Scott Payne, a retired FBI special agent with 28 years in law enforcement, shares insights from his extensive career, which included undercover work with dangerous groups like motorcycle gangs, drug cartels, and white supremacists. His book "Co-Name Pale Horse" details these experiences. Payne began in local policing in South Carolina, where he was drawn to undercover work, eventually joining the FBI after passing rigorous tests and training at Quantico. He emphasizes the importance of training and stress inoculation, noting how adrenaline dumps affect decision-making and the need for muscle memory in high-pressure situations. Payne recounts a tragic case where a colleague died due to insufficient training, highlighting systemic issues like budget cuts prioritizing training. In undercover operations, he stresses the importance of authentic backstories and staying close to his true identity to maintain consistency over long periods, such as a two-year operation with the Outlaws motorcycle gang. He also discusses developing informants, the challenges of avoiding romantic entanglements, and ensuring operational safety, like verifying weapons don't trace back to law enforcement. A notable case involved rescuing a kidnapped child in Texas, where he made a critical split-second decision. Payne also critiques controversial tactics like Operation Fast and Furious, which allowed guns to reach cartels, leading to deaths. Throughout, he underscores the emotional toll of the job, the importance of ethical conduct, and the need for better support for first responders.
Today's guest is a retired FBI special agent who spent 28 years in law enforcement. A lot of that undercover. He infiltrated some of the most dangerous groups in America, motorcycle gangs, drug traffickers, the cartel. He has a book out called Co-Name Pale Horse. How I went undercover to expose America's Nazis. We go way down the rabbit hole in this one. We want to let people know that some of this, uh, the stories in this one can be a little bit graphic. Uh, had a nice chat with today's guest, Mr. Scott Payne. [Music] Scott Payne, the author of Co-Name Pale Horse, uh, that's your book and you, you had some co-navings too. I saw that big country they called you, so yeah, I'm more like Shmedium now, but yeah. Oh, yeah, you coming down, huh? You de-escalating now. I'm, I'm, I'm aging. Where, where, where are you from? Uh, Born and Raised in Greenville, South Carolina. Oh, that's a beautiful city. Yeah, but Born and Raised there lived in Charleston, played ball in Charleston, South Carolina. But, um, I'm in East Tennessee now, man. Hey, man, man. Well, welcome to Tennessee, dude. To catch our listeners up for those who don't know, you spent, uh, 28 years in law enforcement, right? And, and so that was in police work, SWOT, uh, FBI undercover, um, and that was, uh, undercover with drug trafficking cartels, um, white supremacist groups. Yeah. Um, what about your life before law enforcement made you think, uh, that, that's a, a direction I want to go in? Well, it's not, I mean, it's one of those things you look back and you get, uh, well, I can see what was happening. I know it was happening at the time, but I just love connecting with people. I mean, I, uh, I go into great detail in the book, but like in high school, when I was in high school in the 80s, you had a smoking area. Oh, you know, you, uh, you, uh, there were your cigarettes, you know, and then you had like, I could go, I could hang in, and, and almost every crowd. That's all it's, it's not saying I could be one of them necessarily. I could just be accepted. So, um, pot heads, I'm there, jocks, I'm there musicians, I'm there. You look back and you see these things, uh, but something about, I don't know if it started when I became a cop, but like some of my mentors, there's a guy named Gary Ward, uh, who was at the Greenville County Sheriff's Office in South Carolina. And he was the strongest man in the late 80s. So he came in after like Bill Casmire. He was, he was a marine, former marine, but at that time he was a marine and, and he won the heavyweight class and bench squad and deadlift. So now he's on narcotics and he's this jack big dude with, uh, yeah, goodness gracious. That's him. Oh my God. Good boy, baby. Good boy. And he got bigger. And then what porcelain? Look at the thighs on him. They would damn sell him at auction. Yeah. When I met him, he had a, I mean, he had a beard and everything and yeah, and that bad, he damn goes to the toilet and his yard just grows better. I did. You know, I used to ask him, I got, we'd be at the gym and I'm like, uh, I'm like, man, I never see you doing like this exercise or exercise like this, but man, your neck and your shoulders are, he said, so when you pick that much weight up off the ground, something's going to grow. I was like, all right, man. Yeah. He used to bust my jobs, man. He, he helped me perfect my squad. Squat was my strongest lift. So, you know, so he had a role model like that kind of and he had done undercover and biker stuff. And I was becoming a biker. I mean, I grew up on motorcycles, but I mean, like riding like American made, you know, hardly out there going to rallies and all that stuff. And he had done that and I don't know if that's what gave me the bug. All I know is that like it doesn't matter during that time frame, that 80s, 90s, it doesn't matter if it was the cheesiest undercut removing. I love them all. Amen. Well, I love them all, man. Things like that have an effect on your life. It's the people you meet in the gym have an effect on your life. Yeah. So you get into police work over there in Greenville, South Carolina. Do you remember a day that it just got real, you're like, oh, this is now it really feels real kind of? Oh, man. If you're uniform patrol, I mean, it's most people, I guess if you're not a cop, you don't think this way or know it, but you just see so much trauma and stuff and you get desensitized sort of. I mean, we compartmentalize it and we're not very good at it and that's why first responders and I'm including medic fire and military. If we're not number one, we're very high for divorce, suicide, substance abuse and dying within five years after retiring. So it's a pressure cooker. But like going in uniform, you can show up on all kinds of stuff, man. I've shown up and nothing more. There's plenty of men and women in law enforcement that have done more and seen more, but you know, you go into a place and it's a trailer caught on fire and the person died in the position where they were trying to crawl out the, I mean, it's just all kinds of stuff. Somebody gets hit by a train, you're finding pieces of stuff. Do you remember a day where you're like, I don't know if we're really trained for this kind of? Well, the thing is jumping in my head right now, because I'm still a tactical instructor. I'm an instructor with alert. It's spent with two hours, ALERRT, but the FBI and alert married in 2013 and it's the national standard for training, law enforcement and how to respond to active shooter events. So I was just, we were just putting on a class last week in East Tennessee. So that's a national organization alert? Yes. So we do you know all kinds of stuff, stopping the kill and stopping the dying and then you got to do casual leave back. But what I was saying, if you were asking me about something like Greenville County, I had a good friend of mine die in the line of duty. And this is what we're trying to do. A lot of times we're training. We're just saying, man, just slow down just a little bit, you know? I get it, you know, young gun and I'm still got plenty of testosterone in me. You want to just bust in there and run into rooms and there's a safer way to do it. But what happened to my friend is we weren't really getting the training at that time. But he was the city. I was County, but he was city, but his the edge bumped up to each other, right? So he see somebody's got a lot of warrants on him, jumps out, chases a month foot, chases them into a building, somebody clocks him in the head with a board. And now you've got tunnel vision. Now he's like, all he's seeing is this, even though he got hit in the head with the board, he calls it out, but he sees the guy running and and Russ was in shape. Russ Lassara. He was in shape, man. He took off after him and we just hadn't had the training to slow down enough to stop and to pan and use use distance and angles. And he ran right because he was a hard corner and he ran right past the bad guy and the guy shot him in the back. And when he went down, he walked up and shot him three times directly in the back of the head and they rolled him over and shot him in the mouth and in the in broad daylight. But if we would have had that training and you got to get the ribs, you got it in it's sad to say, but most places are they don't have the budget anyway, but at least in my experience, when they're having budget problems, the first thing that gets cut is training. Wow. And then something bad happens. And then you look and you go, how did that happen? And then you look and people that are out there in the industry that have the skill says, they're like, well, just a lack of training. They didn't know what to do, you know? Oh, yeah, the rep. I mean, you say the reps, man, the muscle memory is the, you know, it's like, because otherwise, I'm sure you're running on adrenaline and I don't know how much, I don't know chemically what is in adrenaline. If there's a part of it, like of the chemical. I'm going to be some endorphins. Now, he's going to be like, yeah, it's going to probably be like a epinephrine or something right? Right. Yeah. There's not something in there that's like, hey, relax. Yeah, that's not that one. Yeah, it's the opposite of relax. Yeah. We may need some new adrenaline. Yeah. It's a, so when we're doing those trainings, we call it a stress inoculation. So out there on the range gets you and, or maybe when we're doing force on force with the marking cartridges, you're in a mask, you're in a helmet, enclosed neck protector. And you'll hear people all the time say, man, I couldn't hear anything. When we're doing the tests, say, hey, the same, put the mask on, put it on and you stand up there and you go, hey, can you hear the sound of my voice and everybody raise their hand? It's not, it's not the helmet. It's your stress. Wow. So you do that. You bleed on the range so you don't die on the street, but it takes the reps. There's so many videos I can show you, military and law enforcement, where the officer has no idea how many rounds they've shot. They have no idea that they did it in a magazine exchange. They have no idea that they did it behind cover, but they did it because they trained until it became instinctive. Or like you said, muscle memory. Yeah. When things get intense, man, yeah, it's hard to sit back and, like, and, and, and remember what occurred. Yeah. Much less. So when you're having a adrenaline dump, and it could be any traumatic experience, it could be your first car wreck. I remember my first car wreck, everything that goes to slow motion. Yeah. You're just like, whoa, and everything's a time dilation. Oh, yeah. So your eyes click. You're just getting screenshots because it's not a smooth transition. Your auditory exclusion, you feel like you're under water, everything's like, you just hear, whoa, whoa, whoa, and it's just everything so you can feel your heart beating through your whole body. And we'll say the studies have shown that the better physical shape you're in, the quicker you'll recover from those adrenaline dumps. So adrenaline dump is a, it's a real thing that you, you guys cast, yes, what I call it, but I mean, there's probably another term for it, but you know, this is, let me see right here. It says, on adrenaline dump is a sudden large release of the hormone adrenaline, epinephrine, from your adrenal glands that rapidly flips your body into fight or flight mode, followed by a downshift, once that surge clears and related stress hormones settle. Breathing rate increases and airways relax to pull in more oxygen quickly. The flow is redirected away from digestion toward muscles, heart-long.
and brain, so you can move and react faster. And that's on perplexity. Wow, that's interesting. Yeah, I just didn't know that. And you can come in and out of it. You know, you can be like in a situation, have the adrenaline dump. And then you start, okay, things are calming down. Now you're coming back to normal and then something else happens. And you're like, oh, dad, come in. And you're going right back down to another adrenaline dump. So, and in your work, you've probably kind of ridden those, like a lot over the years. Almost like waves, kind of. Yeah. Like a surf and a little bit. Yeah, but I don't like that kind of surf and fool. And I never thought about like that, that's something. I mean, you always hear the term, oh, you have an adrenaline dump. But I've never really kind of looked at it as to see exactly what's kind of occurring in that in those moments. So you end up moving, I'm assuming from police work to a SWAT. Is that kind of how it went? Because I remember, I heard you talk one time about those jump out boys, right? Yes. And I remember reading about jump out boys, like even down in Louisiana and stuff. Oh, yeah. It was like these sort of like, it was kind of this new thing that was happening. This is what we gathered is just regular. Back in the 5-0 days. Everybody was 5-0. Oh, everybody was 5-0. Dude, anyone in the corner, 5-0. I'm like, I'm not even in a Mustang. Bro, dude, you see a white Dodge neon. And people yell, 5, or even you just see a white guy that hadn't been out in a while. I know, yeah. And people yell, 5-0. Oh man, you're trying to earn some money on the corner by being a lookout. Those were the days, bro. 5-0. 5-0. And everybody had run, it didn't even matter, dude. Um, but yet, but the jump out boys, it was kind of an unmarked car group. That was kind of taking on drug trafficking. That's what, that's how we always heard about it like that. So it's not SWOT. If the sheriff's office, I didn't get on SWOT. I got on SWOT in the FBI. Got it. But I did make Vice Narcotics Investigator and that's your jump out boys. It's usually your narcotics unit. It is. We're rolling out. Being young and dumb, you know, I'd be out late at night, single, party, and I'd come in. And thankfully, Gary didn't like beat me up or nothing. But I remember we've had to drive like 40 minutes to where we're going to do a jump out. I'm just gonna nod off a little bit about five minutes out. If you'll just wake me up, let me know. I wake up and I go, alright, alright, because you're young. I mean, you're, you know, nothing's not popping when you stand up, you know? And you just go like, all right, man, we're rolling up. And Van Dore opens, you start running from a dead sleep. Yeah. Jason, yeah. And what, so I guess I'm guessing they didn't breathalyze y'all before your shift. I wasn't drunk. I was just tired. Damn. The night before I might have been a little snoggered, but yeah, you know, I'm just, I had the hair of the dog. Amen. What were some of those calls like? A lot of those, so jump out stuff. You're gonna be going to somewhere that's got a lot of reporting or incidents recorded of high drug trafficking. Yeah. So you're gonna be pulling up. And it may be, it may be quick buys. You may run and undercover in to make a buy. And then either they identify them or you've got it on camera and they're coming, so you go through. And it's like, all right, the day's wearing a yellow cut, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they just pulled in right to that and jump out and grab them. 'Cause they just sold it up if you want to do it that quick. Other times it might be for me. Once I was in the FBI, I was really source development. I'd go out there with the local estate and locals and, you know, observe, just get involved. No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And sometimes you can get some good information. Mm-hmm. So as you're coming up through the police department, what makes you like, is the police department is the activity they're kind of not enough or are you in a search for more? Like what makes you want to kind of evolve your career to try other genres of law enforcement? There's a couple of things that happen. Number one, the pay. Okay. You're the sheriff's office for five years. You don't get me raises. County council gives them self raises. Happens all over the United States. Not Discreamable South Carolina. What we all getting made? What we all get? Oh, man, I don't know. I was a, that would have been 93 to 98. I was a cop, so I don't know. 50, 60 grand, who knows, right? But you know, as a cop, you're also moonlighting. You're doing all kinds of side jobs. You know, you get, oh yeah, you get off of work and then you go to Frankie's Fun Park or some golf thing and you sit there or you go to the dollar general and you sit, you know, for shoplifting and stuff like that and you get extra money. So we're working like security gigs, side gigs. Yeah, referee and all kind of stuff. Yeah. You forget that. I forget that the police officers do all kind of stuff. They'll be empires for our game a lot of time. They'll be referee and basketball. I forgot about all that. Or yeah, or that's your side. Maybe you're, if you're in uniform, you might see the cop at the high school game. That's a side job. Got it. You know, you're getting paid for that. But I looked at the pay because after five years, it was kind of like, man, I'm not making anything. Even though I was a two striper at that point, but it's like you look, they would raise the, it was weird because they would raise the hiring rate, the pay for the hiring. So starting rate. But at some point, I probably could have literally quit, walked out the door and came back in with a 40 degree and make more than what I'm making. Which it doesn't make any sense. And you also look at it and you're like, I'm never, I'm never going to max out my retirement. Look at how much we're making, how little we get. I'm never going to hit peak unless I live to be a hundred and they let me work as a hundred year old cop, you know? And a wheelchair, you know, but I looked at that, but I was really starting to get a lot more exposure. As far as I was learning more about the federal agencies, 'cause we would go out and help them with the rest and stuff. And I really didn't know. I thought the FBI just worked to bank robberies 'cause that's the only time I ever saw them. And I had a sergeant. He said, and my nickname at that time was Kingpin. And he said, Kingpin, if I was you, and I was a single man and I had a four year degree, he said, man, I would put in for the FBI and I'd list New York as my first office. And I thought, I'd list New York as my first office. Yeah, I'd put in New York 'cause I want to go to New York and that, you know. New York, yeah. And I was like, are you, what do you smoke? I'm like, there's no way I'd go to New York. What are you talking about? I started to plan 'cause I thought, I said, all they were, what do they do? And he says, God, they do everything. And I'd heard that it was harder to get hard with them. And I took it as a challenge. I filled out that one first and I never filled out another one. Took about probably a year to get through the whole process. But the polygraphs and the physical fitness and all the backgrounds and then there's tests you have to take and then there's another interview test and then you get to the Academy. You get your letter and I arrived in Quantico, Virginia on 927 to 98 and 928 your first day. Dang. And before we go into your first day, when it comes to the FBI, what were some of the criteria that they were looking for? Were there unique tests and stuff that they had you do along the way that are even experiences that in hindsight may have been used to weed people out that you're able to notice now? - Oh yeah, I mean, there's all, I mean, like the phase one test. - 'Cause you tickle me, I'll tell you what's going on. - Yeah, all right, you know what I'm saying? - I mean, I was very truthful on the polygraph I did, but I sit in the box for like three and a half hours. I'm like, I don't know what you mean to tell you, I'm not lying, you know? But that phase one test, it has like, there's like questions they ask you, you know, would you be more likely to when they're giving you scenarios and stuff? But there was this math part. And I had to get back, and I had good grades in college and stuff, but I don't remember any of that. I didn't remember any of the geometry and all the other stuff. I was like, I don't remember this stuff. - Yeah, nobody does it. - So I get, unless your job has you doing it for some reason, right? - Nope, if you walked up to 95% of people that graduated those classes right now, but they couldn't tell you shit. - So I, they couldn't tell you shit. - I walk in and say-- - 'Cause nobody's using it 'cause sometimes it's like, there's a missing dog you're neighbor or something. If somebody shows up with geometry to find a damn missing dog, I'm pointing at them, brother. They got that pup. - I look at it like this. It helps you find ways to solve problems. This is the way I kind of look at it. - That's a good attitude. - That's, that's, that's, you know, but my, so the middle section was math. - Okay. - Now they do look for certain backgrounds. When I was coming in, if you were an accountant, CPA, that's good, attorney, with you pass the bar, that's good. Former military, intel, foreign language speaking, and diverse, and I came in under diverse. So four-year degree, three years of experience, but I was a former cop. So that helped, if they're looking for that. - So they bring in all types in the FBA. - Oh, so completely diverse. Yeah, I mean, you got former doctors, former biochemists. - Really? - Yeah, that's insane. - So it's not just police officers? - No, no, not especially not an FBI. - Oh, I never thought of that. I always just feel like it's police and then it's, and they-- - A military, yeah. - Yeah, or a military and they evolve and they've working with the FBI. - One of my best friends that went through the academy with me, he was a former Walmart manager, and he smoked the fitness test, and he was a great agent. So I mean, he's like, yeah, all kinds of backgrounds. Actually, I think that's one of the strongest points of the FBI, is their diversity. But sometimes we place people in the wrong places, you know? - Yeah. - Oh, once they're in, you know? - Yeah, yeah. - Oh, I could see that. - Like, you got knuckle dragger like me, and you want to stick me on some highfalutin, I don't know, healthcare for all squad. - Yeah. - It's not me. - Yeah, yeah. Now, but if you want to put somebody into the healthcare for all squad, that's for me with rolling back prices. - Yeah. - And account it. - Or a former medical person, right? - Or a former Walmart employee. - There you go, there you go. - And that's the guy we need, so. - I'm more of the greeter. - Yeah, yeah. - I'm that guy. - Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, oh, they got him out here for a reason, you know? Yeah, and sorry, I interrupt you, man. So you're going through the phase one test, right? - Yeah. So there's questions, there's a, there's a, there's basically three parts, but the middle part was all that algebra and geometry and all this stuff, and I mean, I studied, I studied and studied, but as I walk in, I see, I've already met some people and they're full-blown CPA accountants who've been doing this. When we walked out of that thing, I saw them going, I don't even know what that was. I think I felt, and I'm like, well, if you failed, I know I failed, man, I'm like, this is your way.
