#7 - Anthony Remensnyder - Why true Christian ambition starts—and ends—with radical dependence

God never called us to self-confidence. - How did you develop that relationship in such a deep way? - I've had seasons that I would call stewardship seasons. And seasons that have been more what I call man-a-seasons. John 6, 19, am I seeing what my father's doing? Am I creating space to experience that? It's like, oh, that's heresy or hertic. - What are some ways you've seen God work in a supernatural way? - There's a couple stories that come to mind. I had a dream one night. Welcome to the Christian Ambition Podcast. Today I'm joined by Anthony Remensnider. We connected via LinkedIn. When Anthony and I first spoke, what stood out immediately was his emphasis on surrender, obedience and taking scripture seriously in every area of life, including business. Anthony has experience in corporate leadership, ministry and missions. And in central question is simple, but challenging. What does it look like to fully submit our work, our ambition and our decision making to Christ? He has a passion for launching Christian businesses in unreached places and equipping churches and mission organizations on how you surrender businesses to God. As we'll find out, you come from a different background, the most of my listeners, and you bring a different perspective on things. And I trust this will be a powerful and encouraging conversation. Please, Anthony, give me a little bit more of your background and what you are currently doing and then we'll go into more of your story. - Yeah, well, hey, thank you so much for having me. It's definitely an honor to be here and be with brother and Christ and just to share what God's up to. So you hit the nail on the head. That was awesome. I'm Anthony Remensnider. My focus is really being able to equip people and what I believe is God's design for how to operate in business and then ultimately make disciples, bring salvation through business amongst unreached places here in America and ultimately wherever the Lord leads. I currently lead a nonprofit that I recently founded with a team called River Ventures and our heart posture is to both serve using a curriculum to launch businesses in really a harder to reach places more impoverished places in the world and those who are lacking the gospel or gospel density. And then we also help launch small scale venture ecosystems to equip mission, organization and churches with the curriculum as well. And the curriculum really is over the last decade of lived experience of both myself and friends and brothers and sisters in Christ of what we believe is part of God's design for how Christians should operate in business with the premise of surrendering to Jesus in business abiding with him as it says in John 15 and obeying what he's telling us to do. And then the for-profit side, I partner with founders and executive teams and really use the curriculum as the baseline to help those teams get aligned to scale without chaos to get further clarity and to really follow God and what he's doing in business. - That's wonderful. Could we go into your testimony and kind of your backstory? - Yeah, absolutely. So I was saved at the age of 19 when I was in college and if I back up a little bit to give some pretext to that story, I was raised with amazing parents. I was raised Catholic and just within the context of Catholicism that I was raised, there wasn't a lot of experiential, I'd say encounters that I had with the Lord. It was very liturgical, word-based, very, hey, you follow this religious system and God allows you in the heaven one day. So I describe on my best days I was agnostic and on my worst days I was atheist. I grew up and I was a good kids. My parents provided an amazing life for our family. But growing up, I loved soccer. I lived, breathed, ate soccer. I played it all the time. And starting at the age of 11, I had a few different concussions. So age 11, I had my first concussion. And after that experience happened, I started to really struggle with anxiety, which led to depression, which spiraled even further as I got through middle school and high school. Then I had a greater series of concussions and that really led to these seasons in these moments where I'd be really depressed and feel really stuck mentally and I couldn't snap out of it. My parents are really, really supportive, but we couldn't figure out how to solve what was going on. So you fast-forward, I got into Georgia Tech and ended up going to college there. And my first year in college, after living, as a good kid, didn't really get into trouble, got good grades. I loved the soccer aspect of my life. When I went to college, I went crazy. I went off the deep end partying, doing everything that you could imagine and probably things you couldn't imagine. And that left me completely broken. And the pattern of anxiety and depression really started to go deeper into suicidal ideation. For years and years, I would go through this pattern. And my sophomore year, I had hit a point where none of the alcohol I was drinking or the substances I was using or how I was feeding different addictions in different ways, especially with people that I was dating or engaged with romantically. None of that was fulfilling me. And I just ended up more and more young. No. So finally I hit this breaking point where I actually hit this point where I was like, "Man, I'm done with this. "I'm done living this way." And God, you have one shot. You show up where I'm actually gonna end my life this time. And I found myself for two weeks after praying that prayer, crying. And I hadn't cried for the previous eight years. I was just completely numb to everything. I had no vision for my life. I had no idea what I was gonna do. And if I was gonna live, I couldn't see myself having a family 'cause I had no hope. And a dear friend of mine randomly dragged me in a church one Sunday night, two weeks after I prayed that prayer when I was this close to just ending everything. He dragged me into a church and I'd never been to a non-catholic church. But I was like, "Why not? "I've got nothing to lose. "I pray this prayer." And I walked in and it was Grace Midtown Church in Atlanta, Georgia. And Pat Barrett was playing "Goo-Good Father" on my guitar. Before Pat and House Fire as a blew up, before Pat became a household name, before "Goo-Good Father" hit the worldwide scene. It was just the song that they played in this little church in a rougher part of Atlanta. And he started playing that song. And it was the first time on my life I ever felt peace. Immediately in that moment when I started hearing that song and started hearing the lyrics, every, it's like time slowed down for a second. And there was this slide show playing in my mind. And it was like I was looking through a kaleidoscope. Then I saw every hard moment that I'd ever experienced in my life, the moments where I wanted to drive my car into a tree, the moments when I was crying up to God in the middle of the night asking him for some sign that I had purpose and was supposed to be here. And it was like 20 or 30 scenes. And that all happened in a moment, but I felt like I was watching this slide show for 10 minutes. I saw where Jesus was in every moment. And my body felt this electricity course through it. And I felt this peace I'd never experienced in my entire life. And all in that moment, I prayed some prayer that said, "I want all of this." So that's how I accepted Jesus as my learned savior. And everything changed in that moment. I experienced peace. And I was like, man, there's something so much more real than I've ever experienced with this Jesus. I want all of it. And that just started me on this wild journey for over the last decade of walking with God. So that's a little bit of my, I'd say, salvation story. - Right. And so where did you go from there? How did you graduate and then? - Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so that was sophomore year of college. And shortly after that, I just started to experience the things of God that you read about in Acts, the early church. You look at how the apostles experience once Jesus sent the Holy Spirit down to them. And they saw signs, wonders and miracles. And I'd say that's a big part of my story. And it's nothing that I created