Speaker 1Hey, what's happening? Welcome back to the James Kennedy podcast. Thanks for joining us once again. How awesome was Professor Mark Gagliotti last week? My mind was blown as I hope yours was as well. What a fascinating chat. If you haven't checked that one out yet, please do go back and give it a listen. But you know, I like to keep this thing varied and explore a whole range of different issues and subjects as and when we goddamn feel like it. So this week we're switching gears and we are jumping in with both feet into the urgently important issue of men's mental health, mental health more broadly, and more than likely delving into the issue of masculinity, our changing society, and hopefully we'll get into what we can do to make any of it any better and keep things moving in the right direction. And I can think of no one better to have that particular conversation with than today's guest, because I'm here today with George Bell, a writer, co-founder of the popular online community for men's issues, Jack, and the author of a brand new book coming out this very week called Be a Man About It, Building a Healthier Idea of Masculinity. George, thanks so much for being here, brother. How the
Speaker 2hell are you doing? Hey, James. Yeah, good to be here. Thanks for having me. I feel good. I feel good. I feel obviously it's a big week, books coming out, you know, there's a lot of emotions with that pride and terror and anxiety and the rest of it. But my first copies have literally just arrived. So I've had my my books have arrived today. Nice big box of them. So, yeah, still just kind of literally as we record this now, I'm still feeling the emotions of seeing, you know, my first book for the first time. So, yeah, I think it's an interesting one because, you know, obviously personally and professionally for me, it's a really big thing. My first book, I feel really proud about that. And also there's this feeling of, you know, the subject matter. It's, you know, it's not like a sort of fiction book about fantasy or whatever. It's a nonfiction book about what's happening to men and, you know, how too many men, uh, losing their lives, you know, too, too soon or too early. So I think I'm also holding that emotion of, you know, professional pride and also kind of, I don't know what the word is, but like, you know, I know this book is needed and I know these conversations are needed. So there's,
Speaker 1there's a sort of, um, yeah, sense of responsibility, maybe pressure. Yeah. I think that's, that's the right one. Yeah. Well, mate, we are going to talk all about the book and the contents within it, uh, throughout the rest of the conversation and kudos to yourself for this issue as well in a book form, because, you know, men, unfortunately are not, um, for reasons I'm sure we're going to explore, you know, usually at the forefront of, um, talking about these sorts of issues. So I think just the fact that you've done it is amazing and urgently needed. But before we unpack all that stuff, um, I thought maybe we could start with just getting a little bit of background on your personal journey with this stuff. You know, what's your personal connection to the issue? Um, how did you get started with exploring this?
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think in some ways it's probably the most important question to, that we can, we can go through here. And I do think it is really important because, you know, I've, I've, I've written this book because of a very personal story and a very personal journey. And I think it's really important for people to know that because, you know, I know that my story is not necessarily unique. I know that men all around the world will be able to relate to it. So I think that's why it's so important. You know, I've not just written this book just for the sake of it, or just to try and fill up bookshelves. It's, it's come from a, from a real, real place. And, and for me, that was the, just over 10 years ago, I was making plans to take my own life. So I was in a really difficult spot, really, really challenging spot. Um, obviously, yeah, grappling with a real mental health issue there. I was, it was depression, anxiety, and that culminated in these, these suicidal thoughts. So, you know, really, really difficult, difficult period there. And I think, you know, without going too much, maybe it's the mental health issue side of things, which obviously is a big part of the story, the big part of it, the other big part of it. And, you know, what's pertinent to this conversation is there was a masculinity part to that, that story as well. And it arguably the bigger part of that story, really, I think at the time, I didn't realise that, but in subsequent years of going through therapy and recovery and all the rest of it, I realised how big a part of the story that is. And the reason for that is because almost my sense of masculinity or what I thought it meant to be a man that kind of created the like foundations where I then ended up struggling. And then when I was struggling, I didn't reach out and I didn't do anything about it. You know, I didn't, I didn't just sort of wake up one day and then I was depressed and anxious and had suicidal thoughts. You know, these things, it was like, there was a journey and it was made worse because of, because of the silence, this sort of self-imposed silence. And, you know, I had, I had a really good network around me, great family, great friends, I had a supportive girlfriend, you know, on paper, I had that support network. And I told no one, I told none of them what was going on. You know, even my girlfriend that I was sharing a bed with every night knew nothing about, about what was going on, you know, in, in, in my head. And I think that, you know, we'll obviously get into, get into all this, but I think that that's really sad. That's really, really sad. When I, when I look back on that, like, I feel sad for myself back then. And then I feel sad for the men that I know are still in this position now, but yeah, I just, I just didn't think I could talk about it. I didn't know how to talk about it. I didn't know what was going on. Didn't have the language. Didn't think I had a right to talk about it. Didn't think I could because I'd be, you know, shunned and shamed and, and that's not what men do. And yeah, I think I just thought that kind of, if I ignore it, it will go away. And, and I, I sort of played into the masculine code of suppression and silence and yeah, stuff like that. You know, it didn't, it didn't, you know, obviously it didn't make stuff go away and yeah, got, got to a real crisis point and yeah, you know, I had to, I had to then work on the mental health issue side of stuff, but I've had to also then sort of deconstruct and rebuild my sense of masculinity over the last few years as well, because as I said, I think that was almost
Speaker 1the cause of, of where I ended up. That's so interesting, man. I can relate on so many ways as well. I mean, I've had very similar journeys myself. What was the turning point for you then overcoming that to a degree in seeking help? Because that, that's a massive one, isn't it? You know, for us men, what was the turning point for you?
