well, back to that retreat. It's such a different experience of let's get really drunk in a bar or let me put on an adult diaper and go to Times Square where you're kind of like this because there's so many fucking people and I literally, there's no bathrooms. Oh, my God, I've never heard of it that must be a thing like people must hate. I have not personally worn an adult diaper and so I can't speak to that. But I've definitely heard of people doing that for because of this huge scale. Sure. They can't leave. Yeah. And how long they must have to wait there? Yeah. I mean, I grew up in the city as you know and New York City and you could not pay me enough money in the world to ever go near Times Square and New Year's Eve. I just don't personally love crowds. I went to the Obama inauguration in 2008 when I was living in DC and while I was an incredibly historic moment, I felt really contained and trapped by the amount of people that were behind this barricade with me. And I just never want to replicate something like that again. So feel safer, you know, back-of-house as they say. That's a really special retreat. And at the end of the year, sometimes there's a lot of expectation and pressure to do stuff. Clubs, parties, shows, concerts at that, you know, the New Year's event. And so the, and yet it's a dark time and it can feel like a reflective time and a point of transition in the calendars. I love that. That's a beautiful way to, you know, kind of close chapter over. Yeah, and I feel like there's a lot of, or I'll speak for myself, in my past iterations of life, there's this dissatisfaction with potentially like other parts of my year. And so there's like this desire to wrap it up in a way that like feels meaningful. And then simultaneously start it in a way that, quote unquote, feels meaningful, which is like how people go down rabbit holes of, you know, their checklist for the year and like my goal of losing X amount of weight this month and no drinking January and things like that, which is like they're all admirable and super desirable, you know, depending on who you are, what your goal is. And imagine if we kind of extended that vision throughout the year, like how can I wake up every day and feel an alignment with my choices. And not like this is the month I'm doing this thing versus like what are the steps I might need to take and iterate on to make this part of my practice every day. So more of a reflective chapter than a resolutions can sometimes feel binding or, I don't know, they seem, they seem sometimes I'm constrictive in the way that there's like, it's very much outward focus too. It's like lose 35 pounds, get a promotion, find a partner, like, I don't know, I think a lot of resolutions tend to be outward focus at least if I think about the times that I've set and they set an expectation for potential faster failure, quote unquote, failure, you know, because if we don't do X, that means we failed, right? Because it was like such a big goal versus again, I think these sort of like more smaller increments of who was the person I want to be? How is it I want to show up, you know, both for myself and for the people in my life, for my work, what are my passions, et cetera. And like, how do I become that person through potentially smaller steps that feel like much more achievable and like long term effective than this like story we're sold of, you know, it was more of a marketing play, frankly, I would say. So Jim memberships perhaps? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, Black Fridays, you know, whatever, get it well taught. Yeah, products you probably don't need. Yeah, yeah, well, just as a general reflection, I'm just so great to chat. Today, I'm excited to have you here on this, this novel, interesting podcast inquiry of mine that I'm not sure what episode this will be eight or nine or something like that. I got one or two more in the queue and I wanted to, I had a lot of things I was curious to pick your brain at today, but maybe just to start with a general question, like what is it that Pete, you're interested about this topic? Hmm, well, for me, I mean, personally, I love worshiping like with my heart, with my mind, with my energy, men in general, like the masculine energy, and even more so men who have embodied that like throughout, you know, spirit, mind, body, it's making me feel like I'm blushing at the same time because like what a thing to say out loud, which is really interesting. And at the same time, I feel like in devotion to that energy because the men in my life over the last, you know, well, for sure, my dad, but like progressively over the last 10 years have shown up in ways that I never believed men could show up for me, both for themselves, you know, and for my community at large. And I feel really grateful to be in service both in how I can be like a partner and a friend And a leader, you know, by example, from their example. So that was what intrigued me about this. And I've always thought that, you know, you're a very creative, introspective and really thoughtful human. And so I imagine this particular space, it would be really interesting to talk about it, you know, things we both have a synergy on. Thank you for that. Yeah. I've had you will be my likely second female guest in the Vaca, which has been an honor. And I don't know if you've heard the previous episode I had with Laura, but she uses concept to be. Oh, great, great, okay, good. Yeah, she seems like a kindred spirit. If we, I'm sure we'll touch on some community building and this, the kind of the beauty of community today. But she uses word of being an ally to men. And of course, that word is used in LGBTQIA spaces. And also, it came through in your comments just now of like how there is both an admiration. And also I'm interested in the blushing. Like, what is it about the, is it, is it a, what was that feeling if you could get in touch with what that was about? Yeah, it's a great question. I think there's a vulnerability actually in, or for me, I'm feeling of vulnerability and sharing this devotion that I have to men. Because I'm also, I would consider myself, I would consider, I am bisexual. And I've always felt in some ways like not queer enough to use the word queer, because I always felt sexually attracted to women. But never felt like I was going to bring one home to meet my parents, so to speak, like the beautiful souls that are women. And the irony of that statement being my non-romantic life partner who we've been together for eight years is a woman. And she's come home with me many times. And so it's been this like, you know, very long journey of kind of reconciling those things. And I would say I'm definitely hetero romantic. And so there is a vulnerability for me sort of declaring out to the universe, which you know, I think you know, based on her history of like what I would desire in partnership and sort of like that next chapter of my life and the types of partnerships that I've, you know, been in throughout, you know, my years in interest in that space. And also desire to start a family. And so it's kind of like saying all those pieces out loud feels collectively vulnerable in a public way, you know. Yeah, I get that. And thanks for elaborating. It is a weird time as at least in my conversation with Laura. And maybe this is part of your own, I don't know if hesitance is what I'm tuning into there of just like, it's hard to root for men right now. Like in a time in society where manosphere toxic masculinity I could go on. There's a lot of ickyness out there that also feels like as someone, yeah, I don't know if that's part of what you're getting at, but it's something that I feel even just talking about masculinity feels like there's a part of me that's it's just like it's so fraught. Yeah. It's so messy right now. And there's like so much, yeah, I don't know. I feel like there's so much that's also layered in modern masculinity that feels so confusing and upside down. And I don't know if that how you relate to any of that, but it's part of what I feel like this would make this topic so complex. