Speaker 1Hello, hello, hello! How the hell are you guys doing? Welcome back to the James Kennedy podcast. I know it's been a while. In my defense, I've been juggling quite a lot lately. I've been doing some killer shows with the mighty James Kennedy and the underdogs. Man, we had a great time doing shows with Marisa and the Moffs. We did Exeter, Swansea, Biddyford, Plymouth. Had a lot of fun, met a lot of awesome new people, and we can't wait to do it all again. I'm also neck deep in the run-up now to the publication of my second book, Loud Medicine, which is coming out on June the 5th. It is currently available to pre-order in all bookstores. Wherever you get your books from, it'll be there. And I can't wait for this bad boy to finally be out. Not long, man. June the 5th. Also, just putting the finishing touches on a new album, baby. A whole album is written and demoed and ready to record. So that's my excuses. That's why this podcast is taking a little bit of a backseat. And I hate it when that happens, because I do read. I really enjoy doing these things, and I know that consistency is important. But hey, I'm in for the long haul. So, you know, when things quieten down, as they always do, I'll be doubling down back on the podcast and keeping these episodes coming at you thick and fast. So if you haven't yet subscribed to the podcast, please do give me a subscribe and a follow, because it really helps. And I've got loads of awesome guests coming your way real soon, I promise you. Right, we've got an important one today, guys. We are tackling the subject of corruption in governments. Recording this conversation in the UK means we are recording this in the belly of the beast of corruption. Because God knows our government has far from clean hands when it comes to this issue. Exposing and understanding the level and the nature of corruption in our governments is essential if we are to live in an actual democracy. So what forms of corruption are we talking about? How is it exercised? And what can we do about it? We'll be the subject of today's conversation, and I've got the best in the game to give us the lowdown. So I say we just jump in and welcome onto the show today's guest, because we are joined today by Dr. Susan Hawley, an anti-corruption expert who has researched and campaigned against the UK's role in facilitating global corruption for over 20 years. Working formerly at Corruption Watch, she is now the Executive Director of Spotlight on Corruption, and we are very, very lucky that she's given us the time today to dive in to this important subject. So Susan, thanks so much for being here. How are you doing?
Speaker 2All right. Thanks. Thank you so much, James, for inviting me on. Looking forward to discussing corruption with you.
Speaker 1Oh, man, me too. Well, maybe to start off with then, we should give the listeners an overview of the nature of the work you do at Spotlight on Corruption and what exactly the organisation is about.
Speaker 2Yeah, so we're a pretty small charity, and really our purpose is to make sure the UK government takes fighting corruption seriously. So we monitor enforcing the anti-corruption. So we monitor enforcing the anti-corruption laws. Is it living up to its commitments? So we work across a range of areas. A lot of it is, is the government itself in the UK actually behaving in an ethical way and upholding standards of integrity? Is the UK actually taking steps to prevent it being a magnet for dirty money from other countries? You know, we all know about Russian oligarchs, you know, and parading around the streets of London in limos. You know, we are a complete honeypot for corrupt actors all across the world wanting to buy property or buy luxury goods here or use our private schools. So we work across a range of issues on the assumption that, you know, we we should never be complacent, that we don't have actually quite a serious corruption problem at home. And that, you know, we should play a role as a good global citizen and not be causing harm abroad by facilitating and enabling corrupt people to come to the UK and launder their money.
Speaker 1Wow. Okay. Well, there's some explosive truth bombs delivered there already in your opening segments. So we're off to a good start. Where does the UK stand then on the global stage in terms of our measurable level of corruption? You know, are we squeaky clean? You know, I, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is?
Speaker 2You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is?
Speaker 1You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is?
