756 - Archetypes

Hello and welcome. My name is John August. My name is Craig Mason. And this episode is 756 of Scrip Notes. It's a podcast about screenwriting and things that are interesting to screenwriters since the dawn of storytelling. Oh my! There have been archetypes, characters whose essential nature can be distilled down to their function. Then in the 20th century, we got scientific with personality taxonomies like Myers-Briggs, Enneagrams, and the Big Five. Today on the show, Craig, what aspects of archetypes are actually useful for writers? Hmm. How do we move beyond shorthand to create complex characters? We'll get one tool created by a previous Scrip Notes intern to do just that. We'll also answer some listener questions. And in our bonus statement for opinion members, I want to talk about screens and projectors. How we're watching the things that we make. I can't wait for that. I'm excited to do it. Yeah. But first, let's talk about the box office, Craig, because we have now hit an all-time record for box office. Back in February, in episode 722, we said that, quote, "some people are quietly predicting that it'll be one of the biggest years of the box office," and that prediction was correct. The summer 2026 box office domestically set an all-time record with $4.76 billion from May 1 through Labor Day. Huge. Mostly the sheep movie. Mostly the Craig sheep detective. That seems like 90 percent sheep detective. Mostly with out sheep detectives. It would have been nearly the same number. Everything helped. It narrowly beat the 2013 record. Okay. Then we helped in that. Yeah, exactly. You put it over the edge of the 2026. This is enormous. It's great. And it just proves that what we said was true. It took longer than I think you and I thought it might take. And for some people, their faith might have started to wane. That perhaps the movie business was always just being held aloft by some sort of spit and string. And when COVID hit, it died permanently. No. Everybody, it's like they rediscovered the movies and they rediscovered it was fun to go and boom, suddenly it was a thing. And in no small part, fueled and helped by social media because it became a thing to do again. And it's back. Plus, there were some fantastic movies this year. Awesome. It was just great. And so back in February, we were talking about sort of the things we sort of assumed could be giant blockbusters. We knew that the first product was going to be coming out. Odyssey. Odyssey. Those things. El Mary was expected to do well. And El Mary also sort of primed the pump of some giant movie and got built. Like, oh, yes, I'm going to go to the movies. I have a person who goes to the movies. Yes. And I have a good time in the movies. And it's a wonderful communal experience. And and then you had movies coming out of nowhere that just, you know, back rooms and obsession that just added rocket fuel to the whole thing. Yeah, what I love about is like, yes, we had our Spider-Man, which became the biggest movie of all time. But why this spider-Man? I don't know why this spider-Man. I mean, I've seen a good movie. I just don't know why this particular Spider-Man is supposed to be the last Spider-Man. It's the same Spider-Man. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, regardless. Great. Thrilled. Thrilled. Thrilled. I mean, Thrilled. We have some big movies coming out through the end of the year. Listen, some of this was we had things that were delayed and knocked off, of course. So with some bigger movies got put together. But it's also just a reminder that there's going to be obsession to zoom back rooms. We made surprises and like releasing things in theaters are is a chance to just make a bunch of money. And I just like that for our industry. It's fantastic. And for the people who are our streamers, who do both. So not television-only streamers, but people who have the options of putting things in theaters. This begins to put even more pressure on somebody like Netflix to stop just pointlessly holding their breath and going, I don't want to. It doesn't hurt the Amazon Prime video business to have Hail Mary in the theaters for eight weeks. Good Lord. It just doesn't. It helps them. Obviously. And filmmakers are going to want to go to places that do that as opposed to somewhere that's like, here's a week. Right. And so Netflix has announced they are going to start reporting domestic box office on things, which is great. But they have to put movies in theaters. Yeah. But so they're already going to be doing Narnia in theaters. How long longer than they probably would have before this? Okay. But like the deal that Amazon is no matter what. Yeah. We'll give you 45 days in the theaters exclusive before we that's the minimum. And to me, somebody like Warner Brothers that just makes movies and then they go to, you know, whatever HBO is back to HBO Max. Yeah, HBO Max. So again, like Warner Brothers will leave movies in there for three months. If it's doing well, if it's sinners and it's going great and just keep it out there and then you put it on the service, that's the old way. We're going to return to the old way because it worked. And it worked really well. It made people a ton of money. So yes, people are going to write it and say, like, Oh, it's because of inflation. So the numbers are higher. Sure. Yeah. Take a ticket price to one up. Oh, but also admissions went up. So the actual number of buzz insights was higher than before. Forgetting like, Oh, we're going to compare it to 2013. Forget all that. Just compare this year's admissions to last year's admissions is probably not going to even be close. Like, it's just you could tell that people were showing up in droves. I don't care about the specific like, this is the quote unquote biggest or whatever. I'm sure in 1943 had a bigger summer or whatever. You know, well, night, me not that year. Let's go with 3039. Sure. Great year. Yeah, absolutely. Because we wanted air conditioning. Well, people wanted to not die in the world. That's true. Yeah. This was the summer that I finally got AMC a list. So a list is where you pay a certain monthly fee and then you can see as many movies as you want. I saw a ton of movies. Well, a movie pass was like that what sort of broke the seal on that. But like, it worked. And it got less. It got more people to see. There's how much money does it cost AMC a list. I think it's $30 a month at this point. 2799. 