7 of 7: El Testigo (The Witness)

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Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? It makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it at Progressive.com Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary, not available in all states. >> This podcast contains conversations about violence, death, sexual assault, and includes explicit language. Please take care while listening. This is part seven of an underground investigation into the mysterious deaths of Chris Kramer's and the San Frune, two young women who died in the jungle of Panama in 2014. What happened to Chris and the San? Was it a hiking accident, a double murder, or something else altogether? I'm Maria Natanzio. In this series, I traveled to the small town of Boquete with Jeremy Crite from the Daily Beast to reinvestigate this case eight years later. After speaking with Margarita, the mother of the murdered Osman Valenzuela, we take a breath and re-evaluate where we are in our investigation. For the first time, we have a complete salient theory of the deaths of Chris and the San. What happened and who's involved, and it seems to account for all of the loose ends. Margarita says that Chris and the San were intercepted on their pianista hike by members of a local bandilla, a group of guys, specifically Tito, Edwin, Murgas and Cuervo. She says they were then brought back to Cuervo's house in Palo Alto, where they were assaulted and killed. Margarita's story seems more than convincing. It lines up with a disturbing pattern of femicide in the region, and it fits the evidence. We found a secret trail connecting the Mirador to Palo Alto, where Cuervo lives. That's how Chris and the San could have made it to Cuervo's house unseen. And we spotted a mango tree in Cuervo's yard, where Margarita says the women were buried. If the women were killed and dismembered in Palo Alto, and their murderers planted only a fraction of their remains in the jungle, that could explain why so few of their bones were recovered. And if Feliciano's son, Tito is involved, it makes sense that Feliciano is everywhere, because what Margarita's talking about is a cover-up. Margarita says not only did the pandilla murder these women, they also faked phone calls, staged the night photos, and then scattered select remains in the jungle, in an effort to throw investigators off the trail. Margarita can't be the only one in town who knows something about this. But who's going to talk to us? Who have told us they've been threatened? And what about Osmond, Murgas, the taxi driver? People have died. Is there a firsthand witness left alive who will speak with us? From Cast Media, this is Lost in Panama, an investigative series about the mysterious deaths of Chris Kramer's and the San Frone. I'm Mariana Pinsu, this is Episode 7, Elthestigo. And Jeremy and I dig deep in these after-show episodes. To listen to them, just go to castmedia.com/castplus. If Chris and the San were murdered, like Margarita told us, that means their murderers went to great lengths to make it look like a hiking accident. And the question we keep coming back to is, could this group of guys, this bandilla, have pulled off an elaborate cover up like this? We call Claire Ferguson, who is an expert in staged homicide at Australia's Queensland University of Technology to help us out. So I'm a forensic criminologist. Most of my research portfolios surrounds homicides that have been staged or concealed to look like another type of death. Claire explains the basics of staging a homicide. She says staging goes a step beyond just covering it up. They're not just obscuring what actually happened. They're trying to set investigators on a wild goose chase, basically. We ask Claire about the bandilla's possible manipulation of the phones and camera. She says, sure, it's very common for offenders to delete incriminating data from victim's devices. Crime scene staging 101 is deleting things from phones. Many offenders do that. They know that that's a sort of first port of call in terms of an investigation is going through a victim's phone in terms of like planting things on the phone. You would see offenders pretending to be the victim so that it obscures that timeline of when the person was last seen alive. That's exactly what we were told these guys did, deleted photos from the camera and then staged failed emergency calls over the course of three days to make it look like Chris and the Sam got lost in the jungle, but Claire says there's a problem. It has to do with the timing of the initial calls. So the last picture that we have on their camera is at about 1.54 pm and the first emergency call happens at 4.39 pm local time. Yeah. So that would make sense in an innocent scenario like an accident. That gives Chris and the Sam two or three hours to run into a problem in the jungle, try to fix it on their own and then call for help twice. One's from Chris's phone and then 12 minutes later from the Sam's. But in a homicide scenario, this