Speaker 2Yeah. So my, my girlfriend at the time that I mentioned, she called me out for abnormal behavior. I'd, I'd become very cold and withdrawn and distant and pretty emotionless, I think, which obviously is really, really hard for a partner who, you know, wants love and time and attention, all the rest of it. So she called me out. She said something like, you're so cold and distant sometimes, which was like a sort of slap to the face in a way, because that's not in my character. I think that's not, that's not who I want to be. I want to be, you know, warm and someone that people enjoy to be around. And I think up until that point, I felt like I was keeping the two worlds quite separate of what I was really feeling. And then out in public, I was making sure I kind of fit into the masculine code of happy and jovial and confident and all the rest of it. I think when she said that, you know, that it sort of tore that veil down. It was, it was obviously clear very quickly that the two worlds were, were sort of merging. So yeah, I think I just felt confronted with it and, you know, fair play to her. She wasn't going to let me off the hook. She, you know, she said that and then let that, she let that hang there. She, she was just staring at me. She wasn't, she wasn't going to kind of let me off the hook. So I just, I just said something. I don't, I don't really remember exactly what it was. I think it was something like, I feel weird or something's going on in my head. It was very inarticulate, which is fine. I think that's, that's the only language I had for it back then. I didn't know I had a mental health issue or any of that, but the important thing is I said something, you know, I, for the first time ever on this issue, I had voiced it and someone else knew. Again, I don't remember the conversation we had after. I think it was awkward and I don't know. But it was, it was out in the open. And then she later went and told my mum, which I was angry about at the time, very grateful for now. Both of them were instrumental then of, of stepping in, getting me to go and see a doctor, getting a diagnosis, getting into treatment. And then, you know, it was just a journey from there, therapy and all the rest of it. But it really started with, you know, a woman and then two women kind of intervening and yeah, sort of forcing me to, to open up in a way. And that really killed it. Kicked started the, the journey of recovery.
Speaker 1Well, amen to that, man. And, you know, kudos and hats off to the, the, the strong women in your life that helped to support you in that direction, because, you know, just taking that first step is, is often the hardest, but you know, the most powerful one that we can take. So what forms of treatment did you explore? Which ones did you try? Which ones did you resonate with? Which ones did you stick with?
