744 - The Invite with Rashida Jones and Will McCormack

Hey, this is John, standard warning for people who are in the car of their kids. There's some swearing in this episode. Hello, and welcome. My name is John August. My name is Craig Mason. In this episode 744 of Script Notes, it's a podcast about screenwriting. Craig, you brought the wine, right? You brought the wine. I told you to bring the wine. You didn't tell me. You didn't tell me to bring wine. Okay. You knew I did say this. I would talk about this. You didn't. We have come up with a thought of you. It said that you bring wine. I would have gotten the wine, but you didn't say bring the wine. This is what you do. That's very good. Very good. That's it. I mean, that's everyone's impression of South Raucanus. Is not even good. It's bad impression. Today on the show, we welcome Rashida Jones and Wilma Kormak to talk about their new film about sex, marriage, shame, ambition, therapy, gender roles, and the risk of engaging with your neighbors. The film is called the invite and it's out in theaters now. Will Rashida. Welcome to Srippnodes. Thank you for having us on Srippnodes. This is, we made it. Finally, I know you guys, your podcast has been a land played in the dark and I've only really had two career goals in my, it's being a guest on Srippnodes and doing a movie with Penelope Cruz. So, I've accomplished both with the invite. So it's all done. You're done. You're done. Wow. That is, I can't tell you how often we hear that exact thing. Us and Penelope Cruz. What else is there really? We're done. Well, I mean, if we could just get her on the show, then we just, we'd complete everybody's wishless all at once. Incredible. Incredible. You guys, this movie is so good and I urge people out there to go find it and see it. It's, it's terrific. You didn't mention flan, John, which I now know is pronounced flan. Flan, not flan. It's flan. Flan, not flan. That's it. That's it. Really good. Yeah. Yeah. Just fantastic. So this will be great. I can't wait to dig into how you guys wrote this because sometimes when I watch something, I start to get sweaty and scared because I begin to imagine myself having to write it. And, and this looked hard. This looked difficult. So I'm excited about this. Well, it's also such a rare case because it's a remake of a movie that most Americans will not have seen. And so I want to talk about sort of that process of adaptation of an adaptation. It was also shot basically entirely here in Los Angeles, which is awesome. It's not the kind of movie we often see made. It's a chamber dramedy with four people just knocking it out of the park. You guys did as well. And in our bonus, I remember, I want to talk about this very familiar feeling of saying goodbye to a project that you love, but that never quite happened because several of us on this call have had that happen. And so I want to talk about that. Like I'll never never never never never never never never never never no rejection in my life. All right. To be her. But as we were getting this zoom setup and getting our headphones in, you guys have a great dynamic and I we love writing partner. So can you give us a sense of your origin story and how you guys came to write together? Yeah. So Will and I were set up on a date in 1999. Bill's sister Mary McCormick, the great actress Mary McCormick, we did a movie together and she was like, you have to meet my brother. He's your soulmate. And she was right. She was right in a sense. We were we dated for three weeks. We were pretty drunk the whole time. Yeah. And Will left me for his girlfriend and his last his ex girlfriend. He wasn't over. And I was devastated. But that was a great thing because we've lasted more than most relationships because it's now been 27 years. 27 years. 27 year. We're like brother and sister who dated briefly. It's not weird at all. Which happens sometimes. That's like me and my sister. That's the same. Yeah. The same dynamic. Yeah. She's just make it more awkward. I will. I kissed your sister at a at me or Z once. Just. It was just the New Year's Eve kiss. So it was going to happen. What's called the name? It's wild. Why at the in LA in LA. We are out at a club someplace and like with a group of friends and she was friends with friends and it's your team. Was everybody single? Yeah. I was also with it was like what's up New Year's Eve kiss. So I did not make out. By the way, I just want to say this is the kind of discussion that I figured would happen because right away we're into some pretty weird shit. And this movie is absolutely about honesty and the way that you guys just accelerate towards intimacy and honesty is incredible. But I know I'm short circoning. John has a method that I and then my method is no method. So I will I will give him. Well, I mean, Chris, we jumped over like you guys met and dated very briefly. But then how do you go from like, okay, we're not dating anymore to we should write movies together. We should write together. How did that happen? That happened slowly. Both writing separately. What how did it come to be? No, we made each other writers. I'm not going to speak for well, but we were both wanted to be writers forever. And I think some combination for me of like being the youngest child, like going to a school that like literally spit out comedy writers like tick tacks. And I wasn't one of them and I wasn't in the lampoon. I didn't feel like I was anointed as a young adult to be a writer. Yeah, I wanted to be a writer my entire life. I just had nothing to say. I mean, I would just like, you know, I when I would sit down to write, I would write about wanting to be a writer. Oh, God. You know, and then you get older and you go through heartbreak and, you know, I met Rashida and we had both gone through heartbreak and we sat down to write. So I suggested forever, but you know, I credit Rashida with like finding my voice. You know, it was until I had the right partner. When you write something and you can hear the sound of your own voice and you can actually believe it for a moment is a psychedelic moment as a person. It's like the greatest feeling in the world that I don't think that I felt that until I sat down to write with Rashida. Dan. Also, having been an actor, it was like when I was younger, it was so liberating to know that you could write whenever you want to write. Like that was so liberating. You weren't waiting for other people to tell you when to work. You could just sit down and work and for someone who likes to work hard, I was like, oh my God, you mean, all I have to do is sit at my desk and type, I can do that. Yeah. What is your process? Are you guys in together in a room? Is I one hand on the keyboards, one person beside? Are you handing stuff off? What tends to work for you guys? It's shifted over the years, but the