timeline makes less sense. So if the thinking is that they're okay at five to two and then by 4.30, they're not. Two and a half three hours to abduct sexually assault, murder and start thinking clearly about cover up is not a lot of time. Claire's right. It's not a lot of time and it doesn't match the timeline. So according to Margarita, Chris and the Sam were intercepted on the trail and walked with the bandilla to Palo Alto, likely via the Patanemacho trail. But the Patanemacho takes at least three hours to traverse and that's if you're hoving it. Now that I think of it, no way were Chris and the Sam at Quedwell's house by 4.39 pm. So these emergency calls in all likelihood were made when Chris and the Sam were still in the jungle before a crime was even committed. Claire says, for a cover up to start before a murder even occurs, that's highly unusual. Staging typically happens after a crime has taken place. They've killed the victim. They're cooling down a little bit and they're now able to start thinking about, oh no, how do we create a scenario that isn't going to end with us being in prison. But the phone logs tell another story. Those calls were probably made before they got back to the house. That leaves really only two options. that Chris and the sand knew they were in trouble and somehow both independently managed to sneak off and try to call for help. The other possibility is premeditation that someone in the bandilla made the calls on purpose. So this would require some level of forethought in planning and it also means that from the jump they had bad intentions for Chris and the sand, right? Because on the trail already, they are manipulating. Pretending to make calls. Eight failed calls were logged over the course of three days. Faking those calls sounds doable actually. Back at Gwedebles, we lost reception about 100 yards from the house. That's not much of a hike. We were told that they have knowledge of the wilderness area and that they deliberately made the calls because they knew there was no signal as part of the staging process. But what about the night photos? Argarita says the night photos were taken by Edwin to throw investigators off track. But would Edwin have really spent three hours in the jungle, in the rain, taking 100 pictures of a bunch of rocks just to confuse police? Who does that? And what about photo 580? It sure looks like that's Chris's head in that photo. And let's just say it. It doesn't look like a picture of someone who suffered a severe beating and was then buried in a bag for a week, which is what Margarita says happened. The hair looks clean. There are no obvious signs of trauma. Did the bandilla really stage this photo of Chris after she'd perhaps been dead for days? Now, that's an incredible detail to think of if you're faking those pictures. That really is more yardish yet right there. But you could do it if you had her hair, which is just a terribly gruesome thought. But yeah. Claire says when a group of people commits a crime, they typically don't engage in this level of subterfuge. That is generally not the type of offender group that's going to bother with staging. What you commonly see in those cases would be just trying to hide the body completely and forever. That brings us to the scattered remains. And of course, the backpack discovered in fairly decent condition two months after the women disappeared. Claire finds it odd that the offenders would go to the trouble to plant this evidence two months after a hypothetical crime, assuming the bodies in the backpack had been successfully concealed up to that point. Unless they are being suspected and they know that they're being suspected, what benefit is there in moving the materials from a place they can protect to a place that they can't protect given that risk? So it's possible that bandilla did think they were being suspected. Maybe they got spooked by the investigation and decided to plant the evidence in the jungle. Still, Claire's not convinced that additional folks, like Iman Luis who discovered the backpack, would be roped into the conspiracy after the fact. That's just a lot of people in on one secret, Claire says. You wouldn't see a group of four people commit a crime and then recruit another two to also be involved in the staging or in like subterfuge. The more Claire pokes holes in the homicide theory, the more it gets me thinking, did these guys really think that far ahead? We're talking about premeditating a sophisticated cover-up before the actual crime was even committed. Think about it. If the bandilla stage these calls and photos, that means they were already preparing for the phones and camera to be found. Who thinks of something like that on the spot? Have you experienced cases where ordinary seeming perpetrators are able to pull off really complicated staging events? No, and I haven't seen any type of like advanced manipulation of electronic data like that. It's just not the type of thing that these offenders do. Hmm, so after talking with