Speaker 2Yeah, it was a real, it was a real journey. I think, I think journey is the right word because it wasn't like I went to doctor and I was like, here's what's going on with me. And then it was like, right, here's your plan. Stick to that. You'd be better in two, you know, two weeks or whatever. And I think I, I approached it in that way at first. I had to overcome that. Again, you know, that was my sense of masculinity as a way. I took a very man, manly approach to it of, you know, DIY, quick fix, like surely it'll be done in a couple of weeks. Not that big a deal. I had to, I had to, and also actually, I think the big part is I was fighting against myself. So the emotions that I was feeling particularly, you know, depression, anxiety, that difficult emotions, I was i was the way i saw it was like i was at war with myself and i remember at the time i had a really strong feeling of like wanting to almost crush the depression and crush the anxiety right like like it was like an invading an invader yes i get that yeah that just made everything worse because you know these these things are are still emotions and they're still a part of us and they're still they're there for a reason trying to try to tell us something but i you know i fought back against that narrative for for a long long time i remember someone i think it might have been the doctor recommended this book to me it's called um self-help for your nerves by claire weeks you know she's sold millions of copies of it i think it's like a it's like a worldwide you know best-selling book she obviously knows what she's talking about i read the book and i was like bullshit because she you know she said how you've got to slow down and you know work with your anxiety and that's how you kind of recover and i remember the time i was like i'm not listening to this nonsense like i'm not i'm not you know i'm not listening to this nonsense like i'm not listening to this nonsense like i'm not working with my anxiety stuff stuff didn't get better so i you know i i eventually had to learn to kind of go slow with this stuff and work with what was going on and pay attention to what it was telling me so i think that was a big part of it um i did try medication i tried three different types of antidepressants i didn't gel with them so i i asked the doctor to come off them um i know plenty of people who you know have taken them still take them life-saving stuff i think for me yeah it affects everyone differently for me i just felt like it stripped everything all my emotion away so i didn't feel as bad anymore but i just felt nothing and it was a really really scary feeling so yeah i came off them therapy um i started i started with cbt and which is cognitive behavioral therapy uh it's it's one of the more sort of like modern therapies i guess you call it and it the whole sort of premise of it is you can you can get rid of your anxiety and you can change your thoughts and your behaviors which changes how you feel so um it's very it's very interesting and it's generally a shorter kind of period of of therapy generally speaking i think i was attracted to that because again as a man i was like okay it's more practical it's shorter it's changing my behaviors i don't have to kind of dredge up the past loads and all this sort of stuff so i did that which was really helpful for me that was really really helpful for me i think i had i only had about two months worth of sessions and then i you know took a load of tools from that and and learnings and then i implemented that like daily i was i was i was like religious with it it it was my main priority every day it was just focusing on those tools there's all kinds of different stuff i was doing like there's like journaling stuff and all this and you know i was like taking a notebook with me everywhere i went i'd go out with my mates it was like it was winter at this point i got my mates to have my journal in my pocket and i was like i'm gonna go out with it well i need to do anything on train so i was just absolutely religious with it because i really really wanted to get better so i think that that combination of of that learned to slow down understanding more of my emotions i was telling people at this point you know i told i told my girlfriend at the time and my mom neither of them had run away and and shamed me so i i sort of learned i could tell people when my world wouldn't wouldn't collapse in on itself so i think that combination of of yeah telling people therapy um understanding myself better and and time together was was the sort of the the like medicine i needed i guess and then you know i got i got i got better and i went traveling and stuff for a bit which is which was cool um but i went back to therapy a few years later not not in a period of crisis but i i got into a new relationship with my partner who i'm still with now and a bunch of stuff just came up for me that was you know i was like i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this and i was like well there's there's quite a lot here and i could feel like related threads to what i'd some of this place i've been in before so that's when i being i want to say older and wiser i was like okay i should you know i should get ahead of this one um so that's when i went to therapy and i went to like psychotherapy so specifically i wanted to to go deep and do the that was really useful and and transformational for me because i think then that's when i really went into you know what what what does it mean for me to be a man and some of the stuff that's impacted me throughout my life you know right back to childhood and and how my sense of being a man and masculinity as part of that has has caused me to feel certain ways which you know caused this crisis if you know a few years ago and and you know maybe has has caused some stuff to keep coming up so i think yeah that that was work that came a few years later and i think um and was and was deeper you know and and is all part of the journey um did you do any physical
Speaker 1things as well because obviously there's a there's a huge interconnectivity in the physiology of this thing you know between the physical and the mental did you did you explore things like meditation or exercise or going to the gym or or anything more physically orientated