World man, but I just started just circling stuff when I was running out of time. Sorry. - I don't know how to do it. - The law of averages was on my side that day. - And you passed. - Pixie. I just went out. - Yeah, that's right, yeah. Yeah, I guess I did. I don't know if it was something to break you, like to throw you off mentally, just to stress you out because then the third part was back then the questions again. So like if you've ever taken the MMP2 for a job, it's the MMP2 something. It's like 547 questions. And a lot of places have it. And even our psychological unit has it. And I think you have to take it like once every two years or four years. But I mean, it's like so many different ways to ask the same question. But if you are hiding something under the surface, I don't know, maybe when you get stressed somewhere in there psychologically it's gonna slip out on the back end. - Oh, that would make sense. 'Cause sometimes a simple word, one word changing something. - The little change. - A little bit of thing, an angle, how. - So you do find your mother sexy and you do like hormone small animals. And you are fascinated with fire. 'Cause at the beginning of the test, you weren't, right? - Yeah. - And then they walk you out. - Yeah. - Yeah. - So I have some hobbies. - Yeah. - But no, I love what you're saying man, the turn of phrase a little bit of bit can lead to something so different. And also sometimes just waiting when somebody thinks you're gonna talk, just waiting. - Yeah. - And then their energy sometimes. - Oh yeah. - Starts eating them up. - Yeah, I gotta fill the space. - I gotta say something. 'Cause what does their silence mean? Is their silence mean something? - Yeah. - They know. - And then you start to interpret in your head, what does their silence mean? And that's kind of a crazy thing. - Awesome, maybe I was, maybe I wasn't completely truthful. - Yeah. - But maybe I wasn't completely clothed, you know? Yeah man, wow, yeah, this is interesting stuff. Thanks for your time today man. - Thank you for having me. - Okay, so you get through the testing, you pass that and then you were in, when do people go to Quantico? Is that then? - Pretty much. I don't know. - I'm here about to move. - Yeah, yeah, if you, it depends on, I know you have to pass phase two. But I can't remember when the polygraph falls in and when the physical fitness test, but basically all that, you're gonna get a phase one, you're gonna polygraphed background, huge background, thorough, thorough background. 'Cause you're gonna be going into a job where you could get top secret clearance. So yeah, it's like, they know everything. Every credit card you got, any debt you've got. - They get to sit and tell some secrets and stuff about yourself that you didn't want to tell or how well you get. - No, because I'm transparent. That's just me. I mean, I'll just tell 'em, I'm not gonna hold it back. I'm not gonna lie. And really, in the FBI, I don't know right now 'cause I didn't work under cash, but I retired under Ray and I came in under Louis Free. But if you lie under inquiry and that's recorded, you're kind of dead to us 'cause you can't go testifying anymore. And you can't go build a case because you're gonna have to release that you were caught lying and then the defense is gonna eat you apart. - So the truth is the only way to get there. - Right, so I've seen some people do some, or have read about in quarterly reports, some things that employees have done, whether they're gun tutors or whether they're professional staff, but in mitigation, if they didn't lie, I mean, we're gonna try to get you help and stuff. But then you read the next thing and it's like, oh, somebody was called to the table on time and attendance fraud. Like they were fudging the numbers. Under inquiry, they lied, dismissed, fired. And you're like, well, if I've learned anything, don't lie. - Don't lie. - Don't lie. (laughing) - Wow, and it's crazy that you would then end up in a world where you're going undercover where it's like, okay, now-- - Now I'm lying. - Yeah. (laughing) Except for now, now I'm going back to Scott, yeah. - As you guys know, Moon Pay is my go to place by crypto. And now they just launched something new. It's called Moon Pay Agents. It's tech that lets AI actually handle your crypto for you. Think of it like a smart assistant that can buy, sell, trade, swap coins, set up recurring buys, and even convert crypto back into cash all on your behalf. 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And then you get in, and you basically lit, I mean, Quantico, I'll look at it like the bot. Whatever that old lady is, maybe the bio-dome, with Paulie Shore and everybody. That's what I look at it like, 'cause I have been in that building for four days and realize I have not gotten fresh air. I've not stepped outside this building. Yeah, yeah, so you can go from, yes, so you can go from, that's Jefferson right there at the front. That's where I stayed. You can go in, and from Jefferson, you go down to the cafeteria. You get your breakfast, and then you go to class. You go to lunch, you go back, you can go to your room, go to the gym, go to the board room at night, hit the bar, go back, and you never stepped foot outside. Wow. And that's our track at the back. It looks different now. Or you know what? No, they did put a building in the middle of it now. There used to be a nice ropes course and all kinds of stuff, but a lot of running, a lot more running than I ever did. I was a lineman, so. So once you were there, that became a big part of it was the physical conditioning. Yeah, and you're in class all day. You're learning all kinds of stuff. From you getting legal, you're doing this, and then we're in Hogan's alley, learning tactics. Firearms range, learning how to be a better shooter. What was one of the more unique classes kind of that you took that kind of stood out? I always loved anything forensics. Like even though we all know how the OJ Simpson trial turned out and everything, but if you have a forensics person come in and break down exactly what was found at that, it just got screwed up how it was collected and then the defense did what they were supposed to do. They created out in the jury's mind. But you can, some stuff like that. If a forensics person comes in and they break that down like this is what we found here and it's just getting better and better with like I forget what it's called. But now they can take you, there's something that's matching up your DNA, let's just say they're clear in like a 30 year old case. Because the DNA is there from that original collection before we even knew we were going to be able to test this kind of stuff. And then now they're going back and they can actually pull things and you know how you kind of do that. Like almost like a 23 and me or the genealogy thing they're doing that and they can never down to like almost. That's it. Testing DNA on cold cases is codeus. We know genetic genealogy genetic genealogy. You go, if codeus has no match labs upload the profile to public databases like GED match which I'll tell you this how the gate you do GED match. You're going to find so my family, I got that family too. Yeah, I'm first first generation or first generation for you to agree, but a lot of empty diploma frames in our area. My dad dropped down to 10th grade. Did he? And he said he stopped paying attention in the eighth. Oh, 10's good. Yeah, oh yeah, GED was, that was a popular past time in our area. So they just cleared while I was put on training somewhere and somebody was telling me how they just cleared this case. That's amazing. And it was, they did that. And they were able to use that family genealogy to narrow it down to, oh my goodness. This is one of the suspects that they interviewed and this is the one. Wow, so yeah. 30 years later, somebody's getting cuspid on them. I'm going to do it. I love that dude. I feel like you can feel the timeline of existence breathe a little bit when justice is started. Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like a little bit of justice. Why so? And so how long is the whole overall training for the fur, fur? FBI, FBI, it's somewhere around five months. Sometimes it adds another month, but it's somewhere around five months. And what percentage of people do they eliminate?
sort of along the way, or is that it? - You know, well, it depends. It's a case by case basis. There was a time where I would go back and I would, 'cause I was a firearms instructor, tactical instructor, undercover guy and all that stuff, but I would be back at Quantico with my peers who were in those units. And you'd look at the class and you'd be like, look at the last class and you'd see like half of them failed. I'm like, what is going on? What kind of ebbs and flows? I don't think half failure is normal, but I'm not there every day, so I don't know. - Got it. - And when did your undercover work start? Did that start from the FBI? - No, it started at the Sheriff's Office. So once I'm made by an narcotics investigator, you have an opportunity to go to undercover techniques or technical surveillance. These are classes that they were put on in Columbia, South Carolina, at the Criminal Justice Academy. And once you get certified in that, then they'd let you go work undercover. But I mean, just picture me, now number one, I don't wanna mess up. Number two, you're around a bunch of older guys and gals who are seasoned in street level buys and all this stuff. And I'm just trying to, you're gonna have to show up. You got, you know, it's not up to them to like me, it's up to me to get them to like me, right? - Got it. - You got ingraced pictures of yourself? - Yeah, and it's a tough crowd, usually is. Military law enforcement, we're pretty tough crowds. So imagine me, number one, not wanting to screw up. Number two, being scared at death. And number three, thinking about them watching it. And not wanting to screw up in front of them too. So I'm like Gary Ward and some of those people, you know? But, yeah, I mean, the first crack rock I bought, I was probably 275 pounds with low body fat, you know, just jacked and I'm like, I don't look like I smoked crack. Unless I just started, I just started back, you know? I like by crack rock and drop around for 15 minutes and come back and buy another one. I'm not the guy smoking it, you know? - And so something like that, that's a real energy to come back to another one. And would you have to seem cracked out when you came back around? - Well, what I was told, 'cause I never smoked crack, was that it would wear off in 15 minutes. That's why they didn't care if you came back and bought again. So yeah, but they were probably giving me little slivers of soap or something, he knows. But once I did it, the bug got me. - Yeah. - Like the undercover bug, I don't know what it was. It's not lying, it's not like, you know? I used to, like, it's the infiltration. Yeah, I mean, getting to know people, but during the book process, I can't remember what I used to term it as, but I just realized, I go, holy crap, I just love connecting with people. - Wow. - I don't care. Even if I get called out at three in the morning, 'cause I was considered a good interviewer. So, you know, to either get information to confession or, you know, flip 'em and maybe they work with us. And I would go and I didn't mind getting called out like that. And I love it, the crazier, the better. I mean, rich, poor, big, tall, smart, dumb. I love it all. Did you guys have groups that would, like, say you go on, like, you're, get put on an assignment. Is that what it's called, basically? - Yeah, from undercover. - Yep. - And they could be very small or they could be bigger ones, deeper, deeper or shallow ones. - Yep. - Do you go to, like, wardrobe and stuff like that? Do they have all of that? Like, who creates your backstory? How does all that happen? - I say, ultimately, ultimately it's on you. And what I teach you, what I, what I write, you know? You go, come on, I believe I did use to call the unit. I go, when are you gonna call me for 'cause I was big country, even though I'm not big anymore, but they'd be like, I'd call headquarters and I'd go, when are you gonna let me do one of those Wall Street jobs? You know, that one's a big old-time came jobs and they're like, no. And I'm like, I can say, buy, sell. You know, put a big hat on and have that boss hog long horn on the front of my car, rolling in the, and they're like, no, and I got fine. 'Cause it's my skill set. My skill set leaves me to back woods with meth heads and whites of premises and whatever else, you know? Oh yeah, dude, those are some of my neighbors, probably. What were some of those early spots that you got put into? Well, early on at the sheriff's office, it was the, you know, you gotta go buy a crack rock, which was terrifying to me, and then you might be picked. Yeah, 'cause I never bought crack. I'm pulling down there, man, I barely cracked the window, you know? I was just like, they go, what you want? 'Cause I come up around the car, you know what you want? I'm like, I want a 20, you know? And he's like, bro, down the window, you idiot, you know? I'm like, oh, I'm sliding money through the, you know? What, let me vent my, yeah? Yeah, they didn't have to vent my bag, man. That'd been good, though. What you cash at, bro? You know, I'll send it to you right now. Oh, okay, man. That's pretty good. And then Typing, what's it for? Drugs. Yeah. Crack. Yeah, but that was the odd stuff there, but I started cutting my teeth, but when I got in the FBI, my first long term, I mean, I was doing some cameo stuff, which a cameo is basically what it sounds like, like on a TV show. You're there just to help somebody else, or it's a quick, it's not even a full-blown undercover operation, it's just gonna be one meet. Like, do you an example of that? Like a bi-buster, we're gonna deliver L.A. takes off a huge load of dope. It's supposed to be coming to New York. So L.A. gets on the phone with FBI in New York. We're like, okay, what does it look like? We want measurements all this. We would go build the exact same shipment. And then we would deliver it to where it's supposed to go so we can get the bad guys on that end. - No. - And it's just a one-time, I mean, I'm in a truck with an NYPD detective, and we're just dirtyed up and going to deliver. - So in that way, were you able to bust both ends of the-- - Yeah, yeah. - What is the reason that they would do it like that as opposed to just showing up at the actual meet? - Because sometimes you don't know if it's getting delivered to a fictitious address, or where's it gonna go, but we were delivering it. And it depends on the assistant United States attorney, 'cause everybody's a little different. So maybe this one says, this is all I need to charge them. Somebody might be a little bit more thorough. They go, no, I wanna actually know that they opened the box. Well, how can we do that? Well, let's build something so we, when we walk away, it's not enough that they take possession. We want to walk away and know that they pop the box before we hit it. - And how would you guys know that when you guys put cameras in the box? - Oh, something. Some tech guys gonna do something. I mean, there's so much technology now. I mean, I don't know what they can do. But of course, my people watch TV and think we can do stuff we can anyway. - Is that true? Well, I don't know, this getting better. I saw, I've seen some things since I retired. I'm not gonna say what they are, 'cause it's a straight graph. But it really made me want to go back undercover just to use it for a recording device. I was like, I cannot believe. I'm like, you know. - Well, they just had those SUVs that they bought. I think they had his really technology in them. I'm if you saw that, there was these SUVs that allegedly can drive by an area and read your phone basically. Can you bring that up, Kevin? - It's probably like if you're on Bluetooth or Wi-Fi and it's pulling stuff off of your phones. - Israel's Palantir rival is selling $1 million by advance to U.S. cops. Is this a recent story? 'Cause this was like three days ago. Oh yeah, this is good, there we go. Let me see, cognite, which sells technology to Snoop on phone locations largely in Israel and Europe is making inroads in America by tricking out trucks with spy tech. Texas State Polices purchase of four brand new Chevy Tahos. This march was unusual. Not just because of the staggering $4.5 million price tag, but because the vehicles were kidded out with technology that could monitor the locations of nearby cell phones. Mayby's Israeli surveillance company, cognite, the tech simulates a mobile phone tower which forces nearby phones to connect to it. That enables cops to keep tabs on any phones in the vicinity, whether they're owned by a suspect in a case or not. - You're gonna have some issues there. - I'm reading, I'm listening to what you're reading, but I'm telling you, you've got the fourth amendment protection. So if I'm gonna be able to track you at a minimum, I'm probably gonna have to get a court order. A lot of places, a lot of times now, you have to get a full blown search warrant. - Do you think though that maybe they're buying these in advance and they know that the laws are gonna change? - That could be, but I can tell you right now, if somebody's coming by and pulling your stuff and they're actually tracking you, I mean that, like you can, say if you've got a scanner and you're riding through apartment complex back in the day, you could pick up different cell phones and stuff. Is that, I mean, is that a title three wire tab? I mean, if you're using it for evidence, it is, but for us, like, that's a huge invasion of privacy, for me, everybody who listens to your phone. I'll pin register, trap and trace. That's just gonna let me track your phone and maybe see where you are off of towers. I'll get to see phone numbers coming in and calling in and calling out and texting and texting out, but I can't read. - Got it. - Well, I can't read the content. If you start getting into that kind of stuff, like if somebody puts a camera in your house, that's a title three. And it's not easy to get. It's not TV. It's not like, hey, I need to be on this phone in five minutes. Mm-hmm. - It's different. - We can now, you can track a phone in an emergency or there are some, maybe it's harder, especially if you've got a burner phone, but there are things like if somebody's missing or it's a threat to life or maybe a cop goes down and we're trying, or somebody's there to alert. Yeah, and we're trying to do that. That's, we're not be able to expedite it a little bit, but you're still gonna get some type of order. - Got it. And now sometimes it seems like that police or FBI, they may use these tactics for the moment, knowing that they're not just to move them to advance and whatever that moment is, to have strategy, knowing that it may not hold up in court later. - Well, I wouldn't do that. - Really, for me, oh. - Which is, it makes sense when I'm saying? - I know it does, it does, but what I'm saying is I've always done it. - Like do it now, ask permission later, like that's for forgiveness. - Right, ask for forgiveness. - It seems like I could see that being a part of maybe this strategy, I don't know. - Well, that would be on the spot kind of thing, but generally, or for, let's just say for the most part, I would not, I'm retired. I'm not bonded right now. but I wouldn't.