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I feel like for me, it's the opposite that I will be viewed as someone who's not a female ally or, you know, other gender ally if I'm like declaring my allegiance somehow to men, men that I love because I feel, you know, I I hear you and there is all of those things. And, you know, I feel that this is a very privileged statement to say out loud, but like that is not my experience with men at least not in the last 10 years. For sure, I've felt that before my old, you know, world is an academic so so conflicting, so so much like the comparison of like people who are your friend, but also like rampant sexual harassment in the same conversation, you know, like how do you reconcile those things? And I just haven't had that experience. So like I said, I feel so blessed to continue to find my spaces or find myself in spaces with aligned humans just in general that that's really just not present. And I recognize that that is not the norm. So, yeah. Why do you, why do you think that is? Like, is that good fortune? Like, what are the choices that you're making that have led you to be not surrounded by toxic assholes, which is my interpretation of that? That's a great question. I think, well, I think part of it is, I mean, so, okay, there's a few parts of it. One is word, and this is actually maybe an interesting space to start. For me, word choice and language is so important. And which I've learned, you know, only even over the last five years or so, like what, it's abracadabra, right? Like the Hebrew word, like we speak therefor I create, it's literally creating magic with our words. And so the reality that surround us is everything that we've shared. And so if I continue to say out loud, you know, men are toxic and assholes and this and that, like all these sort of like negative qualities and attributes, then who am I going to consistently find myself around? Men who are those things? And if I say instead, men are so communicative and committed and they want the best for me and they want to protect me and etc, etc. Who am I finding myself around? Those types of men, you know, I have a mantra set every morning that's like about 20 mantras that I say to myself. And sometimes I don't fully believe them. And sometimes I'm like every moment I'm like getting a rush of energy through myself because they feel so believable and so embodied. And some of them are about, you know, myself and men and my relationship with men and partnership and all those things. And so I really do believe that sort of like embodying this energy of what we share out makes such a difference in our reality. So that's one piece of it. And I think just generally who I've learned to become and discovered about myself and who I surround myself with and how I've learned and continued will continue to learn for the rest of my life how to learn to love unconditionally and my practice of sharing love in the world and creating it around me, you know, I think finding myself in spaces where I can both help others unlock that for themselves and have them help it grow more in me through different, you know, like different types of relationships like of any kind really. You know, one practice that is recent actually for me but I think is relevant here is, you know, this concept of for talking about romantic partnerships like the one when I find that incredibly problematic, the like one person that a billion people does like your thing. I believe in multiple soulmates. In fact, I've met at least four of them in this lifetime of all, you know, types of people. And you know, when I used to walk into a room, for example, I think a lot of people do this probably like we scan the room and we say who here could be my person like if you don't have your partner already, right? Like we've all kind of done that cursory scan of like this person but on this person. Instead, what's been really helpful for me is the person I'm talking to like right now, you show, you are my person. And I say that like so actively in my mind. And if I'm finding myself in spaces where like the people in front of me or someone like I can, you know, just like have this like deep love for, then that's going to like continue to permeate through the rest of my life. And so, yeah, I feel very honored that you're my person in this moment. You know, like so deeply honored. And I love you so much, you know, it's great. We get to share the space together. And so yeah, I think that those types of choices and learnings and ways of viewing the world that I continue to learn really helped shape, you know, both how I show up and then who continues to show up around me and the spaces, you know, I use the word wizard world and muggle world but use whatever words resonate matrix not matrix, you know. And that's also not to say one or the other is better or worse. It's more just like how people view the world feels really different. And, you know, for me, it's two buckets, but there's also spectrum, of course, nothing is broken weight. And so, yeah, I think that's probably like a good summation of how that shows up for me. So much good stuff in there. Have you have you heard this quote? I'm going to paraphrase it that we don't see the world as it is. We see it as we are. I mean, maybe that the actual, I think it's like we don't see things as they are. We see things as we are. I like that one better. Yeah. I think the second one's maybe the correct word in there. Yeah. I don't think I've heard it, but it reminds me of, you know, the sort of like what like we all we have there are masks, you know, because it's whoever you're meeting is actually showing the reflection of who you are to that person. Like who is the true self? Like actually going back to radaya and the spiritual silent retreat, spiritual heart retreat, the question they always ask in the meditation and come back to the practices who am I? You know, this question of like who am I? And so the person that you're receiving right now, you know, as authentic as I try to be and it actually don't even believe in the word try because you're either prioritizing it or you're not. The authentic version I believe I'm being with you and on always is still technically different than how you know this other friend might see me or somebody else that I meet out in the wild, you know, so who is who am I? Yeah, it can get kind of heady and abstract, but there is something really important in what you're saying that I'm resonating with and I shared that quote because it does feel so important to whether those the morning intentions and manifestations and things that you're saying, you know, our thoughts do become a reality in a way and that's maybe that sounds kind of hand wavy or hazy. That's not to me. Okay, okay, I'm making sure that's landing. Maybe somebody less than sex magic to do that exact thing. Yeah, perhaps somebody less than more of a skeptic on that comment, but I'm glad you get it. And so that the power of the mind to create kind of like the types of experiences or relationships or back to my original question, types of people are men that you would like, you know, that surround yourself with that feel so critical and also so invisible. And I think the scanning technique you described like being in the room and that kind of I've sometimes described this like the terminator vision of like looking through to see like who's my type physically or someone. Sure, who do I want to talk to and that is so different. It's such an outward lens to versus this more inward intention based and like how that creates such a different. Yeah, the energy of that feels so different like the therapist wants to describe this to me of like kind of like leaning forward energy versus like kind of like that, right. That's like this grasping and just like kind of like more outward orientation to like looking for something out there, which really requires that inner clarity in the inner intention, the inner mindset that is all part of what you're describing. And actually in that moment, yeah, I'm glad in that moment exactly that you're describing when you're like doing that sort of terminator scan. Another thing that I've learned how to do is and this came from a number of examples of experiences in my life, but when I'm scanning now I'm scanning for who in this room is going to change my life and whose life am I going to change. Versus again, that sort of like lists one might run through like if you're at a networking event, maybe like this is who's going to be my next CEO or whatever it doesn't always have to be about romantic partnerships, of course, but like that question of like who can be versus like who can I serve. And who can serve me potentially, you know, like in a way that's like super meaningful, however that ends up manifesting. So interesting reframe to very powerful for