Speaker 2You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? You know, I highly doubt that, but are we as bad as the UK is? the reasons musk gave for dismantling all you know the aid um that was going to the u.s was given to us well it was because it was all corrupt and you see a growing narrative among people in you know reform politicians talking about how um all you know all you know local government spending it's all corrupt aid is corrupt we need to get rid of it um and i think um you know we need to be really wary of that and find ways to challenge it because um you know the public spending is really crucial uh for not just at home but also you know to play our role in tackling poverty abroad and um so we need fine to find ways to counter that narrative that public spending is just somehow inherently corrupt but i think it's a good example about how when the weakness around the rules of politics is that we need to be really wary of that and so we need to find ways to really be wary of that and so we need to find ways to counter that and so we need to find ways to live in creates this sense that it's very easy to fuel that all politicians and therefore all government and all political spending is corrupt how accurate is that then because you said that
Speaker 1the public perception of our politicians is not particularly great uh through your your work over the past 20 years of delving into this how accurate is that perception really in in the the inner workings and the behind the scenes of how our government acts and how our government acts and
Speaker 2actually operates in in you know on a day by day look i think the bottom line is there are a lot of really really good people and you know there are some rogue actors and the trouble is that it's about the systems around them and what those systems incentivize so i'll give you a really good example um you know i just saw it on social media actually that a labour mp was saying you know just since becoming a new labour mp just being bombarded with gifts and hospitality you know with uh people lobbying them and they were really shocked because they come from a sector where none of this would be allowed um and i think the trouble is it's a little bit like uh the frog who gets you know slowly boiled in the water in boiling water is that you know if you're in that system and everyone is just doing that you know if you're in that system and everyone is just doing that you know if you're in that system and everyone is just doing that you know if you're in that system and that's what you do right so it's not that they're bad people but they're just living in the culture which just does not have enough boundaries and accountability around it so i think it's um i think in terms of actual corruption day to day like we're not you know at the level and everyone knows you know if you walk down the street the policeman's not going to stop you and ask you for a bribe very very rare you know there are areas like planning law where everyone feels it's very corrupt but that's often because it's very opaque but there are also real problems like there aren't proper rules around gifts and hospitality for local government officials and planning officers for instance so the risks of corruption are there even if there isn't loads of corruption going on so what you know we really focus on is you know and it's good because it means we can do something about it you know we need to change the and make it more robust so that politicians pay better and people can have more trust in them
Speaker 1yeah man it's so important well when we finish the conversation i would like to end on a hopeful and end with a a sense of mission and purpose by discussing some of the ways in which we can mitigate this problem and you mentioned that other countries such as the nordic countries are already doing this very successfully so i'd like to tap into that as well if possible but before we get there i'd like to further explore the murky underbelly and the dark back rooms of corruption in governments to get a feel for exactly what we're talking about here because is is it literally just hospitality and concert tickets and football tickets and stuff like that or is this much more insidious because i imagine you know a gigantic oil company or you know a massive global financial conglomerate doesn't have to rely on handing out concert tickets i'm sure that their influence weaves through governments in much more nuanced and hidden ways is that accurate or am i just getting close to the point where i'm just
Speaker 2getting close to the realms of conspiracy theories now no it's not conspiracy um you know we've just done a major report about lobbying um and we really looked at this like who is meeting the main officials in you know the treasury and in the business department uh in the energy department in the science and technology departments and you know time and again the what you have is the ratio of business groups to public interest groups is it's it's just shocking it's like 23 to 1 wow so just in in in the business book departments were like 1.8 percent of their stakeholders were from public interest groups and then the treasury 2.3 you know so the rest is just them hearing from the business community um and that's particularly at a ministerial level you know you see that ministers you know we've as you know civil society organizations we wrote to various ministers you know saying can we have a meeting after the changing government um as we always do we tried it with the last government uh and they write back saying i'm afraid my diary is full and you're thinking well you know your diary is not full for certain people right and so what we found is that actually you know the the companies in each of these departments that got the most meetings were often the companies that also gave the most hospitality um and so you know there's a kind of level of influence which it goes very deep you know it's like they're the people that you know arguably if you're receiving hospitality from people you feel a connection to a bit of potential obligation to that's the concern you know our ethics bodies have flagged that the national audit office has flagged that so you know hospitality is a really you know it's a really big issue actually like should um we have stronger rules like they have even in in the eu or in the un that you have a presumption against accepting uh hospitality and i think we saw that with you know as soon as this you know the new labor government came in this whole freebie row is very distasteful to people because they know they couldn't do that in most professions like a teacher or you know you know even a business person they can't just kind of take free luxury gifts or a free holiday because it sends absolute alarm bells about conflicts of interest so so i think you know there are two groups of people that have real influence it's business but often it's kind of particular businesses so like we saw like it's you know barclays and hsbc and the treasury you know some of the big audit firms in dbt it's you know big energy companies in the energy department um who both have the most meetings and give the most hospitality um and they also get secondments but there's you know they get their people in to help develop policy in government departments but there's no transparency about that um and and a lot of this data that we were looking at is just the tip of the iceberg because only a fraction of the kind of lobbying that happens you know is is actually sometimes represented here you know if