Speaker 1Hello Misfits, Rebels and Underdogs, how the hell are you doing? It has been a while. The apologies are all mine of course, but you can rest assured it's not because I've been sitting around twiddling my thumbs doing nothing. I have been insanely busy with James Kennedy and the Underdogs and my second book, which is coming out in a matter of months, man. I've also got a pitch for a third book in the pipeline and working currently on new material for the band to be released next year. Since we last spoke, we've also secured a new booking agent for the UK and a separate booking agent for Europe as well. So 2025 is looking like it's going to be a good one. So there you go. Hopefully I've justified myself and explained myself now as to why I've been away from the podcast for such a long time. But I'm committed to doing these things long term, man. So, you know, there may be a gap between episodes sometimes, you know, but hey, that's just how it goes. If you're hungry for more and more ain't coming fast enough for you, please do go back to the start and check out the other episodes. Because we've had some amazing guests on this thing. And if you don't want to miss it when I drop one of these bad boys, because I am so inconsistent with when I drop them these days, then please do subscribe and follow the podcast so that you get a notification when I land one of these things on you out of the blue. Now, today we are going to be talking about all things to do with music sync. That's sync spelled S-Y-N-C, not like a kitchen sink. Now, for those of you who don't know, sync is short for synchronization. It is music. Synchronization, basically the music that accompanies moving picture on the screen, whether that's in a movie or a TV show or an advert or a computer game or whatever it might be. Someone somewhere is responsible for filtering out all of the music in the world, and God knows there's a lot of it, and picking the perfect soundtrack that enriches the stories that enrich all of our lives. Getting a sync as it's known or a sync placement is the holy grail of musicians and artists all over the world. Everybody wants to get that soundtrack. But the world of music. Sync is still one that is very much in the shadows. Most musicians don't know anything about how it works, how to get their music front and center to be considered for a placement, and who are the players involved in this mostly secretive and shadowy side of the industry. But we are blowing the lid on all of it today, and we're getting an insider to come in and do a deep dive and give you guys the lowdown on all things music sync from one of the best in the biz. So I'm not going to keep you guys hanging any longer. Let's just jump right into it because we are privileged to be joined today by the awesome... Amanda Krieg-Thomas, Emmy-nominated music supervisor who has brought us the soundtracks The Big Mouth, Pitch Perfect 2, American Horror Story, The Patient, The Jeffrey Dahmer Story, The People vs. O.J. Simpson, and literally too many more to mention. She is also the author of the brilliant book Thinking in Sync, a regular speaker at music conventions around the world, and a former member of the Board of Directors for the Guild of Music Supervisors. So I think it's fair to say that she knows what she's talking about. So let's get into it, and welcome to the show, Amanda Krieg-Thomas. Thank you so much for giving us your time. How are you doing?
Speaker 2I'm so good. Thank you so much for having me, James. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1I appreciate you giving us your time because I know you are super, super busy crushing it on all of those projects and many more. So we're super thankful to have you today. For people who don't know, before we jump into the broader issues and stuff, what is music supervision? What is it you do for a living, essentially?
Speaker 2Yeah, so it can be a lot of different things. So I sort of explain it. I get hired by... By a film or a TV show to oversee all elements of music on that project. And that can be really anything from sort of what a lot of people think about, like, you know, pitching songs for scenes, whether it's a big scene, like a montage or something in the background, coming up, working with the creators on ideas for those, doing all the clearances, obtaining the rights, doing all the... There's a lot of paperwork and research involved in that process. But then it can really also... It can really also include, like, planning for on-camera performances. If there's a band playing or someone singing or someone quoting lyrics or any of that. And sometimes it also includes working with the composer, helping get them hired, helping, you know, liaise with them and the director or the showrunner as needed. And just sort of helping that process along. And some projects, it ends up being one or two of those things. Some projects, it's kind of all of those things. But really anything that... Kind of falls under the umbrella of music on a particular project, a music supervisor is usually involved in some way or another. So every day is a little bit different. Every fire is a little bit different. But that's kind of what makes it fun most of the time.
Speaker 1Well, it's a world that I think I should know more about being, you know, as I am an active musician for the past 20 years. And I've also placed quite a few sinks myself in, you know, TV shows and adverts around the world and stuff like that. So you'd think I'd know more. You'd think I'd know more about it. But it's still very much a mystery what it is you guys get up to within the four walls that you work within. You know, I imagine you in some kind of evil villain's cave, you know, with some witch's cauldron or something, you know, whipping up your black magic. You know, it's not a part of the industry that's as visible as most of the other parts of the industry. So can you enlighten us? What is it you guys get up to on an average day?
