#682 - Bishop Robert Barron

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He's one of the leading voices in the Catholic faith today. He started Word on Fire Ministries, and he's written many books on theology. I'm so excited to sit down and have a conversation with Bishop Robert Barron. And I will find a song I've been singing since the old days Bishop Robert Barron, nice to see you. Thank you. Great to be here. Yeah, thank you so much for your time today. I'm delighted. You live in Minnesota. I do. Right, and you're a Catholic bishop from there. Right, so I'm the Bishop of the Diocese of Winona, Rochester, which is the southern part of Minnesota. I'm the Bishop of the Diocese of Winona, Rochester, and I live in Rochester right near the Mayo Clinic. I'm like five minutes away from there. Oh, nice. So you probably get to take a lot of visits to visit with children and their families and stuff like that? Yeah, I visit a lot of sick people there, and so it's probably the leading hospital in the world, and people come from all over the place there. Oh, and you're right there then. I'm right there. You should start a drive-through even. That'd be nice. Yeah. Just bless out the window maybe? I don't know. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, okay. That's one bad idea for me. You started Word on Fire Ministries? It's a media ministry, so it's an evangelical ministry to proclaim the Catholic faith, and I started just with a sermon show on the radio in Chicago 25 years ago, and it's grown now. We use all kinds of things in publishing and podcasting and films now, and so it's just been blessed, thank God. And how does somebody become a bishop? Well, you've got to be chosen by the Pope, so you really got nothing to do with it. I was the rector of the seminary in Chicago, so I was head of the seminary. And then one day, out of the blue, you get a phone call, and it came from this guy we call the Apostolic Nuncio, who's like the Vatican ambassador to the U.S. And he says, the Pope has appointed you auxiliary bishop of Los Angeles. That was my first bishop appointment. So that's like the NFL draft almost for Pope. Is it kind of like that energy, like you're waiting for this thing? No, because you're not waiting at all. You have no idea it's coming. It was a Sunday afternoon, and I'm lying on the couch watching golf. I have my shorts on and a T-shirt, and the phone rings. And it's this little Italian voice, saying, the Holy Father has appointed you. And then he says, do you accept? Did you think it was a scam or something? No, because I recognize, you know, his name and everything. Okay, so you knew, so you know about it. But you have no, you have no idea it's coming. Because if you're under consideration, no one tells you. It's not like, you know, oh, God, I might get it. You have zero idea. And so just like that, out of the blue, and not we're thinking about appointing you, it's he's already appointed you. Now, you can say no. You can say, look, I'm not going to do it. But unless you've got like a super good reason, you have to say yes to it. And then, you know, uproot your entire life, move away from everyone you know. I moved to L.A. Archdiocese, lived in Santa Barbara, which is pretty good, you know. But I had zero idea. And then four years later, or what, five years later, another phone call comes. Holy Father has appointed you bishop of Winona, Rochester, Minnesota. So off you go. So when the call comes, it's kind of like a call from God kind of coming, and you go and take it. Yes. Years, I used to preach to people, you know, your life's not about you. It's about God, what God wants. Unless you've got a really good reason, you follow God's will. So how could I then stand and say, no. I'm really happy where I am, and tell the Pope to forget it. So you kind of have to say yes. Yeah. Wow. That's a big surprise in somebody's life. Did you have a job before you were a bishop? Like, did you just work at somewhere regular? Well, when I was a kid, like when I was 16, I worked at a bookstore. I was like a stock boy in the bookstore. I worked at Steak and Shake for a while. I was a dishwasher. Go, dude. Yeah, but then I went to college, you know, and then entered the seminary, and then did those studies, and I became a priest when I was about 26. So I didn't have a big career, you know, before I became a priest. Yeah. What was the worst thing you didn't like about dishwashing? Oh, I hated dishwashing. Did you? The heat. No, I thought it was the most obnoxious job I had. I didn't last very long. I quit after a few months. Oh, dang. I hated it, yeah. I liked the bookstore job. I was 16, and I was like, you know, stock boy, and I was putting books on shelves. I didn't mind that job. Yeah, I worked at a bookstore when I went to college for a little while. I enjoyed it, too. Yeah. Because it's kind of peaceful in there, and somebody comes over. Sometimes people are just hiding from their spouse or whatever in there, but sometimes people are looking for a book. Oh, yeah. And you get to help them, and you just kind of start to learn inadvertently. Well, I'll tell you now. I discovered a book in that job called The Seventh Story Mountain by a guy named Thomas Merton. Seventh Story Mountain? The Seventh Story Mountain, which had a big impact on me. Merton was this guy, very talented, very accomplished. He was in New York, wanted to be a writer, knew all these famous people. And then long story short, he becomes a Catholic and then wants to become a Trappist monk, which is about as serious a monk as you can become, living in silence and prayer. And the book is the story of his conversion. The Seventh Story Mountain. Have you ever gotten to meet him? Oh, there it is. No, he died in 1968. And he died actually in Bangkok, Thailand. He was there for a conference, and he was electrocuted. Nuh-uh. He was electrocuted, yeah. He gave a speech, went back to his, he was like staying in this, right? Sort of like bungalow thing. And they found him with the standing fan lying on top of him. He had grabbed it, and it had a short or something, and it killed him. That's how Merton died, which is very ironic and strange. But he was a wonderful figure, and that book right there had a big impact on me when I was a kid. What about it? It's a story of a guy falling in love with God. And so he discovers God, and then it's, none of his instincts move that way. He wanted to be a writer. He wanted to be kind of a cool, you know, man of the world. And then he starts gradually falling in love with God. And it's told in almost like this romantic way. He was a poet, a very fine poet, actually. And the book, and I was 16 at the time, and so it kind of gets caught up in all that. And it's a very human story, and it's beautifully told, too. So that impacted me big time when I was about 16. Yeah, I've heard you talk about Thomas Merton before in some of your different podcasts and different lectures. Well, he was one of the great spiritual writers of the last century. So if you want to, you know, how to pray, how to approach prayer, what prayer is, how to live the spiritual life, he's a guy that you turn to. To get a little bit towards Catholicism. So Catholicism is a branch of Christianity. What's the difference of, like, being a Catholic and being a Christian? Well, I mean, of course a Catholic is a Christian, so you're, you know, a follower of Jesus Christ. We would maintain that the Catholic Church is the true church. It's founded by Jesus Christ. You get to the Reformation. You know, people that, you know, were quarreling with different aspects of Catholicism and broke off from it, so Lutherans and Calvinists and all the various sub-branches thereof. But, you know, we'd maintain that the Catholic Church has all the gifts that Christ wants his people to have, that it's the fullness of what Christ wanted. But then we recognize, you know, the Protestant churches, of course, have all kinds of gifts that Christ wants, too. But the Catholic Church, we would maintain, obviously, has the fullness of it. Understood. How would you define God? Well, probably the simplest way to say God is the creator of all things. Okay. So there's the world of things, right? The world we're in all the time. You and me in this place, and we go outside. The world of ordinary things, even the planet Jupiter and our galaxies is the world of things. But they don't explain themselves, right? Nothing in the world explains itself. It is, but doesn't have to be. So we look for causes. That's all of science, right? Looks for what caused this to be here. Why are you and I here right now? We can look for all kinds of reasons. How about those things? Do they have to be there? Well, no. They were caused by other things. Then we say, well, God is the uncaused cause. God is the first mover. God is the reason why there's anything at all. So what's cool about that is God is not a thing in the world. There's you and me and the planet Jupiter and God and the Empire State Building. No, no. That's the wrong way to think about it, right? So you might say he's the creator of all things, to put it in religious language. He's the ground of being, philosophers might say, right? And I would say, like, the reason why there's something rather than nothing, that's God. Interesting. That's the cool question that philosophers have asked. And some people just find it nonsensical. Others say it's the most important question of all. Why is there something rather than nothing? The answer to that question is God, I would say. How does God operate? Because you'll hear people will say stuff like, well, that's part of God's plan, right? But then if something happens, it's God's plan. then horrible happens, then they're like, well, God can help you through this, right? Like, does he cause bad things to happen or does he just there for us if something, no matter what happens? So he's the cause of all things, right? So God is responsible for all that exists in the world. You say, what about evil? Well, evil is not a thing. Evil is a lack of being. You remember in the Lord of the Rings, I don't know if you're a Lord of the Rings guy, but remember the Nazgul of these things that fly around and these dragons and everything? And they look so fearsome, but when they finally, like, they stab at them, the cloak falls away. And there's nothing there. That was Tolkien's way of saying this truth, that evil is frightening, but essentially it's a type of non-being. It's a lack of a good that ought to be there, like a cavity in a tooth. So the cavity, you say, man, it's real and it hurts. But the cavity itself is just an emptiness, right? Evil's like that, physical evil or moral evil. Moral evil is a lack of an integrity that ought to be there in your soul. So in that way, you can't— You can't say God's the cause of evil, because God is the cause of all being, right? So then you have to say, well, God permits evil. And that's true. He allows it to be. Now, why then pick up the book of Job? It's the best biblical wrestling with that, right? And God's great answer to Job when he's like, why am I suffering? Why is all this happening to me? And, you know, God says, where were you when I made the heavens and the earth? And where were you when I laid the foundations of the world? And where were you? You know everything. You tell me. In other words— Why God permits suffering, we can't really see. Sometimes we can in little ways, right? Where you say, gosh, if that hadn't happened to me, you know. Oh, yeah. Sometimes we can see it. But very often you can't. But that shouldn't surprise us, right? If God, who's the source of all existence, who's concerned about all of space and all of time, he's got a design for that, that I can't see it. Well, of course, duh. Of course I can't understand all of it. I accept that God permits evil to bring about some greater good. That's the classical answer to that question. But it's cool. You're pursuing it the right way, see, which is God is not the cause of evil, but he permits evil to allow for some greater good. I see. So you believe that in the end, it all ends good? In the end, it ends according to God's design. And God is love, right? And so to love is to will the good of the other. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So that's what God wants. God wants the good of the other. But how precisely it all works out, I don't really know. But, you know, St. Paul, all things work together for the good for those who love the Lord. That's it. That's the right sort of theological vision. How do I best start, like, my relationship with God, would you suggest, to somebody who's, like, maybe has felt God, that feels like God exists in the world? Like, I mean, I've felt that for sure. I've always thought that God existed, but only recently have I started to think, or to feel more of a relationship. Yeah. How do you suggest that someone starts to kind of begin their relationship with God? You know what Thomas Merton said? Someone asked him that question. He said, take the time. In other words, dedicate some time every day to God. So, like, I begin every day with what I call Holy Hour, which is made popular, by the way, by this fellow, Fulton Sheen. Does that name ring a bell? Fulton Sheen. Bring him up. Fulton Sheen. Bring him up. Because we're about to. We're about to beatify him, just in a few days, in fact. Really? There he is. That's the last step before canonization, become a saint, right? So, Fulton Sheen was this great mid-20th century figure, a teacher, writer. He was one of the first to use radio and TV. Oh, he's beatiful. So, we're beatifying him just in a few weeks. And what does beatifying mean, just so we know? Well, it's the last step before canonization, which is sainthood. But, like, beatus in Latin means happy. Okay. So, like, you know, we say the beatific vision, that's heaven. It means happiness, that when I look at this thing, it makes me happy. Okay. That's heaven, the beatific vision. So, a beatus would be a happy person, right? Because he's so ordered to God. So, did he have to work really hard to be happy, probably? He was a pretty happy guy, Sheen. Okay. Like, by temperament, he was. So, a little insider trading, kind of. Right. Yeah. But what he gave us, which I really love, is he called the holy hour, which is every day, as a Catholic, spend an hour in front of the Blessed Sacrament. So, you know, we believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. And so, every morning, that's what I do. I go to my chapel in my house, and I pray for an hour. And it could be, like, we have a thing called the office that a priest has to pray. It's psalms and canticles and things from the Bible and readings and stuff. But you can also pray the rosary, which I do. You can also just sit in silence. There's this one saint, they said, what do you do when you're looking at the Blessed Sacrament? And he said, I look at him, and he looks at me. And that's pretty good, that you sit in silence, you know. In a meditative state. It's almost, it's meditative. Right. And so, we call that mental prayer sometimes in the Catholic tradition. But I would recommend that is take, and it might not be an hour, maybe you have to build up to that, but even take five minutes to focus on the Lord. Now, it might be you're going to read something from the Scripture, which is great. It might be if you're Catholic, you pray the rosary or pray a decade of the rosary. That just kind of focuses your mind. You know, the Buddhists have this thing, the monkey mind, they talk about. The monkey mind is jumping around from branch to branch. Well, that's the way most of us live, or like you wake up at three o'clock in the morning, and your monkey mind is kicked in, and you're thinking about, and they talk about calming the monkey mind, right? Merton, in fact, who understood Buddhism very well, thought that prayers like the rosary have that effect, you know, because all you do, you repeat the, you know, "Hail Mary, full of grace, Lord is with thee, blessed art thou. Hail Mary, full of grace." "Lord is with thee, Hail Mary, full of grace." A mantra. It's like a mantra. It's a Catholic mantra. And what that does, many things, but it calms and focuses the soul, right? That's the great thing about prayer, and I'd recommend to you or anybody, take the time and find a way to get, you know, focused on the Lord. That's a good starting place. And how honest do you have to be with God? Well, see, the thing is, with God, God knows everything anyway, because He's the source of existence. So, if you're not being honest, if you're being secretive, He already— But what's the point? And that's what I mean. But it feels like there's some point to us, you know what I'm saying? Like, it feels like, or there's a fear to do it or something. Yes, but see, it's stupid. It's a stupid thing, because God knows everything already. So, what are you keeping from Him? Or if you feel like, "I can just say these very kind of exalted, pious things to God," look at the Bible. Look at the Psalms, for example. The Psalms are filled with people angry at God, and they're exalting, they're praising God. They're frustrated. They're tearing their hair out. Oh, yeah. It's PG-13 over there, for sure. Right. That's how you should pray. So, why not be honest with God about everything, about your sins? He knows them anyway. So, I think praying with honesty is super important. But a lot of religious people, we kind of deceive ourselves and think, "Well, okay, I won't mention that to God, so it should be okay." Yeah. But then when you're keeping a—when you have a secret, though, that's where, like, it feels like the devil can get in, you know? Yes. When you have kind of like a seed of distrust. Because He's the father of lies. He is, right? Is He? Yes. That's one of the titles of the devil. What the heck? I don't even know that. Yeah. And that's actually really good, interesting. He's the murderer from the beginning, but He's also the father of lies. Oh, "murderer from the beginning" is way worse, I think. But definitely, that's definitely additional charges. But they're related. Because when Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." Yeah. See, when you get on beam with Him, you're on beam with what's truest about you, but also about all of reality. The devil's favorite move, therefore, is to lie, deceive. Distract. Oh, that's not really true. And how often, when we're not in touch with reality, we get so unhappy. And that's not an accident. Getting someone on the beam of truth is getting them on the beam of Christ, I would say. Because He announced Himself as the truth. Yes. Sometimes I'll pray, and it's like I would want to keep things. Now I'm trying to be very specific, you know? Because I don't want it anymore. I don't want something to be. like, just mine, if that makes any sense. I'll say more about that. Especially if it's bad. Yeah. Like, if I feel like it's bad, or it's like a sin, or something I've done that's wrong, or something I've been thinking about, or something I'm afraid of, it's like, I don't want to just keep it to myself, because I can't handle it. Yes. And look, see, from a Catholic standpoint, the beauty of confession, that we have the sacrament. You know, Jordan Peterson said this one time, "To go before a representative of God, and to admit your failure, and your weakness, and your sin, and to seek the grace of God to do better." He said, I can't imagine anything psychologically healthier than that. Wow. And he was talking about Catholic confession, you know, because it gets portrayed times like, oh, this, you know, weird thing, you go into this box, and you mutter your sins to a priest. Well, that's a caricature. It's standing before the Lord, as someone who represents Him, because we're not angels, you know what I mean? We have bodies. That's why the sacraments are physical, and why you. Actually, speak to somebody. But you're. He's a representative of God in that way. And you're telling God. He's a representative of God. The priest, let's say, if you go into confession. Oh, Cassie was saying. And you go to the priest, and you confess your sins, you're speaking to God, really, and saying, "Lord, I want to be honest with you. This is what's wrong with me right now. I'm not okay. I'm not doing well. And here's why." And then you seek the grace of God. That's beautiful. Because, see, the father of lies would love it. if we just never ever admit that. Oh, no, I'm fine. I'm okay, and you're okay. We're all doing great. Don't tell me I've done anything wrong. That's all a lie. And in confession, that's the beauty of it. I'm admitting how off-kilter I am, you know? And then I'm asking for grace. That's a beautiful thing. There's confession. Oh, that's pretty cool. Yeah, but you know, the way most Catholics now go to confession would be face-to-face. I mean, you just sit down with the priest like the way we are. Oh, really? You can still go behind the screen and all. That's up to the individual. When I first started going to confession as a kid, it would have been, you know, behind the screens like that. But you can have this kind of direct conversation, too. How has God shown grace in your life, do you feel like, personally, if you don't mind if I ask? Well, no, I mean, like— Just so we can even talk about it, because I think about it a lot, you know? There's nothing—when I think about that, there's nothing—there's nothing like—that's one of the strongest thoughts that I have sometimes, is just how much grace God's shown. Right. In my own life. Yeah, I'm a big Bob Dylan guy. I don't know if you know that, but I love Bob Dylan. During his Christian period, he's got this song, I look around this whole world, and all that I'm finding is the saving grace that's over me. And that's the way religious people, in their more ecstatic moments, talk. Because that's what it means. Grace just means free gift. Well, what's a free gift is my being, because I don't have to exist. There's nothing necessary about me. So the fact that I am and that I'm alive, that's a grace. Now you can start to name within that all kinds of particular things. You know where I was this morning? It's our own existence is a grace. Yes, because you don't have to be. See, God does—God is perfectly happy without the world. That's a very important theological truth. God does not need the world. He does not need anything outside of himself. Really? Yes, because God is perfect. God is the sheer act of existence. God is perfect in every way. So then he must have created it with a purpose, then. And the only purpose that we can identify is not a needy purpose. But God needs nothing. Therefore, whatever he does is done out of purest love. Because Thomas Aquinas, along with Bob Dylan, my other great hero, Thomas Aquinas, this great medieval theologian, right? He says that to love is to will the good of the other. And when you think about that, that's a really rare, weird thing. So let me say it again. To love is to will the good of the other. Of the other as other. Wait, to will the good of the other as other. I'm kind of intensifying it to make the point. So let's say I'm nice to you, that you might be nice to me. So that's the way most of us sinners operate. So I'll be kind to you as long as you're kind to me. The minute you get obnoxious to me, I'm going to be obnoxious to you. That's the way most of us operate most of the time, because we're doing it out of some kind of need. I'm not really willing your good. Now, love— But you're hoping that something good will come out of it, that I'll get something for me. It'll redound to my benefit. Okay, understood. But see, and it's beautiful when it happens, and it does happen in the world, when a parent or a spouse or whoever— Right, they have to love you because they just want you to be okay. They just want your good. Or think of, you know, in a Catholic setting, we always go to the martyrs. I don't know if you know the same Maximilian Kolbe. Does that ring a bell? Oh, is he a— He was a great saint during the Nazi period. He was a prisoner in Auschwitz, right? And he was an opponent of the Nazis. He was an opponent of Hitler, so Hitler arrested him. He's a Franciscan friar. There he is. And he's got the Auschwitz garb on there. Because the Nazis had a thing where if someone escaped from the barracks, they'd bring everybody out into the yard, and they would pick 10 at random and then starve them to death. It was like this horrible thing. Just if someone escaped? Right. As a payment. Right. So someone escaped from his barracks, and they brought the people out, and they picked out 10. He was not one of them. But this one man— Fell to his knees and started crying, and he said, I'm a husband. I'm a father. Please. So Kolbe stepped out of line, and he just said, I'm a Catholic priest. Take me in his place. And Kolbe barely knew this guy. He's in the barracks with him, I guess, but barely knew him. And so they starved him to death. Wow. And it was John Paul II who knew that story from his time in Poland and kind of brought it to the attention of the world. But now that's love, see? The willing— The good of the other. What was in it for him? What was in it for Kolbe? Yeah. And so, see, it's like— It's unbelievable. It's like a black hole. You know, a black hole will draw everything into itself, right? That's what most of our souls are like. We want to draw the world in. Love is breaking the gravitational pull of the black hole of the ego and saying, I really want what's good for you. And in a while, we say, see, God is love. That's what God is. He doesn't need anything. Yeah. He can't do anything out of self-interest. So my existence, our being in this room, is itself an expression of love. It has to be. So then the trick is, as you get closer to God, you become more conformed to that, which is why the saints are so weird. That's why the saints are so weird to us, because they're not operating in this ordinary sphere. So we talk about, like, supernatural virtue. That's Kolbe. That's all. They're all the saints. They have supernatural, because they're very close to the way God is. So the greatest thing that we can do is try to love in a completely, like, selfless way. Right. And it's not easy. And that's why, see, it requires prayer. I can't really will myself into that state. I have to kind of be open to God's grace transforming me. And prayer helps that. Yes. You might say it's the only way, because, like, you know, Aristotle or Plato would have said these virtues, like, you know, courage and prudence and justice, you can kind of practice your way to them. Okay. But the theological virtues, faith, hope, and love, see, that's why they're theological. I can't really practice my way. I can just say, Lord, make me like this. Bring me into line with your way of being. And it's kind of a miracle when it happens. Yeah. Sometimes I notice, like, if I'm having trouble with something, and I don't even think that I want to, like, sometimes I'll want to do it. I don't want to do it. I want something, but I won't want to do it. Yeah. Does that make any sense to you? The good that I would do is that that I don't do. St. Paul says that, Romans 7, right? So, yeah, my brother was saying that I should ask for the willingness to do it sometimes. Yeah. Like, sometimes it's like a little bit of, like, a crack in the door. Like, if I can't, like, if I don't have the power to do it myself, maybe sometimes I can pray just to ask God for willingness. Like, God, even just make me willing to try this. Yes. Maybe the Holy Spirit's kind of led us to Merton that way, because one of, Thomas Merton's famous prayers begins, my Lord God, I have no idea where I'm going. It's a great way to start a prayer. Like, I don't know. But one of the things in there is, and the fact that I think I'm doing well doesn't mean I'm actually doing so. But I believe the desire to please you does in fact please you. And may I have that desire in all that I do. That's a cool prayer. See, he's lost. I don't know where I'm going. And I don't even know if I'm doing your will. But I don't know where I'm going. The desire to please you, in fact, pleases you. So let me have that anyway. That's a good way to pray. I'll be honest that in the past, I was hesitant to invest. I felt like I didn't know enough or maybe I was too late. I wasn't timing things right. The truth is that so many of us only focus on where our money is today. Acorns is the financial wellness app that cares about where your money is going tomorrow. Acorns is a smart way to give your money a chance to grow. It's easy. 