Claire, it's looking harder and harder to accept certain details of Margarita's story. Particularly how she says the bandilla staged the scene, the manipulation of the phones and the camera, the deliberate planting of the backpack and the remains, it just seems unlikely that this group of 20-something guys from the neighborhood would be criminal masterminds. But then again, how much thought does it really take to realize two tourists are going to be missed? And you might have to start creating a false trail. Sure, women go missing in the stretch of Panama all the time. But two young white European tourists? That was sure to call attention. Here's the thing. If Margarita's story is true, then the only people who know for certain what happened in that house are Edwin, Tito and Guedible. It's highly unlikely we'll get any intel out of these men. We've already met Edwin, the smart one, the ringleader, the Octopus. Who apparently knows where to find weed? We've heard Tito might be a violent drunk. I don't know that we want to get near him. I especially wouldn't want to run into him in a bar. And Guedible, well, it's his house. He was probably watching TV when Jeremy was sneaking around looking for a mango tree in his yard. That leaves one more potential eyewitness. Our last hope at figuring out what happened. The indigenous man who works for the Cuervo-Sarrison family also assisted with digging the grave, so it'd be nice to find that gentleman. It would be nice to find him. He's also the likelyest to come clean, for a few reasons. First off, there's a big difference between participating in a crime and helping to cover it up. He wasn't involved in the alleged sexual assault or murder, of course, on the sand, so he has less to fear by coming forward, especially if he felt threatened or pressured to participate as an employee of Guedible's family. It's likely he would be able to cut a deal and get protection. But first, we need to figure out who this guy is. Thanks for listening to Lost in Panama. We hope the story means as much to you as it does to us. We'd really appreciate it if you subscribed, rated, and reviewed us on Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you so much. Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average. Pop over to Progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit Progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. National average 12-month savings of $946 by new customer surveyed who's saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary. Support for this podcast comes from Progressive. America's number one motorcycle insurer. Did you know writers who switch and save with Progressive save nearly $200 per year? That's a whole new pair of writing gloves and more. Quote today. National average 12-month savings of $197 by new customer surveyed who's saved with Progressive between October 2024 and September 2025. We first ask our local guide if he knows anything about an Engabe Bugle man cleaning up the alleged crime scene. In true book at the fashion, he's heard rumors. His aunt told my sister in law what her nephew told her. Here's what he tells us. His sister in law told him. What she said was the following. A local lady man confessed to his aunt. He'd supposedly seen at the house where they had called him to clean. There was a table full of blood in it. They never told them what it was that it was nothing. The bags were closed and the table was full of blood in it. - That's it. That's all our guide knows. But he puts us onto another local who might know more about this mysterious witness. We head to his ranch to go talk to him. Our interview gets off to a rocky start. I'll tell you the truth when he comes to the Dutch girls. I don't want to talk about it. He doesn't want to talk about it. Because he says the bandilla has already killed plenty of people in town. - One of them was Osman. That guy, he was one of the good ones. And anytime there was a party he was there and that guy, they killed him. They hit him with a rock. The taxi driver, they drowned him. The last person they killed, who was a friend of theirs, they passed the car over him forward and backwards, forward and backwards many times. And hello and goodbye. He died and that was it. It was a guy they called Murges. - After some back and forth, he agrees to talk with us. And we assure him we'll disguise his identity in this interview. Ironically, he's not worried for his own safety. He's worried about the safety of his family. And what he would have to do if they were harmed. - I have a family. Let's say they killed one of my children or a grand children and I know it's one of them. I know myself, I would have to kill all of Henry's family. - Henry, that's Tito. - Henry is a friend of mine. Well, I know him, yes. He's a horrible person, he's crazy. He's a violent person. - He also knows Edwin. He's the minted, that guy he's riding. That man is damn, he's always on drugs. - We press him for a more complete list of who was involved in the deaths of Chris and the