build a bad case or do something like that because that's a violation but if there was a gray area if this is just me personally speaking I'm not saying it's covered it's not covered by policy but there have been horrific cases where young girl goes missing I'm kicking myself for not remembering her name right now but she goes missing in Florida and everybody's looking for her so you go out and you start canvassing the neighborhood well you might look and you can see hey man we've got like registered sex offenders right here where she went missing but that's the first doors I'm not gonna sorry fat offing you but you're registered sex offender yeah and uh. trade yeah and and there and and they after the fact they found her she was dead she was buried alive with her with her stuffed animal but in the original canvas they went and talked to the guy at the trailer that was holding her but they never got in so me that I would I would have I like I'm getting in there if you feel it yeah I'm getting up then if you don't have a problem you're not holding it you might have all walking here and look and if you say no well okay well we'll find a way to get in here right but I'm not leaving yeah you know what I mean have you had instances like that where you had to trust your instincts oh yeah yeah as a case agent well I even as an undercover but as an undercover you're in a situation and you're you're basically playing chess you're trying to be five steps ahead of them and they're thinking you're also like tennis like I'm serving it to you and I have no idea which way you hitting it back but I'm over here going you know I'm that golly I don't know what you're throwing but I'm trying to be ready as a case agent out there trying to call a call call call shots right there on the spot you know I had a case in McCall in Texas where I was at for six and a half years and what it was is that the the they were undocumented aliens being smuggled in we get the call because the undocumented family is already in Virginia they had paid for two sisters and a daughter to come through and what happened is the smuggling organization got them across the river so you get them across the river at least in Rio Grande Valley you get them across the river and then they're usually at a station location a house or something because now they've got to get picked up by a coyote a walker and they're gonna be handed off and now they're gonna be walked through the brush around the checkpoints to where they'll be picked up and then carried to wherever where this one happened was one of the sisters was physically a mentally challenged and they left her in the brush to dry to die they left her in the brush to die and border patrol founder she was sixteen but they couldn't figure out a lot so they called child protective services they came over and were able to figure out you've got family they actually figured out the other family was in Virginia and they were now being extorted they got them across the river got them into a house and now they're calling saying hey we already dumped one of your sisters your five-year-old daughter sick and we're not getting her anything to make her better unless you pay us more money so they're extorting them even though they pay and in my mind I think that's truly a victim even though undocumented alien is isn't a legal charge but I'm not working undocumented alien I'm working kidnap and extortion well yeah especially if I mean I think there's a moral code inside of a lot of us yeah where you have to decide what's going on yeah you know and and sometimes you can't even decide it's just a built-in thing you're like this is how I'm an operating the space right it's a very human thing yeah so in that case particularly we're probably running for three four days non-stop because we're trying to find this phone that they're calling on that the bad guys are using to call the family I've already hit FBI up in Virginia and say hey can you go ever and give them recording devices all that all the stuff they need and it was a Honduran family and about that third day we're out and all we know is that the phone like I said just location stuff it's not I'm not giving away right you're not getting text message you just getting some location tags it's not it's not like it's always it's not always pinpoint you know it's not like hey that's it moving right there 10 feet away that's right not at least when I was working it then and we know pretty much that the phone is somewhere in this store and they're like hey it's moving and then at the same time four different people come out when they're all walking to the cars and we've been up for three days straight and we're all most of us are parents which doesn't matter if you're parent or not you're still going to be like but you're you're getting personally involved in this case because it's a five-year-old girl and I had to make the call they're like what are you because I was leading it and they're like which one and I'm like look I'm going off son of a I'm going okay here we are here we are yeah it's the massing or whatever yeah I'm like I'm on Lord and I'm like hit me and then I'm like let's go with that one and we follow it away and get to a point to where that one stops and then we were able to say yep the phone moved and it's somewhere close to there so then we go in and hit the house but the house didn't have the undocumented people in it it had it had the guy had the ledgers had all the names of course the phone was in there they were trying to let they were trying to flush stuff and everything we get in there and cut the phone zone and I call the bad guy phone and it rings and I go it's you so we do it a long interrogation and luckily the guy broke and took us to the stash house and we remember covered the girl and her sister yeah and of course we're all crying all the all the girl man the my friend who's the female board patrol agent she's like she's like all of us are like you know because we put the young girl in the phone with her Honduran mother and she's like mommy and you know she still had her school girl outfit on man they want to dry I want to dry day knock knock who's there knock knock knock knock knock that's the sound of your bedpost when you're on that blue - gold remember when getting a rouse was as easy as looking at a Sears catalog or a particularly ripe peach or just you know you sometimes you just see a tree that had a little couple little bumps on it and you'd have to pull over stop your bicycle blue - gold brings that feeling back with four ingredients two ingredients get the blood flow pumping and two get your brain aroused there's a reason blue - is the number one brand for better sex experience it yourself at blue - you.com and we've got a special deal for our listeners right now when you buy two months of blue - you get the third free with promo code Theo that's promo code THO you will also receive an 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Today's episode is brought to you by man scaped the men's grooming brand trusted by over 14 million men worldwide jeeps that's that's most of the men let's be real a lot of grooming tools either overcomplicate things or they just don't perform that well so if you've got a beard or you're thinking about upgrading your setup the new beard had your plus from man scaped is worth checking out I've used a lot of tremors and most or them are kind of clunky this one's simple it's got a quick adjust slider so you just move it and you're dialed in you're locked and yes it's waterproof too so you can trim at the sink or in the shower if you want something simple that actually works and upgrades your routine the beard had your plus is the way to go head to man scaped.com and use code Theo for 15% off plus free shipping that's 15% off your entire order plus free shipping with code Theo at man scaped.com or if you need it today you can also find man scaped at a store near you what's those interrogations like they get pretty intense sometimes I can yeah that one did because I mean you know it's like but but again what do you think about it say you're I'm like I've I've interviewed not this not that case but you're interviewing somebody this nickname is Elucha once because the cartels are to cut two of his fingers off they've been tortured they'd be know that me yelling at them how am I gonna work this to where I can get something out of you I can't I can't chop your fingers off right we have a constitution yeah that would be framed upon yeah maybe yeah yeah I mean yeah I mean you gotta you've hoped to play by the rules yeah did you see some pretty severe stuff that came across the board like how how intense is some of those scenarios and stuff down there like you hear so much about the cartels and like the level of violence that's like almost something that we can't even maybe fathom sometimes a lot of people don't they value life a little differently I'm not saying hispanics because I did somebody's gonna say oh you're saying all hispan I'm not I love I mean I got tons of that thing to friends and but the cartel at the time I was down there Ozeo Cardenas was running it which once Department of Justice took him off it actually created a vacuum because now everybody's like well who's gonna run the Gulf cartel and then you got the enforcers the Satan's that are saying you know what we're the ones that kidnapped everybody and towards them we're gonna run it and then you got maybe the government saying they're gonna do it and then send you low a cartel comes in it says we're taking over and then you
you just end up with a bunch of heads and bags and vans. - Really? - Yeah, I mean, is that a real thing, heads and bags and vans? - Yeah, yeah, I mean, if you, like, it was getting bad enough to where, this was shortly after I left, but it was getting bad enough to where, because everybody's vying for the territory. If you're in a territory and you have a decent vehicle, like, looks like you've got some kind of money, 'cause there's really not a lot of middle class, you're either low or high, and you're going through the wrong territory, neighborhood, whatever, and maybe it's the state that's going, well, you're not one of us, or you're one of the senior lower cartel, and they pull it over, and, I mean, yeah. Then there's been innocent bystanders lost, because they didn't know any better, and, you know. - I mean, almost investing in a damn zoo down there in Sinaloa, buddy of mine. William was bought into a zoo down there. - Well, I mean, I've never been to Sinaloa, so there's probably like a lot of places that are outside the United States. There's gonna be, well, it's just like in the United States. It's gonna be good and bad, yeah. - Oh, yeah, my friend Andrew just went fishing down there, and he said he had one of the best experiences of his whole life, some of the greatest fishing he's ever done. - Yeah. - What's smuggling, did you see? Did you see any human trafficking? We hear about that term so much, what did you see? - So, when I got there, I was working drugs, obviously you're on the border, but you got every federal agency there, legacy ice, D-A-T-F-Us, F-B-I. - D-T-F, if there's some hotties, huh? - Yeah, yeah. (laughing) - That's all kinds of stuff. When I got down there, I was working drugs at first. I mean, it could be 50 kilos of cocaine and a tire. - No, you see that much? - Yeah. - That's the most you ever saw, man. - I personally, probably getting to that 100 kilo mark. - How much is that? Show me where your hands. - Well, a kilo is 2.2 pounds, so 100 of those. - Wow, really? I saw two eight balls once. - I know, way bigger than that. - Indestant, it was indestant. - Yeah, two eight balls. Ice about five at a time, undercover. - Undercover. - Undercover. - Yeah, all the time, yeah. - God, sweet. - You get deeper and you get into more serious. Now you're getting up to like ounces, you're getting up to kilo buys and-- - So you'd see real that much cocaine, you saw real cocaine. - Yeah, yeah. - Was it hard not to smile when you saw it? - No, you smile after the take down, and then you get the photo. You go up there and do your trophy shot, you know? But that's nothing. Just picture if you were working in Miami, and then like I'm saying where I worked, man, 100 kilos, but you go down the border, well man, you can trip over 500 pounds, just riding up and down the river. - Yeah. - 'Cause it's so porous and stuff. But the biggest weed seizure I got was 5,000 pounds. - Wow. - We literally filled up two trucks. I mean, my truck was loaded. I was sitting in the seat like this, but I can't even, it was just packed and we loaded another truck. - Yeah, it was a lot. - Did you even get a buzz driving with it? 'Cause you smell it, was it that strong of a smell? - Yeah, it's strong, yeah. - Yeah. - But dude, one time he my friend, Billy Conforto, RIP, and he was one of the, he was one of the first gay male prize fighters in America. But we got taken out of a car with some weed on it, some pounds of weed, the cops pulled us over like shit. So we put it in our front, like in our pants, and the cops was like, I'm gonna sit y'all in the cruise while I search the vehicle. So he sat us in there and we just had it in there. - Was it rigging like, huh? - What's good, you smell it? - I don't know why he's thought that, but it was like, well, he just put us in there. We had it in our, so now we're sitting with it in the cruiser. He searched the car and then he said, okay, nothing to see there. Put you guys back in it, you guys take it easy. - There you go. - So I don't know what made him think it. Maybe he did smell it originally. - But you like to find another thing? - We got lucky that day. - Yeah, it was fun. - And we didn't do too much, you know, we weren't doing anything real heavy over there. And I think back then if you were gay, you had to be hard to even just get through it. It was a different time. If you're prize fighting too, you know. But I'm anyway. - What were you talking about? - So I've seen a lot of the dope stuff, but just picture, if you're in Miami, like I just told you 100 kilos and you think that's a lot, well, what if you bust up in the hole of a ship and you've got 2,000 kilos? I mean, then you see that stuff. And I'm like, I've never seen 2,000, but I've seen some big stacks. - Does it get competitive to be on a big bus? - Yeah, sure, friendly competition, or I call it friendly. DEA versus FBI, yeah, we always bust chops, and you're working cases together. But then I switched to Alien Smugwin, because at that point in time, in McCallan, well, I guess in the Bureau, it was becoming a serious topic to look at special interest alien Smugwin. And it's not just, you're not saying hey, I'm looking for the normal human trafficking. We are looking for people being smuggled in from threat countries. So like your threat countries, Russia, China. - And why would they be being smuggled in? Like what is? - Well, that's what we're trying to figure out. - Got it, so you just-- - Are they up, are they coming in here with the various plans, or are they legitimately trying to get out of where they're at? - Is it-- - So a better life. - Got it. It's interesting to me that that would be kind of an assignment for you guys, right? Or that would come down as part of the detail. But then at the same time, you would have the government that would lack it, basically, it would seem allow people to come into the country, right? It seems like they're trying to play both sides of the scale there. - Yeah, I don't like it. - Did it ever feel to you like, the government was starting some of the problems that you guys were then being hired to go and solve? Like did it ever-- - Well, ATF's Fast and Furious, that would be a yes. I mean, there's plenty of documentaries out there and some good books. - Oh, is that-- I'm not even familiar with that. - Fast and Furious, that's when they-- - A movie. - No, no, no, no, no. That was their operation, Fast and Furious, where they were, it was alleged that they were allowing guns to go to the cartel. And then those guns would show back up, yeah, those guns would show back up and one of those guns killed the board of patrol agent. - Wow. - But you're smuggling, so look at it like this, and I'm not trying to bash anybody. I mean, ever-- - No, it doesn't seem like it ever asked you. - Everybody's got, every agency has their black eyes, but just look at it this way. If I released a kilo of cocaine into the streets and it came from me and FBI agent, anybody gets sick, hurt, killed over that, that's my fault, that's a liability. So I'm looking at it the same way with fully automatic weapons and stuff. - Yeah. - I just know that, I know as a case agent, working what I've worked, how hard it is to get approvals for anything close to that. So it was a little dumbfounded at how-- - How that worked out. - How the heck that happened, you know? - Just so our listeners know about it. Operation Fast and Furious, a controversial 2009 and 2011 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco Firearms and explosives, sting operation used a gun walking tactic, letting illicit firearms pass to Mexican cartels to track high-level leaders, which failed when track weapons were lost and used in violent crimes, wow. So they let them through to be able to kind of maybe, I guess they would tag them or find some way to trade, follow them so they could know who these people were that were getting them the high levels, but then those were used to kill our own people. - Yeah. - Led by the Phoenix Arizona Field Office under Project Gun Runner, allowed straw buyers to illegally purchase thousands of weapons with the intent to trace them to major cartel leaders. Agents were ordered not to interdict or seize weapons during purchases, losing track of roughly 2000 farms. They were exposed after the Border Patrol agent, Brian Terry was killed in 2010 by rifles tied to the operation, resulted in Attorney General Eric Holder being held in contempt of Congress in 2012 for withholding documents through a Department of Justice report clear to, though a Department of Justice report clear to, of direct knowledge of the tactic. So was this, this was happening while you were working? - Yeah. - And did that scare you? - I'm probably gonna get a lot of hate from ATF. I'm sorry about that. I love ATF. I got a lot of friends at ATF. - Well, I have a lot of friends that do a lot of things and it doesn't mean that they're bosses or the people above them may not be having some separate interest at times. - Right, and the FBI, we're an easy target too. They can make a name for any of the things that they do. (laughing) - Oh, yeah. - But yeah, I'm just thinking of the top of my head. Like, and you know, you got to be careful because like, let me use an example. Like, I'm a Vice-Narcotics Investigator. So in Greenville, South Carolina at the time I was there, it was illegal to gamble. - Okay. - So maybe we identify three major gambling operations. Maybe we pop one of the ones or go and interview them and flip them, but the head of that one is now giving us information on the other two and we're working the other two. But you don't want a white ebulger situation where you're letting your source go and wreak havoc for free while it's always a, you know what I mean? It's a balance. - Yeah, and that's why when we do stuff like that, if you're providing information, we let you know what you can and can't do. And I've told many, many sources that I've had for about 28 years of career. I'll be like, look, if you do this, I cannot take up for you at all. But if you call me before it happens, I can take up, you know what I mean? It's kind of that thing. - Right, understood. - Oh wow. - Yeah. So, when dealing with informants, this has got to be pretty fast. - Yeah. - You dealt with a lot of informants. - A bunch. For me, operating an informant for me is a lot like undercover and they match because when I'm an undercover, I'm essentially being a source for another FBI agent. It's just that I'm not a criminal. I don't have a felon on my record. I'm actually a bonded law enforcement officer. But I'm still going in and getting the information. I'm still getting the recorded stuff. I'm still that person. So for me, when I'm dealing with sources, like you're doing what I do on other cases. But I'm asking you to do it for me.