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It's funny we're at a time where like you were talking about like or you just mentioned lost like being actually kind of lost and and what a prayer to say that yeah I'm lost like God I am lost right like to give to allow possibility in your life because if you're lost then you need something right um you just mentioned being kind of lost right it's interesting that we're in a time where we have so many things that help us have like direction right like we have gps we have like map quest we have ways we have everything we had everything you could need to help us like direct we have all this technology we have so many things right we have so much like material we have so much like we have storage facilities people are storing attics are full right right people are some people have two or three purses some women and some men but what I'm saying is we have so much stuff but yet like it feels like we're at a spot where uh we're missing something that we just can't purchase anymore right when it comes to does that make any sense does it make sense to you like we're missing something that's like not on a shelf somewhere right which is why we're casting about so desperately desperately and why it feels desperate. That's what it's gotten to. It's starting to feel desperate. And I think some of it has to do with like a sense of purpose, maybe. I'm not sure. No, yeah. Cause we've lost the sense of like ultimate purpose or spiritual purpose. And so when you lose that, the Bible would describe that as being an exile. You wandered into the desert. You're away from the sources of life. St. Augustine said, you're in the land of dissimilitude because we're made in the lightness of God. Right. But I've wandered into the land where I'm not like God. And so. Yeah, it's a Costco. I'm in Costco. And so I'm just sort of lost. And so the idea is when Jesus says, I am the way, follow me. I'm the way you get your bearings. I give these sermons a lot to kids for confirmation. As a bishop, he confirmed, he's like teenagers, you know? So I give the sermon and I use the example of ways a lot. You know, I trust in ways. I got this voice, I got this kind of. English voice on mine. And he's a calm guy. Just tells me, you know, where to go, where to turn. And I kind of surrendered to him because, yeah, I'm driving all over the place. I was better when I was a kid. I knew better where I was going now, but I just kind of trust in the voice of ways. And I said, but that's like the voice of your conscience, the voice of God that we have to learn how to trust it again. And I would say the Bible, teaching of the church in the liturgy, in great preaching, in someone like Merton or Fulton Sheen, or there are lots of ways to find your direction. And then, see, Jesus says about all of us Christians, you're the light of the world. You're the city on the hill. See, the city on the hill was like a GPS. If you're in ancient times and you're wandering around, oh, the city. Oh, yeah, I got to go just, you know, kind of just west of that city. So it was the way I found my direction. Well, that's us. We're supposed to be that now for other people, that we followers of Jesus are meant to be a signal to the rest of the world. But if we're as lost as they are, and the Lord says, if salt is lost, it's savor, you know, and you don't put a light under a bushel basket, but that's what a lot of us have done. We're as lost as everybody else. Sometimes it also feels like, Bishop, that it's being organized that way by like darker entities in society. Do you feel like that that could be true, that like evil operates like that? Because it really feels like that more than ever, I think. Yes. The Bible knows about personal sin, right? So there's individuals, you and I, we're sinners. I'm lost. I'm a sinner. But it also knows about, you know, kind of structural, institutional sin. But then behind all of that, it knows about, I would say, a properly spiritual dimension, that there's a spiritual world that's also fallen and that compromises the institutional and the personal level. There's all those dimensions of evil. I think we get naive in a way, oh, it's just personal evil. It's just something that we sinners do. Yeah, that's true. But behind us are institutions that condition us, and behind them, there are fallen spiritual powers, I would say. And we got to deal with all of them. We got to, you know, Paul says, you know, we battle not just with flesh and blood, but powers and principalities. That's still true, it seems to me. Did Christianity ever have like a military, or was that even a thing? Well, there were military orders, like around the time of the, you know, crusades and stuff, like the Knights Templar, and they were like religious orders. It had kind of a military dimension, you know, because they were trying to defend the Holy Land and all that. But we tend not to do that today. You got the Knights of Malta. There's certain things that are kind of a holdover from that time, but we're not like going around with, you know, machine guns and stuff. Got it. There's the Knights Templar. The Knights Templar were wealthy. Oh, that's varsity, too. Look at them. The Knights Templar were a wealthy and powerful Catholic military order of warrior monks founded in 1118 during the Crusades. Mm-hmm. Their mission formed to protect Christian pilgrims traveling to Jerusalem and sacred sites from violent attacks. Wow, so when Christians traveled to go to Jerusalem, the Knights Templar would kind of escort them or make sure that they got there safely? That was the idea, yeah. Why were they attacked so much? Oh, it's a complicated story. There were some, you know, there were charges of corruption, of financial corruption, other things. It's a little bit murky, and I don't know the history all that well, but they were eventually suppressed, you know. But it's like most human things end up going bad. Yeah. Some kind of corruption set in there, but I think at its best, it was doing a very valuable thing. Yeah, most human things kind of end up going bad in some ways. Do you think, like, sometimes I get stuck in this space where it's like, like, I want, like, you know, I want to go to heaven. I want to have, like, happiness after. Like, I want to earn the possibility to, I don't even know if it's earn is the right word. But I want to have the opportunity to have a life past this, past this one here. But also, part of me wants this, like, you want to win in this world as well. Does that make any sense? It's like, it's like you want to see, like, humanity win, right? Yeah. But does that really even matter if the goal is to, is to have an eternal life and to, is earn the right word? Is that the right word? No, I wouldn't use earn, but it's a both and, see. But does it make sense what I'm asking you? Yeah. But it's like, I don't want to, I don't want to lose here on earth. Not as a person, but just as a species or as like, sometimes it's even as like America or as like good, good versus evil. It's like, I don't want good to lose here on earth. You know, you want to try and service that as well as you can, but it seems like the more important thing is this, is this greater good that comes with salvation. Does that make sense? Yes. And, and they're both true. See, contrast Chris biblical religion with, let's say Plato and go out to Plato or these, these other figures that felt the body, this natural world was kind of a fallen world. It was low level. The idea was to escape from it. So Plato says the whole point of philosophy is like a prison break to get out of the prison of the body. That's not the Bible. The Bible doesn't hold to that at all. So God makes the world, everything in it, including insects. So he makes the world, everything in it, including insects. And he finds the ensemble of it very good. That's a radical thing though, in the Bible. See, because so many dualistic systems would say like spirit, good, matter, bad, heaven, good, earth, bad, get out of earth to get to heaven. The Bible affirms the earth. It affirms the human project, right? And then it doesn't want so much escape from the earth. It wants a new heavens and a new earth. That's a different game. See, God doesn't give up on what he's made. He wants to lift it up and transfigure it and bring it to a higher pitch. Or like, you know, Jesus says, may your will be done on earth as in heaven. He wants to bring heaven and earth together. That's the goal. And see, we believe in the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. It doesn't mean, oh, yeah, Jesus died and his soul, thank God, went up to heaven. That's not it at all. He walked in the room and he ate in front of them. He said, touch, touch my wounds. Risen from the dead, yes. Conqueror of death, yes. But in his body, right? So we look forward, like the creeds say, not to the escape of the soul from the body. We look forward to the resurrection of the body. So see, that's to your point. That means God doesn't give up on the world. He doesn't give up on the human project. He wants us to strive to make this world as beautiful and just and good as possible in the hopes of now attaining this transformation. Or think of the scene of the transfiguration of Jesus when the clothes become dazzling white and all that. He doesn't go up somewhere else. He allows them to see his transfigured person. That's the biblical thing. So it's both and, right? It's both and. What do you think is something that— There's a transfiguration. Oh, yeah. Show it. Let me see. And is that one particular famous piece of art or is that— Well, that's the Raphael one on the right there. The screen I'm looking at. There's a lot of different—but the Raphael is probably the most famous one. But see, it's the bodilyness of it. That's what I would emphasize. So many spiritualities are kind of down on the body, down on the world, get out of the world. That's not biblical religion. Got it. We like the body. The body's good. But it's part-time. Not really. No. I look forward to the resurrection of the body. But think about this, too. So you're saying our body will come back? Yeah. Well, see, this body's part-time. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. This body's part-time. Right. But I mean— I mean, like, how many of the cells in my body did I have—I don't know, the scientists will tell me—four years ago? Nothing. My whole body's been replaced, right? But the form of me, the basic pattern of me remains, right? Well, I think something similar—we talk about the resurrected body. I'll die. I'll go into the ground. But God remembers the great pattern of me and can reconstitute, just as it's happening now in nature. I'm getting reconstituted. Physically, all the time. That's a good point. So can it happen in this sort of transfigured way in heaven? Paul talks about the spiritual body. And you say, well, what's he talking about? But I think he's gesturing toward this. It's a body, but it's not like just this ordinary body. It's a spiritualized body. And he sensed that in the resurrection of Jesus. One of the toughest things that I hear people talk about—like, we're in a lot of, like, kind of like a—I don't want to say like a me time. Yeah. But it's like we've all kind of— We've all kind of, like, we're inundated with ourselves, right? Yeah. And people— people spend less time connected, you know, even though like technology has us hypothetically more connected, but they spend less time connected. And then a lot of people feel alone, right? Like even if they're not even alone, sometimes there's this just feeling of being alone. Why is it, is being alone a sin? Is it a sin to be alone? It's not good for a man to be alone, the Bible says, right? So, I mean, from the beginning, see, because God is a family. We'd say God is father, son, spirit. God is not just- Yeah, he's a triple dipper. He's not a monolith. There's like something familial, there's something communitarian about God. And so he wants us to have that same kind of thing. See, I think what happens is when you forget about God, you lose your connection to everybody else. See, you and I, we just met today for the first time, but see, we're connected. We are, I'll use a technical term. We are ontological saints. Because it means we're brothers at the level of being. Because right now, we're both coming forth from God's creative intention. So if you go to the very depth of my own being, I'm going to find the depth of your being. See, and that's why we're like our- And that's because why we're both here talking about it and learning together? No, because we're both creatures. We're both here because God is willing us to be here. And he's breathing us right now into, I see. So that, that alone, that birth in a way is something that we have in common. Yeah. We rarely ever even talk about that. Right. And see, when you pray, so in prayer, again, Thomas Merton says, it's finding the place in you where you are here and now being created by God. That's what prayer, it means. So if I, in prayer, find that place, I found that same place in you and the same place in everybody else. And that's why St. Francis can say, brother, son, and sister, moon. It's not just whistling Dixie. I mean, that's a, that's a very accurate statement. Oh, yeah. The sun is my brother. The moon is my sister because we're all coming forth from the same creative source. And see, that happens in prayer. Yeah. The stitch is the same. That lowest stitch is the same. Right. But now you stop praying or you say, I don't care. I hate church. I'm going to forget about God. I'm going to live for myself. You've lost that now. You've lost contact with that point. And so of course we now live in antagonism. Okay. So if we're all connected, then what's a way to stay as tapped into that connectivity as possible? Love one another as I have loved you. So Jesus says to his disciples, I've loved you. I willed your good and you found your commonality in me. Okay. Now you love each other as I have loved you. In second Corinthians, Paul says, God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. Okay. There's the whole purpose of Christ. See, we wandered into the land of unlikeness. We're lost. We're in the desert, whatever metaphor you want. But now in Christ, God has reconciled us to himself. But then Paul says, now you become ambassadors of Christ. Now you become reconcilers. That's the saints then. That's their job. The divided societies, because there aren't enough of us. We're not light. We're not salt. We're