Sam. - Henry, the Savroson, a guy who is dark skinned and very tall, they call him Sam John. - He names Tito, Edwin and Sam John. But not Murgas and not Cesar Equitable. - No, Cesar, no, no, not that guy. But those other people I mentioned, yes. - So this is a slightly different cast of characters. But what he goes on to tell us, mostly matches when Margarita says that members of the bandilla abducted Chris and the Sam and murdered them with one big difference. - The location of the house where it happened. He says Chris and the Sam weren't killed at Quedible's house in Palo Alto. The crime went down at a property owned by, wait for it, Feliziano. - In one of the houses they have around here by Hadamillo, they had those girls, they supposedly killed the girls a second or a third day they had them. - We ask, is he sure this didn't happen in a house in Palo Alto? - No, that stuff about Palo Alto, no, that's a lie. Don't waste your time on that hypothesis, they were never in Palo Alto. Those women had nothing to do with Pata de Macho. Nothing. - This is a little frustrating. But a lot of the questions we had about Margarita's story, those actually make more sense with this alternate location. If Chris and the Sam were held in a house in the Culebra, near where Feliziano's farm is, that would explain how the remains got out there, and it's well out of cell service range, which means the women could have had their phones for days and made doomed calls for help on April 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. And the night photos were still not sure where they were taken, but they were deep in the jungle, probably closer to Feliziano's farm than Palo Alto. Is it possible that Margarita was mistaken about where this took place? Jeremy and I whisper about it during the interview. - The house, the other house thing is the one thing that doesn't go inside. - I know. But after that, history of what happened, matches Margaritas, almost exactly. - They say those guys were crazy over the girls. I imagine it was Henry because Henry is the craziest of them all, Henry and the Savroson. They killed one than the other and cut them into pieces. They say they had them in black bags, and after killing them to piece them up and put them in bags, only crazy people do that. - This matches Margarita's story, point for point. And then enter the mysterious witness who Margarita told us was called to clean up the mess. - When the indigenous man enters, he sees blood all over the floor, and when he sees blood, he asks, "This is from a hunt, from where, where's the meat?" All of a sudden, he sees the bag and he opens it, and that's when he finds the head of one of the girls. When he does that, obviously, he's shocked. Henry tells him, "If you talk, we'll kill you too." - We ask how he knows this, who told him? Well, he says the Angabe-Bugle man first told his sister. - He comes to his sister scared, and he tells his sister what happened. He tells his sister that they were gonna kill him if he said anything, but his sister didn't keep it on the wraps. She told some of her colleagues. - And from there, it's spread. That's how he found out. - And he knows more. He says the Angabe-Bugle man still lives nearby, in the jungle near Alto Romero. And if we can get to him, he's our best shot at cracking this case. - He's the only person that can open this damal. - I'm more than ready to go talk to this guy. But how do we get to him? - Look, the only way you're gonna get information out of this guy is to do something like a kidnapping. You have to extract him, get him out of there. Assure him nothing will happen to him, and what's more incentivize him to give him a deal or something like that, so he helps out. - So who can we send to go get him? - People like me would have to go there and take him out of there. I could go there and bring him. But can you imagine the problems I'm gonna buy myself by doing that? - Get another local, he says. So we head to the house of a local Angabe-Bugle guide, Balvino Samudio, who knows that part of the Culebra and might know where to find our witness. Balvino is a well-liked person in his community. Contagiously, Jolly often wears a cowboy hat and has a strong stature with a round belly. Not to mention, he's a talented horse rider. - Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Turns out, Balvino knows exactly who we're talking about. This mysterious Angabe-Bugle man. In fact, he helped track him down once before. He says that back in 2014, he was a guide for the Panamanian Justice Department. - You were a guide for the Justice Department, and can you tell us what happened? - The head of the Justice Department. - Sent Balvino with two agents. - To interrogate (beep) - They found him near Feliciano's farm. - What happened when they tried to talk with (beep) - In the moment that was the interview, - Feliciano Gonzalez. - Feliciano Gonzalez showed up during the interrogation. - He was very angry. But I'm at first he thought they were just real. regular citizens, and