myself. I call it, hey, this is the natural grace and gifting of God on my life. And those who I walked with in that season's lives. And we saw amazing things happen. We saw people healed who had new odds to be healed, medically verified events. Torn MCL's one day, you lay hands, you proull them. Two days later, you get at completely clear MRIs as if nothing happened. And I started to see things like that happen all the time through just me simply praying and feeling like I was being obedient to how the Holy Spirit was leading me. Eventually, that happened for a while and I'd still never read the Bible. And I tried to party as hard as I did prior 'cause those things kind of freaked me out 'cause I didn't have a grade for it. But when I would try to party again, I felt this conviction. Now I know it's the Holy Spirit, but then I was like, I feel like this is wrong. Morally, I knew it was wrong because of how I was raised, but I was like, there's something in that saying, don't do this. In that same time period before I even read the Bible. There's a sermon at our church and they talked that they talked about how God had a Calling and a purpose for your life and I remember going home from that sermon And I'm like I'm gonna try this so I took out a pen and a journal and I was like God. I believe you speak today That's that's what I'm experiencing today not just in your written word, but I feel like you speak to me So like what's my calling? What's my purpose? And I wrote down this very simple diagram It was like a triangle and it said faith It's a business and it said Education and media or something like that. I was like man I feel like I'm called to the intersection of these things and kind of the utter Undergirding feeling was business is the main thing I was going to school for a business. I graduated with an operations and supply chain management Concentration at the business school at Georgia Tech and I was like business is the backbone everything business is what actually Informed government and informs entertainment, you know, it informs everything I was like that that feels like what I'm supposed to do But I want to do that for God. I don't want to just fund moves with God. I want to use business to spread the gospel And I was just so enthused with this idea And then I started the journey of spiritual formation I started reading my Bible and I was like, oh, I finally understand that these things happen that I get to experience some today I learned about inner healing and deliverance and how you know once I was saved There's a lot that broke off of me But there were still things that I had to renounce and get freed from from all the bondage that I was in and I believe God completely healed my anxiety and depression. I've had several moments over the last decade where You know, it was like a moment where once I was in anxiety and it's like I woke up one day and I haven't experienced it again So it's there's been this beautiful journey both Interformation spiritual formation growing and learning God's word and his truth and then Learning how to listen to his spirit and obey him. So that led me to graduate Georgia Tech and I joined a big fortune 2530 company and you know that experience was incredible There was a lot of grace and favor and the first couple of roles that I had out of college I shouldn't have been doing what I was doing with the title that I had no 22 or 23 I should have been doing the type of stuff that I had was doing leading large scale initiatives and Transformation and a multi-billion dollar context and I can only say that is a hundred percent the Lord and the path He took me on but within those experiences He was teaching me this system what I call You know the world system for doing business which I believe is completely counter to God's way of doing business And he taught me to be in the system but function Like he calls Christians to function in business. So I would do things like and he what he taught me was before I would try to Solve a massive strategic problem. I'd feel this whisper in my heart come come sit with me I'd lock myself in in white boardrooms and I would just pray and I would get these like downloads in my mind and my spirit Of how he wanted me to solve the problem now go present the solutions and people would look at me like at a hardware business Executive MBA education. No, how'd you come up with this you just gradually call it and I'm like I I just pray to my father and it became a place of witness and testimony and we started to roll out the initiatives that I was that I would pitch to them And we'd be profitable and we grew a revenue and all along and this started to happen over the course of my journey over the last decade And God would bring me into different systems or different companies whether it was big corporate America or Working in nonprofit in the inner city at a church or in the startup realm accelerating up and coming tech companies or back at corporate America or at series a series B startups God took me out has taken me on his journey the last decade of teaching me how to do business his way so I don't just talk about it I've experienced it and then there can be a authority of how I how I try to equip the body of Christ to do it And I'd say how that has kind of led me to this season of life is you know I believe that the doing business God's way Using that phrasing Should look very similar to how Jesus operated with God John 6 19 says Jesus only did what he saw the father doing John 15 says Remain in me as I remain in you abide in me as I abide in you and you know when I see the pattern of scripture with Jesus He truly he would he would do the Simon under miracle He would feed the 5,000 and then he would retreat and pray all night And you hear what God was saying to him and then go back out and do that And I think in our modern day business it's very black and white to me what what God's heart is now when you hit execution and gets harder God's hard my mind is Surrender every aspect of your day and your business to me Sit with me hear my voice. Let me illuminate scripture give you pictures or give you a vision And then I want you to obey that with me as you love me And I think so often today we rely on wisdom and I don't think that's a bad thing They look always proverbs is a starting point and try to layer that onto the world systems But my conviction is as Christians what if we started in the place of full surrender Abiding in Jesus and let that inform what scriptures we rely on what operating systems we introduce and let God have the first word Just like we see in my opinion modeled in scripture Not even my opinion. That's what Jesus modeled scripture. Sorry. Check that Yeah, so that's my story my journey and I'd say what kind of led me on the path to today Beautiful. Yeah, so Kind of what you're saying is we shouldn't necessarily try to plan everything out and then at the end Just you know pray to God. Oh, you know if you're well blessed this you're saying we should really start with praying to God and Be steeped and in his word and in that relationship so that whatever comes out of that is from God from the beginning So start start with God not with Wisdom or our knowledge of what we're trying to do 100% I would say yeah, I mean, I think you hit the nail in the head It's hey if we start in our own strength or even with good principles We arrive at at a finish line and we say God would you bless our work? I don't see that I don't see that modeled in scripture from Jesus or the apostles What I see modeled is hey, I'm gonna start with you in prayer with your word illuminate the path your word is like a lamp Into my feet and not just his written word the spirit illuminates his written word today, right? So it's my conviction and I've seen Amazing testimonies from this and fruit from this and I've experienced it and seen it you know when we start in that place of prayer I think what what we can get confused by is it doesn't look like How the world operates in business? God could say I just want you to sit in prayer for five days and on the sixth day Bring the one client that's gonna pay your bills for the next year or You could have sat there grinded built LinkedIn campaigns done a bunch of funnels and by that six day You could have no clients and be completely exhausted