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, that's pretty accurate. Like, it often feels like I am in a cave because I am mostly just... These days, I am just staring at my computer. I am sending email after email. But, you know, on some days, you know, where we receive a lot of emails from editors on various different projects saying, Oh, we need a song for this montage. We need a song for this, you know, restaurant. It needs to be background and instrumental. So we're working on, you know, some days we're working on searches like that, coming up with creative ideas. And sometimes like... That process is as simple as like pulling from our own library. Sometimes it's on Spotify. Sometimes we're emailing a lot of our contacts at labels and publishers because, hey, the scene that they want to put music in, someone's getting murdered or doing drugs. So we have to do a bunch of extra research to make sure how whatever we're sending to the editors on a show, that it's probably going to clear we're not going to get into a situation where someone falls in love. And then all of a sudden, whoops, that artist never approves drug use. So all of that, you know, that's all involved in creative searching. Sometimes, you know, other times we're working on some like tough clearances. So I'm getting emails from different labels and publishers going like, can you send us more information about this? Is this, you know, or is this the fee that you can the best that you can do? And we're going back and forth on that. A lot of times I am emailing. I'm emailing with my producers going like, hey, guys, like, this is what an episode looks like in terms of cost. We're very over budget. We're very under budget. What do you want to do? How do we sort of manage this in the big picture? Do you love the song? Do you not? Some days we're reading scripts and getting ready for episodes or a film to shoot, which means we're looking at scripts and kind of identifying like, oh, OK, like they're singing a song here or there's a club scene here. Or what are the things we need to prepare for that to happen? OK, maybe it's pulling ideas for that, reaching out to the director, asking what they have in mind. Do they want music? Do they not? And then other times, you know, when we finish episodes and that's a lot of paperwork to prepare for that, like making sure we have all the clearances from what was used, making sure the music editor has the information about what was used for the cue sheet, sending everything off to the studios. So to say this is done, here you go. So it's kind of a little of everything, depending on the phases of a project. So right now we have like two that are finishing. So we're working on a lot of wrapping up paperwork because they're finishing mixes, final mixes, getting ready to air. And then we've got one or two that are kind of in the thick of post-production. So we're getting a lot of creative searches. We're doing a lot of clearances for those. And then one that's sort of preparing to start shooting. So we're reading scripts and sort of making sure that on the production side, like, you know, if there's a choir singing that we start sort of getting ahead of what they're doing and how that's going now. So it really changes day to day, depending on what the state of the project is. But overall, it's probably a lot more emails and a lot less listening to music than I think a lot, a lot of people assume the job is. Because there's just, you're mostly managing, you're doing a lot of managing of a lot of different parts of the puzzle. So like the music listening and sort of being only one piece of this greater project.
Speaker 1It's so interesting that you say that because I feel like that's become the reality for everybody in the arts now, isn't it? I mean, most musicians that I speak to, I can certainly vouch for it myself. I would say that I spend more time doing emails now as well, rather than like playing my guitar, writing songs, you know?
Speaker 2I totally, I mean, the business, it's really a business. I mean, the entertainment industry, I think that like, you know, the people who tend to kind of thrive in it are the people that can do a little bit of both. Like they have a creative mindset and they love that part of it. But they also do have an understanding that it is, there is a business side and that, that part of it, whether it's like how to write an email or, like, you know, a specialized skill, like, how to clear a song, like, that, they kind of go hand in hand, and you can't really forget about one, and, I mean, honestly, sometimes almost, like, the business side and the more, like, strategic and, like, that side of things kind of ends up taking over more of my day, and, like, for me personally, and I think a lot of everyone might have a different answer to this, but for me, I think that that skill set is really what has helped my career more than having good music taste or cool music taste. It's, like, knowing how to, like, be a manager, you know, work with difficult personalities, be a good team player, be solution-oriented, like, those are really the skills over the sort of, like, having a cool music library that I think have helped me.
Speaker 1That's so interesting. Yeah, that's so interesting. Like, we talk about it in the band all the time. It's, like, you know, we'd rather have a drummer that can actually turn up on time and do the job without, you know, getting us kicked out of the club than be the best drummer in the world, you know, we'd rather. It's the other stuff, you know, like, people need to know, like, your clients need to know that you're going to get it delivered on time, that all the clearances are going to be tied up, and there's not going to be any, you know, last-minute surprises or anything, and, you know, yeah, that's so interesting that you say that, because there's so many parallels with that. Every other ladder of the music industry, and one thing that I've, like, I've never been able to understand with you guys is how the hell do you make sense of all of the music that there is out there? Because I imagine, you know, you, like, you must get so inundated with submissions and music from all different directions and your own discoveries as well, like, how do you make sense of all that? How do you organize all that in a way that you can actually make sense of it when a search comes in?
Speaker 2Oh my gosh, well, I kind of don't know. I mean, the nice thing is that, you know, in doing this for as many years as I have, and worked on as many shows as I have, like, I find myself actually going back to past searches quite often, so, like, that is, it's easier for me to, I have a Spotify, you know, I listen to Spotify, I have an iTunes, it's, like, a little bit organized, but I am, very meticulously organized when I am working on a show, so, like, when we do, when I have a creative need for a specific show, we are, like, I might over, like, pull a bunch of ideas that are for way more than that show needs, but then I'm, like, you know what, that same search or something similar to it could come up in one year, in two years, or tomorrow, and so I actually end up going back to a lot of past searches, and, and in terms of making sense of a lot of the music, like, for me, the shows really help me focus at all, and so, on my own, I like trying to kind of keep up with, like, some of what's new, some of what I see, you know, come through, like, I just, you know, you're right in that I, you know, I get hundreds of emails, at least probably 100 emails a day of music, probably at least two emails every day. Of some, a brand new company, or artist, or manager saying, will you use my music, so it just really adds up to the point that, like, I kind of can't make sense of a lot of it, but I, if something feels specific, and, like, oh, wow, like, I've never seen someone have that before, I may not have time to listen to it, but I will save it, so, like, I, and then, and then you just never know when that search will come up, like, oh, you know, you need vintage music, you know, you need Thai music from, you know, whatever, that Thai pop music, and then I'll be like, oh, you know what, I remember that one person sent me, and I have a folder that's, like, world music, and, and I will go back, and I will go back and search for that stuff, but in terms of just general listening, I've kind of given up, I've given up on, on listening to it all, on responding to it all, but I try to save emails as best I can, I, I end up going back through things, we've done in the past, and using that as a jumping off point for, you know, maybe something new I'm working on, and for better and for worse, I end up working on, I mean, really for better, because I like it, I work on a lot of, um, period set TV shows, so that kind of limits the pool in a way, so it helps me sort of not feel that pressure to know everything that's coming out in every genre, because, you know, this one show, it, it doesn't go past 1991, so, I, like, I won't be using music from later than 91, or I won't be using later, music later than 2013, so, like, that helps me sort of prioritize and focus on what I am listening to, um, which I, I really like, I kind of love having those rules, I think if I was working on a show that's contemporary, I would kind of need to, like, find some rules to put on myself, or I would just get kind of overwhelmed.