it's informal like whatsapp texts or you know meeting meetings that side of formal settings these are not covered uh by the data and we've definitely found and working with journalists that you think this looks quite interesting i wonder if this minister's met so and so and it's nowhere in the public data that they've met so and so like you know we were looking at crypto firms sure enough you do a free information request and blow in the hole behold there were meetings there were policy discussions and so there's there's a really big problem around too much secrecy in lobbying there's a really big problem with you know dominance of certain things and so i think it's a really big problem around too much secrecy and and you know what we were saying in our report um is you need to start thinking about ways of making sure that the public feel genuinely involved in decision making and that's absolutely key to restoring trust so we did you know um some focus group work uh ourselves actually in the red wall this was under the light you know three or four years ago and the women in the red wall were like you know we just never get asked what we think should happen we've got so many good ideas and you know actually time and again when people have used citizens assemblies for instance on climate change actually they're very different from doing focus groups they're like a process where you know the public really thinks about things and then they come to a consensus and we just need a lot more citizen particip participation in decision making in this country and and you can see it in other countries a way ahead on this it really does build trust
Speaker 1well i guess it's inspiring to know that solutions do exist in other places are actually combating this scourge successfully already and an example popped in my mind of well there's a place in brazil i can't think of the name of the of the city now off the top of my head but they actually were running the entire town through citizens assemblies you know right down to the the financing of things and the implementation of certain laws and as it turns out with much better results for everybody the citizens were actually doing a much better job than the government i just wish i could remember I don't remember the name of the place.
Speaker 2Was that the Porto Alegre park? participatory that's what i'm thinking of yeah yeah yeah and since then i think you know and actually there's a whole group of civil servants now looking at that but they need political backing you need like the ministers to say because they're quite time consuming so you can't use them for everything there are more participatory techniques that you know i think they're used in porto alegre on day-to-day spending uh but like on big issues if you look at like ireland for instance they do quite a lot of kind of you know citizens assemblies when they have very contentious issues like you know what to do about abortion you know so they use them quite frequently you know in switzerland they do referendums on everything but um you know they you can't have they have to be designed really carefully okay but um you know i think they're really powerful so if we had i mean you know the big issues of the day if you were going to choose you know what what are the key things that the public really need to say on you could you know you had one on climate change it was brilliant if you watched it on bbc you saw people really thinking about it coming up with really creative ideas but none of their recommendations were listened to so that's where the politics come in is if you're going to have them you need a commitment from very high up that they're you know these are going to lead to something and that the people involved are
Speaker 1actually going to be listened to damn right yeah there's another aspect of this as well which you alluded to earlier it's not necessarily a direct form of corruption but it is just the sheer amount of power that a lot of these corporations have to influence governments you know they they often make threats like if you bring in this labor law or this health and safety law you know we'll just shut shop move our factories elsewhere and you'll have an unemployment problem to deal with in your town you know and that's technically bribery so does that come under the fold of corruption or is
Speaker 2that something else i mean it the it is something that is destroying trust absolutely this sense of big business and if you if you think a lot of our problems for instance with austerity stem from the financial crisis the financial crisis itself stemmed from a weakening of financial sector regulation which was the result of extensive lobbying by finance firms you know and what you've got now is again huge lobbying and the government weakening financial regulation um and listening to particular voices in the business community um you know so i'll give you an example like um you know recently someone in who's one of the business groups who works more with small enterprises was saying you know they were really shocked and upset about the national insurance increase um and they were what they were most annoyed about on top of it was that the tax um break and and they were quite open the private refunds about really this is a huge success for our lobbying so the point is i think that we're also making a report is that who represents the public interest when you have a policy so the government is looking at taxation who are they listening to like you can't just listen to the one voice that says as you say like well we'll pull out the country if you don't you know if you make this tax um if you don't if you close this tax hole loophole which it was it was a tax loop right you know actually then you need other people saying well on the other side you know we need that money for this this and this and it will be unfair so the real concern is you get you know actually bad policies as a result because you're only listening to one argument all the time yeah a very biased
Speaker 1argument it's an interest interested yes yeah what about then uh at the more local level i mean have you seen similar things happening within local governments or is this just you know for the for
Speaker 2the boys at the top no i mean so local government at the moment is a complete disaster zone um it's been called a kind of crisis of public administration um and it all goes back to actually uh the lord pickles uh if if you remember him he was um local government minister and he abolished this thing called the audit commission in 2015 which oversaw the audits of all the local government just last year the national audit office refused to sign off the uk's public sector accounts because it said it couldn't get accurate information about local government spending so just one in 10 local government authorities had submitted uh accurate spending information i mean it's really mad you've got 129 councils hadn't submitted accounts for over two years and what you've got is a series of councils going bust now you've had thorough you know woking got you know problems in birmingham it's like and and it's emerging these crazy stories where they went on wild borrowing sprees and made really dodgy investments um and i think you know this is like um and this were people like running the council you know so we've got a real problem we're at local government And whether it's corruption or whether it's just absolutely kind of inexcusable kind of incompetence or disdain for the system. And, you know, yeah, it was kind of mad exuberance with public money.