me. Yeah, I think that's why I don't like traditional networking events because they feel very transactional for sure. And you know, I saw something on Instagram recently and they acknowledge that all the heads of the major AI house AI houses, so like Google X AI and like anthropic or all burners. It's like, yes, yeah. And I was like, huh, that's interesting to think about like it's such it's not like a networking event per se, but it is a place where you can make relationships, which then like that isn't that what networking it's best is, it's not like me scanning the room to see who's going to be getting to get me a job. Right, it's not like leading with it's that that that's kind of the leaning forward energy back to my therapist versus I'm just going to be in existence in this space and. Yeah, like you're free for free fam it feels so much bigger than like changing a life could be so much more profound than like can you put my resume in. Totally and like that could be something as little as giving the right person a smile and they were really struggling that day for whatever you know someone cut them off whatever it is and it just like puts a smile back on their face and that alone can change someone's day right. So when I say like change their life doesn't mean like they just won the lottery necessarily but like a small change of like internal framing can be really life survey and I can think of a few examples for my life yeah so. I think it's important to always be thinking about how can we be in love and service to that because love can can show up in so many different ways. Do you feel like it's easy to make friends and new connections. That would be great question for me Joe because I spent the majority of my life so 38 probably 30 years not knowing what it felt like to truly belong or feel like I was part of like one group of humans that really saw me. So I went up with one best friend in a you know burst grade through eighth grade 10 kids and still it was like five girls and five boys and I still had one best friend and there was the popular girls of three and just in and cream. And so I always was somehow still like on the outside but even in a group as small as that and I became someone who could like hop between crews really easily because it meant that no one could reject me enough like if they got to know me. They would they couldn't reject me based on like who I truly was because I was always kind of like the weird one or like you know the kid who just had too many too much imagination potentially even though of course like that's something I ultimately desire. And so I remember it's such a specific example but I remember watching the very first avatar movie if you remember what it's about they have this phrase throughout the movie it's like or throughout the series it's really important where they say I see you it's like one of the. No these ways of like I love you right but like I see you and I remembered going with my boyfriend and college to see this movie and hearing that phrase and telling him what does that mean but I and I also knew immediately that I'd never felt it before. And I wanted it so badly like I wanted it more than I'd ever wanted anything and yet I spent the majority of my life avoiding that very feeling because I was so afraid of being hurt. And rejected ultimately in friendship and otherwise and then when I turn 30 after my grandma pass and I was her caretaker and sort of my life changed very dramatically from being an academic. To finding a group of humans for the first time that want in this case it was bonding without alcohol is the linchpin of social gathering it was around meditation and wellness and I never even meditated in my life but these people wanted to connect with me at the most authentic vulnerable way. You know really seeing me and I I wanted to ring that with me for the rest of my life and help other people feel that if they wanted it because I just knew so deeply to not have that would have felt like and I never want to feel it again or rightly. And so it's it's yeah building community and helping other people experience that in their life is like deeply important to my life submission which is to create more live in the world. Yeah thank you for sharing that story yeah thanks for asking didn't know and yeah it's not obvious. Yeah it's such a contrast to who I see you as now you're such a webweaver and back to the the being seen piece I do think that feels like a key part of fostering healthier relationships with of course yourself but then with other people. And if I think about my life the changes that I've made to better understand who I am to see myself honestly to acknowledge and love the parts of myself that I perhaps didn't always has led to such deeper connections friendship romantic existing relationship new relationship people I've just met old relationships that can evolve through those seasons and that feels like such an important part of back to my other question of like how to have healthy relationships. At large regardless of gender orientation totally platonic or romantic doesn't matter it feels that that is such a underrated skill. Yeah I really appreciate you sharing that I think actually it's interesting sometimes I get DMs for people who like so lovingly just want stronger friendships in their life and it's not something that you know I've ever quote unquote like advertised as something that I do necessarily. And I feel really honored that people would ask me for how to like help them improve that you know vertical in their life as a vertical because I've been working in tech but like one of the most meaningful connections that we actually don't place enough value on I think as a society across the board. We put so much emphasis on like finding you know the one the romantic partner having kids and like friendships come and go or you know if you have a lifetime friendship and it fails it means you know not as much as if you break up with the partner after two years. You know there's like a serious disconnect I think in the way that we view like other types of relationships and there's there needs to be like a kind of a reckoning of how we read we view all of the connections that could potentially like help shape us as humans right over the course of a life. So yeah I don't know where I saw this or heard this but it was some podcast about the evolution of modern monogamous relationships and just modern relationships at large and I think necessarily monogamous and how in current times we have this societal belief that your romantic partner partners, should fulfill all of your needs, your emotional needs, your sexual needs, your all of the friendship, like all of these sort of like confidant, the best friend partner, like all of the above, right? Like that's the answer, like that's the idealistic notion and I don't know if that's Disney-based conditioning or where the hell that comes from, but it does feel very rooted in my view and this, whoever this was talking, I need to look this up to fact check this source here. We're saying that that's a pretty modern view, like in like a hundred years ago, we didn't put all our eggs in the partner basket. We had more robust community structures, we were more religiously active as a society. - Sure. - Of course there's been like kind of like falling apart of these community structures and like I live in Saucelito now and there's like, like a lion's, I think it's called lion's club. Like there's a sign I'm like, who the fuck is in lion's club these days? But like somebody was, you know, the rotary, that's another one that's like on the local side. - Oh yeah, rotary. - The rotary club and there's like, all these like old versions of community like religious organizations have had significant declines and like people going to church and stuff like that or a synagogue, whatever. And so I just think it's like such an interesting time. Like how do you reckon with the like where, there's just a lot of emphasis on like finding the one back to that framing. And I think that also devalues friendship and community, which again was part of why I was so keen to chat with you today and it feels like the healthiest I've been in romantic partnerships have been when I've actually had the best friendships outside that. - Absolutely 1,000%. I like one of the framings that I use in terms of like how I'm calling it a romantic partner is thank God, God is divine universe. My life is so full and rich with all