not the city on the hill. And we're not doing our work of reconciliation. We're not doing our work of reconciliation. We're not doing our work of reconciling. You know, you know, it's you, the Amish hat behind you there, right? The Amish kid that was on your show. Oh yeah. Timothy. I love that. Um, who's from my diocese. He's from my area in Minnesota, Lanesboro. Oh, nice. Uh, yeah. He's one of a kind. I want to have him back in. Cause I hope I'm, I'm scared that he's going away from, I don't know. I just, there's a fear that I have that it's like he got a little too tempted, a little too tempted out there. I mean, there he is at fricking Hooters. I didn't see that. You know? And I don't think the Lord's at Hooters. No, but I don't know about this particular Amish kid, but, uh, the Amish, but I don't know that, but the Amish are, they're beautiful examples of what I'm talking about. You know, these stories about, uh, you know, a guy goes crazy and he, and he killed these kids in an Amish school. Right. And the, you think the community would just be so lividly angry with him. And these Amish people went to the home of the guy's widow. Like they kill these kids and kill themselves. They went that night to the home of the guy's widow. And they killed these kids and killed themselves. And they went that night to the home of the widow to comfort her. And then they went to the, to the, his trial or something to show their support. That's, see, that's Christianity. That's, that's grace breaking out. That's God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. They were acting as ambassadors of Christ in that regard. Because they were looking at someone else's pain over theirs. Yeah. Right. They were willing to go to the other, even if it meant enormous struggle for them. So that's what we're supposed to do. See, Christianity is not just about God. It's never meant to be my little relationship with the Lord. And, you know, so I go to church and I feel good about my prayers. Fine. As a starting point. But the whole point of it is now go, you're an ambassador of Christ. And if the world's lost its way, we Christians have got to take some responsibility. Like, no, that's our job is to, is to say Christ is the way. And let me show you. It feels like the world has lost its way. It feels like, I don't know if it feels like people have all the time, but it feels like the world has lost its way. And it feels like the world has lost its way. And it feels like the, like these darker powers and like corporations, like greed has overtaken things, you know? Um, I mean, you're just seeing things that are so painful in the world right now. Um, and I, and maybe they've always been there, right? Maybe they're more like in our hand these days. Cause we can see them on our phones and we can see them on social media, but, um, it feels like we've just gotten, like, it doesn't feel like we as humans, it has been like an organized, like strategy against us to like, like, like get to like the down to the cell, like even with the algorithms and how your phone is watching you and how it's like an, an, uh, surveillance state that we're entering allegedly in some places. It seems like the devil is like, I mean, he's like in way heavily invested in a tech, you know, he loves it, but it's like, what do we do? Like, and I, and you can't like turn back the time of the world, really. It's like, you can romanticize the past and I'll do that a lot, but it's like, um, like, I guess it's just like, yeah, what do we do? Cause it doesn't feel like we're not trying and maybe we aren't at times, but it does feel like the sword against us has been sharpened with a sharpener that, that we couldn't even fathom existed. Yeah. Yeah, it does. And I, that spooks me too. Cause I do think it's a favorite tool of the dark powers, the technology, you know, one way is just how mean that world is when you enter the world of social media and you know, that meanness has always been there and now it appears publicly in a way that's damaging people. And I know from a lot of studies in my own pastoral work, young people, especially young women are getting damaged like crazy on social media, just the negativity and the judgmentalism and, you know, the, you know, um, yeah, the dark powers love using that, you know, what do we do? Like, what do you do as someone who believes in like a good, right? Even, even if they're even someone who may not even have the strongest faith in God, right. Or in a specific, uh, branch of religion, but who just believes in like a moral good, you know? Right. It's just like, yeah, but see, that's a very important point, actually, the belief in a moral good, because if I can quote another hero of mine, G.K. Chesterton, do you know that name? G.K.? G.K. Chesterton. Hmm. A great English writer dies 1936, I think. But he said this a hundred years ago, he said, men today have lost, there he is, men today have lost their way. Nothing surprising that men have always lost their way. The difference is today they've lost their address. See, we've always wandered into a bad path, but at least we kind of knew where we're supposed to be going. And he saw a hundred years ago, it's truer like mad today that we've lost our address. Like, well, where am I even going? Where am I supposed to be going? And see, we live in what I call the culture of self-invention. I invent myself through my own freedom, right? I decide who I am, what my values are. Don't you tell me. I won't tell you. We'll just tolerate each other, but I will decide my whole life. It is a recipe for disaster, depression, everything else. That's the black hole. Everything's drawn into me, right? What makes life worth living, I think, is when these great things happen. And I think that's why I'm here. They could be aesthetic values, like a song. Like when I first heard Like a Rolling Stone by Bob Dylan, that's a song that changed my life. It wasn't the first song I liked. That was Sugar, Sugar by the Archies. Remember that song? Sugar, sugar, bam, bam, bam, bam. So I'm a little kid. I'm nine years old, and I thought that was the coolest song, right? I liked that song. But Bob Dylan, Like a Rolling Stone, I was, what, 17 or so when I heard that. Like a Rolling Stone, yeah. That changed my life, that song. That's, I'll put it philosophically, that was an objective aesthetic value that drew me out of myself, that changed my subjectivity. So you're saying that something you found on the outside of you brought, kind of rearranged how you operated. Yes, exactly. Now, like Merton's Seven Story Mountain was a book like that. Thomas Aquinas, my other great hero, who I discovered around that time. These were these objective, beautiful things. I remember when I was a high school kid, and together in the class, we're reading out loud about Romeo and Juliet, right? I mean, I understood about, four percent of it yeah dude it's not even that great well right but but my reaction when i first the notebooks better i think but go on when i first read it was like man that that such a thing should exist i i just thought was like a miracle like this thing in its complexity and the and the and the beauty of the language and the it it just sort of it flummoxed me yeah you're right or or the first time i heard um like beethoven's ninth symphony of the ode to joy symphony i mean like if you were to say hey i really like that what a stupid response yeah it was so stupidly inadequate to it because it doesn't even do its service because it changes you see if you say oh i like that i'm still kind of you know calling the shots right but really great values the saints now in the moral order when you you like the story of colby when you hear that story you're like what i can't even get my mind around that right so those are the things that make life worth living what i'm i'm against is this self-invention thing of like oh no no don't tell me what to think or do i will decide bore me to death with that bore me to death with that kind of autonomy what would be the appropriate response then of something that you heard of like you know i'm saying what would be a response that was less autonomous to it would be what we call aesthetic arrest you know you're stopped you're stopped in your tracks and and you let that thing do its work on you right and then you become a missionary of it which is happening right now because even though those things i'm talking about bob dylan and beethoven and shakespeare all hit me when i was a kid but right now you hear me i i'm a missionary i i'm i'm announcing them because like wow i just finished a film on the gothic cathedrals i was trying to explain why was the whole world so so captivated by the notre dame fire a couple years ago remember the whole world was like oh my god and i and i thought it's not just because oh this nice old building is burning down people sensed in that cathedral like something of enormous value was being lost so i told i did this film that's meant to tell that story of why those buildings are so remarkable and powerful so so stop see aesthetic arrest stop you shut up stop thinking stop stop it's not about judging it's not about you right let that thing judge you right um and then it will rework you and then send you on mission that's how it works i think is pornography causing a problem in your life do you find yourself watching porno for longer periods of time and having trouble stopping is porn affecting your relationship or dating life well you're certainly not alone watching pornography has become so commonplace today and oftentimes men use porn to numb the pain of loneliness boredom anxiety and depression shame and stigma prevent men from talking about these issues and getting help for them i want to introduce you to my friend steve steve is the founder of valor recovery a program to help men overcome porn abuse and sexual compulsivity he is a long-term sexual recovery member and has personally overcame the emotional and spiritual despair of abusing pornography and has dedicated his life to empowering men to do the same steve is an amazing person and he is a close friend of mine i mean that valor recovery helps men to develop the tools necessary to have a healthier sex life their coaches are in long-term recovery and will be your partner mentor and spiritual guide to transcend these problematic behaviors to learn more about valor recovery please visit them at www.valorrecoverycoaching.com or email them at admin at valor recovery coaching.com thank you so you're saying just finding things to honor is that sort of exactly what you're saying there or finding things that move you yeah well they find you that's my experience and not not taking some sort of like oh i like that or this or that just honoring what it is let and i think there have been teachers of the great value see who who have been affected by them and now can present them to people in a powerful way i had this great professor at notre dame university i'm a kid and he was showing us his art history class showing us images from you know the tradition but he loved the gothic churches and it was the first time i saw like the rose window at notre dame like and so he was someone who'd been affected by that and then he communicated it to me um so we need teachers that know how to do that well i think one of the one of the things that we run into is so much there's not as much um oration amongst communities and stuff as much anymore it used to be the way you got a story was you had to go and hear it from the source and it used to be like when i was growing up it was like dude you gotta meet so and so yeah wait till you hear but wait till you hear the story right so it had this like there was a more opportunity for lore and and um and there was more opportunity for like advertising and build up of like a story or a person or something right if you want to learn about like how to make something i don't have to travel to the guy in my town that makes it and sit there with him and develop an apprentice and be an apprentice right yeah we're not much in apprenticing where i can go watch a youtube video of something and there's still an apprenticeship i'm watching someone yeah do it but there's a human there's a but the lack of humanity there i think i don't think we know the total value loss of that human connection yes of sharing a story or a skill um or a mindset or belief yeah um i think that i don't think that we've come to like a place that we can calculate the loss of that because it feels like there's um that we're not doing something together yes no there's a lot right what you're saying there the machines give us data and we're great at that and that's it has a huge thing i use you know the siri every day and hey siri what about this and i can get data information but you're talking about seemingly much deeper which is pattern and meaning and for pattern and meaning siri can't give that to us the machines can't give that to us you need you're exactly right the the lore and the narrativity of a community see that brings me right back to something else that's really missing the uh initiation rituals of primal peoples and this is true across the cultures go all over the world in primal peoples of a young man let's say he's got to be ripped out of his comfort area so that the men of the tribe or the city of the town will go take the kid out from his home all right and then they'll scarify him usually like something on the cheek or they'll knock a tooth out or circumcise him or something and the idea of that was that third one's a real i'll take one of the first two yeah i'll take the tooth i mean somebody got me for the third i don't i'm not and i'm still going to catch the guy who did it but uh yeah well yeah anyway let's carry on but it's just it's meant to say life is life is hard i mean life's gonna gonna knock you around and so you're saying that like young men they used they would extract them from sort of their comfort zone yeah and they would um and mark their body somehow okay like to say okay remind them life is hard expect it don't say life to be easy i see so it's an educational right got it and but then see to your point they would then take the lore of the tribe now you need to know the history of this tribe this thing goes way beyond you way before you it was here long before you'll be here long after you then the last