Speaker 1I can't imagine, yeah, it must be insane, the amount of content that you must have to store away, not only on your computer, but in the back of your brain, somewhere, of all the stuff that you've heard over the years, because I know from my own experience.
Speaker 3It's pretty crazy. Yeah. It's a lot.
Speaker 1I can, I can't imagine how you'd do it, it really is a superpower, like I say, it's kind of like a dark art that I, I know a little bit about, but I can't fathom how you managed to do it, because, um.
Speaker 2It is very, it's all about email folders, because, yeah, I can't keep it all in my head either, so I just have. Lots of email folders that I try to draw on, draw on when the time comes, so, yes, it is kind of a dark art. People who do have it all in their heads, I'm just like, I salute you, but I rely on email folders mostly.
Speaker 1Okay, that makes a lot of sense. Well, how about this? Riddle me this one, I'm dying to know what you make of this, because when I was doing it, we used to have briefs that would come in, you know, on a daily basis from sub-publishers around the world and stuff like that, and they're very specific to anyone that hasn't seen one of these sync briefs, they can be very specific, and this one was for an advert, and they wanted, it was set in the woods, they wanted something kind of earthy, and preferably a banjo, they wanted the word love to feature in the chorus, they wanted it to change from major to minor, they wanted it at a certain tempo, certain arrangement, um, very, very detailed, and by the stroke of miracle, I don't know how the hell it happened, I actually had that song. It was incredible, I was like, this is a gift from God, I've got this song, I've got this sync, so I sent it to them. I sent it off, I was like, you're not going to believe this, this song ticks all of the boxes, and, uh, and they didn't choose it. So what's happening there?
Speaker 2It is, it is, I get it, it is hard, it is hard out there, because yeah, like, the searches are specific, and like, they're, you just never know, yeah, like, when you have that, it's like, oh my God, this is amazing, but then on the other side, there are usually like, a bunch of, you know, you all have their own opinions, and one of the kind of interesting things is, is how everybody hears, can, can hear songs differently, and like, there was one song, um, that we used, it, like, ended up being the main title for a show I worked on a few years ago, and I remember, like, one of the producers was like, this is it, this is the song, I love it, it feels so, like, wistful and hopeful, but like, cathartic. And optimistic, and the other producer was like, oh, wow, like, I actually, to me, that song is just really sad, and like, sort of, um, like, melancholy, and it was just, it was, you know, just one example that kind of comes to my mind of how, like, different people can hear the same song differently, so, like, there might be something that, like, someone pitches to me, and like, then maybe I hear, and I'm like, you know, like, you know, you have that moment, and I have that moment a lot of the time, too, where I'm like, oh my God, this, this is, this is, this is, this is the song, like, I love this song, it works so well, but then someone else, like, the editor, or the, the producer, or whoever might hear it, and be like, I don't know, it's not doing the same thing for me, and you're just like, ah, like, people just, music is such a personal experience to everyone, whether you know about music or don't, it, like, on one hand, I, I love it, like, I love collaborating with people who are really musical, because it's just sort of, you just never know, you know, I don't have any ego about, like, oh, it's like a, you know, a pitch for me, or whatever, um, I love, we're really collaborating with really musical people, um, but it is one of these areas where, like, you know, I think people, a lot of people think music supervisors get hired, and then everybody on a show is like, oh, you're the music supervisor, we're gonna listen to your musical case, and it is, it's, like, shockingly rare how often, like, something that I'm like, oh, this was my idea, makes it to that finish line, because it's just, there are so many people just experience music so differently, and it's so dear to so many people, and so when I am hearing stories like that, where you're like, I had this song, and it was, like, such a specific brief, and it felt so good, like, I'm always just, like, I, you know, it is, my heart goes out, because I'm just like, ah, man, like, every sync, you know, I was on a panel, and a friend of mine said this, so I can't take credit, but he's like, every sync is a snowflake, because, like, the circumstances, you know, from, like, you know, the pitch company, the publisher sending the song, through me getting, it through me sending it through the producer seeing it like there's so many variable factors that can lead to one song either like landing it or being kicked out of the running um and out of so many songs in the world it is just like every sink is a snowflake and it is truly um kind of like fatalist i feel like to say so it's either like magical or fatalist but um it is it is sort of interesting it's like when it hits it's magical but then when yeah like when i hear stories like that where i'm like ah like you know we as a supervisor like i want to find a spot for that song like i want i want to get the win especially with like smaller companies i'm like i wish i could get the win but it is it is this the circumstances are crazy it's always so specific and kind of like mercurial to to have it all come together that's a great point i love that the idea
Speaker 1of sink is a snowflake so many things are like that i don't think people are truly appreciate that you know that there's so many variables like you say that all have to align at the same time in order for these magical moments to happen and i think it's great that you raised that point because i know what it's like the frustration of being an artist and really believing in your music and wanting it to get placed and stuff but i also know how difficult it is on the other side of the table when you're the publisher placing it because you're not the final arbiter of whether it gets picked or not you can pitch it you put your passion your energy behind it but as you say there's so many different layers that it's got to go through for it to actually reach the finish line you know so i think it's great that you um you make that point because you know i would have thought as well as the music supervisor that you know the final dime would have
