8/26/26: Professor Pape Ridicules Bessent's D-Day, MAGA Influencer Caught Working for Pentagon, Beef Controversy w/ Dan Osborn

This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human. Hey, this is Hayes Davenport and Sean Clemence. We host the podcast, Hollywood Handbook. Each week we talk to someone in show business and try to help them with their careers and see what they have to offer us. Everyone has a good time and no one gets mad at their publicists for letting them do our show. We've had a lot of great guests like Sarah Sherman, Adam Scott, Danny McBride, Ben Stillert and a lot of other big shots that wouldn't be where they are without us. Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Munga Shateekeler and I'm back with a new season of my podcast, Skyline Drive. This time I talk to scientists, biopunks, cormugins, blues owners, super seniors, and go us top cryotherapy lab to try to understand this obsession with living forever and what it means for all of us. And I get into a bit of trouble along the way. I'd say probably start bone smashing. That doesn't work. Make you look more defined. They say it works. I don't know. But Skyline Drive, how to live forever on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I choose option B. I'm Julie Pinero and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word Solita, trading the pity for possibility. Listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, Saga and Crystal here. Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of the show. This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else. So if that is something that's important to you, please go to breakingpoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad-free, and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you at breakingpoints.com. Joining us now is great friend of the show, Professor Robert Pape of the University of Chicago, a great friend of our show, it's great to see you sir. Thank you for joining us. Oh, it's so great to be with you this morning. Absolutely. We know we are going to talk about South Korea but we also know that an extensive part of your work is around economic sanctions. We just did an entire segment about China's expected response. We could put C1 up here on the screen so you could give a little bit more of your analysis. China is saying that they will hit out at quote illegal new US sanctions on Iran and its trading partners, considering your expertise and your decades-long research into the subject. What do you make of the Secretary of Besson's economic d-day threats here against Iran and its trading partners? Yes, what Scott Besson is doing is going through another route of the escalation trap. He's presenting it as an alternative to war but that's not what it is. What it's really going to lead to is another escalation trap and if anything, if he in fact goes forward, it would be more military war. So for 30 years I have studied as we all know air power but also side by side with that economic blockades and economic sanctions publishing big articles, fat appendices, all the cases since World War I. And here's what people need to know that starting in World War I, the pattern is different before, but starting in World War I, economic blockades and economic sanctions have never, never, on their own, won a major war. They've never toppled a government on their own, a major, in a major war and they have never led to capitulation of that government to the coercers demands. This is extremely important to know because in World War I there was massive British blockade on Germany. World War II, massive economic sanctions and US blockade on Japan. And in both those cases, that blockade did not stop a messy ground wars. In fact, they only ended with messy ground wars and with Japan, the atomic bombs. If we look at Sodom Hussein in the 1990s, we imposed economic sanctions on Sodom Hussein after we kicked his forces out of Kuwait and those stayed on for a dozen years. They dropped the economy's GDP by 48 percent each year for 12 solid years and did not stop us from having to invade with 150,000 ground forces. Iran, we've been slapping sanctions on Iran for decades, no, and also Putin. Look at what happened with Russia after he invaded Ukraine. Now what has been the, we slapped economic sanctions on Russia? What has been the result in all of these cases? All of these cases? Notice, they don't lead to peace, they don't lead to ceasefire, they lead to failure, strategic failure and more war, more escalation. So Scott Besson is really not doing a good service to the world by saying that this is an off ramp to escalation and the one question the media should have asked at the press conference is Secretary Besson, can you name one case since World War One over the last 100 plus years, just one case that fits your model? All we need is one sir, one case and you know what, there's not a case and this is something that's important because there's a second point I want to make, which is you also see the targets lashing back. It's the sanctions we slapped on Japan that led to the Pearl Harbor attack. This is not a controversial point at this point. This is well known and we run the risk that if we go forward what's going to happen is Iran will lash back, then we're going to spiral back and that is the escalation trap. These are not off ramps to war, they're effectively the western way of war because they persuade liberal audiences done everything you could do. So force is a last resort. That's how you get the liberals on board for wars they don't want to fight. And what examples throughout history do we have of a country as powerful as China being sanctioned? And what are the implications for the U.S. ability to carry through its threats? Well, we don't have to look that far back. Just go back a year because what the tariffs were on China were effectively economic sanctions. So President Trump used the word tariffs, but if you peel the onion and you look under the hood, they're exactly the trade cutoffs of sanctions. So they're really not much different than sanctions at all. In fact, they're identical and what happened, China responded with cutting off rare earths. And that may sound a little inside baseball to most people, but it's important to know that these things we call rare earths are not just dirt, but they show up in all the chips that we put in our cars. I drive a RAV4. You can't produce RAV4s here in Ohio or in the Midwest in the American plants if China cuts off those rare earths. So this has much more dramatic consequences. And I'm not at all surprised that what I've been saying China would do is they're just going to bluff it off. They're just going to ignore this. Now, if Scott Besson goes forward and truly cuts off China's banks, then I think China's going to respond. But I don't think China sees this as a real threat yet today. I think it's too much bluster here. That's why Scott Besson wouldn't even mention the word China, his friend. Notice, he didn't even say the word China. And he said, and somebody asked him, why aren't you being tough? And he said, well, I don't want to blow up the world financial system. He literally said those words. So think about it. Here we've got the Secretary of the Treasury, unrolling, rolling out a plan. And he says, oh, and by the way, if I execute the plan, we all go down with it. I don't understand. That's not a plan for victory in my book. Maybe you can help me understand this Washington. This must be what happens in Washington. No, this is more from a standard episode of VEEP, unfortunately. Professor, we also wanted to ask you about South Korea. And just generally in the broader context of what's happening in Asia, we can put D1 up here on the screen. Some pretty shocking, new public polling actually coming out of South Korea for the first