Speaker 1Right, right, right.
Speaker 2You know, I mean, there's some super poor decision making, which is leaving council literally bust. You know, and this is council that are meant to deliver the social safety network, right, at a local level. So, I mean, this is an area that, you know, we've also been campaigning for the government to have a new proper domestic corruption offence. So we have a criminal offence of misconduct in public office, but it basically can't be used against anyone who's in a high position. You know, okay. It's only ever been used against very junior prison officers and police officers. I mean, we did research. It was like 98% of prosecutions were like junior or mid-level employees. And we found, you know, ever of prosecutions, there's four cases where they successfully managed to get someone who held a senior position. So we need a new domestic corruption, a corruption in public office offence. And we need to look at how this can also. Apply to people in, you know, very senior positions of local government. But we desperately need to restore some kind of oversight mechanisms in local government spending.
Speaker 1Wow. That is mind blowing. Jesus Christ. Yeah. So this is quite all pervasive then throughout all levels and branches of government. And you said that it's gotten worse over the past five years. I think that's what you said. Why is that exactly? I mean, I've got my. And I could probably guess when you look at some of the characters involved.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, it's a really good question. I do think. I think that in the UK, we've always been a bit. I had a don't look, don't find approach to corruption. So we don't really have. We've only very recently set up a police unit that looks at corruption in the UK. And it's not even a permanent thing yet. It's just a. I mean, that was like literally earlier this year. So, you know, we're in a situation where there's nowhere you can report it. Corruption. So if you want to report corruption in the UK, you have to find an obscure bit of your local police forces website and you submit an online complaint. And you never hear back. Basically, you know, so. Wow. And so this don't look if you don't look, you don't see it kind of approach as worked for a while. Right. You know, a very good country. We don't have any corruption. We don't. Yeah. And we don't have, you know, have to pay bribes to see a doctor. We don't have, you know, get past a policeman in the street. But I think that, you know, actually, the Boris Johnson era did really change that because I think you saw a level of kind of really open flouting of rules and this sense of, you know, his support for Owen Paterson. Despite the fact that he had really breached the rules, you know, it was a sense that they really were above the rules.
Speaker 1Yeah. Kind of arrogant macho boys club, it felt like, you know, just, you know, and that coincided with Trump as well, bringing in this kind of lone leader, this strong man kind of, yeah, just arrogance, I suppose, you know, and complete disdain for the broader structure of government that they were a part of.