2799. And you can see as many movies as you want. You can see up to like three per week. Oh, that's a lot. Okay. So as many movies as you. Yeah, basically, it's city specific to. Yeah. So the other thing which we did this year, AMC a list has the most confusing interface for what's called entourage. But basically once you've added your friends into your entourage, when you're buying tickets, you just go click blue, blue, blue, and those people you're getting tickets for them as well. And it shows up on their phone for free. If they are already a list members. Oh, I see. Yeah. So if all of your a list members, you can just sort so AMC is smart. Like, okay, movie pass never made sense because they don't own movie. No, AMC owns the theaters. They don't care about you and your ticket price. They want you to buy soda and popcorn. Yeah. It's just obvious. The more I think about it, the crazier movie pass gets. Yeah. The crazier. I can't believe. Yeah. And it's still, but they're still trying, right? They're still trying to sweet summer child. Yeah. So like, I want you to see a movie with Megana, Megana Rower, or the great little rifle producer. And no offense. No offense, but she's the goat. Yeah, she's just, you know, you can take it somewhere to go. You got to, you got to hit that level. Just to be able to sort of, like, hurt her just like, hey, dude, should we go see this? Like, great. And so I got tickets for the three of us done. It's on her phone. It's how it should be. So AMC is so frustrating because they show a half an hour of ads beforehand. But now you just learn to just go and have a later. Exactly. And everyone went. So we're of a generation where like, getting to the movie theater on time was actually stressful. Yeah. Because like, if you show up and you're not in touch, because there was like, there was like, they would show two or three trailers. And that was it. There were no ads. There was nothing. It was just, here's two or three trailers. And now we start the movie. And it was panic. And now no one seems to, it's a little bit like stoppage time in soccer. No one knows how much time is at the end of the game that they're just sticking on. And no one knows how much time is in the beginning of a movie before the movie starts. Is it half an hour or 45 minutes? So I just started saying 25 to 30 minutes. Okay. That's insane. It's a lot. It's insane. Yeah. And they're all bad. Yeah. Have you ever noticed that? At least I've never seen one. Like bad comedian. You ever noticed this? Yeah. I've never seen one ad in front of a movie where I went. Huh. Good ad. And mostly trailers at AMC, to their credit. They're mostly trailers. They're fine. Yeah. So they're talking about the other garbage. No, there's not a lot of other garbage. There's a Coca Cola ad, which is now its own parodyable thing. And why does Coca Cola need to advertise? Is there someone that doesn't know about it? Not Coca Cola. Tell me about this product. Yeah. What is it? Yeah. How do I drink Coca Cola? It means me to buy it. So what? Why? No. Why? Yeah. Because it's crazy. Yeah. Anyway, we're excited for the box office to be where it's at. We're excited that sometime in the next two years, we'll have the Cinderella. I'm reopening. Will we? Yeah. So that's happened while you were in Canada. Oh, so Sony slash Alamedraft House bought a bottle. Oh, and they are going to be reappearing. Fantastic. Oh, I can't wait. I mean, what a great venue. Yeah. And they will need to figure out their own good system for how they will do it. Hey, great timing for them too. By the way, because movies are back movies are back. What a wonderful thing. Yeah. I'm really hoping that if we can make Wolf Spellie into a feature I would love for it's a Sony feature. It's the dome. Well, I assume that's the plan. I want this to make a feature out of it. That would be great. Yeah. Scene movie at the dome. Yeah. So get a get a cocktail beforehand. Yeah. Craig back in episode 716. We talked about personality typologies. I remember. Yeah. Even I remember this. Yeah. So we talked about big five. We talked about Myers-Briggs. You and I were trying to figure out what our four letters were for Myers-Briggs. I know what mine are. We talked about big five. Big five if we're mind you is openness, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, neuroticism. And those were all frameworks for describing real people. But you try sometimes to apply them to fictional people. It's like you want them to feel real. I never think about this. No. Ever. Mostly because I think about characters in extraordinary moments. I think these archetypes would be great for the day-to-day stuff before anything happens. Maybe they're useful for the first five or ten minutes of character. But then you see what happens when they're under stress and pressure. At which point I think a - A lot of these things begin to break down. - Yeah. And I think some of my reactions against, I don't want to conflate the term archetype too much because I think of archetypes as being a character's function within a narrative, a function within a story. So mentor. A mentor. What is, what are they doing? So if a personality type is sort of, why are they that way, an archetype is what are they doing? What is, what is their actual thing? What are they for in, of course, your story? Yeah. And I think what's crucial for writers to understand is that, yes, characters have functional roles, but you cannot be reduced down to tropes. And that's my concern is like, so often, like mentor, you said mentor, mentor as an archetype, the bad way to start writing a character. Yeah, exactly. And it's also partly because no one is just a mentor. No one is just one thing. And I think people try to reduce things down to distill it down to just, they're only that thing. And it's like, but then they're not interested because real life people are not only one thing. You're a dad, but you're also a writer and a creator. You're mentors to some people, you're a pan, they asked other people. Many. Yeah. Many. Yeah. It's a bad way to start thinking about a character because characters' utility is a, I consider a meta aspect, meaning what's purpose are they serving from a narrative point of view requires you to think about narrative. But when I'm thinking about these characters, I'm thinking about them inside of something. They don't know they're in a narrative. Exactly. And so I don't think it's helpful to think about them in that. It's also crucial to understand is that all characters are relational to other characters in the course of the story. You cannot be a mentor if there's no one for you to be a mentor too. You have to have a student or someone like that or if you don't, that could be an interesting character who is like a studentless mentor who has this drive to teach people but no one to teach. Interesting. And why this person and why, why is this the first person probably even thinking about karate kid like, oh yeah, Mr. Miyagi doesn't have a karate dojo. He's a gardener. He doesn't teach anyone anything and he doesn't want to teach this kid anything. And then he feels a connection to him. He feels something and the why of that is fascinating and people forget. So when you think about these movies and you think, okay, I immediately go to Mr. Miyagi because he's such a classic mentor. But there's an amazing scene where he gets drunk and talks about his dead wife and Japanese internment and this is a complicated guy. Exactly. And then in the subsequent movies, it gets less and less so because as sequels proceed, and this is not about the writers, this is about the studios. They misunderstand. Do you know what the value of these people are and