the other relationships that I have that whoever comes into that role only adds to the like delicious cake that is this life that I get to embody and live out this Dharma, you know, because you're right. The idea that one person like what a burden to put on one human, to fulfill all of these different needs and desires, you know. And also I think, you know, and I don't necessarily think this is anyone's fault. I don't like actually the sort of the concept of blame, but like society I think is quote unquote, to blame for this, you know, we make it seem like a bad thing to have like if you're a male and you have a female friend or, you know, you're a woman and you have a male friend and, you know, forget the concept of like cheating physically but like emotional cheating is like a thing. And I truly, and I'm just gonna sound bizarre to a lot of people, I'm sure. I don't understand it. Like I literally don't understand the concept because the idea that you could have quote unquote, an affair with someone who meets another emotional need that you don't have with a romantic partner literally can't compute. Because the human brain is wired to have so many needs and desires that it would only feel natural to be able to share that intimacy in some way, you know, provided of course that, you know, you're still emphasizing the relationship you have with that partner and you're not taking, you know, a certain amount of time away from your family or whatever, like there's of course like ways to do this really consciously. And I can understand how it could become unconscious for sure. And the idea that like those relationships couldn't be considered like a healthy, you know, expression of love for another human that has like given you and served you in different ways platonically, probably, most likely. Yeah, that's hard for me to understand because I have, I feel so grateful for how many rich, dynamic, intellectual, intimate, platonic friendships that I have, you know, that are so physically touch base too and still platonic, you know, at one point in my life, you know, I called it, it's going to sound ridiculous as someone who is or anyone who's not alert the rings fan, but you know, there's nine in a fellowship, right? The fellowship of the ring. And I have something that I call the fellowship of the bean 'cause Justine Magic Bean. And I have seven friends who I am like, we have life committed to each other, like in some cases with rings and proposals that we have said, this is someone that is not my romantic life partner, but is a person that is in my life until the end. And how amazing that I've had the experience of rewriting the narrative that like a quote unquote proposal has to happen between one, you know, one to one romantic partnership, right? And for so long, heteroromantic, right? That are a normative partnership. And so to expand that aperture of like, who can we commit our lives to? Has been one of the greatest gifts of my experience so far in this planet, frankly, like how cool that I've been proposed in multiple times and I've proposed multiple times. You know what everyone said, yes, (laughs) it's freaking great. So, you know, I guess the takeaway from all of that is I find it to be really healthy and an expression of the human experience to have, you know, as you said, like these other types of connections that only add to the richness of life because we are so full as humans, we can't possibly have that on one person. - Yeah, have you heard of this concept of relationship anarchy? I think there's a book titled this. Do you know what I'm talking about? - I don't know enough about like the structure or the unstructures that it returns maybe of anarchy, the relationship anarchy, like the way that they have designed it, the framework, but I have heard the term, yes. - Yeah, I was, as you were describing all that and I appreciate the vulnerability in that share, there's, I think I was just pondering like, where does that come from? Like, where does our collective anxiety about, like to your comment about like the emotional affair, like, what is that rooted in? And my brain goes to patriarchal control in treatment of women's property. Like, that's where I was talking, I was like, okay, like we need to have this like, it's like a power control thing and thus anything that in a world of, I don't know, like generations ago where monogamy was perhaps like a way of protecting your offspring. Like, I don't know, I'm not sure if it's like some biological root or just power, like male power, but it does feel like what your experience of how you connect with people is, would probably make some people like, like not, they couldn't understand that or there would be more skeptical, right? And I think there's something very beautiful of not just taking the models of what are and just saying that that's what it is. That's what society says it should be and one of my early guest, Nick, is in a poly relationship and you know, it was really, it's been very beautiful to talk, we didn't talk too much on the podcast about it, but it's been really, really beautiful to connect with him and-- - Yeah, he's great. - Yeah, you know Nick and shout out to Nick. And it's so, it like, I think we so often we exist in these constructs and these boxes and so much of, I was thinking about you as you were describing like when you were, in your like school of 10 kids and like, I think you used DCs, you called yourself a weird one, is that what you said? - Yes. - Yeah. Like, there's a saying I love in Japan, which is the tallest blade of grass gets cut first. I love Japan, but Japan is also would be hostile as a non-conformist as I would call myself because it's so conformist, right? And I think there's a version of youth, but also this extends into adulthood and when we talk about love and relational structures and just different ways of connecting with people where I think there's so much pressure to be a certain way. And maybe if you live in Portland, San Francisco, Brooklyn, there's maybe less pressure, but there's still pressure and maybe it's just different kind, you know? And I think there's something really, yeah, just very freeing and I hearing the way you describe how you formed connections, that is uniquely your own in a way that works for you. And I think it's, I think I like, I think for some people like where they don't have the curiosity or the openness to other people's experiences, we're so quick to judge these days. And so people are so quick to pass judgment upon other's choices without actually questioning their own. And so I just admire you for, yeah, coming up with us, like a model, a system approach that seems to work. Like that's, fuck yeah, like as long as it's done ethically and it does in a way that serves you and the people around you, like, cool, like awesome. - Yeah, great, yeah. I'm still learning 100% like I, and I'll sort of level set this as well. Like me, pre 10 years ago, would never understand or accept or predict the life that I currently lead. And in fact, would have been actively challenged by, like if you showed me a video of me today to back then, would never have believed it was me because I grew up fairly conservatively in a world actually grew up three generations in the music business you know with a family that like was exposed to a lot of the more quote unquote like darker sides of going down rabbit holes because of being an entertainment world, and so not my immediate family but like the world that they existed inside of. And so being raised and working conservative violence like protect against that, so to speak. And so as the oldest of what became six kids over time, you know, always wanting to be like the good respectable role model oldest daughter, you know, experience. And then going into academia into archaeology for many years working museums of really high, you know, I lived in DC for almost nine years, hyper conservative, you know, just generally speaking environment. And never having tried a substance in my life, like just really like, you know, nothing, I never drink, I still never almost never drink. It's pretty rare. And wanting to always be like responsible, so to speak. And now, of course, like I feel the most responsible because I feel so in tune with like who I, you know, really am in my alignment. And I couldn't even say that even two years ago, like I only really feel that truly in this last two years. But I just want to share it like I was in that space, like