Speaker 2Yeah. And it's interesting because, you know, charismatic politicians. And it's interesting because, you know, charismatic politicians were none of the sticks, you know, so like, actually, at the end of the day, there were enough decent people in the Conservative Party to say, no, this is no good. And they did get rid of Boris Johnson. So for a lot of people, they're like, oh, the system works, you know, we don't think that's a sign of, you know, the system working because you could have had a different composition of the Conservative Party that like we've seen with the Republicans in the US don't think that's a problem. Yeah. So we need stronger checks and balances. And so, you know, the Labour government made, when they were in opposition, they made a lot of havens. this you know boris was like a absolutely easy target you know wallpaper gate you had the holidays and mystique you had you know i mean just you know crazy stuff going on um and they promised in their manifesto to create an ethics and integrity commission and and to strengthen the rules um and we were you know really hopeful that you know this is stuff that is quite cheap to do sends a really big political statement early on and we're still waiting for any sense of you know what the new government is actually going to do on this um so you know the revolving door between business and government ministers and you know big business it's got no teeth you know it's absolutely hopeless it's like the regulator can send a letter saying this doesn't look good and that's it there's no fining powers there's you know there's no enforcement no punishment or anything yeah and then you know the conflicts of interest in government like the national office again just last year found like they are just in crisis you know they're not really being enforced most departments like aren't doing it properly it's kind of so um you know we really desperately need this ethics and integrity commission um and you know we need ordinary people to actually show feel they can do something about this and show they care about it because i think the trouble is what we've seen again and again is that doing anything about this is not seen as a vote winner so people think you know we'll fix cnhs or we'll fix the cost of you know we'll do these things but what they're ignoring is that actually how people feel about their politicians is really fundamental you know and people need to feel good about the people representing them so taking steps to actually show that politicians are going to have stronger rules and are going to be policed properly for keeping those rules um you know actually would be like it would be a really popular really good step a lot of people are really fed up with feeling that politicians you know just don't seem to play by the same rules as the rest of us as i mentioned
Speaker 1earlier why wouldn't a political party take this on as one of their main key issues then because yeah there is such mass disillusionment and distrust in government and for good reason that anyone seeming to be taken this seriously would really be on to a vote winner surely so why wouldn't a party get behind this is it because you know pretty much everybody across the political spectrum are beneficiaries of the system as it stands or are there actually voices within parliament who are you know advocating for this
Speaker 2um i mean i think there's some you know actually it was like a really key platform the labor manifesto you know the restoring trust i think it's the the issue is like how do you restore trust is it by making sure people can see their gp or is it by people feeling that you know the politicians are good people they're kind of but it's kind of both you can't do one without the other right but the the second bit about feeling like your politicians are good people have any reaction on that has been missing so in a way you know labor and the lib dems actually have been quite you know said we need these reforms and but it you know look we're in very turbulent times i can understand like why it drops down the priority list it's that kind of nice to have it's yet you know but we think that's a mistake because actually this is stuff that is pretty quick pretty easy and will make people feel better about politicians right
Speaker 1well that's amazing to know that it that it's quick cheap and easy and you mentioned because i want to move on to some of the solutions now it's a way that we can make this happen and ways that people can actually get behind the cause and support you guys and support the uh the issue generally you mentioned as an example at the start the nordic countries are doing this way better than most and it it doesn't go amiss on me that like they're also the countries that that sort of come up highest in happiness and equality they have a lot less of the um the social ills that come as a result of inequality um and i think that's a really good point and i think that's a so they seem to be doing something right over there what are they doing how are they doing it
Speaker 2and can it work over here yeah so this is actually um a complicated one because they don't actually have better rules they have a culture a culture of how politicians behave and and i think there are kind of probably some specific um things about that so the question is in the uk could we just presume that we could create a culture you know and i think that's a it's obviously working the nordic countries but i think you know the problem is you know i'm just not sure at the moment the culture is is not right at the moment westminster and you need a culture shift so how do you get that culture shift do you go around saying to people oh you've got to behave better or do you have some hard-edged rules say when you don't behave well this is going to happen to you it's a perennial debate i think if you look at you know certainly in our focus groups most of the public want stronger penalties on politicians to make them behave um so you know i had exactly that thought you know let's look at what the nordic countries are doing but they're doing a lot of stuff very differently to us and we we can't just jump from where we are to where they are like yeah we we're going to need some some help with stronger stronger rules i'm afraid or some rules
Speaker 1let's talk about that then so what can we action sort of you know immediately that that would work for where we're at where we're starting from that would significantly help this this cause