they think, oh mentor, that's the point. Like Mr. Miyagi doesn't know he's a mentor at all. So Robert came in last summer, we had an intern Sam Shapson was our stark summer intern. And do you remember Sam? I don't know if you met him in person or if he was only on a zoom one or two times. But he also ended up cutting a lot of the YouTube videos that we started putting out last summer, which were great. So one day, you came into the office and brought this project he'd been working on, which was a bunch of slips of paper that were cut up with different character archetypes and things like that. And they're all bound together, rubber band. And he was playing like he works through them as he's like starting to think of a project. He will sort through all these things and sort of like think of like what are these archetypes actually appeal to him about the characters that he's thinking about for the project. And it was like sort through them and lay them out in little piles and sort of move them around. And it was his process. And I looked at it. It was interesting because what I liked about it was he wasn't trying to reduce things down to one person. And he was essentially like a character is a constellation of different archetypes. And certainly things are more dominant than other things. But it wasn't trying to reduce it down to astrology or to like very specific categories or types. But what was the benefit of doing that? So it was for him to think through what functions do people carry in the story? How are we not duplicating functions among different characters? What's missing also can be really helpful for this as well. And so I looked at this and it was really primitive, but there was something interesting about it. It was primitive. I hope he's listening to this. Oh, really man. Yeah. Really primitive? Really primitive. We make writer emergency pack, which is for sort of when you get stuck on ideas and sort of that. I thought like there's a better version of this to be made and so I challenged him to do it. And this is a very John August thing to absolutely. I see a thing that's not quite right and I got to fix it. It's really. This is really primitive. This is primitive. But there's something there interesting. Yeah. And as a mentor. Or I will do what I did. I will talk to you as the perfectionist. Yes. And so I challenged him to just come up with a better version. And did he? He did. And so I'm going to show it to you. So this is what we're working on. Fantastic. I wanted him to make this as an extension of writer emergency pack. And so which is that brainstorming tool we have for sort of a middle of a story. And after months and months, you came back with a better prototype and now we're a second prototype. And what I like this is that I think that generally does not exist on the market. There's things that are a little bit more astrology or super Jungian and in a very outdrug way. I wanted something that was really concrete. So let me. Let me try to create this. So this is what we're calling this character creator kit and describe what you're seeing on these cards. I'm just going to pick card any card. Here we go. Do I have to keep them in order? No. Just shovel them sort them to do it every once in a while. Spy. Spy. Tell me about spy. Spy. So guards what others can't be trusted to know or that's in the light part of the card. And then the darker part of the card it says exploits their secrets, knowledge is power and now they own you. And then there's a little picture of an L. And so things have kind of very broad categories. We're trying again not to sort of lock you down into one way of approaching this. But I think the best approach that we found is to do kind of what Sam was doing with his little slips, which is that you're thinking about a project. Just shovel them sort through them and say like, OK, which of these actually feel like they're relevant to my project and just stack them. And so I'm grabbing shape shifter here. Feels for sure. I have a vampire. So I might need to be a thing. Tortoise. Slow and steady. Never rushes what matters. That's the light side of this. The shadow side to be slow and stubborn. They'll get to it when they get to it. This feels great for like subclasses for Dan. Oh, totally. Oh, look. Look, John, we found us. Perfectionists. Perfectionists. Get's it just right. Polishes every detail, but knows when good is good enough or never good enough. So obsessed with polishing the details, they might never be done or you could have added or beats themselves up eternally, not that I would know anything about that. So here's what I think is interesting about a perfectionist card is let's say you have. See, I'm trying to perfect it. You're trying to perfect. You had a mercenary for hire with morals walks away when the job crosses the line. A shadow side is a cold, hired gun. No job too dirty for the right price. So you have that. Okay. A mercenary, but like something like what you just had in terms of perfectionist, well, if it's a perfectionist mercenary, you start to combo them. Make combo them together. Let's make a combo. It's a combo. Pull this card out. Pull another one blindly. Great. Okay. Here's guide. Randomly, and it is leader, well, guide leader. That's an easy one. Yeah. I thought that was too easy. Yeah. Let's find something else. Hero, nor. Oh, I'm an addict. Okay. Great. A guy addict. That's a fun one. And so the light version stays clean, knows how dark the bottom can be. The shadow of that is consumed by craving, chases the high until there's nothing left. So my instinct would be to combine the top of one in the bottom of the other. Because then you get some good stress, right? So a guide shows the way offers the best road for travelers on their journey, consumed by craving, chases the high until there's nothing left. So you're making a movie and you are climbing that Everest and you need a character who's a Sherpa. And a lot of people are just like Sherpa number one, Sherpa number two. And you're like, well, what if this guy loves his job, loves to show the way, knows how to get there. So is an addict and is fully on pills, and at times has no idea where he is or what he's doing. That's an interesting combo. It is a good combo or starts to get withdrawal while you're halfway up the mountain. That's an exciting thing to do in a mountain climbing movie. Haven't seen that one before. Absolutely. But I also think about the other way around. Like what if they're sort of principal thing is that they're an addict, but they're also a guy. So they're basically they're leading a 12 step program, but they're struggling themselves. Doesn't have to be about drugs itself, it could be about sort of some other thing, some kind of adventure or some kind of thing that they are obsessed with. We flip it around. Stays clean, knows how dark the bottom can be, leads a stray, steers travelers off their path into danger. Now you've got a guy who's your sponsor. And he's clean, but the way he stays clean is by just sort of manipulating you into failing. That's how