beginning, it was the two of us side by side. Like if I wasn't smoking a cigarette, I would be holding Will's hand. But, but you know, in our 20s, it was or no, sorry, 30s. We kind of started toying with it in our 20s and then our 30s is when we got serious about it when we completed our first screenplay together. But that was literally side by side reading the scenes out loud, writing the scenes together, trading off computers sometimes to computers side by side. This is fascinating to me because what I think is unique here is the length of time that you guys took to become. Our process was not this okay, boom, right out of the gate, we're going to write a script in four weeks and try and sell it, get some money, write another one. There's this interesting like wine like process of many years going by. Did you feel over time? Oh, now we're actually good. Like a ride. Now we're getting somewhere. Yeah. I guess the first time was, you know, we finished writing Slesa and Jesse forever and we gave it to like a group of trusted friends, either writers or producers or execs to get some feedback and some notes. And the notes were so good which made us feel like we wrote something that was at least good enough to get notes on, you know? Yeah. So that the note wasn't good job. Yeah, it wasn't like, you can't do something else, get another job. Yeah. Right. You guys are both really good actors. Yeah, right. Yeah, I kind of know. Yeah. But yeah. I think that. I think exposing it to oxygen, you know, like was like, okay, this is it. We're actually now proclaiming that we're writers in the world. So this is either going to hit or it's not going to hit. And then I would say the real apex moment of my life at the time was like going out with that script and having like lots of people make offers on the script. Oh, that's great. It's an incredible feeling and validating. I'm sure for the two of you, especially because I'm guessing that when you are an actor and you are trying to transition towards a director or a writer or producer, a lot of people are going to go, oh, that's cute. And you have to get past that perception barrier where then people go, oh, okay. Yeah. Who in LA is not writing a script? And what actor in LA is not writing a script? I'm sorry. Like, no disrespect. No, it's true. You vote a coffee shop and 10 people are writing screenplays at any given moment in LA. There's there. Yeah. There's there's an enormous amount generating. And the one thing about writing is it's naked. It's just what it is. It doesn't matter how good looking you are. It doesn't matter who your parents are where you went to school. Nothing matters. It's just that. And clearly you guys made it through that barrier and then some. I can't. I'm very excited to talk about this script. And as we get into the script, it's about a couple dynamics. And so I'm curious like the dynamics of you as a writing team do have roles in terms of the process, what you tend to do in terms of like one person is the let's try everything and one person is the like we got to get down to work. Why is the conductor? How does it work in your guys' writing relationship? - Yeah, I think that we had different strengths when we first started out and we've developed the strengths that we didn't have as we continue to work together. But, you know, I think Rashida has such a perceptive keen insight into the overall picture of the thing and has really great, can see the project from 30,000 feet and always know where we're going. I tend to get sort of like lost in character and in the moment and in dialogue and Rashida has such a handle on structure. I think I've gotten better with structure over time and I think that we've complemented each other but that's those were our strengths from the jump and those are things that I think really helped us at the beginning because we had roles and we knew how to play them. And, you know, also being actors and having read thousands of screenplays and felt like a lot of them hadn't been read out loud, we got everything on its feet. We would act out every scene and hopefully-- - We had blocking. - We had blocking. - It felt lived in. - Oh, I love to hear that. I love hearing that. You know, I've said this many times when, you know, working with producer Lindsay Durand who's a legend and this is 10 years ago, I started writing and I would give her like, oh, here's a scene and she would say, where are these people standing? It was, and from then on, it's now been, you know, a decade where I need, before I can even write a scene, where are they standing, how closer they? What does the room look like? What does it smell like? What does the floor? And can I ask a question about the movie? - Please, we can absolutely get it to the movies. - Please, don't worry. - I really, really want to. So in this movie, you have two couples, there's a couple that is on the rocks. They're married couple, they've got a kid, they're on the rocks and they've invited over, or at least one of them is invited over these, this other couple, you have four people for great actors in one small space. This is a realistically sized apartment. In fact, it's part of the thing that you guys do so smartly is explain why it is larger than the average apartment in San Francisco, because there is that thing that happens, for instance, in friends, like, what apartment, how does a lady works at a coffee shop before this apartment that would be $2 million a month? So you explain that, but it is still a small space. My first of many questions about how you approach writing the invite is, how did you take advantage of the fact that the space was so confined? How did you turn this compact physical space into a plus as you were thinking about each scene and the story? And the fact that this movie wasn't able to really go anywhere beyond kitchen, living room, office, bedroom, a little bit of bedroom, a little bit of kids room, and foyer. - First before we answer that question, I just, we wanna give like big ups to Cessgue, who wrote the original Spanish version, sentimental, aka the people upstairs, because, as you guys know, making something from nothing, and then making something your own from something that exists or two different processes. And he wrote this beautiful script and made this beautiful movie in Spain, which apparently, we haven't seen the other ones, but was adapted in Italy, in South Korea, I think in Switzerland or France or something. There's something so inherently rich about this storytelling and placement of it. And the movie is about space. It's about sharing space with other people. So it is about like sharing sonic space with other people, potentially intimate space with other people. - Yes. - And then like doing house tours and like, and sharing and boasting about space with other people. So like we got