Speaker 2yeah so you know there are various things and i think like no one should underestimate you know when they feel rage about something you know write your mp don't forget to harass your mp you know it all right to the pm you know actually that is in like i think people feel oh it's not going to do anything but you know actually the more letters that mps have in their inboxes saying why isn't you know the government actually having proper rules to stop big business you know donating to politicians for instance why are they letting you know foreign billionaires fund our parties you know let's get serious let's have some really tough rules around uh elections you know let's get serious let's have some really tough rules so i think that no one should underestimate that just doing that is really important obviously there are quite a lot of petitions out there like you know 38 degrees um i i think you know we all need to certainly we're thinking more about like what kind of you know can we offer more people for people to do um to feel like they can do something about this because i think the worst thing is if people feel they feel really angry about it but they feel really powerless yeah and actually you know there are some really easy and important steps that you know we can do and i think make the government do at the end of the day because we do need the government to um take this seriously and the more people flag it to them and say you promised us an ethics and integrity commission why why haven't you done it you know what are you doing to clean up politics um the more they will have to think actually
Speaker 1or we better do something about it support for this yeah so in terms of how that is enforced then are we talking about things like transparency some kind of like uh register for um members receiving you know gifts or offers or opportunities from private interests are we talking about some kind of penalty or punishment or even removal from the post you know for those who breach those rules and then who enforces that you know do we have a model for that at the moment yeah so i mean
Speaker 2uh they're very on the criminal level we need this new uh corruption public office offense um that's a really clear thing that's not really even on the government's agenda like when we raise it they're like oh what's that it's kind of even though it was recommended by our law commission the country's law commission and they spent a lot of public money coming up with these nice proposals um i think i think you know actually knowing who is influencing government asking you know who they've been meeting with so lobbying transparency we actually need them you know very simple they need to create a central register where you can immediately see who's meeting with ministers what they're talking about and that done on a monthly basis um that would also focus their minds on who they're not meeting with and how they can make sure that actually they do have more public interest groups that they meet with and they think more creatively about how they get more public participation and they're on the ethics and integrity commission i mean that is about you know some we've got some regulators in that space and they need more teeth um so like i mentioned the revolving door you need you need sanctions when ministers breach rules um you know you need independent oversight at the moment all these regulators like some of them could just be abolished tomorrow by the prime minister you know so actually they need to have legal they need to be in the law so they can actually do their job and they need stronger powers so i mean these all recommendations that have been made for probably 15 years or more by some of the top ethics experts in the country wow and they just consistently get shelved and and shelved again and it's um we were quite you know excited that the government was finally going to do something about it with this ethics and integrity commission so if you've got any listeners go and ask your mp what are they doing to make sure that the government is going to bring in an ethics and
Speaker 1integrity commission 100 yeah that shouldn't be underestimated the power of that i mean i've had members of parliament on this podcast and i've had investigative journalists and campaigners and activists from all different fields of interest and that is the one thing that they've all had in common as they say do not underestimate the power of writing to your mp that's what they're there for and i suppose we find ourselves in this kind of catch-22 at the moment because there is this distrust of the system generally this kind of feeling of what's the point they're all corrupt they don't listen to us they're all the same it doesn't make any difference anyway but to a certain degree it is on us to enforce the democratic process and to let our representatives know that we care about this issue and ask them what they're doing about it and nag them and keep on their back about it and if enough of us do that with enough members of parliament that's gotta make a difference so as tough as it is and i do get it you know the level of trust is is at an all-time low in government and you know for very good reason but i think the gravity of this issue certainly warrants a second wave of energy on our part to start making these guys listen to us you know i think you know the fact that people are seriously
Speaker 2thinking about we need a strong man as a leader you know should wake people up like we don't have long we've got to really you know uh get on with this and i just have to tell you a funny story i remember coming in you know walking past victoria station i'd actually just been you know something in the house of parliament and there was um a guy in the street who was drunk and he was going roll up roll up i could be your next mp i take bribes i commit sex offenses you know actually a lot there are a lot of really brilliant mps who actually work so hard you that job is so hard it's like
Speaker 1all your life you know 7 a.m to 1 a.m kind of job a thankless job as well oftentimes isn't it you
Speaker 2know yeah and then you know we've worked with some brilliant mps and they really really care about the stuff and getting it right um and so i think you know we they need to also be supported
