#69 Tamara

pushkin jackie they're happy to um respond to my birthday wishes i'm just looking at my text um okay that's right you sent me a text on i don't know who doesn't say thank you i find that just weird or just send like a little a little heart icon like who says nothing it's just weird son well i was very busy partying no you weren't no you mean no i wasn't i know you weren't how do you know you hate your birthday you hate partying you're depressed that's why okay first of all okay i i was partying yes i was yeah look just accept i was partying wow from pushkin industries i'm jonathan goldstein and this is heavyweight today's episode tamra right after the break this is an iheart podcast guaranteed human this is jacob goldstein from business history when the internet arrived most people used it to look things up others saw what it could really do the same is true with chat gpt chat gpt work goes beyond answering questions give it a goal plus things like notes files feedback data or project plans and it can help create a brief analysis deck outline tracker or workflow you stay in control reviewing the work and choosing the final result put chat gpt to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects get started at chat gpt.com by selecting work mode available on plus and pro plans if you love music and great artist interviews check out before the moment hosted by nile rogers this new series follows nile as he travels across the country talking with some of today's most fascinating artists about the moments that shape their lives and careers from hit makers like miguel to rising stars like alex warren nile explores the story of music and art and the stories behind the careers the songs and the moments that changed everything because every musician remembers the point where everything changed and this podcast tells the stories that came before it listen to before the moment a lincoln original series on the iheart radio app youtube or wherever you get your podcasts let's talk 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this gatorade it's lemon lime but it's uh diluted and that's in case my son tries to drink it he won't want it tamra's son is 10 years old that's the same age as my age tamra was when her family joined an evangelical church she remembers how the whole family all went down to the bay to get baptized in the water and accept jesus into their hearts when it came time for high school tamra's parents sent her to a christian boarding school and this is where she met b she was just somebody who's kind of like sparkly i kind of felt like she was the anti me like i just felt i'm nerdy and a little bit too shy with me and i just felt like i was the anti me with people and so i actually had plans to room with somebody else but i like b so much that at the last minute i changed my mind so b and i could room together junior year i'm from canada and i don't so there's freshman year freshman sophomore junior senior you stay three years in school and then you're still a junior yeah your third year is a junior and then all of a sudden you make the leap to senior yeah i don't get it okay hang on a second wouldn't it make more sense to go from freshman to junior at any rate during grade 11 tamra and b progressed from friends to roommates this meant spending a lot more time together i mean your roommates like your person b was like my spouse and their dorm room became a social hub for all their friends b was probably friends with more of like the cooler popular kids but i think between the two of us we probably knew everyone in the school you know i was kind of one of the smart kids you were one of the smart kids yeah sorry i didn't mean to say that incredulously i was just i was talking over you i know hard to believe jonathan no no no it's not hard to believe at all once tamra had put aside her smart people books and all their friends had left for the night it was just the two of them that's when tamra and b would lounge on their beds listening to music and talking those were always the best times of all it was a really fun year and then came senior year of high school you know it should have been like the highlight of our lives but it was during that fall that she started to tell me some stuff about when she was a kid and i don't know if it was stuff she had ever thought about before tamra doesn't want to the details but broadly b began sharing painful traumatic memories and i was the only one that she was talking about it with you know i didn't i didn't know what to say and i said i know which is like the worst thing to say because i didn't know but i kind of meant like i know that this is hard for you or like i i know this now that you've told me like i'm hearing you tamra could see that b was struggling but tamra wasn't sure who to turn to for counsel at one point she tried listing a dorm parent i knocked on her door and i said i'm not sure he's okay and she was like what do you mean and i was like i'm just i'm not sure he's okay and she was like okay thanks and like that was it and you know who the the counselor was like the guidance counselor it was the 65 year old man who had been a missionary in like the 60s and if you went to his office all he would do was say i'm not sure he's okay and i said i'm not sure