So it is it's starting with God. What do you want me to do? What do you say? What do you want me to know? And when we when we walk in that place What I found is the amount of peace that surpasses all understanding that comes is Is something that's unmatched and what I found is he's led me to places. I would have never imagined I'd go From walking in that posture now am I saying I get this right all of the time? No Like I'm learning this as I talk about it this week I'm repenting for trying to put the heavy yoke on my shoulder of trying to make moves happen in my business or force things through and I'll put it this way last week I was sitting there early in the morning my son was doing a puzzle my son's five And he was doing a puzzle and you know you got 30 pieces sitting there 40 pieces sitting there and he turns around and he looks at me. He's like hey dad I see the picture. I don't know how to get started. I'm like oh, I got you buddy Like let's put the pieces together and as he started to do it He started to get more and more confident and I just was so convicted by this picture Because if I think about it in a business context typically If you're an entrepreneur even if you're a leader in the business and you're like hey I have my 2026 strategy. Here's a strategic point You have the vision you know the numbers you have to hit or what you have to accomplish and typically You know getting started we might as Christians be like god help me and then you just start working And what I found and in my experiences I think the way the lords led me is I've been more like my son when I start where I'm like God I see the picture but help me put the first couple pieces But what happens is that as I start putting the pieces together I get more and more confident That I can just figure it out myself without asking god and what I found is You know we I don't think confidence and self-confidence is bad But I'm a believer that what was started by the spirit should finish by the spirit and there's biblical context for this There's a lot of verses about this and I'm a believer that man if we stay in a mode of dependence and seeking god Every step along the way even if we think we know That he just throws in the most beautiful surprises along the journey And Sometimes we say hey, I'm confident. I know how to finish this picture But god never called us to self-confidence. He called us to complete dependence John 15 abide in the vine right so So that's just something that I've been learning and trying to walk out day to day and to your point start with God. And to me, it's not enough just to start with God. Let's try to finish with it too. Because you might think you'd have to finish the picture. But one of these light now, we're going to level this up 10X. Yeah. And if you listen to me, I'm going to do that for you. You know? Yeah. I love that perspective. And that's our first meeting. I was like, this is a different perspective than I hear a lot of times. Being really with a true, deep relationship. I think a lot of times the way I've approached things is like, yes, I need a relationship with God. And that is for my personal life. And yes, it's also important for my business life. But the business side of things I need to really be learning business tactics and good strategies on that side and really try to use the abilities God's given me, develop them, use them well, and through that God will be glorified. But I think it probably is a little backwards kind of like you were saying, you know? It could be, I tried to just grind this out and really, you know, be sending those emails and everything. And maybe I do get that client. And my attitude towards that will probably be like, I kind of earned this because I did all those actions instead of this is a gift from God. And I think that that is an important mindset shift that a lot more Christian business people should enter into. So I really do appreciate that. When you're working in the corporate world sitting in prayer and I think you use the words like a download from God, it sounds kind of like like Joseph and how he would pray first and then everything that he did was blessed by the Lord. Yeah. And that's really cool. And it's like, I don't know why I shouldn't expect that. Like, why do I feel that that is an Old Testament thing? Like, yes, yes, I should always pray, you know, pray before I eat and pray before I do things. But that's kind of the extent of it. Yeah. Yeah. How did you develop that relationship in such a deep way? It's a great question. I love your connection to Joseph with that because I think that's like a really great picture of what it is. You know, I, how did I, how did I develop that relationship with Jesus? So, for me, I would say it is the grace of God that this is my relationship with Jesus. After I was saved, I think my experience is just the wild, miraculous experiences that I had. It taught me that very early on that I can't do this apart from Jesus. And if I hear the Holy Spirit as the one instructing me in the way in which I should go, then I might as well do this more and spend more time in prayer. Because if this is going to be the fruit of it, and at that point, I didn't do it for all the right reasons. Like, I definitely started seeing all these wild things happen. And I was like, oh, I want more of this. So I'm just going to like spend time with Jesus. So I get more. And in God's grace and His mercy, He purifies that desire. Now that journey of purification, there's a long, like multiple wildernesses in that journey. I'm still on that journey. I don't think you ever graduate from the purification of your heart. If you pray the prayer, God, give me clean hands and a pure heart. Oh, He will. And you'll go through plenty of wildernesses and plenty of trials. But that's the formation journey becoming like Jesus. Yeah. And that path of sanctification is probably the word in my world. That's the words we would use. "Saintification." It's not until we reach heaven where we're glorified. "Glorification." While we're on earth, it's a slow progress of sanctification. There's those ups and downs. So yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's exactly it. So for me, it was God's grace that, like, right after I was saved, I just yearned to spend time with Him. But there's definitely been seasons where I haven't done that. And those seasons felt really dry to me. And I wasn't hearing Him clearly. And I was probably meandering often to some pasture that I shouldn't have been in. So what I've seen is, I mean, in Jeremiah 29, Jeremiah 29, 11 through 13, or like before I was saved, that's the only Bible verse I knew. I've been in a good place, a good place, a prosper, you're not to harm you. But I think, then 14, it says, "If you seek me, you'll find me if you seek me with all of your heart." And for me, that's the foundational verse for everything we're talking about right now. It's, I've found that there's a direct correlation to the amount of time I spent seeking Him in prayer, in fasting. Being obedient to that, He speaks. But I think for a long time I sought Him so He would speak. And I'm currently learning just to seek Him because He loves me and I love Him. What I found is the more time I just spent loving Him in prayer, like He, I don't even get a lot in prayer. But what I found is as I'm in the, as I'm going, doing business, I just start getting on clear convictions, clearly led by peace or not, clear like, envisions or thoughts of what I need to do. Because I'm becoming more like Him as I behold His image in prayer, if that makes sense. What does, I think was in your LinkedIn, I read, we're never called to build and we kind of spoke a lot this before, but I think it's important to go talk about it. So what do you mean by that? Yeah. So, you know, going back to John 15, Jesus calls us to abide in bare fruit. And Psalm 127, one, unless the Lord builds the house, the laborers, build and bane. And, you know, there's biblical figures near my builds a wall, some then builds the temple. But, and the new testament, Jesus looks at Peter and says, on this rock, I will build my church. I will build my church on the rock. Peter is calling Peter a rock. It's amazing. So, you know, as I sit with those verses and I meditate on them and I wrestle with them in prayer, I've