#680 - Ultramarathoner Mark Dowdle

He's an ultra-endurance athlete known for running some of the most brutal marathons in existence. Uh, he just completed the last sole ultra in Germany, 395 miles in four days. I enjoyed my time with today's guest, Mr. Mark Doudel. You can drop this down just a touch and if you need to move it or whatever, if something's getting weird, just do whatever you got to do, um, yeah, dude, you're a freak, bro, like a nice freak. I appreciate that. Yeah, not like, yeah, not like a carnival one, but um, the race, the race you just won, it's called the last sole ultra marathon. You ran 395 miles in just under 94 hours without sleep. It's a backyard ultra for our listeners that do not know. Can you explain what a backyard ultra marathon is? Sure. Yeah, a backyard ultra is when you run 4.167 miles or 6.7 kilometers every hour on the hour until one person's left. So it's also people call it the last person standing. So you have, you know, 59 minutes and 59 seconds to complete this four mile loop. If you run it in 45 minutes, you get 15 minutes of rest. If you, you run it in 52 minutes, you get eight minutes of rest and you just keep doing this same loop over and over again until either you time out, you physically can't go anymore or you mentally just are done. And the real obstacle of this race, yes, is the physical aspect to it, but it's dealing with the unknown because you don't know when the race is going to end. And so it's a constant battle between how do I stack up against these other people? And it's, it's a big game of trying to bring yourself back to the present and not compare yourself of how you perceive your pain because we're all experiencing pain out there. But I can only feel my pain. And then I look at somebody else who might be doing a good job of posturing and I will perceive myself as worse off or less than or not capable enough because of a perception that I've created in my mind about who they are compared to myself. Wow. And so the thing I love about this race is yes, it's a physical thing, but it is like every loop, I have to make a commitment to say the story in my mind that I'm creating is not the full truth. And can I take one more step? And it is a constant recommitment to that process of like, I can do this if I take one more step that's evidence I can keep going. And it's a it's the race has blown up a lot over the last couple of years. And I think a lot of it has to do with how accessible it is. Like if you've never run a mile in your life, it's more digestible to say, I can try and complete one loop of four miles over, I'm going to sign up for a half marathon and do months of training to get to that point of being able to run 13 miles or 26 point two miles. So you might have a lot of people sign up just like, oh, I can do four miles and I can at least do one loop. Yes. And that's the beauty of it is we're all on the same loop at the same time. And so I go for almost four days and somebody out there went for three loops and the relationship to hard is equally as difficult for that person as it is to me. It is both of us trying to figure out how far can we go. And then when we come up with obstacles, how can we just take one more step forward? You said like the story in your mind that you start to create that I guess it's like a story of like defeat or that I can't like what stories do you notice your minds start to create? That's a great question. I think it is I'm not good enough. I'm not capable enough. I'm not worthy enough. This race, the outcome of this race is going to determine my value or not. Like all of these things that I know aren't true and and this is the power of having friends like Cody who's here with us or my wife or my friend Kellen who was out there at the race is every time I get to go back into the tent where they're sitting, we I know in my heart of hearts even out when I'm on the course and I'm 60 hours into the race and this story starts to be crafted in my mind of I'm not good enough. I get to go back to a tent full of people that say not through their words necessarily but through their actions and through the trust we've built is like dude whatever happens here is not going to change how we feel about you how we love you. We're going to be proud of you no matter what. They just want me to be able to make a decision I'm going to be proud of at the end of the day and be able to honor my word honor my commitment of taking that step when I know I'm able to and so that the narratives are constantly going of like trying to convince myself that I'm not done yet even though every logical reason to stop has presented itself. So it's almost like you stop and get like an emotional hydration in a way. So the funny thing is I think about it in terms of these like highs and lows of the first 24 hours are always the most difficult because I haven't invested enough into the experience to really see the benefit of that outcome or going through that hellish experience to be worthy or valuable of any side. Once you get through those 24 hours you start to get into the experience and you start to feel the effects and you're like okay let me just kind of settle into this feeling, this experience and really test out what it's really trying to teach me about myself. There always comes a moment because after you kind of get out of that first low you start to slowly decay and it's from a physical side it's a mental side it's a spiritual side and there's always a point in the race where I need to cry. Like crying is my release point of all the tension, all of the burdens that I'm holding on to, all of the pressure that I'm putting on myself about this, what this race means, what it means about me, what it means for my family and so 62 hours into this race I called Cody and I called another friend and I was just like I just need to verbalize that this is so hard, this is so hard and the problem with it being so hard is I know that I'm not gonna stop and because of that that means I have to keep walking into this pain and I have to keep going towards it and that sucks, that sucks, that realization that you know it's gonna be hard, you can't imagine it being more difficult than that and yet you have to say I'm gonna stay right here and when I can verbalize that with somebody that knows that loves and trust me and they can sort of reinstate the belief of why I'm there and I can cry it's almost like I'm rejuvenated in that moment because I've released myself of all this external pressure and I've let myself in my body release itself of that tension and then I'm like okay, let's go too, yeah after you cry you feel great which is crazy and dude I've thought about this for a while actually crying is like if you're like crying because like you did something didn't happen like that's maybe one thing but crying it's almost like it's sweat from the weight that we carry inside dude it's like sweat out of my eyes it's like if anything deserves to sweat it's this it's this discomfort it's this weight it's this like whatever heaviness or whatever I'm holding onto you know whatever I can't understand or can't fathom or can't like matriculate enough to be okay with me you know like those are the things it's like please God pull this sweat out of me like let me release this and if it comes out of your eyes that's fine you know like yeah dude but just to get that out bro I heard I heard I heard you say that at hour 60 of an ultra you'll find out who you are yeah not what you think not what you believe not what other people think you are but you'll meet the person that you are out there on that course and that's why you love them dude and no joke bro that got me out of bed to go work out bro it was more 30 in the morning I probably should have stayed in bed but it had me that hyped dude just like hearing you talk about like this relationship like with yourself and just confronting that part of us that we don't want to just and just confronting this thing of quit you know yeah I think it's it's so easy like it's easy sitting here talking about the experience and saying yeah I I am who I say I am but what does it actually look like practically out in real life and and to be truth be told it's easy to do in a backyard ultra for me because I've had experience with that and let's be honest I get I get applauded for it when I do it out on the course and I have success with it, people will applaud me for it. And so there's a certain level of selfishness in that to be frank. But the true essence of where I build that from and how I'm able to do that out on the courses, I say this all the time like, I don't get to determine if I'm a good friend. My friends get to determine that. I don't get to determine if I'm a good husband. My wife gets to determine that. And they base that off of the integrity and character that I have. And where am I getting that from? I get that from scripture. I get that from Christ. And how do I live up to that? That is by me continuously doing the little things in my day-to-day life. Even outside of like the training, the running, the stuff that gets me prepared for that. But honoring my commitments in all the little aspects of my life because this conversation right here will show up in my next race because the story that will then be crafted is like, you're on the Theo Von podcast and you talked about how you are a man of your word. Are you going to do that right now when it's really tough to do so? And that's scary because I can't run from that version of myself out there. I have to make a decision when it's most difficult, when it's most challenging. And I have to say, I am going to be that man or I'm not. Or I'm going to allow the excuses that are rational justifications to convince me that I can walk away before it's my time. Yeah, dude. Just hearing you have this relationship kind of with your own integrity, you know, I think it's such an important conversation that needs to kind of be happening in the world right now. And I shouldn't say that. It's an important conversation that I need to be happening with myself, you know. And so I'm just so glad that you're here kind of sharing some of your thought processes and just us even thinking about that because I like to believe I'm one person but live kind of like another person. And that creates a conflict in me. And it creates an uncomfortable ability. Yes. And at times it creates, you know, it's created an unreliableness even to myself. Amen. And do that a lot of times. It's like, when I'm with myself, that is, it's not embarrassing, you know, but it's just like, I can do better, you know. And I want to. So I'm glad that I notice it more, but it's, it isn't on comfort because it's like, yeah, it's like, I'm this, but this is what I do. And are those things aren't in master with each other, then I'm going to, I'm going to be in a state of discomfort. Well, can I just say something on that like that? Does that make sense? What I'm saying? It does 100% and I relate to that so completely because I'm sure at least what I'm pulling from that is there's a burden to that almost because there's a recognition of there are parts of our lives that we feel disconnected to our action and our word. There creates this discomfort. And that can be burdensome. That can be like, man, I'm, I'm not living up to who I want to be. And that can almost bring us down. Yes. But there's a, there's a flip side of that of there. A lot of people don't think like that. A lot of people aren't aware of that. And there is a, a true blessing and one, we're never going to be perfect for you. Yeah. So we got to remove that and give ourselves grace and understand that through the awareness of that, we can either beat ourselves down or we can build ourselves up and say, I can do better. I will do better in if I fail. I'm going to continue to try and work to, to be better and have people in our lives that are going to hold us accountable and build us up so that we can still, that we can continue to live that way. But it's a blessing and a curse because when we are aware of that, we can, we can, man, we can beat ourselves down. The trap. Yeah. Yeah. Yet for me, it's like the discomfort kind of became just sometimes too much. But also, yeah, it's like, if I hold myself to too high of a standard, it's some type of, of a perfection, right? That's such a trap. We can't, we can't do it. I know. It's impossible. In my, dude, so much of my life, I would hold myself to this level that was impossible to reach, right? It was impossible to reach. So that way I was always failing. And then in always failing, it would match with some old belief of mine that I was always, that I was a failure anyway. And so it's like, it's weird, like in setting, in aiming for perfection, I was always setting myself up for this old magnet that was just deep inside of me somewhere that was like, you're, you're not worth it or whatever, or, yeah, you're a failure, you're no good, you're ugly, you're, there's something wrong with you, right? And so, and, yeah, man, that's been a big trap in my life. And I have more awareness about it now. Yeah. I think the place that I'm in right now is a lot of the kind of given myself grace just for the times that I've held myself to, to, to some level of impossibility, you know, unrealistic expectations. Yeah. Do you ever feel like giving yourself that grace is giving yourself like, cutting yourself slack that you don't deserve? Yeah, let me think about it for a second. Do I ever feel like giving myself grace? Like, there's this perfect standard that you're holding yourself to. And if you fail, it's reinforcement that you're a failure. Okay. And at least that's the story in your mind. And there could be another story of like, I'm going to give myself grace and the negative story of that is, oh, you're just giving yourself grace because you can't hold yourself to a higher standard. Yeah, it does. I don't, yeah, I don't do that. Okay. But I do see what you're exactly what you're saying. Yes. Yeah. I don't do that. I think it's just like, I just feel like I should always be able to figure it out. It's this eternal thing of like, man, why can't you figure this out? You can, like, it's not even like an encouraging thing. It's not like you can do this. It's just like, why can't you figure this out? You can figure it, you know, and so some of that is realizing that I can't. But then also, there's a gift in it is that I don't have to do things alone anymore. And that starting to realize that is going to change my life. Where'd you learn that? I think just when I was a kid, it was just like, yeah, there was just nobody to rely on. Yeah. You know, and so I just, you just start to rely on yourself, I think. I guess where did you learn that you could rely on other people? You could rely on other people. What was the turning point for that? It's been coming new into my life, I think. I think some of it has come through like recovery. I've been just focusing back in on my recovery a lot more. Probably develop a better relationship with God and my power, you know, and just realizing that I'm not alone. Yeah. You know, and it's like we're supposed to be talking about racing. But this is okay. This is the biggest race in the world. You know, I do. Yeah. So I think it's like that. And just like, yeah, leaning on other people with like what's really going on, you know, and not being afraid to tell God what's going on. Like to the word. Yeah. You know, not to be like even sometimes words in language, I'm afraid to use that. I wouldn't even want to use it around God or whatever. But then it's like, you know, like you got to put them in the fine print of a prayer. You know, so it's like, I think, yeah, it's like that. Yeah, it's like, I think kind of being louder with the fine print of my prayers. If that makes any sense. It does. Yeah. So yeah, thanks for me. Think about that. I didn't even know I needed to think about that today, man. It's got me sweating. That's good. That's okay. Yeah. Yeah, man. One of the things I was so like that really like woke me up to you was just some of your just the ways that you look at that stuff because it's so important. You know, and I think just having a bit, I think just having a bigger relationship with myself, like a real relationship. Like, what am I really doing here? You know, like, who do I, you know, I'm saying like ask myself some of the tougher things. And I want to get into that. And I know that you know about your journaling practice and that you have this, that you've kind of developed this relationship with yourself. And I think it's really cool. And I want to learn more about that. But I want to learn more about the race first. Okay. Is that okay? Yeah, that's totally cool. Okay. Cool. Thanks for being here, dude. Yeah. Thank you for having me. So you talked about like, if you finish a loop first, so the loop is let's just let's just say it's four miles to make it easy. Yeah. Cool. So