really confronted probably super judgmental, like couldn't understand, you know, I would swipe left on burners like when I came across them on dating apps, you know, sometimes I'm like, uh, did I swipe left in my person, you know, who knows, like years ago, like I already have that statement is hilarious. But you just like to show the sort of like chasm that existed between me and this life and me in that life. And so like the deep dedication and exposure and openness, you know, kind of after, you know, I was man as caretaker for a year realizing how much my old life was suffocating me after like I had that space from it. And that's not to say I didn't love my discipline or my friends. You know, I still love my friends from that from those parts of my life. And I can recognize that we, you know, we live really different lives now. And I can, I respect everybody's choices. Now, in fact, when I experience a judgment in myself, and this is like, feels really kind of like, oh, but I really have like an immediate awareness of like, wow, that doesn't feel good to think that, you know, like it just doesn't feel good to have that without that curiosity and that openness. But as a trained skill. It was not natural to me for sure. And, you know, going back to our earlier question about, you know, like emotional fairs and having sort of other relationships, like I can imagine very much that there is like a fear of lack of safety, right? Someone is leaving you like these sort of like attachment theories that we have and, you know, series around non attachment, not theories of practices and spiritual practice around non attachment, like if someone is not with me, they're leaving me right like my biggest fear. Across my entire life is to not matter. And to like not have mattered to someone. And so like when I go into aggressive state, like that's where I go. Like, I'm with you. I'm with everyone. And I've learned over, you know, many, many years now of practice, how to sort of all use the word rise above for lack of a better word. You know, the word choice is so specific, but like dedicated practice, changing that paradigm for myself. Yeah, it takes work. Self-awareness. It does. It takes a shit to work. There's ain't no vacation. Yeah. The growth and evolution I hear in your, your journey is pretty profound. It's, and it speaks to, I'm assuming, and I'm actually very curious to hear like, how has your, how have your relationships changed throughout that period? Of course, there's like the burner example of like maybe the judgment of your younger earlier self. And now I'm curious like how has that changed fundamentally your types of relationships as you've gone through this. Yeah, shedding of skin and evolution of who you are. Yeah, I appreciate the question. So I mean, the answer is a lot, frankly, I went, and I'm actually, I'm not sure I've ever said this out loud before, but because I existed in this like, I'm so afraid to be seen, but I want to be seen, but I'm afraid of being rejected that I often for a large majority of my life would pre-reject people that I thought would eventually reject me. And I went through this a few times, and I am not proud of that at all. And in some cases, I've repaired it in other cases. I've sort of let bygones be got bygones, but I've done a lot of deep reflection on it because it's not the person that I want to be at all. And it didn't feel good to do it. It didn't must have not felt good to receive it. At the time, I didn't have the tools I have now because we're not taught how to repair friendships. We're not taught how to express vulnerabilities really at that age. I was always taught, you know, as much as I love my family. You know, being so emotional was a weakness, right, because it meant I was going to get taken advantage of and I'm too trusting and all those things. And so, you know, that's one piece of it. It actually feels really vulnerable to share that part out loud. I never even said it out loud in my home. And then, you know, to what's evolved since then, you know, I'll take my family as an example. You know, when I went to my first burn, not to, you know, always bring it back to the burning man, but it is such a pivotal experience in my life and feels like my yearly pilgrimage. And such a deeply meaningful way. But when I went to my first burn, you know, I went with my partner at the time. And, you know, we had the most magical week of my life. We broke up right after we got back from burning man, which, you know, it's an itself of the thing that we've healed a long time now, which is great. And next day I came home and my dad, I was living at home at the time because I just taking care of my grandma and was figuring out the next chapter of my life. And again, in this discovery of who I wanted to be. And he was like, I don't know who you are anymore, like you're with this community. I can't tell if it's a cold, like you're trying these things, like I just don't know who you are anymore. And because of his experience in the music business and entertainment world, he was afraid that that path meant darkness because of his, you know, world view and experience. And so for really, he was like effectively. I think it's time for you to kind of like get your shirt together and move on and the rest is history because I moved to LA and, you know, what's become of my life since then is like the biggest gift ever. But it took us, you know, six years of like deep intention repair because I felt like I had to hide so much of my life from the one in this case going back to the, you know, the masculine. The most stable male trusting relationship I have in my life to this day remains my dad who obsessed with and I love him so very much. And he didn't accept me for who I was or who I was experiencing, but potentially could be me. And so, you know, I'll say all this to say like he has come so far when I came out to him two years ago when I came out as bisexual and I would say solo poly and monogamous, you know, all the things, you know, he was like, how does it feel to tell me that I also told the rest of my family and I was like, honestly, like the biggest weight ever, even though I never really felt like I needed to share it. It's something when I did it was like such a relief. To be so accepted lovingly and like we talked only in the last year about substances and never thought I could touch that with him because I was like the good girl, the oldest daughter, you know. And then last year he came to Burning Man with me, the very pleased he effectively kicked me out of the house for going to, you know, and so I took him and my uncle who are both 80 years old. And they said, you know, it was the best time of their entire life like the best thing they've ever done in their life experience wise because it brought them to a place. They said out of the thousand people that I introduced them to every single person, it wasn't the art, it wasn't the creativeness, it wasn't the leaves like all of that part was amazing, but they said the takeaway was every single person was so loving, so kind, so warm, just everyone wanted to hug them and just so genuinely know them. And they could not believe at that scale, the amount of love that they were experiencing and that like change my life in that moment, like who can change my life today, right. It made everything worth it because I could finally share with the masculine all of myself, you know, and I cannot tell you Joe how healing that continues to be. Wow, that's so special that they were able to join and yeah, I think the hardest relationships to grow and evolve are often our family. Sure, what's you know, the Ram Das code, I think you're lightened but go spend a week with your family, yeah, amen to that, because they've seen us and perhaps have these early fixed identities of who we are, the story of the good girl or the eldest or whatever, like whatever version you had of yourself, and I definitely have that with my own parents and family, and as you start to shed the skin to my earlier metaphor and try on new things. And yeah, experiment and grow and learn and perhaps stop operating from like the fear of being judged and more from just the love of being who you want to be. There's something back to that that blade of grass scene in Japan that Japanese idiom that is there's so much bravery it takes, I think to be that blade of grass, especially in a conformist society that Japan, but even here, and I wonder, you know, even the people