he feels good about himself. Yeah. That's a cool character too. I like the, I like the light dark combo vibe. Yeah. So what does that remind you of? Ironie. Ironie reminds me of ironie. That's basically this is what I'm always looking for is just some sort of sense of an ironic conflict in somebody. It makes them interesting because you're right. Like a guy who is an addict, he lives sober, he falls a plan. That's a person. So boring. There's no dramatic value to that. But then in a sick way, like wants you to fail, that's very human. Yes. That's very human. That's interesting. And so what appeals to me about sort of this way of thinking about things is archetypes I feel are straight jackets. They are, they're ways of like, you know, they're shorthands, they're tropes, they're bad. Yeah. But as you combine things, they really, really, really, really look at that. Most characters are going to be at least two, but sometimes six different things sort of like jockeying for control over how they're approaching things. It's great. I have so. I think there's a part of their personality that they acknowledge that they know and there's a part that they're ashamed of and they hide. And the shadow part of that to me is often that the part that they're reluctant to let other people see. - Yeah, to me, the combo makes this, you know, in an early version of the last of us, Neil and I had been talking about Joel as somebody who had become addicted to painkillers, to meds. And there's like a little bit of a squib of that leftover because he's dealing drugs in the QZ and he's also taking some and drinking to just sort of make him so good at bed. We would sort of just play that off as a kind of just temporary, it's his birthday. And he feels very sad, Sarah died. And he remembers it. But that notion of like, basically, he was, yeah, he was addict-guide. It's, there's, this is a cool way of thinking about things. I like, I like the, yeah, I mean, and then you can get excited, you get into a triple, get into a triple combo. - Let's try something new. So there's a 110 cards. - Oh my God. - I'm going networker. - Networker, right? - And I'm going muse. - All right. - And I'm going, ha, deity. - Deity, great. - All right, let's see what we got here. Ignite's transformation, they're glowing presence awakens and inspires, hold on. And I'm gonna go down, frightens the masses, commands supreme devotion from above the laws of men. Instead of a dark lord, you would have a queen. Stretcher says the sea. And, well connected, friends in every room always knows a guy. - Yeah. - That's, it's a work on that one for a little bit. So you're like, both inspiring and terrifying. This is a cult leader, basically. - Yeah, I feel so glad it was an interesting cult leader. - Yeah, absolutely. And so in this case, you picked two of these sort of purple cards in one of the blue cards. - Yeah. - And as you're sorting through that, let's say you're just starting from scratch, you're just sorting through all the cards. If you ended up with a bunch of the same category in your pile, it's worth asking why. So what is not those kind of things? 'Cause this is, - And why, just have curiosity, how did you sort, muse into one type and deity into another? - It was tough to find things that feel like broad categories that are not too reductive. - And so, is this the category card right here? - Yeah. - Okay, so the red one is love, empathy, connection. Okay. I see, and then the blue one is authority, power, and stature, that makes sense. - Yeah. - Talk us through about the general categories. - All right. - We've got creativity, craft, wit, wisdom, knowledge, truth, love, empathy, connection, authority, power, stature, courage, honor, force, this is D&D straight up. Passion, drive, intensity, darkness, fringe, menace, innocence, deference, smallness. I mean, I really want to sort these into D&D classes. - Yeah. - Like, wisdom, knowledge, truth, this sounds like, that's a clip. - No, that's not what it was like. - You could go druid on that. - Oh, sure. - I'm gonna go druid. Creativity, crap, wit. That feels like a wizard. Love, empathy, connection. - Bard, a clerk. - Bard, I like Bard there. Authority, power, stature, is kind of-- - A paladin. - A paladin, sure. - Courage, honor, force. Actually, Courage, honor, force, I go paladin. Authority, power, stature, is fighter. Passion, drive, intensity, feels like a sorcerer, darkness, fringe, menace, warlock. Innocence, deference, smallness. It's not a rogue. I don't know what that is. Damn it. I almost had 'em all. - And the last one, it could be like a warlock, where it's just like, it's all the sort of the weirdness of things. - The darkness, fringe, menace, feel very warlocking. - Yeah. - So, I understand the instinct to sort of go to D&D categories, 'cause we always start thinking in D&D, but that this is, what's interesting is that you can imagine a character in a story or character you're playing in D&D, and by combining different aspects of things, 'cause there's like, there are warlocks who are sort of the leaders of the party, or characters, and there's also the weirdos who don't talk to anybody who are a hermit-like. - Which is what we generally do. - Yeah. - Yeah. - We rarely play a character that's just, I'm the most paladin of paladins. - Yeah. - Yeah. - What's your character? - Honorable. - Yes. - Once to defend the innocence and believes in her oath. - Well, and that's one dimensional, and that's the problem, and so it's just like, they're doing thing, there's not actually a thing to play there. - There's nothing to play there. - There's no playable character. - 'Cause there's no tension between the rest of the group, and there's no tension within them themselves. - What's Myrony? You just want to Myrony? - You want to Myrony. - That's the deal. Or something fun. - Yeah. - All right. I like these. - These are great. - So, these are not great, so. - So, can I buy it? - They're a Kickstarter that starts today. And so they're-- - Send me a link. - I will send you a link. They are $25.00, we'll have the first thousand decks shipping by Christmas, so if people want to do it, they should click through now and see if they're getting at that first thousand deck. - Great. - Yeah, I'm really happy how they turned out, and-- - They're well done. - Yeah, our intern knocked out of the park. We just have the most amazing interns. And we're really, really happy with them. - Excellent. - They're in the US, like all of our stuff. - Printed in the United States of America. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Amazing. - Yeah. - So it won't be coated in some sort of lead. - Nope. - And there won't be any tariffs on them. They won't be stuck in a boat someplace. - It won't be off-gassing, something they-- - They're printed in Florida. - Oh, God. John, you were so close. - I was so close. - Florida. - You know, there's lovely people in Florida and they do great talking to you all of our stuff. - It's not their fault. What are we gonna do with Florida, like in general? - We're gonna love 'em. - Yeah, I like that. - Yeah. - We just show them love. - Yeah, show them love, respect. - And try and behave in a way that we want to be reflected back. - We're talking about the rescue animals. Like they're rescue dogs. - Yeah. - All right. - They're rescue dogs that sometimes bites people. We love them, but they're biteers. - Yeah. - The entire state's gonna ride to us. - Yeah. I'm looking forward to this. This is actually already been useful for me as I'm sort of mapping that stuff. Because obviously you have a sense of who your main characters are. But when you're introducing like the character of all the peers in one episode or their minor character, getting them beyond just like that function is like, oh, they are the henchmen to this guy. But giving them a specific thing that is their deal can really help. - I'll tell you another way that I think this could be helpful. I can imagine myself using it in this way. I probably wouldn't start with these and go or I'm gonna combo some cards and think of a character. But if I have a character and I've thought of that character, it might be interesting to go, all right, now that I know who this person is and what their deal is, let me see if I can play the game of finding the cards that fit them. If only because then there might be a couple of other things on those cards that make me think, oh, I could also do this or that's consistent with this and that would be an interesting exercise. It's very cool. - So we took this to Megalaphos group. She has a writers group and as a demo, I was sort of talking through things. And one of the things that Meg said, which I thought was really clever is, she did it for a project. Then she had her writing partner also do a project and see what cards they hold for different characters. - That's interesting. It was a good way to discuss how they saw the characters. - I like that. - Which is fun because early on in that process, you may not have the same vision in your head for. - Right, you may be seeing it in two different ways. - But that's okay too, that's the discussion. - That's the discussion. All right, let's answer some listener questions. What have you got for us, Meredith? - Well, since we're talking about process, Trevor writes, my name is Trevor. I've spent the last 25 years scoring music for Film and TV here in LA. I recently segueed to screenwriting and I fell in love with it. I wrote and directed and composed my debut project of Feature Short, which premiered at TIFF last year. I just completed my first full feature screenplay, which is going up to cast, my question. What role does music play for you in your process? In the blue sky dreaming phase, in the actual writing, do you write music into your scripts? Do you create a Spotify playlist to write to? I think of dialogue a lot like music. So, wondering how music fits into your creative process? - It's very important for me. And so, early on in a process, I will make my Apple music playlist up. These are the songs that feel like they would be in my world. And that's incredibly helpful for getting back in the mood for it, especially if I've had to sort of go off and do something else in between. It sort of gets me back into that mind space for it. And other times, I'll just like, I'll be listening to music and realize like, oh my God, that is the thing for this. I get what this is and will inspire other moments. And it's not that there are lyrics or anything. It's just like, I want to write the same where that song would go. And does it actually make it into the project? Almost never. But it's a hugely helpful emotional touch to on first or what that moment felt like for me. - I use it a bit differently. I don't generally create playlists. And I generally don't play music when I'm writing. I will think sometimes in a scene, I'll think score will go here. I'll even sometimes as a transition, particularly towards the end of an episode, I will say score rises. Okay, I understand this is a different feeling now. I'm going into some sort of, we're landing the plane and going to credits. Obviously, when there is a need for a specific song, I'm obsessive about it in an almost insane way to try and find the right song. Because I, I don't know, I just think if I'm gonna put a song in, I need it to be like, why that song? Why there, why that? So I'm very, very fussy about that. But I also, so for the last of us, let's say, you know, from lucky enough to get a Baldur skate on the air, those have scores that I pull from. I use the composers, I would absolutely love to use the composer from Baldur skate, incredible music there. And so I already have a comic tabstriker draw from, but first say like Chernobyl, I didn't think of any music at all. And we just sort of turned it over to Hilda, good new daughter and said, what do we do? Like, I don't think Johan or I had any concept of how that should be scored. We just didn't know. It felt vaguely unscorable and then she was like, hold my beer, hold my Icelandic beer, watch this. And it was wonderful. And that's also good, like to just say, hey, we actually don't know and to let somebody go to town and play around and invent. And what I found is it's scores like that that we will tend to go to when we're editing as temp score. Yeah, totally. The kind of where did that come from score? That's fun to find those things by creating space for the composer. Just this past week, I heard a track and it's like, oh, well, I'm flying like, I'm totally going to do that. And that was looking up the composer. And it was Max Richter, who you used on. Well, we used him on the last one, but it was like he'd ordered that particular piece had already been used in arrival and like so many things and we were amazing. We just sort of went, I talked to, I remember talking about it with Tim Good, the editor, and he was like, look, the thing is it works. Yeah. All right. And I'm like, it does work. And we played the game of like, but it's been in things before. Should we do it? Is it cheap? Is it derivative? And in the end, it's like, no, you know what? The thing is I'm crying. Yeah. So what's remarkable about that piece and all of this music really, but like that piece, and particularly we're talking about on the nature of daylight, it builds in a way that you think like, oh, it's going to resolve and never actually gets to resolve. It's it repeats and repeats and repeats and it introduces new ideas, but never kind of fully pays them off. So you're just in this, like, this agony of suspension. It is romantic and so sad at the same time. And it's like hope and loss at the same time. Where are you using the show? We use it. There's a montage where Bill and Frank are having their last day together. So they're doing all the things that Frank has to do. They're, they're looking through their town. They're getting married. They're filling the last sunset, cooking dinner. It's everything that goes through that last day and it's, it, it ruined me, like watching I'm just like, and I can't, that's not something like I wrote down and said, and now