very lucky because there's something baked into the whole premise of the movie. That's what we actually really resonated with. Like we love the idea that it was this chamber piece. We love the idea that like we were restricted to these walls. And that our job was to find the turns and the human emotion and the kind of, you know, the dynamics and the secrets that are kept in the secrets that are revealed within this like confined space. Like that was exciting to us. - Yeah, I think you should get deeper into the writing process in the movie that you start to see the claustrophobia as an advantage and think, oh my gosh, they're trapped. We're trapped in this room. - Right. - And then I think we gave a lot of time and attention to make sure that the turns of the movie really land. And there are some incredible turns. But because you're in this confined space, you really want to make sure that those turns turn and are meaningful. So a lot of time was spent on making sure that we got that right. - And remember at the beginning, Diggs, we were doing this thing. Like we were like, why would Joe stay? Why would Joe stay? Like how do we get Joe to stay? But when you introduce Penelope Cruz, if it's your room, it makes it a very easy decision to stay. You know what I mean? It's like this funny thing. You have this like giant, like writing conundrum and then not to be like casting as you're like, oh, and there you go. No more questions asked. You know, like, there you go. - The authority that you guys invested in her and that she brings is kind of remarkable. I completely agree. I was just sort of blown away by how in this for some, there was the person who spoke the least, also felt the most dangerous and the most exciting. - Why is it? - And then ultimately. - Yep. - And then when, you know, I'm jumping to the end a little bit so some spoiler alerts here, but this relationship she's in, which seems perfect is not. And when she finally snaps, it is one of the most startling and hysterical things. I've never heard somebody say the line, shut the fuck up so well so many times within 10 seconds. That's not even a question. Now I'm just being a fan. - Penelope just has so much God given talent. I mean, Rashida and I would be at the monitor and think you could do this whole movie just on Penelope's face listening. She's that interesting on film. - Gravitas. - Yes. - Like just Gravitas. - And she brought Mystique to Pena that was not on the page. You know, like she just brought world class talent to the role and was just fascinating to watch her work. - And she brought so much specificity and we could talk about this later, but she really, she's such a fine actor. Like she's just one of the best we have. So like she had so many questions. She was so curious and she wanted to create detail and she wanted this character to be real and whole and deep and complex. And you know, she was like a joy to work with because she, you know, she sort of the, she is this, even though she has her own path, she is the mouthpiece for like the things we're trying to communicate about relationship and like the bigger thematic stuff, you know? - That's a great segue into what was different about this movie versus the original movie because she's a character who changed a lot between the Spanish version and this version from what I've been able to read about this. - Well, it's interesting. I said, "Lep to hear how." - So can you give us a quick recap on the Spanish movie and how you came upon the Spanish movie? Was it brought to you? Did you find it? And what those initial conversations were about like what can stay the same and what needs to change? - Well, it was brought to many writers and you know, we definitely had a pitch on the job. This was, this was not an offer. David Permit saw the movie in Toronto and acquired the rights and this movie had a whole different cast and different directors and we've been on the picture for a couple of years. But I think that when Rashida and I both watched Sentimental of the people upstairs, you watch movies and you watch them and think like, "Oh my God, I love this." However, how great would it be if we could do this? And we actually got the opportunity to do that, which is so rare. You know, this version is a lot ronchier. It's a lot dirtier and it's a lot more propulsive and the ending is a lot different. - Oh, interesting. - Yeah, and I think Rashida and I are always in our work interested in how people fall in love and why people fall in love and how hard it is to remain in love and if they'll remain in love, we've been through a lot in our own lives where we've lost parents and we're parents now and we have partners. We're not into functional relationships like Joe and Angela, but it is hard to be in relationships and be married with children. So this movie also met us at a moment that felt right for us, but also we didn't want to reinvent the wheel. You know, like Sasuke's film is very good. We just were able to find our own way in. - Can't talk to me about that pitch. Like as you were pitching and describing things, what were the changes you were pitching? Like how do you think you got the job? - Well, I think most of the time, Will and I like to engage in like conversations about relationships and we ask people a lot of questions about their own relationships. We talk very candidly about our own and that's usually when we get jobs, it's because we all connect as people and we think the same thing is light us up. The same things we want to talk about, we find the same thing's funny as the people who are hiring us, we'll work with. But for us, what was extremely clear, and sorry, this is a spoiler alert, was the ending because in the original, there is this feeling in the original, like will they won't they? There's a little bit of like an olive branch, but he's a musician, the original. And we were like, it's got to play the piano. Has to play the piano. Has to. Because it's just his arc. It's Jack O'Brien's piano basically, right? Totally. Yes. And I thought, oh my God, he's going to walk in the other room at the end of the movie, and he's going to play the piano, and it's going to destroy it. It's going to destroy me. And then he didn't. And the rendings great. But you know, I think when we got on the phone with the producers, we're like, he has to play the piano. He's got to play the piano. Yeah. There's no other version. And that could mean it's an apology to himself for abandoning his previous younger self. It's an apology to her for abandoning himself or their relationship. It's a, it's saying, I want to start a new with you, with myself. Who knows? But the idea is like, there's a willingness. There's an openness that we don't see Joe have for the entire movie, so shut down. He just opens it up a little bit. You know, you're like, oh God, that's