reaching out to you, you know, whether it's for friendship or what you talk about your current. You're the thing you're working on in the dating space. I'm interested to each other in a second, but it's there is something about It's very freeing to be around people who seem to just be at more comfortable in their skin That's it. That is such a hard-earned lesson back to the hardship of that But also to be able to bring people along from different seasons and like your parents especially that's a really Incredible. Yeah, it's incredible. I have them like kind of through carry you through the different chapters Because not all relationships can go through all those seasons together Absolutely and I like I mean, I've said I'm grateful. How many times already in this episode? But in this session, I feel it's just so grateful that that's part of my path with them You know, and what I found is you know that blade of grass reference You know that blade of grass in my world gets to be the invitation for those other blades of grass to grow taller and so it's not so much like conformed to me to be taller, but like How tall can you be? Right, so That's how I've experienced and how people have reflected I feel so you know Grateful to have been received this way, you know, whereas before I was on the other end of like whoa that world You know and for me that version of like one world versus the other is like an awakening of Coming out of the biggest lab we've ever been told I think which is like you have to live life this one way whatever way That was told to you, you know people who have what I call an awakening is someone who finally realize that they do get to be the creator of their own Reality and then they start to make these like small incremental choices towards making that their reality and it could take years And it could take as big or a little step as possible, but someday at one point they go oh my gosh This is a life that I have chosen and I and like I could die happy in this moment because everything is in alignment They might use different words, but ultimately I feel like that's the same thing and you know Like what what a way to live right to be able to say that fully and I I think everybody deserves that chance frankly, but me being at that other end looking out and Feeling confronted and judgmental and all the things like I had to be ready to make that leap and finally the timing was right, you know after my grandma passed and I had all the spaciousness in my life for the first time to really like Confront who I was and who I didn't want to be for the first time and now I think you kind of go on stages, you know the curiosity piece the bridge who's like oh Let me look back and help the next person through the fun also to speak and then you get to the point of like Crossing the bridge fully and you're like okay, I live fully in this world and now I get to be the invitation moment You know, so it's kind of like cyclical experience and in my view So now I feel really you know like the invitation and what an amazing role to have earned frankly Yeah, thank you for for doing that and it's it's definitely obvious Having known you for a few years that you Yeah, you're you're just Have put concerted energy into personal expression and your identity and the way that is uniquely your signature and even if that is still an evolution as you let acknowledge earlier that just the commitment to it is It doesn't spire it inspires and I think in ways that people may be they're consciously unconsciously could get to and Sometimes that's also I think that back to use the word judgment I think sometimes there's also like often I don't know if you experience this like judgment of people who are like Because you know because you're not a normal blade of grass. It's just like what the fuck's wrong with them You know and like I think for me at least getting to a point where like I just don't care about the haters as much And I'm just gonna do I'm I'm gonna grow my hair out my fashion is completely changed I'm just gonna do different things this project this podcast project and start consulting like there's so many things in my life as Through my own lowercase a awakening that has a full unfolded in a way that is operating from so much less Fear and so much more abundance and judge and like free of judgment and more of just like I'm just gonna fucking go for it and see what happens. I'm like fall flat on my face Yeah Whatever. Yeah, whatever life gets better and better forever never That's what I that's a saying that I learned from my friend and Andrew Horn His mom taught it to him every morning when he woke up and I've never forgotten it I mean he says it a lot which is great because it is and you know like the one of the biggest lies It's like better do it now kid because it doesn't get any better than this, you know like it gets better every Fucking day if you believe it does right and so the the you know people I think kind of rationalize that in like well I've gotten older I stopped caring as much and so I just kind of like do what I want but like really I think it's It's so much more than that. It's I'm discovering who I am at the root of all this right and what I learned in Ten years ago in the transition from my old life when I was so afraid of telling my family for example I wanted to leave academia and I had two two degrees and half a PhD and spent all this money and time and effort and And I was like I want to dedicate my life to love and at the time I was invented yet underwater yoga and was opening that business and then I became a six 11 relationship coach for men And then I you know officially started community building like as a consultant and then on teams Even though I've been doing it for about 15 years now total But all those iterations I was so afraid of like the judgment of other people who loved me And what they would think right and that's just one example of the special capacity But ultimately they just said we want you to be happy We want you to be happy that's their judgment And all of the judgment was actually in my own head It was all inside of me like a total projection you know Yeah, the self-critic is uh often the hardest critic isn't it? Yeah, definitely going back to the um you know the silent retreat experience in the beginning We talked about I know I have to wrap up in a second but I discovered you know even though I have all things that I've shared and you know Different ways of viewing the world now like I realized in that silence how much My inner critics still exists in at the basic level of my brain or my mind and it was really actually surprising because that's not normally what I focused on but it was very present um And it's something that I'm still reckoning with actually like two years later Because I do hear it now more like if I pay attention to the sort of like quiet undertone I can still hear it um So it you know it's still there and we just have to choose like what to listen to I guess is what I'm saying Like we are the creators of our reality Yeah, as you say that I'm reminded there's this interview that Timothy Shalame has And I'm gonna paraphrase it it's uh something like life is coming from you and not at you mm-hmm and it is uh It takes time to like reorient around how Uh back to what our earlier conversation of like this kind of the manifestations and the intentions into action into Your lived experience and that just it just again. It's just time. It's a process of commitment and and Even with all of that as you step further and further away from safety I've found both this kind of dueling like equally having to confront my insecure security is and also Uh, feel more confident in myself and and but as you step further away from the safety of the nest of whatever society says you should do and what society like your life should look like It can make it harder and harder because you're just getting further afield from like what's the safe choices and that Is something that takes strength and that's not for the faint of heart, you know, and so I think it's that's how I at least rationalize of like this fear is It's this fear holds so many people back You know so many people just feel the fear and then just keep doing what they're doing And they never they live a life unrealized and that feels like the greatest like an unrealized potential is like would be the greatest heartache of a life for me I absolutely hear you on that um, I Yeah, ultimately I think everybody's