Speaker 1and know that yeah that's a great point where can people actually arm themselves then with accurate information on this issue where can they get up-to-date accurate reliable figures and statistics and information because that's something that's so hard these days as well with all the information we've got access to so i think it's a really good point and i think it's a really good actually finding reliable information that isn't spin or hasn't been manipulated in some way or isn't just flat out ai or fabrication you know where are some good places that people can go to
Speaker 2actually get some good intel on this yeah i mean look so spotlight corruption our websites you know www.spotlightcorruption.org um we've got fantastic colleagues who work with like transparency international uk do a lot of um research uk anti-corruption coalition and we've got a lot of people who work with like transparency international uk coalition um is another kind of coalition of you know over 10 organizations working uh on various aspects of corruption um yeah so there there's there are organizations out there um and um you know we'd love more you know support from the public and you know we're certainly looking at ways to expand how the public could engage and campaign more on this because it's such an important issue
Speaker 1100 and how can how can people support your work a spotlight on corruption then i know that they can obviously donate but can they get involved as well and amplify the message and share things does that
Speaker 2help yeah always sharing stuff you know with even on social media no point doing it on x because
Speaker 1whatever you post is just going to get buried amongst the blizzard of elon musk self-love and
Speaker 2propaganda i'm afraid we had to come off x because we weren't getting any engagement same same yeah i
Speaker 1built a massive platform on x and then you know yeah i just had to leave because it became absolutely pointless being on there anymore but it's still it's still important yeah blue sky yeah great
Speaker 2guy on linkedin um and um yeah no we um we can donate you can look at our stuff share our stuff and we are actively looking at how we could provide more actions you know people who care
Speaker 1about this stuff could do so always reach out and ask fantastic well i'll put a bunch of your links in the show notes to this as well so people can click and go and follow you on socials or put a link to the website as well because there's tons of stuff on there for people to look at as well and get a feel for the issue lastly before i let you go i'm going to squeeze one more in if that's okay um could we just finish up with trying to trying to rally the troops here why is this so
Speaker 2important it is ultimately about whether we're going to have democracy in this country or not you know at the end of the day and and um whether we get you know proper money public spending spent in the right places uh whether the uk is a fair place to live um and you know whether we feel like we've got the you know people who are governing us who are doing the right thing in the public interest um so i think you know we've got to tackle these things to make sure that people do believe in democracy and they do believe that they can have a say in government it's about our own mental health as well right and having hope uh and feeling like you know day to day we're living in the
Speaker 1kind of country we want to live in and a system that we can believe in as well where we feel genuinely represented and respected as a part of an active actual democracy that represents our interests rather than the interests of a tiny tiny less than one percent of the population
Speaker 2and can i just say that because we do work with um people who like you know colleagues for instance in georgia you know where you see like your country where you suddenly see massive democratic backsliding and suddenly you know journalists civil society groups just being disappeared off the streets and you know in white vans or you know people don't know what they've got until they lose it and we can't afford to lose it because you know it's so precious what we have our democracy our ability to you know speak freely um and and you know we really need to protect that amen amen well
Speaker 1on that note i think that's a beautiful way to round off susan thank you so much for giving us your time today we really appreciate you taking time out to chat with us it's been a fascinating conversation and you know long may you continue to shine light on the bad guys uh spotlight on corruption and i will get all the links in the show notes and i hope that everyone gets involved in this and amplifies what you guys are doing and hope for a day when uh you know things can
Speaker 2be different brilliant thanks james thank you so much see you soon bye bye dr susan holey ladies
Speaker 1and gentlemen give her a big loud round of applause for the awesome work that she's been doing for 20 years to expose the behind the scenes behavior of our governments corruption is a cancer in the heart of our democracy which needs to be dealt with now and as susan has just outlined it's not an unfathomable ask the many ways protecting our democracies from corruption already exist and are already being practiced and enforced to great success in several places around the world already so i say let's go for it please check out spotlight on corruption's website at spotlight corruption.org and they're also as susan said on blue sky also at spotlight corruption.org go and delve into all the information and resources available there follow them on their socials amplify their output and get involved if you're able to donate as well every little does help and if nothing else please do the next time you hassle your mp about whatever make sure you bring up this issue with them if you can't be links will be in the show notes you can click straight there and whilst you're there you can give the podcast a subscribe that's it for this week i will see you on the next episode whenever that shall be in the meantime head over to james kennedy uk on instagram and facebook where you can catch my weekly wednesday night 8 p.m live readings of excerpts from my upcoming book loud medicine thanks for the support thanks for listening as always take care of yourself take care of each other fight the power enjoy the sunshine
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