great. People can change a little bit, you know? Yeah. You also see, I think, you know, in the end, why she tells a story about how they met. And you can see this memory of attraction and this memory of excitement. She talks about, she ran 11 blocks back to the bar to see him play and to talk to him but what you do get in the ending you describe and this is so writing wise, it is, it's kind of startling to me that that didn't happen in the original because it's a perfect circle, which is what you want. What you see is, oh, this is why she ended up with it. Yeah, this is the guy she loves. Because you know, there's something that happens and I just love this in the movie. We're just in full spoilers. This couple that Joe is resentful of because they had this incredibly loud sex all the time at night. They turn out to be involved in polyamory and in group sex, pegging, so much pegging. And they invite these two to say, hey, would you like to basically swing with us or have group sex? And Seth Rogan's character does something that I related to so deeply and I love that you guys were smart about having him do it a lot. It wasn't just once you have to do it a bunch of times, which is you're saying that you want to have sex with us, including me. I would love for you guys to talk about because so much of this is it's uncomfortable but also beautiful. How you write towards this really raw insecurity and honesty that people, especially people, you know, in their 40s and 50s have about their own bodies and sex. So much of this is about pulling the skin away and getting to this incredibly uncomfortable topic. How? Well, you put with permission. We had this, we had a very unusual process on this movie in which it was very quick. Because this version, we had once the other versions fell apart, Will and I had suggested Olivia because we'd really loved Booksmart and kind of knew her a little bit. And it just immediately, the momentum started and it was fast, fast, fast, we were pre-production as soon as we knew it. And of course, like, you know, there was this fantasy of like a very long rehearsal period that got shrunk down to like five days. And those five days were the Monday before filming. So in those five days, we sat with the director and the actors and you know, it was everything from them sort of downloading their concerns, their wants, their desires, their ideas. And then, intermittently, some great really like explosive collaborative moments where like things were emerging in the room that were not in the draft that we had written for the other directors. This was essentially our rewrite. Like the rewrite was happening in real time. We're like, we're getting ideas. And then as you have to do as screenwriters synthesizing all of these, you know, stars and galaxies in the sky and then going and drawing a map and seeing what works and doesn't work and how to actually execute those things if we were so inclined to execute those things. One of the great ideas that came out of that process was pushing the invite to the extreme and that idea of like, you know, it was making us laugh really hard him, you know, being like, wait, me, me too. And so and with Seth's permission and Seth's like very much Seth's involvement, like we started to like pitch this idea. We just like ask asks it over and over and over again. I would. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so improbable as it is that anybody would come over to your house and ask you and your wife to have sex. Yes. Especially when you guys barely talk to each other nicely and you don't have sex with each other. So we were really invested in making this as realistic as could be in the context of this movie, you know, yeah. It's funny that moment, but it's also just so vulnerable, right? Like there's a adage that Pixar that they espoused, which is, you know, you admire people for their strengths, but you fall in love with them for their vulnerabilities. And you know, you love you, you, you, you, you admire Joan Angel to because they're so funny, but it's you really fall in love with them when they, when they get vulnerable and raw and real with each other. And you know, in a movie that's, I guess, a sex comedy, it's not about the sex at all. It's not about the act. It's not about penetration, right? It's not about pegging. It's not about it's about, it's about, it's about penetration. Literally, we were just all we wanted to do is talk about pegging in a movie. Yeah, D.P. Yeah, D.P. We're bad. We brought double penetration to the big dream, but who's afraid of Virginia Woolf with pegging was always the goal, but nailed it. Thank you. It's so incredible to see these people and they're, they just sex is about wanting to be seen and wanting to be heard. And like, you know, when people have a fair, so it's not about the sex, it's about the person seeing a part of you that your partner no longer values or is too tired to, to see in real life. So, you know, we got a chance to talk to Esther Porell at Lankz, who is one of our heroes and we'll have to work. That's a podcast. And it was just so illuminating to sit and talk with someone who's able to unpack that in a way that feels so cinematic and so right. In a movie that feels like it's so much about sex, it's really not. It's about wanting to be understood and heard and seen. She also has this way of taking what feels like dysfunction and then funneling it back through the relationship instead of like making it this outward spreading away, you know, disbursement, spreading away from each other and fighting distance like taking that same energy and putting it back into the relationship, which made her a perfect, wonderful collaborator for this movie. Well, let's talk about Esther Porell and religion between that and Pina because it feels like an important change was that Pina actually enters into the movie with insight into couples dynamics that are as remarkable and has the danger of like solving the problem of the movie and therefore you have no movie. So talk to us about, you know, bringing in somebody with such expertise and how that creates a complication rather than solving problems. Yes. It was definitely an avatar for Esther, but again, Penelope very astutely did not want Pina to be able to solve her problems as well as other people's problems. Right. So it was like finding this balance of like making sure she had enough of her own sort of anger and reactionary behavior and also wisdom around other people's relationships. And for us, it was really important that she, when they do have that blow up and she's like, shut the fuck up, shut the fuck up. That she resolved quickly. Like she, yes. Apologize is very quickly and like so much of relationship is like how quickly can you recover? And so like she does. Basically, you're over there. Yeah, it's all