the loop is four miles. Yep. And then at every hour on the hour, you have to go back out for the loop again. Yes. And the contenders that continue to show back up for that loop, they're still in the race. Yes. And it keeps going on until only one person can do the loop by themselves. Yes. Got it. And when you, is there strategy in finishing that loop early? So you have time to eat or, or, or, or hydrate or communicate with your, with your tent or, or do you want to finish like right up at the minute? So you're just go right into the next run. Like take me in as some of those type of strategies. Yeah. There's, there's different strategies for different people on how they like to run the loops. I personally like to run the loops in 50 minutes. And pretty consistently, almost like a dog that's being trained. I will come in at 50 minutes. I'll lay down immediately. I'll sleep for five minutes. And when I say sleep, sometimes it is me just laying down and resting. other times sleep deprivation will take its hold and I will get like these fragmented images flickering like these photographs cycling through my mind like I can't even hold on to them they're just flipping so fast and it'll it'll it'll happen for you know five six minutes and then at 57 minutes into the hour there's a loud speaker that'll say three minutes runners three minutes and that is your wake up call Theo that is like I'm awake enough to hear that but also sleep enough to like be getting rust and so then I'll wake up at that alarm I'll sit up I'll sit in my chair my wife will feed me to show feed me pancakes and syrup oh god staking eggs at three in the morning it's just a Roman oh it's great it's great yeah yeah and and I'll eat for about two minutes two and a half minutes and then I'll walk to the start line and you got to be in the corral when that bell rings so if I'm in my tent and they ring that bell I'm out so you got to be in that corral and you have a coffee or something before you go out oh coffee Red Bull um you're so you just like a construction worker you should see this stuff I'm eating and drinking out there it is like you know a kid in a candy store you're like let's go and will you put a piece of gummy mouth do you keep something like that to keep you like going like a or people putting zins in is that a thing that people are doing people do zins and nicotine out there I don't I do it in my daily life not entirely proud of it but I don't do it during the race because I'm like this is a reward for after when it's all said and done um and it can kind of mess with your ball system out there you know so there's a thing called the poop loop so you have as much time in that hour to take care of you know sleep nutrition go into the bathroom some people they'll know they'll need a poop loop so they'll run the loop in 45 minutes so they can take a poop and then they'll be ready to go for that next loop can you tell when someone's on their poop oh yeah yeah people like to announce it too it's like I'm going for a poop loop on this one so they'll just speed it up or there's sometimes there's a portapoddies right outside of the corral so as the loop starts you are able to use the two portapoddies that are right there and they'll sprint right for it and just get it out of the way on the course yeah they'll do it right there in the first like few steps in the portapoddy and then they'll run you know if you're gonna run a poop loop you want to get it done before you have to run fast yeah that'd be tough to carry with you if you're trying to run pretty fast um but then there's other things like uh I'll get in and I'll do a 45 minute loop and I will get entirely undressed I'll stand in a bucket of water and my wife will shower me like full service um servant uh wife of like being able to be there and help me through this entire experience and she's like yep we got to get you showered up we got to get you know aquifer and lube on your feet and in between your armpits and stuff so some of that like a caretaking ritual almost in a way yeah so there's an emotional value to that as well oh yeah oh yeah like as if you feel cared for then things are possible 100% and and in those dark moments during the race really it's not something that she says to me but it's more of a look where I can say Lucy this is really hard and sometimes she'll say more often it's more of a look of like as long as you're in that darkness I'm gonna be right there with you and she'll just hug me and it's like that hug tells me everything's okay because I'm not experiencing this darkness alone there's somebody who might not be out running the course with me but she's back here as invested as concerned as you know experiencing the hard times as I am and that allows me to keep going because somebody is there with me you have the power almost of two people when you're doing it yes there's love and commitment there yeah it's beautiful dude yeah and just the the ability just like when someone is like saying something's hard just not even to tell them something just give them a hug mm-hmm you know my brother does that sometimes like a couple times over the years I've been going through it dude and I like one time I pulled over by this donut shop and like I was just like what just it was just like one of those times I was like processing old stuff and I was like balling in my truck and my brother was like and I was just telling my brother like what was going on and he's like I can just sit here with you and not say anything you know he's like I have like 20 extra minutes I'll just sit here with you not say anything that's beautiful but I just want you to know that I'm here you know and dude I melted I like melted things that were like hurting from like I don't even know like my feet got smaller bro I freaking I was just to lose I mean I was just these came up you know say my shoes didn't fit later but it was just like like all just like all this old stuff came up because it just that kind of moment it never happened not trying I'm not trying to take away from no your story it's it's but that's what it's about like that's why I run because I think it's such a good depiction of how like I really feel this responsibility to share what I experience on that course and how I genuinely think I have the success I have is because we get those moments and that's the recipe for success in life like how good did you feel after those 20 minutes it was honestly in a weird way one of the neatest times of my life and you feel connected to your brother there's and no words need to be said and it's like what else what else are we chasing after like the win is great don't get me wrong I love it and it's part of the reason I'm sitting here with you and all that's great but like what I take away from that race and the races that I get to do is I get to create stronger relationships with the people that I love and do so in a way where we're all working towards the same mission together not to win the race but to come out the other side of it transformed by this experience bro as you're saying that like um we have this guy coming on name uh Bishop Robert Barron okay um he's an active bishop and he's also a historian like a Catholic historian sure and then we had this guru on the other day guru dev and both of them I've heard say this thing that when people have like a friendship or a relationship that's fine like if they're friends it's a friendship is good right if there's a relationship or a husband and wife that's good but when they have a common interest that moves them forward those are the things that keep people together and keep friendships and relationships together so even as you're saying it's like you run right but it brings people into your world and gives them something also to care about yes it gives um it gives your friends something to be associated with and like and then now they're a partner in it and somehow it's like so it's like I think when people it's like taking action in some way I think helps um sometimes we don't realize like the actions that some of us take or uh or things that can keep us together with someone else and then once somebody else is on board now you're taking that action together right and you have like a journey in the world and sometimes that journey just gets you through a few years sometimes it'll get you through a lifetime you know and there's no there's no action too small for that to happen like someone doesn't have to go run 400 miles in order to experience that they can just sit in that car asking a brother for help and that is that is the most important thing I get from running 400 miles and we get to do that in our everyday life if we take action like you said yeah man so much of attraction I quit letting my thoughts like I start to notice my thoughts more I've been meditating a lot and I'm just having finally I get to see what's going on dude I had no idea I was a damn video game and now every now and then yeah I have the control of my hands and I'm like oh interesting we're even just a second I start to notice some thoughts I'm like those are trash bro these are recyclable that's a thought that they played yesterday it's like but I just I don't know I'm not saying I know anything I'm just saying like that's just been like an experience I been having and it's been it's felt kind of rewarding um yeah it just felt like uh I don't know it's only it's starting to make me a little bit want to know myself even more yeah that's a that's cool but it's also a little spooky this episode is sponsored by better help if you could wake up tomorrow and be better at one thing what would that be for me it would be probably just listening better and not just offering an idea just listening if somebody asks for a suggestion maybe offer something but otherwise just be a batch of ears I think that's what I would like to do that would just be something I'd like to do better better is a feeling defined by you and for better help it's a better help therapist who really gets you it's a focus on global emotional well-being with thousands of therapists and millions of members in over 100 countries it's progress sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/theo That's better H-E-L-P dot com slash T-H-E-O to get back to racing. How, do you plan the calories and hydration you're going to intake before you go out there and when you're out there? Yeah. Yes and no. So we go into a race having a plan that we hold loosely onto. So so much can happen in four days of running, the weather can change, the, you know, my appetite can change drastically and so if I had a certain, like, I'm going to eat this, this loop and I'm going to have this amount of calorie intake and I'm going to have this amount of sodium, to me that would stress me out because if it didn't go according to that exact plan, then I would think something's wrong, I'm going to fail and it's like, we are so adaptable because we are made that way by a creator that we don't need to have everything planned out to that we're not, we're not built to know all the answers. And so I approach a race very similarly to that where it's like, I have an idea and obviously we bring the kitchen as Lucy and I say, we literally bring the kitchen like rice and beans and potatoes and steak and you can mix and match all of those to make a different meal. And my wife has gotten really good at just predicting what based on my mood, what I'm in the appetite for because it's almost like you come on for dinner like a hundred times it. So what do you even feed someone that this guy so a new job putting us out. So that, you know, there's not a detailed plan but anything that I, I guess the thing that I do most is like every loop I'm eating something. So even if it's a handful of chips or, you know, the best is obviously the steak and the, you know, what's it called orange slices and eggs and stuff like that. But that's not too heavy on your system and a race. Not really. So I train it by, I'll run four or five miles to a diner and I'll shove my face full of food and then I'll run home and I'll like this is race prep. But you get used to it out there, you know, and that's kind of the way it is. Yeah. You were talking about like if, if things are too planned out that it creates like once there's a plan and then if things deviate a little bit, it can create like a lot of uncertainty. It's almost like when you're learning about a bike and the wheels start wobbling. It's like, it's like, oh, we're trying to like be too specific and especially in a race when things can be different, right? Things obstacles can come up like you're saying. But I saw that you didn't even, you barely even made it to the race on time. Yeah. Your flight was delayed. Yeah. So that, honestly that and I'll talk about it like that is what gave me the confidence and further reinforced this belief that the less know what you can control and understand it's not a whole lot, right? You can control your energy and your attitude and a search situation and you can be prepared to handle what's coming up. But ultimately we have far less control than we think we have. And so the race started on August 14th at 2 p.m. German time. Wow. Wow. And the Germans are there. Oh, they're freaking dial. Yeah. Yeah. They don't even do a leap year. Really? I made that up. But it would seem like. Nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine. So I had a presentation for a company that I had committed to back in March. Okay. And it was in Alexandria, Minnesota, which is two hours north of where the airport is. So that was at 830 in the morning. Our presentation gets to the airport for a 115 flight. And there was a layover in Chicago. And brother, I am on the tarmac sitting in the plane for an hour and a half. And I'm watching my flight to Frankfurt fly away. I'm like, I need to be on that flight because it's a four hour drive from Frankfurt, which you just missed it? I just missed it because the layover flights, you flew in one, flew into Chicago, sitting on the time like watching your flight to Frankfurt. Yes. So they rebooked me for a later flight, but I wouldn't have been able to make it to the race in time. So I'm on the phone with Lucy and my friend, Kellyn and the race director, Kim. And we're like, okay, how do we make this work? And the plan shifted from Frankfurt to flying me into Amsterdam, which is closer to first an hour, the race was. And then Kim was like, all right, the only way that we're going to get you to this race on time is if we schedule a private jet from Amsterdam to Mooster or Moonstor and then it's an hour drive to the race. So I get on the flight, flying to Amsterdam, I'm racing through security and border patrol. And then I get to the tarmac for the private jet. And I'm explaining to the pilots who are like, who are our age and they're just like so excited. Tell them about what I'm doing there and the situation, I'm like, dude, we got to go. So we're up in the air and we're down. I'm like, man, that was, that was really fast. And we're getting off the flight. And the pilot looks at me with a little smile on his face and he's like, don't tell anybody I said this. But that 45 minute trip that it usually takes a get here, we got here in 20 minutes. What? And he's like, you got to promise me one thing. You won't quit on that course. Really? And what's crazy. So Kim's dad picked me up. We drove an hour to the race and I was there 15 minutes before the race started. Was everybody already there? Everybody was there in the starting corral. They had already done pre-race announcements and there's a photo of a bunch of us. Everyone's in their race gear, they got their water bottles and everything and I'm standing in jeans with a suitcase. So I quickly got changed. I did a quick shower, got my race stuff on and by the time I got into the corral, there was two minutes to go to the race. Did it almost add like a new freedom in a way like it did? Yeah. And you, but the fact that you're able to process that as that, that's the important thing. Like if, if, when a moment gets tough, if we can like, manipulate it enough to have a perspective, be, have hope and possibility in it because, yeah, because a lot of times it can go the other way. You know what you easily could have got on that other ship where it's like, this is, I'm not going to be, you're barking orders, you're being like this and then, and now it's a nightmare. Yeah. What do I have control of? That's what I kept trying to remind myself of this situation that was happening of like, I don't control the flights. There's a part. So hilarious. All those guys are so happy. They're stoked. They're like, this guy would be here for one day. So I had put it in the back of my mind that all of those, a lot of those guys are friends. So more of like the people I didn't know, it's like, everybody's going to discount me. Everybody's going to see that I'm, I'm not going to make it that far