Speaker 2yeah good point actually i've yeah i missed some of the just the sort of more like basic stuff quote-unquote i was i was doing then as well so yeah i i just for me i just went walking like like that that was good for me and you know a lot long long time like hour two hours a day i i should say i was living with my parents at the time and i'd i had quit my job just i just wasn't in a good enough place to hold it down so i so you know i was i was in a situation where i was somewhat uh fortunate i guess where you know i was able to to kind of live at home my parents didn't have sort of kids or anything like that sort of responsibility so i was able to be really really quite ruthless and you know i was able to kind of live at home with my parents with my recovery um but you know i guess even even if i was working i would have had to just try and build this stuff in in different ways but yeah for me i you know walking i think was really really important i got out of the house i left my phone at home could try and sort of clear my head a little bit um you're just out and moving so i think that was a really big one for me i really worked on my diet i think i'd i'd not i just graduated from university when i when all uni students diets are notoriously unhealthy musicians yeah and you know i i think i just hadn't i'd never had the it sounds ridiculous now but i'd never had the proper education around diet and gut you know the gut mind sort of um relationship so you know i just there was just i was just putting stuff into my body that that was impacting me in different ways a lot of alcohol a lot of coffee junk food ready meals like not much organic whole foods so of course that's going to make me feel worse and more anxious so i was really careful around that like i cut out alcohol for a bit i cut out coffee um really focused on like my fruit and veg and you know trying to cut out ready meals and stuff like that so you know i think what's really challenging with mental health is you you can't it's really hard to point to the thing that that made a difference or even say how much difference it made you know it's not like you you know twist your ankle or break a leg or whatever you you have your things and they know they can sort of know which is going to do which bit of healing at what point we never know with this stuff i did try some meditation for example i didn't really gel with it was it making a difference maybe it was i don't know um but i think it's just you know you you find the combination of stuff that you think
Speaker 1feel makes you feel a bit better yeah yeah it's like trying i think you have to do the trial and error to a certain extent like it's just music to my ears because i've also done all of those things as well and some of them work to me other others didn't but for me i yeah it's a personal prescription isn't it that you have to kind of put together for yourself you have to try all these things and you know see what works you know and um walking i think is a pretty universal one and leaving the phone at home just having space to yourself to disconnect from the noise and the chaos of the world in your life i think that seems to be a pretty universal one yeah it is and i
Speaker 2think but i think for men it's it's uh i think it's one they don't always approach in the right way because i think and i'll explain because it sounds ridiculous like it's just walking right but i think it's it's like men always a lot of men always want to be busy so a lot of men will tell you that they they do go for walks they go for walks a lot but i guarantee it's with a podcast in or it's with music in or it's texting or it's something like and you know obviously people listen to stuff that's fine but i think the deeper issue with men a lot of men is they don't know how to sit with their own thoughts and their own boredom and their own feelings or it makes them really scared if they're doing uncomfortable so i think it's a pretty universal one and i think it's a pretty i think that a lot of men just don't sit with what's going on and also they're kind of conditioned not to like we're told as men to be a man you should be busy right busy and successful and i'm sure you do stuff exactly yeah like you you will have met the same you know same people who they they almost tell you how busy they are and it it has a way of kind of communicating their masculinity well i'm one of them dude yeah i mean that that's that's me yeah we all do right like oh you know if someone asked me this week like how's the book stuff going i'm not gonna go ah you know i'm not doing much you know you're gonna you want to kind of communicate you're busy right but i think i think when we dig into that it you know it's clear why we do that because we're told that busyness equals success and success equals you know you're a real man so i think i think that yeah a lot of men don't know how to sit with with what's going on with themselves and i think i think when you you really think about that that i know i wasn't doing that back then you know but in or i haven't done for a long, long time. I'd get on a train, I'd have to be doing something. I couldn't just sitting out the window so it became really important to go for walks but without my phone and to actually just kind of sit with or walk with what was coming up and what feelings I was feeling and what my thoughts were so I think that's that's the really really crucial part of
Speaker 1that's fascinating I haven't gotten to that stage yet it's hard what what happens when you do that
Speaker 2the idea of that terrifies me yeah like exactly and I think that's that's why that's why it's like so powerful I think and right you know it's it's it's not easy like it it's funny like it sounds ridiculous it sounds ridiculous when you say it's not easy to leave your phone at home and go for a walk but I think that shows and this is so much what I focus on in my book it actually just shows the sort of decades of cultural conditioning that we're working against with this stuff right like it's the same with you know a lot of the messaging around men's mental health in recent years has been to say to men you know just talk just go and talk again sort of maybe missing the fact that actually for decades men have been conditioned to not talk so it's not the case of just saying the thing and then it's easy to do so I think it's the same with this with this kind of thing but I would say just start small and you see what see what comes up what comes up yeah stop I mean you know start really small like if you want to pop downstairs to grab yourself a coffee you know a lot of people will just grab the phone instinctively put it in your pocket just leave it upstairs and just just kind of see how it feels going down there without that and just being with your thoughts and and then you kind of expand it out can you go to the local coffee shop and then can you go for a you know a 10 minute walk and just thinking about