his temper was on full display. But then he saw their badges, and he toned it down a little bit. What did he actually say? [SPEAKING SPANISH] Why are you asking about this case when this case is closed? Is what Feliciano said to the agents? [SPEAKING SPANISH] He wanted to cut short the interview with the interrogation with [BLEEP] And it sounds like Feliciano was successful. He ended the interview and ordered the agents off his property. [SPEAKING SPANISH] He's a very smart man. [SPEAKING SPANISH] OK, I can't exactly say he's dangerous, but there's something about him. [SPEAKING SPANISH] He thinks [BLEEP] knows something Feliciano doesn't want him to talk. [SPEAKING SPANISH] Says there's no such thing as the perfect crime and that we should continue to investigate until we find out the truth. [SPEAKING SPANISH] This and Gabi Bughleman knows something. Something Feliciano doesn't want to get out. And both Margarita and our anonymous source have said this man witnessed the crime scene. It feels like we're getting very close. I find the murder scenario much more compelling than I did two weeks ago. I mean, I feel like we have much more specific information that is maybe a better way to say it. It's a great Spanish saying. [SPEAKING SPANISH] The river makes sounds and noises. It's because there's rocks underneath moving up along. So yeah, what would be the English equivalent to that? Probably where there's smoke, there's fire. There's fire. Yes. Our guide agrees to go out on horseback to find our witness. Before he leaves for the jungle, we craft the letter, explaining that the government can protect him if he talks, that he won't be convicted if he gives testimony about the alleged crime. Then we wait. It could take days for our guide to find him and report back. Meanwhile, our meeting with Balbino means we need to double back on something else. It sounds like the Justice Department already tried to interview this witness back in 2014. We need to find out what the authorities know about this guy and what else they might know about this case. We're only able to secure an interview with a detective from the Chris and the Sand case if we don't reveal his name. So we won't, and we have altered his voice as well. So I have one year before I retire, and obviously I'm putting my whole career at risk. I'm not here for you. I'm here for them because I want justice for them because I have daughters. I live here, and it's hard to hear this over and over and have your hands tied. To not be able to do anything. We tell him, we've heard rumors that Chris and the Sand were seen with a group of guys from around town, maybe at a house in the Guleura or in Palo Alto. Does he remember anything from the investigation that might corroborate that? What he says, shocks us. The community knows about this information that the Dutch girls were at a party in the area of Palo Alto in a house, a cabin in a precarious condition. A cabin, well, not a nice one. And that at the cabin, there was consumption of alcohol and consumption of drugs. Are we hearing this correctly? The police knew about this party in 2014. This detective, who was working on the case at the time, says an informant approached police with details about the party. Who was there and what went down? Certain things got out of hand for the people who were at the party with the Dutch girls, the missing girls. And certain things happened which resulted in deaths. Sex, drugs, music. That's the information that was circulating around. We ask him, who was there? Yes, names were mentioned such as Sabro Song, Sam John, Murgas, the son of Feliciano, who is a tour guide. And he was even the same tour guide who was going to take the Dutch girls to the places they agreed on. He just named the same guys. The same bandija we've heard about from several others at this point. The same guys we've been investigating all along. This isn't just neighborhood gossip. This isn't a grieving mother offering a possible motive for the murder of her son. This is a cop, a police officer who worked on this in a very case, corroborating significant elements of the story. He says, it should all be in the report. The investigator and another person prepare the report and submitted it to the public ministry. They mentioned these names. These names mentioned places, mentioned dates, mentioned events of how the party actually took place. So a full report, a report naming Edwin, Sam John, Murgas and Tito as partying with the Dutch women in Palo Alto was submitted to the prosecutor's office. Wow. So there should be an official record that matches what Margarita and our anonymous sources have told us about Chris and the Sam partying with the bandilla. But here's the thing. We've scoured the 3,000 page case file for this report and it isn't there. How could this be? We asked the cop what could have happened to it. He says when the report was submitted, it was obvious the prosecutor's office wasn't super happy about it. They were unsatisfied with the report because it went