he's okay and she was like he would do was talk about like the big game he had hunted with the messiah in kenya and he would like show you his spears and the heads of the antelope like he was completely unqualified to deal with like anybody's emotional problems then one day in november something happened that ratcheted up tamra's concerns even more b and tamra were hanging out in the dorm with their friend christy the three of them were flipping through a pile of photographs b saw a picture of herself it was a picture of her looking at the camera smiling and she screamed and like dropped the picture and we were like oh my god like what is it and she showed us the photo and like above her head in the background there was like a weird little white mark you know it could have been like a flash from a camera but she was like screaming and pointing and she was like oh my god what is it and she was like oh my god what is it and she was like oh my god what is it and she was like oh my god what is it and she was like oh my god what is it and then a couple hours later b and i were in our room studying b turned around and she looked up at the like the ceiling corner and she screamed again and she said there it is and she like pointed at the cinder block wall and there was nothing there and she said there it is and she like pointed at the cinder block wall and there was nothing there but she said there it is and like screaming christy came over from next door to help but neither she nor tamra could make sense of b's behavior tamra can't remember exactly how they came to the conclusion they did but somehow an idea took hold of all three girls b was being followed by a demon eventually tamra was able to find a listening ear b was able to find a listening ear and she said there it is and like screaming mr l not only was mr l super friendly but he was someone b knew well and had a good relationship with i felt really relieved that like finally an adult was helping but the relief tamra felt was short-lived because when mr l heard what had happened he issued an alarming verdict he was like oh well obviously you guys are like under attack from satan You know, there's things going on on in the spirit world. And I wasn't I wasn't like a super hardcore Christian, but it like really scared the heck out of me. So like all of a sudden I was. All of a sudden you you felt more religious. Yes, because all of a sudden I was like, there's proof. Like, what are we going to do? So one Friday night, Mr. L had Tamara, Christy and B over to his house. And in his kitchen, he and his wife did this exorcism. After serving the girls dinner, Mr. and Mrs. L knelt on the kitchen floor. With the overhead lights glaring, Tamara and Christy were told to lay hands on B. In the name of Jesus, Satan be gone. And like she started screaming, like kind of writhing around and like super screaming. And kind of and like making weird voices. You know, it didn't seem like her. This person we were next to, it didn't seem like her. Yeah. And that's when I was like, holy crap. Like, this is for real. This is like, like I'm next to a demon. Terrified, like the most terrified I'd been in my life. Tamara says that at a certain point, the yelling and shaking reached a close point. And then, it all just stopped. Afterwards, Bea acted like nothing out of the ordinary had happened. It was like she couldn't remember the exorcism at all. That night, all three girls slept on the L's fold-out couch, Bea in the middle. And I was just like laying there with my eyes wide open, like, who is this next to me? I couldn't fall asleep. And then, in the morning, it was like, okay, like, they gave us breakfast. And like, guys, just, you know, like, keep praying and stay strong in Christ. And, like, we went back to our room. And then, did you try to talk to her or? No, because, like, I didn't know, like, is this, is this her? Like, that issue there? Yeah. Became, like, the whole issue. In every interaction, Tamara wondered, am I actually talking to Bea? Or am I dealing with, like, this demon? Who is this? Who am I talking to right now? And it ruined our friendship. Like, we spent the rest of the year basically trying to avoid each other. But it's, like, it's hard to avoid each other when you're roommates. Like, we didn't have these lay around on our beds and just, like, shoot the shit kind of things anymore. It was, I don't know if you've ever been, like, living with a girlfriend or boyfriend and, like, broken up with them, but you're still living together. Yeah. It's really awkward. You know, just like, hi. Yeah. How are you? How was class? Like, oh, great. Uh-huh. And that's the, and that's the way you wrote out the year. Yeah, and I just could not wait to graduate. I could not wait to go home. When she finally did return home, Tamara was greeted by yet another crisis, one with eerie echoes of the crisis she'd left behind. Over the past couple years, Tamara's father had become increasingly devout, even founding his own church and hiring his own pastor. And recently, things had taken a disturbing turn. Her father had begun having paranoid religious thoughts. He believed he was being tormented by Satan. Later that summer, only weeks after her graduation, he took his own life. After my father died, I had to come to