because, look at all of this. I mean, even though I was doing a decent job of controlling my emotions, it's still like an emotional roller coaster, you know, and getting to that race, it was like, this is a perfect example of how this weekend is going to go because if I can go through this experience with a smile and see it as every obstacle is just an opportunity to try something new and experience this adventure in a different way that is not the way I envisioned it. It's not the way everybody else envisioned it, but who's to say this is a worse way to experience it. Yeah. That's the trap I've gotten in a lot. It's getting a little better, but that's the trap sometimes. It's like, this isn't how it's supposed to be. And you can, you can almost feel your body get like tight over it. That feeling just sucks, man. Yeah. Well, you get out of, after a while, you just get tired of you, like, it just has to be a better way. Yeah. And there is, you know, that's a crazy thing. There is a better way. But I think it takes practice in noticing when you get to those moments and then being able to start just, you know, kind of slowly adjust. Again, I'm not preaching this just kind of the like, yeah, you just can't hold on so tight, you know, because you get exhausted. You hold on to anything so tight, you get exhausted, you know? What is happening to your body during a race, right? So like, are there parts where your, like, are your muscles just like vibrating? Like do your feet get swollen, does your, like, what, what kind of happens as you go through? Because four days of racing is, that's a lot of racing, like that's the most racing, you know? That's, like, that's kind of the most racing. It is the most racing. So thinking about it, I kind of think about it, I'm not a big car guy, but like, if you take a minivan across the country, you're going to go at a different pace than if you take like a Corvette. And if you're taking a Corvette, you're going to have to let that engine cool down because you're, you're revving it so hot. And so I'm taking the minivan across across the country in these races. And what I mean by that is, I'm, it's like a 50, 50, jog walk. I'm walking a lot of this race because I'm trying to play the long game of how can I slowly deteriorate my body over a long period of time instead of coming out hot and having that engine burn super quick? - Right, 'cause you just have to finish the miles within the hour. - Yeah, okay, got it. - So you could do it as fast as you want, but you could do 58 minute loops and just essentially walk as much as you possibly can. And there are times where I'll do that, but the body, it's not so much of like a muscles will cramp or it's more of like fatigue and the feet start to hurt and they start to swell. I mean, I still got blisters all over my feet from the race because of just the constant friction. So it's not like a muscle soreness. It's more of like a body fatigue and everything's wearing down. And the thing about this race is it was on an old military base. So 65% of the course was this concrete. And so you're like your soul freeze were just like, oh soren, achy and really feeling it. A lot of people had hit problems and man, I saw a KT tape, which is like this tape that's supposed to like help keep things in place. One dude had it all the way up his neck and down his back, down his leg and my brother. Maybe it's down to call it. He's getting airlifted out of his chair. Like they brought in a helicopter just to lift him up. - Oh, that's crazy. Dude, I would have that stuff. You would just see my eyes, dude. My whole body would be that tape, dude. I would have my whole body taped up. - It'd be a mummy out there. - I would be just a hopeful mummy. That's the only thing I would be. So it's not like your muscles start palipitating or do they like, it's not like that. - No, 'cause-- - Do you get scared of if you have your heart beat or something? Is there any things that start to happen that you get scared of that your body like, can my body, like my actual body? - I haven't so far reached that point. And I think it's really important for me, the runner to know that limit because I never wanna put that responsibility on somebody else. - Oh, so then your wife's responsible, your friend. Like suddenly they have to make a decision because you went too far. - Yes, my responsibility is to know my limit. And sometimes that might be at least in the past when I was just starting out with this. I thought my limit was one thing and then I'd wake up the next day and I'd be like, man, I'm really disappointed that I thought that was my limit. And so to trial and error of trying to figure out what that limit is. But it's not, I would never wanna put that responsibility on my wife to keep encouraging me to go out and then I end up in the hospital. - Right. - So I haven't found that limit. I don't know what it is, but I have a hope and a faith that I'll know that when it comes up. I'll, you know, a great example is Harvey Lewis. - He's another runner. - He's another runner, 50 years old. He's a legend in the sport. He's a guy I highly respect. I love this man. He's set the world record in this format and one of the things that he said after the race because he bowed out at around 40 or 50 loops and he had just got done running the bad water 135, which is another extreme race. But he said that the only thing that would keep him in the race was his ego. And I thought that was of this race. - Of this race. - He, when he tapped out, his body was just banged up from a race he did two weeks before. And he had made the statement that the only thing that was keep it would have kept him in the race would have been his ego. - Oh, that's fascinating. - And to hear someone like that who I look up to, who's a legend, who can make that decision. - And he's vegan, he's doing all the vegetables. - He's doing all the vegetables and Coca-Cola, baby. - Dude, I eat a bunch of mushrooms. I can't even, dude, I can't even make it out of my cousin's basement, dude. He's got, so after he bought out, he gave me a bunch of his juice. - And I was like, man, maybe this is what's keep it. He's got carrot juice and beet juice. And I was like, this still is good. But just watching him make that decision gave me confidence of like, I don't need my ego to keep me in a race. - Got it. So even if the greats are making a decision like that and their thought process can kind of like have a scale that understands that, then as a runner who really cares about this, hopefully I'll have the same scale. - Yeah, and exactly. And I think to like further that is like, why am I out here? Am I here to win the race? 'Cause if I'm here to win the race, then it's worth dying to win this race. But if I'm not here to win the race, if being here is something deeper and more meaningful, then the outcome of this race doesn't determine my experience here. In fact, I respect Harvey Lewis so much more because he made that decision, because he didn't put something external or materialistic above what's truly important to him. And I respect him even more for that. - Yeah, like I think a lot of like in my own life I've had things where it's like, and I'm not trying to sound like a downer. Sometimes I talk about stuff and I think it seems like such a downer. Like my life-- - I'm not getting that impression. - You're not? - No. - Okay. And I share about things that I think about or feel. And sometimes those things are like, you're navigating kind of the other side of like pretending everything's awesome. - Yeah, yeah. - But it's like, sometimes it's like, I thought, yeah, just that the success, like that will be enough, you know, that, and with that is the focus, or like, you do start to lose track of the relationship that you're having with the experience, you know? But I haven't done a bad job about that, but I have thought that at times. It's like, well, if I can just prove, it's like proving myself, here's what it is. It's like proving myself, but to who? Like who was I, because I don't always know if it was to me. Sometimes I don't know who it was to, but it was just like, and sometimes it could just be the societal arrow that you get put on as a child and shot through towards this, prove yourself, you know? But that's something that I've reflect on sometimes, and then I think even just like now, I'm just starting to see a little bit more, like, yeah, who do I want to prove things to? As my life goes on, you know? Yeah, it's just an interesting conversation, and some of it is just like, yeah, what are these conversations we have with ourselves? 'Cause they're the most important conversation, you know? And so often, I don't really have them, or I don't even, I have them, but I don't even notice what they are, too, at times. You know what? You have a beautiful way of creating imagery that I so much appreciate, the arrow analogy. Of I think oftentimes, we think that, so like that, you've been shot out into the trajectory, it's like, I wasn't even the one pulling the string. Yeah. And we forget that when we take control of the bow, that's not the only arrow we have in the back. We get to pull out another one, and let go of that identity, or that journey, or that path, that's, we didn't even, someone else created that path for us. You know? And so it's like, I've tried, and dude, I'm not perfect at this. I fail at this, and I have, the thing I'm appreciative is I have people that help ground me in this, of like the success is great. But ultimately, like, there's only one audience that matters, and that's God. Yeah. And we aren't going to live up to that perfect standard, but we can do our best, but know that, like, no matter how much success I have in running, it's not going to make me more valuable as a person. No matter how much I try and do good, I'm not going to be perfect, and there's no way. And the thing is, we don't have to be. We're not called to be perfect. We're called to recognize our own imperfection, and strive to be a little bit better. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it's just, it's about this, yeah. What is this relationship that I have with myself? And also, I have a relationship with the higher power, I think, helps you start to have a relationship with yourself. I think, anyway, I'm just kind of navigating some of that space, you know, trying to navigate it at a deeper level, you know? There was a loop out there, you get, you've been kind of criticized on that. I don't know if it's criticized, but you've been, let's say, and that's not fair to say. Oh, that's fair. Maybe it is. Documented online as having sort of this wild loop, I think it was loop 87, where it was down to you and L.O. Another competitor, and he's German. Yes he is. And you guys were the last two left in this race. And there's a part where it's like, the camera that they have to show this, it kind of makes you wonder if it's even real, or if like, is real set this up, you don't know exactly, yeah, you don't know exactly what's going on. But there's this infrared camera of you two guys on a trail. I want to show it right here. It's short. That's the only thing we can tell you right now. Stay very still and very static. And there they go. Oh no. It's one of you guys stopping when the other one stops. The lady goes, oh no, and the way she said it, the way it connected, everybody's mind. It's the same way when you're watching one of those animal pets. planet videos, and the cheetah comes in and gets the other animal, like the animal that can't get out of the river. And it's like, she's, oh, no, she said it just like that. So I think that that kind of got cycled into people's energy with it. But some people would say it looks like you could be stalking or like you're kind of like monitoring your prey or you're like, you're pan, panamiming, right? And the, what was going on there? Like what's going on out on the course? And what do, and what psychology are people using out on the course out there? If there's any, when it comes down to just a couple competitors? Yeah. I think in the backyard, it is not simply a physical adventure or competition. It's physical, it's mental, it's emotional, it's spiritual. And the people that do the best in the sport are able to handle all four of those things. And when it gets down to, you know, all throughout the day, everybody is playing a mind game, whether they know it or not, they're trying to look stronger than they are. You know, they're coming out and they're doing faster loops when maybe, you know, it's just a way to posture how strong they're doing. Hide and limp, hide and limp, secretly vaping. Only enough, I did a race in June and a guy was vaping. I was like, brother, how are you doing this? He's like, I'll tell you how I'm doing this. On cherry lime ice, dude, that's how I'm doing it. And we'd like to sponsor that guy. Yeah. He's a thick mod too. It was like not like a jewel or something. It was like puffing clouds. Oh, like one of those, like the front of a train, like one of those big dogs, Jeepers, crazy. That's pushing cold through his lungs, bro. Oh, I don't want to mess with that guy. That's one of this West Virginia backyard runners, bro. Hey, look at that dude or woman. But so loop, loop 87, it was an opportunity to be competitive in a way that the sport has always had, but maybe hasn't been televised in that way before. And I think the thing I go back to is like, you know, you don't tell Dennis Rodman how to play basketball. Yeah. You prepare to play Dennis Rodman. And I, from all of the sports that I've ever played, I've always been a guy who likes to use my energy as a way to celebrate the activity that I'm doing and use competitive advantages here and there to gain an advantage. And that's really all it was. It was, you know, I saw him sprint out of the gate, sort of trying to show me how strong he was. And I said, I'm right here with you. And were you guys talking? Does he speak English? He speaks a little bit of English. But there was obviously even if there's not verbal communication, there's like commutation of ambiance or peacocking in a way. There's like that kind of energy, right? Yeah, there was, I mean, he was, I spoke no words to him out there on that loop. In fact, I think him and I had one conversation all day. And that was when there were four or five people left. And I was like, hey, this is awesome that we're still here. We just made it three days of running. But out on that loop, yeah, there were no words exchanged from me on my end. He did sort of say like, what the heck are you doing? And his, I think, way of trying to show his strength was speeding up like he's a really fast runner. And I think he tried to break me off in that moment. And that was his form of communication to me that, okay, if we're playing this game, you're going to have to keep up with me. And I played that game back with him. And so your energy was just what? Like, I'm right here still. I'm right here. I, I can run fast loops too. Do you ever mind me? Like, I'm friends with this UFC fighter Dustin Porje. He's, and one thing that I always didn't like, one thing I like that he does is when he's, even if he's over on his side during the like on the breaks in between the rounds, even if he rests with his hands on his knees, he always is looking over at his opponent. And I think about that every time, like I'm in the gym, whatever I'm doing, like if I start to break down, like, rest a little bit, like just to pick my own stats or back up, just to remind myself, just a physical reminder of like, I'm going to keep going, right? He always does that. Yeah, I think that's, that seems normal to me that people do that kind of stuff, you know? I mean, if you've seen it a lot out there with other racers, like when you guys get down to just two guys, yeah, there's, there's all like Harvey and I we've raised against each other three times now this year. And I was at a race here in Franklin at the end of June called the mid-state mile. It's a one mile loop every 20 minutes until one person's left. Victoria, let me say again, it's a one mile loop every 20 minutes, every 20 minutes until one person's left. Yeah. So it's still that format, but like, not four miles every hour, one mile every 20 minutes. You must get a ton of entrance in that into that one. Well, the kicker with this one is it's in Franklin and there's 340 feet of elevation per loop. So you're climbing this massive hill and then you're descending down and then you're climbing another massive hill and you're descending down. So it's super challenging. And that's the one where I saw the dude puffing clouds. That's what was blowing my mind because it wasn't like a flat course where there's a friendly jog. It was like, you're hoffing and puffing up this hill. I'm like, how are you doing this? Dude, it's just somebody from Goodlet's ville, dude. That's all it is, bro. It's chill. But Harvey would do things where he would sprint