Speaker 2lied with you but clearly not no no almost never i mean the music supervisor you know most of us will sort of say that like it really we are hired to serve the vision of the showrunner and often that vision includes music in some way like they they have songs that either they maybe didn't write it into the script but like they have something in mind so like we we are the music supervisors but you know our job is really serving a greater really is serving that greater vision
Speaker 1that isn't ours yeah that makes sense that's a good point and on that point then do you think it's fair to say that because of that that the music supervision and music sync part of the music industry is one of the few places if not the only place within the music industry that is in fact a true merit and i say that because if you've got a scene in a movie or an advert and coldplay submit a song for it but coldplay song doesn't really fit for the vision that you mentioned but an unsigned band from the back end of beyond song fits perfectly then ultimately you know the the unsigned band that doesn't have any clout or exposure will get the placement because it serves that broader vision that you mentioned so in that sense you know any any artist at any level has got the same chance of getting a song that fits perfectly and ultimately you know the the unsigned band that has been placed as as some of the biggest bands on earth is that fair to say or am i completely
Speaker 2off with that i mean i think yes and no i do think that um for if some some showrunners and some some creators like they very much have the belief that like there is something to a recognizable band and a recognizable sound so like to that extent if you're under one of those if that sort of again you're serving the vision of the showrunner right so like if that's sort of how your your leader sort of thinks and like maybe that particular spot there um they really feel like it needs a recognizable song or recognizable artist then your hands are a little tied like you're not but on the on the flip side like at the when when you are on a team where there is that sort of openness it like the things that you mentioned in terms of like social following and and and like how big your shows are like how big your shows are all of that stuff it it doesn't matter because yeah like the end of the day a lot of that time like most of the time that stuff doesn't when when you are with someone who does who wants in the artist who doesn't care like who don't like he doesn't have that recognizable sort of directive um it is it is that case and it really does come down to like what is gonna work in that scene and like what feels good in that scene and it doesn't and like the socials and all that doesn't matter but you do or sometimes there's a director or sometimes it's the studio that sort of comes at you and says like hey like we want you to find artists with this or we want it to be recognizable so um that does happen more you know like i think sometimes in the arts sort of like you know sometimes i'm like i'm trying to replace like queen and and i'll like not that i put searches out publicly but i have seen this sometimes on on the internet someone will be like hey trying to replace this you know major iconic artist and then they're like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god someone will respond and say oh you know like i'm an indie band and i sound just like queen like like i you know you should be able to use me right like why don't you just use me and what and the answer is like i i wish i could but i can't you know like queen is queen or like you most of the time you're trying to it's very hard to replace that with an indie band even though it's like okay yes this one's less expensive it's available it's clearable i get it but you do run into those situations where you have a team that sort of says like this is what we need for this particular spot and then you have your hands are tied more than i think some people think but when you are on the shows where you you're um where you're sort of more open or you have spots within a show where it's much more open yeah we're not looking at socials we're not looking at you know where you're touring or anything like that we are just listening to the song and saying yeah this is what we need to do and we're not looking at socials we're not and and to that point when those opportunities are open like that it is it is a meritocracy in that way like if we hear something that works we're gonna we're gonna try it and we're gonna
Speaker 1pitch it and it can be and it has been you know for many artists getting a sync is a complete career maker isn't it you know it can take an artist from complete obscurity and throw them into the stratosphere by having their song attached to you know what becomes a classic advert or you know a cult movie or tv show or something like that and it's it's it's it's it's
Speaker 2something like that yeah absolutely yeah and it's why as supervisors like we always you know we we look for those you know i i think there are some like i don't know there is there is again like mercurial there is everything there's like a magic to those moments when they happen i mean i know for a lot of the times like we we are you know we do love to use we want to find those moments we want to we want to find those moments where like a new song no one's heard of like hits away where it really it really blows up um but yeah like sometimes sometimes you're just with a team that's not their directive and that's fine too but it is it is always really special when that happens and when when we can sort of be a part of that for a newer artist oh i can imagine