this reckoning on my own with, like, Christianity and God. Because he'd been a good Christian, but he'd suffered. Like, he told my mom that, like, Satan had come and taken him to hell and had shown him, like, you've lived a terrible life. And this is what's going to happen to you after you died. And so, like, when my father killed himself, like, he killed himself thinking he was going to go to hell. Like, that's so terrible. And I was just like, you know what? Like, that instant I found out my father died, I was like, I do not believe in God. And it was so freeing because I was like, and if I don't believe in God, then I don't have to believe in demons. And I don't believe in Satan. And I don't believe that there's this crazy spiritual other world. And then I was kind of like, well, what does this mean about everything that happened with Bea? And I was like, you know what? I think Bea, I think it was, like, psychological. I think she was really vulnerable and struggling with a lot of things. And I don't think she was possessed. And I don't think Satan was attacking us. And Bea suffered. Now, when Tamara thinks back on Bea's suffering, she no longer blames Satan. Instead, she blames herself. Like, it was such a betrayal from me to be the one who knew all this about her and then turned around and said, like, you're so damaged that, like, Satan is after you. Like, someone told her she was possessed. Like, that's so mean. And, like, how terrible for the way I treated her for the rest of that year. Like, how terrible for her to have to live with somebody who's kind of always looking at her askance. I can't help feeling like Tamara is being hard on herself. I don't doubt that her guilt is real. But I just don't think the self-blame is warranted. Can I just say here, like, you, A, you were a kid. And, B, you actually did. Like, which is kind of remarkable. You actually did seek help. Yeah, I guess. I mean, I should have been the one to be like, let's not do this. And, like, I want her to forgive me. I want her to know I'm sorry. You know, the other night, I got out. That's in the yearbook reserved for anybody. So it says, Dearest T, I can't explain how much you mean to me in words. So just add up all the stars in the sky and all the colors in the sunset, and that's how much I love you. You're not the introverted geek I was anticipating. We had our memories in our little room. Those were fun. Thanks for believing in me when I didn't. Thanks for snuggling with me in snuffs, which was her little stuffed animal, especially during thunderstorms. I'm not going to write down all our memories, because you remember everything. I love you and see you this summer. Work on those leg muscles. And then, um, in our senior yearbook, it's the same thing. You open the front cover, and that prime real estate spot. Once again, underlined at the top of the page, reserved for B. And then there's just a blank page underneath it. Tamara's now in her mid-40s. She hasn't seen B's since she was 18. After so much time, the task of reconnecting feels insurmountable. And so she's hoping I might help. This has seemed just impossible for me to. for me to do. We'll check in, and we'll figure out some kind of strategy. Sounds good. Yeah, but I hope you feel okay. I hope you can, like, take a breather and take a walk or something. Yeah, I'm going to, like, maybe go buy some clothes. I like a pure Gatorade and just drink the whole thing. There you go. I don't think Gatorade is sponsoring this episode. But if they are, you'll hear all about it. Or some equally awesome beverage, phone plan, or men's grooming product during these heartfelt words from our sponsors. If you're a music fan, here's a new podcast to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. every artist can point to that turning point, that moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Jacob Goldstein from Business History. Imagine Henry Ford trying to create the assembly line. He had factory plans, production schedules, supply information, research, and ideas coming from all directions. His team spent years studying how to make the process work. Now, imagine having ChatGPT work. ChatGPT work can help with big projects that have lots of steps. You give it the goal, along with real information like notes, files, reports, feedback, and project plans. It can use approved apps, connected tools, and files to help turn all of that into something useful. A plan, an analysis, a tracker, a presentation outline, or a workflow you can keep improving. And you stay in control. You give direction, review the work, approve actions, and choose the final result. Would Henry Ford have built the assembly line faster with ChatGPT? We'll never know. Ford didn't have ChatGPT. You do. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro, plans. Malcolm Gladwell here. My new book, The American Way of Killing, investigates America's gun violence crisis. Why is the richest country in the world plagued by such lethal violence? Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the U.S. has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Get The American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm. The logical place to start the search for any long-lost classmate is Facebook. But until now, Tamara's never been able to bring herself to type in Bea's name. When she does, though, she finds Bea easily. And as best as she can tell, Bea seems happy. She's been married to the same guy. She has two beautiful, blonde daughters. Who look just like her. And I was like, wow, like, that's amazing. Did it relieve you? Yeah. Because I'd always worried, like, is she okay? Like, did we damage her? And the funny thing is, like, my life didn't even turn out that great. And I was, like, so superior at the time. Like, I'm not the one who was attacked by Satan. And now, like, I'm the one with, like, kind of the crappy life. You know, I'm divorced. Like, I'm a single mom. I don't have, like, an awesome career. My kid is a huge pain in the neck. I love him. Yeah. Now that Tamara's found Bea, she sends her a message. In it, she explains how she's been regretting their senior year for almost 30 years. After a week without a response, Tamara follows up. And this time, Bea answers, saying it's nice to hear from her and that they should get coffee sometime. Tamara explains that she lives out of state, but maybe they can talk on the phone about senior year. But at the mention of senior year, Bea stops responding. Over the coming months, their exchanges follow this same pattern. Tamara asks to talk, and Bea is willing. Until Tamara makes mention of senior year. That's when Bea goes quiet. In the ensuing silence, Tamara finds herself thinking about the other girl who witnessed the exorcism with her. The third girl on the fold-out bed that night. Christy. Because I was like, you know, the only other person who went through this is Christy. In her senior year book, Tamara found a message from Christy, too. In it, Christy makes oblique reference to all that she and Tamara had gone through. She wrote, This is kind of difficult for me to sign because of obvious reasons. I cannot say to you the usual, I've had a lot of fun being your friend. I think I feel like I've disappointed you in some way. If I have, I'm sorry. I'm human, and I've made many mistakes. We were allowed to witness a world which was not of our own, but it made our world somehow more real. I think you understand all that I'm trying to say without even me having to say it. You've helped me bring about the single most important year of my life. And if I never forget anyone, it will be you that I do not forget. Remember that to whom much is given, much is expected. Love, Christy. Wow. What do you think she was referring to when she says that she hopes that she didn't disappoint you? I think she meant that, like, I think she just wanted to be like a regular teenager again. Christy's presence in Tamara's life dwindled, and when high school ended, they completely lost touch. Now, though, rereading the inscription as an adult, Tamara wonders, does Christy still carry Gil the way she does? So Tamara looks her up. And, um, I found a obituary. She's dead. She died last year. So, hoping to find out what it had to do with her, I'm going to go to the library. I'm going to go to the library. And I'm going to go to the library. Tamara reached out to a well-connected old classmate, but the classmate wasn't even aware that Christy had died. She promised to ask around, though, and try to find out more information. She, like, asked everybody on her Facebook group, including people who were really close friends with Christy. And nobody knew. Like, Christy's been dead for a year, and the first person who knew was me. Tamara saw that a neighbor of Christy's left a comment on the online obituary, so she messaged him. The neighbor told her, that Christy had overdosed. That for years, she struggled with alcohol and prescription drugs. He said that Christy was battling demons. Hello? Tamara? Hi, happy new year. How are you? Yeah, happy new year to you. I'm good. The new year is 2020, two years since Tamara and I first spoke. In the interim, there have been and even an old-fashioned letter explaining how much Tamara wants to talk about senior year. But Bea never responded. In spite of that, Bea did friend Tamara on Facebook, where they keep things light. You know, we've had little Facebook comments, like, looks like a fun trip. Right. If I, like, post pictures of, like, my broken Christmas tree, you know, like, nothing great. She'll be like, that's great. Smiley face. Or thumbs up. Emojis aren't the deepest of languages. But from my perspective, Bea seems fine with Tamara. Even though she might not want to rehash the past, she doesn't seem to harbor any ill will. Tamara, though, doesn't see it that way. And she still feels bad. So bad that she's come to a decision to stop trying to reach Bea. Who am I to, like, revisit this miserable time in your life so that I can feel, less bad? Maybe I should feel guilty about it. Like, maybe we should feel guilty about bad things we do. As always, I tell Tamara she's being hard on herself. And Tamara says, yes, she knows, but without seeming to believe it. You know, when you want to rewind your life to, like, the spot where you would start doing better, that's the point. Like, senior year. Like, I want to rewind it to that point and be like, can I restart right here? Like, I just really veered off the path. I feel like that was one of the first really bad decisions I made. Tamara walks me through