Speaker 1that makes my chest tight isn't that isn't that so bizarre like I don't even know what about that freaks me out I mean I'm sure you probably delved in into that but my physical reaction to just the imagining doing that I don't even know what about that freaks me out I mean I'm sure you probably
Speaker 2nothing it's bizarre yeah and yeah and sit sitting with your thoughts and feelings because that's everything that we have as men have been taught to never do so it's yeah yeah yeah well how did
Speaker 1the men in your life react then because you know as you mentioned the people that got you on this track were both women but when you were on the journey and you know you're going out with your mates and you're taking your journal with you like you mentioned and you're starting to you know talk more openly about these things uh what was the reaction you got from your you know your male was it what you were expecting you know kind of a pushback a kind of a macho you know man up and banter and things like that or were you like pleasantly surprised yeah I was definitely
Speaker 2surprised that it wasn't you know I I'd kind of catastrophized this situation of how I was going to almost be neglected and and you know I'll have all this banter fly my way and all this kind of stuff and that that that didn't come so I think that that was that was a nice surprise um I I I say nice surprise but you know when I look back now it was it was just my kind of anxiety that was making up these scenarios I you know I knew they're a really good group of guys so I knew there wasn't going to be kind of ill will there I think what what came from it and I think what's really important to say for a lot of groups is that it was everyone dealt with it really well but it was it was it was a bit awkward and you know people didn't know what to say and it was the first time a lot of people had been confronted confronted with something like that and I think it was a bit of like oh oh sorry you know sorry mate and yeah you know should we just go grab a drink or something yeah so it and I wasn't expecting this but it wasn't like someone sat me down then I'd you know get a half an hour free therapy session for my mate so I think I had to learn that you know they were there to sort of they were there as like a support structure but you know I had to do the work myself but I think you know just knowing that they were there and that I think it it almost helps you to keep going maybe with yeah helps to keep going um you know I didn't get any I didn't get any hate or anything like that I got you know I got I got a couple of comments in a way I think where people just didn't understand it they were just you just see like hold on but you're always out and laughing so what's you know I got a bit of that but I think yeah no kind of ill will which I I just feel is is the case for for most people that 100% there is such a good network around people and you know I know it might come in different forms different sizes for people but I think we as a society have demonized mental health and demonized emotions and almost made out you know we told people they shouldn't talk about them
Speaker 1but every you know we all go we're all going through stuff like and for men this is a serious issue as well this is no joke I mean correct me if uh if I'm quoting the out-of-date figures here but is it true that it's still the leading cause of death for all men under 50 and is suicide yeah in the UK yeah that's horrific man I mean that you know that proves that this is clearly not just some fringe issue that only affects you know certain men that perhaps need to man up or something you know this is a massive massive problem yeah it's one of the leading
Speaker 2causes of death worldwide um suicide in men is greater than in women in pretty much if not every single country around the world so it's it's and then uh every minute of every single day a man takes his own life somewhere around the globe so you know this is it's a global issue that we're dealing with it's not it's not just like one country or you know one culture it really is a global issue um and I think that we yeah I don't think we focused on it enough it's not just mental health as well by the way you know that there's there's scary stats around men in their more men are dying from or more like type of cancer cardiovascular disease they've got a shorter lifespan than women um more like to be homeless have an addiction fall behind in education um lose their job commit crime be a victim of crime it's it's I think actually when you when you take the data and obviously there's a lot of reasons why this stuff can happen it's not it's not you can't just paint one linear line to it but actually when you look at the broader picture around men in you know health and life and work it's quite it's a it's a worry it is a worrying of stuff going on that i think we've we we sort of missed and not talked about and there there is definitely sort of real reasons for this and and i think none of this is is to take away from where we've had you know where we've been focusing in recent years feminism and lgbtq plus all that kind of stuff all that stuff is still really really important and crucial i think for me what's important this is it's just and also recognizing that there is a real challenge going on with men right i think we've maybe sort of assumed that because men have had all this you know unearned privilege for so long and always been at the top that they're just doing all right and we've sort of forgotten that that that kind of privilege at the top isn't shared equally down down the ladder and yeah there are a lot of men struggling in a lot of different areas now brilliantly put man