Dharma is also to create love In my experience with witnessing the passing of life uh It's the only thing besides light that spans time space and dimension love And so that's what we get to take with us and so how does love manifest? I think it's like the ultimate act of bravery, you know loving yourself loving others Oh have keeping it open heart when it's inherently wanting to close, you know um And all those other parts that you just mentioned and then we've been talking about like I think ultimately really back to love So You know That's so yeah Not as going to say my takeaways is really just like if people could You know really center around a loving practice of You know what what is the legacy that I want to leave with um and and use their heart as as a metric like I think the world would be in a lot better place And you know feel very grateful that the world that I Have created existence amongst has that as a principle Yeah, cheers to that Yeah, and what you are very much a part of you know, yeah, thank you Yeah, it's been so great to chat today I feel like we just scratched the surface as always these conversations leave my brain spin in and Yeah, it's so energizing to chat with you today. I'm curious if you have any final words Final words that wisdom we didn't touch much on dating yet and perhaps if there's a bonus time, we can I'll throw another question in and if you don't get kicked out of the booth. (laughing) - Yes, yeah, it's funny 'cause we didn't even talk about really about community building at all. So there's still so much world to explore together. I would say that, you know, what's my ultimate take away? Well, there's so many things. I mean, it's really, it's ultimately about love. Love is the bravest act that we can choose to do. You know, actually, this is something that's interesting. I think you'll appreciate, you know, I was really challenged for a long time about the concept of non-dualism, non-attachment and this concept of like, don't create story. Don't attach the person. You don't know if tomorrow's coming. So like, you know, this sort of like hair and separation and it took me years to reconcile what I actually realized I think now I understand it to mean, which is not don't attach like my brain is going to create story. It just, I have an OCD brain. I was spicy, mildly autistic brain, like it's gonna do those things. And I rejected my brain for so long because I was like, you're not doing this thing. And ultimately what I realized is non-attachment because the next moment is not guaranteed. It actually gives us the most possible permission to love the fullest we can in this moment. So it's not about not loving because you're afraid of losing the thing. It's about loving as much as you can't possibly give with your heart because you don't know if the next moment is coming. So that's actually my takeaway or that I hope people would take away permission to love more. - Thank you for that. What a, yeah, such a positive spirit. And I do think sometimes the fleeting temporary nature of life can lead to nihilism or more cynicism about, yeah, like, what is it all, like fuck it? Nothing lasts, like kind of like more that type of angle. And I think there is something, you know, you shared your dad and, it was uncle, who went to Burning Man's World. - Yeah, my uncle, yeah. - Your dad and uncle's experience at Burning Man and being in community with people where there is such love and such non-judgment is, first of all, it's definitely not like what the internet feels like often. - Sure. - I think the energy of being in person and reconnecting with our shared humanity as a big part of the spaces that have given me the feeling you're describing, of feeling that love and feeling like the present is all, like this moment is, like this is all we got. Like can we show up with more presence and more kindness and more love? And that feels so special at a time where there's so much division and so much unease and political, economic, wars, et cetera, et cetera. Like all that stuff just like looming in the backdrop of just like my, our collective angst and despite all of that or maybe because of all of that, like damn, what a brave act yet again to love. - Agreed. I think even in the most dire circumstances, people who choose to love even in that moment, when it is the absolute hardest thing to do, like that is the needle that moves the world, you know? That is the thing that if the more people did that in the smallest of moments, when they think it doesn't matter and it can't change anything, it actually changes everything. And I really have so much hope for this planet because, you know, the smallest act of love can really change the universe, I really believe that. - Yeah, one of my previous podcasts he talked about just the power of being 1% better. And just like the ripples of how even in those small moments, like when we show up differently and how profound that can be. And I've been having this metaphor in my head of as we've been chatting about the throwing the little pebble in the water and like the ripples and like sometimes that's what love feels like to me is like the rippling outwards and like the waves that can just cascade outwards. And you know, you mentioned the scanning the room and feel like just smiling at somebody, like I feel like you can get these little ripples in these the most tiny moments if you're actually present and you're showing up with love, not this grasping yearning energy that I think has been a part of my own healing. And sometimes it's like this most small innocuous experiences of that that can really have the biggest impact. I feel, yeah, what came up for me when you share the ripples with the water? You know, I think of I was having this conversation a few years ago with someone that I was dating and we're still very close friends. And we were talking about like monogamous, monogamous, et cetera. And you know, he was curious about like how if you introduced other, you know, energies into a partnership, like how that doesn't like if you put a drop of, you know, blue into water. Okay, maybe a different color, a drop of pink. Like in his, he was like, oh, it dilutes the water. Like then it's diluted, you know, like this sort of like pure divine sacred union if you know the water is a love of ocean or ocean of love. And I'm like, well, if you drop that same drop, like then it's saturated with more love. But like the, the job of another piece of love from another human, you know, regardless of whether it's sexual, platonic, romantic, like it doesn't actually matter. But like we had such different, you know, world views of like how the addition of more love can sort of like enhance or detract. And it was a really interesting conversation. But like in fact, probably landed me in the place of like, no, I think ultimately the more love my partner has. And again, this is not like a specific way of looking, but like more or more love than my friends have or my parents or my kids. Like that is a richer life in my opinion. I wrote something on Instagram recently about our capacity. And it often feels like our capacity is our finite, like our capacity to love or to heal. I don't remember the exact word I used. But I believe that our capacity just grows. It's like it's actually as we heal, as we transform, we just our capacity feels actually almost limitless. And if you look at the extreme examples of people like Dalai Lama or like pick somebody else that you feel like is at a position of just so much, they are like capital L, all caps love with like four exclamation marks. Like they're just existing in a place of love. And they're not, it's to see that almost like those edge cases of like the furthest along manifestation of that love is like, whoa, it almost feels like how did that even the same species, but such a role model in inspiration when you can see it taking to that degree. Absolutely. There's a book that I read a couple of times in a year by Teeknot Han. It's actually two, one is called True Love and one is called How to Love. And I highly recommend it to anybody who's listening to this podcast. And every single time I learned something different, and I read it, you know, someone gave it to me as a gift actually many years ago, how to love. And it continues to be a role model for me of like the simplest ways of how, like you can't, one of the main lessons for me is like you can't truly love someone if you do not understand their suffering. And