right. So like, and they're back, you know, they're back and then they're gone. So in a way, it was like she, they get to like, you know, we got to this point where like they shouldn't be perfect. They should have their own problems. They've only been together a year and he's also constantly correcting her. So let's let her explode at that. But then also let's show her doing something in real time that's like actually really helpful to other people, which is like, you apologize and you move on. Can I give you another compliment if I'm? Please. Please. What is so smart in the writing is you have a character who is seemingly very settled and actualized. Papina is seems to be smarter than everybody, wiser than everybody and more in control of the situation than anybody. It's like she's already seen the movie. She's one of those characters, which I love. And you do very smartly realize that at some point she can't just be this sort of wise woman on the mountain. She has to also be a human being with her own vulnerability and her own failures. But what's so smart about what you guys did was that you didn't just have that happen before that happens. Seth Rogan's character Joe says something in response to a story that he hears from Hawk. That is mean. And she gets angry at him. It's so smart to say before a wise perfected character shows that she's not wise and perfect. You need to light this fire. It's like I. somebody finally hit a nerve there. And then all of you, her very well-constructed, actualized self sort of crumbles down because she got vulnerable, she got emotional, she got angry. That gun went flying everywhere, everyone died. And then she apologized. It's just such brilliant writing and such a smart way of approaching a character. You just knew instinctively you had to trigger her before she could reveal. Thanks. Well, thanks. Again, so much credit to Penelope because she's so present and we always, we envisioned coming out of that monologue, of course, like Joe is going to say something about pegging. Like that's going to be his summary is going to be about pegging. It's not going to be about a step away. And it is mean, right? Because he's uncomfortable. He's uncomfortable. He's uncomfortable. And that's why he's mean. But also they had this moment of connecting, not the second time, but the first time, you know, when they're alone and they're smoking the joint, like she's sharing with him personal details of how she met Hawk, how she was a therapist and confiding in him and they're sort of connecting. And he says, how did you know your marriage was over? I mean, he is sort of treating her like a therapist and she is invested in him. So she's now disappointed him because he can't be serious in this very important vulnerable moment that her husband just had or boyfriends just had. But like, you know, again, Penelope is so present that she brought all that like pain and anger to it. You know, it's like she now she just, she was just mad at everybody because of course. It's like it's literally like everyone died. Like she's just suddenly just shot everyone and then just sat down and went, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Everyone's like, I'm sorry. But for those of you at home who are writing screenplays that are about relationships that are focused on people who are fighting, falling in love, fucking fleeing, all the good Fs. First of all, watch this movie and second of all, just listen to what Willem Rashida are saying. The way these characters are essentially bullets at each other. They comfort each other, they connect with each other and then they violate those connections. And everything that happens is because of the way they are either protecting or reaching out. It's just beautifully done and great lessons for for writers who are working on this kind of thing, which is hard to pull off. It was, you know, we're lucky in a sense that we had, you know, that there were different versions of this because we got to live with these characters for a long time and then when you're lucky enough to have a cast like this, it just takes it to the next level in terms of what's possible with character. Rare gift you had is that you got to watch the movie as an audience before having to live with it as a writer. And watching as an audience, I found my allegiance is shifting between the characters as we went through the story. That's her voice. Like, oh, you're fully on her side or his side or, or hawk side after his monologue. How aware were you in that process as you're writing it, thinking about like, okay, where is the audience at at every moment? Because it's one in how these four characters set up bouncing off each other, but the fifth character forces always the audience and what we are feeling and thinking about these characters. What was that discussion like for you guys? You know, for the bread and butter of the story, you know, in this is this incredible jazz quartet and the way these actors are riffing off each other is incredible. But, you know, it was always the primary focus was always set in Olivia, Joe and Angela. And we felt like this was our sort of a story. And then as we got in the room with Edward and Penelope with, you know, Hawke and Pena, those story lines evolved and got better and deeper and richer. And so those started to orbit them and then they all sort of intertwined. But that's great to hear that. You did find that you had changing allegiance. I think that that means that the film is working. But it all started really with Joe and Angela. And then, and then as you get into that and think that that's working and think, oh, no, now, now Hawke and Pena need to catch up here. Like, you know, you don't want Pena just to be this wise person, you know, think that, you know, dictating the relationship and, and you don't want Edward's characters to feel like 40, you want to all to come from like a rooted place of heartbreak. So those characters really evolved. But it started with Joe and Angela. Well, you've established the stakes of the movie are like, are they going to, is this marriage going to last? Right. That is the story. Yeah. That's a fundamental central romantic question. And the answer to the question, we won't spoil everything is ambiguous at the end, but also you've made progress. You see like the funnel of options leading forward, it's clear. I mean, it's, it is literally stated by Pena. This relationship is over. It's over. Yeah. Either you go your separate ways or you start a new one with each other. And that is so smart and it's so lovely because at the end, we understand that we're not going to get the answer, but we know it's going to be this. That's the choice. That's a stare. That's all a stare. And it is, it's so important that you guys had her say or a new relationship because we do, of