kind of come to this consensus and it really comes back to yearning to have a heart posture of humility and all things. I say that, not saying I live up to that in any stretch of the imagination every day, I'm asking the Lord, Lord, please lead me in a deeper humility. Because Jesus didn't come to be served, but to serve. And the way that I think about we're never called to build, but to bare fruit is indirect relation to humility. If I'm saying I'm building something, I'm actually posture myself in the place where Jesus told Peter, I will build my church. Peter was a vessel in a conduit, Jesus used to build his church, but Peter operated under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus sent after he ascended. And all Peter was an open vessel. He was a full open river for the Holy Spirit to flow through and do what he wanted to do. So for me, you know, we still use like we're going to build this business or build this strategy. Like I don't think there's necessarily inherent vanity in that, but for me, it's a deeper look. Like what's your heart posture? And I ask myself that all the time, what's my heart posture? Am I building this? I'd rather use the term I'm abiding and bearing the fruit that God is leading me to there and He's building this thing. Because for me, it puts me in the chair of obedience, submission, surrender and humility of I can do nothing apart from you, which is what it says in John 15. Right. Words do matter in your perspective, shift on things. It does. That's provoking. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You're like, when I say I'm going to do this so I can build this business. I haven't mentioned God. It's because I'm like, Christian, I'm like assuming like, you know, this I found that this is, you know, my talent that God gave me. So therefore, this is God's will, maybe. And so, but actually positioning it in a trying to just rephrase it. So I completely understand it. I'm abiding with Him and through His leading in my life, He's going to bear these things fruit. Yeah. Like we're going to bear He says you will bear fruit in John 15 abiding me and you will bear much fruit. So for me, it's like my job is to bear fruit. But here's the funny thing. Well, if you research farming or agriculture, you can't force plants to bear fruit. They bear fruit to the extent that they're receiving nutrients from the vine. So literally our only job. If you like sum up the new testament philosophy of how we how we produce anything, to me, to the extent that we are in full submission, the obedience to God is the extent that we are abiding in him. So that fruit is being produced or bearing fruit and God is building something. You know, the last thing I'll say on that is they're the verses that say Jesus brings up the example of people coming to Him when they're entering into heaven or about to enter into heaven and they say Jesus. Jesus didn't we cast out demons in your name? Didn't we do all these things? Didn't we build all these businesses in your name? And Jesus has depart from me, I never knew you. And that scripture for me brings a sobriety with this whole concept of, there's a lot we can do for God, but did He ever ask us to do anything for Him? Jesus, the universe runs through Jesus. Jesus is the center of it all, as the old Him in song says, right? So if that's the case, who am I to build anything for the creator of the universe? I'd rather just partner with the creator of the universe, abiding Him and have His fruit bear through my life and let Him build everything. Nothing practically, it comes down as semantics, probably more with build, but for me it's way more about the heart posture. Are you surrendered in abiding and being obedient? Because you gotta use the word build at times when you're talking and on Christians, so when you're like, bear fruit, you do your crazy, like we can't do that. So I think it's way more about the heart. And it's almost like I use that language, not to be inherently provocative, but just to get people to think differently about what we're doing with Christians and business. Yeah. So where am I having really large goals and written out goals and resolutions or just like having ambition in business? How does that fit in? 'Cause I could imagine it would be easy to just be almost laid back in a sense and like, well, I mean, I guess God is not giving me the fruit right now. Oh well, I'm not, I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing, but like if you looked at and be like, hey, why don't you actually send more emails? Maybe that's, it's a hard thing. And so you don't want to do it. So you're like, oh, maybe God's not telling me to do this. So how do you still be ambitious and push yourself? Yeah. But still maintain that perspective. It's a really good question. So I'll share like a couple of journeys that I've had. I've had seasons that I would call stewardship seasons where I have the vision, the Lord lays out more of the plan than not and I'm called to walk in that plan and steward it well, more carc. I've had seasons that have been more what I call mana seasons where I see this big banner vision. I have no idea how I'm gonna get there. It's the season I'm in right now. I call that a mana season because provision is showing up in different ways, but it's from nothing I think I'm doing. It's from literally just being like, I'm gonna be obedient to what I feel like he's asking me to do. And in these seasons, what I found is, there's the Bible verse, his word is like a lamp and some of my feet, a lamp. Think about a lamp, a lamp. You have to walk carefully and slowly because the biblical lamp in that song is literally a lit candle. And if you walk too fast, the candles are gonna go out and the light's gonna be gone. It only illuminates what's around you. I come back to this premise. We're literally, I think God in a hilarious way in the English language and every language for that matter, we're called human beings. We're not called human doings. There's a difference why we're called human beings versus human doings. If we're not being first, it goes back to what we just talked about. How am I ever gonna be doing the thing with him versus for him? I think that distinction is so, so important. So when I think about resolutions and big vision and big goals, Jesus knew what his destiny was. He knew what he was put on this earth to do. I think God wants to release vision and destiny over every believer. Every believer should have a North Star of, this is who I was created as, and this is what I was created to be. I think every single person, especially Gen Zers who are struggling with this, God wants to speak that to Gen Z. That has been my journey. That has been my friend's journeys. He has a plan of purpose, Jeremiah 29, 11, 313, and he will show you. Now, here's the danger. You receive the purpose and you try to figure out how to manufacture your way to achieve that purpose. So for me, what I found between these mana seasons, these provision seasons, what I would also say is the mana seasons are more like, I don't know, the path is gonna unveil before me, and in the provision seasons, I kinda see the vision. I think it's a seasonal reality. I question if my season is the same for 25 years straight. I question if I'm actually being obedient to God. 