Speaker 1yeah i can imagine the uh the glowing sense of reward when you see that happen you know um so the music industry has changed completely in the past 20 years obviously with the um you know the advent of the internet and digital and streaming and all that sort of stuff how has this affected what you do in your side of the industry do the mechanics still pretty much work the same or has digital made it easier or harder or has it changed or is it pretty much
Speaker 2the same um well so i've only really been so i i first kind of got into supervision in like 2008 2009 um you know so in that time you know so i can only really speak to sort of what i've seen in those times i mean on a big picture like people i've worked for like talking a lot about how um how the fees have gone way down from when they from when nobody heard of supervision and now they're just sort of going lower and lower and lower but um so that's kind of interesting but i and i do think that like at this point it what i've sort of seen in my time is that um music really went from something that nobody knew about it to something that a lot of people really want to do and and so i think in that a couple things have been going on like also i've seen many more people want to be music supervisors than when i started and then there's just an explosion of sync companies alongside of like when i started which really honestly wasn't that long ago people were still sending cds to the to like the offices i worked for and like i was going through cds and pulling tracks off cds and now it's it's all digital and because sort of it kind of aligned with music supervision becoming much more visible sync becoming much more visible there are so many of these smaller sync companies that are like oh i know i know like five or six bands that have albums and can write music like i'm going to start a sync company so i've definitely seen an influx of sync companies of music of people wanting to be music supervisors um but i do think it's kind of interesting that there is still a lot of um confusion about what music supervisors actually do so and what has happened because music supervisor as a title has become so hot you know people will get djs or artists and they'll be like this person's music supervising this giant film and it's like okay well like ariana grande doesn't actually know how to music supervise. Like, I'm sure she's got music, and has, you know, undoubtedly relationships and, like, can certainly suggest songs, but, like, music supervision isn't just, like, picking the cool song for the cool moment and breaking the band. So I found it pretty interesting to sort of watch these influxes of people being interested in sync and people being interested in supervision, and yet this sort of persistent misunderstanding of just how, like, the sort of, like, the business and legal asks, like, we are not lawyers, but, like, there is sort of a very prominent business side to what we do, and that sort of, like, gets lost, I think, in the greater picture. And really, like, the biggest changes that I've seen have come in the last few years. Like, we... You know, we had a pandemic, a global pandemic, and then we had, you know, a year or two of things kind of, quote-unquote, going back to normal, and then last year we had two major strikes, the SAG-AFTRA strike and the RIDER strike, which shut down production for, I mean, the better part of a year, and it's still not back. Like, I think everybody really thought that the entertainment industry would bounce back the way it did. It did after the pandemic, and, because after that, like, once everybody could go back into production, like, fall 2020 into 2021, we were busier than ever. But it's, you know, it's an interesting time now because all of those things remain true. Supervision remains a very sexy career. Music remains, you know, very sexy on a PR level, but less and less content is where, you know, I hope it comes back the way it was. I feel very fortunate to have the projects that I have, but it's definitely, like, right now, the industry, there's a lot of, like, uncertainty about will it get back to where it was in terms of the content coming out, and my friends, all of my friends who work at, like, labels and publishers, they're sort of like, yeah, our overlords are like, isn't it back yet? Isn't it back? Where are all the sinks, guys? Like, where are all the placements? And they're having to report to their high-ups, like, it's just not back in the same way that it came back after the pandemic. So that's sort of, it is a, you know, it is a really interesting time right now for film, for TV, for, like, any jobs in film and TV. So that's kind of, like, the headline of, like, the long headline of sort of what I saw when I started versus sort of, like, what I saw when I started. I've been seeing the past couple years.
Speaker 1Well, you've done a hell of a lot since 2008, mate, I've got to say. You haven't been resting on your laurels.
Speaker 2I feel very, very grateful to have had the trajectory I have had. So, yes, it's been a busy time. Like, it feels like it's not that long, but then when I think back, I'm like, oh, yeah, like, we were burning CDs. We were burning, I had to, like, mail mix CDs to set across the country and, like, UPS them on my phone. And I had to learn that UPS didn't deliver on Saturdays in 2008. And so, yeah, that was all part of it. But it really wasn't that long ago, I guess. It feels like 100 years.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, no, it's not that long ago at all, man. And just look how much has changed. Look how much the terrain has changed in that time. I mean, streaming is the deal now. We're all doing it, but that didn't exist back then. And that wasn't that long ago, you know?
Speaker 2No. Streaming was not a thing. DVDs, it was all DVDs. Right, right.
Speaker 1But I'm assuming that, you know, that, like, the advent of Netflix and Amazon and it must be a safe job for you guys because there's so much content coming out now and there's so many different streaming platforms and they're all creating their own content. I would have thought that you guys would be pretty safe for work for the foreseeable future, I think. In an industry, more broadly speaking, the music industry, which is very uncertain in a lot of ways, this is one area, I think, which is probably safe for a while. Do you think that's safe to say?