time in modern history, really. You see that the opinion of the United States, among South Koreans, is near an all-time low in 2026. Much of it on the heels now of Trump cancelling these military exercises with the South, trying to court the DPRK in the North. But also with a lot of our trade relationships and blustering against South Korea on top of many of the other incendiary actions taken against their companies here in our nation. I know that you have previously given some analysis about when the United States seeks to potentially abandon South Korea that they can pursue a nuclear weapons program. How do you put it in the broader context? of the realignment of U.S. position of power in Asia? Yes, and I've also been to the sole dialogues I've actually been to South Korea with the president and so forth on the stage. So I know a little bit about these subjects and it's part of what I study. So what you are seeing in that chart, it's very interesting. The actual point where it starts to spike up is in 2025 and what happened in 2025, Trump's tariffs, which I told you were sanctioned. So he tariffed South Korea as well. And this has an enormous impact on the South Korean economy. And yes, he pulled back a bit from this, but there's still these pretty serious tariffs there. And by the way, South Korea is really peeling the pain from this. So it's no surprise at all that this is where the spike is. And then in the war, during the Iran war, now President Trump is asking for South Korea to essentially give us some of their destroyers to put at risk, because we won't put our destroyers at risk. No, no, no, we just want to, we're going to fight to the last South Korean destroyer. So notice this is not working out very well. And the South Korean public is able to follow this. Now the bigger picture though is what you see is that we are in a quagmire in the Middle East and we're now pulling our aircraft carrier from Asia that's supposed to be protecting South Korea into this quagmire. And there's no replacement to go back to Asia. So what South Korea, what you really have to worry about as time goes on, is not just this a short-term kerfuffle, but South Korea sees there's no more protection from big brother Uncle Sam. And what does that mean? The last time they worried about that, they went for nuclear weapons in the 1970s. And it was only when we absolutely guaranteed that our ground forces would be there, et cetera, and actually stationed in South Korea, that they turned off the nuclear program. So this is not a small issue, it's not, it may be a bit under the media radar right now. But this could be the first nuclear nominow to fall outside of the Middle East. I've seen Iran, Saudi Arabia, South Korea. So racing for nuclear weapons is one way of trying to create some stability. Another is to actually just reach a peaceful coexistence with your neighbor. Is there a prospect for that in the region? Like, could you imagine a world in which the U.S. kind of withdraws its presence? I mean, clearly they're already withdrawing their military capacity there. And that forces the parties there to say, you know what, we're not going anywhere like we need to reach some sort of mutual agreement here by which we can live together peacefully. I do think that's possible. So from 2012 to 15, one of the reasons I went to South Korea is I made eight trips to China, South Korea, and Taiwan in that three-year period. And I was meeting with high-level people, including at the level of the president here, especially the office. I will say I won't say the individual because if you ever have those conversations, you don't want to say that about having a meeting, an international conference, and the first step of that that would make sense would be to do it not as a government set of governments getting together, but the way this really happens to build that kind of walking to cooperation is often with academics and civil society, think tanks. And we got quite close here, I would say, to that. I think it would be wise to try that again, but it's difficult right now because the Obama administration was much more open to cooperative international efforts. You're not seeing any signs of the Trump administration interested in brokering these efforts, and it's not impossible to do without the United States, but it's obviously much easier if there's at least a wink, wink support that this is generally supported from the White House. What you're seeing is the office that you're seeing, heavy-handed action. And that doesn't talk to, there's no effort month long effort to bring the world together for an international coalition against Iran. He just up and announces that in its his way or the highway, you don't like it, you're either with us or again us. Well, this is not the way to actually bring people together, but I do think it's possible. I do think it's really possible and I think it's worth trying. I think to your previous point, professor about South Korea, you mentioned Saudi Arabia and Turkey. What do you make? Got very little coverage here in the West. It did seem to be a monumental new security arrangement. What do you make of that security arrangement as we continue to see the emerging security order post-Iran War? Well, this is what is part and parcel of what will happen when Iran becomes the fourth center of world power. So as I've explained, Iran is on the trajectory to become the fourth center of world power. And as it gets more and more powerful, as you're seeing, we start talking about this, I think back in April. And now it's becoming more and more a reality. Well, what that means is Iran will want to extend its influence over the front line Gulf states, literally like the Soviet Union did when it occupied Eastern Europe, and it will want to control the governments. Well, Saudi Arabia, of course, doesn't want to be controlled by Iran. So what does it do? It starts to look for international help. That's Pakistan and Turkey. And then also starts to think seriously, not just on whiteboards, about nuclear weapons. And that's what you're seeing with Saudi Arabia. They're responding to the result of Iran on the trajectory to become the fourth center of world power. And this will not go unnoticed. It might not be covered much by the media. But you can bet all the governments in the Middle East and the governments in Asia are noticing this. And they are not going to be sort of, even though the media may not cover Iran as the rising fourth center of world power, the world is going to react to that. So we were talking at the beginning of the program about the interesting dilemma that Iran finds itself in, which is to borrow a phrase, but it's almost like a de-escalation trap. What I mean by that is that while they have fought the U.S. to, maybe better than a standstill, they've wiped out a bunch of American bases. They've shown that they can withstand the amount of American punishment that Americans able to dish out. They know that the American capacity is, you know, the ammo capacity is minimal at this point, so they don't have a whole lot more left. U.S. is looking at something like 40 days of oil inventories left. But Iran, too, is facing a severe economic crisis, which could lead to a political crisis. And so now there's a staring game, who can outlast the other one. And so there's a concern among some, or Ron and hardliners saying, if we are stuck in this stasis, like we actually start falling behind, so that's why, say maybe it's a de-escalation trap. Well, so they don't agree. They then to ratchet it back up to get out of it, the only way out is through. So where do you see this kind of stalemate ending? I don't think it's a stalemate. I understand that's the common narrative, but Iran has the upper hand and they're putting their pedal to the metal by initiating attacks. So