'Cause actually, and so, typically, the Lord John 15, there's an Ecclesiastes, there's a season for everything under the sun. So, there's some seasons that, you know, my posture, actually in every season, my posture never changes. I start in prayer. I try to start in prayer. But there's some seasons where he's like, here, I'm gonna give you these goals. I want you to do these things this year, or I want this to be accomplished in your business. And there's other seasons where he's like, I'm gonna open doors, no man can open, and shut doors, no man can shut. And your job is to sit with me and follow my leading against all common wisdom, or even wisdom that a lot of Christians would give you. I just need you to trust me and follow my spirit. So, I'd say there's not a one size fits all in, so I think it's a seasonal reality, and it's on us, to pray, seek him first, and I'll show up, he added unto us, he'll tell us what goals we need. He'll tell us if we need resolutions. Typically, my wife and I, what we do is most, starts a year's business personal life, we ask for words for the year. And we found that every single year we've done that, the year literally is a comp, those words come to pass, but it usually has nothing to do with what we thought it would at the start of the year, 'cause we put our own interpretation or spin on it. So for me, when I think about ambition within this, you know, I think about, one, and my John 6.19, and my seeing what my father's doing, my creating space to experience that, and then my prayer is Lord, make my ambition, your ambition. Like that's what I want, and if you're asking me to do things, I let everything flow from that versus, you know, putting my stake in the ground and saying, come along this journey. Honestly, my question for myself is always is, who am I to tell the God to you in a verse that? - Yeah, right, no, that's really cool. - Thanks, man. - So how, so some, no doubt some people might be worried about prosperity gospel. - Yeah. - So especially, you know, we've heard of people like Joel Olstein and Benny Hinn or other really big people, where there's a lot of these healings, and they say they're verified, but they're not, they're actually fake and whatnot, and how, and you know, a lot of us have not experienced what you said you have. How can we, I don't know, I guess, tell the difference, and how are you protecting yourself from, you know, 'cause I don't know exactly how to phrase the question. I hope you understand what I'm trying to get at. - Yeah, I know we're going, I can just jump in, you know, for me, I am, here's what I've found. I think within, like some of the ministries that you mentioned, I mean, praise God for a lot of these preachers who have pioneered a lot of different, I'd say, aspects of our faith, and I think there's some amazing aspects of it, and then I think there's some aspects of it, just like with all of us that are human aspects that we just, you know, I think rightfully so, we can be like, huh, discerning about what may have happened or may not have happened. And I think for my journey with the Lord and all of us and even, I mean, a lot of the body, like you said, hasn't necessarily experienced these things. Here's what I would say, is, you know, I started experiencing these things after I got saved. And then once I started reading the Bible several, several months later and started to read specifically in Acts, I started in really first Corinthians 12 through 14, where it talks about love and the spiritual gifts. I started to reconcile in my heart this, this kind of demand almost of the Lord, it was this arrogant demand of, hey, if this happened in the Bible, I wanna see it. Like prove to me that not to you are. And what I would tell people is just like Paul says, I'm not here to preach with wiser eloquent words, but with the power of the Holy Spirit. And my answer any single time, I have a conversation about this with people who may have never experienced this. And that's completely fine 'cause it isn't like, this is way more apparent in Africa in places where the spiritual realm is really active. It's not that active in the West, it's getting more active. But what I always encourage people is, hey, don't take my word for it. I believe there's power and testimony, so I'm called to share the testimony. But if people don't believe it, they haven't experienced it. I just always encourage people, take God at His word. And if you are open to it, ask Him to show you. And in His timing, He will. But it's not up to me to convince people of what's true, what's not true of my experiences or correct or not correct. That's the words job. And that might be an answer denying responsibility, but I really am convicted by those words of Paul where it's, I'm not here to convince you. I'm not here to convince anybody, right? I'm not used to specifically, I know we're having a conversation. But it's really up to somebody who is hungry for that and the Holy Spirit leaves. them and them having experienced it for themselves. So that's because you know, I get asked that a lot. It's like, oh, that's heresy or heretic. Like, where's the show me the medical evidence, whatever. And you know, my answer is always like, hey, like first I pray that there's not a hardness of heart with this stuff. And if there isn't, and you actually have hunger, go and ask God. Like, my experience has always been, it might not be the timing I want. But when I ask God something show me this, I think every single time I pray that prayer, whether it was the day later or years later, it's, it's come to pass and it's coming to pass. So does that answer Connie or thought kind of question? Yeah, you know, because I think of it like, when I, when I pray like, you know, Lord, you know, show me more of yourself. I think, especially because of the culture I've grown up in. And I look at that as, you know, when I read the word, you know, help me to grow in a relationship with you. I am not asking, you know, show me in a way that the apostles experience to you. And so if I'm not asking that, then why would the Lord give that to me? So that does make sense to me. If you don't ask, he's not going to give you know, there's a Bible verse for that. Ask him, you shall receive and ask anything according to my will. And I will and it will be done for you. And I'm like, so that for me, I'm like, take God as at his word. Like, that's my favorite, like, have a child like faith. That's my encouragement to everybody. It's like, yeah, call me, call me a heretic. Like, that stuff, I'm like, bless you, you know, like, and obviously not you personally, but I'm like, bless you. Like, I can only name my experience. And I would be, I think I would be slandering the glory of God if I weren't to be completely honest about my experience. But in that same way, for me, it's like, I just invite people and like, take God at its word. And if it is his will, it will be done for you because he promises that, you know, so. Right. Right. First jump. I've this talk more about God's design for business. And especially with your, you said venture ecosystems plant in hard places. What, what does that look like? What are, what are, what is a venture ecosystem? So great question. So venture ecosystem on my mind is, hey, as Christians, I believe that we not only have solutions to the world's problems, but especially as believers, Matthew 28's, our mandate, go make disciples of all nations. Now that's a mandate for every Christian. Do I encourage every Christian to be like, okay, I'm going to go make disciples. Let me go to the map. I'm going to go to Iran right now. No, like that is not my, my, how would I encourage anybody to take on the command in Matthew 28? My encouragement would be ask God, how's the Holy Spirit leading? Where do you feel peace? What's your community speaking into? What's the conviction you have? How do you hear the Holy Spirit speaking? So when I say venture ecosystems, for me, it is, I believe it is on God's agenda in today's day and age. And I think it's going to continue the next couple of decades, probably until Jesus returns that God wants to use the mechanism of business to not just produce wealth to send more missionaries. He wants to use business to be solutions to problems, to reinvent the world's systems and to make disciples and bring more people into the kingdom. So there's so many purposes the Lord has for business. So with these venture ecosystems and our nonprofit, we've really been led of the Lord to our best ability of going into harder places where the teams on the ground, the churches on the ground have this sense, feels like God is asking us to start businesses for His glory. And we don't know where to start. We don't know what to do. So, prayerfully, been connected to a couple different movements in the Middle East and Africa where God is stirring this there locally. There's divine connection to bring me and the teams that I partner with with a bunch of mentors and coaches. Those who have discipled me over the years as well, this isn't just me. I've just, I've got a couple loaves and a couple fish. I'm a brick investor just like everybody else. But we go into these places and we help those local teams discern what is God asking you to do. And if he's asking you to start businesses, okay, let's do it. So we help equip