course, naturally, the romantics in us. And also for those of us who've been married a long time, I mean, John and I've been married a long time. I don't know how long you guys are in. I just hit 30. No way. 30 years of marriage. Wow. So long. It's amazing. Amazing. I know. I know. Wow. It did occur to me that there's probably a metric that we'll never know. On the one hand, like how many relationships, like married relationships, improve after watching this movie and how many divorces occur after watching this movie because it goes to something pretty rough. Well, if you, but it was, we take polls with the audiences to see what they think happens to them after and it's pretty split. And I wonder if that's any indicator of whether or not the couple's going to make it. It's possible, but it was, it is, you know, in a movie that was so honest about the things that are hard about relationships. It was also honest about the idea that it can continue, which I think was just a lovely hope. That's beautiful. And thank you. And I think that is truly romantic. And Joe and Angela, in Joe's last sort of moment, you know, we wanted that overture to feel like a tender mercy, right? Like, you know, when you're in a marriage for a long time, it is hard and you don't have to be perfect. You don't even have to be good, but you do have to try. You have to try. You have to try. And there's a choice that you guys made in the beginning that I thought was really interesting tonally because so much of this is about tone. In a normal movie, you have a scene like you had where Joe and Angela are arguing and the people are going to be here any minute. And where's the wine? And why are you doing this? And then normal movie to hear, ding dong, and they'd open the door and I am pretend that everything's fine. Those people would come in unaware. And you guys were like, now they heard the arguing and they're going to say it from the jump. You feel like this married couple is exposed in front of these people, which I thought was fascinating. It was again a really smart writing choice that sets up, I think the expectation for every scene that follows, which is no one's getting away with any bullshit. No lies tonight. You can try. You can lie about whether or not you knocked on our door to make a stop fucking. You can lie about how happy you are with each other. You can lie about anything you want. None of it will work. And what ensues is such a fascinating exploration of forced honesty. Really. I can't say enough. Thank you. That's also, I'm going to give a little credit to Sasuke because Salvo, Salvo, that was the original character who's the firefighter. Fire fighter. He comes in a little hot too. I think when you have Edward Norton, it changes things and he brings like an honesty to it. And he really just cuts through. He's like a laser. It's really fun to put words in his mouth where he gets to just say exactly what's happening. You don't like me. You did come to our door. You guys are fighting, be honest. Be honest. It's so, it's great. It's such a great gift to have because it's like any of those sort of like dumb social veneers that we put on is like it just cuts right through. You took them all the way. Which is actually a difficult writing exercise because a lot of what we do in movies like this is engage in a whole bunch of charades. Until the third act arrives and people break down. Right. You guys are like, no, let's just get right to that. Well, also there's a lot of truths to be revealed and like a lot of turns to take. So like, you know, you want to, we want it to parse them out. You know, you don't want to do it all at once. And again, the structure of the original movie was really great in that way. But like the window was always such an essential piece of information to come out, you know. And even just the fact that they are upstairs having sex, we really wanted to make sure that that moment, even though it's like page 10 or whatever, you want it to feel like a bit of a shock. Even if you know that's what the movie's about, like you should be like, oh my God, he's talking about people having sex upstairs. That's crazy. Why is he doing that? You know, I don't know. I'm a cragdist said in most movies, you know, there's a third act reveal of information that the characters know that the audience knows that the other characters don't know. In this movie, the third act reveals our, it's information that the characters themselves don't really know, or at least they're not willing to admit. And so that's where you go into it. So you have to get all that surface stuff out there pretty quickly so you can actually explore the deeper things. We talked about the pre-production. and it did the five days of rehearsal. But the movie was also shot as a reading in sequence. And so-- What a joy that is. I'm so jealous. Reading through was it three weeks that you're on sound stages? And what was that process like? And talk us through shooting the movie in order. You know, we were a bit in like a newsroom state because we were like, we were churning out pages. So we would really like deliver pages to set. You know, the actors were sort of in their bubble. And once in a while, we'd come on and discuss something if it didn't feel like it was working in real time. But for the most part, you know, we were still-- we were like hammering towards the end because as we said, the week-long workshop process, that was our rewriting week. Yeah. Like on Friday, we had a table read. On Monday or on Tuesday, we started shooting. It's a hell of a weekend, you guys. Yeah. It was a crazy week. It was a-- it was a lot. It's probably the most writing we've ever done, right? In a week. Yeah, getting texts from Edward. How's it going? Yeah. Very encouraging. It's going great. It's going great. Not-- no pressure. No pressure. We were writing a lot during production and rewriting. And we rewrote the ending 20 times. Wow. The ending meaning like the piano ending? The piano ending. The last 10 pages. The last 10 pages. Yeah. And the movie is-- There's a real hairpin turn there. It's really parsimonious. And it's really lean. And it's really spare. And it's really great. Yeah. I think Olivia and Seth really stuck the landing. There was a bit more dialogue that sort of memorializes their relationship. And there was some-- couple speeches about how and why they fell in love and what they will miss. And there's a little bit more tender moments that aren't in the movie. And I think the movie really works. It really lands in a really sparse, lean way. We were like, oh my god, that's it. You can hear the audience sort of go, and it's a great moment. And I love what she did in the edit. For us, I think what was important was pianos at the end. There's some sort of acknowledgement that they're too human to use to love each other. Not