Speaker 2I mean, gosh, it's hard to say right now because all the music industry is safe. All of those big companies, like, I think it did, especially, like, 2021, 2022, we were seeing big booms and, like, you know, a couple ways those, a couple ways those, like, the big streaming companies really changed things is that, like, prior to Netflix and Amazon and the streamers, there used to be, like, pilot seasons and summers would be slower. But once those really took off and content really took off, like, you're, you know, everyone is just busy year-round, which is really great in many ways, less great in that, like, vacations are nice sometimes. But, you know, now some of those companies are slowing down a little bit. Like, Netflix is a great example. I think that, like, you know, there was a really big boom and then now following the strikes, like, everybody, I think that the hope is that, like, like, all of those companies, it's, like, more of a rebuilding era. But it is, it has been interesting because, like, there is still going to be a lot of content. Like, there are so many streamers. People always want content. But it feels like it is changing in the sense that, like, Netflix in particular, I think, was really just outputting so much. And, you know, then they started canceling shows after one season. So, you know, that's the trick about being freelance is that, like, it's, especially on TV, like, we, it's great to work on a season, but then what if it gets canceled? Or, like, I, two years ago, I was so busy, but I felt like we were working on all these limited, you know, once we finished, I was like, oh, wow, oh, wow, all of these are limited series. So, that's one and done. Ten episodes and that's it. And now you have to go find the next. So, I mean, there is, you know, I don't mean to be doom and gloom. Like, there is still, like, Netflix is still making things. Amazon, all of those big streamers are, there's still content to be made. But I do think that in the wake of the strikes, like, there is a bit of a, the sense is in the air that, like, things are maybe changing a little bit. Like, there's, it's definitely an interesting time in entertainment in terms of, like, what content will look like going forward.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's interesting. Because there's a kind of a naive onlooker looking in from the outside. It does feel like we're living through the, you know, the boom times right now for the movies and TV shows because of streaming. But you're right. Yeah, I mean, it's a pain in the ass. You get hooked on a TV show or a series and then after, you know, the first season, it just never comes back. They just leave the whole thing hanging in the air and abandon a project. And that must be so frustrating. Well, it is, you know, certainly for the viewer, but for all of the talent that are involved, such as, you know, people like yourself and, you know, the script writers and the actors, and their production, and everyone involved in these things, to get halfway through a show and then for it to just be aborted, you know?
Speaker 2It's very true. It is a bummer when those things happen. I mean, like, then there was a lot of press last year about Warner Brothers films, like, shooting movies and then never putting them out. And then other shows being put on streaming and then taken off streaming. Like, it's been an interesting time. Like, I... Because what you're saying is correct. Like, it is... It is a bummer. Like, all of these people, all these creative people are really work super hard to put out a season of television and, like, put their all into creating something great and then it gets canceled. And I do not work at... I do not, like, you know, quite understand the higher-up power structures of all of these studios, but it is just undoubtedly a bummer to, like, just see great, great work just then not have any audience when we have all these streamers and you're like, oh, this should stream. Like, put it on. Put it on streaming. But there's tax things involved and complicated corporate things. But as an artist, it's just hard to watch, for sure.
Speaker 1What are your thoughts on the music industry more generally, more broadly? Because I'm seeing a lot more parallels here than I thought, actually. I mean, obviously, you know, there has been seismic shifts in the business over the last 20 years, some good, some bad. And I've, for the most part, been an ambassador for the new model. As an independent artist myself, it's given me and many others the freedom to make our own music with or without a deal. We can keep moving. We can put it out there, which is all great and empowering. Great for art, great for musicians. But the problem is, obviously, there's so much stuff now. You know, how the hell do you get heard above the noise? And also, there's a big issue with, you know, obviously, remuneration. How do artists get paid fairly for their work now that everything is kind of digitized and streamable? What are your thoughts from your vantage point, from where you're looking at things?
Speaker 2Gosh, I mean, it is really hard because all of that stuff is really true. Like, there is a lot of noise out there and there's a lot of music. It can go to anyone. I mean, I do think, like, sync is a great avenue for music to sort of, especially unsigned, who doesn't, you know, artists who don't have, like, a major label support behind, like, making them their priority artists or whatever. I think that sync is a great avenue for that. I mean, I think it's been really interesting to watch like the rise of vinyl. and like not like the more recent rise of vinyl and people getting very interested in it again and just like the album as an art form i mean if you know from my vantage point it's hard to not to not um to move past like the overwhelming nature of it just the amount of music and the amount of access that people have um to me to to the world to all of that um but um yeah like it is it is hard like i end up sitting in this interesting vantage point between music between artists and music and then filmmakers and people who for all intents and purposes are often like just like casual listeners to music or like or just like passionate music fans um who just happen to be directing a movie and so they're like very invested in it but you know the the the valuation of art and how do you how do you ensure artists are are what they're worth like that it's a really scary it's a really scary time i think for that idea i mean like that's really you know i won't i won't presume to know a ton about ai much beyond the fact that like my husband is a tv writer and they like that was a huge part of the um writer strike that happened last year so like i do think that you know the advent of ai there's you know a lot of great things ai can do but i think that the scariest part is is how it um how it really impacts artists whether that's like musicians or like like painters or or writers or anything like that and and it's like almost coming into a it's coming into a world that's kind of over the past few few years sort of like been primed not to value the thing itself like value like oh it's it's like it's an mp3 it's like a digital download it's easy like that's inexpensive whereas you know what what the casual people don't see it's like well that's like there's there's musicians and there's a recording studio and there's a producer and there's an engineer and there's a mixer and they're you know like that that that mp3 really is the result of a lot of a lot of people's work and um so you know we end up sort of sitting in in the middle of that where like we we kind of like fight battles a lot of like where a director might be like why is this cost so much like no one's heard of this band and we're like well like you know they should really you know this that's that doesn't matter that no one's heard of them like they should still get like this track so cost money to make and like we should really pay them something and not nothing and um so you know it's hard to know where to know where it's going but it's for me you know and and i don't feel like nearly educated enough to make guesses um on where that where what that direction is but i do sort of see enough that it's like it is it is a scary thing and it's something that like i sort of like think about a lot of like how do you how do we um continue to value art the way that it should be valued and whether that's like music or art or writing or whatever it is like that's kind of where the the the battlefront is right now and um ai is not making it easier so i don't know what the i don't know what the answer is but it's it's been frustrating to sort of watch like again yeah my husband's a tv writer so it's just like um but i don't think ai is going away so so it's like how do we um how do we protect protect the arts the way they should be protected so i don't have the answer to that but it's something that it's like definitely um definitely top of mind so um yeah let me know when you find the answer yeah yeah yeah no no it's fascinating