we are ruined, right? They found a piece of music. They put it together that way. And I just said to Tim, this is just like, I'm ugly crying. And if I'm ugly crying, what, what am I supposed to do? Go, yeah, but it was also in another movie. You know, I try to not do that. I will say like on needle drop kind of stuff. So that's a, that's a piece that's an orchestral piece. For a song song, I will always go, okay, was this already used in a movie in like some sort of iconic way that makes me feel like I'm just doing it? Like I'm not putting in, I feel good by James Brown. That didn't happen. You know, or the Peter Gabriel track that's always in trailers. In your eyes. Yeah. I can't sing anymore. I will pay money. Or red ring. Return to the question. I will build these playlist, but I will not play them while I'm actually writing. I'm silent while I'm writing. Me too. Silent all these years. Yeah. Can't, no more. I want to start being music. I'm going to start singing full songs. It's a good stuff. Screw it. Let's answer another listener question. Sure. Sarah writes, as a long time listener, first time emailer, I'm fully bought into the script as key to how the film turns out, but had a question about great movie moments that were never in the scripts months after watching a project Hail Mary. I'm looking forward to being able to stream so I can rewatch that thematically perfect karaoke scene of Sandra Hewler singing "Sign of the Times." Apparently, the song choice was not in the script and Sandra picked it fairly last minute. Question. What have been the best moments of unscripted alchemy on your projects? Something you didn't have on the page, but when you added or suggested, you couldn't imagine the project without. So I recently rewatched Go because there's a new transfer of Go, 4K transfer that arrow it did. It's a blu-ray. It's fantastic. Everyone should check it out. You see what's in the car as the four guys are driving to Vegas. It's scripted, but there was a lot of other unscripted stuff that sort of came up on top of it and just love it. So it's really a wreck-and-mire driving that scene in a great way. That's an example of a situation like that. I think it's probably actually similar to what happened to Sandra Hewler in Project Hail Mary where they knew this thing was going to happen. They were like filling her like head designed. There's going to be a karaoke moment, but they didn't know exactly what the song was going to be and she came in and auctioned it out of the park. Yeah. That's an example of a moment where the people who wrote the script and the people who were directing the movie all understood exactly what they would want once they heard it. And in this case, this is why it worked. It's the same people. Yeah. It's Phil and Chris. And Roger was adapting that book. Exactly. And you're got it. So they all understood together like, this would be the right kind of thing to do. I am sort of notoriously, it's not like I say, you have to do what's on the page. But generally speaking, that's sort of what we do. I mean, Caitlin Deaver did make fun of me the other day and it was like absolutely reasonable. I was like, I'm directing this scene. I'm like, like this moment, why don't we like, I think this is a moment where we can sort of ad lib? Like instead of this, like you say this and you say this and she goes, so we're going to ad lib and we say what you just told us to say. And I'm like, Oh, no, I said improv. That's the improv. Oh, my God. I'm like, let's improv. Then I realize, no, I'm improv. They're not improv. I'm improv. I'm improv. I'm improv. That's not them. I'm improv. So we've now called it cragmas and improv. And the idea of cragmas and improv is he says a bunch of things you should say. And then you say them. So that's that's on me. I wear that. I guess that's sort of how it goes. But when I was working in comedy, it would happen all the time. I mean, you know, and Todd Phillips is like very like when we would write it was like down to every period word choice. It's very, very, very specific. But when you have, you know, when you have Zach Gallifenac, so to start there, things are going to happen. And when they happen, Todd is brilliant at recognizing that they're about to happen or that they're and then just going, now we're just doing this for a bit. We're not worrying about. Let's just see what happens here. And some amazing things would come out of that stuff. They're two things in Chernobyl and they're both in the same episode. They're in the last episode. Jared Harris is beginning his testimony at the trial. And there's a microphone. And he's, he was just too far from it. And Johan whispered because like somebody had put it in the wrong spot. He pointed to an extra basically guy playing. He's like, go in there just a closer and the guy running and just snuck in and they moved to closer and we were it was not it was literally like not support. But it was great. That felt so real. We're keeping that. That's awesome. And the other one quite beautifully was in the moment where Jared Harris and Stellan Skarskard are having their like final real conversation about how it turns out, you know, that you were the most important one in all this. And Stellan Skarator is contemplating the fact that he's going to die. And this little bug is just sort of landed on his leg. Yeah. And he just picked up the little bug and just used that. It was he was supposed to be looking out like I think a script looking out the beautiful land walls, it turned out where that specific spot was. There was no beautiful land. Like it's like a large building and a bunch of garbage. And and lo and behold this bug it's heard. Now if you had planned the bug, it would have been bug wranglers. Yeah. But um, you opened yourself that. But admittedly, I'm not the best at some a little bit of control for you, I guess. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, like I'll let actors say anything that I don't care. It's better than what I wrote. I'm always for Craig Mason in prof. Yeah. Ridiculous. Oh, let's try one last question. All right. Uh, this comes from Kelsey from Richmond, Virginia. I'm a screenwriter and filmmaker on the East Coast. I have previously lived in Los Angeles to chase the proverbial dream, but fled back to the East Coast during the pandemic. Since then, I've been writing, working and getting involved with the film scene in Richmond. The main reason I'm writing last fall, I took one of my short film scripts, got a crew together and made it. I've had some small successes at regional and mid-tier festivals, and I'm wondering how to best use this to my advantage toward my writing and filmmaking career. One of my upcoming festivals, for instance, is in Los Angeles in late September, and I'll be intending in person attendees at these festivals tend to be the filmmakers, which is so great. But I don't find myself meeting people who can actually help me move on up or find representation. Is the way to do that? Just a whole bunch of cold emails or calls is a short film by a no-name