step was almost invariably bring the kid to the edge of like jungle or tundra or whatever it was give him a few simple supplies go survive you know and come back only when the sacred has communicated to now that's super healthy that move see it got someone it's been a long time i mean it's been a long time i mean it's been a long time i mean it's been a long time i mean it's been a long time i mean it's been a long time i mean it's been a long time uh and you're meant to find meaning in this realm way beyond what you can imagine and only when all those things have happened can you come back to the tribe and be of any use to us yeah if you're stuck at home at the attitude of a 14 year old you will not be of any use to this tribe i think we have tons of uninitiated people they've not been brought through that process of an and you used to do that's a great statement dude i'm sorry i don't know and that that feels like something man yeah it feels like um i don't know it feels like we're all just capable of so much more right like i know we can do so much more in some ways but there's a part of us that's capable of so much more that is like wilting yeah no right and that's the whole point of it is to bring a kid through that so that he can make a real contribution so how would we like what is kind of a modern day like like is there a way to do that now like and yeah i think this is not to put you on the spot i mean but no no religion used to preside over this see that's the whole thing religions presided over this this process oh i didn't realize that sure i mean go back to primal peoples there's always like in a religious context right so you're taking them out there and you're also sharing the lore i think the lore is so important man like i don't i mean like this is sad to say it's like i don't even know that much of my family lineage you know yeah like i don't even like i don't even a lot of times like yesterday was one of the first times i told my dad hello like when i was praying you know Like, not that that's where you can communicate with them, but I felt like kind of like the portal was open. So I told him, hello, my friend's sister just passed away. And I was like, hey, look out for my buddy's sister, you know? In heaven, maybe, yeah. Yeah, but I just like, like, I think there was definitely this bigger connection between cultures and their ancestors and the existence beyond us. And I'm really honestly just speaking somewhat for myself, you know? And some of it's not any fault of mine. Some of it is in things that were brought upon me. But it's, like, things that maybe I could incorporate when I had my own family and stuff. But I do think it's things that I think were, like, that there could be some lack of in our society today. This is many years ago. Now, my niece, she's now, like, in her mid-30s. When she was, like, around 20, she and her classmates, they took them up, like, somewhere in northern Wisconsin and made them live outside in the woods for several days. They had, like, kayaks, and they were up and down rivers. And they really put them. They really put them through it, right? And I remember this kid. She came home and was telling me about this with such enthusiasm. And at that point, she was, like, a late teenager and kind of bored by everything. But, man, she came alive talking about that experience. And, see, there's at least an overtone of the initiation ritual stuff with that. You've got to go through something tough and challenging and gets you out of your self-regard. See, self-regard. Everything's about me. How does it affect me? Is it's the other regard? Because, see, that's love, willing the good of the other. But you've got to be drawn out of that. How did the church used to do that? Well, there's a little remnant of this thing. We stopped doing this after Vatican II, but confirmation, right? So it was one of the sacraments. And usually given around the coming-of-age time, right? So in my diocese, when the kids were 15, there was a moment when the bishop would give the kid a little slap across the face. Well, that's the imitation of the scarification or the knocking a tooth out, you know? So it's meant to say life is tough. Put the Lord in it. Put the Lord in his cheeks, you know? Yeah. That's what you get. You know what I'm saying? Or some physical reminder. Right. It was physical. No, I think we did it as a culture better, you know, that we realized that we go. Now, see, right, there's the bishop like me confirming a kid. So we put the chrism oil on the forehead. But in the old days, they would also slap them. Yeah, I've been using a batana oil sometimes on my scalp at night. That's not chrism oil, though. Yeah, no, it's not. It's not ordained. I know that. It's just on the shelf or whatever. You know that right in the middle there, that's Cardinal George, who was of Chicago. No, go up with the red vestments on there. Right there. That's the pope? No, he was the archbishop of Chicago. No. Who is that? That's the archbishop of Chicago. But I lived with him for about six years. Really? Yeah. Y'all were roommates? Not roommates. No, but I lived in the same house with him. And he was kind of a mentor to me, kind of a hero to me. Oh, that's beautiful. Let's say his name again. What is it? Cardinal Francis George. Cardinal. Of Chicago. Was he the real deal? Yeah, he was a very serious guy, very smart, understood everything we've been talking about. He understood the spiritual power of the church, and he was a real student of the culture. So he knew what was going wrong with our culture. He was very insightful about that. Yeah, it feels like there's bigger entities. How do we—I know you kind of touched on, I feel like, how we battle that. But at what point is there a riot? An uprising about, like, at what point do you feel like there's, like, as a group, if we're kind of all, like, connected, if there's some connection, maybe? Because I think sometimes I'm amazed that there hasn't been more, like, revolution. Are you amazed at that at all? Just based on where things are, kind of, and, like—because it's gotten pretty scary, you know? It's like we're at a place where— We should be spiritual revolutionaries, and that's true. I don't want, like, political revolution carries with it. Yeah, I'm not saying political. But, see, but the church—here's something interesting to me. You know, when the Lord says to Peter, okay, if you're Peter upon this rock, I'll build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it, right? Right. Now, all of my life, I would say, I heard that statement. I took it to mean, oh, yeah, hell's coming after us, and they're not going to prevail, right? We're going to be able to hang in there. But that's completely backward. The gates of hell will not prevail against you. Well, see, if you were attacking a city in the ancient world, if you attacked the gates, that was the weakest place. So the image is not we're defending ourselves against the onslaught of hell. No, no. We're going after you. We're going after the powers of darkness, and we're going at your gates because it's the weakest place, and we're going to break in, and we're going to conquer you. And so the church is a militant organization in that sense. We don't use the weapons of the world, but we're battling the dark powers. We've lost our confidence. We've lost our sense of purpose. We're armed with the great weapons that Paul talks about, right? Yeah, because sometimes it feels like the church doesn't have any balls. I know. Yes, and that's the problem. And I don't mean that offensively. No, no. And you're absolutely right. We should be on the march against the dark powers. Now, here's something. Because if you guys aren't, like if the church isn't, then what is going to be? Right. And if the salt loses its savor, who's going to make it salty again? And if you put the light under a bushel basket, and we've done a lot of that by kind of accommodating to the culture of losing our edge. Here's something the saints always said about the devil. The one thing in us the devil can't manipulate is humility. See, the devil is marked by pride above all. Pride means self-regard. Me, me, me, right? So the devil can use anything in me. He can use my strength. He can use my ambition. He can use whatever. But the one thing he can't use is my humility. It just frustrates him. Because it's not. It's not something he would do. Right. He doesn't know what to do with it. It's completely repugnant to his way of being. So if I'm humble, that means I'm letting go of my ego. I'm letting God direct me. And the devil cannot mess with that. He cannot mess with it. But say you're so humble. You're so accepting, right? You just keep accepting and accepting and accepting. And then there's, and then. No, but it's a position of power, real humility. Because it means. So give me an example. Maybe. But does it make sense? Does it make sense? Because I'm just trying to make sure that I make sense. Yeah. Because sometimes I don't know, to be honest with you. And so I'm trying to make sure that it makes sense to you. So when I say that it feels like it's just like, okay. Like acquiescence or giving up. Yes. If you're acquiescing to everything, it's just like, if that is the humility, then that feels like. Like surrender. It feels like, yeah. It's not that. It would be you're humble before God. You've let go of your own pretensions, your own ego, your own plans and purposes so that God can work. In you. So now you've unleashed enormous power into the world. Think of the great saints. They're not little, you know, mewling, mealy mouth, you know, people. They're full of confidence and a sense of purpose because it's God's purpose, not their own. And then they, boy, they radiate power all over. And that's what the devil can't use. He can't use humility in that sense. Are we, are we so addicted to self, though? That do you. Think like, cause we're pretty far down the line in some ways of, um, really trapped in our own selves. It's like, we're all our own businesses and we're all, it's like, you know, we're, I would say we're pretty far down the line with self. Yeah. Um, do you think that we are so far down that we can't, that, that switch can't be flipped? Like we've, like we're so far, like we're like looking in a mirror of ourselves, looking in a mirror. Like, are we too far down? Like the narcissus reflection in the pond to be able to get back to some space of humility? Because this is what it feels like. I feel like sometimes you feel like, okay, this is what God would want me to do. And it feels like you run into like, well, what will other people think of that? Right. You know, or how will that be perceived? Right. You have to let go of that or you won't be getting done. Or what if nobody, uh. Like follows me or agrees with me. I think those are a lot of the fears that come up. Now that's the whole spiritual struggle in a way. See, I'm so held captive by my fears or by my addictions. See, sin is always an addiction, right? Because sin, capital S, is putting something other than God at the center of your life. Okay. So it could be, it's wealth, pleasure, power, honor, family, country, anything other than God. If I make it central, I will become addicted to it because. I want God, right? That's what my heart wants. And so I'm going to try to find God in money. Well, no matter how much money I make, it's not going to be enough. It can't be. It's not God. Or, you know, my, my life is all about my family. Great. But if your family is, is God, it's not going to satisfy you. Now power. If it's power, it's not going to satisfy you. And before you know it, you're going to become addicted to these things. Right. Breaking free of addictions and breaking free of fears. Then you're at the point of Maximilian Kolbe. Then you can say, I'm a Catholic priest. Take me. Right. Now that's an extreme case. That's a martyr. Yeah. But, but see, on a smaller scale, that's true of all of us. I would say this to you. You do what you discern God wants you to do. And don't worry about the rest. I had a teacher around high school. Good guy. Mr. Stark. He was our religion teacher. He came in one day and he had this glass, this glass. It's just plain water, right? a word, he took this little eyedropper and put one little drop of blue in it, and then proceeded to teach the class, never referred to it. And finished the class, 45 minutes, and then he said, do you see this water up here? And by that time, it was all blue, right? Even like dark blue. And he said, that was from one drop. And then he said, that's the influence of a saint. And that's always stayed in my mind. I think that's right. You know, that a saint, which means someone doing God's will, can have this enormous transformative effect. And so, do what God calls you to do, and don't worry about it. You'll be that one drop of water that will make this huge difference. And that's for everyone. Yeah. And gosh, if everyone did that, you'd transform the world. I think people are trying. I think it's just tough because it feels like the people that own the water Right. Like, come over and say, nah, no more blue water. But the gates of hell will not prevail against us. So if we have that confidence, you know. Right. In the end, you have to believe that there's, you have to believe in good at the end. Because there's no other way to operate that is like, that gives you any reward. Right? Does that make sense to you? Like, you have to believe that, like, even if everything points to like, no, you have to just have hope and keep going. I believe the desire to please you does in fact please you, Merton says. So, as long as I have that desire, all right, and I just follow it, and just do it what it prompts you to do, and God will make it happen. You know, so in a way, you want to pull back from the world and just think about you, what God's calling you to do. Yeah. And you know, people, I have this online ministry, so a lot of times people will write in and, you know, look, Bishop, I'm depressed, I'm just, I'm in terrible shape, I'm so unhappy, what do I do? Because I don't know these people, and I don't want to be giving big advice to people I don't know. For sure. Sure. But the one I feel confident giving, and I do, I'll say, perform every day the simplest act of love. And they know what I mean by that, to will the good of the other. And it