out. Okay. He would sprint out of the gate. And that was his way of saying I could be here all day. Got it. You know, and so there's all this little stuff that's going on. Crews are trying to gather information from people, you know, all this little stuff. Every movement and posture that you have out there is you knowingly or unknowingly sending a signal to yourself and to other people, how you're doing. Oh, that's the world, too. And especially if you are like, I'll notice if I do fasting, dude, on the third day, dude, I can tell you if you're going to have grandchildren, right? You just know what's good. Like every little thing means something like, like communication is so much easier because it's, uh, it doesn't feel sedated by kind of food and stuff like that. Does it feel like a level like that when you get to like, when you're running at like after you've been running for so long, does everything feel like very acute and real or does it feel just bizarre? Exactly how you feel on day three is how it feels on day three and four for me out on the course. I don't understand the last two loops of the course and after the race, the communication that I was having with my team and then, you know, I was talking to everybody about my race afterwards and gave this speech. None of that was me. I have no idea where it came from. I say it was the Holy Spirit because I could not think straight out there, but this was, there was this general piece that I had not experienced really in any place in my life and all I could, I wasn't like I was thinking I was just experiencing and living in that moment without any expectation or pressure or desire to leave that spot. I just wanted to be right there. It was like I could feel the experience and feel the importance of it, but also step outside. I've heard, uh, comedians talk about this. I'm maybe you've experienced this. I'm sure you have, but like where you're on stage and you're almost seeing yourself have the experience and you're, it's not affecting you from like a, a negative like it's not getting into your subconscious. Like you're just, you're, you're experiencing it and you're aware of the experience and how beautiful it is, but you're still in it and you're still way in it. Yeah. And it's like, that's pretty cool. It's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 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Their coaches are in long term recovery and will be your partner, mentor, and spiritual guide to transcend these problematic behaviors. If you want to learn more about Valor Recovery, please visit them at www.ValorRecoveryCoaching.com or email them at admin. at ValorRecoverycoaching.com. Thank you. - We hear a lot about hallucinations while running actually. Have you experienced some of that? - I have, yes. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Anything good? - I saw Teddy bears hanging from a tree one time. I saw some Native Americans. I saw, there's a race where there was a road loop and there was an entire middle school of kids sitting cross-legged, cheering me on, putting their hand out for a high five. - No way. - It was wild. - Are you a Harry Potter guy? - Enough. - So you know those big spiders? - Yes. - There was one race where it was through a tunnel of trees and all of the trees started to turn into these massive spiders. - Yes. - It was nuts. - God. - It was, you know, yeah, that exactly. - Oh yeah, that's the snoop dogs right there. - And then, dude, that's that Tim Burton, that's beautiful. - Wow. - But then there was like out on in Germany, it wasn't like a physical depiction of anything like that. It just felt like I had been, which is weird to say because I was on that course for days on end, but it like felt like I had been on that course before. Like this nostalgia feeling was not like something in passing. It was like this constant state of nostalgia. I was like, I've been here before. I've seen this course before and I couldn't explain it. - Dude, I think everybody else could explain it that you just, you just run around it 300 times. - Yeah, it's understandable. But yeah, I mean, that's, yeah. Can you bring up different hallucinative experiences that happen with people as jogging of the strange and intriguing world of running hallucinations? I just want to get a few of these out. Emily Foy, ultra-trail, Dumon Blanc, it says, I was filling in my water bottle from a sheep's trough, red flag. I think that caused the hallucination. - That's a good call, dude. If, first of all, if I'm drinking water with sheep, I'm already not doing good. I was filling in my water bottle from a sheep's trough on the mountain at mile 70. I recalled when I saw tiny severed heads at the bottom, I looked around at my fellow runners expecting a similar reaction in panic, but they were all utterly calm, filling bottles and chatting. Oh, that would have pissed me off the most. I'm staring at baby heads and a trough and you're over there just-- - Digglin? - Yeah, just talking about how the Vikings are doing. Get out of town. Try as I might. I couldn't make the heads turn into stones, which my rational mind knew they must be. I couldn't stomach drinking, turned around, apologized to a golden retriever. Okay, a pile of dried grass, and I tripped over and continued up the mountain. It was broad daylight. That's that free shit I'm trying to get on. This is another one, Jin Scotney, North Traverse Race. I was 120 miles into 190 mile race and head and slept, going into the second night I started who hallucinating really badly when it got dark. My head torch was bouncing light onto the limestone walls where cats and human faces were appearing. Then I was so clear the stars were twinkling all around, but I was hallucinating that they were around my shoulders. On my own at 2 a.m., everyone else tucked up in bed, and here I was in the Yorkshire Dales shouting at the stars to get back into the sky. That's mad. Let me see one more here. This is John Hunt. I was going into the second night, so it was pretty wasted by then, and I was on a country road on this is in Tames. I was on a country road with trees either side. I was about 150 miles in, and remember thinking the trees looked really strange with weird bits hanging down. So I stopped and had a closer look to my amazement. It looked like someone else had strung up thousands of rotisserie chickens as far as the I could see. I was so confused by it that it took a closer look and went to grab one. Alas, it was just a leaf. Dude, one time, I was with my ex-girlfriend, and we went bike riding. This was in Germany, and dude, we went in this park, and some dude, he was like a, I guess like a wiener guy or whatever. He was standing in the park, and he had no clothes on, right? And he was like this tall white guy. And he was like kind of spinning his wiener at us, dude. And dude, this is the worst part. Her freaking bike broke down right there. And I'm like, oh, and I thought she was kind of doing it on purpose just to be around this guy. Not around this guy's wiener, but to see it more or whatever. And then the bike was like really broke, dude, and I'm like trying to like, so then we had to like walk this bike, but the back tire wouldn't move. So we had to like drag walk this bike past some dude, like legitimately spinning his wiener. Like at a decent gate, like creating vortex around that thing. Like I would say this, a butterfly couldn't land on it, right? A hummingbird couldn't even land on a poly. So that's some, but anyway, I don't know why I told you that. So that's why I don't run. But anyway, I just wanted to get that out there. Are there people that who does this sport, Mark? Like, is it business guys that just are looking, or become like and making a ton of money and they're looking for something new to do, right? Is it like, is it a certain body type? Like who were the, are there like stereotypes, you know? And not to say there's anything wrong with that. We're all somewhat of a stereotype. Are there stereotypes that are out there kind of DC? - Yes and no. There's a few different stereotypes. I guess like the business person who's that go getter, that they have to do everything a million miles an hour. That's also, that's a person that's out there. It's like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna achieve her. I'm gonna go achieve this other thing in this world called running and alter running. There's also people that, you know, they struggle, it's a big place of recovery. People that have struggled with addiction, alcohol, and they have that addictive personality and running has been the cure for them to not have that outlet, you know? Running does a great job of spiritually lifting you from maybe the burdens of everyday life. And so I think a lot of people find refuge in that. And, you know, and there's people, people like me who really have this desire to see what they're capable of. And I think, you know, Ryan, the driver, he asked a really great question yesterday and it was on this same line of thinking of, do you think anybody is capable of what you did out there? I think the short answer is, it depends because there's a guy, Mike Egan, who is in a wheelchair, he's lost both of his legs because he was in service for the United States. And he did the BPN go one more, which I was doing in April, and he did this last soul race in Germany. And he's in a wheelchair, the whole time. And if you would have told me before I ever met Mike, what do I think he's capable of? Be based on my own imperfections, I would have said, I don't, how can he go more than a few loops? And then I witnessed him persevere and overcome every obstacle on that course until rain totally destroyed it in the one in April, and he was dragging his wheelchair. Just the heart of a lion. And he comes out in this race, he sets a PR, I think he went 31 or 32 hours at this course. No way. And let's go, Mike. And so I see a man who does not allow his circumstance or the things that have happened to him, limit his belief about who he can become. Amen. And so I think anybody who has that belief about who they are, like I look up to Mike so much, because he has shown me what is possible when you face extreme obstacle. And so I think anybody who has that belief about themselves, then they can, as Mike said, find peace in the storm, because they're willing to put themselves out there no matter what. And so I think anybody who has that ability to look at life as this is not happening to me, this is happening for me. I'm going to figure it out. And Mike always says forward, onward, onward we go through the obstacle. And that's who I think is like, that's who it attracts at the end of the day, is people who want to find out who they are. Amen, dude. Wow, that's fascinating. And so even like if the course is uneven and stuff, he still manages it. Yeah, he finds a way. God. And what's funny about this is too is Harvey. Gosh, Harvey's a great guy. I could talk about him all day, but in the midst of what happened, the trail, so 40% of it was trail. And there were rocks all over it. And Mike was having a hard time going from the concrete to the rocky trail. So over the course of 40 hours, Harvey got a group of us together and would take one rock off the course every loop. So Harvey. picked up like 250 rocks over the course of his - Just trying to make it more fair. - Just to make it easier for Mike. - Right. - And make it more fair, really. - Yeah, yeah. - Because it's kinda like, dude, yeah, have them, at least every now and then, give them a little sigh of alley. (laughing) I was saying the guy's earned it. Give my HIV line. - Yeah, gosh. - I can't imagine how difficult that is. - Wow, that's fascinating, man. - But like that guy is the man. - Right. Thank you for sharing about him. - Yeah, can you pull that article up again, Trevor, please? A Texas-based veteran now holds a Guinness World Record for most miles covered in a wheelchair in 24 hours. On November 10th, 2025, Mike Egan, a bilateral amputee and wheelchair user. What does bilateral mean? It means, I don't know. - I don't know, both legs. - Yeah, I said I'll know, but covered 152.37 miles over 21 hours. Wow, completing 720 rotations around the course at Morgan's Wonderland Sports Complex in San Antonio with his family there to support. Let's go. - Guys, I mean, it's two children, too. That's awesome. - Yeah. - He's a former Marine, man. Thank you for your service, dude. Wow, Mike Egan. Oh, look at him there with that staff rock 'n' bro. (laughing) Mike, he got that word curtain on him. Let's do it, dude. - Bro, thank you, bro. Thanks for sharing about him. - Yeah. I want to get into, like, what are some of the different types of courses that they have in backyard running? Like, what are some of the tougher ones or more unique ones just so that listeners can understand, like, what backyard ultras are like? - Yeah. - Yeah, the backyard ultraspace is still growing. One of the more tougher courses is the original one that happens in Bell Buckle. Right? It's Bell Buckle. - Bell Buckle here in Tennessee? - Yeah, yeah. It's called Bigs Backyard. The originator last put it on, I think, in his backyard and it takes place every year. It's, I think, 400 feet of elevation per loop. And so there's courses that, you know, I know of one that I do in Wasau, Wisconsin that's 500 or 610 feet of elevation per loop. - So, elevation adds a ton of-- - Oh, it makes it so, so much more challenging. So much more challenging. So you could have like a flat course, like BPN or this course in Germany where it's gonna be demanding for different things. Like a flat course, you're not changing your running motion very much. So it's just staying in one place for a long period of time and that causes friction there. But then there's higher elevation courses where the race might not go as long. But you're climbing, you know, essentially Mount Everest in 24 hours and your quads are banged up, your hamstrings are banged up, your muscles are a lot more banged up. And the more this sport grows, the more we're gonna see challenges like, hey man, come to Minnesota in January. Let's see what a course looks like going across a frozen lake, you know, or go to Arizona in, you know, June or July, which might be a little bit dangerous. But you'll, I think what we'll start to see more of is, like what you see in motocross or some of these other sports where the temperature and environment you're in will dictate the course environment, which will determine what strengths and weaknesses an athlete truly has. - Well, so it's gonna start to see more strengths and weaknesses, a disparity of strengths and weaknesses because more variables will be introduced. Ooh, that's gonna be interesting. So we're still in the, we're still in the, the cusp of what that could be, but a lot of the courses generally are probably within 100 to 300 feet of elevation per loop. - Got it. And what are some of the severe temperatures that you've already been in? Have you been in any snow winds or whatever? - Not in the backyard. I did a race in January called the Arrowhead 135 and that's a historic Minnesota race, takes place in International Falls, Minnesota, which is right on the border of Canada. - Is that by Lake Itasco at all? - It's near there, near there, but. - 'Cause the Mississippi River starts right up there, you can jump right across it. - Yeah, you could. - Dude, some lady took me there one time. She was awesome, she, I don't know if she listened sometimes and I won't say her name, but she took me there one time and let me jump over the river. - Oh really? - Which was pretty cool, yeah. 