First of all, what people in like towns and regular towns in America are actually not being like informants or gnarks or whatever, because dude, when I was in school, you always hear like Ricky's gnark or whatever. - You gnark. - Yeah, dude, Ricky would be like one kid like, "Worth a wrong PE outfit." And he was like, "That guy's a fucking gnark." Gnark was the biggest thing, bro, and people, and sometimes you'd even find somebody who'd gnarch. Yeah, snitch, you got a little card from like the local police department that said they were helping them and stuff. Like every now and then they had like this, like I don't even think it was a laminated bro, that bitch got wet and it didn't exist. But what types of people like in towns or actually are the first types of people you would get as informants for certain things, or is that not even a real thing? Like, or like at a high school, I'm just trying to think, I would say it depends on what violation you're working. - Okay. - If I'm working gangs, and I'm working transnational organized crime, which is what I worked for a long time, well then maybe I'm gonna try to find and develop a source that can give me information on this like this card, this whatever, this group that's been bringing in drugs that we've heard about, or what if it's multiple robberies? We're trying to find somebody to know something about, have you heard any scatter, any skeletal butt? Maybe you talk to ladies of the night, some prostitutes escorts and say, hey, if you know things like that. But you can also be a highfalutin case, I'm saying highfalutin because look at me, I'm not highfalutin, but it could be like an espionage cat, it could be like a white collar case, and maybe the sources for those are very upstanding members of society. And you can go talk to them and say, hey, I was wondering if you could give me some information, maybe like I would love to give you some information. Me, I'm talking, when I say development sources, when I was working, I'm like, I'm talking about going to somebody that you may never would hang out with, that you may think as a piece of trash or not, but those people have never like law enforcement. And I'm talking to that person, and after a conversation, I've heard things, you hear things like, man, for a cop, you know, for a cop, you're not that bad. Oh, I didn't know there were cops like you, so you just, it's on you, but yeah, I mean, that's the way I would do it, and I do think it goes hand in hand. But if you don't know, in my opinion, if you don't know how to develop and operate sources, I don't think you're probably going to be an awesome undercover. Do you ever have to pick like disguises or was there like a war like yet, it's somebody help like fit you for a scene, did they give you a photo or like a look book like, hey, here's what you can wear and not wear? Were there like, was there ever a thing where you couldn't wear a certain patch, like if it was like a certain gang affiliation? Of course. Like, how did you manage that? Take me in a little bit of that. It's really coming down to the intelligence of the case teams bringing you in. Hopefully they've done their due diligence and as an undercover, you can ask those questions. Now, is there a wardrobe department? No, but do we have things in the undercover program where maybe you could get some jewelry and stuff like that? Yeah, we've got that. But as far as like wearing the wrong patch or not, that's going to be again, ultimately, it's on me as the undercover. Like if I, if I want to know. Like if I ask for a weapon that doesn't come back to law enforcement, well, I shouldn't just take their word for it. I'll probably need to run that number in NCIC to make sure it doesn't come back to FBI quantum code because I've been on cases that that happened. Like, what does that mean? Like, it means like it, so you got serial numbers on your weapons. If they check that in NCIC, it's going to come back to something. Well, sometimes bad people have contacts that can run that kind of stuff, whether it's through corruption or whatever. Oh, I see. So if your weapon has your number on it and they see that. And they run it and it says, oh, this is a Glock 22 FBI, Quantico. Right. And that's. So I was undercover. And I'd requested a fully covert weapon, whatever it's supposed to be working with ATF and everything. And I was probably six months in to the undercover. Somehow I was on the call with Quantico and asking how we get the way. It's drawn out, but basically the guy's like, oh, at that point in time, he goes, well, really don't have any covert weapon. I looked at the good run this weapon right now through the trainee and they ran it and said, FBI, Quantico. And I'm like, I'm like, bro, I mean, I could have just carried my normal weapon. That goes back to Quantico too, but it really is on you. But for me, I'll tell you what I have done. If I go in and I meet a source, I'll ask them, like sometimes my beard's this long and long hair, which is getting less and less now. I'm going to be thinning out here even more soon. But the thing is, as they'll go, I'll ask them, hey, I was on an undercover. Meet the person we talk for hours. I'll come back and meet him again because I'm trying to figure out here. Am I the right fit? Is this going to work? Because we're going to be basically undercover, yeah. We're basically going to be undercover together. And I'll say, does this work? And they would look and go, nah, man, that's too dirty. We're red necks, but we're clean cut red necks. And I said, well, what do you do? I said, how about like a nice go to you? Cause I get a normal hair cut. They'll be perfect, man, button up, shirt, untucked. I'm like, who? Now, I'm just doing that. So I don't look like a, like way out of place. I want to look, I'm mirroring them. Got it. But for me, I always stuck really close to who I was. I was always Scott. Different last name, but I may or may not have played football in college. I may or may not be a musician in the singer. May or may not be married with kids. Or for your degree, but you can bet most likely I ride motorcycles and I lift weights. And then you just kind of go from there because my jokes are literally the same. I'm just twisting them because it's real to me. Yeah, I tell the true story. Have you ever been in an, in an instance where you weren't even the best choice for the role, but you ended up in it? Yeah, absolutely. We call, I mean, you can word it a right case wrong undercover, right undercover, wrong case. But I had a buddy of mine and he was running, he's an undercover as well, but he was the case agent. And he was running this undercover on like a dirty doctor selling pills or giving pills for sex stuff like that. The idea was because of my background to come in and be the closer to get this doctor on drug trafficking, right? Got it. And I came in and I basically said I'm a competitive power lifter, but I'm getting older. Bills are getting tight and I need something for the pain kind of thing. I was trying to do that because they'd already had a bunch of reporting of like this, this doctor like, you know, a woman goes in for a visit. She prescribes her a bunch of pills or whatever she leaves and there's a used condom in the trash can. Got it. And you're like, oh, okay, all right. And then maybe somebody reports, hey, this doctor tried to do this to me or something like that. So now I'm coming in as a new patient and I knew a lot of the pill mill stuff because I was working it as a case agent as well. But yeah, I was just the wrong guy. Like I did the first meet and then the second time I came back, he started telling me, well, you know, Scott sometimes people come in here and they get these and they go sell them on the street and I was like, I never said I was going to do that. I said, I'm in pain, man. He's like, what? And I left the meeting that day and I went to hand over the recording of the case agent. And there was my friend and I told him I said, I'm not the right guy. Man, you don't need me to send me back in there. I said, I don't know what it is, but he does not like me. Can you feel when something doesn't fit? Yeah, yeah, because if you, yeah, yeah, you can feel it, especially if you're trying to force it. You know, and I tried a little bit that day with that guy, but he was not something about me. I don't know whether he thought I was a snitch or a Fed or something or something, but he didn't, maybe he didn't feel he could control me. But I was not the right guy for the job. What are some things, isn't it undercover? It's like general rule of thumb that you don't want to do. It's like, do you not want to talk much? Is it case by case basis? Yeah, I mean, it depends on, I mean, there's actually attorney general guidelines on what we can and can do. Like we can't be involved in an act of violence unless it's self-defense. You can't like instigate the crime, you know, because I'd be in trapment, you know? Instigate and run the crime and then all of a sudden, now you're under arrest, you know? Have there ever been romantic things that happen along the way where it's like there's almost temptation for that or you met somebody like, well, shit, I'm spending half my days or in this environment, you know? I've been in situations where, yeah, but you don't do that. You don't do that. I've seen other things where, you know, maybe people fall in love. It's just think about it like this. We've got my luck. And I'm doing a deep undercover and I'm at this bar and you start hitting on me and I actually as a single man and and and we end up hooking up and dating my luck. That's going to end up being the target sister or something, you know what I mean? Is that frowned upon? Can you legally do that though? No, it'd be a policy violation. I got it. Yeah, it'd be a policy violation. Now maybe in like if you go super high spot, I don't know, you know, I don't know all the CIA's rules. I don't know in my five and my six is rules, but yeah, that would be, it would just be a bad foundation period, even if that person ended up not being. I'd rather you, I'd rather you bring in your real wife who isn't also an undercover FBI agent. Yeah, then y'all just be you, you know, if you got that. Do you think that most of us interact with undercover officers or agents within our lives without even realizing it? I wouldn't say that because literally like in the Biker world, they call it like you got the 1% or Biker clubs, they say that if you're an undercover in law enforcement, you're a 1% or because there's like 1% of law enforcement that does undercover work.
I see. So you don't think most of us have interacted probably with an undercover agent without realizing it. You might have based on some of your history thugs. Oh yeah, you know, they can depend on where I'm at. I might have. But, you know, yeah, I know. I suppose we have met. I know, but if I was at the, uh, if I was at the Oak Ridge laboratory, now I'm probably not running into an undercover. I don't think. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe you could be, if you're trying to sell, you know, uh, uh, a classified material, then yeah. But I wouldn't, I wouldn't. I don't, I don't want a friend like that. Yeah. I don't, but it's not that common that most of us just regular people have interacted with the undercover agent in our likes. You don't think so. I don't think so. Got it. Well, I don't think paranoid either. There are some people like what if everybody in this room is an intelligence officer. I'm like, what if they are? Right. They're trying to get information. I'm trying to get information by me a drink. Yeah. You know, pay for this state. Um, yeah, what is a one percent? Are you here about that term a lot? And that's a gang. I like your gang motorcycle clubs. If you are considered a one percent or a motorcycle club, let's see, after Vietnam War. Um, and everybody should, well, I don't know about these days, who knows if they know about Vietnam War, but you, they would come in, uh, soldiers were coming back and they weren't treated very well. And there was no kind of a transition thing, you know, or decompression. Um, and a lot of the motorcycle clubs. Um, I mean, they started back in World War II and stuff like that. But a lot of these motorcycle clubs, uh, were forming and they were doing some, you know, rowdy stuff. So the president of the American motor American motorcycle association. I think what it was called comes out and does this media blitz to say, hey, 99% of all motorcycle riders are good, law-abiding citizens. So they took that as a badge honor and said, we're then with a one percent, we're one percenters. And it's a patch on there. On there. Yeah. So you're like, you see one percent or you're going to see the big ones, hell's angels, outlaws, Mongols, paintings. They like to be the out. They like to be the, well, we're not the one. We're the, we're the non-law body doing our own thing. I like that. So am I saying it could be, yeah, yeah, that's the patch right there. Yeah, everybody always asked that, you know, they're like, well, are you saying all one percenter bike or clubs or criminals? Like, I know. But it kind of goes being a one percenter. I mean, if you're not, I mean, I'm not saying that means you got to get rid of the law, but you're definitely not. It's just saying you got a edge. Yeah, you don't care about the law, basically. Yeah, you like a, or you like to, you got some of your own laws as well. Yeah, yeah, that's what I think. A one percenter. Yeah, this is it's all interesting because some of these terms I've heard before and it's nice to just kind of get to like hear them in the use of the world that they're from. Yes. Take me into your experience with the outlaws, right? That's a biker gang. You were involved with where you went undercover. Yes. That was the longest one I did two years. Okay. I've done like, if I look back at my career, I could be like, yeah, there was a year and a half case. That was a year and a half case. You'd go with the case takes you a lot of times. Or the case ends because something happened. They're like, we're not doing this like something like somebody got hurt or something, but for the outlaws, I was already a certified undercover. I'd already done, I'd already done several undercover in the bureau, but I had all the state and local experience too. And I was already role play in and helping at the undercover school that we have. And this is in South Carolina. Oh, no, no, no, no, by the time I was doing that, I was living in McAllen, Texas. Okay. Got it. Yeah. So when I got when I got hired out of the FBI, or when I got hired out of South Carolina for the FBI, when I came out of Kwanaka, my first office is in New York City, which goes back to the sergeant, which is funny because I did not pick it as number one. It was like 36 out of 56. So when I went back from my pick up my clothes and have the after have the going away party for Scott, I went out there and I go, dude, you jinxed me, man, I'm like, I got in New York City, but it's wrong. But I was actually assigned to New York, when 9/11 happened, but the day of I was undercover. I was in Texas. But so now I'm moved down to Texas. I'm in McAllen. I'm a case agent. So I'm still doing that stuff. Firearms. Okay. Okay. So you down in McAllen. Yeah. And then as a certified undercover, I can't remember if if they canvassed through an email or did I get a phone call from somebody because once you start going back and role play in and. Teaching at the undercover school, I mean, the best way to describe it is, let's just say, I scared me, man, awesome bit me my phone vibrated. So I get a call because you're starting to get known if you're role playing at the school. And what. What do you mean at the school? So there's an undercover school to get certified just like just like to become an FBI agent. I mean, it's not five months. So there's an undercover school, an academy. Two weeks. Yeah. And you learn how to be undercover? Well, you got to pass. It's not so much that you're learning. It's just that you're learning techniques and stuff. But yeah, you got to pass. And what are some of the techniques you learn there? Sorry that I didn't, I didn't grasp on to this before. Like is it almost acting teachers that are there teaching? No, no. So it won't give away everything for the school, but I'll give away what's kind of out there. The FBI undercover school is considered one of the toughest certification schools, the FBI puts on some say it is the toughest. I'll say HRT is the toughest because HRT is tier one, swat on steroids is two weeks as well for the trial. What does it mean HRT hostage rescue team? Okay. So you can be swat in all your divisions like I was swat in in McAllen, San Antonio division. I was swat in Knoxville. But HRT is at Quantica based on a Quantica hell yeah. Hostage rescue team and I mean, they're hot, they trained with the tier one teams. This high speed, my high speed, you know, helicopters, all that stuff. But that one is also a two week try out the very physical and mental. A lot of times, at least from what I'm I understand HRT is yeah, HRT is like you just want to get through the two weeks without getting injured and you went through it. No, no, I was going to if I went to God on a New York City, I was going to die down to probably around 250 pounds. And then because there's a lot of running. And I was going to go try out that does that mean I would have made it know that a lot of people don't ever I don't know if I haven't known anybody that made it their first time, but well, but the undercover school is two weeks. Yeah, what are some of the course? What do you have? So you're going to the gist is this big on sleep deprivation. No days off. That sleep deprivation brings out weaknesses, right? So you're going to be getting training during the day. I might teach a block on the outlaws. I might teach a block on white supremacy cases that I've worked. Maybe somebody else is teaching. Maybe it's the legal person. Whatever you're going to get training during the day and at night, generally the way it was running when I was in at night, you're going to be doing role playing scenarios. You're probably going to get to a night and everybody goes to every scenario. That way there's no liability. In other words, you can't say, hey, that person's background is drugs and you only gave them undercover drug scenarios. What's like as an example scenario, you probably go through it. They probably wouldn't want me to say that's fair because it'll give it away. That's fair. But we just say this, you're getting tested. You may die. You may die miserably in a scenario and then you got to turn around and go, all right, buck up a little camper. We're still got one more for the night, you know? If you go over two in one night, bro, yeah, yeah, and then and I will tell you this. I got certified in 02 2002. I started role playing in 2003 and I probably only miss a handful of schools in my 23 years of FBI. And I never knew or heard of a 100% graduation rate. It doesn't mean that it's hazing and none of that stuff. It just means that it's a great certification school and not everybody's cut out for undercover understood. What do you think is another one thing that blows like an officer's cover? I blow in the cover. Oh, man. There could be I mean bad bad backstop and bad having a bad legend. You slipping up and not knowing your stuff. I think a story or whatever. Yeah, you need to know it and picture picture. If you're undercover for two years, I'll meet you on day one. Whatever I say right now, I need to remember two years from now. So that's why I stuck close to who I was. And as I got. Oh, now in early in the game. Oh, man, I was making like I'd be undercover and I'd be signing my name. Scott Payne. And undercover. I the P would form. And I could do something I'm Callaway and I do. But then I'd be home as Scott Payne and I would sign Scott Callaway and you're like, that government. But lucky for me, I ended up getting better at it. And by the time I was whenever tired, I think I had like eight phones. I had like one FBI one personal everything else was undercover. And I just I just get so I got so good because I'd be like, I'm sick because it sounds like I'm chest beating, but it just it was easier for me to do like out of the phone with ring and I'd see the skull and the color and I go, okay, that's that case. What's up brother? How's it going? But you know, that's that case. Yeah. Hey, man. Yeah. So at one time, you were actually involved in how many cases? Oh, man, I said, so there are again, I'll say it again. They were men and women out there have done way more than me, for sure. But I will say that for my 23 years in the FBI, if you were a full time undercover like, like you're not doing anything else under cover, that was pretty rare as an FBI agent. Because, as I said, I was still expected to run cases and do whatever back in my office. Right. So, but you were working full on full time undercover. There was. I know I can remember twice. Maybe there was a third time that I was listed full time undercover in the FBI, but all the other times, I would it might be two weeks undercover, but I go back home. And then I'm a case agent again. And I've got to run training for everybody. And fire arms and tactics. You ever do, like, Chef, or you ever been in like a, because I could also see you. I just thought of this, man. I'm thinking of ways I could see you doing undercover. And I'm thinking dessert chef. Yes, because a lot of those guys, you know, they'll have a beard. They'll have some face.