those entrepreneurs and the leaders of those ecosystems on how to surrender the process to God, how to listen to His Spirit, how to obey His Spirit, abide with Him and then grow businesses that way. And that's really the premise of what these venture ecosystems are and we try to have them be as Spirit-led as possible. There's a lot of good work we can do, but is it God's best work? It's always in the question. There's a lot of good places we can go with our natural mind, with wisdom. But there's some places God's been calling us to, where one place in particular, where not a lot of people are going right now and it's hard to plant churches there. So God has been opening the door to start businesses. And it's just really neat to see what happens when we start in that place of prayer and what God can actually do. And so how do you take the world's wisdom in a way? The world's system. You said you learned in the corporate world a lot of that. And how do you then take that and apply it, but with an eternal perspective? It's really good. So, you know, I think about the way Jesus shared parables in the New Testament. Jesus met those who didn't follow him where they were at. Whether it was him teaching a parable that related to them in that day and age, whether he healed somebody or cast a demon out of somebody who is in crisis and then said, go and sin no more and follow me. You know, Jesus met the world where they were at and he discipled them into following him the way of Jesus. So that's really, I'd say, you know, where I serve, it's twofold. I'm called to serve those who don't know Jesus and disciple them into this way of operating. And I'm also called to serve the body of Christ and to continue to help lead and grow and stir the desires of their heart to walk in the fullness and the purity of what the Spirit invites us into every day. So I think it's a twofold, it's a twofold approach. I believe the operating system for operating in kingdom business as a Christian, I think about it this way. I've been guilty of this as well as a Christian. I'm like, man, I'm going to do it. I know how to do in business. And I'm going to layer in some biblical principles to what I'm doing. Some good Bible verses, some good practices. And I'm going to have this mixture of like world systems, some Bible verses and we're going to crush it. And over the years, I felt this heavy conviction of, hey Anthony, as a Christian, I'm calling you to start in a different place. And what that's kind of manifested into is as a Christian, I believe, we should start in that place of John 6, 19. That's what we've talked about. I need to see what the Father is doing. I need to abide with Jesus. And then let the Holy Spirit lead me into everything I should do. Just because you think it's good to install the certain operating system in your business, doesn't mean that that's what God is asking you to do. So I think as believers, that's our mandate. It isn't just having this mixture of worldly systems and some biblical principles and call it a kingdom business. I would venture as far to say is that's what the Bible calls a lukewarm. I would say, hey, if we're walking out this gospel, which is way more black and white than it is gray, the biblical principles that Jesus lays out are very black and white. You know, we're the ones who take them very gray. If we actually take them out as word, then full surrender is the ask in full abiding. Not to the point we made earlier, sanctification. We're all on a journey. And there's grace for what we don't know. But it also says in James 4, that if you don't do what you know you should do, it's sin for you. There's like normal, there's sins that we all do. But I believe that there's certain areas where we grow in sanctification that maybe the way we talk to our spouse or our business partner or somebody else, you might not think is rude. But there's a conviction where it's like, I know I'm not supposed to do that. We move from not sinning to learning how to not give into inequities. And I think there's a distinction. This gets in a whole doctrinal theological discussion. But I just believe that, you know, God leads us to a place of revelation. It says pray for wisdom and revelation. He leads us to a price of revelation of his word where we can't go back to the way we've operated. And once we've tasted the black and white, the purity of what could be of sitting in prayer, doing what he's asking us to do and seeing fruit from it, while we ever try to go back to the old way we did things. So that's that's how I kind of conceptualize, you know, kingdom business. And what I feel like the invitation is really for the next generation, for Gen Z, for Gen Alpha, and for those who have ears to hear in the body of Christ. I don't know. Like a lot of people I don't think and feel like they can just like hear the Lord speak almost so directly. So I don't have what has maybe a little more specifically what has your experience in hearing the the spirit. Yeah. What does that look like for you? I think that's an incredible question and I think that is one of the foundational principles of everything I've been talking about. You know, it's easy, we can't read the Bible. If we can read, we can read the Bible. So it's easy, it's like the words illuminated there, but I would take it this way. If we read the Bible and we don't do it, it asks us to do in the New Testament. I think it says this somewhere in James, it's like one of us who looks in a mirror and walks away and immediately we forget what we look like. - Yeah. - And I think we can read the word. And it's just like I talked about earlier, not like ask the Lord, show me that. Like it says in John, "My sheep shall hear my voice." That's like a literal statement from Jesus. Okay, I know I'm a sheep, I'm saved, and I should hear your voice. And I think it just comes down to like, depending on what stream we all come from, what that actually means. Some streams, voice means, hey, this is the word of God. The literal word of God. Charismatic stream say, "No God speaks to you." And there's a lot of streams that are like, it's both word and spirit. I think that's the key. God asks us to worship and spirit and in truth. And I think when we see the convergence of spirit and truth, and we simply ask the Lord, and we say, "Hey, you said I'm gonna hear your voice." Like I want to hear your voice. And we pray that prayer earnestly. It's Jeremiah 29, I think it's 12 or 13. It's the Seek Me with all your heart, and you will find Me. And 1 Corinthians 12 through 14 has like a very great paradigm for this. It says, "Everly desire the spiritual gifts." Now, we think about the spiritual gifts. We can think about like all the miracle stuff, but for me, like part of that is, hey God, I'm gonna take you at your word because part of the desire of the spiritual gifts is being able to hear his voice. And it says, you know, in 1 Corinthians 14, it says, "Early desire the spiritual gifts, but like the one that you should desire the most is prophecy." That can be really mystical. Everyone can be called heretics. When you say that, like all that gets very interesting depending on the stream that you're in, but to me, it's very simple. Prophecy is hearing God's heart. Like that's what it is. It's hearing God's heart for others, and it's hearing God's heart for you. And prophecy manifests in a way where you hear on behalf of somebody else, you're like, "Hey, I feel like this is gonna happen to you." Or like, I feel like God has this plan for you. It's an encouragement for the body. It's meant to build people up. Prophecy is simply meant to build people up. But where that manifests in our lives is it's hearing God's voice for ourselves. I'm always a believer of like, I don't wanna get another prophetic word from anybody if I'm not first hearing from God. Because it should be, I should be hearing it from the Lord and it should be confirmation of what God is telling me versus being directionally aligned to what people are telling me to do, which I don't think God's intent. Jesus only did what he heard the father saying to him and what he was doing, right? So I think this is a long way of answering, but I wanna just set some context and bring some scriptures and just like, "Hey, if you wanna hear God's voice, ask him." Like it's