might be, it's a note to somebody, it's a kind word, it's a smile. Because in it, in that very act, you're pulled out of yourself. Yeah. You know, Jordan Peterson has said, he's right about this, that self-consciousness and misery are identical. See, that's the point we've been talking about all day today, is the more I turn inward, that makes me miserable. What are the best moments in a day, without exception, when I'm least aware of myself, and I'm lost in something? Whether it's, you know, it's Willie Nelson, or it's Romeo and Juliet, or it's the Shark Cathedral, or it's Indiana Fever, I like, or it's this conversation, what draws you out of yourself, that's what gives you joy. See, which is why the spiritual life, it's always like on a razor's edge, you know? I, I become happy when I'm least preoccupied with me. And boom. Oh, yeah. All of religious practice, all of it, is simply meant to affect that change, right? Yes. That's the whole purpose of it. Understood. Yeah, some of my most favorite moments are thinking about somebody else. Yes. You know? And you become truly happier and better. Oh, yeah. In that measure. Well, I just end up feeling better. Feeling better, right. Dude, you get, I've gotten so, there's times I've been so sick of myself, like. Right. I work, and then you have to see video of myself, and then I have to edit sometimes, and I'm like, here, God, like. Right. You know? So, sometimes I wake, if I wake up and I'm thinking about somebody else, the first thought in my head is somebody else. Yeah. It literally feels like the greatest thing. It feels like the most, like, the best ice cream, a flavor they don't even have that nobody else can get. Right, because if, put it in theological terms, you are at that moment in, in tune with God. Yeah. God is love. And so the simplest act of love puts you in tune with God. And therefore, it makes you happy. Yeah. It does, man. And it gets, I will say this, dude, I, it starts to get a little bit addicting. In a, but it's positive. In a good way. Yeah. Yes. Thinking about other people. Yes. And like, wishing other people well and stuff like that. Yes. You feel like a little, a little hallmark section. Absolutely. Well, you know, another spiritual hero of mine is Therese of Lisieux. Don't let anybody chance. She's very popular in the Catholic world. Therese of Lisieux. Therese of Lisieux. Lisieux. Lisieux is a little town in northwestern France, and she was a nun who joined the convent when she was 15. She died at 24. She lived there for nine years. Lived like, in a worldly sense, a nothing life, right? But she wrote a little book called The Story of a Soul, which has been massively popular all over the world. Most Catholic churches, almost anywhere in the world, you'll find a statue of the little flower. That's her nickname, the little flower. St. Therese. There we go. Yeah, there she is. Oh, maybe I could get a piece of art of her. There she is. Yeah. Oh. Anyway, her book, The Story of a Soul, and she has a spiritual path that's called The Little Way. Got it. What's The Little Way? It's at every moment of the day, find the path of love. So at every moment, no matter what condition you're in, there's an opportunity for love. Do it. That's The Little Way. So, like, right now, what's the path of love? And see, I would say, well, the path of love right now is talking to you. Yeah. I think, willing the good of the other. I think you're willing my good. Yeah. This is the path of love. So, good. That's stay on that. Amen. And at every moment, there's an opportunity for it. What most of us sinners do is we choose the opposite. We'll say, no, I'll go through my day choosing the opposite of love. Which is why I'm miserable. What's the fear, then? Because you're not going to have something if you, you know, it's like a fear. Yeah. There's a lot of fear attached to it. Yes. Not going to have enough time to do the things I need to do. Yep. Which is why we put in front of our eyes as Christians, Jesus crucified. See, because you know the Buddhist thing? The Buddhist thing. Invite your fears in for tea. Do you know about that? It's a spiritual practice where you say, okay, what am I afraid of? I'm afraid of failure. I'm afraid of, you know, this is not going to go well. I'm afraid that person doesn't like me anymore. I'm afraid of getting sick. I'm afraid of dying. Okay. So, now imagine you're inviting them all in for tea. And you're going, okay, there's my fear of death. There's my fear of failure. Welcome. And you serve tea to them all. And what that exercise accomplishes is it detaches you from your fears. You realize, okay, but I'm, I'm not my fear of death. And I, I'm something else. Well, put that in Christian terms, it's detachment spirituality. I'm, I'm detached from both my success and my failure, right? Whether, that's Ignatius of Loyola, whether I have a long life or a short life, I don't care. Whether I'm successful or a failure, I don't really care. I'm, I'm living in a space where I'm detached from any of the goods of the world. That's spiritual maturity. That's been a very hard to do. See, but, and that gives you freedom, though. Yes. Now I'm, I'm free. Oh, yeah, you're, the binds aren't there then. Right. And then you operate like at a, I mean, you're on a different plane then if you can do that. And then you can accomplish God's purpose. See, he, he can now work with free people. Is the trouble is he, we're, we sinners are all addicts. We're all addicted. And we're all, at best, we're in like treatment programs for types of addiction. That's what religion is. It's kind of like a treatment program for addiction. If we can get free of our addictions, then God can use us, right? Um, speaking of addiction, like, there's a lot of, uh, you know, pornography is such a huge thing in the world these days. Um, and it's such a tool that's used really, I believe, to like tear apart the American family and just families around the world. And I shouldn't say the American family, I'm sorry, but families everywhere. You know, you're taking away like, um, you're kind of hijacking people's lust and their love really a lot of times, you know? Um, we've had people want to talk about, uh, that run porn addiction recovery centers and stuff like that. I feel like it's, to me, it feels like it's one of the biggest problems that's going on out there. Um, has the church spoken out like against it? Do you guys feel some sort of responsibility like to speak out against it? Like, um, and what do we do there? Because like there's evil people that are just, that are using this horrible stuff to ruin us. Yes. And it's working. Yeah. No, I quit. Sorry, I got aggressive, but I think it just makes me so angry. No, I totally agree with you. So, like, you know, like my generation, I mean, thank God we didn't get addicted the way young people are now because you couldn't get pornography the way, I mean, a 10-year-old could get hardcore pornography on his, on his cell phone. Oh, I had to have a buddy sketch me a little something for the weekend. You give him a couple bucks. No, it was not easy. You know? And you get a return fee, too, if you returned it. I kept mine. But, yeah, so it was a different time. But thank God, see, we didn't get addicted the same way. But, man, today, and, you know, I worked, in seminary work, with these, you know, young people, almost everybody to some degree is addicted to pornography. Oh, so many of my friends. But what happens is you watch pornography, and you see it, and they make, they specifically make things, it's like father, child, you know what I'm saying? They make evil scenarios. It's the most evil, and it's gotten more evil. It used to be like, nice person meets, you know, meets other nice person. Like, it started out, I think, kind of like, slightly, maybe realistic, you know? Yeah, but see, it has to do that, though, because it's got to get ever more, you know, titillating, and ever more different, and that's not enough anymore. But it even attacked, like, the family, you know, it's like, dad, daughter, you know, it's like, mother, stepson, it's like, it's just like, I don't know, but it's so engineered. It's like, what do we do? Like, why can't, if Christianity is so strong, and it's so many people, why can't it eliminate that from, like, being allowed to be played in our country, or whatever? And I know, but the problem is that Christians have often lost their edge or lost their sense of challenge to the culture. You know, we've acquiesced to a lot of the culture. We put the light under the bushel basket. I gave a talk this couple years ago. We had this big Eucharistic Congress gathering in Indianapolis, and I spoke to like 50,000 people. And I said, you know, if every Christian in this country started living according to what we call the evangelical councils, you know, like the great recommendations given by the Lord, we'd change the country overnight, you know, if we could harness the power of Christians. But we've lost our edge to a degree. And you're right. This is a major area, though, because it's drawing young people into really bad addictive patterns, and it's hurting their brain. Chemistry is getting affected. Yeah, I mean, I've certainly been down that road myself. So I'm not like, I'm also not separating myself from anybody that, you know, I've gone to like different recovery, like, you know, meetings for it that my buddy runs. So it's like, I've certainly been affected. By it. You know, I don't feel like I feel like I'm like, I've certainly gotten into a better place because I have a lot more awareness now. But yeah, I've seen the way that it's affected my own life. And it's absolutely yeah, the way it's just because it takes away the way that you look at a woman, it takes away the look that the way that you then like, look at your spouse or your girlfriend, or even as other women that are involved in your life and circle. Yeah. No, like the sexual lives of married couples are getting dysfunction. Oh, yeah. Pornography. Well, just hijacks the connection. And it's like, like, dude, we are we hardly have any connection. And then it's like, but it's like, yeah, when does like, is the church strong enough? Is the because the Catholic Church is the largest group in the world, isn't it? Yeah. Well, the largest. I kind of write the I'm the largest Christian denomination. Got it. Yeah. Yeah, just like, yeah, like, I don't know what to like. I'm not I don't know if I'm I hope I don't sound like I'm preaching at you. Do I know? Okay. I'm just bummed out about it. And I don't know what to do. And I think it's like, I guess I'm asking a power that seems greater than myself. Like what? And I know that's not just you, like you have total control over everyone and their behaviors. But I'm asking like, yeah, how do you like, but how do we get it out of our like, you would think if something gross came into our or something that was causing a lot of harm came into our world with the sheer number of people that we could get rid of it. Yeah. I mean, I think there does have to be some kind of government intervention when it comes to pornography, there should be some greater control. Yeah, people have access to it. It's way too easy, especially for young people to access it. And I think it is a real blight upon society. And yeah, I think there there should be more government intervention. The church has indeed spoken out against it. We've issued things as the bishops of America about pornography and different ways of addressing it and helping people with it. But I think it's got it's reached the point where the government's got to get involved. Yeah, you know, yeah, it's heartbreaking, kind of, but you know, the thing is, no one should feel fully, not kind of it's heartbreaking, fully. Yeah. But going in, I didn't mean, you didn't feel like I made you feel uncomfortable about it. Did you? No. Okay, good. No, no. I mean, because we're all coping with this. We're all here in the world. But also that no one should ever feel self righteous. Because as I say, all sin is an addiction. Everyone's addicted to something. Oh, yeah. You know, there's a story about St. Augustine, the great, you know, Augustine, author of the confessions and all this. He's, he's very ambitious guy, right? And he wants to be speechwriter for the Roman emperor. And he gets the job. And he's so excited. And he's being carried on a litter, right, to the site where one of his speeches, the emperor is going to give and he's so excited. And on the way, he sees this, this hopelessly drunk guy just carrying on and, you know, and Augustine, like, Oh, look at this poor slob, this, you know, addict. And then it occurred to him, he said, Yeah, but tomorrow, he'll be sober, and I will still be drunk on ambition. And it was like this, moment of illumination for Augustine, with all of his sophistication, and I'm such a, he said, I'm a worse addict than that guy. So I mean, all of us sinners, we're all hooked on something. Oh, yeah. And, yeah, I've been hooked on a couple of those things. Yeah. Working, thinking that work would solve things. Drugs, porno, trying to think of what else that might be it, probably. And most of those I'm in recovery for, or I just don't do anymore. Or I'm not doing anymore. So that's been good. But like, but yeah, there's a lot out there. You know, there's a lot of things that can get us addicted out there. Again, speaking from a Christian standpoint, when you put up the crucified Jesus, it's such a weird thing. And I'm always trying to convince people, realize how deeply weird it is that we put up in our churches. If someone came like in a time machine from the ancient, from Roman world, and they walked in a room and they said, Oh, this is a religious gathering. And they see this guy on a cross. And they're like, Oh, this is a Christian. And they're like, Oh, they say, what is a man with you people? That's like the grossest thing. And this poor slob being put to death on this miserable instrument of torture. So why do we do it? Right. Why do we do it? Well, because you look at Jesus on the cross and you say, okay, he's got no wealth. He's got no pleasure. He's got no power. He's got no honor. He's a disgrace to his family. He's being mocked. It's like every single thing that we want or that we're afraid of, there it is. And he's got, he's got like none of it. All of our fears are on full