to have tattoos 'cause it's a lot of art. - Oh, no, y'all can put the hair net off. - It's art totally. - It's artistic people that are our kind of chefs. You know what I'm saying? It's like, that's kind of like an artistic style. - It's like, uh, screw the screw in the, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, that frosting pipette. - You like it to pipette? - You put a, you want to pipette? - You put a set of handcuffs on a nuclear, you know? Yeah, I got to see you doing something like that. - All law enforcement things, that's pretty good. - Was there pretty, but most of the ones that you did, it was pretty close to who you were though. - Yeah, the exception would be when I got called for murder for hire 'cause I'm a jokester. I got pretty sick since the humor. I may know, I just say this like a, I might not know a lot, but I know funny. - Yeah, that's funny. - So, since the humor, Javiel, but when I'm doing a murder for hire, or what I would call a closer, like if you're somebody wanting to do something bad and you're meeting me and you want a bomb, I call it like a closer. Like, I'm providing you with a gun that you want to go shoot up a synagogue or something like that. - Got it. - I call that a closer. So, those, Javiel in this case away, I mean, I wouldn't, there's no point in me really building a rapport with you 'cause you think I'm a still called killer. And the Stone Cold kid, that's usually quicker cases too. - Have there been some murder for hire that you got involved with? - Oh yeah, really. - And who's often trying to kill whom? Is there a commonality there? - Well, I would say it would be spousal, right? It would probably be the most, but it would be like, wife, cheating wife and her, the man she's cheating with, solicit me to kill the husband because there's like a $92,000 life insurance plan. I never, the stuff you see in the movies, and I mean, I've known some of my mentors that have done those $100,000 payment hits. I'm like, I ain't, not in my world, man. It was 10 grand. I'll give you 10, yeah, I'll give you 12 grand after we collect the money insurance policy. You're telling me, you want me to go kill somebody on your word and we, no, it's not how this works. - Yeah. - So give me something, you know? - And where would they meet? Where does somebody like that usually try to meet you at for the first time? Like, is there a general place in people? - No, I mean, I've met them in hotel rooms. I've met them at their place. - Right. - One of the ones in the book, I got, they believed we were bikers. I brought in a task force officer. They believe we were one percent of bikers and they were hiring us to do four home invasions and murder, I think two or three people. But what they do is they knew where the dope was because the sun was running the dope and the money. So he knew of four different drug dealers and he knew where the cash was at, where the guns were at, where the dope was at, and every house. So the plan was to do four home invasions and then murder two of them. And then I get some money, I guess. - And I'm not mad. - That seems like a lot. And she was, she was a wild one, man. - Yeah. - This was later in my career. And I, like I told you, I would joke around and be like, with headquarters, I'm like, how come I don't get to go to like, you know, overseas and how come I don't get to get on big boats, you know? Yeah, I get on one if I'm cleaning it, you know what I mean? Okay, I'm getting the chome out the back, you know. - Yeah, why don't I get the big deal? - Yeah, what is this? Oh, I get to carry the luggage, that's cool. - Yeah, if I'm in advance the environment, it's because I was muscle for the main person there. That's it. - Amen, yes. So if you need that guy to stand there, just a guy. - In the back, you know, but was your ever, were you ever in an environment where somebody pulled out a weapon and he was really? - Oh yeah, yeah, I have been. But let me tell you about Tammy real quick though. - Okay. - So. - Yeah, tell him about Tammy. - So we go, for this one case, and it was in Ohio, and this lay, we think we know we're going to meet the husband. And we thought it was the husband's plan, 'cause we've talked to somebody, let's talk to them, and then we know that they're looking for somebody to do this kind of thing. - You thought it was husband's plan, did you? - Yeah, so we go to the garage and, you know, we're talking to the husband and he's like, "Well, it's not my plan, it's my old ladies." And I'm like, "Why are we talking to you then?" Where's the old lady? She's like, "Oh, she's sleeping." We're all staring, awkward silence. You think I should go wake her up? I said, "I didn't drive all the way out here to talk to no one." - Yeah. We're going to do business, let's do business. He goes and wakes her up, she hops into truck in the front passenger seat. They're in the back. She is tweaking, she's clawing herself, flex the skin, or going everywhere. We're probably inhaling it, you know? - Oh, yeah. Oh, you can cook up a little bit of that skin, and grill you up a little bowl of it. - Four grinds? - Yeah. - Hit it. - Smok that cheese. - That's some four grinds. But that's the real four, some four grinds, man. So we're driving, and as she's showing us all these spots, she's like talking out fast, she's kind of tweaking a little bit, at least that's my opinion. I don't know if she was on drugs. - And she's hiring to kill the husband? - No, she, it was her idea. She just, she, I mean, the husband's involved, but it was her idea. So she's the one that gets in the car because it's her son that's driving around the dope for these people. - Got it. - So she's showing us these spots, but why she's showing us these spots? She starts talking out this crazy stuff. She's like, she's like, you know, I'm really into torture. So if you need anybody tortured that you bring, if you, I'm really big into it. And I'm like, okay, driving, I'm like, all right. And again, it's later on my career. I'm just kind of, I don't know if I'm nonchalant or desensitized or whatever you want to call it, but I'm driving. She says, you know that you can take a, I'm getting graphic on here, right? 'Cause it's graphic, okay. So she says in the book anyway. She says, you know, you can take a hanger and bend it on the end and shove it into the man's penis. Sorry, I hit the microphone. So I said, bend the hanger on the end, shoving into a man's penis, rip it back out and then pour salt in the womb. Now, the guys in the back are going, oh, goodness great, oh man. And I'm like, literally two weeks prior to that, I'd had my second lumbar fusion. The surgery was great and an easy recovery, but they had messed up. I had to get dry cat. So as she described in that, and I'm like, that's pretty much what I felt too. Oh man. So this ain't home with kids. So then she's like, and then you can take, there's another one you can do. You can take a PVC pipe and shove it up somebody's anus, run barbed wire up in it and rip their anus from the inside out. Well, that's insane. Right, and I'm looking at her and I'm going, we pull up to the red light and I lean over and I go, why are you so angry? And she's like, yeah. She said, I think one of the lines, I don't know if she used it right then or later, she said, I've been unlucky and love. Wow. So as we're, where she talking damn, I mean, she's looking and she's doing like, it sounds like she's doing side quests from Home Depot or something in Laredo or whatever. Like, 'cause that shit's, I mean, I was like, I was undercover in Laredo. What is she talking about, dude? She sounds just like an angry ex-lose employee or whatever. So we're driving and I'm like, are you sure you don't want to kill these people? She goes, no, no, everybody knows me around here. But if you need somebody to torture, I can torture them. I'm like, oh my gosh. So we pull up to the next red light and she says, you know, my husband, I told him never go on a bender again. She said, he was gone for three or four days up all the time. I can't think it was cocaine. She said it was using, but went on a cocaine bender. She said, he came back, she couldn't find him. He came back. She said, he passed out so hard. He didn't wake up, you know what she did to him? And he's a skinny man. She said, so I went and got a two by four. And I shoved it under his legs and I took an industrial stapler and stapled his scrotum to the board. And he didn't even wake up from it. He's trying to stand up, but it's stapled to the board behind him. And he's trying to move and he's screaming for her to take it out. She said, no, he had to call his friend over to do it. We confirmed it with the husband. No. I thought, man, she's got to be full of it. And he said, no, she did it. And I said, and you're still with her? He said, I ain't never had nobody do nothing like that to him. I'm like, go. It's, sometimes love is just, it's so, it's violent. I know. And so when she said that part, as we're pulling up to stop, because one of the, the task force officer, he was like, he goes, man, remind me never to piss you off, you know one of those things, you know? And when we pulled up, you know, all that stuff thrown through my head, all the scenarios. And when we pulled up, I go, you watch a lot of slasher flicks and she goes, I saw all a watch and I went, man, I was making sense. She's talking about human centipede, like so, and a body into a body, and I'm like, good, gravy. I'm like, but in my mind, I'm laughing to myself because I'm going, these are my people. This is what my skillset leaves me to, you know what I mean? I go back in the back woods and somebody's talking, not, not, not trying to chastise anybody, but they're talking, they don't have any teeth, and their lips aren't moving. I had to revert back to my family, some distant people in my family to go, okay, now I know what they're saying. Yes, probably. Now, now I know what they're saying, because at first, I'm like, what, and I'm going, oh, I know what you're saying. Yeah, this way, yeah. I'm translating. Oh, yeah, well, you never really lose where you're from, you know, just start hanging out with them. I'll get more and more country. Oh, dude, yeah, that happens quick. You go home and you just, and home comes back to you, you know, because it's always been there, sometimes it just, like, it sits on the sideline, sometimes it's, it's intermingled with the new places you're at. Was there ever any spaces where you got involved, and there was like, like, human sight, like any, any type of like sacrificial or like ceremonial stuff that kind of went on? Yeah. Yeah. So, working domestic terrorism, we started seeing a shift where a lot of the white supremacist groups were claiming to be Odinist, right? They were claiming to be pagans, but that's not illegal. And I've got some very good friends who are pagans, and they are Odinist. So if, if, Odinist, bring that up. Odinist. Odinist. Okay. Odinism is generally a racialist, oriented practice that places the highest fundamental of you.
on the figure of Odin. Odinus pagan usually refers to a Norse Germanic pagan who centers their practice on the God Odin, but in modern usage the term Odinist is heavily entangled with far right racialist groups. In a straightforward religious sense, Odinism is a form of Germanic Norse paganism that honors Odin as a chief deity, along with other Norse gods such as Thor, Freya, Freyr and Frig. Can you give me any better information about it? Yeah, because I'm going to disagree with what that just said, because that's what I was getting ready to say. Okay. The pagan part right there, relationship to pagan, that would read that. Okay. Because maybe they're telling the word Odinist to white supremacy, but that was what I was going to say. That true pagans are upset because Hitler used a lot of Odinism stuff. You would see the sun and grad, you would see all the all the Norse-type ruins and stuff, but that doesn't mean that they're white supremacy. So maybe you want to do that. Odinism is a modern neo-pagan religion that revives the ancient Norse and Germanic worship of deities like Odin and Thor, emphasizing personal honor, bravery and a connection to nature. While many practitioners view it as a universal nature-based faith, specific branches and extremist groups have co-opted the movement as a racially exclusive white supremacist ideology. Is that so? Yes. That's what I was talking about. Okay. Got it. So we started to see in a shift back, I guess you can say, because even under the Hitler neo-Nazi stuff, you would see a lot of Norse-roons and Norse mythology and stuff like that. But what years was this when you were seeing this? Well, I mean, so the base case that I want to talk about was 2019. We took it down in 2020. Okay. Got it. Yeah. Took it down in COVID year. So you start seeing that. I've got close friends here at Pagan's and you look at the Asatria community. They are unhappy. The Asatria community? Asatria is pagan. Asatria. Yeah. Asatria. Asatria. So they believe in the Norse pantheon. So what you read, Thor, Freya, you know, Friar. Friar and Frig and Frig Odin is the Norse, but there's their forget about it. Forget about it. That's the Italian one. There's, there's a, there are other pantheons where people might be like, oh, I'm an Egyptian pantheon or whatever. But we started seeing this stuff. And if you go and look at Pagan's, like back, well, I mean, he's fine at Christianity too. They were sacrifices, right? So we have the Bible as sacrifice in it. Yeah. Old Testament. So one of the cases I did, I whistle, it's hard. So one of the cases I did was into an acceleration screw. So I go into great detail in the book, but it's like, if you ask the average person in America, you know, what do you think of white supremacist it is, a lot of them, they may know neo-Nazi, they may know like a skinhead, or they're going to say like KKK, Clucus clan, hoods, and robes and stuff. That's not what this is. These are accelerationists. And they don't believe that there's a political solution to save the white race. They believe that society's going to collapse either on his own or from man made of it, man made events. And they want to speed that up. They want to speed it up through guerrilla warfare tactics like just small hits, just picture like power grid goes down over here, water systems poisoned over here, trained derailed over here, anything to create chaos. Got it. I'm not saying it's the best game plan in the world and it's maybe hard to wrap your mind around, but they came under our radar from being online and recruiting. They were recruiting online. And in a lot of your accelerations also, groups were big on what we call fliring or stickering or post-ring. So you'll put up a flier and it'll be like save your race, join the base, you know, survivalist group. There you go. And see that QR code. So you'd scan that QR code and it takes you right to bitch shoot. And there's a recruitment video right there. And that's my picture right there. I mean, that those are bobbles being burnt right there in that fire. They are. Yeah. If you blow it up, you'll see a holy bobble on that picture. I can lean them it down. I don't even want to see that, but I believe that it's happening. And so and who's the people on the left? Is this that's the Christmas thing they do on the levee over there in Lafayette, is it? No, that'd be a 20 to 30 foot cross on fire with diesel fuel. I don't understand if man. Oh, no, there's a lot of history in the clue that's clean. Well, if we should have someone on some, I'm just to learn even about it. And there's Matt Damon. That's the obviously he was involved. Sorry, Matt. That's clean cut. That's clean cut, Scott Vane. Is it really? That's a Polaroid picture, yeah. Bro, oh my God, I just realized. Yeah, that's not. Bro, you do look like Matt Damon right there. Bro, you look like Matt Damon right now. No way. I'm not even joking. Bring up. People must tell you this all the time. No, I used to get confused for Toby Keith all the time. No. Be Keith, dude. You look like Matt Damon. Dude, that's picture does actually look like Matt Damon. I never realized that. Matt Damon is going to play you in your life story one day. That'd be pretty wild. Pretty good. Okay, so you're infiltrated. So you get into this group with the base and yeah, so yeah, how do things escalate? And what are you learning what you get in and you were telling me that for an erupt, you go on. So I'm going in to where they're posting because they're trying to recruit. And it would be like, you know, if you're interested, contact us at the base underscore one at protonmail.com. Again, proton mail thinking that it's fully encrypted. I think that was based out of rush. I'm not sure. I can't remember right now. But so I start liking some of their stuff. They start responding back and then I start emailing. So I go through like a week to a week and a half of emailed questions. Pretty thorough. What can you bring the table to set me other? And then I'm instructed to, I mean, my height, weight, ethnicity, all that stuff. And then it says, if you want to read that, oh, Geneva, Switzerland. All right, proton mills and Switzerland. Okay. Come on. All right. Thank you. So then I'm instructed to download the app, the wire app. It's called wire operates a lot like what's app. So I'm told to download it, reach out. And then on a Friday afternoon in July of 2019, I did like an hour and 15-minute panel interview. I couldn't see them, but I could hear like four to five voices. Really? And it was that what you guys will stand on two sides of a fence or something or what was going on. I was just on the app. Oh, so yeah. So I'm just listening to them and they're asking questions. And like I said, I don't know if they're going to tell me to cut my phone on, show myself. And so I was in a club. I'm picturing some damn home improvement type you're standing over the fence. I jumped in my truck and drove to a abandoned parking lot. And I was making sure I had anything. I cleaned it. Make sure there's nothing in there. It's this Scott pain or anything like that. I think you can see anything is to know where you're at. It's an old truck, you know. So I did that interview. And there was a lot of stuff because the acceleration is they they're their Bible is their Bible is basically a book called Siege that book siege was written by James Mason. He's a longtime white supremacist. He created Adam Woffan another accelerationist group. But it's essentially a bunch of interviews, but he idolizes like there's a lot of Satanism in there. He idolizes Charles Manson, things like that. But there's a lot of that. For instance, accelerationists, let me say this. So accelerationists, you know, you've seen the white supremacists that are out on the streets with picket signs and yelling during pride rallies or whatever. That's not an accelerationist. Yeah, the per the siege method. Number one, that makes you a target. Number two, let's everybody know you are. Got it. Number three, it does nothing for the cause. That's what they're saying. So we're going to do those guerrilla warfare. It's okay. That kind of thing. Bring it up again. See just want to see that real quick and side it. Siege, the collective writings of James Mason, anthology of essays by the neo-Nazi James Mason. After growing disillusion with the mass movement approach of neo-Nazi movements, Mason began advocating for white revolution through terrorism. Though the book was reviewed in several periodicals upon its release and was praised and distributed by the influential white supremacists, Tom Metzger, most neo-Nazi's at the time either ignored or criticized the book. In the 2010s, the book found a new audience among online younger neo-Nazi's due to the book's republication by the neo-fascist form Iron March. In addition to its promotion of neo-Naziism, it lianizes serial killers, mass murderers and Charles Manson. Siege advocates neo-Nazi lone wolf terrorism. So let's let me go off of that. Okay. So the base, I'll do that interview. They asked me all kinds of stuff. I answered best I can. Again, tennis, right? I don't know what they're throwing at me. I'm just going to be ready. Right? And then he tells me, I can tell who the leader is on there because it's the deeper voice, but it was Rinaldo Nazara. After they've explained to me what acceleration it is, what the base believes. Siege culture. They gave me a 24-hour rest period. And they said, because now I know what they're about. I can decide whether I really want to be a part of it. And they can talk about whether they want me to be a part of it. Got it in true to the word. 24 hours later on the Saturday, I got hit, ping, something to the effect of, we'd like to have you in the organization. And I said, I'd be honored. So they tell me, they go, where are you at? I said East Tennessee. And they said, with the closest sales,