it's not true, just because we're not bombing Iran, does it mean Iran is not using attacks? So it's not tit for tat anymore. There's no tit for tat's been gone. This is just a wrong framing. What's occurring is Iran is initiating attacks. They've attacked seven UAE tankers in the state of Hormuz since August 5th. And what they're doing is they're trying to squeeze America economically in order to put -- have gas prices raised -- to in order to wreck the Trump presidency. There's a clear game plan here by Iran that I think the media is mostly missing, which is Iran is not sitting back and is it, oh, treading water, Iran is squeezing the oil more and more in the Persian Gulf and also with the Houthis against Saudi oil. And what that's doing is it's causing the price of gas to go up and also causing real rockiness in our financial markets. Those are the reasons for that. And I think they want to do that through the midterms, at least, maybe through January, to basically wreck the Trump presidency and install the Democrats and force the Democrats to take a position on the Iran war. So this is Iran playing American politics, not just simply treading water. Right. It makes a lot of sense. Professor, we have another guest standing by, though, as we'd love to keep talking to you. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Of course. Oh, in sub-stack. We'll have a link down in the description. Hey, this is Hayes Davenport. And Sean Clements. We host the podcast, Hollywood Handbook, on the Big Money Players Network. Our show is extremely accessible to first-time listeners. Each week, we talk to someone in show business, aka The Biz, and try to help them with their careers and see what they have to offer us. Everyone has a good time, and no one gets mad at their publicists for letting them do it. - We've had a lot of great guests like Sarah Sherman, not that great. - I actually, can you help me shape this? How about we flip it on his head? How about we flip this around? Okay, what is the surprise one, man? Who actually you think is the straight man is actually the one who's acting weird. - Adam Scott, love. - This entire time you've been expecting Adam Sandler to come to visit the show. - I would never let go of that. - I have, I would never set expectations for something like that. - It sounds like if the universe allows for something like that to happen. - I am open to it. - I'm always going to accept, you know? - Danny McBride, fine. - Yeah, it's all this fragile masculinity exuding. I could smell it walking on the hallway to be honest with me. - I was like, "Is that weed?" - Nope, it's fragile masculinity. - Ben stiller, no. - I think there's a lot of times out of context, people don't get it, or even know what a circle is. You know what I mean? Like, you're like, "Oh, it's so stupid." - Everyone's so dumb, it's for you. - And fake. - Right, fake, and also not interested, or just like, "Oh, I've got my life. I don't care about your life." - And a lot of other big shots that wouldn't be where they are without us. - Oh, and by the way, Will Ferrell told us personally he loves the show, and he wants to be a guest on every episode, but he's just so busy. Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. - On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. - I can wait four hours for the next bus, or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I choose option B. I'm Julie Bignero, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. - Every time I try to be alone, I kept meeting people, and they were like, you smiled at us, not a lot of people smile around here. - It's when you're alone, that you're most receptive to the world as it is, and not the lies you're sold about it. It can be a time where you push your limits, change your mind, or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran, or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped, and health captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the survivor files. - You just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. - Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. - I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. - They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced, but these aren't stories about what's taken from them. Their stories about what it takes to make it out alive, listen to the survivor files with Elizabeth Smart on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - All right, let's get to influencers. I'm just personally obsessed with this story, it's kind of about the way that information works in the modern right, and then magosphere influencers, and how it's now revealed that one of the top ones is actually being paid by the United States government, is an employee over there. So let's put this up here on the screen, just to reveal how this entire thing happened, hate to cite the bull work, but they had the best ride up on it, so it is what it is. So they say, a MAGA propaganda circular firing squad, how leaking to a prominent pro-Trump influencer, prompted accusations of entrapment and a deep state conspiracy. So, Will Summer, he writes, pro-Trump internet sleuth, Jessica Pounds, better known as data Republican to her 1 million followers on Twitter, made a grim announcement on Friday. Deep state operatives embedded within the Trump administration had tried to entrap her into committing treason. She says, it is not okay when the deep state sets you up to commit a crime. I have never been more angry in my entire life. In Pounds, Portentious Telling, an unnamed official soon be to reveal Sarah B. Rogers, who is the undersecretary for public diplomacy at the State Department, had offered to leak her government documents about Cuba to publish as an exclusive. While Pounds was initially enthusiastic, markings on the documents prompted her to panic that she was being set up. Had she published the documents Pounds felt, she would have exposed herself to criminal prosecution and she then puts all of this out there in an unhinged conspiracy. Then eventually what happens, it becomes her field that Miss Rogers, who works as the undersecretary for public diplomacy, had these documents which should already be publicly clear to be released by FOIA, had it been leaking them to her as an exclusive. So you and I, Ryan, see this type of BS all the time. Some public official wants to use you for propaganda purposes. They say, hey, I've got an exclusive for you. - It's like 99% of your interactions with public officials. - Literally 99% of your interactions abound to something like this. And you go, okay, what is it? They give it to you, and again, 98.9% of the time, it's bullshit. And you say, I don't care, go ahead and release the public. However, these MAGA influencers, Lafayette Herr, she was gonna release these documents about Cuba, about how bad things were going on in Cuba. It's pure propaganda, right? And so what's revealed about this entire thing and why I wanted to do it was to show both the low human capital problem that abounds on the modern right, but also a distinction between independent media and independent journalism. Because anybody who knows anything about journalism would not have thought, wow, this is an elaborate deploy to entrap me. They would have said, this is a stupid story, which has no news value whatsoever. And instead, she's happy to do the latter, but it's the former, which she gets upset about. It also shows how these people who are total anonymous, people who come out of nowhere, who have no background in journalism, who have no interest in learning, who abide by rules, which the legacy media, who I hate, as you know, would never even put themselves in that depths of depravity, basically by releasing whatever they want on behalf of the state. That for them, their lack of professionalism