writer-director going to impress anyone. Thank you for what you do. We will attempt to answer this question, but I would actually love our listeners to write in, who have experience with this. Like, I, like, people who did a short film and actually were able to go to a festival and make that all happen, because I have a couple of friends who were touring around with the films right now and going to festivals and they're winning their awards. And there's been some success where, like, you're going to find a good look to make that next film, but other times it's tough. So our listeners will be better answering this question than we are. I do think if there's people who are kind of at all on your radar or you're all on their radar in Los Angeles, this will be the time to reach out to them. Hopefully, try to get them to come to festival or send them to the link so they can see the film and try to just have a coffee with them. It's probably the best next step. Yeah. I, you're right. I think our listeners would have a better sense of this. By and large, these things are traps. Sounds like she's suspicious that this is a trap. In a nice way, she's saying, I'm going to go out there and, and then spend money and then I'll be there. And the only people I'll be talking to are the people that are trying to get the same attention or thing that I have. So what's the point of that great great observation the movie will do most of the talking if it is captivating and impressive Then and someone sees it and thinks to themselves. Oh, I can exploit this human being for money Which is how this works and they will call that generally works better than a kind of whatever Sweaty networking we are all taught to do which doesn't really work The movie itself will will do the talking you come out to Los Angeles. There's a it's a festival that she's attending Who's gonna win it? That'll probably be the person that has the 2% chance of being noticed by somebody that's kind of how this works But yeah, I'm I'm just going off of my basic understanding of the venality of our business There may be better specifics from people who've gone through this all right time for one cool things and Craig I see you have a follow-up on cool thing. Yeah So John in our prior episode we talked a little bit about the absurdity of the lengthy ovation that occurred film festivals Can's most specifically and I think it was actually in the bonus segment that we really in the bonus segment So if you don't pay the $5 a month you have no idea like Craig's rant about unreal the length of applause at film that's a little unreal so There's this thing that happens where somebody runs a movie at can and no matter what no matter what There is a standing ovation at the end of the movie that sometimes We'll get to an insane length pans labyrinth Infamously received a 22 minute long standing ovation 22 minutes Yes, people stood there Incessantly applauding which feels like It would become almost an existential crisis as if we had all gone insane. There's an article here in Indywire That talks a little bit about how this all came about and You know by and lot me well first of all we understand that it became a competition Yeah, it starts like everything a movie that is beloved gets a standing ovation and Then somebody else is like we want a standing ovation too Let's make it last even longer and then it becomes a thing to report on so this is not this doesn't go back very long Yeah, so if you have been going you know like in the 80s and 90s Yeah, it's not happening, right? And then it starts to catch on as a marketing thing So if you want to read a little bit about this but also talks a little bit about how it's kind of a bit rigged and How it became Stupid yeah to the point where I feel like it should just stop Yeah, and I also noticed that like Sundance doesn't have that tradition and so sometimes you get standing ovation It's nice, but then you actually just you get done and you're finished and also a standing ovation is Something special it is so you know you made a musical in Broadway and you've understood now that all Broadway musicals When they finish must have a standing ovation. This is stupid. It is stupid. It is stupid and yet You do actually know that it actually goes in the show now. It's for it for like how quickly it's stupid Yeah, and in fact applause itself theoretically is optional So way back when in like vaudeville days. You weren't guaranteed a pause. They might throw shit at you. Yeah, throw Cabbage is okay. Yeah, I always came with cabbage Which you know back then when there wasn't as much refrigeration, right? It was spoiling what do you do with all the spoiled food? If you bring it to the theater and throw it at bad actors, which is amazing But here's my suggestion for can if a movie does get a standing ovation really earns it At the exact one minute point you begin blowing air horns. Yeah Yeah until people stop and then get out of the field. I worry that it's only gonna encourage them because they'll hear that It's like it was just more noise And there's like 20 minutes of air horns may just start flashing the lights like a like in class when the kids may behave or release some sort of gas You know, yeah, like that's it like I was never deadly. It's never like a nice like a nice calming. Yeah, like a nitrous Yeah, like I and everyone's too quiet a clap anymore. They just sort of stumble out a little bit confused That would be nice. Yeah, snipers feels a little strong. I don't know I realize like oh just release gas into a room in Europe is a loaded comment. Let's not go there Like a nice a nice pleasant guest, but but just do something to stop this. It's not It seems sick Like it actually seems sick and decadent if you could stop everyone and I wanted to say congratulations together that would feel nice How about this we showed up and sat here and watched what you did yeah without interruption Which is the most indulgent thing anyone can ask anyone like I made something sit here silently and watch it For two hours don't do anything don't talk you just watch it. That's enough. I went to Robbins show robin the singer very top singer. Yes, it was planned to be a forum and in her big song dancing on my own When he gets to the chorus she steps away and stops singing and the lights come on and everyone just sing it together So just everyone in the audience could just at can would just sing their congratulations or something for one moment the moment We happened it would pass and then everyone can get about their business Get about your business. You don't you just don't see it I also hate on course at shows like I hate that the whole thing is so that the false so stupid like you're gonna make me Just keep applauding for you the lights haven't come up. We know what's going on absolutely and you have not sung the biggest song We haven't sung the biggest song exactly like what's going on yeah, why are we doing this? But that's fine because at least you get more so then rush comes out and they play Tom sort you get more This movie's over. It's