'Cause I've eaten things out of that river. - Out of the Mississippi River? - Yeah. Hopefully more upstream. - Yeah, I mean, I've had some. - Downstream, it gets a little bit. - I mean, look, I put my tongue downstream a few times brother doesn't even well, you know? So one day at a time, oh, that's you right there. - Yeah. - Do an icebeard. - So it's a race, you run 135 miles, you got to carry a bunch of supplies on you. - Okay. - On a sled and the temperature this year was minus 30 degrees at the start line, Fahrenheit. - And how many miles is that? - That's 135. So that took 30. - Oh, so that has a finish line or the-- - That has a finish line. So I haven't done any extreme weather in the backyard. - Got it. - But I have experienced doing extreme weather at least in this capacity. - So wait, that was negative 30 degrees? - That, what you just saw was from last year's race, which was 15 to 20 degrees. This year's race was minus 30 degrees. So I've done it twice. - And how much does that affect things that weather difference? Do you even notice it after the beginning or what is that like? - Or is it more of just a visual effect? - Well, the warmer race I think is more difficult because the snow becomes like sand. So it's hard to-- - Your feet kind of move around. And it's nice because you're not as concerned about frostbite. But when it's super cold, it's like concrete running on. And like a softer concrete, but it feels much better to run on. But man, my hands were getting cold. I was shoving in my pants all race long. Just trying to keep them warm. And it really becomes a, how can I moderate the temperature of my body so that I'm not dying out here, type of thing? - And does it ever get, you ever run so much it just feels like home or erotic or anything out there? Like does things start to happen where you're like, I just ran like out of my own sexuality or something like, you know what I'm saying? How weird does things get like that like mentally? - Yeah, it does, it never turns sexual in my mind. But that's something I can think about on my next one and get back to you on. (laughing) - I mean, if you're really interested about that. - Don't get back to me. I'm just wondering like if you're out there. - I don't see you guys shaking their weenery like you do when you run, dude. - Bro, it was one guy. And I think my girlfriend even set it up or whatever. Anyway, I don't even know what we're talking about. Yeah, I just didn't know, 'cause sometimes at certain altitudes is something people are more likely to be gay. Different things can happen. I didn't know if people can run so much that you could like, more for whatever. Oh, I want to get a little bit of your backstory. So you were all state high school athlete and you played college football. When did running start for you? - Yeah, so I played collegiate football and lacrosse. And running started for me the spring of my senior year when it was club lacrosse. We actually played in Nashville. We played three games and we lost two out of the three games. One of them was to good old Kenasau state. - Not on. - Yeah, from Georgia? - Yeah, if that's where Kenasau states from. - I don't know where it's from, but hey, we'll go with it. Kenasau state, Georgia. And we never lost Kenasau state in our program's history. So it was a tough one. And it was the first game of the weekend. But we're, you know, busing back. It's a 24 hour bus ride back. And I'm sitting in the back of the bus like, we suck, I suck. We're not going anywhere. Throw in a pity party. And my brother sent me the Joe Rogan, David Gaggen's podcast. And I'm just listening to this man defecate down the back of his leg, piss and blood. And he's getting up and he's running another 30 miles to complete 100 mile run around a track. And it was the first time it had planted a seed in my mind about some person who was not allowing their situation to have them throw a pity party. Like we lost the first two games of the year. We still had a whole season ahead of us. And I'm listening to this man break himself and not make an excuse about it. So the first thing I did when we got back at three in the morning was I went out for a run. And that sort of just continued over the spring. And when I was no longer an athlete when I graduated school, you know, truthfully playing football on the cross was a great escape for me to take out the anger that I had. You know, I struggle a little bit with alcohol and college of just using it as a coping mechanism for not being able to sift through my emotional state. - Yeah. - And it would be this, the cycle that I was living in was get drunk on the Saturday night, wake up with regret and shame, walk around with that regret and shame, not wanna deal with that, bottle it up, come to Saturday game day and flick that pain on somebody else so that I didn't have to feel it anymore and then celebrate that by more drinking. And that was just the loop that I was living in. - Yeah. - Eventually, alcohol and the decisions I was making came to a point where I was like, I either need to make a change or I need to, like it was just a point where I was like, dude, I need to figure out my life. And then after school and I had no other thing to keep me occupied outside of work. work and life, running was a thing that was there for me. And I just noticed early on that the more I would run, the more I would come back from a run, and I would feel that heaviness in my chest, feel almost like gone, like the weight was off my shoulders, I wasn't caring around that anger. And so early on for me, running was this tool for me to kind of work through a lot of the emotional stuff that I was going through because it was, there was this this practical imagery that was going on is like the more I ran and the more I moved forward while I was thinking about the issues and the problems in my life, it was like I was moving forward mentally through them and also physically through them because I was thinking about them as I was moving on my run. And so it, it allowed me to kind of work through things and leave behind stuff that I wasn't as proud of and move forward through things that I wanted to become, ideas and conversations and just the life I wanted to live coming out of college. Yeah, well, when you get to the end of a run, the thoughts and feelings that you have are good. So it's almost like you like have, you've just sifted through and you're holding things that are good. Like if you're excited, you call somebody like, I'll whistle at somebody's cat or whatever, like you'll do all kinds of shit after a run, you're like rocking. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. You're left with the, you, you've kind of run into the best parts of you. Yeah. Um, okay. Sorry. Go on. No, that's, uh, so that was it. That's it. Like that's, that's, that was a start of it. It was just like, so that's how it started. Yeah. And then, you know, I signed up for a marathon and I think the competitor in me was like, all right, I did a marathon. Can I do 30 miles? Can I do 50 miles and started doing some charity runs to raise money and awareness for a nonprofit, uh, for love like Lori legacy. Yeah. I saw it was one of your friends. Mother's it passed away. Yeah. She passed away from Pinkrad, a cancer in 2020. What's her? Lori, Lori, Lori Weber. Lori Weber. Yeah. What was the guy's name? Blake Blake Weber. Yeah. Yeah. And that man, that, I think that was a real turning point for me and how I related to running and how I could basically have a relationship with this sport that was outside of outcomes and rewards, because that's all I focused on in college. Like, if we, the goals to win a national championship, if we didn't win a national championship, I was not worthy. We never won a national championship. So does that mean like, I'm going to rest of my life thinking that I'm not worthy of anything because I didn't get an outcome. And through these love like Lori runs, it was beautiful to be able to, I don't know what it's like to lose my mom. I'll never know what that feels like at least up until now, right? And at least not in the way that Blake lost his mom. And there's a lot of pain and a lot of hurt and a lot of working through emotional stuff where through these runs, we would get to walk and run side by side. And I would experience this physical pain that would force me to go internal and kind of deal with it that way. And at the same time, walk a line side, a brother who was also going through a different type of pain. And it was almost a point where we could now connect on how to talk and move through this pain together, even though they're different things. Because pain, pain is pain, right? If you're hurt, that's all you're experiencing. That's all, but we are connected by pain in a way where we can start to, like if I'm hurting, I'm better able to understand if you're hurting. If I've never experienced pain or hurt, I don't, I don't know how to relate to you. But when we can experience it together and be open and vulnerable about what we're going through and what we're struggling with, it was a phenomenal opportunity to see pain as not something to avoid, but to really like, all right, let's pull up our sleeves and like, let's get into that. Yeah, let's, let's figure out what this means. Amen, dude. Yeah, man, going on, like, I'll go on a walk with a friend or something like that. And it's like, that's when we get the most like, you know, it's like when you're doing it, just something in action. And they say our body, like, holds so much of our pain to, of course, if you're taking some action that is starting to call it that will, like in turn, like make your body have to process some pain, then it makes sense that it could also process some of the pain that's actual emotional pain that's being held in. Yeah. You know, I never really, I don't know if there's science behind that, but I'm sure that there is. But anyway, also, I don't know exactly what I'm talking about, but I never have either. I've heard you talk about using journaling as like, I don't want to say modality. I don't know what that word means, but I think I do. But as like, I guess it almost is like a written, like a confidant on your journey. Like, I've just heard you talk a lot about journaling and how you use it and how you've used it on your journey of, like, kind of self discovery. Sure. Can you kind of take me through some of that, like what, what that experience has been like? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so when I was going through, I talked about that moment in college where I had to reevaluate and actually take a look at, maybe it's not everyone else, maybe it's not every situation. It's me and my actions. I was nudged by our athletic trainer to go see a sports psychiatrist that would come to campus on Thursdays. And her practice for me was to get a journal and start writing in it. And what I noticed that I've been able to go back and read and see the process of my thoughts over a period of time is how hard I was on myself, how the voice for me back in the day was like, you idiot, you effing failure. You said you weren't going to do this thing and you did it again. And like, I would, I was so adamant about like, okay, I'm not going, you know, college kid, create the biggest sacrifice I made in college was my junior year for New Year's Eve. I said I wasn't going to drink hard alcohol, but I was going to drink beer, man, because yeah, like, I'll make a sacrifice, but not one that's enough where it's truly a sacrifice. Got it. And, you know, maybe maybe three months of like doing a good job on that, I'd have some hard alcohol and I would just beat myself up over it. Like, I can't believe you did this again, blah, blah, blah. And I guess the more I wrote the more I was able to understand what voice was playing in my head and recognize that, dude, maybe this isn't even my, like, why would I talk to myself this way? I wouldn't talk to you this way. I wouldn't talk to a friend this way. And so to see it all laid out and then to understand one, I'm not going to be perfect. Perfection is not something I can achieve. So I have to stop trying to chase that. It's not possible. And if I'm ever going to grow as a person, I have to release myself of this pressure of the need to be perfect or even the thought that I can be not possible. Yeah, dude. And when I hold myself to that, I'm holding other people to that. Yeah. And it keeps me away from people. It keeps me away from like, it keeps away from so many things, you know, because you're always in this place of like, there's some of like, uh, this isn't enough or something could be neat, something I know something needs to be different. Yeah. Well, and I think about the relationship with my life, the most, the times we've grown the most is when we've worked through conflict, the imperfections. And it's like, the imperfections are beautiful. They allow us to see ourselves in a new way. And when we can allow somebody into that experience, we can help each other find the best parts of who we are through our imperfections. And so journaling has been a really phenomenal practice for me to one, allow the thoughts, whether they're positive or negative, to get down on something. So they're not stuck in my head, rattling around, controlling like, I want to be present as much as I possibly can. Yeah. And if I got all these thoughts in my head, even if they're like really cool ideas, they'll, they're stuck in there. And I want to get them out so I can just leave them there and I can come back to them at a later time. So journaling has just helped me navigate a lot of the emotional stuff that's going on and also put together plans of, of who I want to become. Like, okay, if I know this isn't the voice I want, what type of voice do I want to have internally? Who do I want to let into my life that is, is going to hold me accountable, but also help encourage me and build me up. And how can I be that way for other people? Like, who have I been neglecting? All these, like, just life stuff. There's, you know, just, there's a good questions, man. Yeah, dude, I was like, I'm working with my sponsor right now and I have to write like a fears list, like things that I'm afraid of, dude, and it's crazy, dude. Like the things that I'm really afraid of, you know? You don't have to talk about them specifically, but I would never ask you to do that. But do you, are you, is there a fear that you have of actually pointing to the deep fears that you have? Like, I can get that way myself. That's why I ask is like, almost afraid to know the thing you're most afraid of because then it's there. Oh, wow. Like, would I even be [BLANK_AUDIO] brave enough to write the thing I'm most afraid of. - Even if it's just for you. - Right. - 'Cause then it's still. - Yeah. - Right. - Then you can't avoid it anymore. - That's where I get to. - Dang. - What are your thoughts on that? - That's frickin' wild. Like if there's a tiger behind these dangerous kittens over the down there, like if there's a mama cat in the bag, bro. Bro, if there is, I'm not gonna make it, bro. I wrote down like, a lot of mine are like, I'm trying to think, some of them are like kind of topical type things like I'm afraid I'm ugly, I'm afraid I don't like, I'll never have like the physique that I want or I'm afraid I'm not gonna be able to like, figure out my own stuff to be able to be like successful in a marriage, you know. And some of them aren't as strong as they used to be, but some I'm like, I mean, I probably have like 20 more. I think I wrote down like maybe 25 things that I'm really afraid of. Let me think of what's a real, real one. You know what I've always been afraid of, man? I've always been afraid of that I'm wasting everybody's time. And I don't even know where that comes from, but it makes everything else tough because it makes everything else feel like it has to happen fast. And I've always been afraid of that. And I don't even know if it's a, I write it as a fear and maybe it shouldn't have been written down as a fear, but it was just like a thing, but it's like something that like, yeah, when I put it together, I'm always afraid that I've been wasting somebody's time. My whole life I felt like there's this to-do, like I got given a to-do list at like six days old and there's like 200 million things on it. And I'm, you know what I'm saying? Like it's an invisible like, like, oh, you're late. Like my whole life that's been like somebody like this in the distance. And it's like, what? But, you know, I don't know. So that's probably a bit like, yeah, or maybe I'm afraid I'm wasting their attention. Maybe that's part of it too. Yeah, like if you're gonna give me your attention, I don't wanna waste it. So that puts like a lot of like, I think probably especially with dating when I was like, when I was in high school college, like that put a ton of like in my 20s to put a ton of energy on that. 