just a piano, but her asking about his back-- Right. --his back feels better. Great. She's happy to know that because she's somebody that she's loved, and she's had to suffer through his back for so long. She says, I'm glad. I'm glad for that. Yeah, exactly. I'm glad. And then, then doing like trying to do a tiny bit of admin or about getting separated with their daughter, like those were things that we were like really happy stayed where they were. And then everything else was sort of stripped down, which really made sense with these characters and this hone and propulsion of the movie. It kind of like falls off this cliff and you're left sort of like with your own emotion at the end. This leads me to a question. Now that you've done this, do you feel like there are things that you have learned that you will carry forward to your next script, to your next project? Always, always. Don't you feel that? Any time you get something produced, there's so many lessons in there. I've never been somebody who feels-- neither of us were not somebody who feels so-- we're not word perfect about stuff. Everything has to adapt and breathe and be flexible to the production and the people involved in the production. That's just the way we work because we sort of write in this naturalistic way. There's also some stuff you don't know until the edit. And because both of us have directed, produced, written and acted, we understand the kind of mystery around this process. You can write a perfect script that's perfect for you as you're writing it and reading it out loud. And then you get on stage and maybe there's a weird chair in the background or the actor is just off that day. Or it's not what the director wanted. Or the lighting is weird. Or like, I don't know. It's like the lines crossed or something. And then you get to the end and you're like, it doesn't work. So when you get to production, you get to the edit. Things change so much. And it's no longer like our thing to expedite in a way. Yeah. I'll also say, look, to be a part of this film and to have a theatrical comedy land in the world the way that it's landing is a great feeling. And it's very rare. I mean, we've had so many working writers. We've had so many movies fall apart. They've just been gut wrenching. And the thing that I'll say is like, all the work that you do and all the work that you've done and all the work that you're doing, it matters. It does. Just because the movie didn't get made and just because you didn't get financing or just because it fell apart and that actor scheduled in work, the fact that you're writing and that you're working on your craft, it does matter. It adds up. We're going to save this for the, this is our bonus. This is our bonus. You don't have to pay those to hear this inside as far as I'm concerned. The work is cumulative. And so this was also just one of those moments on the invite where you felt like, oh, God, we've been, she and I have been talking about relationships and how people and why people fall in love for 25 years. And then a project met us at a moment where, by the way, this movie fell apart. I thought we'd go, God, well, here there was another one. And also while we were making it, it's like, you know, we're rewriting, you have to stay flexible with the version of the movie that's emerging. And so even that's difficult. And yet, like we're now, we're experienced enough to know how to do that, like how I had to do that in a week, you know, in my 30s, I would have fallen apart. Would have fallen apart, you know? Yeah. I'm glad you didn't. Congratulations on the movie. It's just phenomenal. So I wish I could go out and check out and see it. It's great. It's available everywhere in the US. And if after you see the movie, then you can watch the other movies because there's obviously this Spanish movie and remade in a ton of other languages. Korea, I think, yeah, there's hundreds of these. But I think we got, I think we got a really good one. We got a great one. Yeah. And hopefully the other ones are specific to their cultures as well, which is, I think it's a great thing. It's time for one cool things. Craig, you said you had a non-game, one cool thing. Well, when you say non-game, I didn't lie, but it is about the gaming industry. Sure. So Samantha Baird, who plays Karla in Baldur's Gate 3, a wonderful person, tipped me off to a report that was, it came from a group in the UK called Outmaking Games. And they're basically a group of LGBTQ plus people in the UK and Europe. So unfortunately, we have to now separate those two who work in the video gaming industry. And the report is, it's a bit shocking and it's sad, but it's also really important. And so I want to get some note for it and we'll put a link in the show notes, of course. But basically what the report is about is censorship. And it is about specifically this kind of soft censorship that's going on. There's a hard censorship that occurs. I think a lot of people are unaware. I was certainly unaware that a number of countries will censor content that is uncensored here in the United States and in other places. For instance, I did not know until after the fact that my show gets censored in the Middle East. So Nick Ophrimon kisses Murray Bartlett, not in the Middle East, he doesn't, this cut it. And it's upsetting. They're remits. Yeah, by the way, episode makes zero sense. So this happens a lot now with video games because in the wake of the last of us really, I think was really the first game that sort of pushed a queer relationship forward in a big way. There's been censorship of games across the world but specifically not surprisingly, Middle East and China, which are huge markets. And what's happening now according to the report is not only does that occur in a kind of hard censorship way, but now companies, developers are starting to sort of internally censor. Like rather than make a game with these relationships that then gets chopped up for or banned outright, they just stop doing it. And so this report is called Trapped in the Network and I think it's an important read. So the directors about making games, James Dodd, Ellie Shapiro and Jasmine Fox, have brought this about along with George Osborne, who's the editor of a memo. And I would love to get this some note. I think this is a cause worth fighting for. And certainly as somebody that loves games and is made a show that adapted a game and is hopefully gonna make another one. That is the queerest game of all time. - Yes, yes, there's a lot of sex happening, but I was gay. - So with everybody, even guys, your movie too, like I'd be interested to see what happens, whether this happens to your movie. So anyway, bit of a downer there are apologies, but Trapped in the Network, it's an important thing to read. So that's my one cool annoying, but hopefully we can