against the main line of investigation. Well, what happened to it? That's a good question. It would be interesting to investigate if that report was incorporated into a larger file. I haven't had access to the report. It's with the prosecutor in charge. Where on earth is this report? It's a report that names the potential suspects and places them in a house in Palo Alto with Chris and the Sam. The same house where the women may have died. But the detective says the prosecutor's office never pursued this line of investigation. Panamanian authorities officially closed the case about a year after Chris and the Sam went missing. Accidental death, dragged by the river, case closed. No mention of these guys. It's like it never happened. But something did happen. Margarita Son Osman was murdered. A police report was filed and now it's missing. And this in Gabi Bucleman in the culera, the one who works for Quero's family, who knows what he saw? If we could produce this witness, if we could find this report, if we could put Margarita on the stand, would that be enough to reopen the investigation? Let's look at this like an investigator, like lawyers, like a prosecutor. I want to prove these people killed the Dutch girls. Number one, I'd bring this woman as a protected witness. Why do you think they killed your son? Because he was involved in this, this and this? Number two, the information, Murgas gave her. Murgas confessed to me before he died, this, this, and this. However, if I have to be honest, if I go in front of a judge with that witness, the judge will tell me it's not enough to condemn this person. So we're left in the air. That's where we need a firsthand eyewitness. You know, the same man our guide, who is out on horseback is trying to locate and bring back to confess. He's the domino that can bring the rest of this case down. If we bring in the local indigenous man to interview and he says, "Yes, I was paid to clean the house on such and such day at such and such place," and so on, I saw there was blood. After all this time, scientific tests can still be applied, like Luminon, to determine if there is human blood. No matter how much they cleaned, this can be determined even if years have passed. After we leave the detective, we debrief. We're stunned that he knows has always known about this party, which may have led to Chris and the Sandstaffs. The police officer's testimony is identical to you, Osmond's mother's point for point, Pelo, Pelo, as you would say. The entire hair on my neck stood up because so many things coincided. It was the fact that the girls were taken to this house. In Palo Alto. The fact that there was drugs involved, the fact that there was sex. Feliciano's son is a suspect. While we wait for our guide to return from the Gulebra, we look through the case file one more time for the missing police report about this party. We find nothing, but when we scan the case file for the names of the bandilla members, we do find something else. In October of 2014, six months after Chris and the Sandland missing, an anonymous informant told the cops that none other than Jose Manuel Murgas might have important intel about the case. Murgas, the same guy who confessed to Margarita that he was complicit in the murder of her son. So the cops followed up. They interviewed Murgas. Murgas didn't confess to being present for anyone's murder. Osmond's or Chris and the Sands were to ever have met Chris and the Sand. But he did cast suspicion on the bandilla, specifically Tito. He said a group of guys in town, Tito, Edwin and Sam John might have something to do with their deaths. Here's an excerpt from the report summarizing the interview with Murgas. He added that at the time the girls disappeared, Henry told him what the problem was, that they were lost and he was the last one to see them. According to the interview, he did not see Henry in the area until about six days later. And when he asked him where he had been, Henry told him that he had gone to his father's farm in Gulebra to go for a walk. And when he asked him where he went in that walk, Henry changed his subject. At the very end of the report, seemingly apropos of nothing, the anonymous informant who ratted out Murgas gives a detailed description of a car. It's the car he says Edwin has been seen driving around town in. A double cabin, red pickup truck with shiny silver rims and tinted windows. And that's it. Nothing more about this report was ever followed up on. This is in fact the only appearance of Murgas in the case file before he died in that mysterious hidden run in March of 2015. We can't wait to hear from our guide who's gone off on horseback in search of our potential eyewitness. And after a few days go by, he arrives back in Boquete with the report. Our guide says, after traveling by car, by horse and by foot, he finally found him our witness in the Culebra. I look for what we call a ranch where they have a restaurant. There, I found the owner and I asked him about it. Since I knew him, I asked him where