Speaker 1hearing your your insight on your side of the of it as well you know because um yeah as you say there aren't really any answers i don't think we don't we just don't know i mean because everything is so centered around technology now and that that um i don't think there's any answers i don't think there's any answers i don't think there's advances by the minute you know as soon as you've learned one thing it's changed again so it's like it's very difficult to know but i mean we are in interesting times i think you know a change probably is on the horizon and i think you're right to bring up ai i wasn't sure whether to open that pandora's box because we still don't know what form that's going to take yet do we but i think it's clearly going to be you know a main driver of the future but i do for someone that is generally quite a cynical nihilistic miserable bastard myself um
Speaker 2i do actually have you don't sound nihilistic at all you sound very optimistic at least very thoughtful i feel like i'm over here being the like fatalist like well like content is dying and ai is devaluing art and uh you know like let's battle for the souls of artists so in comparison you sound you're you're you're positively yeah you're you know positively optimistic over here
Speaker 1i think it's probably just because i've just finished writing my second book i just handed it to the publisher a few months ago and i do about a 50 page chapter where i'm just ranting about ai so i feel i feel a bit more relaxed about it now i've got it out of my system exactly yes i feel a bit more casual about it now but i feel like yeah maybe going through that process helped me to process a little bit of it in the sense that i do ultimately have faith in people's love of music i don't think that anything can stop that you know i think there's always going to be music and i think we'll always find new ways i mean even in the lockdown when we physically couldn't perform and musicians were going without you know their only revenue stream for for most artists we are we we found other ways we hit to live streaming or whatever the whatever met the means were we found a way to keep making it happen because it's like a life source in it people need it you know we need to play it and people need to hear it so i think i think you're right i think there are a lot of quite scary challenges on the horizon that will take a while to figure out but i think ultimately i think um i think music will probably prevail in some form i hope anyway yeah i mean i i do too
Speaker 2and i mean i i think art will prevail i think to your point that like you know there are things that people need to do and then there are things that people need to consume um and i i think that yeah i think that there will be a world where art like i think art will prevail in some way it's just a matter of like what what are the ways that like maybe it is like you know the the vinyl like live music will have a new resurgent because like that you know like i mean yes you can probably figure out an ai there's holograms like whatever but i do think that there is there is like an experience there is an experience part of that that like technology can only go so far in creating um and um it'll just be really interesting to see like you know it's always been interesting to me being in an artistic field like i've been in the music industry for a long time and i've been in the music industry for a long time so many people want to be in in the arts and it's i think for me i'm always just wondering like how sustained is how sustainable is that long term for people to be in as like viable like have a house have kids like you know like that that you know it's like i think art will prevail and i think that like people will you know people will make lives out of it but how many people will make life i don't i don't know i think about it a lot as in in my field watching the entertainment industry sort of doing this contracting thing that it seems to be doing right now hoping it kind of goes to an expansion period but then also just sort of like you know i do have kids and a house and a husband and i'm just like i need i can't you know live the way i lived at age 24 um to like spend all my time hustling in the way that i did at that age so it's like i think art i think art will prevail and i hope that it can be a viable living for as many people as possible if that makes sense 100 yeah no it's a great point and i feel like
Speaker 1there's a whole conversation here that could make another episode of the podcast you know because um yeah i totally share all of your thoughts and obviously as an artist a working artist myself i think about those things all of the time as well because i think it's it's a it's a it's a it's a it's like man how much longer can i be doing this you know what i mean yeah well let's move away from the scary stuff then speaking of writing books you're also a published author yourself you wrote the brilliant thinking in sync which is available from amazon and which covers a ton of really really useful stuff um for artists and content creators that they're interested um in the side of the industry that you work in it's a brilliant book which i will put the link to in the show notes so people can go straight there and check it out um how did you find the process of writing
Speaker 2um gosh you know i wrote it i put it out in 2019 kind of right before my son was born my first child and i started it even a few years before that and i mean you know to the point we've been talking about like so many people are interested in sync and pitching music and all that so you know we find you know my peers we find a lot of the same mistakes people do the same things they they whether they're just trying to get noticed or whether they're people we work with kind of forgetting about instrumentals or not including metadata or like any of those things you just it's such an influx you start seeing the same mistakes over and over and and like I just don't have time so for me it was ended up it was kind of cathartic in the process of writing it because it was like all the things that um you know either we get asked that on panels or that we just see and we can't respond to everybody even a fraction of the people um saying like I'm sorry but like you know who are you what is what do you have like is this a finished song is this demo all of that so it was sort of for me like trying to just write out all the things that frustrate me uh on a day-to-day basis so um and then trying to figure out how to position it so it was actually sort of helpful and like um and not like in in the middle of the day I was like I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it but I'm not sure I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it but I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it but I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it but I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it but I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it but I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it but I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it but I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it but I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it but I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it but I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it but I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it but I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it but I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it but
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Speaker 1I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do it but So I hope you guys take heed. You've got it direct from the source here as to what a music supervisor needs and what they most definitely don't. So stop just mindlessly spamming them. Do your research, get your metadata in order and appreciate the fact that being organized and doing your research and understanding a little bit about how this side of the industry works is just as important as how much your song kicks ass.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, like, have great music, of course. But, you know, I think, you know, some people just sort of, I get so many emails where it kind of just feels like people don't quite understand just how much music we get. So the emails are, like, very conversational and it's like, hey, I'm this person. What are you looking for right now? And I'm like, I don't know who are you. And I don't have time to respond to you. So, yeah, like, I mean, have your great music and just, like, send it. And some supervisors also, to go back to the point about, like, finding a great sync company, some supervisors, and certainly at studios, like, they cannot accept, like, unsolicited stuff. Like, we are very wary about it. So, like, really the best way is to try to really go after a sync company. And so, like, I cannot recommend that enough. And I think going, finding who is a trusted resource of supervisors, that's a much worthier use of your time than, yeah, to your point, spamming music supervisors. It's just, you got, because you do have to make awesome music. And, like, you're, like, as an artist, to the artist, you're an artist. And you should be making awesome music because that's what you're being called, you're, like, called to do. So, use your time wisely. And, you know, that time is, like, wise time spending is not, like, sending emails to music supervisors. Like, make your art and then, like, focus on sync companies. So, don't just, you don't have time to waste. You have too much art to make. So, you know, be smart about it.