C-E-L-L, 'cause I know I got a country accident. C-E-L-L, the closest sale to me was in North Georgia, and then I was contacted by the sale leader, but to parlay off of what that said, terrorism, siege. He said, forget all this grandstanding, go more terrorism, lone wolf attacks. So a lot of people don't know this. Al Qaeda translated to English is the base. Al Qaeda's MO was three to five mountain sales, all over the world training for D-Day, waiting for the phone call. The base is MO, three to five man sales, all over the world training for what they call the bugaloo. If they're still calling it that. I've been retired for five years. So, and when you met them, are these guys, are they aggressive like males? What kind of energy did you feel overall when you met these guys? It depends, but it wasn't like back in the hammer skin, like white supremacy, heavy metal, mosh pit, crowd. But I don't wanna get too much on a tangent, but I will say this, when I'm instructing, number one, we don't like to say the names of the mass shooters. We don't wanna give them any credit. - Ain't it? - I'll name every victim from Caliban. - Yeah. - I'll name every victim from Charleston. Every victim from Buffalo don't wanna say the kid's name, or the shooter's name, right? But sometimes when I'm teaching undercover, I have to because we're talking about a certain thing, but what I'll say to people, 'cause it sounds like you were like, hey, we're these like Jack dudes or whatever, all shapes and sizes. But what I tell people is I said, don't underestimate. If I showed you a picture of the kids from Caliban before Caliban happened, what would you say? If I showed you a picture of the kid from the Aurora Theater shooting, orange and yellowish hair, what would you say before that happened? Charleston, bowl haircut, skinny kid, but they still killed a lot of people. So don't underestimate, 'cause dad is dead. - Amen. - We had a shooting here in Nashville. - Yeah. - My buddy's with the guy that had the pistol, the two shooters, I met him through some other trainings and I'd just seen him like, within a month of that shooting. And you know, just don't underestimate, you know? So I meet him and when they call me, - And would you wear to meet him? Do you have to, I mean, how do you even pick out an outfit? - I don't know. Like, maybe like some hiking type pants, you know? I didn't show up all bikerish, but I go to meet him and they tell me, they instruct me. You come to Rome, Georgia, I want you to park here. I want you to take a picture of the statue downtown and then I want you to send it to me and they're watching. I don't know how many, 'cause at that point, we knew we were going to meet somebody, they'd called themselves TMB. I didn't know these bringing a guy named pestilence with him. I didn't know. We just, they were trying to cover me and I met the case team that I, even though we talked on the phone, I'd never met him before. So I drive down to Rome, Georgia, because now I'm being, - This is crazy. - I know, 'cause now I'm being invited to meet him for a face-to-face vet. I like the vetting in real life, 'cause I passed the other one, I passed the emails, I passed the interview panel, now I got to pass a face-to-face meeting. And when I met the case team, again, we don't know really who we're meeting or where we're going. We got an inkling, I think, but I know we didn't know everybody in the group. We did not at all. And the weather was bad. So it's like, I don't know, can you get any kind of aerial surveillance? Not when it's raining and stuff like that. - And it's all a light of cross in the rain, too, so you're not really going to see it. - Well, the acceleration is, don't do the cross. - Got it, my bad. - Lightings, the KKK does. - Got it. - So these guys are hiding. They're all wearing fleck-torn camo because the fleck-torn pattern is German. They're neo-Nazi, so they wear nothing but the German pattern. That does not mean if you have fleck-torn that you're white supremacists. It just means that that's what they wear. So I pull up, me, the case team, and they're like, hey, I want to slap a GPS tracker on my truck just in case. And I'm like, yeah, so I see a squad. - Your squad says that. - Yeah, yeah, it's my team, my cover team. And 'cause, let me explain it this way, I was assigned to Knoxville. So I'm an FBI agent in Knoxville, but because the targets lived in Georgia, well now you've got Atlanta Field Office and the ROMRA, which is the satellite office out of. So that's who's gonna be working those targets, right? So I go down there to meet that cover team or case team. And we talk about some stuff. I'll make some phone calls. And I see them kind of go under the back driver's side quarter panel. So I don't know where they put it, but I know it's somewhere up in there. I pull up, I can't find a parking spot. I'm going back and forth on wire. Hey, man, I'm here, look, I found a spot, but it's behind a coffee shop. I mean, I think I was in a white Ford or something. I remember what truck I was driving on that trip, but give them the description of the truck and then they go, I'll see, and I see them come walking. So what comes walking up is about a 21 year old and soon to be 21 and a 19 year old kid. TMB is Luke Lane. He's about six to maybe 220, 225, but kind of frumpy. And then pestilence is Jacob. And he is kind of more not golf, but more like black metal. but he's got B.D.U.s blast into his eight inch tactical boots and then a tank top of some black metal band, you know, shaved around the sides. - Probably Gwar, one of those, instant pussy, one of those ones. - No, I went to, no, I'm talking like, we're gonna talk like probably like, hellwitch, sabote, satanic, good ritual, those kind of bands, you know. - Oh yeah. - That kind of shit. - Yeah, and all it is, if you've ever been to a concert like that, it's like, it's just constant. One, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one Like am I missing anything like that would have a lot in like I'll self check. I may even have somebody checking me for sure I'm a I may clean my truck, but I may hate search my truck. Is there anything on here that would let you know Yeah, search my truck. Yeah, I mean, what if you just got dry cleaning and then you're for sure in your tags in there You know, oh yeah or or prescription medicine and it's in your real name, you know, so they're walking up there You guys are behind the coffee shop. Yep, and he comes up and he says you know, I'm like, hey, I came in as white warrior I'm like, hey, I'm I'm white warrior. He's like I'm TNB. It's personal. So I mean cool little niceties And then I need you to put your phone in airplane mode. I said, okay, put on airplane mode and he pulls out this thing It looks like the Geiger counter man. I had like a triangle card on it. It was big all kinds of lights and stuff on it I'm like, what the heck is that? Hmm. So he wants me and nothing. I'm cool. He starts wanting inside the truck And I'm like, all right as he's walking down the side of the truck that thing starts going nuts It's getting louder and louder and lights are going off on it And I'm like, oh no, it's picking up the GPS tracker. And he's walking. He gets right to the back fender And I'm like, I've already eased my right leg back. I'm starting to get in that stance because I'm like it's getting ready to go I'm because you know, it's what's gonna happen right now. Yeah, I don't know if they're armed or not. I'm gonna assume they are And right when it was going, it's going nuts pestilence says you think it could be the power lines because where we were it was a steep hill in the power lines, right? So he walks over and that thing goes nuts. What I found out is that thing picks up. It's a $500 piece of equipment in 2019 $500 piece of equipment that picks up everything every airwave there is Wi-Fi blue tooth RF whatever it'll color it'll color code and different sounds. Yeah, somebody whisper in line. You know cellular. Yeah, whatever. Yeah So I lived to fight another day. He said he said hey follow us to another place So at that point, I'm calling the case team and I'm like you need to shut the tracker off I'm like you need to shut it off and they're like well, we're not sure if we can shut it off remotely and I'm like Well, you need to try and they're like well, if we shut it off, we don't know if we can get it back on I said what I'm telling you is whatever he's got it all is finding it and if you don't shut it off It's gonna be a quick undercover and it should be your choice Well, I mean they were they were saying technically like they were saying can you cut it off from a remote and if you did Could we get it back on and I'm getting to the concern you don't want to lose me, but I'm like hey So luckily they got it off and I pulled into the parking lot of an abandoned concrete plant I'm like pull in and I'm like looking up to the Lord. I'm like that's funny How many people have I seen dying a movie at an empty a concrete plan? But they wanted me and it didn't go they wanted the truck and it didn't go off and I'm like cool So then I go and that's when I start meeting everybody and then as the months went on you would go and train We don't really play ball together anything or would like it. Would you do any socially scursions field trips or anything like that all shooting all training really yeah because Because Luke's dad had a hundred acre property in Rome Georgia got it and that's where we did a lot of our training That sell in the Maryland Maryland sale would come down and train and then at one point we started finding all kinds of things like You talked about sacrifices, which gives me into it. So I'll speed up for that during during the case You start identifying more and more people and those people are some of them are outside of the United States So our world working partners are opening cases on them some of them are in all kinds of states in the US But as I explained before that means that maybe Seattle is FBI's open in the case on the person to send their Air or maybe Detroit's open in cases Georgia's open in multiple cases Alabama's open in case it just goes Because at any given time there is there's a good 50 something people in the base But the bass was more like an umbrella.
group because every member that I knew that was in the base, they were also a part of another white supremacy group, whether it be Adam Woffiner, Green Brigade or, or man, was it son-in? I can't remember the name of it right now, but so you were a member of another group as well. But we did training and that first weekend, and remember, I'm a firearms instructor certified at the FBI. I was the lead tactical instructor for my division, and a 19-year-old kid led carbine, and he led shooting in tactics. He led the training, and it was good. It wasn't bad. And I'm thinking, man, how did you learn? Did you, I mean, you didn't run the military. You're too young to be getting out, to learn this. He said, no, I think it was mainly gaming, and then his dad took him to a range, but he worked on it, you know, and I was glad that they were safe with their weapons, because I didn't know what their shooting was. I was standing back when we started. I was glad that they were good and safe, but I was also scared, because if they were planning on doing something bad, they were pretty good. Oh, the savvy spooked, man. So one of the big things, like with undercover, you go in there, you've got enough to go in. It's all been approved. We've got the reporting, and people are predicated, so we're going in, but do you have enough to charge them? Well, in instances like this, you've been spewing a lot of hate online. You've been saying a lot of crazy stuff, but is what you're doing just first amendment protected, or are you actually planning on doing something bad? So sometimes we go in, and you might just be in there for six months trying to figure out if they're doing, I've been in cases for five, six months, and I come back to the team and go, they're not doing anything illegal, man. It's all first amendment protected, and we're just spinning our wheels at this point. And when did that turn for the base? When did that kind of? So I got, we were already talking about a bunch of stuff, and I was starting to get the DM conversations going on where it's more private, direct messaging for those that don't know. And what is your wife thinking when you get home on the weekends and you got like a lot more white laundry or whatever. No dark stuff. Or I come home smelling like diesel fuel from the client. They call it client cologne because you can't stand that crossup without the diesel fuel pouring all over you. Unless somebody was holding an umbrella every I guess. Yeah. But okay, so take us back in. So at one point, there's somebody that gets doxed. And for those that don't know what doxing is basically outing you. Right. And all our left is very, very good at it. They're really good at doxing you, showing up the protest at your kids school, at your business, at your home, your parents, whatever. And the right, far right from what I experience, can't stand that because they feel like they're losing their life and their identity. That's why they're huge on anonymity. So all these pictures you see, if you pull up the base stuff where the BBC and the Guardian was blasting all this stuff, I mean, I'm there. But we're wearing balaclavas. That one right. I'll show you one. It was me. Yeah, that's me right there. I'm on the far right. You're in that group photo. Yeah. And who took the pictures? Did you guys go to a play? No, no, no, just one of the guys that didn't suit up because you're always trying to recruit. How was recruiting going overall? Did you feel like? I mean, abs and flows. You get people coming in and then you vet them and then some people might drop. Some people might get docks. So, uh, so any women in it? No, no, um, which was something I kind of. There was a lot of, there was a lot of the guys that did not have partners. Oh, you'd have more men in it if you had more women in it. Yeah, but they don't have partners. So think about this. We were talking early about radicalization online. Picture for these cases, I'm just saying it's a young white guy. Young white man. He was probably an outcast. He's most definitely been bullied. Uh, can't get a date. And they're just hating. So then you go on in these groups at night. And this works on the other side too. Far left, black separatist, radical g hot, kind of same thing. You're looking for somebody that's, um, uh, like a minded individual. Yeah. And that's how they start getting you. Um, do you think that the media ostracizes white people? Do you feel like it does it boy? I'm not answering that. Is that a tougher question? No, that's probably give you my answer. There you go. No, it depends. I don't, look, you don't have to, I was just thinking about it like, you know, I feel like there's a lot of like, I don't know. It's a tough one. It's a tough question. I mean, I'm white. So what am I supposed to say? I mean, at my privilege, am I not privileged? Did I get stuff for free or did I have to bust my ass to get it? So I don't, I just try not to answer that. Yeah. I mean, I know personally what I've had to do to be where I'm at. Yeah. That's a good point, man. Somebody else might not believe that. Yeah. And send me out of the beholder no matter what I say. I can talk to them. I'm blue in the face. If you don't believe me, then that's it. Yeah. We'll think about it another time. Good by picture. You're in there. You're lonely and you're looking first. Do you want to belong? You want to belong? It's just human nature to want to belong. Yeah. And I want to feel a part of something to feel like. Brotherhood. Same thing. Same thing with gangs. Same things with Colts. Biker clubs. It's my brotherhood. Your brother. You know, you're now you're one of us. Oh, dude. It was not like when you were growing up just having your friend. It's like going to the gym with a friend to go lift with anything that gives you some connection. Yeah. But comes a huge part of your life. Yeah. So you get that. And I said, I'm glad you said that because another way to describe what I was describing is isolation. Yeah. Oh, it's this. And if you're a believer when you get isolated, let's look at the jungle, Africa. If you're a zebra that gets isolated, you're a lot easier to pick off. Yeah. You know what I mean? Just say. Undeniably. Yeah. Isolation is for the devil, man. Yeah. I believe that. Yeah. You know, it's like even though like there's things even in my own life, it's like, man, I don't want to go. I don't want to go. I don't want to do that. That is that is not the best part to me talking or communicating to me. Yeah. I'm with you on that. Anyway, carry on. So this guy a guy gets docs. He's a member in South Africa. And he gets docs. And then at that point, one of the members in the base is like, how many of our brothers do we have to watch fall before we do something? And he called for operational operation crystal knot, which wasn't actual operation in World War II. Essentially, what they did is if you were not white, you were Jewish, you know, antifascist, whatever, they would go down and smash your windows or your business, slice the tires on your car or set stuff on fire. So that's what he was calling for. And some members did do it. They went out and tagged some synagogues with some, you know, hate symbols. I'm trying to remember if anybody sent anything on fire or not. I remember being called for or slash and tires. But so now we're starting to get a little bit more people are actually doing overt acts and further and sub hate. Even though even though it's just painting. And I mean, but you know, like I've had some people say, hey man, I mean, they just painted a synagogue, you know, I mean, to be looking at this many years for hate crime or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, but what if you were one of those Jewish people that went to that synagogue. And now every time you go there, you're scared to death because you've seen active shooter. You've seen mass shooter events, yeah, tree alive. Yeah. And in Pittsburgh, you know, and I know a lot of those people now because I've helped out with eradicate hate. And eradicate hates based out of Pittsburgh. And I've actually met and I'm friends with family members of the people that were murdered that tree alive. Yeah, my friend Michael the other day was talking about the shooting that had happened in Australia. New Zealand. No, I think it was in Bondi. Okay, I was thinking of the New Zealand Christ church. No, I think it was in Bondi Beach. Oh, there we go. Yeah, this was in December. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's sad to say that these shootings happen more and more often. And I just they start blending in my head. Which shootings do you mean this overall? I mean, just like active shooter events. Yeah. Yeah. I do remember that that was the seek temple or something. I shot up. You feel like people. Um, I don't know, evils always going to be around. Yeah. Well, you know, a lot of you think a lot of this of new age stuff, like say a lot of like if there's anti-Semitic of his US specific hate. Do you think a lot of that is coming from like people who have or do you know actually if a lot of it's coming from like people who have Nazi ideology from like like Hitler Nazi ideology or is it people that are having reactions to some Israel's tactics and like their government's attack. It's going to be both because if you're pro if I got to figure out I want to word it right. Because I only but I say you're saying all pro Palestine people are no. But if you're on that that extreme side, this pro Palestine over Israel. Well, a lot of this people aren't white. So you couldn't be identifying with Hitler because Hitler is more of the white supremacy, but it's definitely anti-Semitic. Wait, wait, hold on a second. They're hating the Jews too. Do you think that's an extremist view that people are pro Palestine? No. Yeah. No, not at all. But if you are going to go again, if you're going to go to extreme or you're going to be happy that people are being slaughtered and murdered and raped and tortured. You know, when you're anti-Semitic, then you're more probably more that extremism side got it. But you were asking me if it was like is it Hitler driven or is it pro Palestine or anti Israel driven? Yeah, anti Israel government driven like yeah, so just to be super clear. Yeah, man, I think it's just scary like I have Jewish friends that have been like who have spoken out about like just like being in fear and like they're like going to class. You know, and I'm like, I don't, I mean Hitler.