display. Yeah. There. And yet, and in that, right. And it's stripped naked. Like he's got nothing. And he says, father, forgive them. And into your hands, I commend my spirit. He's someone utterly at that moment ordered to God. See, that's what's so weirdly powerful about the cross. It's a stripping away, see, of all of our addictions, all of our illusions. What's the point of it? It's a stripping away, see, of all of our illusions. That line, W.H. Auden, the great poet, we'd rather be ruined than changed. We'd rather die in our dread than mount the cross of the moment and let our illusions die. That's Auden, a great Christian poet. Say that last part. We'd rather mount the cross of the moment than let our illusions die. We'd rather be ruined than changed. The cross of the moment, like we have to mount our own cross. Right. Right. That we're, we have to be stripped of these things. You know, go back to the very beginning of our conversation about evil. Why would God allow this? Well, see, evil, you might say in a superficial way, like, oh yeah, I was stripped of this thing that I really want. That could be the best thing. That could be exactly what God wants. He wants to strip you of your addiction to this thing. You know, so that's mounting the cross of the moment and letting our illusions die. Yeah. It's like, like, like if you were brave enough, if I don't, if I don't mount the cross of the moment, right. If I don't saddle up and say, okay, this is it. Then I just, I just get to live in the comfort of this hypothetical idea of, of how things could have gone because there's comfort in not taking risks. Right. Right. There's a demand there and there's a stripping bear that God wants you to do and you're not going to do it. Yeah. I'd rather be ruined than changed. Yeah. He's calling you to a spiritual change. That's, that's conversion in Jesus, metanoia in his, in the Greek of the new Testament, going beyond the mind you have. That's what that means. Metanoia. That's scary. Yes. Right. It is very, because we all have a mindset in place and Jesus always is saying, metanoiate, you got to get beyond the mind you have and to reach the point of the little flower, right. Love every moment or of Maximilian Kolbe. Boy, that's, that is a major metanoia. That's going way beyond the mind that you have. Uh, because the mind we have is an addictive mind. It's self-regarding, it's self-important, self-protecting. Think of all the energy most of us sinners every day go through, putting walls around ourselves for protection, mounting attacks against our enemies. See, but all of that is living in, in, um, the land of unlikeness. Right. It's miserable. Yes. And it's miserable. What we'll see religion is all about joy. Jesus says that I've come that you might have life and have it to the full. I've come that you might have joy and that your joy will be complete. That's what we're here for. Yeah. You know? And, uh, um, yeah, when I was running, like when I was like in a relationship that I was cheating all the time, it was miserable. I was always worried. I was always concerned. I was always sick of like my behavior and I was just like the lies and just like, it was always a nightmare. Right. And it's funny. Like, the church has been saying that forever. It's been, it's been warning against that like forever, but what's the move of the fallen mind of the church puritanical hung up on sex. Give me a break. And, you know, you're caught in the middle ages. No, no, no. It's telling a truth that you discovered through experience. Right. Yeah. The church has been saying that forever. You know, the Bible knew that truth forever. One of the biggest ways that, uh, like pornography and different addictions and stuff keep us down is shame. You know, why does God allow us to have shame or how does God view shame or how do you see that? Yeah. Well, shame, shame is not bad. Think of Adam and Eve, right? So they, they cover themselves and they feel shame in the presence of God. That's a healthy reaction. If shame is, it is, if you're shamed in the presence of God, I mean, if you're feeling shame in front of somebody else, but it might, that might be stupid. It might be for the wrong reason, or it might be misplaced. I'm seeing like deep shame, you know, like you're just so ashamed of yourself. Yes. See, but that's liberating. If, if in the presence of God, you feel ashamed of what you've said or done, good. That's God's way of trying to, you know, that's why I like the conscience. John Henry Newman another hero of mine John Henry Newman John Henry Newman Cardinal Newman I just named him a saint a while ago congrats there he is yeah congrats John Henry Newman he referred to the conscience yeah there he is as the aboriginal vicar of Christ in the soul the the representative of Christ in the soul is your conscience so when your conscience says to you oh man come on that was bad that's terrible and you feel ashamed that's Christ speaking to you when the conscience he says like rewards you and it does the conscience says hey good yeah with with good feeling you're rewarded pay attention to it that that's the vicar of Christ in the soul that's the voice of Christ in the soul let's pivot a little bit I wanted to talk real quick about like just some interesting things from the catholic church from just like history they used to have the things called indulgences yeah can you tell me a little bit about that like uh it's just so it's just like funny to me I just learned about it the other day my friend Mr. Tommy was telling me about it yeah and we still talk about indulgences it would be you know in the treasury of Christ so we say that Christ you know won for us salvation and by his great act of self-sacrifice there's a kind of treasury in heaven and that we can call upon that you know on behalf of people that we love and we can pray and we can um benefiting from that someone can um grow closer to God and we can pray and we can offer to God someone can to put it crudely you know get time off of purgatory it's just a way of saying that lessening our our punishment it's calling upon the the treasury of Christ let's say is it a true thing because someone said you could like bail your wife out of purgatory or something like that or bail your cousin out the problem is the time of the reformation when people were selling indulgences yeah so the church does not that smile upon that now that was being done in the middle ages where people would you know for this amount of money I will sell you an indulgence tent out of purgatory you know for 60 years or something because that's crazy because then I'm guessing probably those guys would hit you up and be like hey your brother's been in purgatory for like 11 months you're gonna right get him out or what you know like so he was abused because it became something that depended upon you know people started taking advantage of it right and it should not be something that's bought or sold so got it in itself it's a legitimate thing but not to be buying or selling um there's a lot of talk these days about like in the Middle East like of there's like a genocide going on there's like a lot of like you know conflict in the Middle East like is the is the Israel that we see that gets talked about in the Bible is it the same is like the as the government of Israel that's running the country no that's there now no that's important like how does the church view that kind of yeah or do they even have a view on it yeah I mean I'd sum it up this way that the church recognizes the right of the state of Israel to exist so the churches and the popes have affirmed that you know over the last several decades but it's important to make that distinction you just did there's biblical Israel then there's the modern political state of Israel and there are two different things um which means you know a Catholic can certainly be critical of of the government policies of the state of Israel as we would have any other government yeah sure um Israel see functions very uh powerfully and symbolically in the Bible promised land right so there's the promised land that was promised to the ancient Israelites but it becomes in Christ now land of heaven so the new Israel we might say is the church and the church as itself a sign of heaven you know so it's very important to make that distinction between Israel using the Bible and then the modern state of Israel so it's not the same group no no secondly the church has been adamant against all forms of anti-Semitism so go back the pope's over the last many decades been really strong on that the pope's visits to Jerusalem the pope visiting synagogues and all that so we're against anti-Semitism understood um there's been like in the Catholic church there was like over the years there was like kind of a marring of the Catholic church because of they had like you know uh I don't know if it's our pastors in the Catholic church as well yeah we'll talk about a priest can be a pastor of a parish okay so they had like um you know I guess I'm trying to think of a way to even say it they had like you know the Catholic church a lot of pedophilia or in the past in the church right they've had that happen over the years and it kind of gives it like any time like you if you bring it up people will like make a joke like that happens a lot I know yeah and it's unfortunate yeah it's not fair why do you think that um people who uh have suffered from pit pedophilia or are or are labeled pedophiles why did so many of them kind of end up in the church yeah I think that's a better way to put it because uh why would someone who's sexually attracted to young people want to join uh the church and be a a priest or a minister in the church well the answer is obvious in a way because it gives them a lot of Authority and access to young people got it and so someone who has that predilection I understand perfectly why they might be attracted the same way again to be fair if you look at uh sexual abuse of young people in our public school system in the Boy Scouts in fact wherever you find young people and then others in Authority you're going to find this problem of of pedophilia most pedophilia of course exists in families not in you know the Catholic church but in families so that's a better way to put it I can I certainly see why someone might be attracted to the position because they're going to be in a position of leadership of Authority and access to yeah that makes sense what I think is really false the insinuation that somehow the celibate priesthood produces people who are attracted to children I think that's demonstrably false you do yeah I want to hear more why you think that well because one thing you can find uh sexual abuse of children way outside the confines of the Catholic church it's not something that's unique to the celibate priest for sure and you find it again in families and in coaches and in Boy Scout troops Etc Etc yeah a lot of spaces where there is like you're saying where there's some sort of a leadership or trusting it's I think what is more plausible is the other way around that you see why someone who's attracted to children in this kind of perverse way would say oh that's that's good for me to get in is the Authority and access to kids and also you know I feel it's so important to point out the church responded really well this was a terrible crisis I mean there was there was terrible sexual abuse of children within the church on the part of a priest and the acknowledgement of that was hugely important and the steps taken there were very very strong steps taken what are some of the steps that kind of were kind of instituted um and I'm sorry I don't know this yeah level so I was a seminary Rector for a while which I was in charge of a seminary and so when you're screening people for the seminary a major major preoccupation was to screen for this kind of difficulty and we did it through you know psychological exams and that sort of thing and then lots and lots of instruction in the seminary itself about this problem there's also a program that's now all the way through the Catholic church called the Virtus program um that is educating people on a very regular basis and very seriously about um sexual abuse of children about the dangers about grooming about all of these things so I mean every single month I get uh in the email this this Virtus thing I have to there's a little article that I have to respond to and answer questions about it but we all have to go through an extensive program around it and what was some of the screening like what was that like it's interesting well like psychological screening so every kid coming to the seminary has to go through a battery of psychological testing interviews it's like everybody that wants to be a member of the seminary yeah and then as rector I had to read every single one of them you know and then very attentive to people's you know sexual history and that sort of thing and because you were sort of the person that had to kind of be like their liaison I guess into the like getting approved I guess yeah I I had I had to give the word finally could someone get in the seminary so sometimes I had to say no we're not accepting would some of them feel at least this was a safe place to admit to you what had been they'd been thinking about or what had been going on like well you never know for sure I mean sometimes people can uh deceive you yeah for sure but you know the we also have uh independent psychologists too looking at all these guys got it so they're different ways but no we are hyper attentive to this problem now in the church and I think it's fair to say that that one of institutionally one of the safest places for a young person is the Catholic church because we're so attentive to the problem we've done so much to try to address it and then also just deal with this problem of you know if people really are guilty of this crime that they've got to be out of the priesthood and the problem was for so long a time bishops and some of them I think in in Goodwill thinking was the best thing would send a guy for you know prayer and maybe some psychological treatment and then reassign him we now know that you can't do that's not helping no and so that's you know we're we're well aware of that and what about today like if somebody uh is is found guilty of a of a sexual abuse what happens yeah I mean