he was and he told me that he was in town. From there, our guide located the witness, explained our investigation and showed him our letter promising protection. Our guide says the witness immediately looked uncomfortable. He got really passive. He asked me if I wanted to know just to know, or if I was working with you guys. And he didn't want to talk to me, facing me. Sometimes when I speak to people, I don't face them very much or show them my face either, but he almost always didn't show me his face. He talked to me, but always looking away. But our guide was able to convince the witness to come to Boquete and tell us his story. Because our witness was planning to be in Boquete in a few days anyway. He told me that he was busy at the farm, but he had to go to Boquete in a couple of days. He said he'd come to the interview in Boquete. He said if he covered his expenses, he would come without any problems. When our guide tells us this, we're elated. We schedule a meeting right away with the local DA's office ready to present our witness and ask them to reopen the case. Only then, on the day of our appointment with the DA, our witness doesn't show. Our guide frantically texts the witness. Maybe he's been delayed coming in or needs directions to meet up with us. But when they finally get in touch, our witness has a flimsy excuse. I asked him why he hadn't come to Boquete and he said that he had come, but that according to him, he had forgotten he had to interview. Honestly, I don't believe that he could have forgotten after texting him and all that and asking him if he was coming or not. To me, it's like he was afraid to talk. Our guide says he's not surprised our witness is backed out. We're asking people to risk everything, even their lives to speak with us. Our witness may have decided it wasn't worth it. If he is involved, he could lose his job, all of his trust of a lifetime and that would be very disastrous. I think is afraid for his life and afraid of prison in case he's known something for so long, it has not said anything. I think if he knows something, he isn't going to say anything. Look, I get why he doesn't want to talk to us. But this whole runaround makes me believe that he does know something. That something terrible happened to Chris on the sand. If he doesn't know anything, why not just say that? Why agree to this interview and then ghost us? He's the only person who can confirm or deny these rumors. He's our last hope at cracking this case and he won't talk. At least not now and not to us. On a witness, we go through with our meeting at the DA's office anyway. When we get there, we learn that Panama has a new top prosecutor. But most of the other staff investigators were working out of this office when they ruled Chris on the sand's deaths and accident. So what are we supposed to do? Breeze in without evidence and demand they reopen the case? Tell them they did an incomplete investigation? Lacking an eyewitness, there's not much we can say to convince them. They will laugh us out of the office, which is pretty much exactly what they do. With our clean-up witness refusing to speak to us, we give it a final shot. Bet say that beaty. She was the top prosecutor when Chris on the sand went missing. The highest ranking official with the final word on this case. She would know what happened to the missing report. I mean, she could be the reason the report is missing. But maybe not. We just want to know what happened. We try several times to contact her, but she declines to be interviewed. Well, sort of. She says she'd be happy to speak to us if she's compensated. No one else we spoke to for this podcast was compensated for an interview. And many people came forward at great personal risk, out of a desire to get justice for Chris on the sand. But I guess that wasn't enough motivation for Bet say, though. Either she doesn't care, or maybe she's got something to hide. I guess there's no way of knowing. We're nearing the end of our reporting trip in Bouqueti. We've been here for weeks and talk with dozens of people and gone way over budget on our trip. But I still feel so far away from knowing for sure what happened to Chris on the sand. It's possible it was an accident that Chris on the sand went beyond the meetout on April 1st and got off trail for some reason. They tried to call emergency services, but never regained cell reception. Search teams who never searched the jungle beyond the trail never found them. They eventually succumbed to the elements and their remains were scattered, probably by animals all along the Rio Culebra. But if that's what happened, how did Chris's one ribbone get bleached? How did missing photo 509 get deleted? And why didn't the women leave any sort of note? Why did so many young men die mysteriously after Chris and the sand disappeared? And why are so many people in bulk it they convinced this was a murder? It's also possible Chris and the sand were assaulted and murdered. In terms of homicide, just like so many other women in the