that simple for me. And I've seen time and time again in people's lives when they say, "Lord, I believe you speak." I wanna hear a voice, not just through the word. It give me a picture, give me a vision, give me phrases in my mind, illuminate scripture to me that feels alive. It's less mystical than it sounds 'cause we all have imaginations. We all have dreams. We all have all these things. It's just like switching the perspective of like, God speaks through those things. And here, the last thing I'll leave you with on this topic is it's like a muscle. It's like a muscle that's being flexed. So to the extent that we try to listen and try to walk in what we feel like you're saying is to the extent and the clarity that comes as we walk it out. So as we try to practice it, we grow in it. - Yeah. - So make some. - That does. Again, like if I don't expect God to, I don't know, use a dream to direct me. Then obviously it won't because even if there is a dream, I'm just gonna discount it as just a dream like any other dream. But if I really am seeking the Lord in that way, who might have said, no, God won't do that because he doesn't do that anymore. And I like how you said, I don't want to be prophesied to unless if I'm already being spoken to by God, right? - Yeah. - It's because I think a lot of times when we think like, oh, people say they have a vision and have all this stuff and it seems mystical. And if that's why you're doing things, then maybe that's a little flimsy. You should start first. I think the biggest lesson right here is start with that really deep relationship, that personal relationship with God yourself and then go from there. It's something I'm gonna have to keep thinking about. So yeah, what are some of those ways you've seen God work in a supernatural way? - Well, here's one more thing I love to say on that and I don't think you can conclude here. But I think it's this one thing I keep coming to mind is unless we're operating with hearing God's voice with scripture as our compass and as the bounds in which that we are discerning it through. If we're not doing that, we can be led astray super quickly. So it's so important to test, says scripture says, test every word of prophecy. Don't hold it in contempt, just test it against his word. And if we're testing it against his word, then it is so critical to do that because there aren't, once you start tapping into this whole like the spirit realm, I mean, it can get interesting really fast. And it's just really, it's important that you hold the word of God, it's spirit, it's a word in the spirit. And you test every word you receive from people and every word that I hear from the Lord, I'm like, is this his nature? Is this actually, I think it's his voice. I've learned how to hear his voice, but I'm gonna test it against scripture. Like if it's encouraging, if it's loving, if it's, you know, if it incises the spirit. So that's just something that I wanted to add that's really important. - The scripture is the basis, that's the rock. That is the truth that God's given us. If we are thinking something, but a contradict scripture, then obviously that thought is not God's. - Yeah, if God's like, hey, go gamble $200 million. So you make $200 gigile and it's like, - Yeah. - And you tell me that that was God's voice. I'd be like, hey brother, love you, go read your Bible again. (laughs) Oh my God. So that's where, that's where the charismatic in me really, I'd say I'm more of like a Baptist costume. Like is it in the word, I love the word of God. I'm like, is it in the word of God, but also like word of God, God speaks to. Like let's do both, you know? So it's a dance and you learn it as you go. - Yeah. - So to your question on like supernatural encounters, yeah, I mean, I would say, there's a couple stories that come to mind and I'll just be open with you and you pick what you wanna share. I know, like I won't be offended if there are things that you're like, I wanna share this. I'll just be open about it. - Yeah, yeah. - So this was many years ago, I was in Cuba and I had a dream one night. And in the dream, somebody had died on the street in front of me. And in the dream, I heard God's voice say, go pray for that person. I prayed for the person when they came back to life, they were resurrected in the dream. And I remember waking up from that dream, saying, oh Lord, this is a, that was a dream with you. Like I know you gave me that dream and that's a crazy dream. And when I woke up, there was this phrase that went through my head. And the phrase was something like, I've activated you, like in that way. 'Cause I got really weird, okay. So I walk out into the place that I'm saying in Cuba. It's my last morning in heaven. I will before I fly home and I'm eating breakfast and I walk out of the Airbnb. I turn to the right on the street. We're staying in a rougher part of Havana. And I see this man crouched out of her in a, in like an abandoned warehouse. And I immediately feel this conviction go talk to him. And I speak Spanish. So I walked up to him and I look at him. And I don't know if he had a cane or something, but I looked at his eyes and they were completely fogged over. And I looked at him and I felt this like sense, like ask him if he can see. So I asked him if he could see and he said, no, I've been blind for 25 years. And he lived in that area. And he was wearing this cross necklace and I had this overwhelming urge. I felt like the Lord invited me pray for him. So I was like, hey, I don't mean this to come across as insensitive, but kind of just pray for your eyesight. Like take in the Lord, I'm taking you at your word. He says yes. So I lay hands on him. Just like when you read in the scripture and Jesus like puts dirt in somebody's eyes, I didn't do that, but I was like, let me just lay hands on you. So I lay hands on his head and his eyes. I said Jesus restore his sight. And it was the craziest moment where his eyes were closed. He opened his eyes and I literally saw the fog in his eyes completely dissipate and he just started to weep and shrink and just freak out. Like I haven't seen in 25 years like all in Spanish. And I'm sitting there like blowing my eyes out. Like what just happened right now? Like I don't understand this. I don't have a grid for this. Like I've seen miracles before, especially when I prayed for people, but I've never seen blind eyes open. And that was the first time I'd ever experienced that. And you know, Jesus says, you will cast out demons and raise the dead and lepers will be cleansed and blind eyes will open and deaf ears will open. Like he says that and Isaiah commands the apostles to do that. And this was a season where I was really like, God, I wanna see these things. So that's a story which really interesting this past year in a business context. So we did this four day conference in Uganda for about 700 people, or 700 pastors, 200 business people from eight East African countries. There were bishops, pastors and business people in this conference. And on the fourth day, I was with the team. There are four or five of us. And we, the leader of our team, he's a spiritual father of mine, felt the Lord say, hey, you're gonna pray for every single person here. Which is for 900 people, that's a lot. So we formed this line outside. We were in the bush outside of two, three hours outside of Kampala, north of Mucono in Uganda. And we spent a couple hours laying hands on every single person. And you know, I got 20, 30 people into the line and I'm just praying and we're getting these amazing encouragement from people. That only the spirit could give us. Like, like four knowledge. Like, hey, I feel like you're a writer and somebody's like, the Lord told me to write a book and like, had these sweet moments with the Lord where prophecy and words of knowledge were flowing. And I wasn't thinking about praying for healing or anything. So I got to this lady and she was probably in her 60s or 70s. And I felt this phrase in my head, she has a lot of back pain. So I just asked her, I'm just taking a risk. I think that was the Lord. I'm exhausted day four. Wasn't holding my food down all week. I was just exhausted. We were going home that night. I'm like, I'm ready to get home kind of thing. And she looks at me. And she goes, yes, my back. But I, I, I'm