if someone is clearly determined that the person is guilty we have a zero tolerance policy they're out of the you know the priesthood um and another thing too is that when accusations come forward we take them great with great seriousness and we always bring the the secular authorities in we make sure that the police know about these accusations that was a problem two years ago if some of it was not brought to the attention of the police like we'll handle it within within the church but it's a very high priority now understood um so before you go uh and thank you so much for your time today my pleasure I loved it um there's a lot of like the Pope spoke out against like artificial intelligence, right? I think there's a fear right now. This is my fear. Okay. I'll just tell you what it is. I fear that they create these data pools, right? They create these artificial intelligence, these AIs, and then we go there for everything, right? How do I feel? Why don't I feel good today? What's going on? This becomes your friend. And then that also becomes almost a place where you pray, right? This is how I feel. This is what's going on. This is what I'm scared of. What do I do? And it all leads into some, like, it leads into a machine telling us what to do and not a higher power connection. And that feels like, like almost, I don't know if we start un-evolving, I don't know what's going to happen, but that feels very, very scary when you like completely sever what it means to feel like it means to be human. One of the last, one of the most important things. That the AI becomes the new God? We're not really understanding. We're assembling data. And that really worries me a lot. We're getting great at data, but understanding means seeing patterns, seeing connections, thinking an issue through. And we don't do that a lot. We're so addicted to the quick, give me the quick data on something that can be useful, but it undermines our humanity. You're exactly right about that. Our humanity is tied to our capacity to understand. Yeah. Which means to see patterns of meaning, right? And purpose. And the AI is not going to give that to us. There's the economic side too, that, you know, jobs will be taken for sure by AI. And so if work is tied to human dignity, that's really a problem. The Pope sees that. No, I'm glad he's talking about it because it's on everyone's mind and it is posing a spiritual challenge for sure. Yeah. Cause you hear just people say, ask chat. I know, right. People say, ask perplexity, ask. Yeah. Yeah. You know, they say, ask this AI. How about think it through yourself? Or ask God. Or ask God or talk to another person and have an argument about it or something. Yeah. Yeah. Talk to another person. Like, you know, cause you can find God through other people too a lot of times. I love arguments. The problem is the social media world has given rise to insult. And that's all we know how to do anymore is just, we throw insults and we're snarky. Yeah. It's more snipers than it is like wrestling. But an argument is, yeah. I mean, assembling data, putting it together in a logical formula, entertaining the view of your opponent, answering their objections. That's an argument, right? And that's a beautiful thing. It's a non-violent way of adjudicating disputes. But if we've forgotten that, all we have left is you're an idiot and you know, I hate you and your mother's an idiot too. And that's all we're left with. And that's deadly. Yeah. I just wonder like, oh yeah, here it says the current Pope Leo the 14th is not anti-AI, but he argues that AI must remain a human controlled tool and be judged by whatever it protects. Human dignity. And be judged by whether it protects human dignity, work, freedom, truth, and the vulnerable. He sees real benefits in technology while warning that efficiency, profit, and technical power should never become society's highest values. Right. AI should serve people, not replace, manipulate, surveil, or dominate them. But if AI does these things, what recourse, does the Pope have any recourse really? Or is it just- No, he's a prophetic voice, I would say. But then also, I mean, he's connected to this huge network of influence. So if all of us who are under his authority, we say, yeah, that's important. We can all in our own way implement that. So no, he does have an extraordinary power. That surveillance thing, you mentioned it earlier, that always spooks me because I know my phone is listening to me. And I'll have a little casual conversation that I'm scrolling and something I mentioned, some product or whatever comes up, and I suppose it sees it as a positive. I see it as deeply weird and disturbing. Yeah. If that stupid machine is listening to me. Yeah. At least it's listening to you. You mostly do good stuff. Right. Imagine the rest of us, dude. You're a bishop. I mean, hopefully you're on the up and up. Yeah, for the most part. But what if those things got more powerful and they could then start manipulating you? It's spooky. It's very spooky. I mean, what do you think God would say about it? Do you pray to ask God for thoughts about that kind of stuff? Sure. Yeah. But the Bible knew about this in a way. See, the Tower of Babel story. You know, of like, let's all get together. We're going to, through our own technical accomplishment, we're going to build this tower up to heaven. That's a beautiful symbol of this problem, that when we want to get so in control of things and we so manipulate, well, that turns on us, that destroys us, you know? So the scattering of the people there, the scattering of the languages, that's a sign of how this project has turned on itself. It undermines itself. No, the Bible knew all about this stuff in its own way. And now, the craziest part of that. Even in its own way. Even in its own moment, is that Babel is now a language learning app. Yeah, right. So it's like, I think six out of four people or whatever, people, you say, hey, what's Babel? And they say, they don't even know the story, but they know the language learning model. They know the language learning app, which is fine. I mean, it's a good app. They think Babel's related to Babylon, you know, so that that story was probably written down not long after they returned from the Babylonian exile, right? The Jews. And so what Babylon meant to them was this big domination. Dominating political power. So the Bible's always been suspicious of big, you know, political and economic power. It's dangerous. Yeah, it's dangerous. Do you feel like the Catholic Church is still as powerful as it once was? Well, it depends on how you define power. I think in many ways we're more powerful. I mean, you could say years ago it was more aligned with political power and that sort of thing. And I think we've learned the lesson there that it's not a good road to go down. But in terms of our global impact and all that, I mean, look at it. Look at the role. The pope is the most recognized religious leader in the world. I mean, who's his rival? The Dalai Lama, maybe? But there's no one that has the stature of the pope. Oh, yeah. He's the Kanye. No one has the institutional range that we have. So, no, we have an enormous power of influence and all that. But I would say stay away from political power. Yeah. It's scary. Yeah. Yeah. No, we should always be in a kind of a prophetic stance. It doesn't mean you're always denunciating power. Power is not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing in itself. And the church can speak out favorably of political power, but we shouldn't be identified with it. Does the church support specific political parties or not really? No, we always make a point of not doing that. I mean, so we kind of bend over backwards in election season to say, here's what the church stands for. Here's what we feel strongly about. But we never say, therefore, vote Democrat or vote Republican. Got it. We don't do that. Before you go today, there's an amazing thing I've heard you talk about. It's called the transcendent third. Oh, yeah. We had a guru on actually as well, this gentleman named Guru Dev, and he talked about the same thing. Really? He talked about the same pattern. Can you tell me a little bit about the transcendent third? I learned that from Aristotle when I was a young philosophy student. So the great Greek philosopher Aristotle, who was wise about so many things, Aristotle. But this was a friendship, he said. He studied friendship a lot, Aristotle. He said, a friendship will flourish when it goes beyond the two friends loving each other. So I like that. I like you. You like me. Okay, great. But it'll really flourish when together we fall in love with a transcendent third. So it could be our country. It could be art. It could be philosophy. It could be God, right? That there's something in common that we both love. And see, look, we're drawn out of ourselves looking upward together to that. Now we draw closer together, almost like Willie. And Willie, without even trying, we get closer together. Early on, I mentioned Fulton Sheen, right? About to be beatified. He wrote a book back in the 50s. I still recommend it to couples, engaged couples. It's called Three to Get Married. And he made exactly this point. To get married, you need a bride, you need a groom, and you need Christ, he said. And if you don't have Christ, the bride and groom are going to fall apart. But if together they fall in love with the transcendent third, with Christ, they'll stay together. And I think that was, there you go. That was true when Aristotle said it. It was true when Fulton Sheen said it. And I think it's a great principle for anyone in a relationship. If we're just infatuated with each other. Did you see the movie, by the way, Obsession, this summer? Did you see it? It was this cheaply made movie, right, that was hugely, it's really good from a spiritual standpoint. No, I didn't see this. Oh, I heard about this, but I didn't see it. It's good? It's about this guy, right, who he loves this girl, and she's not reciprocating. Oh, yeah. And he's so frustrated. I've been that guy. And he's in this shop, right, and it's like a magic thing or something, and it's this stick. And if you break the stick and you make your wish, it will come true. So he goes, not Lord, it's just like, make me love her, or make her love me more than anything in the world. Breaks the stick. And at that moment, it's very spooky. He's just dropped her off, right? At that moment, she appears in the doorway. And he's like, my dream has come true. Well, I won't give the movie away. Yeah, don't. Don't watch it because it's. It's a spiritually very rich movie. What happens when. See, there's no transcendent third. There's no transcendent. She just loves me. Yeah. That's it. She will devour you, and you will destroy each other. Dead right. And it's a very spiritually alert movie that way. Yeah, this. Yeah, I love. I just love the idea of that. I love the reminder of that. Because it's also a reminder to go do something, right? Yeah. To fall in love with something else, right? Yeah, together. Yes, together. Together. - Together we love this thing. - It's just like find a friend and go do something. right right yeah this this guru that we had and he was saying like if you if you're two lines and you want to get together you're going to meet but then you're also just going to keep going yeah right you know but if you also then you're headed in the same direction yes it's just like kind of a force you know it'll draw you together without you even knowing it it'll draw you together automatically can we say a prayer before you go yeah nice are you going to pray or you want me to pray can you pray sure yeah in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit Heavenly Father we thank you for this chance to be together we thank you for this conversation may it prove to be a blessing to all those who who see it and all those who hear it Lord continue to bless Theo and his work and bring him closer and closer to you and may all those who are listening all those who are watching also come closer to you as the great goal of their life and I pray through Christ our Lord amen amen man weren't you baptized Catholic thank you I was in a Presbyterian church or Presbyterian yeah okay where did I read Catholic or Catholic family or somebody probably made something up okay but yeah my journey what it's been like is like most recently it's like most recently is probably the most that I've like the strongest relationship I've had with God I used to believe I've always believed in God I've always believed in God I've always felt that there's something greater than me and thankfully you know but yeah most recently I just like I don't know just more than ever I just I just don't have any doubt about it and I just have just been praying a lot more meditating I'm in a cool Bible study and so like oh you are it just gives me a group of people to care about outside of myself yeah that's good so it's been fun because everybody will share what's going on with them and then it gives me something to pray about for my friends so it's like it's so nice when I get to like think about this person like well what could I pray about for them you know and like and how can I make it like kind of specific or like you know it's almost like you're like kind of designing it yourself you know but it's just yeah no stay with the Bible study that's good stay with that yeah it's been a and it's just been a great group yeah so I just here in Nashville yeah yeah good so I just feel like yeah I don't know that's where I'm at no stay with that that's great yeah and I don't want to pretend to be somewhere that I'm not at either you know I just want to be yeah I just want to just one day at a time all right that's it Bishop Robert Barron thank you so much God bless you for your for your just your desire to get out and spread the word and just share the message and I always enjoy listening to you and I'm so glad that we got to hang out today yeah me too thank you very much amen thank you now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves I must be cornerstone oh but when I reach that ground I'll share this piece of mind I found I can feel it in my bones but it's gonna take it I'll be back in a minute Initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. 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