is putting them now in situations where they have to interact with these public institutions and totally beclown themselves. And what's so funny about this, and I'm sure you'll love this in particular, is let's put E3 up here on the screen, is it now turns out that according to the DOD, that she serves, quote, at the Department of War as a special government employee and is no longer a credentialed journalist at the Pentagon. So get this. She previously, remember we covered this extension, the two of us, this bullshit Pentagon. >> They've brought in a whole new press corps. >> They brought in a new press corps, which is a bunch of maggot influencers. They barely hold any press conferences. They kicked all the real Pentagon journalists out of the building. And because they refused to sign something saying that they basically wouldn't do their jobs. And so now, it turns out that she was part of that press corps. But now literally works as a special government employee, doing what exactly? But I mean, on behalf of us. And so in this case, you have a government official, trying to leak to another government official. And the whole thing comes, she's like, you're trying to entrap me because I'm a government. Of it she's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're paying an anonymous ex-influencers who published a bunch of weird Zionist nonsense all the time about deep state conspiracies. You're part of the deep state. You're working at the Pentagon this entire time. So I had to give it coverage to show low human capital, the bottom feeders in a lot of independent media that exists right now. Because they have no standards. They have no journalistic experience. They have no ability to discern general fact, reach out for comment, do anything normal. And yeah, it's like the fact that all of this happened. Just I think demonstrates what you can see in the emerging like MAGA ecosystem. And I didn't pull this element. I probably should have. As Recline wrote a piece in the New York Times, which I actually thought was quite prescient. And he said Democrats, he said Republicans are making the same mistake the Democrats did. They had a major Twitter problem. As in, ever since you on bot Twitter, is that people are literally living in a parallel universe where they think things are more popular than not, both rhetorically, politically, from different types of politicians or even overestimating their own influence. And that legacy is bleeding through the Republican elite in the same way that let's say, "Lokism bled through the Democratic elite for during a woke one," which was crazy, although not really over, as you showed in your Abdul al-Assad coverage yesterday. But as he said, that Twitter problem of the small group trying to set the discussion is bedeviling the right in the exact same way. And I think this is a good example of that entire thing. - Yeah, right, it would be like if, it's like they have their own blue sky. Like Twitter has become the kind of rights blue sky in it. And you can imagine, like, the same problems that were created by old Twitter for Democrats would exist if all Democrats had to rely on was current blue sky. - Right. - Like the obviously government, like completely lunatics. And that's what's happening here. But yeah, the state of Republican, it's just amazing. I watch. in with good faith, ready to collaborate on Cuba. I had a Cuban official reach out to me. They're like, "What on earth is going on here? This is your deep state." I was like, "This is our shallow state." It's like, "What were they even trying to leak? What is going on here?" It's got shoved a bunch of hard copy documents to leak. Didn't check them before accepting, yep, markings that would have gotten me in big trouble. So she really, really thought that they hired her to be a propagandist. Right. At the DOD. At the DOD. To then set her up because she didn't understand how FOIA works. See, that's another tell, is that any journalist, literally, any, even one of the most basic things you do in Washington, as a junior reporter, is file these annoying FOIA requests. So you become familiar with FOIA markings look like. Like, if you had experience in this, you'd be like, "Well, wait a minute, I didn't file this FOIA. What journalist in my screw?" Exactly. Because some journalists went through the actual work, or actually this might have been a right-wing organization that filed the FOIA. That's probably what happened. So you go through this work and you file a FOIA. And then once it's ready, the entire public has access to it. But because they paid the money, they did the labor, like the courtesy, at least, is that they're supposed to get the scoop on the FOIA documents. That's supposed to call in. Now, the way it would work differently is if it's a kind of right-wing, kind of activist organization that filed the FOIA, and then they'd be fine if you gave it to a propagandist to break. Ben Smith had a good response in the area. It seems like the alternate information space you are trying to nurture needs some work. It is a skills and training gap, which has been part of the right for decades now. I remember Tucker Carlson in the 2000s giving a speech saying one of the reasons he built Daily Caller was to confront this skills gap of like actual journalistic skills gap. Yeah, I mean, look, that's a testament. You know, that's where I got my job by first start. He later said it didn't work. Right. Well, he did say it didn't work. But I mean, I would just be at least somewhat. Because if you look at the -- I mean, not just me, I'm not going to my own or, I mean, there are a lot better journals that came out of it than I am. I eventually just became a talking head moron. But at least I came from the background of it, and I have the skepticism to know when people are trying to use you, when they're, you know, how the basics of FOIA work. I mean, these things matter. And there's nothing wrong, you know, with being -- if you want to expound on politics, be my guess. But if you were going to talk about exposure, do you need to know the very basics of your craft and not look like a conspiracy, you know, written -- like, I mean, just look at this. Like, you're literally working for the -- First of all, what does it also say about our government that they hire somebody like this? What? It's like, this is humiliating for you on every level, both on the government side. The fact that she was credentialed previously at the Pentagon. So this is the type of work, you know, that they think is appreciative. And I think the worst part for me was that the woman who she accused of trying to set her up, Sarah Rogers, was like, "It's okay. You shouldn't be distrustful of a girl." No, she's totally debasing herself before this clown. No, you should say you're an idiot. It's like, yeah, you are literally an idiot. So, yeah, that's where things stand as of right now. Another former Trump administration lawyer responded, "Unfortunate misfire from two of our best." And that is your problem. Yeah, and somebody put out -- these are two of your best. Somebody showed a funny past. Let's put E5 up here on the screen, where she had put out one of these long screens. It's kind of her classic. Who controls the media? This goes way beyond biased journalists. U.S. Tax Sparism and Billions funding media brought to promote democracy. Media is a key soft power tool used to steer public opinion and culture. Media outlets aren't required to disclose who funds their training. This creates a backdoor journalism training programs. Funders can influence media narratives without transparency. All true. You and I both know that's all true. We're literally a government official working for the United States government and not disclosing it. And you did not disclose that to your readers, while apparently making a