weren't even solid white. I think he, I mean, you can pull it out. I think he was determined that he had some Jewish in his blood. And then there's probably other ethnicities who are scared of our relationship with Israel and what could happen to them in the future. I get scared sometimes. I think with the surveillance state now, I feel like everybody's getting scared. Oh my goodness. I know. And now the big, the big, I think the fresh topic right now on surveillance is those flock cameras. Yeah. It's like a lot of my black friends are starting to, I'm starting to fuck them up. Yeah. I'm not hating on that. I'm not saying to do it. I'm just saying that the block versus fly. That's where I have to see a flock camera on a cul-de-sac. One cul-de-sac. Why do you need a flock camera? Are you reading plates? What's going on? Or does it pick up phone stuff? And it's the third part. Here's my concern. Third party company. It's not law enforcement. I agree. What are we doing? So what oversight do you have? Do you have policy stopping? I mean, we've got a constitution. That is our law. That's our Bible. Which it goes back to, you know, you're talking about the board and stuff. Listen, if I'm a law enforcement officer, number one, I'm a peace officer. Most of the cars used to say to protect and serve. That's your job. You're a shepherd. You should be. You protect and the sheep from the wolves. That's, I mean, I'm not trying to be all, you know, Jack Nicholson on the wall and be, uh, now, the whole year than now, just my job is to enforce the law. So I used to tell people, I'm like, well, don't hate me because I'm enforcing law. There's been so many people I've arrested or sat down at a table with after they've been arrested. And I'll say, man, you know, I'm not saying I disagree with what you did. I'm not saying I think you're a bad person. I'm saying you're an adult and you made the choice to break the law and you got caught. So here we are. I'm not hating. Do you ever get so deep entangled during like a, um, during, um, like a sting or during an operation or during an undercover where at the end, you were like, damn, this is going to be a long day when this bust happens. Yeah. Cause it's going to bother you. Yeah. Sorry. And I, and I'm kind of taking us off off a base. I'm, I'm kind of taking to say off a base a little bit. So let's get back. Um, so there was the docks and going on. Yep. So they did some people tax and stuff. And also during that time, we had a base member who went out in Canada. He was Canadian and he went and put flyers up to try to recruit. And then somebody answered the recruitment. They had to go through the emails like I did. They had to go through a, uh, interview panel like I did, uh, on audio, on wire. And then they went and had the face to face meat. So this guy that got recruited one of our members who ended up being called Punish snake. His name is Pat Matthews. Punish snake. Yeah. Pat Matthews, uh, he changed his name several times, but he was, I think it's the Canadian version of our national guard kind of, but he was being trained, he was a military. He's being trained. Um, and he's the guy. So we get a new member coming in. Hey, welcome. New member blah, blah, blah from Canada. Thank you. His name was Mark or something. Uh, and he's in the, he's in the main chat group for about a week, maybe two weeks. I don't think it definitely don't think it was more than two weeks. And are you in the chat group every day kind of? Yeah. I'd imagine if I wasn't. So I worked my job as an FBI agent. I go home. I might have dinner with my family. And then I'm back out on the porch, you know, answering stuff or I'm checking in during the day. Right. But they also knew I was a, what's up, fellas. Everybody's still racist. Yeah. Like you're gonna commit some hate crimes. But, uh, it's so, so this Canadian, this, he meets this guy. This guy gets into the group and after about a week or so, he, he comes out. And it turns out that it was a journalist for a, uh, paper. No, no, it's, he's a, uh, I guess these days, but that's probably what the people are thinking. He, he was a journalist for a newspaper up there. He went and met Pat on his own. And after about a week or two, they were like, Hey, this is too deep. You pull the chalks right up, right? So this article comes out. And it's basically doxing Pat. So Pat, they come, the RM's, uh, a royal Canadian, amount of police, a RCMP comes to his house, Texas guns. He's booted from the military thing. His parents now hate him. I think he lost his job. And all of a sudden, he disappears. Wow. His truck is found at the border, the border of Canada and the United States. So we're pretty sure he's here, but we don't know where. Right. Eventually, we find him and he ended up being down at my cell. He was, he was renting out one of the four stalls under the barn, under the, the residents on that hunter-decker property. So I got to go sleeping there. Yeah. So I got to go spend a lot of time down there training. And it just got crazier and crazier, man. It was like, and what kind of stuff are they saying? Or like, like how? Like everything's preparing for the preparing for the bugle. Building your kid. I mean, a lot of these kids didn't even have, I said kids. I mean, I, I was 48. I lied and said I was 44 at the time. Um, because literally, that was like one other 40 something and I think Nazara was 40 something. So the leader was 40 something. There was one other day that was in his 40s. There might have been two 30 somethings and everything else was 20s and teens. Wow. Um, a lot of these, uh, these kids, they didn't have a job. They didn't have a car. They had to borrow a car to come to the training, but they were wearing crab precision platecares. Same thing, FBI SWAT team wears. Got it. They were, they're building their kid up. They're pistols. They're, they're, uh, they're semi-automatic rifles. They're cars, they're AKs and, uh, and we're coming out and training, man, moving drills. And, you know, I may not be the best, but still, I mean, I was looking at a lot of them going, holy crap, man, if they wanted to take on some, if they wanted to do something, they're probably going to get the drop on a lot of people, right? You know, that's scary, dude. It's so, it's fascinating to think that that goes on. So once we found Pat, um, and we had him lock down. So we're like, okay, we feel like we're in control of the situation because we were finding out more and more stuff, uh, are they plotting something or they're not? There was inklings of things being whispered and said, and we're, as a case team and undercover all the case teams, I mean, at one point we had a hundred people on a call once a month. That's how many case teams there were in the United States working this stuff. Um, and it was just kind of like, did they mean that? Did they not mean that you're trying to find out? Are you going to do something bad? Or are you not? Yeah. Are you just talking trash? First of them and protected. And then you go, you're waiting for the D day and then it's purge, you know? Um, so we get this all started because you asked about the sacrifice thing. So a lot of these guys believed in, uh, the North, North, North, North pantheon. So they were claiming pagan, but they're white supremacists. They're not tree pagans. Got it. They're white supremacists. And we've already had a couple of blots, B L O T, that is the ceremony for the worship ceremony. Um, did you ever go to those? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I've already been well, I mean, I had to participate. I had to mirror. So I would pray to a God. There was some that we had that had some people leading it that was, uh, really, uh, there were some of them were actually priest in the Asadru family. Just doing what side jobs or whatever. No, no, no, I'm just me and they've, they've obtained the rank to basically be a preacher. They are, they're a priest and they can run a block. Um, so I attended some and it might be in the middle of the summer and you go down there and you paint runes on your chest and who do the whole ceremony and they'd be like, uh, take like a piece of wood and carve, carve, uh, some runes in it, which are pagan. Are you an ES? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then it would be, uh, then, but then there would be like swastikas and white supremacy stuff on there too. And then you would, you would, you would, you would cut yourself and bleed on the wood and then we set the wood on fire and pray to our gods until the wood stopped burning. So I was getting in closer. Yeah. And then, and then it was just going so fast, uh, the, uh, I'll tell you, uh, you ever wake up believing it? No. No, not this. No. I mean, some of these cats were cats. Some of these guys were saying that Hitler's still alive and all their words. And he's hanging out with 15 foot giant white dudes with red bears and they're just waiting to come back. And I'm like, for what? Yeah, that's crazy. I'm going to come on back. If you're saying we need to fight right now, what are they? What's Hitler? What are they milling around? Yeah. Come on. You know, let's just waiting for NIL money or whatever. Yeah. Exactly. I'm switching teams. Somebody give them a deal probably. Um, but so we get to this point and it's Halloween of 2019. And we're going to have a basically what people refer to as a hate camp. We're going to be there training and training. I did some hand-to-hand combat training there. We'd already started doing fire arms, but that that that Halloween night was a Thursday night and, uh, in 2019. So we have a few drinks. I go back to my, uh, I go back to my truck. I'm actually charging my phone up because the battery is dying. You know, it is when you go from like sleet ice freezing cold and you hop in that warm vehicle and you kind of just defrost and then you nod off a little bit. I nodded off a little bit. Um, and I wake up to the pounding on my door because I was already pale horse by this time. Um, I switched my code name. Um, and they were like, pale horse, pale horse wake up, wake up. I'm like, when was going on? They're like, you got to see this. You're not going to believe it. I come out and they go, Hey, remember us talking about sacrificing, uh, a goat. And I'm like vaguely and they're like, we got one. I'm like, Oh, they went. I mean, not far down the road. Yeah. To a guy who had three and turns out that he came out because he heard them. They were armed. They had their fleck torn camo on with the ball of clubs over their face. I mean, it's a wonder. Nobody can get shot right there, but they still to go or a ram. I don't know the, I mean, I've asked people the difference. It was big. It had horns. I don't know if it was a good or a ram, They are walking.
up and they're like had it in the back of the truck. And one of the members who went by Dema. Dema says, "Man, this goat's shitting all over the truck." And I said, "Well, hell, I would be, too, "if a bunch of Neanderthals would flex, "torn in Bala Club, it was just jerking me out "of the backyard at gunpoint." I'm like, "Bagount," you know? And then Eisen was gonna be running the blot on this one. And I see him over there and he's petting the goat. And he's like, "It looks like he's showing it love and stuff." And I walked up and I said, "Hey, man, "is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat?" And he says, "Hey, Bill Hors, don't let hear the goat." - Eisen was a guy's name? - Yeah, that was his coat name. His real name was William Billbro. - Oh. - And it was like, his eyes and sounds like a Jewish name. It seems like a weird name to him. - I think it was actually a room. I can't remember what Eisen stands for. But anyway. - Eisen is German and ask Canazi you a surname meaning iron. - There you go. - Eisen. - Okay, go on, sorry. - So I didn't know that. So I should have looked that up. I spent seven months with the guy. (laughing) - Oh shit. - And I'd be like, "Oh, iron, I got it." So he says, "Hey, don't let the goat hear you say that." And I'm like, "Okay." And he's like, "This goat, we're showing this goat love. "We're gonna sacrifice it to start the wild hunt "and it's going to Vahal. "It's gonna be with Odin tonight. "This is a good thing for the goat." No negative energy basically. And don't let the other people hear you with negative energy. I said, "Got it? "Push that beach ball down? "Never think of it again." Underwater. It's gonna push it down. So I walk over to, oh, let me say this. The Wild Hunt in Norse mythology is essentially Odin and other gods going out in the middle of the night and laying the smack down to all their enemies. But in the version of the White Supremacy, he's saying that this sacrifice is gonna start the Wild Hunt for us to cleanse the world of darkness. So if you're anti-fash and you are non-white, when Buggaloo happens, they were saying is, if you were not fascist, you were automatically anti-fash and the penalty's death. I mean, these days we talk about shooting their own dads. Like, I'd have to kill my dad if he doesn't. If he doesn't, switch to be fascist, I'm gonna have to kill my dad. And then one, I'd cry myself to sleep if I did. And another would be like, well, I could never kill my parents so you guys are way ahead of me. So you're hearing all this crazy stuff and you're hearing Pat down under the barn saying, I'm a ghost, my life is over. I don't exist anymore. 'Cause that's the guy that got Docs. Docs out of Canada. And so, can't y'all bust the group at this point or no? We could, but there's, that's the, I'm gonna tell you, in my opinion, as a case agent, on long-term cases and as an undercover, that's the hardest decision to decide when, do we have enough or this new guy just came in? One more buy and we can get, you know, it's tough. 'Cause at what point are you just like playing house or whatever it almost seems like, or white house? Right, but what we charge them with, other than assisting, getting an undocumented alien in. Right now, now what charges you're gonna come up with 'cause there's no federal domestic terrorism charge. Okay. There are federal international terrorism charges, but there's not for domestic terrorism. Got it. So, I'm hearing all this crazy stuff. Like, I mean, we can form, everybody's been Docs. We can have like a staging location or a clubhouse somewhere where it's all us and we're all ghost and we just go out and murder. I mean, it's talking about laying out like a homeless person, learning the pattern of the lefty journalist and then just popping them in the back of the head with a 38 one day and just walk off. That's guerrilla, that kind of small hit kind of thing. So, we've got them and then we get to that Halloween weekend. So they tell me they got to go and I go to my listening device and I'm like, hey, talking to the case and I'm like, if you can hear me, I'm pretty sure we're gonna go down here and slaughter this animal. I'm racking my brain trying to think if there's anything. I'm definitely not seeing anything federal in my head and I basically just tossed it to them. Do you want me to shut this thing down or do you want me to just drive off that come up with a ruse and kind of drive off? I said, if you want me to, you need to let me know and I waited and I stared at my divide and I waited and I waited, waited for my phone ringing, I waited, waited nothing and I went, okay. I got something heading down in the woods. So we head down, we carry the goat down. It's probably about 12 of us there and. - Is the goat sleeping or it's loud? - No, no, we're walking it down by, you know. So we get down there and it's doing goat shit. - Yeah, it's doing goat shit. So we get down there to what was referred to as a holy spot. The torches are lit. Eisen leads the block, talks about, hey, we're gonna sacrifice this goat to open, it's gonna go be with the elves and everything. - And is it pretty organized? Or is the guy like reading notes off of his phone? - No, he wasn't the best. Now, the other guy I told you about when we were in the summer, I think he was legit, a sawtrue. - Got it. - Pracing, I mean, it was, it was, it was led very well. This one was a little choppy, you know. - Yeah, that's crazy. - Yeah, but. - God dang. - But they're believing, they're believing here, right? So then, then he has like a. - It's bigger than a machete, but it's not quite a sword. From what I remember. We're all around the goat. He's already given the whole speech about the wild hunt and we're gonna start killing all, anti-fashion and non-whites. Because if everybody's white, that'll definitely save. That'll solve the problem. No, no, I won't, you know, he's still gonna be fighting. - Yeah. - This is gonna be cheating. Yeah, what are we talking about here? But so I ended up, we're all in a circle around the goat and somehow I ended up at the back legs. And he's already given the speech and now he's got this blade and he's like, he's bringing it back with his hands and he's coming down, practice swing, practice swing. Second of breath, you can hear somebody say, just do it, you know? And he comes down and I'm holding the back of that goat. He comes down with everything he's got and all I heard was thunk, I don't think it broke a single hair. I don't know if the blade was dull or the back strap of the goat was so strong. And for that second, I was like, and that split second, my mind, I'm like, oh, this is gonna be bad. Just gonna get bloody, 'cause I'm holding it. And then you hear, it may take two swings. Do it again, you hear all this yelling? And then somebody says, is anybody got a gun? I think it was pestilence, is anybody have a pistol? And the rule was, as we weren't supposed to bring any weapons down there, but the one guy, zoomed that, says, I got mine, I mean me and Luke TMB, both were looking at going, this is like the least qualified guy to be holding a weapon. This dude's been up for like two days straight on Adderall. He worked third shift in Austin, Texas and drove straight to Rome, Georgia. And I'm like, and not coordinated. I mean, guns, I'm, I was like, oh my goodness, man, you're the last person down there. - Who the heck did he do? - He has the pistol over, Luke takes it from him. - This is like a sassant's creed. - Oh yeah, yeah. So he takes the weapon, hands it to Eisen. Eisen chambers around kind of points towards the goat and then turns completely away to pull the trigger. And I just wanna let the instructor in me. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. He's like, what? And I go, man, look at what you're shooting at. Bro, we're all in a circle on our knees, man. He's like, oh, okay. I know, man. - I feel like this is a Larry David scale dude. - I know. I mean, part of you in the comical, comical side, you're like, oh, let him go ahead and shoot. I'm over here, you know, he's in that way. I see he takes out, you know, but yeah. So he puts one right in his head and then it goes down and it twitches for a while. And I coax him to, I said, man, why don't you go and put another round in it? 'Cause it was a debate of, is it after death, twitches or is it still alive? I said, just go and put it in. I said, for the sake of the goat, 'cause you wanted to show up happy, right? It's going, I mean, it's a good thing. - Yeah. - I'm using his words against him. - I figured, let it get that quick. - Yeah, I mean, you know, I thought, you know, so he did it and then you get here's what I say. And now it's definitely dead. Oh, are we done? No. Now they slice the throat of the goat, fill up a cup full of blood. - No. - Yeah, and we're all in a circle. - And is it warm out of cold out? - It is cold, it's cold, it's cold, yeah, it's cold. 'Cause whatever happened at Halloween in 2019, it had been like 60s or 70s. And that day a cold front came, it dropped to like 10. So we're down there and he, they slice it, they fill the cup up with blood. Everybody's still in the circle. Except me, I'm holding the flashlight because I hasn't decided to bring acid to help with the spiritual journey. - LSD? - Yeah, yeah. - Had a sheet, had a sheet. - Now I'll took a hit or what? - No, I didn't. And that was funny 'cause they were like, one of the guys is like, hey, I'm a, I'm a, how do you word it? I'm a very experienced, highly experienced psychedelic or something I'm a professional psychedelic 'cause we think you'd really like this pill, or as I said, let me tell you something. You have no idea what's in my brain. You have no idea what I've done on this planet in my lifetime. I don't do that stuff. If somebody slips one on me and I go on a bad trip, every single one of you are going with me. - Damn. - You know, that's the only way I got to dig. - Let's get called, yes, please, I'm gonna use that. And then one guy was like, he was like, yeah, don't do it. Don't put nothing in, pill horses drink. But I went around and I was shining. He would tear a tab, put it under your tongue, chase it with the blood. Now you're signifying the sacrifice. We're closing the deal here. - Yeah, now you're a sick app. - Yeah, so now it gets to me. And I'm one of the last ones. Well, by the time it gets to me, the if I look down and it is clotted, it is chunky. And I'm looking at it going, man, I really don't want to drink this man. You know, I'm like, (laughs) but I think pestilence, or I don't know if he said it, or I thought of it, but I just stuck two fingers deep into the blood, pulled out my fingers and sucked the blood off my fingers. - I am. - And luckily, I'd carry the beer down there and not chase it with that. - What kind of beer was it? - That night it might have been Bud Light. Before the controversy. - Yeah. Oh, I think you know. - No, I think it was a Bud Light. But I, if it wasn't a Bud Light, it was a England vlogger. - Ooh, which is what I like. - Yeah, yeah.