Speaker 1and that leads nicely into the next question because i want to sort of steer us now in specifically to the issue of masculinity because i know that is a central theme to your book as well as your own personal journey and before we get into the kind of hows and the whys of that state of flux that masculinity you know may be in right now due to the um you know the much needed um societal changes that we're going through what is your feeling on where we're at currently you know are there rays of hope coming through the cracks or are we far far behind where we need to be on this conversation i think it's a bit of both is
Speaker 2is is what i'm sat with i definitely there's definitely rays of hope i think let's you know let's start with that it's definitely rays of hope we're here talking about it now my book's been published on the subject i mean you know publishers of businesses they they pop they have to publish stuff that they think is going to sell if there wasn't going to be people that would buy this they wouldn't they wouldn't publish it there is clearly an appetite for the conversation we're seeing more celebrities talk about it it's coming out in the news more so you know i i feel i feel hopeful around that i really really do and then i think i think that we're still quite immature in the we're in the immature phase around this conversation i don't think we've reached the point where we're having really healthy expanded conversations on this stuff like i think if it is this is starting to change but i think generally if you see masculinity talked about in the media it just focuses on on extremes so you know you've got these sort of harmful influences and you've got stories of the most violent and dangerous and aggressive men and all that is a really really important part of the conversation but it is only one part and it's an extreme and i think our counter to that in recent years has just been to say to men you just need to cry more which you know just it's okay to cry which is you know there's a important message in there but that is also another extreme yes and i think that's that's basically been the conversation it's been very binary very just extremes and i think actually if you take most men like most sort of you know good men they don't align themselves with this really extreme sense of masculinity sort of violent sense yeah but they also don't actually want to be you know overly emotional all the time they understand it but they don't it's not how they want to be all the time yeah i think if we don't if we can't have a more sort of nuanced conversational masculinity we're actually going to miss miss a lot of men and i think and there is also still a narrative of you know we how dare we sort of talk about men and masculinity when there's so much else still going on in the world you know i've had it myself just just talking about my book i've had stuff from people being like essentially like how do you think you have a right to talk about men when there's still stuff going on for women or other groups and i think i think that is still there's still a real sense there's still a lot of anger and frustration and all that kind of stuff floating around and i think that leads to a place of us versus them a zero-sum game mindset yeah yeah and that's still very very present and that is that is a real barrier to progress with this conversation i've i've had to spend so much of my time like having to sort of justify why i think this conversation is important and other conversations are important rather than just getting into the actual conversation and getting to the parts of helping people so i think all of that is is there meaning that yeah there's hope and i think we have some maturing to do around how we have this conversation excellently
Speaker 1yeah i totally agree with you man um so why then do you think there is such a resurgence in appeal with a version of masculinity that's kind of outdated now you know why are we seeing a resurgence of the strong man you know um donald trump andrew tate putin farage you know tommy robinson you know these kind of tell it like it doesn't get shit done get it guys no matter who you gotta stomp all over you know the lone cowboy out there you know opposing his uh his macho will on the world um why is that making a resurgence and why is it still appealing to so many men yeah i mean they've you know that they've
Speaker 2they've been the type of men that have always been popular right that they're the the the the form they take might change but they're always the men that are successful and they have money and they have women around them and they're strong and whatever that that's been the sort of form that it's always taken throughout history it's just maybe you know changed a little bit these days with social media influencers and stuff i think yeah they they fit the traditional masculine code perfectly of of what men have been told they should aspire to have right in order to be a man so yeah you see you're andrew tate's who yeah he's working out he's strong he's got women around him he's got this money and and that's what a lot of boys and men have been told you do that and you're a man basically so i think i think that is you know that is one part of the the challenge i think another part of it which i don't have sort of hard stats around this but i've i've read reports from like charity workers and teachers who who are working with you know boys in schools and they they kind of say that the because of this narrative around men which we we just touched on where there's this this sort of this narrative that focuses on extremes i think particularly in in the media where we've we focused on the most extreme versions of of men and we we talk a lot about toxic masculinity and i think people use that phrase some people use that phrase unhelpfully and it's become like a blanket catch-all term for masculinity gender masculinity yeah and what that's done is is pushed a bunch of people away because you know you know we're humans we want to feel we want to feel pride we want to feel good in ourselves yeah any of the message you're getting all the time is that you know you're bad you're broken you're wrong and then you've got you know enter enter sort of stage right you've