shitload ton of money off of these ex subscriptions by some estimates nearly a million dollars per year, which I don't even know how you'd square that with ethics whenever years. I guess special government employee status, you're allowed to make outside income for up to six months, but I put it all together. The whole thing is great. She only has 22 subscriptions. How? I'm not sure. I don't know exactly where the number came from. I apologize if that number was incorrect. I said some estimate. There was some estimate that she was making quite a bit of a sum in some of these. Look, regardless, if people are paying you for your information, you're not disclosing, who is paying you. I think that's pretty egregious. As Ben said, maybe your information system needs perfectionalism. Cultivating that. Dan Osborne standing by. Let's get to it. I can wait four hours for the next bus, or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I choose option B. I'm Julie Piñero, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. Every time I tried to be alone, I kept meaning people, and they were like, "You smiled at us, not a lot of people smile around here." It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is, and not the lies you're sold about it. So whether you're a solo travel veteran, or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is A's Davenport. And Sean Clements. Everyone has a good time, and no one gets mad at their publicists for letting them do our show. This entire time, you've been expecting Adam Sandler to come to visit the show. I would never set expectations for something like that. If the universe allows for something like that to happen, I am open to it. I'm always going to accept, you know, Danny McBride, fine. Yeah, it's all this fragile masculinity, exuding. I could smell it walking on the hallway to be honest with you. I was like, is that what you need? No, it's fragile masculinity. Ben Stiller, no. I think there's a lot of times out of context, people don't get it, or even know what a circle is, you know what I mean? Like, you're like, oh, it's so stupid. Everyone's so dumb. And fake. Right, fake, and also not interested, or just like, oh, I've got my life, I don't care about your life. And a lot of other big shots that wouldn't be where they are without us. Oh, and by the way, Will Ferrell told us personally he loves the show, and he wants to be a guest on every episode, but he's just so busy. Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and health captive for nine months. You just remember, this low-taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced, but these aren't stories about what's taken from them. Their story is about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the survivor files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We wanted to get to this rather extraordinary and controversial move when it came to beef imports from President Donald J. Trump, that is rattling the cattle ranching industry. Last week, let's put up this true social from Donald Trump announcing this deal. I said, today, I concluded a deal to substantially lower the price of ground beef for working American families. As everyone knows, under President Biden, beef prices soared at their fastest rate, and the American beef heard fell to its smallest size in modern history. As we work to rebuild this herd and help our ranchers for the next 90 days, right through the election, coincidentally, the United States will allow up to 300,000 metric tons of product for ground beef to be imported with no out-of-quota tariff. We have a commitment that this beef will be sold at 25 percent below current market prices, which is coincidentally precisely what the tariff is. This deal will reduce prices for Americans, not guaranteed at all, while giving space for our great American beef herd to grow again. So I watched a couple of cattle kind of beef industry podcasts in the wake of this. And that was the line that had them the most confused to put a generous list or enraged that is going to give our giving space for our great American beef herd to grow again. So clearly somebody and the ranchers all assumed that it was JBS, which is a Brazilian beef company, which is a massive donor to the Trump administration because they have some American subsidiaries that can legally donate to American politics. That JBS got in his ear and somebody gave a talking point that this will give them space to grow their herds because they won't be able to sell any of their own cattle. And so the cattle just be out there making love and making more cattle. And how does it actually work? The ranchers like we're all going to go out of business. Like we're all going to quit and a bunch of saying that they've heard from so many people who are like this is the last straw. Like we're out. We don't even see this as a business that we can be in, that our children can grow into, that we cannot compete. What they want, if they want to grow the herd, is some level of certainty that going into the future, there will be a price for their product at which they can sell it and not lose money. Believe it or not. That's how they want to operate a business, not getting no money. And then the herd is just going to magically grow. Like they're like what on earth are you talking about? So then the question is, where is this beef going to come from? Trump was asked here's let's roll F1. Now the presumption is that it's going to come from Brazil and Argentina. That is what all of the kind of cattle industry is assuming. Argentina can send a decent amount. Brazil has most of it ironically. Maybe it won't bother soccer. But the way that Brazil grows its herd is by chopping down the rainforest and turning the rainforest. No, why wouldn't that? Of course it bothers. No, you don't have to be obliterated. There's a lot of work lefty environmentalism or something. What, you got to love the rainforest? To be a limb? I don't think so. And by the way, you go to Florida, the Gulf, and you see all that disgusting red algae type stuff that's destroying the tourism industry in the Caribbean and in Mexico and Florida. A lot of significant amounts that is Saharan dust. Now go pull out your map. The Sahara and Brazil are kind of lateral and it is only because of the rainforest that we don't have a Sahara across there. If we do, good Lord. I would more say this way is that obviously environmental concern is a major concern but it's not the primary concern I guess for me, which is that ultimately is that you can't be a nation which is that can't you can't be a real nation if you can't sustain yourself at a very basic level. And that's effectively what has happened with this. What I read about with cattle is that the herd sizes have been dramatically decreasing for six consecutive years. This year was the first year that it actually was going up. And then what happened is that this undercutting has made it so that they may not be able to make money period and it will extend the losses for enough of time on top of fertilizer, diesel and all these other things that are influencing many of these ranchers farmers which is what's screwing them, basically simultaneously all at the same time. All of that is reflected for the small cattle herd is reflected in the high price. Ultimately like that's what it's about. That's why beef prices have gone where they are to the extent that we need the government intervention. It's to make it so that American cattle ranchers can grow more or can have more cattle in a and have more cattle over a longer period of time in a sustainable fashion to make it so that we have stability of price now and in the future. The other problem is that like you said about the cattle and the beef is not all beef is the same. And look, I got a lot of problems with America's beef industry. I