all the bad decisions that followed senior year. Decisions for which she faults herself. Like her decision to socially isolate during college. Or her decision to stay at home. Or her decision to get married. And stay married for 15 years. In spite of knowing it was a bad idea from the start. But for Tamara, worst of all are the decisions she made the summer of her father's death. Again, she brings up the story of his suicide. In this telling, she begins with the days leading up to his death. She explains how he'd been sent to the hospital for depression. He was released shortly after she graduated. As soon as he got home, I was like, oh my god, he looks terrible. Like, he does not seem better. And it was like a couple days later. He like showed up in like a public hallway. Just stood there. And I was like, do you want to go out for yogurt? Which was like also super weird. I would never do anything like that with my dad. But he's just like standing there. And he was like, okay. And we got the yogurt and we're sitting in the parking lot. And he's like, well, you know, we're going to go out for yogurt. And I'm like, okay. And he's So the coming year is going to be really hard for you and I just want you to. take care of mom and take care of Evan, who's my younger brother. And, like, I knew what he was saying. And I was like, no, like, it's going to be fine. And he was like, I wish I had been a better father. But I was trying to pretend I didn't know what he was saying. I was like, no, it's fine. Like, don't worry about it. But I knew I was like, fuck, like, this guy's going to do it. Like, he's going to kill himself. That was, like, Tuesday night. And, like, I told my sister. And she's like, I know. I know he's, like, I can tell he's going to do it. And, like, we told my mom. And she's like, no, like, he told me he wouldn't. I don't think he will. And then I was just like, okay, okay. And just, like, gave up. Just, like, didn't do anything else. And it was a really tense week. Because every day I was like, is today the day? Is tomorrow the day? Friday was the day. I don't know who was in charge at that point. Like, my mom, some doctor. Like, they could have done better. Like, we could have done better. Yet again, the adults in Tamara's life had fallen short. And she was left, is still left, shouldering the burden of guilt. Hearing this, I can't help feeling like the situation with her father and the situation with Bea, happening back to back as they did, might have become knotted up in Tamara's mind. Talking with Bea might have helped Tamara untangle that knot. But now that that conversation isn't possible, I'm at a loss about how else to help. It feels like we've reached a kind of end. After the break, six years later. You'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today. Now, imagine having ChatGP. ChatGPT work. We'll never know. You do. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans. Get The American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or at Audible, Spotify, or wherever audiobooks are sold. Tim? Hi. Wow. How long has it been? A while. It has been quite a while. Six years since Tamara and I last spoke, and eight years since we first spoke. At this point, I hadn't thought we'd ever be speaking again. I was pleasantly surprised to hear from you, but surprised. Yeah. I mean, I had kind of given up on the whole thing, but I started thinking about it again because my son is about to graduate from high school. Tamara's son, Sawyer, is no longer a Gatorade-swilling child. He's now 18, the same age Tamara was when everything went down with Bea. Sawyer's senior year of high school has brought Tamara back to her own. And with that, Bea is squarely back on her mind. Initially, Tamara had come to me wanting forgiveness from Bea. After seeing that that wasn't going to happen, she tried to make peace on her own. But it hasn't worked. After eight years, she still feels just as guilty. So what to do? Bea doesn't want to talk, and Christy is dead. I even tried to reach Mr. L, but never heard back. There didn't seem to be anyone left to turn to. And then I was like, you know, that's not, that's not exactly true. There might be one other student who also has memories of what happened that year. After the exorcism, Tamara decided the best course of action for keeping Bea safe was to pray as much as possible. So Tamara and Christy started getting up around 5.30 every morning to pray before class. And there was someone else the two enlisted to pray with them, a boy named John. Like, he was not at the Mr. and Mrs. L's house. Okay. But I'm sure he remembers. John and Tamara became friends when Tamara first showed up at the school in ninth grade. And through the years, they've stayed friends, keeping in touch every so often through email. Unlike Tamara, John has remained religious. John, Tamara says, was quiet and sensitive, the kind of kid who always held the door for everyone. He knew Bea, and in the aftermath, he got up early every morning and prayed with Christy and Tamara. Is there anything that you want to ask him or talk to him about? I mean, I would love it if he was like, oh yeah, I remember that. And you know what? It just really wasn't that big a deal. Or even if he was like, I don't remember that at all. Like, that