like, basically blind. I can't see. She goes, I can't see. And I look at her eyes and I was immediately reminded to the guy in Cuba. Her eyes were completely fogged over. So I start to pray over her. And the moment I start to prove her, because I was like, okay, let's just see what God can do. She starts to shake, like really, really shake, like manifesting something. And I had this moment where like in my mind's eye, I saw two fingers holding her eyes. And I saw this like outline of like a demonic figure. And I realized in that moment, I was like, oh, this, she's not just blind from an illness. Like there's a demon holding her eyes. So she started to shake. And I was just like, Lord, I like really healing. And I say like spirit of infirmity to leave her. And she starts to shake more and more. So then I just start like worshiping. Because I'm like, I don't, this is, this is wild. And praying, praying in the spirit. And everyone around me starts to pray over her. And all in the moment, once I switched how I was praying to just like worshiping Jesus and praying in the spirit, her body went limp, her head went down. And then her head came back up, the cloudiness dissipated. Tears started going down her eyes. And she just starts screaming, I can see, I can see. And it was, it was this amazing moment where we're at a business conference and God did that. So it happened the next couple of moments. There was another guy. So it was like Jesus, when you read people bringing Jesus the sick people, I was like, OK, so literally some of the bishops then grabbed this other guy who was blinded when I. And same thing, I was clouded over. There wasn't like this demonic thing that he got delivered of. But I laid hands on him and the cloudiness completely disappeared. And he said that his eyesight came back. And there was a deaf person that literally couldn't hear laid hands on her. And we tested it from like 50 feet away. And she could hear. So these weren't, I would say, what I would say, medically verified. These are moments where we literally physically saw like cloudiness dissipate. And their visor reactions were just unreal. And we felt the presence of God. And those happened in business contexts. So yeah, I'd say those are a couple of the stories of, as we've gone on some of these trips and done some of these business, curculum teachings and launching different businesses. God's just shown up in really supernatural ways time and time again. Thank you for sharing those. I appreciate that. And done. Thanks for asking, because I know it's like not a normal day to day for a lot of Christians, which like, I completely understand. Like I get it. And it can be very challenging and all of that. But for me, again, my encouragement always is like, hey, ask God. If you're supposed to experience it, ask God. So-- Yeah. And I believe it's very believer because that's what the word says. But it's to the extent that we're hungry for it. I believe it is to the extent that we'll experience it. Yeah. No. It's like, why? Yeah. No, there's-- Yeah. Because I can't say that-- No, this didn't happen. Why would I say that, although then unbelief, in a way? Why wouldn't God still be working in the way he did in Jesus' time? Who am I to say he won't? It hasn't. And so-- I love that perspective. That's a humility. Yeah. And like you said, I haven't been praying to see those things. So again, why would I be? So this has been great. I really love how you recall the scripture. And it's clear that the way you think has been formed directly from scripture. And that's something I want. I believe everyone should really see that and be like, I want to be more like that to really have the scripture just coming out of my mouth in the middle of my thoughts. And to really seek for that deep and personal relationship and ask more of God, God is so great. And if we're not asking for great things from Him, that's on us, not on God, in a way. So it's been truly encouraging. And a different perspective, for sure. And I think it's good to see different perspectives. And no doubt there are plus and negatives to each position. I haven't had enough, not had enough lived experience to really discern those. I'm sure there are pitfalls. There are pitfalls in every position. But again, if your heart is to seek the truth and seek it from the Word and from God, He will make your past straight. - Yeah. - He will protect you from false action. He will correct that because if you're his child, he wants, he will show himself to you and will guide you. He promises that. - Yeah, if we seek him, I mean, we seek him. He'll do everything he promised. And I would put it this way, as I think you just put it beautifully, we're all part of the body. But every part of the body has a different function. The head functions different from the fingers than the toes. Now, do you think this finger understands what your big right toe, I'm like pointing to right now, and do you think your, this finger understands what your big right toe is doing? Now, because this finger literally is focused on this fingers function and that toes focus on its, it's toes function. So I think for me, my heart within the body of Christ is like loving Reformation. And not even Reformation of like, I'm trying to fix what you're doing or change your theology. It is, hey, if I can deposit what I'm doing in my part of the body and it encourages you, and you're part of the body and vice versa, like we're part of the same body. My toe doesn't look at my finger saying, "You're a hair, it's like you're crazy, you don't know what you're doing." You know? Like we're all stumbling forward in this journey of sanctification, trying to become more like Jesus. And just because we're part of the same body doesn't mean that we always have to understand whatever part of the body is doing. Now, I do believe in correcting false doctrine. And I think this spirit gives us discernment on what false doctrine is and what it isn't, right? So I think we absolutely, in the scripture, you use this guidelines on how to confront that. But I think if there is an openness and there isn't that flag in our spirit as we discern in community, then encouraging each other as parts of the body, honoring the places we are on the body and spurring each other on in good deeds. I mean, that's what we're called to do is the New Testament church to become pure and blameless until the return of Jesus, which is the ultimate. That's the ultimate goal. - Yeah. No, beautiful. - Yeah, man. - In closing, what's a favorite book outside of the Bible that has really helped you develop your perspective? - Yeah, I am. I'm not gonna give a book about growing in spiritual gifts or prayer. There is a book that has completely, I would say, and it's a book that I read more recent times, but it's giving me a paradigm for probably everything I've talked about today. Not so much in business, but in spiritual formation, which is what I really, I mean, that's the crux of what I care about business. to be called prepared. paired for significance by Gregory as well, which can be found on Amazon. But Greg's actually, here's my pastor for the last several years. And he just gives this paradigm and an allegory of our walk with Jesus being one of us being a horse and God being Jesus being this king that leads us on this journey of sanctification. And it's this paradigm and this metaphor of talking about how our journey and a horses journey, what those look like in terms of spiritual formation. And I just puts it, I just butchered the way I explain it, but it's a beautiful allegory of walking in spiritual formation and continuing in our calling in God. And you know, as you get closer to walking in purity with God and walking in closeness with Jesus, you probably look more and more crazy to the world at times you look more and more crazy to Christians. But that's some could say that about the apostles and the greatest heroes of our faith, Martin Luther, you know, all these different figures. So yeah, that book, it's not well known. It's more well known in the circles I'm in, but that book has been pivotal for me. Well, thank you so much Anthony. It's been great. And I hope this will help some of our listeners just think in a in a different way. So that's episode seven 1000 to go. Thanks for having me. Bus you guys.