got these people who whether rightly or wrongly make men feel proud to be a man right you can see why it's a seductive message you know i think it is obviously important to there is individual accountability in this as well and i think it's a very important thing to i think you know it's not it's not a case of like boys and men are just getting completely sucked in over to these messages they are also choosing to to kind of listen to this stuff so i think that is an important part but we can see how we've cultivated the situation where these messages are being surfaced more the algorithm is rewarding them as well they reward this extreme you know clickbaity sense of content so i think we've created a situation where you know a lot of men a lot of men and boys are feeling displaced their sort of role in society is is changing which you know is is right and is needed we've needed a rebalance and you know more equality in society i think that's everyone you know all decent people would agree with that and obviously you know that has caused some displacement in in men and i think they've not maybe been given or told the the sort of new way or new position to to fill i think if you look at feminism in recent years they've had sort of a clear you know clear goal clear message and i think that's a very important part of the of empowerment and equality and justice and i think we've maybe not got that same message from men so i think a lot of men are like what do i do and where do i everyone's telling me i'm bad and toxic i've got these influences over here that the algorithm keeps showing me that are telling me i can feel good about myself i think when you put all that together and oh that's actually what i meant to be as a man because that's what i was taught growing up i think you can see how we've kind of got into a situation of like a perfect storm right bunch of stuff all kind of happening at the same time and you know there are there are good good people out there good men out there there are men talking about you know emotional vulnerability and compassion and community and and you know being allies to women and all that kind of stuff the algorithm just doesn't want to
Speaker 1reward that as much sadly yeah i totally agree with you man but the tagline to your book is building a healthier idea of masculinity so what in your words is a healthier idea of masculinity
Speaker 2so i think for me it's really important that you know it's not there's not just like a seven point you know seven bullet point checklist here that i reel off and everyone goes and does that and then you know you're there because that's not that's not how we work as humans right everyone everyone's different and unique and you know we're built differently and everyone has they value different things in different ways like you know for me you know i don't i don't love the gym and this sort of you know huge sense of physicality it's just not something that's that's that important to me because i know for a lot of men it really is you they would say that it's a massive part of their masculinity and you know i think that it's that kind of thing that's maybe almost been labeled toxic in recent years where you then lose men so i think it it's it's recognizing that different people want different things but for me what what makes it healthy is when we can all have an expanded sense of masculinity so you know we recognize that masculinity isn't as narrow and rigid as we've made it like i think we've just made it into this thing that is be strong be independent be powerful be successful don't talk about your emotions there you go you're a man forgetting the fact that a lot of stuff which we typically typically label feminine traits things like compassion and empathy and emotional expression it's just part of being human you know that they it's not it's not a sex specific thing it's it's a human specific thing we all have them within us you know if we didn't need them as men if we didn't need emotions as men i'm sure they would have been stamped out of us from you know evolutionary point of view at some point so i think it's just recognizing that we can expand our sense of masculinity we can lean into and value stuff from the traditional sense you know it's it's okay to want to be strong and powerful and independent and and to have times where you want to be you know resilient and show grit and toughness and whatever that's absolutely fine and i think it's recognizing that within us we all have yeah this you know emotions and the need to express them and you know we need other humans we need to be able to be able to be able to be able to connect and have a community around us and all that kind of stuff at what point we lean into what traits and to how much is you know is is subjective and and will be different throughout our lives but it's just it's just recognizing that and you know i think recognizing that we're all humans and you know you have to have respect to other humans and you know that includes you know we're equal with women and i think being able to take accountability over our mistakes as well i think all of that together is is just being a decent human and and for me that that's what healthy sense of masculinity like is like is recognizing that yeah as men as humans we're far more expansive than than we've perhaps made ourselves in recent years amen brilliantly put
Speaker 1brother so what can we do as men within our society to promote this healthier idea of masculinity you know along with and amongst our fellow men our brothers our sons our friends