region. It's possible a group of guys, a bandilla intercepted them the day of their pianista hike and killed them. It could be the same group of guys witnesses saw with Chris and the sand at a discotheque, at a party in the park. But if it was murder, it was also an elaborate cover-up. Hedged photos, feigned cell phone news, and the remains and backpack deliberately planted along the Rio Culebra. Is it really possible that this group of guys staged the perfect crime? Even after investigating all these theories of what may have occurred, we really don't know what actually happened to Chris and the sand. So that's where we are. Lots of rumors around town, but nothing solid. A missing police report that was never filed, in a potential witness who won't speak to us. Without a witness, we're pretty much out of luck reopening this case. We're not even sure what we believe. On one of our last days in Boquete, Jeremy walks into a bar, hoping to meet with a source. And who should he see, drinking alone, but Henry Tito Gonzalez himself? We've been afraid to meet this guy, who is at the center of so much gossip, so many theories, but then he just appears. Jeremy sits down next to him and starts up a conversation. Tito, who is fairly well-liquored up, proves to be everything we've heard about him in town. He rudely mocks the bartender. He tells Jeremy about the best places in Boquete to pick up young girls. And then Tito starts bragging about using his fists for violence. Saying that with his left hand, he puts his victims in the hospital. And with his right hand, he puts them in the graveyard. This from the same man who may have beat Chris to death with his bare hands for resisting his sexual assault. Jeremy makes plans to meet Tito the next night for an evening on the town, hoping this will give him more time to prepare his approach. And before Jeremy has the chance, Tito stops responding to our text messages and fails to show the next night. So we never have a chance to ask him about his involvement with Chris and the Sam. We pack our things. Tito's in the wind, a free man, maybe an innocent man, maybe a guilty man, maybe something in between, what happened to Chris and the Sam is still a mystery. But this case is just one of dozens, even hundreds of unsolved disappearances and deaths of women and girls in this part of Panama. And it's not just Panama. Femissite is rampant in Latin America. Out of the 25 worst countries in the world for Femissite, 14 of them are found in this region. Chris and the Sam were two European women, white women. Their story needs to be told and their case needs to be solved. But what about the women of color who regularly go missing here? Like Stephanie Rodriguez, the 35-year-old woman who was murdered by her neighbor just days before we arrived. After the 19-year-old who went missing that same week, or Tamara Carpentero, who also disappeared from that same area, she was found murdered 24 hours later. Tamara was 13. She was pregnant. Who seeks justice for these victims? I hope that this story, this podcast, this investigation can help bring attention to the larger problem of Femissite in this part of the world. Someone in this town knows something about what happened to Chris and the Sam. If you're listening, please come forward. Por favor, si saben algo, either lean. For Chris and the Sam, for what get there, for the women who go missing in Latin America every single day, we won't stop until we know what happened. Until then, these mountains hold a lot of secrets. Lost in Panama is hosted by me Mariana Tensu, with original reporting by Jeremy Crite and Mariana Tensu, Chief Investigative Correspondent Jeremy Crite, written by Jeremy Crite and Trent K. Maverick, produced by Trent K. Maverick, executive producers Colin Thompson, Julian Favre, and Jeremy Crite, supervising producer DJ Lubel, co-producer Mona Hassan, associate producer Lenora Quinyones, translator Lenora Quinyones, editing by Stephen Perez, Anton Dori and Alex Gonzales, mixing and mastering by Matt Soule. Voice actors Cristiana Cevedo, Cesar Castillo, Mateo Maya, and Robert Sosa. Travel in logistics coordinator Brooke MacArthur, onsite audio recording by Richard Garlos, onsite photography by Luis Iga Garza, original music written by Colin Thompson, orchestration arrangement and additional compositions by Andrew Gurleger and Jesse Haujin, music recorded at the Resort Studios, music engineered by Caleb Morris, assistant engineer Jordan Dironado, instrumentalists Matt Orvas, Phil Glenn, Laura Bedal, Jennifer Wu, Jean Paul Barzone, Sam Solorsano, Jesse Haujin and Trevor Gomez, additional music from Blue Dot Sessions and APM, cover art by Paula Hentchis, special assistants by Elizabeth Muñoz, Martín Eduardo Ferrarau Donel, Pamela Soledad Adaro, Mayr Alejandra Madrid Rodríguez, Antonio Kiros, Balbino Samudio, Max Derles Rovira and Admet Villarreal, very special thanks to Susan Razabka. [Music] [Music] The next big moment is waiting. at Bet Online. 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