think it's catastrophic the way they're treated, etc. And we could go up and it's a balance because if you treat it better it would cost a lot more fine with me, but not fine for most people because we're in the middle of a beef crisis. So the problem I think is reflected though in that you talked about environmental. There's also care standards with fed quality concern. We've seen slashing in USDA inspection. Are we sure that all of this is going to cover or is going to qualify for that? And if you talk to the American cattle rancher, they often will say, look, you can come after us all you want, like we treat and raise our cattle much more in a much better and healthier way at least for the population of the United States than compared to a lot of these South American producers. So it's like it's a crisis on like every level. And what the South American producers do when they are producing these unhealthy, the Sun Healthy Cattles and they blast them with antibiotics. Right. Exactly. It's legal here and dangerous to human consumption. We can get in that at some moment, but we'll be joined by Dan Osborne, candidate Nebraska, who's you know, it's going to be a big issue. It already is a big issue in the Nebraska race. We can actually jump to and this is related to the Nebraska race. We can jump to F4. The other thing that is driving prices here is that there's this massive consolidation in the meat packer industry. And so and what the meat packers have been doing is they've been strategically shutting down processing facilities around the country. They did it in Nebraska and they in a town of like 10,000 people, this processing facility employed over 3,000 people. And that's you're talking 10,000 men, women and children in this town. So basically the entire town was organized around this processing plant. And the argument that the packers bake as well, there's not enough business coming in. But what actually seems to be going on is that by shutting down this this particular plant and as you saw there, we've seen a massive plant that just shut down in in Illinois, another plant shut down in Pennsylvania, that means that the ranchers who are then need to sell their cattle, they have fewer options to sell it to and they have to travel further so they're willing to take a lower price. So that pushes down the price that again that the ranchers can get for the cattle. And then because there are only a few of these packers, they can then set the price when they sell it to the customer. So they're setting prices when they're buying from the farmers and they're setting prices when they're selling it to us. That's why I said at the beginning when Trump says that importing this 300,000 metric tons is going to lower prices, it doesn't have to, if you have a monopolistic concentrated industry, they can sell they can sell for whatever they want to sell it for. Now, Trump might make some phone calls and kind of jawbone it down for 90 days just to just to get through the midterms, but that obviously is not a long term solution. Now again, now, McGraw and the ag secretary has been fighting against this as have a lot of Republican senators for a very long time and she stopped him from doing this previously. You can tell from this clip here that she's kind of been cut out of the question here. So let's do F2. What's this big country's have been in talks with the U.S. announced stepping up move towards the side from Mexico? I am not privy to talk about that. I think the conversations are still going on and that's Ambassador Greer who's finalizing what exactly that looks like and I think the President's involved in that as well. Always, always good when your ag secretary is not privy. Like the ag negotiations. So then to underscore the politics of this, she's against this. So the fact that she's clueless on this suggests who's winning it. We put up F5 Republican Senator Tim Sheehy from Montana just absolutely losing his mind over this and this relates to nearby Nebraska. So I've advised President Trump against this course of action for a year because American ranchers have been struggling against the pack of monopoly for decades and this will further harm them, most of whom are MAGA Republicans. President's heart is in the right place on wanting lower prices for the American people and beef prices have been impacted by the Mexican screw worm which came up because we stopped monitoring for the screw worm. Thanks Doge. But the reality is this action will make it more difficult for American ranchers to rebuild or hurt and bring down prices for the American people and most importantly this will harm our ranching families who feed the nation Chuck Grassley still a senator despite the loss of his vacuum Beth recently has says after Tyson closure in Illinois last week I'm concerned for the cattle markets and now President Trump's decision to temporarily open up subsidized beef imports. USA cattlemen should that always be put for you. first, through America's first policies, need to keep up progress, fighting through warm and expanding the mess occurred. Those are just a couple of the, of the reactions from these Midwestern and Western senators who just, just appalled at what this is doing to the industry and to people who have supported the president, you know, for a decade now. Exactly. Let's bring in Dan Osborne, give his reaction. So yes, joining us now to discuss is independent Nebraska, Senate candidate Dan Osborne, Dan. Thanks for being here. Really appreciate it. Good to see you, sir. Yeah. Thank you having me on. Yeah. And so this is an issue that you have been focused on throughout your campaign, particularly because of the processing facility that was shut down in Nebraska's Lexington, Nebraska. Is that, is that the town? Yeah. Correct. It's about 3,300 jobs. 3,300 jobs in a town of something like 10,000 people. First of all, let me, let me start with that, like what has been, the, what has, what has happened to the town? Like have you been there since, how is the town, uh, weathering the collapse of its entire industry? Yeah. It's definitely struggling. I mean, it's, it's not just that Tyson plant that's affected, right? It's the, the gas stations, the schools, the churches, the car dealerships. I mean, you think about the hotels, the, the landlords, everything that goes into a town that size, uh, they are definitely, uh, struggling to try to pivot to, uh, find some industry to come in there and to, to help prop it up. Yeah. And I remember at the time you, you were arguing that the, the federal law, I think the stock yards and Packers Act, uh, should come into play because it seemed like the, the Packers were strategically closing the plant in order to manipulate prices, which is against, uh, federal law. Your opponent, Pete Rickett said that he looked into that and decided, uh, that it was not a violation of the law and that he, that it should be treated more like a natural disaster. What has, so what has the federal government done if this was a natural disaster? Uh, abandonment, I suppose would be the, the word for it. I mean, look, Tyson, this is what Tyson does, right, they, they, they've just paid out two lawsuits recently of over $80 million for price fixing, you know, strategically working with other Packers to shut down plants around the country so they could dictate to the producer what they pay for the product all the way to the grocery store, what we pay. And this is just like a, a little fine, it's kind of like the New York Yankees going above the salary cap, it's just a price of doing business for them. So, uh, it's very frustrating and they are breaking the law by not putting that plant up for sale to Tyson to the same thing in Norfolk, Nebraska years ago with a chicken plant that dumped concrete down their drain on the way out so a competitor couldn't