Speaker 2how do we move this forward yeah so if we if we start with kind of better emotional awareness i think that's that's the sort of foundation and not not only to focus on the emotional side because you know we've already touched on a lot of men that that's not the whole message that they'll relate to but i think we have to start with that and you know to what level we do that will be different for different people and i'm not saying people will listen to this then immediately they're you know they're completely in touch with their emotions and they understand them all and all the rest of it but i think if you if you can just shift your mindset to realize that emotions are natural they're normal you know it's biological this this stuff predates us by hundreds of thousands of years like you know we've only been around for you know i've only been around for a few decades like who am i to come in and say you know try and doubt biology that's predated me for so long so i think it's it's recognizing that we're dealing here with you know we're not we're not dealing with uh sort of subjective opinion we're dealing with like science and biology so just recognizing that emotions are normal and whatever's there is there for a reason it might feel weird talking about it and we you know i'm not saying we're immune to it but i'm not saying we're immune to it but i'm not saying we're immune going to be able to go talk about it but just recognize that they are there for a reason and don't you don't fight them i think that's sort of the bedrock and then from that i think that's how you can start to build healthier connections with people and you know real connections with people and yeah you know talk about the real stuff i think i think we need to be able to have better conversations around everything that that men go through every day and that's work that's that's parenthood that's relationships and friendships that's alcohol and drugs and nights out it's sex it's you know porn use gambling all this kind of stuff i think hair loss there's there's all sort of all sorts of conversations in there which feel taboo feel shameful they're so wrapped up in emotions that we avoid them and so men just kind of struggle with this stuff in silence and you'll probably have a friendship group where people are experiencing the same thing or at least they're you know all going through something but they feel like they can't talk about it so i think the more we can just actually normalize those conversations and have those conversations however inarticulate they might be like i said you know when i first opened up my conversations weren't articulate but i'd started and then that meant i talked to more people and then we all as a group sort of our emotional articulous you know literacy level kind of leveled up yes as we went through it the more we can have those conversations the more we will be talking about masculinity like you know if you have a conversation about hair loss you are talking about masculinity you're getting into the threads of what it means to be a man of masculinity so um it's not it's not easy i'm not none of this stuff is easy as we've sort of already touched on i wish it was i wish we could just close this and just sort of you know take it off straight away but i think it just takes starting it just it just takes someone to start i think we're for many of us we're coming up against decades of a certain version of masculinity and just starting a conversation even if it's just texting a mate and saying you know i've not seen you much recently what's going on that is just starting to one work some of that cultural conditioning of silence and
Speaker 1that's how everything starts really beautiful i totally agree and what i found is when i started doing it everyone else around me started doing it and i was like oh my god i'm not going to do it as well like it took me a long time to to just be a bit more open about what i was going through similar experiences as yourself and as soon as i started just just giving a little bit to my friends i opened up this tidal wave of dialogue and now we took all my my really like traditionally macho kind of men's men in my life we all have these like heart-to-heart conversations we all tell each other i love you brother and stuff like that we check in with each other it kind of like by you opening the conversation a little bit you make it okay for all your mates to do so as well i've noticed that as soon as i started talking about it it kind of made it okay for everyone around me to go oh man i feel the same way as well and and now we're all exploring it together and we're all still men we're all still doing our thing you know so um yeah i totally agree with you so george thank you so much mate we gotta give a plug to the book um be a man about it building a healthier idea of masculinity is out on january 22nd so whenever you listen to this podcast uh we're recording this about two days before that so um it will probably be out when you listen to it please go and get it it's available in all the stores and all the stores it looks amazing it sounds amazing you need to get it get it for all your men friends get it for everybody and um george we wish you the best of luck with the book best of wishes with the mission and everything you got coming up and i look forward to following the rest of your journey brother thanks so much james really appreciate being here take care man good to meet you right george bell ladies and gentlemen his brand new book be a man about it building a healthier idea of masculinity will more than likely be out now by the time you hear this podcast so i highly recommend it and i'll see you in the next one bye bye you go and get a copy masculinity and men's mental health and the truly shocking figures around men's suicide is in no way a niche issue if you've got a brother if you've got a son if you've got a male partner these issues will be affecting them and unfortunately it's an issue that is still nowhere near enough talked about so maybe this book and hopefully this book will be the catalyst to opening up a much more mainstream conversation around these issues so go and grab yourself a copy the book is available anywhere you get your books follow george bell on his socials at georgie bell and whilst you're in the habit of buying books and clicking on stuff you know you can also subscribe to this sexy little podcast that you're listening to right now the james kennedy podcast is available on all platforms apple spotify even youtube damn it wherever you get your podcast please give us a subscribe a like a follow a thumbs up a thumbs down whatever you got to do just give us something damn it and i hope you found the conversation today informative interesting inspiring and i hope that i'm going to be able to continue bringing you these kinds of conversations and i'll see you in the next one bye bye every week so until next time loads of love behave yourselves take care of yourselves take care of each other
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