make it better thing. - All right, one is very small. In my related one cool thing is a friend of mine works as a translator for American movies going released in France. And so he actually saw your movie and emailed with specific questions about like, what does this line mean in context? Which I just love when a translator is looking for like, "What does this mean?" And specifically, there's a moment in the movie, there's a condom and Seth Rogan says, "What this is like 9/11?" Like since 9/11. And the translator was wondering like, "Well, is that a relationship to like a disaster?" "To a time?" And like, no, no, it means like millennial. It means like a period of time. And it's just such a great example of specific dialogue being specific to a language and to a culture that understands what the context is. And so I'll be curious what he ended up doing to change that line. to make a match there, but it's just fun to see how specific a line comes across in different language. Yeah. I wonder what it's referred to in France. It must have it. They must have, I mean, it, you know, something. Yeah. So I suggested, like, you know, basically the millennium, because that's about the-- We can suggest a line because the alt line, because our original line was, wow, I haven't seen a condom since 2001. Yeah. So that's-- You can take that one. Yeah. That's a simple and direct. But like 9/11 is-- it's fun. It gets a lot because-- Yeah. I'm going to pitch Y2K, because I go like to head Y2K, France. Yeah. Since Y2K. Y2K. But my other one cool thing is, the talent of Mr. Ripley is one of my favorite films of all time. Craig, you were talking about what you should do, a deep dive on talent of Mr. Ripley. I also loved Netflix version made by the incredible Steve's Alien. The Simpsons did an episode called Simps-- Simpsley, which is the talent of Mr. Ripley, but with the Simpsons. Great. And so it's only available on Disney+. It's the 808th episode written by Cesar Bazarriegos, directed by Debbie Mayhan. The log line is, when a penniless, con artist, Marge Bouvieis is sent to Italy to convince wealthy sap to see more Skinner to come home, she's tempted by the trappings of his affluent lifestyle. But there's a big fat fly in the ointment. Skinner's clingy, dimwitted mouche of a house guest, Homer Simpson. Eyes, lust, and Italian lira are abound. It is. Of course, it's all black and white because the alien's version is black and white. It's just delightful. And you watch this, you wonder, who is this for? And it's for me, clearly. I'd love to see the Simpsons and love to see how to Mr. Ripley. Check it out. It's only on Disney+. This is-- the title was-- Simpsley. Simpsley. Simpsley. All right. That's coming up. I gotta watch that. That thing is fully-- there's all sorts of homages and remakes. And of course, Triass of Horror is doing this constantly. But when a thing is so thoroughly one thing and thoroughly it's other thing at the same time, it's just the best emphasis. It's the interesting way that they pick the great Cape Fear episode that they did. And they're not like-- It's 2026. So, this is what we're going to do. Yeah, this is about brilliant. So good. Will, do you have a one cool thing to recommend for us? I have so little time for cool things, but I-- because I have small kids and I'm writing a ton of-- we're also moving this week. But I did-- I did start reading Griffin Dunn's book. Oh, cool. So good. The Friday Afternoon Club. And it's very funny, really moving memoir about his remarkable career and family. And I'm just a huge Griffin Dunn fan. So I started reading that book last weekend and I am obsessed. Fantastic. The Friday Afternoon Club by Griffin Dunn. I'm going to write a memoir. Yeah. John, you'll come out great, don't worry. I'll show you how absolutely-- Craig, do you think you'll actually write the memoir? Or-- No. So hard. So hard. So hard. Why would I ever think that my life would be interesting to anyone? What would the book be called? Core shame, don't buy this by Craigslist. I know. I think there's a good stuff in there, but yeah, it's true. It's true, it's true. It's true. No one cares about me. You would have a fascinating autobiography, but what is your local thing? I know too many, too many secrets I can't tell, guys. I've been doing this thing for the past couple of years where I make a playlist every month for myself, just for myself. Great. Of songs I hear out in the world. It's like, new bands, people tell me about. And I've been kind of obsessed with this-- there's this new band. They're like a collective young-- there's young people from the UK. They're called World Peace DMT. And it's just like-- Right in this town. It's just, it feels like summer electric, fun, exciting, original. You want that to be the soundtrack of your life. Like that's the life you want to have. Is the soundtrack world peace DMT? Of course. They're just great. It's just like fun. And each of you hear young people making great music. There's a little bit. It almost feels a little bit like, hash and pit had a baby with the moldy peaches. It's just got a good history, but also something fresh. Yeah. Well, Craig, I think she's making up words. I don't recognize that. You don't know the other music. I know. I know Patrick. For sure. I know. I know Patrick. For sure. I know. I know. It should be a pitch pitch fit. Yeah, it's pitch fit. Yeah, pitch fit. Yeah. All right. That is our show for this week. "Scriveness is produced by Meredith Stedman and edited by Matthew Schlele. Our return is Lauren Loisberg. After this week comes from Makeup and Vanity Set. If you have an outro, you can send us a link to [email protected]. That's also the place that you can send questions that we often answer on the show. You'll find [email protected] along with the sign up for a weekly newsletter called Interesting, which does lots of links to things about writing. The script notes book is available wherever you buy books. You'll find clips, another helpful video on our YouTube. Just search for script notes and give us a follow. You'll find us on Instagram at script notes podcast. We have T-shirts at Hoodies and Drinkware. Those are all at Cotton Bureau, Drinkware. You will find the show notes with links to things we talked about today. In the email, you can each week as a premium subscriber. Thank you, bio premium subscribers. You're awesome. You'll get to hear us talk about projects that went away and how we say goodbye to projects that we miss. You can sign up and become a premium subscriber at script.net where you get all those backup episodes and bonus segments. Like the one we're about to record, we'll enter Shita an absolute pleasure having you on the show. Thank you. It was awesome. You could talk forever. It's such a joy to be here with you guys. Thank you so much. Thank you. [Music]