buy it. So sir, one thing I'm curious about is you both, you and your opponent both seem to find yourself against this administration's order, uh, on beef. I believe that Senator Rickett says, yeah, he says that this is not a not long term solution flooding the market with lower quality beef compromises, Nebraska farmers and ranchers, they should be enabled to grow herd sizes and meet consumer demand. So what actually sets you apart from Senator Rickett's on this issue? Yeah, I think that, uh, it's, it's, I'm not a rubber stamp, right? That's, that's what, you know, he's rubber stamped everything that's, that's happened up until this point, uh, you know, as governor, he had an opportunity to go after the, the meat packers and like, let's, let's be clear, that's who's going to win in all this, right? Because what happens with foreign beef is it comes up across the border, it goes to the packers, they take the package off from Brazil or Argentina and whatever, they repackage it with a sticker that says USDA. And you know, that's where M Cool is so important, you know, mandatory country origin of labeling. People deserve to know where they're, where their products coming from and the ranchers, they deserve a premium for their premium product that they raise right here in Nebraska. Nebraska's first in beef. So, you know, this issue is going to hit our state pretty hard in an industry that's already been, uh, being hit pretty hard with fires and drought. Yeah, and, and sogar and I were just talking about this before the program, from a consumer perspective, I think neither of us are really interested in, in this kind of Argentinian beef that they're trying to force on us, but it's very difficult to even tell if that's what you're getting. How do I know? So we can put, put up F8 for a second. So the F, FDA, you know, has been reducing the number of, uh, of inspections, uh, may end in, may end some of them, uh, entirely. Meanwhile, you put up, um, F9 here recently, uh, China, uh, rejected a massive shipment of frozen Argentinian, uh, beef that was headed over there because they found, uh, residue of an antibiotic that is illegal to use in the United States. The Chinese don't, don't want it and it can even be, fatal, uh, to humans who even, for even in, in trace amounts. So there's a good reason that we've made this, uh, illegal, but if you're raising the cattle and slaughtering them in, uh, unhealthy, unsanitary circumstances, then you kind of have to blast them with this, um, this kind of illegal antibiotics and other things that these, as far, for an importers are, are using. And then we see F10 and put this up, um, that this is in the state of Florida. Florida announced a recall in earlier in August of like, with something like 20,000, uh, tons of Argentinian beef that was shipped throughout Florida, uh, and Texas for, you know, various problems, uh, that it was having, having, and so, yeah, Dan, just a kind of, as consumers, let's say you, we just, uh, bumped into your bar and we're asking for your expertise and, and this is, like, as consumers, if they're, what people are watching this and they want Nebraska beef, but they don't want this Argentinian stuff, uh, that has god knows what in it. Uh, how, how do, how do you go about figuring that out? That's a great question. I don't, I don't have an answer for that, you know, like I said, it's, it's going to go through the, the meat packers, uh, hopefully, hopefully, uh, the administration does the right thing. Hopefully, uh, our governor here, uh, who is against this transaction, uh, that they, they do do some, uh, country of origin, labeling here, uh, to protect consumers. And this is right on the tail end of, uh, tailor farms and, and, and that is right. And, uh, jalapenos that, that we've already been dealing with. So this is a definitely troubling for consumers. And then we're going to rely on the, the meat sellers, uh, to actually give us a discount if, if we are purchasing that beef, which I'll hold my breath on. Dan, um, curious to your perspective. We read a lot about the American farmer. We hear about how they're under pressure on, under pressure on diesel and fertilizer. And now here, uh, in terms of being undercut on beef, can you just tell us a little about what you're hearing from your, some of your potential constituents? Yeah. The first, the first person I called is a, a rancher friend of mine. And he was like, man, I'll tell you what, this is, this is really frustrating because this is happening at a time where ranchers are taking their product to sell barns and they're selling it. And, and last year, they finally made, uh, you know, a decent amount of money for what their products worth comparatively from, uh, years prior. So our ranchers are, are, are finally starting to turn profits. And he, he told me this is, this is absolutely going to undercut my business at a time where he had to cut his herd in half, uh, from last year because of, uh, the drought that's happening, um, because, you know, they, they, they have to have water and, you know, the, their feed that they have isn't growing near as fast as it should be. So, and then you add on the fires, uh, you know, over a million acres of burned in Nebraska. So, uh, this is a huge problem, but we have to let the market course correct itself. And again, flooding it with foreign beef, uh, is, uh, is a, is a massive mistake for, for our ranchers. And what, what are finished by asking about the, uh, the poll that, uh, was done by your campaign that is now, you know, circulating in the, in Nebraska press, uh, this morning, all kind of shocking and we can maybe add this in post. Uh, it finds you tied head to head, uh, 47% Osborne 47% Ricketts, uh, the rest undecided, it shows you with a 67 to 25% lead, uh, with, with independent voters. Uh, Ricketts is this, the son of a billionaire family. I think they, what do they own the cubs or their own wriggly field or they don't, they don't, they don't, at least each trade or a merit trade. Like it, enormous amounts of money have kind of, uh, rained down onto the Ricketts family, which he's been able to use to spend on, on endless advertising against you. And so you would expect that at this point in the campaign, you'd be a little bit behind. Have you, have you gone up on the air at all yet? Uh, no, my, my campaign has not gone up on the air yet. We're getting out spent six to one. And, uh, you know, his ads are all negative. Uh, 99% lies about me. That's, that's what he does. But, you know, that's, but this, the, the pole reflects the sense that I'm feeling on the ground. Uh, there's a lot of energy. There's a lot of momentum. We're on, and we're in the middle of a 93 county tour going to every single county in Nebraska. We're turning out people that are concerned, uh, for, for many reasons, you know, it's always the economy. It's healthcare. Uh, it's our, it's our farming. It's our ag industry. That's, uh, struggling right now through, through bad tear of policy. Now the war and I ran and people are looking for a change. And again, they're fed up, so he just wrote himself a check for five and a quarter million dollars. He spent three million dollars on this and negative ad campaign he's running. But Nebraska's aren't dumb, they're fed up, and I think it's time for a change. And it's time to give this seat back to the working people in Nebraska where it belongs. >> We watch your campaign with great interest, sir. >> Yeah, thank you guys so much for having me on. Appreciate you. >> We got it. Talk to you soon. >> Okay. >> When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped, and health captive for nine months. >> You just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. >> I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. >> They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. Listen