would be a great answer for me. Having done this show for about 10 years, I can tell you that wanting to confirm someone's lack of memory has never come up as a mission. In fact, that is the exact opposite of what people usually want. But Tamara is hoping that John's lack of memory might allow her to see that the exorcism in its aftermath just wasn't as big a deal as she thought it was. And that might alleviate her guilt. But also, like, I can face the music from John. I think he'd be very honest. Like, if he's like, oh no, that was really, like, bad. That was super weird. That even messed me up. Like, I'm not going to love that answer, like, at all. But, but I can, like, face the music from that. If that's what I'm due. It really does sound like what you're looking for is absolution. Yeah. Or, like, maybe it's my, you know, for lack of a better term, like, my cross to bear. I'll get John on the line. Okay. Okay, here we go. Hello? John? Yes? Hi, John. Hey, Tim. How are you? It's good to hear your voice. But before they can even get into it. Tim, I hate to do this. My fire alarm in my house is going off. Can you just, can I put you on mute for just a second? I need to run in there and check it. Yeah, hold on, okay? I'm so sorry. Holy cow. I'm so sorry about that. Is everything okay? Yeah, everything's fine. I just did put some boiled eggs in and then realized what time it was and they've been boiling for the last hour or so. They were smoking. Oh, my God. I'm going to put you on mute because there's a fireman at my door. I'm so sorry. Oh, my God. Holy cow. When you stop to think about it, I'm a fireman too, an emotional fireman extinguishing the fires of the past. So when John returns, I get out my prompting hose and set the nozzle to a low-pressure prod. Do you want to explain, Tam, you know, what questions you might have about that time? Yeah, I guess the question would just be, like, do you remember anything kind of, like, weird or out of the ordinary, like some kind of crisis that occurred with me and Christy? Tamara's language is circumspect. She doesn't want to give too much away. And so John is confused. Can you give me a hint? It was like a Christian crisis. Okay. Suddenly had to, like, form this, like, ad hoc prayer group. You were there. I think you're going to have to give me a little bit more. So Tamara gives him more about Bea and the night of the exorcism. She reminds him of how afterwards she and Christy recruited him into fending off the evil spirits with their souls. We were, like, making time first thing in the morning to, like, go to the gym and pray, like, even before breakfast. Would you have told me everything that was going on? Or would it have just been, like, to come to the gym and pray? I don't know. I mean, the fact that, like, oh, somebody thinks they're possessed by a demon, the fact that that's, like, not standing out in your mind. If someone. If I had been told that Bea was, like, possessed by, you know, demons, I definitely would remember that. John says that back then he prayed with friends quite often. So while he doesn't doubt that he was there praying, he suspects he might not have been told why he was brought in. I can envision not being told because if you told other students that sort of thing, it's going to start all sorts of, like, gossip and not that I was going to be gossiping or whatever. Yeah, you're right. You're actually right. While Tamara has gotten her best-case scenario in that John doesn't remember, it's not for the reason she'd hoped. John doesn't remember because she just never told him. Even after she'd exhausted all the channels she had, Tamara shielded Bea from gossip. And when you're a teenager, that's everything. When Tamara thinks about senior year, her focus is always on Bea. And in various ways and at various points over the course of eight years, I've tried to get Tamara to lay down Bea's suffering and acknowledge her own. Now I try again, asking her whether her own past, her own pain, has been erased by questions of what Bea deserved, what Bea was owed. Do you feel like it's at the expense of, like, maybe what you feel you were, you deserved, or what you were owed? Maybe. Yet again, Tamara offers half-hearted semi-agreement. So I press on. I mean, your year was not a cakewalk. You were going through a lot yourself. And I'm wondering, John, do you, do you know, Tam, did you share with John, like, what you were going through with the death of your father that year? Honestly, I thought that's what this call was going to be about. Of course, John would assume that her father's death was the most pressing issue from that time. With the mention of Tamara's dad, a memory arises for John. He was at home after graduation when the phone rang. His mom answered. She just was on the phone and said it like it was no big deal that Tam's dad had passed away. I don't think she realized that it was going to upset me the way that it did. But it upset me. I'm sure she saw the look of, like, shock and grief on my face because I had known Tam since we were in ninth grade together. And we were friends. I can give you, like, the sequence, John. Okay. So, like, maybe it helps a little bit. So once again, Tamara tells the story of her father's death. And this time, in sharing it with John, she