so like how can I love you in the way that you need to be loved if I don't understand you, right? Like if I don't see you. And what I'm in a moment of crisis was someone, and I say crisis is it, but it's not actually traumatic, but like I come back to that of like, okay, what actually do you need in this moment so that I can truly love you in the way that you need to be loved, you know, and what a gift that book is. - Yeah, I've read, is he Vietnamese, where is he from? - Yeah. - You all right? Yeah, I've seen a lot of this quotes, I've never read his books, but there's some deep, deep wisdom and like truth in his teachings that I've loved and shared many quote on Instagram over the years, and thanks for the encouragement. I'll have to check those books out. - Yeah, how do you recommend? - I wanted to touch on dating a little bit, like how you've done a lot of work in both community, mentioned your work, both kind of dating and work with men, and what, if you were to give any advice, if you're in part of some wisdom, how would you tell men how to date better? - Oh, that's a great question. I think, well, it depends on, I guess maybe sort of the angle, like part of it I think ultimately is a version of self-love and confidence, you know, and I'm not talking about, you know, sort of parts of the manosphere that sort of like talk, I hate even using the word toxic masculinity because the idea that it could be toxic is already just maddening, but there definitely is that version for sure. And coming to a place where, and this is anybody of any gender truly, like loving yourself is the ultimate, like first step. I think because what I've learned, you know, working in spaces now, particularly again, like in dating and love and relationships, you can put two people who on paper have everything possible, you could imagine in alignment, and the chemistry is even there, right? All those pieces can be true, and if one person has not done quote unquote the work or the healing that they need to do, it means the timing is not right. And that to me, and I've had this experience, speaking for myself, is the most frustrating thing about dating. or that I have experience in dating. because you're like, "Everything is here. This is perfect." And one of us, myself included, have not done like the one piece of work or the multiple pieces of things to reflect and, you know, sort of meet the mirror on. And ultimately, it's not right. And so I think that would be my like initial takeaway. Start there. Because then what comes after is there's so many possibilities. Again, it's like you can show up better as a brother, as a friend, as a father, as a lover, as a partner, you know, et cetera, et cetera, down the line, you know. Yeah, remind me of something somebody once told me and you can't love someone into their potential. Oh gosh. Yes. Damn, that's been a heartbreaking truth. Yes, yes, it. Yes, it has. My self included. And when, as you said, I love that guidance of taking the time to cultivate that love and for yourself, you're more likely to, in my own experience, find people who have done the same. And so, you're not betting on each other's potential. You're actually just seeing people for who they are. Exactly. And that's more likely to be a good, healthy, long term connection, whatever, you know, wherever along it suits you. And yeah, yeah, true love. And that's so important. Absolutely. One thing I've varied your friend of mine who's getting married very soon, Josephina Bashow, the pussy priestess. She shared with me a few years ago. She was like, don't look for someone with chemistry. Like that's part of it, but look for someone with capacity. And so that would be like my next piece of advice that I've really absorbed from her wisdom in this because I have dated partnered with some incredible humans that I will be forever changed because of their their wonderful, their wonderful nature and did not. And this is to no fault of their own or just timing or whatever, like, you know, all the pieces. And I actively chose to be part of it. So like, I am a player in this had no capacity for the level of partnership that we both opted into or said that we wanted to opt into. And so ultimately, we could not go forward because like the capacity for that, for me, I'm, you know, in terms of dating, I'm interested in desiring and I'll use the word like not available for anything that's not a co-devotional partnership. Going back to the devotion we talked about in the beginning, I want to devote to the masculine and I want to be devoted to by the masculine. And that type of relationship and partnership, which I have seen modeled around me through so many beautiful friendships over the last few years and a couple growing up require a level of depth and consistent attention to ritual and showing up every day for love and choosing your partner again and again, which requires lacking capacity. You know, aside all the other things that going on in your lives, you know, and so that is something I think is an absolutely necessary part of the equation that we just don't talk about it very often. Yeah, thanks for that. It's, it's so much easier to feel chemistry and think that's what it is all about. At least that's how I've very much related that experience of because it's, it's almost like an eight or it's like, I don't know if it's a biological thing or just a fair amount. So there's just some, there's something there that's often a pull. And yet that pull is very different than the requirements necessary for this codivotional partnership you're describing. And that takes a lot more and it's a lot harder simply, I think in terms of the getting all of those factors, right? But having had that and it's really powerful and so healing. And also really shines a mirror up to your shit. Oh, for sure. That's almost like my last experience closed. There was too much mirroring. Yeah. Like I quote, you're perfect for me. And the biggest mirror I've ever looked at and I don't have the capacity to look at it. Cool. Thanks. That's a hard treat to sit with, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, I want to be with someone who leans into that growth. You know, who's like, wow, I see this. And, you know, as I would want them to reflect to me. So, yeah, it can be quite confronting, but also that's that's really good stuff is in my experience. Sorry, this is kind of living in your little bubble. And yeah, partnership has been the hardest part of like in there's many things that have caused growth for me, but I do think romantic partnership has probably been one of the biggest catalysts for facing the mirror for facing all the shit that I've either refused to or not been willing to until I thought you finished working on. And then there it is again. Yeah. I always say I'm here for the most pleasure I possibly can have in this life, but comfort I am not here for because when you're comfortable, you're not growing. Growth is uncomfortable deeply at least in my experience. And, you know, I want to enjoy my life absolutely to the utmost. And I'm also here on this planet to learn and discover all the nuances and surprises and delights and griefs and depths of the human and possible experience that I can. Like, I've trained a heart of mine that was so closed to connection because it was so afraid for so long of being seen and being rejected. So now always consistently leaning in when it's the hardest thing to do. And so, you know, maybe I'll leave you with that. Cheers to that. What an inspiration that is and how hard that is and how rare that is, but yeah, with being able to do that is as we shared earlier, like, such a role model for many. And I applaud you for sharing your experience today and yeah, living authentically as as you do. And it's hard to do for all these reasons. And yet, my own confronting the important, like comfort, I too feel like meaning, happiness, love, these things are often come on the other side of heartache, pain, growth. And so being willing to face those dark parts can sometimes lead to so much more joy, positivity, love, all the things we're talking about. So yeah, amen to all of the above and such an honor to connect today, just being really excited to chat. Me too, such an honor, Joe. I'm so pleased to be with you on this journey and so have you in my life. Yeah, right back, right back at you. All right, have a good rest of your day. Thanks again, Justine. Thanks, Joe. Have a beautiful rest of your weekend. Bye.