to the survivor files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. >> Hey, this is Ace Davenport. >> And Sean Clements. >> We host the podcast, Hollywood Handbook, on the Big Money Players Network. >> Our show is extremely accessible to first-time listeners. >> We've had a lot of great guests like Sarah Sherman, not that great. >> Can you help me shape this? How about we flip this around, okay? What is the surprise one, then? Actually, you think as the straight man is actually the one who's acting weird. >> Adam Scott, this entire time, you've been expecting Adam Sandler to come to visit the show. >> I would never let go of that. >> I would never set expectations for something like that. >> It's like if the universe allows for something like that to happen. >> I am open to it. >> I'm always going to accept, you know. >> Danny McBride, fine. >> Yeah, it's all this fragile masculinity exuding. Nope, it's fragile masculinity. Ben's still or no? I think there's a lot of times out of context, people don't get it, or even know what a circle is. >> I think they're so stupid. >> Everyone's so dumb. >> I hate fake. >> And fake. >> Right, fake and also not interested or just like, oh, I've got my life, I don't care about your life. >> And a lot of other big shots that wouldn't be where they are without us. >> Oh, and by the way, Will Ferrell told us personally he loves the show and he wants to be a guest on every episode, but he's just so busy. >> On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I choose option B. >> I'm on a mission to reclaim the word Solita, trading the pity for possibility. >> Every time I try to be alone, I kept meaning people, and they were like, you smiled at us, not a lot of people smile around here. >> It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it. >> All right, that was Senator Dan Osborne, and actually maybe we can add that little thing if we were still recording in post. We asked him. >> He didn't know. >> He didn't know. >> We asked him as he was leaving for his thoughts on Dally Parton, and a touching thing, but the thing about Dally Parton, it's the only universal thing left in the United States. I think we have this incredible side by side, which we genuinely are never going to get again in our lives. So you have on the one side, Democratic Socialists of America, DSA extends our deepest condolences to the family, friends, and fans of Dally Parton, a hero of the working class and an inspiration to us all. And then next to it, Donald J. Trump, very sad to report that Dally Parton, one of the greatest country singers and far beyond ever has just passed away. This is a true loss for millions of people. There's never been anyone like her and never will. In her honor, I am lowering the American flag throughout the United States for a one-week period, beginning tonight at 6 p.m., rest in peace, Dally, the world loves you. To have both DSA and Donald Trump memorializing the figure. So I wanted to finish this with one line from a song of Dally Parton that has always stuck with me for how profoundly it captures the experience of poverty in America, and it gets at her ability to relate to a country that is so kind of steeped in it and has such a complicated relationship with it. And so here's how I described it, then running into the quote itself. I wrote, and this is from We've Got People, there's nothing simple about the experience of poverty, a trauma that manifests in people in many different ways. It is also that rare experience that people work hard to obscure in real time, yet almost universally tend to exaggerate later in life. There's a deep shame in being poor, yet great pride in having been poor, a contradiction that was best put into words by Dally Parton in her song, "In the Good Old Days, When Times Were Bad." The chorus goes, "No amount of money could buy from me the memories that I have of then. No amount of money could pay me to go back and live through it again." It really gets at the essence of so much about America and the way that as we're living, as we're poor, we do everything we can to pretend that we're not. And then later, when we're looking back at it, we have deep pride in it, and many people will even exaggerate how poor they were. I think what I respect about Dally was not only her music, nine to five, obviously, like a working anthem, I think, for a lot of America, but for her, she embodied this person who both came from her area, she never abandoned her roots to the community. She donated millions of dollars to the people directly around her and kind of always used her platform to enrich or to at least help the people who she always felt like she owed her career to. And to the extent that that's admirable for rich people in this country, it's ultra admirable at a time like now, where what has Sam Altman done for San Francisco? What have any of these people done? At least Carnegie had the D.C. to build us a library, which is now an Apple store here in Washington, which makes me cry. It's crazy. I love that. You know, you can go to the JP Morgan Museum in New York City. Can you go to the Altman exhibit to the Amadei, to the Jamie Dimon, it's like none of them. And sure, they're way whitewash their money. Exactly. We get the Gates Foundation. Yeah, the Gates Foundation, which is like God, who even knows, you know, terms of the conspiracy behind that one. But just more broadly, there's just something so deeply American and admirable about I came from this place. I know these people, I'm going to use whatever I have to actually take care of them. To sing on behalf of them and to try and use that platform. And so she'll not see her like again. In 2020, I took the kids to Dollywood. Oh, nice. It's spectacular. I'm using a park. I know people loved it. And in it, they have a complete, accurate rendition of the home that she grew up in. Wow. That, to me, is the most memorable part of it. You can probably just Google, just then find an image of it. It's incredible because it's this one room home. So if she was 80, you know, 1940s, you know, electrification was barely. Yeah, I know. I don't know. People have no comprehension of what poverty looked like. Pre-1966. This one room home where there were like eight to 10, you know, fluctuating members of the family, basically people sleeping, sitting up, spending the entire day outside, because there's just no wear inside like look, look that place up. That's where she came from. She never forgot it and she never forgot the people and the way that it, the way that it shaped her. All right. Pete Dolly. I won't see another person like. No, we won't. Thank you guys so much for watching. We appreciate it. I'll show for everybody tomorrow. See you then. [MUSIC] Hey, this is Hayes Davenport and Sean Clements. We host the podcast. Hollywood Handbook. Each week, we talk to someone in show business and try to help them with their careers and see what they have to offer us. We've had a lot of great guests like Sarah Sherman, Adam Scott, Danny McBride, Ben Stillert, and a lot of other big shots that wouldn't be where they are without us. I'm Munga Shateekeler and I'm back with a new season of my podcast Skyline Drive. This time I talked to scientists, biopunks, cormugins, blues owners, super seniors, and go as top cryotherapy lab to try to understand this obsession with living forever and what it means for all of us. I'd say probably start bone smashing, but those are more to make you look more defined. They say it works. I don't know. Listen to Skyline Drive, how to live forever on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a new podcast, Solita. We share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering the ride on his motorcycle. I choose option B. Listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast, Guaranteed Human.