over. There's no more movie. Yeah, I think this is show an extra scene show an extra scene Just don't give you what But they said this is where the irony kicks in apparently The four megalopolis began the infamous franzas for Coppola flop There was a standing ovation before it began Everyone's excited to see any franzas for Coppola you sit sit in your stay down shut up watch show applaud it and for a Hardy 20 seconds. Yeah, then get up and go. Yeah, it's enough enough voice now This is why you will not see me at any of these places because I don't understand their culture whatsoever My one cool thing is L.A. World is a new podcast from LA material It's a host about Hayes Davenport Antonio Sadajito and Julia Turner. No the great Julia Turner the great judge of Turner I would see people towards an episode for a couple weeks ago Which was the one street that explains LA. Oh Okay, what what street do you think explains L.A. I'm gonna go with Dwayne street the one that goes really up and really down in solar lake Yeah, I could see that sunset Boulevard would be another good choice because it goes sure But Wilshire Boulevard Wilshire Boulevard right here off Wilshire. We're right. I didn't know miracle mile. Yeah So in that episode they talk about MacArthur Park, which is a tourist side of a bunch of stuff sure is the D line which runs long Wilshire Yep, and the E clam Wilson building excuse me the E clam Wilson building What you never knew it was named that you've seen it in your entire life. That is at a Wilshire and La Brea So it's that art deco building at Wilshire, La Brea that has the looks like it has a hat on it It's so it has up four billboards at the top of it Oh Yeah, yeah, and so I was called the Samsung building because you used to have a Samsung billboard around the top of it right the big square-headed building Yeah, and now what is it now? So it's in renovations and we're gonna try to turn it into mixed-use residential Which is good because we need some more residential, but it's a beautiful building and like I just never knew the history of plastic LA Yeah, art deco-y kind of LA noir. Yeah thing. Yeah, so this is built. I assume like in the 40s or 30s probably the early 30s find out It was art deco art modern. Yeah, and it was built in 1929. Oh, it's right on so yes Very early decko was actually very short. Yeah, I guess I wasn't built in right very limited time Um, but it's a great gorgeous building. I had a history of how do you feel about residing in a building in an earthquake zone in 1929? I assume it's been retrofitted a little scary. They're doing the retrofitting now So in the retrofitting they have to do for seismic stuff They're also hopefully going to be can bring it through to residential. Okay, because it'd be nice to be like it said tower And board. There's no other towers right around there. It's true. Yeah, and it's it's cool E. Clem Wilson building Wilson And so the history of Wilshire is actually really fascinating because it was desired to connect our downtown. Yes with west of the west LA And which we're just two completely different cities and eventually everything filled in also the idea of the miracle Myles and the miracle was like we brought buildings back to it in businesses. It's actually not that great It's not miraculous when you drive down. No, not at all, but Uh, it is kind of a beautiful corridor. I mean the the great May building, which is nowhere in the May building with the museums along Which is incredible. Yeah, and now the line that does get you through to Beverly Hills and get you pass there and beyond is very cool Yeah, that that works now and I'll tell you what when I drive here I drive on Wilshire. Yeah, I love it. That's got beautiful. That's good. It's great. Yeah So uh, everyone listen to LA world. So it is the podcast from these things and age weeks They're talking through stuff that's very LA focused and I don't know if any of the podcasts that doesn't so I mean You can't get more LA focused than the E. Clem Wilson building at first. I was like what's an E. Clem? I was like there was a regular Clem and now there's a battery powered Clem. Yeah, it's the E. Clem Yeah, the E is for a lihoo or so like what is the guy from Yale like that? He is a lahu. Yeah, so it's a lahu clam. Yes, elaihu clam Wilson. These are names that we don't have any lahu anymore. No one says a lahu anymore, it's it. So a lahu is an Americanization of aliyahu, which is also, which is a lahu prophet, or we call aliyah, or aliyahu, but it's aliyahu, but so as a kid, I knew aliyahu or aliyahu, as the prophet who visits you invisibly during the Passover of Seder. And so you must leave a separate glass of wine and a plate for aliyahu, which as a child struck me is the worst version of Santa Claus there was. So it's an invisible person that visits you on a holiday, takes something, leaves nothing. Nothing. And if you don't leave something there, theoretically, you're cursed or something. Not great. We don't have a lahu anymore. It's also weird that like Madonna, like from Hopstrand, Madonna. Her first name is actually Madonna. It is. But no one else is named Madonna. Do you need to grow up with anybody named Madonna? It is a very ambitious name to give someone. However, in Latino culture, calling somebody Jesus, it's totally normal, but Anglo people never name their child Jesus. And you name your child Jesus, you're on drugs and that kid's probably going to print it. It's fine. There's something wrong. But yeah, but Jesus makes total sense. That is our show for this week. Scriptness is produced by Meredith Seven with help from Lauren Lowesberg, edited by Matthew Chlele and our outro by Nick Moore. If you have an outro, you can send us a link to [email protected]. That's also the place where we can send questions like the ones we answer today. You'll find transcripts @johnhonest.com. The Scriptness book is available wherever you buy books. Scriptness merch is at Cotton Bureau. Yes. If you'd like to see us, not just listen to us, follow us on YouTube and Instagram. If you'd like to read us, please subscribe to our weekly newsletter called Interesting, which has lots of links to things about writing. Most of all, thank you to our premium subscribers. You can become one at script.net. It's so cheap, so cheap, it's $5 a month. Yes. And it's still $5 a month. It's still $5 a month. $5 a month. $5 a month if you paid for it at the year. It's like $8 a month if you're just doing month to month. Oh, it is? Yeah, who did that? $8 a month if you're month to month. But why would you go month to month? No. Doesn't even make sense. You know you like the show, right? You're listening. No surprises. How many more episodes do we need to do about what you like the show, another 759? And only the premium subscribers are going to hear what we're about to record about projectors and screens and how we actually watch the things we make. I mean, yeah. Craig, John. Thanks for a good podcast. (upbeat music) (audience applauding) (audience cheering) (audience applauding) (audience applauding)