reveals details that were hitherto, he'd been struggling our whole senior year. And he talked to me more that year than he probably ever had. And sometimes it would be, like, normal talk. And then sometimes it would just be, like, weird God stuff. And so when he first became, like, very, very depressed, my parents turned to the pastor, and the church was the first line of treatment. Just like with Bea, that treatment, mostly consisted of laying of hands, of more and more prayer. Instead of being treated as delusions, her father's visions of hell were treated as a call to fight Satan. This went on for months until Tamara's older sister came home from college. And she told my mom, like, you have to take him to a doctor. And then he was put in the hospital. And so it was not long before graduation, my mom called me. I remember being on the phone in the Monroe phone room. The pay phone? Yeah, like, apropos of nothing. She's like, oh, your dad's in the hospital. And I said, well, what kind of hospital? And she said, a psychiatric hospital. And I was like, oh. And then I, like, hung up the phone, and I walked out the front door. I didn't even have any shoes on. Just walked out onto the field, and the graduates, the graduation stage had been set up, John. Mm-hmm. Up on that graduation stage, there sat John, his legs dangling off the side. Tamara says that he was the first person she saw after getting off the phone. She stopped and told him that her dad was in the hospital. Before he could offer any response, she continued walking. She just wanted him to know. And then we graduated, and my dad wasn't there. And then on, uh, July 12th, 1991, uh, that's when he shot himself. Like, it was gruesome. Like, he put a shotgun, like, in his mouth, pulling the trigger going, and I'm going to hell. It's really hard. That was a hard time. It was not an easy time. Yeah, I was great. It was a hard time, too. I didn't get much help, either. Hearing all this, John again considers Tamara's guilt over Bea. We were children. You can't, you can't expect somebody that's that age to respond in a mature way that assumes that they have, like, training. Especially because you had your own stuff going on. I think, you know, I think what you've described to me sounds very brave. You're probably the only person that was looking out for her. You did the best you could. Tam, how does that make you feel? I mean, it made me start to cry when he said that. You know, I hope he had somebody in her life that would be able to later told her, like, told her that she was doing the best she could. Yeah, I mean, it definitely is helpful. So, thank you, John. You're welcome. And I'd say it again. I mean, you just need to give yourself grace. I'm sorry you had to deal with all that. It makes me sad. I wish I had known. I wish I had known more. I'm not sure I would have been any better at helping. I probably wouldn't have been any better than any of the rest of them, but I'm really sorry. Thanks. That's so nice. That's really nice. You're a good friend, John. John's words provide validation in a way that years of my words couldn't. Sometimes, it just takes a friend to untangle the knot. All right. Well, I hope you have, um, I hope you have something to eat other than those eggs. I'm definitely not eating those eggs. The fireman was at the front door, and he said, I was about to kick your door in. And so, I'm glad I got there. He had an axe in his hand, and they had, you know, so there was a fire engine. I'm probably, there's no telling what kind of trouble I'm in. But, yeah. What's that? Was that okay? Yeah. Can you let yourself off the hook a little? Yeah. Yeah. And I have to. I have to. Yeah. It's just hard being this old. You know, like having this event like lodged inside you. Like it's crystallized into the way it is for so long. As like something bad I did to somebody else. You know, swear being 18 and like what I would expect from him. I would never expect him to take on anything like that. Yeah. A 52-year-old town should do a lot better. But I can go back to, you know, 18-year-old town and be like, she was doing the best she could. It's not absolution, but it's something close. Thank you. Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home Now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damaged deposit Take this moment to decide If we meant it, if we meant it If we tried Or felt around for far too much From things that accidentally tied This episode of Heavyweight was produced by Kalila Holt and me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Lisa Wang. Our supervising producer is Stevie Lane. Editorial guidance from Emily Condon. Special thanks to Ben Natafhaffrey, Daphne Chen, Gabriel Hunter-Chang, and Jackie Cohen. Emma Munger mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Sampson, Emma Munger, and Bobby Lord. Additional scoring by Hugh Time, Chris Zabriskie, and Blue Dot Sessions. Our theme song is by The Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on Instagram at heavyweightpodcast or email us at heavyweight at pushkin.fm. And be sure to subscribe to our free newsletter at patreon.com slash heavyweightpodcast. We'll be back with a new episode in two weeks. Welcome, Gladwell here. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.