Speaker 1Love it. Love it. That's going to be the clip I'm going to use for the promo.
Speaker 2Yeah, I was like, I feel like I'm on to something here.
Speaker 1Yeah. Man, you are on a roll. I'm loving it. I'm loving it. Everything is a snowflake. You know, you're dropping out all these truth bombs. It's brilliant, man. I can listen to it all day.
Speaker 2I try to not be a downer, but also helpful.
Speaker 1Well, you're making up for all the miserable stuff you were getting towards earlier with the AI and stuff. Thank you.
Speaker 2Okay, good. I'm glad to hear that, James.
Speaker 1Balance, you know, good bit of balance. Well, before I let you go, because I am going to let you go in the next minute, what's next for you? What have you got coming up? What are you working on? And can you, are you allowed to say even?
Speaker 2I think so. I mean, we have a really great slate of things coming up. You know, we work a lot with Ryan Murphy Television, who I've been very, very fortunate to work with for the past, I think, like five or six years now. And so, you know, right now we have American Horror Story airing. We, coming up, the remaining episodes are American Horror Stories. We are working on a new franchise series, anthology series for FX called American Horror Story. Okay. We're working on a new sports story, Gladiator, about Aaron Hernandez. And we're working on the new season of Monster, which is an anthology. Dahmer, the Jeffrey Dahmer story, was the first one for Netflix. And the next, the new season is going to be about the Menendez brothers. So we're working on that. And then we have 9-1-1 airing on ABC. And 9-1-1 Lone Star about to start airing in the next couple months. So we're, we're working on that. And then Big Mouth. I can't forget Big Mouth. You know, so that, that new season, the last season, we're working on that now. It won't come out until next year. But it's really incredible as well. So we feel like there's a lot going on. And, but yeah, like a lot of stuff won't be coming out until later in the year. But we are in the thick of it now.
Speaker 1Well, in that case, I think that's a perfect place for me to bow out and let you get on with your super busy schedule and your important work and doing what you do best. But Amanda, thank you. Thank you so, so much for taking time out to speak with us today. This has been really interesting, really insightful and really informative. And I know that all the musicians listening to this are going to be really grateful for you being so generous with the insights into how your side of the industry works. And we all appreciate you, man. So thanks again for stopping by and best wishes with everything you've got coming up. Long may you continue to prosper and thrive.
Speaker 2Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me, James. It was great talking. Hopefully, you know, I always want to try to, you know, help artists understand what we do a little more so we can help them have great careers as well. So it's great chatting and hope to talk to you soon.
Speaker 1100%, man. Now, like I said, we appreciate you for being, you know, one of the few people on your side of the industry that actually invites us artists backstage to have a little look at how, you know, your side of the industry works and to demystify it and to involve us a little bit. So thank you so much for everything you do. Not only being one of the most badass music supervisors in the game, but for being so generous with your insights and knowledge as well. So thank you so much. I will let you get on with it. Have an awesome day and we'll catch you soon. Thank you, Amanda. Me too. Bye. Bye-bye. Give it up for Amanda Creek Thomas, music supervisor extraordinaire. What an awesome human. To be so open and so generous with the insights of how her industry works, it's so beneficial for artists because there's so much mystery around the sync game. Like, I've been kicking around a long time in this industry now and I didn't know half that stuff. So, as you know, what I love about this podcast is when you get guests on, who are willing to be that open and honest and so giving with information that will benefit us in the artistic community and hopefully just make interesting, insightful listening for the rest of you. Unlike the rest of the guests that I have in this podcast, I am not going to shout out any links to Amanda's socials because I do not want her to get absolutely inundated and bombarded and harassed by all of the musicians listening, sending her their demos. But you will all doubtlessly be enjoying her work in some form or other, whether you know it or not, as she really has placed a lot of great music in a lot of great TV. So, let's hear it for Amanda Krieg-Thomas and thanks so much to you for listening as well. I hope you enjoyed it. As always, please do subscribe to the podcast, give it a share, give it a like, give it a rating, give it a review, do whatever you got to do and I will catch you guys really soon with another great guest and another great conversation. Love you loads. Take care of yourselves. Take care of each other. Catch you next time.
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