'Cause it was like, I don't wanna wait, you know. So then you gotta figure everything out pretty quick and that isn't allowed for like anything to really, you know, kind of grow, it makes things hectic. I don't know, I'm just, some of this, I'm just thinking out loud, yeah. One thing that I've noticed through this conversation that I really appreciate about you is you're unafraid. Whether you're doing it on purpose or not, of like speaking out loud and working through these thoughts in real time, I, there's no expectation that you need to have the perfect dancer or like, man, you're working through this thought. And I've noticed a few times you say like, I don't know anything. You know a lot in the way that you think through life, that in and of itself is extremely valuable. So I just wanna encourage you in that. - Thanks. - Like that is super, it's helpful for me to recognize that I don't need to have all the answers. - Yeah, I think I would get afraid to speak 'cause I didn't know, you know, I think at times, or you have to per like, I don't know. Like sometimes, yeah, you feel like you're like, well thanks for saying that, yeah. Yeah, I used to, I feel like I was better at doing that. I used to feel I think, even with podcasting, I think it started to get like, you know, you have a pressure to wanna do good or to be at a certain level. And so I think sometimes I got, you know, I don't know, yeah, maybe sometimes at times, I was like, oh, I need to be able to know more than, you know. - What do we know about that? - I know. - And it's our first time, dude. How often, bro? My friend Megan, she's a therapist up in Portland. And she's always like, it's our first time. It's like, this is our first time being alive. Like that we know of, you don't say it like. It's like, and we're like, if we're all around there's so much expectation, but our society puts it on us. And then we, you know, some of us do, but yeah, it's like, yeah, I used to do it better. At times I've done, I've done, I feel like I've been a little more patient with my own thought process. And I used to enjoy that. - Yeah. - And so, thanks for the reminder to even like, yeah, it's a good thing, I wanna get back to that a little bit more. Like being like, I'm okay, I'm just figuring this out. - Yeah. - You know, that's pretty cool. - That is pretty cool. - What, I wanna talk to you about quitting, okay. You had like, I'm paraphrasing here, but I've told this to like 10 people in the past week. I'm like, he says that when he's thinking about quitting, he'll think of himself like two days later or something in like a comfortable space with as much food and as much like love and content and whatever he needs will all be there. And he asks that person, should I quit? What do you say? - Yeah, I just forecast that comfortable version myself that's out of the painful experience. And I asked that version of myself, would he be proud of the effort that I put in if I stepped off the course right now? I think more often, at least every time I've asked that question, I can't honestly look at that person and say, you did everything you could out here. And it's my way of removing myself from the pain because the pain in the discomfort is a narrative. It's this like thing that's trying, like we crave comfort. We crave to get out of discomfort. It's hard for us to do that. And even when we're in the midst of it, it's like that's when it's most difficult. So I try and pull myself out of it and-- - So you'll be running and you'll have this, will you actively take a process of thinking? - Bro, I will lay down on the course and I will put my head in my arm and I will visualize myself that like, whether it's a hotel, whether it's a friend's house, I will visualize myself. - Oh yeah, spa. - And it could be a spa. And I'll just ask that version, like, hey, are we doing everything we can out here? And the answer is always, no, you have more in you. Like that version would say, dude, get up and keep moving. - That version's also just chilling at that house, dude. I respect that version and I know what you're saying, but in a physical way, that version is like, but no, I hear what you're saying though. Like, yeah, would that version, like, is that version gonna, just to have a, but the biggest thing is just having that communication, like, in two days there's another me. That's in a different space. And how does he view what's going on here? - Because it's like, it's a different version, but it's the same version. - Yeah. - That version still has to live with the decision that this version makes. - Yeah. - And dude, that's life. - That's life. It's like, whenever we're confronted with a difficult decision, if you can pull yourself out, whatever you decide to do, the future you has to deal with those decisions, as long as you can be proud of it, no matter what the outcome is, you're good. - Have you developed a, 'cause I'm sure you probably face a lot of moments that you wanna quit, right? Have you developed like a relationship with the part of you that wants to quit? - Mm-hmm. Like I'm saying, does that voice come along so much? 'Cause like, say I'll be lifting weights in it. Like, even this morning, I got a bro early and I got my stuff done. And I noticed like, okay, there's this early voice in me, I wanna quit. So, and I'm like, sometimes I'm not gonna breeze right through that voice. I know that's just a bullshit. That's a hitchhiker. That guy doesn't even, that voice doesn't even have a home. That thing is just some lame as quitter voice out here, with a thumb up, right? That voice isn't shit, that voice is just like, it's eating chips, first of all. So I know, but then I'll start to notice, I'll just start to notice some of the secondary ones. And so I don't, like, but I'm, at least now I can notice that first one. It's just like, it's not, it's total like placebo. But what are the ones that you notice? 'Cause you've gone to some depths that are pretty intense to keep going. Yeah, so very similar to you, those first 24 hours, that voice and that person that wants me to quit is like that comfort quit, where it's like, eh, I haven't really invested enough. And, you know, let's just like, let's just step off. But it's easier in a way to get over that, 'cause you can call out the BS, you see it. Like I said, the hitchhiker, it's not, doesn't have a home. The deeper you go in, the more I feel, it is a direct confrontation with who I am at my core. And so the deeper you go, the more it's hard, the more difficult I feel like it is to sift through, am I actually making an excuse in this moment or is this something I seriously need to consider because I'm going real deep and dark in this moment. I don't see it necessarily as like a psycho where I'm seeing like two versions of myself and my mind. But more, can I take one step? I can I just sit in this painful experience and know through experience that there is light on the other side of this darkness. And have faith, have faith that I will get there as long as I continue to move forward. And so it's more of just combating that narrative and all the other narratives that go on and say, I'm looking at my feet right now. Mm-hmm. If my feet are moving forward, that is evidence that the story in my mind is not the full truth. Can I just keep looking at my feet move forward? And we do that sometimes out there. Yeah. Yeah. You'll just sit there and watch and move forward. I'll just watch and move forward. Even if the inside of you and your head is like, I can't do it, your feet are saying we can do it. Wow. Because usually it feels like it's the other way around when you quit. In what way? Like, isn't it like, sometimes it'll be my brain. Oh, no, maybe not. Well, your body like breaking down and but that's a real quit. That's like you can't do it. Yeah. Do that's broad. That's crazy, bro. So you just keep proving to yourself with one next step that you can until your brain follows suit again. Yeah. And it'll come back around like the narrative will be like, Oh, he's proved it over the last 20 hours. We can stop feeding him this BS. It doesn't mean that you've completely overcome it. It might come back around. But it is, it's that right there. It's like, okay. And like every step, it's boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So it's like constant evidence. It's constant evidence. It's not until I make this loop, I'll be able to prove to myself that I can go, it's, how can I break it down so that I'm giving myself evidence so fast that the narrative doesn't have an opportunity to like build on itself. Oh, that's wild. Yeah. Because sometimes that thing is so strong. You need that much evidence. Yes. Yeah. They say that in like recovery programs all the time. They say like, you can't think your way in the right action, but you can act your way in the right thinking. Yes. And it just makes me think of that. Yeah. Can I just take one more step in this direction? Huh. Yeah. I can. Yeah. And most of the time, that's the answer is yeah, I can. Um, what are you not good at, Mark? Because if we keep sitting up here, massage with each other's egos is not going to be cool. So what are you not good at? I think that or where do you have, where do you struggle? Where are some places that you struggle? I think I struggle with understanding that it's not all about me. The ego is so scary. It is very scary and it's like a shadow that gets long. You don't even notice it. It's like the more light that gets shot on you, this shadow kind of gets longer and you don't even really notice it and you turn around and this is and people are like, you're an asshole. You're like, okay, well, let me figure it out. But no, but no, the ego is a scary thing because you don't really know how it grows or what causes it to grow sometimes. You know, and the I can try and convince myself that I'm doing a good job of maintaining it. But that can also feed my ego. Right. Because if look, I'm doing a good job of maintaining it. Yes. Who's doing that? I am. Fuck. I think that's what's kind of happened to me over like, yeah, dude, it's like, I don't know, it's interesting. But that's all the journey, too. It's like, yeah, I don't attach myself to a ton of experiences. I kind of feel like it's just everything's just like an experiment sort of that I'm in. But like a claim is an interesting thing. You know, being acclaimed for something, having a claim for something. Like being applauded or yeah, okay. Yeah, because it's scary. Yeah. You know, because your ego will sit there and just listen to that all day. Yeah. And it's hard to like, even if you try it, like I can tell myself the applause don't matter. But it's almost like my ego or the DNA still picks it up, picks up that frequency. It's like, I don't care what you say. We're going to still try and build the up a little bit. Yeah. Like a little gremlin in the dark. It is, dude. Yeah. How much have what's your relationship been like with your own ability to create discipline for yourself? I find myself struggling with that. So I struggle with the word discipline so weird, because I just see it as discipline is doing the basic things consistently. And sometimes that's hard for me to do. So I try and implement strategies where I can outsource that discipline. So in order to be a good runner, I'm lifting weights. And I got my buddy Austin Yokem who is a guy I played football with. And he's got his own gym in Minneapolis. And he's one of my great buddies. And he's the expert in the gym. If I tried to be the expert in the gym and go to like a planet fitness or some place and try and do that on my own, I wouldn't have the discipline to do it because motivation isn't there. And motivation is like a feeling where you can't rely on that. So for me. So motivation is not something you can rely on. You don't. At all. I don't rely on motivation at all because it's how often are you motivated? Like, yeah, you never. I don't know. Like the more you do something, the less motivation plays a factor. And dude, sometimes I get motivated and I'll be like, oh, dude, I'm motivated. I'm fine. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great. He's like, I'm good today. No, I'm feeling for one moment. I don't need to go do anything. I'm already doing good. And then I'll do anything. I love that. I love these things. That's crazy. I never thought about that shit, bro. So I show up in the morning to Yokem's to lift. And all I have to do is show up. And what's his gym call? Yokem strength. Yokem strength. Yokem sounds like he's. That's his last name too. He's this huge dude with long hair. Oh, yeah. Land of 10,000 neck. Land of 10,000 traps. Yeah, bro, dude. Bro, a mouse won't go near his back. Bro. Yokem, that's him. Oh, dang, bro. You could probably sell his seam on the market. And that's illegal too, people. But anyway, so I go to him. So you out, so you trust him? I trust him. I don't have to think about my weightlifting. All I have to do is show up. And then when I'm there, I know that I'm in a space where if I give my best effort, I'm going to get the results because I trust him to do that. Got it. For running, I don't have a coach. And I am really bad at saying, all right, I'm going to set this schedule for this week. And I'm going to do 70 miles. And I'm going to do 10 this day and seven this day. Yeah, that's Austin right there. Oh, it's up Austin. And so what I do is I outsource that there's this challenge called the calendar club challenge. And it's where you run the number of miles equal to the day of the month. So on the first, you run one mile, then two miles, then three all the way up to 30 or 31 miles at the end of the month. You have to run every day. And for me, it's great because I know every mile I'm running for the entire month. I don't have to think about it. And it's a good challenge because towards the end of the month, you're starting to run a lot of miles that then help prepare me for our 60 of a backyard ultra when my legs are tired, my brains tired. I'm missing sleep a little bit more. I'm fatigued. I'm under fueled because I'm burning so many calories and trying to maintain all of that. And so calendar club is like, now that's my discipline because I don't have to think about it. I've outsourced the thought process or, you know, if I don't feel like running today, well, I got 20 miles to run today. I got to go do that. I don't have a choice in this. Got it. So you just made the commitment and you're in and then you don't worry about all the extra curriculars of it. No, that's a lot. Yeah, because that's too much sometimes. I don't want to think. I do enough. Thinking does not help us. So it doesn't. I started to notice this a little bit. Sometimes I'm just like, my brain's running, but I'm not thinking. And when I start to notice that, I'm like, that's not, that's not the best thing because that's just my brain. It's like, it's just bullshit or whatever. It's just like smoking or whatever. I don't know what my brain is doing right now, but it's just like, it's like throwing old thoughts at me. Don't you feel bad about this? Remember this dude or what? But it's not like usually fun stuff. So it's usually just kind of like try. It's like a jujunk folder of an email. Okay. Yeah. It's like the guy with the wiener and he's got the controller in his hand dude. It's like, give me back that controller. Oh, this is all just park wiener. Yeah. Yeah. Get this guy out of here. Yeah. Yeah. This guy is out of my head. Yeah. That's what you do it. And he had a crazy, the wiener seemed crazy. I only looked at it once. But you didn't get a second look. I don't remember. I would have kept my second. I mean, I could draw it for you on a napkin if I had to. But what I'm saying is I only looked at it once, dude. And I was helping my girlfriend. Yeah. But anyway, uh, yeah, dude, it was just a, I mean, it was just like broad daylight in a park. But anyway, what I'm trying to say here is, but yeah, that's not thinking, right? That's my brain just spinning around. So then I start to like, if my brain starts to think a little bit, like I'm actually thinking, like, oh, what do I think about this or how can I solve this or what's going on? I'll start. I want to try and like, I want to start start like saying, "Oh, thank you, brain." 'Cause then it's like, "Oh, good, I'm gonna start thinking more." 'Cause I think just with like phone and just life, you get so caught up. Like a lot of times I'm not even thinking, I'm just like, "I don't know what I'm doing." Yeah. Like I like my brain things 'cause it's doing something cool. It's like, "How can we do this or what's going on?" Or, "Here's somebody's birthday today," or somebody just got, you know, three years of recovery, or somebody's heading off to like a psilocybin, journey, just little things so I can call and congratulate just little things so my brain just not fill with my bullshit, right? Yeah. It's like, "Dude, if I get a thawed in the morning of somebody else, and it's not me, dude, it is like, oh, dude, it's like my heart just got like a Christmas present. Like the other day I woke up and I was thinking of my sister, and it was like the best, and I don't mean that in a weird way, but it was like the best thing ever." I was like, "Oh, so nice to wake up thinking about somebody else." Have you found ways to cultivate that? Yes, for me recently, it's been having a gratitude list, and people say gratitude list all the time, but I don't think just writing things down, it doesn't help me. I have to write like, like I'll say, like yesterday I was writing, I'm thankful for my friend Curtis, right? So then I'll think, "Why am I thankful for my friend Curtis?" Well, I'm thankful for when we go on walks together, and we talk about stuff, we'll talk about faith, we'll talk about what's really going on in our lives, and so then I'll think about that, I'll think about, "All right, that's me, Curtis, we're walking, we're talking about this, we'll joke around, you know, like we'll laugh a little bit, we'll get serious, we'll share about things that have meant something to us, we'll go see his son play football, I'll think about that, and I'll think, "Oh, I get to sit in the stands, he's down there on the field, he's coaching his son, like how much pride he feels, his wife's in the stands, she's cheering, they got some ridiculous lady that keeps blowing one of those horns or whatever, but I'll attach a lot of thoughts to it, and those thoughts make me feel something, so now I'm have a gratitude list, but I'm feeling something about it, like this morning I wrote also, "Oh, I'm thankful for the doors in my house, and so I thought about, how do I feel when I open certain doors? How do I feel when I walk through them?" Right, so just trying to attach like actual moments to just the writing, and that's just been helping me somehow, I think it's just, I'm just cultivating a little bit more that, I'm not saying I'm perfect or anything about it, or anything, shit, I'm barely, you know what I'm saying, we out here, but that's a cool thing that I started to do, and then here's the crazy part, I start kind of liking it. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm like, dude, I woke up and I was like, "What is something I can be thankful for?" And I didn't think that two months ago, I've always had a decent practice of it, but this is something else. Yeah, here's, he just has the, thanks for pulling this up, Trevyn. Ultimately, gratitude is more complex than merely expressing courtesy or focusing on positive thinking. When you regularly focus or meditate on what you are thankful for, it causes effects that promote well-being, including psychology and physical health. Gratitude affects the amygdala, which regulates the SNS, not sure what that means, and our anxiety responses, regularly joining about gratitude, or discussing it as part of a group, have long been parts of successful life coaching approaches. It reduces depression. That's something I do think maybe I'm getting ill. I hate talking about stuff, but if I'm new to it, because I'm afraid it's going to go away. Well, okay. What I witnessed in you when you were talking about it, it's like your eyes were closed, and it was almost like you were back in that experience walking with your friend. Yeah. And you were back in that moment where you felt all that gratitude. So it was almost like, it was crazy watching this, because it was like you were pulling out that experience, and you were feeling it right now. Yeah. And it's like, "Oh, wait. The more we feel, the things we're most grateful for." It's like, "Man, that's going to carry with us." Yeah, dude, that's the thing. Like, I don't know. I'm just started the practice of it. I've probably been doing it about two months now, maybe six weeks, but it's just feeling good. And I have started to like it a little bit more. And the craziest thing is, I used to be able to only think of a few things I'm grateful for. And now it's like, I'm be able to think of more. Hmm. So I don't know. It's been interesting. I'm sure in two days, I'll just be vaping and laying there, touching myself for no reason. But for now, I feel like maybe something new could be going on. I heard you had a post this the other day that I thought was really cool. And you were talking, this is on Instagram, I think. And you were just talking about how things in your life wouldn't be possible without Jesus Christ, without your faith. Yeah. How is faith like played a role? And how did faith like starting your life? Yeah. I mean, I grew up going to Catholic, you know, I was Catholic grade school, altar boy, all that stuff, stoked about funerals. That's why you're fast if you're an altar boy. Yeah. Sorry. I'm like, you're a little sorry, Pat. It's like, hey, hey, it's okay. Sorry, Bishop. Yeah, you got a bishop coming on next week. You're going to have to explain yourself. And he's from Minnesota. Oh, really? Yeah. From Minnesota to some. You're going to have to explain yourself to him. That's true. So went through that, went through Jesuit high school, went through, you know, it was a Catholic university, but never felt like it was a choice that I was making. And in high school, I struggled for a number of different reasons, but I struggled making strong, deep-rooted connections with people. So I always felt like an outsider. And so I always felt like, in order for me to be a part of this group, I have to predict how I think they want me to live and be like. And the amount of, I don't know if I'd call it anxiety, but like, it was this scared mindset of like trying to predict how they wanted me to act and always getting it wrong. And then trying to figure, like, I was always living up in my head, thinking I knew what was going up on you in your mind and trying to live that way. Oh, yeah. Bro, you're like an EMT, dude. Yeah, when you're living like that, you were literally like an EMT. You're just like sitting there, like, you're like a response team. Yes. It's like, how do I respond? I mean, yeah. That shit's hectic. Some of that could be being young, but I think also that it's, uh, that it's interesting that you were noticing that. Okay, go on. And so leaving high school, I had sort of made this quiet promise with myself that I didn't want to feel that way again. And so I chased acceptance. I was like, I'm going to do whatever it I can to get people to like me and not live this way anymore. And a lot of things were like, be successful in sports, drink and have a good time. And, you know, I would let my friends shoot me with a blow dart, being drunk or shoot me with a BB gun, because that was fun. I was, I was, I was the center of attention. Yes, you know, it showed me. Yeah, dude, hatched me. Exactly. Cut off my leg. Who cares, bro? Let's go. And, uh, and that worked for a while. You know, that, that works. And eventually that led me into a place where I was like, you know, getting in trouble with alcohol, having regrets, having shame, um, talking about, you know, the things that I talked about earlier of just like bottling up emotions and having that come out in negative ways. That's shame's crazy, bro. Oh, it's wild. It'll do some dark things to you. It's crazy. I think most of our country, I don't know. I think a lot of us are living in shame, especially, uh, man, because of probably pornography and stuff like that. And how it's just been able to be so accessible, you know, like how it was just like, I don't know. Imagine how much shame is rocking around out there. And how shame can be used to control you. Yeah, this is wild, uh, in my spam, in my email. This is like a couple months ago. Someone was trying to, uh, what do you call it? Like hold me hostage for like Bitcoin. They're like, you got to pay us this amount because we saw you through your camera watching porn. No, and I gave up watching porn when I started following Christ a little over two and a half years ago. And I'm grateful for that. And I thank God for that because maybe in the darkness of me doing that consistently and feeling that shame, I would have allowed that shame to control me. And but I'm set free from that now. Uh, and I know that's a lie because that's not something that I do anymore. And it's just like how many people are falling to that. Yeah. And how you wouldn't, I hope I don't get it. Um, but bring that up if that's a scam right now. Let's take a peek at it. I'm 29 days off of pornography right now. Good. Good. So I'm feeling it's the most I've done in a long time. I can't even believe it. It's freeing. But I'm going to keep believing it. Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah. Instead of just being like, I can't, I'm just going to keep believing it. Um, uh, reports of scammers claiming they recorded people watching pornography via their web camera, widespread form of extortion, known as sex, sex extortion. The threat victims receive an email or letter claiming a hacker took over their computer, activated their webcam and recorded a split screen video of them viewing explicit websites. Yep. The scare tactics scammers often include an old password stolen from a past corporate or website data breach. Wow. In the email subject line, our body to trick the recipient and to believe their device is fully compromised. Some advanced variants even include a Google Street View image of the victim's house to induce panic. That's crazy. The demand, the sender threatens to send the fabricated video to the victim's family, friends, or co-workers unless a ransom, usually paid in Bitcoin or another cryptocurrency, is sent with a strict deadline. Oh my God. Wow. I didn't know this was happening, dude. It is a bluff. Cybersecurity experts, cyber security experts, and law enforcement agencies note that their claims are almost always entirely false. The scammers do not have a video of you. Do not have access to your webcam and generally do not possess your content list. Data is bought and spoofed. The password used as proof was bought cheaply off the dark web from old unrelated leaks and the email addresses often spoofed to look like it came from your own account. That's crazy. I didn't know all that was going on, did you? I did just for my experience. Right. Wow. Dude, I'm glad we talked about that because I can't even imagine, every dude I know would send at least $30 or $60, $80, or something like that, or at least $140, I mean, every dude I know would continually, or not every, but a lot of dudes have fallen prey to it and to think your webcam. Oh, man. Well, it's at least for me at that time, it was aimed at fulfilling a need that I thought that I could fulfill with something worldly, and yes, pleasure in that regard, yes, acceptance from people in high school and trying to change that in college and chasing achievement and getting to a point where none of these things fulfilled me. And I think, I feel really encouraged and compelled to like, man, there's a lot of things that we think that are going to give us what only God can give us. And I think it's interesting that porn is something that is kind of commonplace and yet it is being used against us. And I think that is something that is important because I did feel shame around it. And I think the answer wasn't to pretend to not feel shame around it. It was to reconcile why I feel shame around it and understand that there's a better way to honor life and honor my thoughts and bring them closer to what God would want them to be. Yeah. And you just have, we had my friend on here who's a poor, he's a pornography recovery coach, right? And he's amazing, dude. He's the greatest dude. He's been through so much. But just all the things at hijacks that we don't even realize, it's like the way then that you look at your spouse the way that you communicate with women in general. Just the energy you bring into the world even, you know, like even if I've been yurking off or whatever, if I'm going out in the world, my energy is just different. So it's like, I don't know, it's not a pressure to make anybody feel bad. But just like, yeah, it's, it is, it is like a, it is like, it's your own spirit. And it's like, and this greater energy of like, of a connection with God that you could just, that I believe you could disconnect it from. I felt like I was a slave to it like in the, in the, it was habit for me. Yeah. And it's like, you close the door, you close the shades. It's like everything about it made me feel like I needed to hide myself from the world. Yeah. And then you take, I would take that with me. And like you said, like people that you would see, women that you would see, it would change how I viewed them, and it would change how I viewed my spouse. That's that. Yeah. Yeah. It's all damaging. And I think the way they interact with all that stuff just has an effect. That's what I'm saying. That's what I mean. I just mean like, if somebody's like realizing, man, I'm having trouble in my relate, I'm trouble in trouble. Even just like being around my kids or going to do something fun or having more time for all of that gets affected, I think, or the little side effects we don't notice. What about like sexual like activity before a race? Will you not engage? Like what is that like? Because for boxers, they say that that's a thing, you know? What's it like for a marathon runners? Because if I'm going to run 95 miles, maybe it's better if my wife's waiting for me there at the end than if I just left out of a room, you know? Yeah. I actually haven't thought about that too much. Really? It's not on your radar. No. Huh. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I interrupted you about when you were talking about your relationship with God. Yeah. I wouldn't say interrupt. But we, yeah, I would say through chasing all of these different things that I thought would fulfill me, I would come up empty and for me, it was, you know, I was running around thinking that running was going to be the thing that would give me fame and sponsorships and financial freedom and all of these things that I thought I wanted and none of it was happening for me. And I felt empty. And you just weren't achieving those things? Yeah. I wasn't, they weren't coming in the way that I wanted them to. And even in the ways that they were, it wasn't enough to keep me happy and joyful. It was almost like it was doing the opposite. And wow. So did you almost like, did it get to a point where you're almost going to quit running at one point? Not necessarily quit, but have a try and figure out what the point of me running was. Got it. I'd started doing the charity runs with my friend and have this beautiful relationship. And then somewhere along the way, it became this avenue of like, well, I want to be professional at this in an order to be a professional. I need followers, money, and sponsors, right. And those yes are like tangible things that help you become a professional, but I was chasing them for their end like for what they could do for me. And yeah, I was on a run and I was listening to a podcast with Cameron Haynes and Sally McCray. And they were talking about how in the deepest, darkest moments during the races that they were reminded that they are made by a strong creator and that they are that creator, that strength is in them because they're made in his image, image in his likeness. Wow. That thought, I was like, maybe this is, this is something that I need to think about. I didn't know how to do that, but it was a thought that was put on my heart. And not even five miles later, I come across a friend, his name is Vince. I hadn't seen him in a year and he's sitting by the lake, reading a Bible and I'm like, what's up Vince? Like, how you doing? What are you doing out here? What brings you out here? I have fallen from my faith and something about today, the Holy Spirit put on my heart that I need to come here and I need to read scripture. And the verse he was reading when I interrupted him was in the book of John and it's on paraphrasing but it said, the reason you do not know God is because you are not of God. And to me it hit me like a ton of bricks, like I didn't know what was going to fulfill me. I was chasing all of these things and they weren't, they weren't doing it. And now I have the thought of like, well, what is, what is a relationship with God look like? And that scripture was like, well, if you want to find out, go find out, go do something about it, go take action, join a men's group, go, go to church, go to some place that you can learn more about understanding what the kingdom of God is all about. And from that point I started actually taking steps forward. It's like if you want to build a relationship with a person or a spouse, you don't do so by staying distant from them. You get to know them, you talk to them, you learn about how they love and how they are calling you to live and how they're calling themselves to live. And that's what I started with was just like, hey, okay, let me open the Bible, I've never done that before. Yeah, me crack it open, yeah, what is that even me? And those Bible's up in Minnesota, they sound like a, like a, a kind of beer when you open them some of them, you know, there's a lot of beer up there. Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you did not belong to God. Yeah. And so I wanted to hear God, man, I, I, because I tried everything. Oh, there you go, dude, that's it, I tried everything. What else is there to, you know, like, yeah, like when do I admit that to myself, you know, like I tried everything, I tried everything, I tried to do it my way, yeah, or I just tried everything, you know, it's crazy to think that God made us because He loved us, you know. That's one of the wildest things or it's not wild, but it's like, yeah, the other day we're at this Bogota Bible study and they have, uh, they were just talking about asking God what you could do for His kingdom, you know, and like sometimes if you can really get in a good space and really ask that, just I'd never thought about it before, you know, just like really asking God, what can I do for you, you know, like sometimes you can really get in a space where you really feel like a connection, you know, sometimes you're just, you know, I'm saying, you got to be, you know, there's 30 miles on the counter, it's the 30th of the month and you've got to hit the road, you know, and you're drive through praying. like in the, you know, you're just greeting coffee at the window. But sometimes you go inside the McDonald's of the Lord and you really get in there on your knees and use, yeah, I don't know. But yeah, it's like, man, God, what can I do for you? You know, yeah, it's kind of cool. Because then you could, you could get to do something and it's not for yourself. Yeah. Sometimes it's flipping burgers in the back. I know sometimes it's in the place, the place center. Yeah, dude, sometimes it's just being an adult that's sitting in the ball pit vaping you. That's, that's where God asks you. But no, I don't know. I think there is like, I don't know, you know, there can be like some excitement. And like, yeah, there's excitement in that space. If you're, if you can, if you can get there with it. I think there's excitement in that space of like, yeah, what could God want me to do? You know, who could he put in my life that there could be some new way to learn or, I don't know. It's just easier when it's like, like, maybe if something good happens, it's not just with, I'm just, I'm not the only one to sit there and you can be like, Oh, thanks, God. You know, it's like, Oh, that's cool. It's like, I'm not the only one. It's not just, oh, yeah, otherwise, I'm just sitting there by myself. Oh, that was cool. That was neat, you know, but it's like to have somebody to share something with. Do, when, when you were thinking about that in that space, were there clear answers that came up for you? Um, no, not really. I think it was just like, I felt just grateful that I was thinking about it. You know, yeah, I think it's just better than sitting there with my thoughts and my thoughts are just my own. Yeah. You know, I think it just feels like some reprieve. Um, yeah, so I think that's kind of where I'm at with like some of the relationship with God or like kind of like what's going on with me with it, I guess. I don't know, it's always a little bit different. Um, but yeah, I don't know if I'd have even thought I exactly have this conversation. Right. You know, so I think it's just like thing, little things you start to notice, you know, and I'm in a Bible study, man. Uh, you know, this, this thing that was like kind of nice that happened. There's this musician, his name is Zach John King. And I think he just had a new album that came out, actually, but he had, uh, there's this new book. It's called Theo on Golden. Okay. It's by Alan Levy or Alan Levi. Okay. And it's about an old man who goes into this, uh, sort of who goes into this coffee shop in this town called Golden. But anyway, my buddy Zach, John, my buddy Zach had given me this book and he'd, uh, and it was wrapped up in paper and he said, Oh, my dad really loved this book and he thought that you would like it. So he gave it to me as a gift. And I just put it on my truck and like two weeks later, his father passed away. It was like a sudden heart attack. Um, and then two weeks after that, I realized I still had this book in my truck. I'd never opened it up and I opened it up and his dad had written in it. It was just like, uh, I'm so grateful you and my son are friends. And I'm so grateful that you guys are learning about God together. Wow. And it was just like this. Like, uh, I don't know. It was just like, it's just like little things, you know, um, but it was like a nice moment that he and I got to have that his father was like, you know, his father's still alive here through these words. And, um, I don't know. I'm kind of not doing the story justice, but no, you are. It was pretty special and he's a special guy. And it kind of just gave us a like this little connection, you know, so it's just interesting. Um, I don't know. It's all kind of interesting. I get scared to talk about some of that kind of stuff because sometimes Christian people can be like, you know, they can nail you to the cross. Yeah, he already did that for us. You know what I'm saying, bro, put your toolbox down, Karen. So that's on sometimes it's like, uh, I don't know, some of that stuff. I get nervous talking about it in some ways. I know I shouldn't. I don't get nervous talking. I think maybe like in a public way, yeah, does it make a sense to you? It does make sense to me. And it brings up what you said earlier is like, I have a fear of, I don't know enough. So I feel like the knowledge of it, like almost like I have to have a certain knowledge of it to be able to talk about it. And like, if that's what you say, like you get nailed to the cross, like, this is where I'm at in the, in my faith journey. Yeah. And this is what I know, which is not very much. Yeah. But I'm still curious about it. Yeah. And some of the stories dude are not even that good. I'm going to go ahead and say that straight up, bro. I'm no doctor, sus or whatever, or like frickin op or whatever. But some of the stories in there, it's like, bro, this is a B side track, dude, let's be realistic. So I think I'm focusing on like the hits right now, you know, but the hits are good, dude. But that's what hits it. The hits are good. Yeah, they hit the hits hit, bro. But yeah, not to be ashamed and also to be transparent. I don't, you know, like, there's been times where like, like, faith is kind of coming to my life in some ways. And then it's going away. Yeah, you know, and I don't know what that's like. I don't know, but yeah, like I had this like, I don't know. I had some found some other numbers on sex torsion. If you wanted to read these off, we can plug it in. Yeah, dude. I didn't even know. Let's get back. Okay. Great. Thank you so much. Oh, these are key says sex torsion is one of the fastest growing online crimes in the world with long force. When in safety organizations reporting an unprecedented surge in cases over recent years, while it's difficult to map the exact global numbers estimated 98% of cases go unreported due to their fear and shame. I could totally see that. The explosion reports, the National Center for Missing and Exploded Children in the United States received 26,718 sex torsion reports via its cyber tip line in 2023, a massive jump from 10,700 reports in 2022 and just 139 in 2021. So it's growing. NC MEC now averages roughly 812 reports of sex torsion per week. Teenage impact research from youth advocacy organization Thorn indicates that one in five teenagers report experiencing some form of extortion online, other youth studies placed the rate around one in 20. Dude, that's got to be horrible for kids. Teenage boys and young men are most at risk. Young men age 14 to 24 become the primary targets of financial sex torsion. For example, reports from cyberclip.ca indicate that 83% of victims are male when the gender is known. Dang. Palmer. And LGBTQ youth studies show that LGBTQ plus individuals plus Enes canter experience disproportionately higher rates of both victimization and subsequent mental health distress compared to their peers, probably because they're saying, not only were you looking at pornography, but you were looking at gay pornography. Yeah, dude. Oh, dark, dark. That's why we got to keep going. Yeah. One step forward. That's it. Forward. One step at a time. Let's look at some of this mark, uh, dattle porn, uh, sorry. Let's, sorry, I did not mean that we'll take that out. Let's look at some of this mark, dattle core. That's what I meant to some of the mark, dattle core that's out there. Let's just add to the lore from what a menace this dude must be when you're out there running. It's the middle of the night. A lot of these men have not even seen their wives were children for three days. And this total menace comes up the course. Let me see some of it, bro. And this was at the most recent race. This was, this was at the old trio. Yeah. This message is for Sam Harvey back at base camp. I didn't come for 158 souls. I came for all 159 and you can count on that. My favorite part is listening to the commentators on that crazy dude. Do you have to keep your mentality that high out there? Like is it an active thing? Like are there, are there active moments where you're like, okay. What do I think of now to get me to that finish line? Like, okay, I'm going to think of, um, this loops for my family. This loops for my mom. This loops for my, you know, do you think like that? Are there little things you think of that get you to that next moment? Yes and no. I mean, uh, there's one thing that kept me going out there, at least deeper into the race is like part of what I get to do in running is that's how I provide for my family. And through the different avenues of what that represents, um, some of the best things that I get to do is I get to come home the week after or the weeks after and it'll be a Wednesday. And my wife and I will get to hang out and not worry about where we need to be. And if I can step further into that darkness, if I can take steps towards the discomfort and overcome the pain of that situation, the reward for that. is a movie on a Wednesday with my wife, brother. I will go through more pain to experience that type of freedom and peace. - Yeah. - And so, that is a big thing that keeps me going out there is this pain is nothing compared to the light that is waiting for me. - Wow. - And I know that's coming for me. - Right. - If I can stay here and sit in it-- - Let me put the tab right here. - Yeah, let's go. - Let's go. Yeah, like make it harder, actually. Like bring it on because light and love will always overcome the darkness. That's in running and that's in life and that's in our faith, that's in our family and our friends, our relationship, everything. Light and love will overcome the darkness. And these races provide me evidence for that and I get to keep stepping into that. And yeah, my wife is a big, big light in my life. - Lucy's her name. - Yeah, which means light. Does it really? - Yeah, it does. - Nice, Lucy. And you guys have a baby on the way. - We do have a baby. - Is that true? - That is true, yeah. - Let's go. - So that was another, you know. - And do you know if it's gonna be a boy or a girl yet? - We don't know that yet. Brother, we, I don't know why I keep saying brother like that. - It's okay, dude. - But we-- - I'm putting on a Hulk hug in a shirt if you want. Whatever you got to do to get through to this. - We had the first 10 week ultra sound and we met with the midwife two days ago and I heard the heartbeat for the first time. - Wow. - And you've never done a 10 week ultra? - Uh-uh. - Never done a 10 week ultra. - But the baby has a red. - But the baby has. - Wow. So we know where this kid is headed to the loop. - It's true. - It's another loop. - Oh, congratulations, man. Was that pretty amazing? - Yeah, it was. - Wow, dude. - It's hard to put into words because I heard the heartbeat and it was like, this is life and I'm listening to it, but I can't see it. - Yeah. - But it's there. - It was just a weird, I don't even know what the, yeah, it was just beautiful. - Yeah. Oh, yeah, dude. And you know what's so interesting about the heartbeat that I think about sometimes, Mark? It's like, my heartbeat, it's my father, my mother's heartbeat, it's together, right? So it's like this beat has been going, like the radio has been left on, bro, like this is like, this is like the timbre of like, I mean, I don't even know how long my family's even been alive. But it's like, it's the same, like this beat is just, I'm just a remix of all the people that have been here and that created me, dude. And that's it, like that's what you make. Like you make the beat. It's pretty crazy, really, when you think about it. So sometimes like if you miss your mother or you miss your father, if there's somebody like, you can like, like that's why like, that beat is just right there. It's kind of wild sometimes. Sometimes I'll do that and just like, kind of like think about a family member that's gone, you know? It's kind of cool. - That is really cool. - I never thought about that. - Dude, that's the thing, bro. That's the remix, bro. That's the Mark that'll loosey remix, bro. That's the new track. - Another loop, man. - That's another loop, bro. - That's perfect. You do public speaking now, you do. You go out and talk to people and share what your journey and your faith is it basically most or what is it? Some of that out when you go to these, when you go to different schools and events. - Yeah, so the way I think about running is in these three buckets under this same mission of, I'm trying to figure out what I'm truly capable of and I wanna help other people discover that too. The first bucket is I demonstrate that. I do the Arrowhead 135s. I do the Backyard Ultras and I put the words into action. The next step is share that. Share the tools and the lessons that I use in the toughest moments out on the race, on the course to help me overcome those. And then whether that's through YouTube or Instagram or going out and publicly speaking that to young men and women who, you know, man, I would have loved to hear these lessons as a high school and college kid where I was struggling to find my purpose and my identity and what was really important. And to corporations who are looking for ways to kind of rejuvenate their culture. So then there's that aspect and the third is to create opportunities for that to happen. It's like one thing we do in Minnesota with my buddy, Kellyn and his business, it's a son of cold tub business and we'll run three miles in the middle of the winter when it's minus 10 degrees out and we'll run to a cold spot in the Mississippi River. We'll crack open the ice with sledge hammers. We'll take a two-minute cold prong and then we'll run two miles back to the Sanos and embrace North. And what I get to experience in that moment is somebody who is afraid of what this experience could be and watch that fear build over three miles. And then they get to a hole and they jump in and it's like all that fear that they'd built up in their mind, they realize the experience was not as scary as the reality of the situation. And that's what being in a backyard is for me. That's what being in a, you know, the arrowhead is for me. It is experience that and how can I bring that to people? And so the public speaking is a way for me to like share this lesson and then show people like you can do this too. You don't have to do, you know, 94 hours in a backyard to experience that. - Ooh, I got in the moment with the two ladies. - Yeah, well, that's what I'm talking about, dude. I got picked, dude, I've never seen two ladies in the Mississippi River either, dude. But this dude knows what's-- - Hey, that's what happens upstream. - Hell, you see that? - Come upstream more often. - Come upstream. - Dude, what happens upstream? - Staves upstream, bro. - Mark Dattle, thanks so much, man. Is there anything else that you want to discuss before you go? - No, I just want to thank you. Thank you for your time. And like I said earlier, thank you for the way that you think about things, because it's truly encouraging to hear you think and talk out loud. And it encourages me to be able to do that more and more without fear of needing to be perfect. - Oh, thanks, dude. Yeah, I'm just trying my best, you know? I think most people are. And sometimes, yeah, and even then I wish I did better at it. You know what, that's a crazy statement. I'm trying my best, and then the next statement out of my mouth is, man, I wish I did better at it. That's just proof, right there what I'm talking about. Like, gotta monitor these voices, man. But so grateful I got to hear yours today, dude. And that's one that's gonna keep bringing in my ears. And yeah, just thanks so much for your journey. Tell Lucy, thank you for letting her husband leave while she's pregnant and letting you escape. And yeah, dude, we'll be keeping tabs. And we wanna donate to your friend's charity. - Amazing. - For his mother, what's, it's called Laurie? - Love like Laurie Legacy. - Yeah. - Okay, thank you. - Yeah, you bet we'll keep in touch about it and we'll donate to it right here. That's what it is, lovelikelaury.com, living the legacy run and when is the run? - So this run, the website's a little bit outdated, but you can still donate to it. But this was the third charity one we did, which was a 500 mile run from Springfield, Illinois to St. Paul. - Okay, I'll be in the van, but. - This happened in 2022. - Oh, it did. - Yeah, okay, yes, yes, yes. - Got it, got it, got it. Well, Laurie, we miss you and grateful to think about you today and say your name out loud. And yeah, Mark Dattle, thanks so much, brother. - Thank you for you. - Yeah, man. ♪ Now I'm just falling on the breeze ♪ ♪ And I feel I'm falling like these leaves I must be ♪ ♪ Corner stone ♪ ♪ Oh, but when I reach that ground ♪ ♪ I'll share this piece of mind I found ♪ ♪ I can feel it in my bones ♪ ♪ But it's gonna tell you ♪