- That's nice. - Damn, I'm brothers, y'all down there eating blood and frickin' doin' L.S. Day. I mean, what in the fuck is going on there? - I know, right. So we're supposed to get up the next day and train. No, the training was shot. - What? - 'Cause only like two or three people didn't do acid. And everybody else was up all night staring at a fire. - I don't even know what y'all are training for. This feels like the New York Jets kind of dude. I'm like, what the fuck is going on there? - So the second, we're not gonna go hand the weapons and be running across fields. 'Cause they'd been up all night and they were hot. And I'm like, great, you just shot an entire day of training, you know? But I went to go get biscuits for everybody. I went to the bow jangles. - Ooh, they're good. - I just had one the other day actually. - Apparently in Rome, Georgia, bow jangles is where it's at because cars would be backed all the way down the main street, directly across the street from bow jangles with McDonald's. There were no cars in it. But I went and I picked up about 30 back in the egg and cheese biscuits. So I'm coming back and all I can smell is that butter, that bacon that cheese and the eggs, that biscuit. - What? - I go to get out of my truck, punish snakes is, pale horse, you gotta try this goat, it is good. He's been holding that raw goat over a fire. It was not prepared at all. I've had some gamey stuff in my life. That was the gameiest tasting meat I ever put in my dagging mouth. - Yeah. - And as soon as I started biting it after smelling the butter and as soon as I bit into it, man, I was like, oh, I was like, oh, that's not too bad. As soon as he turned his head, I tossed it to the farm dogs. I was like, oh. Yeah, dude, I've had bad meat on some LSD and that's, you never forget that, you never forget that. - Yeah, I mean, I've just cooked, I've eaten undercooked duck on LSD and I never forget that shit. I still, sometimes I'll still floss my teeth years later, even just to get the, just, I feel like some of it's still in there. - So after the sacrifice, the chop the head of the goat off and we're carrying around. - What the hell is going on there? - We took a picture 'cause the recruitment process was this, whatever video, whatever new recruitment video we're doing has to be better than the last one. Every time the base got infiltrated by either a journalist or whatever, and their offset got better and better. How did that happen? How did we get infiltrated? How do we stop from happening again? So, Saturday night comes. Saturday comes now, we can start training again. So we're out there shooting and running and stuff and now it's warming back up and we go down Saturday night to the holy spot and build a bonfire. We burn American flags, there it is. Now, here's the thing. He nicknamed that goat Gar. His name is William Garfield Billbro. His grandfather's name is Garfield. So he named the goat Gar. So everybody talked about Gar after that. I am back row, two left from the flag. You can see my neck. - There you go. - Yeah, that's me right there. Showing the neck. - The neck. Well, yeah, the ball of clobber didn't go all the way down. - Dang. - Somebody should have called that and been like, "Pell horse, your neck's chilling." - You bought that baby clobber, would you? - I didn't know, they give it to you. That's part of your initiation. When you made it in, they gave me the ball of clobber and the three runes. - That's smaller clobber than you, brother. - Yeah, I know. - That's a little small for you. - I got a horse head. - Oh yeah. - So then we go down and we burn American flags and we burn holy bobbles. And I remember coming back after that weekend and I remember just feeling kind of dirty. I mean, maybe that's 'cause I'd been up for four days or whatever, I don't know, the rain and all and all. But just the act and just the feeling of, I was like, man, I just feel weird. - Yeah, you're spirit. - Yeah, because I'm like, yeah, that's it. Because I'm like, man, I come back to the office and I go, I've been working undercover since 1996. All of a sudden I started street level narcotics. I said, I have never had to burn American flags. I've never had to burn holy bobbles. And I definitely wouldn't with a group of people that went and still would go sacrificed and we drank as blood at a ritual, you know? Because even though they're saying pagan, some of those dudes are praying to Satan. Some of those dudes are playing to like order of nine angles where it's a lot more satanic. And yeah, it's, but that weekend, I guess I had passed the benchmark of trust because that Saturday night, after everybody's going to bed, it's me, pestilence, and TMB. And I kind of ask them a question. I go, you know, a while back, of course I know what I'm asking about 'cause we're trying to figure out what it is, but I was recording that I'd gotten at the case teams and myself. We were trying to figure out what they meant. And I kind of circled back on that and I said, well, what were we talking about there? And they kind of whisper and I hear pestilence say, yeah, I think we can trust him. So, hey, phone and airplane mode, cool. And we start talking. And they start telling me about that they've been, they're talking about wanting to do bigger things. They didn't necessarily say we're gonna kill people yet, but it's definitely enough to lead us to believe that we need to stay in this longer because we got to figure out what they're talking about. - Yeah. - Right, so let's just fast forward. Fast forward, 'cause this was a fast-paced case. It was only seven months long, but I'm telling you, it was like no sleep for seven months, you know? - Yeah. - And just running and gunning. So, what I find out is the Georgia sale has identified a couple, a couple counties over in Georgia that they believed were active members of Atlanta, Antifa and anti-fascists, right? So, they wanted to murder 'em. And so, when you find out that somebody's getting ready to be like, we're like, man, what is it that they were supposed to do? And I'm like, Luke would never answer me on the phone. He would just giggle and he goes, look, I'll tell you to your face, I'm just gonna do it on the phone. I said, you know what, I'm cruising through there tomorrow. I wasn't, obviously, I'm like, I call the case team. You ready to go to Georgia tomorrow? Are you ready for me tomorrow? Yes, I go down, wake him up. I'm like, okay, you know, I like the joke, I like to have fun. But when it's time to do business, I'm serious. I said, so what the after we doing? 'Cause he wouldn't tell me that they called us, they sent out a thing like, hey, training this, we're going on a camping trip, blah, blah, blah, bring it, it looked like he was talking about going out and putting up stickers, posters, fliers. But then he said, make sure you bring your weapons. And they were all like, what does he mean? What would be going on? So when I met him that day, I said, when I said, what the after we doing, he says, essentially, we're gonna wax some people. And I said, well, that's way different than putting up stickers. And it's something I definitely would not want to drive my personal truck to. That's why I'm asking you, what are we doing? Do I need to bring something that doesn't come back to me kind of thing? Get a rental or whatever. So he says he starts laying it out. But now I'm thinking, because the case team's thinking this too, we got to slow it down. We got to slow this down. Because if we weren't to found out, I would have been finding out at a camp on a Friday night. And now I let my cover team know that, you know what I mean? So yeah, you got to hurt yourself. Yeah, I pointed out to him. But there's you need some space for everybody to figure things out. So you got to slow it down. Yeah, so I'm like, I told him, I mean, sometimes the case didn't allow for that. You got to take it down right there and there. For sure. But I pointed out to him how little planning he had put in to this murder he's talking about. Because the planning he drafted on putting up flyers was like insanely operational security. I'm like, what's the biggest? I'm just tired of waiting. And I said, look, I'm going to say, I played a. Did he send you a J-Pag over to where he would need just draw it on something? No, he was just telling me. He was just telling me the drawing of it. Yeah, nothing. Oh, you got to at least draw it up. And that's what I told him. I was portraying a site survey, a site survey specialist. And I said, this is what I do. I said, I can go in and pull demographics, homes, schools, crime rates, everything. And I said, let me find out what's all at this house. I mean, have you even been by? He said, no. So we start building that. I come in with fake plates. I say, I just took these off of cardboard floor to throw those on. We go by, we case the place. I'm not leading it, they're leading it, right? And meanwhile, Punish Snake has now gone back to the Maryland sale. He's up there with a guy that goes, buy, can't go back. Can't go back. It was the only one that I really knew in our proximity that actually had a job too. He was a truck driver. And he had a $6,000 thermal scope on the 6.5 creed more. And they were talking about, now, they, up there, they're plotting to kick off of the bugaloo because there was going to be a second amendment gun, gun, second amendment rally for gun rights in Virginia in 2020, January of 2020. And they thought, okay, you're going to have Antifa. You're going to have three percenters, militia types, anti-government types. You're going to have law enforcement. What if we start popping rounds into the crowd from our sniper rifles? And then nobody knows who's shooting each other and they start shooting each other. What if that's the kickoff to the bugaloo? I know it's not a lot of fourth thought or a lot of afterthought. But this is what you're dealing with, right? And I'll say this, that's a good plan. Yeah, for what they're trying to do. Yeah. Create chaos. It's like when you tap somebody on the shoulder over here and you're standing over here. Yeah, exactly. You know, which you Victor Wimbingiani. You know who that is? Basketball guy? Oh, yeah, yeah. Tall scabber. Imagine if he does that to people all the time or he would like tap somebody way over there. Yeah, and nobody knows. And he's three people over there. Yeah. Imagine in kindergarten or whatever. He must have been able to have the most fun. Anyway, back into the story. So yeah, that's absolutely insane. So then we start casing that. But meanwhile, we're finding out more stuff on these, these, the sell up in Maryland. And what the Baltimore division does is they do a title three wiretow. And they put cameras in that apartment. If I thought, if, if what I thought they were talking about was crazy face to face, the stuff that they were sending me that they were saying in that apartment was just them to go. And I'm like, holy crap. Now, breaking out the saints and what they refer to the saints is your white supremacy mass shooters, the Charleston gang.
- Yeah, the New Zealand guy, the Norway guy. I'm not saying their names on the purpose, right? But they actually have a scoreboard and it says the scoreboard and it's got the mass shooters, the white supremacist 77 and 0. That's the Norway guy, I think it's 55 and 0. It was New Zealand, you go all the way down Pittsburgh, 7 and 0, nine for Charleston. And it says when will you make the leaderboard? - Wow. - You know, these are the starts. - Yeah, so on the anniversary of those mass murders, they'll say happy saint, right. Like if it were me, it'd be happy saint pain day, you know? And it's just crazy. So, but again, are you just talking trash? Are you gonna do something, right? So now we're diving down to the end of this case. And we're on a time, we're trying to make sure everything gets together. And I'm running nonstop. I go to Baltimore, I drive up and shoot all day with the Maryland crew trying to tighten things up, make sure we got everything, settle for that, go down to the Georgia crew, have cased the place with everybody in the, I mean, you got guys saying like, hey, are there any kids? And another dude saying, I don't have a problem shooting a kind of kid. You got another dude saying, oh, I'm perfect, I'm an IT. I work nine to five. I look like a normal citizen, but I've been wanting to do this for two years. Can I pop my cherry? I'm like, well, popping your cherry means something to me. - Yeah. - Well, he actually wants to put a bullet in one of his head. He doesn't want to just be standing guard. So for this Georgia crew, they had it down to where we're all four we're going to go in. - Yeah. - One was going to post in the window. Me and this is where I was instructed to do. Me and TMB were going to go down and murder the family and anything else. But if they want to put a bullet in too, we'll let them take a shot. And then pestilence is going to set the house on fire. We're going to leave. And that was, that was number one because they had already started forming a list of liberal journalist anchors. And I'm like, you tell, I said, you're telling me you want to start taking out people who are like popular popular. They go, yeah, and I go, well, it's a good thing we got this family to start and get a little practice run. But. - So you're trying to keep them locked into this so that you guys can, you guys can, can, can, can take action. - Right, and you're looking at over an axe. Okay, so what did you do? So if you want to come back and say, oh, we were just talking trash. Now, you bought catch bags to put on AR. So when you shoot, if you have to shoot, it catches the brass. You don't leave brass. We created a silencer for a gun, other things like. He told us the way he was going to work is we're going to go to a camp, leave all of our digital footprint, all media, all phones, everything there. Go to a pay by the hour motel, scrub all our loose skin off. We're going to put on BDU's or whatever. We're going to tape our pants to our boots, tape our gloves to our wrists. Even, he was instructing, even put Vaseline on your facial hair so you don't drop anything. And he'd even done enough research to where he had read that this would be Luke, TNB, who was telling me this. He had read that for a lot of people, the first time they murdered somebody, they lose control of their bowel. So he was suggesting we wear depends. What do you mean diapers? Yeah, diapers, oh my god. And I looked at him and I said, I'll be all right. I didn't say I killed anybody. I'm just saying I don't need a diaper. Wow. And I'm like, I'll be okay. Just letting them let it marinate. So we were able to pull it all off. We came in on a Wednesday, yeah, we came in on a Wednesday, started the arrest. I picked up Luke because we figured that would, I mean, sneaking up on a hundred acres. Well, hold on a second, man, I'll hold on a second. Yeah. This is going so fast, man. I mean, it's going, it's taking a long story, but it's going so now it's at this crescendo where it's like, that's kind of cool. So what are you like that day? Do you like, I was running on fumes. I had the flu at the time. My back was spazzling because what I didn't realize. Yeah. Well, if you're going to murder someone, I'll pick you down. Let's say, oh, five. That's one of you. I know. So I'm like, I had a lumbar fusion in 2002. After this case in 2020, I found out that my lumbar fusion had broken approximately three to five years after. So they were telling me for like 15 years, I was going around with a disloc. I mean, a, right, a back that's disconnected. It's a bad hitch or whatever. I mean, broke. There's nothing in there. There's no cadaver bone. There's no disc. There's just floating. And he'll float and spine thread. That sounds like it. So everybody, you would hear me on the recording. And they was like, was that you making that sound? I said, yeah. And they go, what happened? Because I'm a back jerk. You know, I'm walking. I'm walking like that. You know what? (laughs) Well, you just, you barely keep it together. Okay. So let's get to the end of this story just because we should. Yeah. You guys are driving over there. You're driving. Yeah. So I drive. And you know what y'all's playing is. Because for me, personally, I was dealing with squat teams because they were going to let a squat team hit us. So I made sure that, I mean, I go and meet them. They tell me what they're planning on. And as long as I'm okay, and I don't disagree with safety stuff, being a squat guy myself, you know what I'm like? Okay. I looked at it and I'm like, all these dudes are squared away. So I go and pick Luke up for lunch. But I've already laid out all this stuff to where I'm like, "Hey, man, we're getting close to this thing." And he's like, yeah, I said, you know, I've been thinking, the last thing we need to do is be riding around and get put on a radar that the cop stopped us, like, and he goes, you know, I said, good idea. So when I picked him out that day, I said, hey, you're not packing, right? He goes, no, no, no, no, I left it inside. It's a mean either, man. So I'm getting the information, getting the intel that he's not carrying. Yeah. We pull around, I like my truck has a problem. I pull over, I go, I get, if I said, if that damn, because literally it did happen to my truck, the calipers froze. They got laid locked in froze. And smoke was going everywhere. I said, if that damn calipers locked again, and he's like, man, that's a, I pull over and I get close to the fence to where he can't get out. And then I go around the back of the truck, I'm like, I'm looking and then another truck pulls up. Well, it's actually an FBI agent. But he pulls up and he goes, hey, man, you need me help. And I look up and I came up with the whole ruse. We practice it. And he says, hey, man, you need me help. And I look up and I go, holy shit, what are you doing here? And now we're acting like we know each other. He goes, what are you doing here? I go, man, I ain't seeing you forever. I didn't know you lived around here. I go, man, this is a nice truck and as I'm walking at the talk to him, Luke's looking at us. And then what he doesn't see is the barricade, which is the military vehicle, the SWAT team uses. And it's coming over to you. So he's focused on us and I jump into the truck, right when they pull up, right when I'm jumping into the truck going, go, go, go, they're right there. They got, I mean, rifles, they're up on the turret. Don't move and they got him out. No issues, arrest will know nothing wrong. And then why, that happens. And then they go pick up pestilence at his house. They pick up Helter Skelter, who was the pop my cherry guy. They pick him up at his work. He's wilding. And then we keep it quiet because Thursday morning, he's just still more to bust. Yeah, 'cause that was Wednesday, Thursday morning, the Washington field, all the SWAT team hit Billbro, the Baltimore SWAT team hit. Can't go back and punish Snake. And then now it starts coming out. So now it's Friday and I'm still in the group. I'm just monitoring and it's Friday. And now the arrests are starting to come out like holy crap. Did you see this, did you read this? And now the affidavits are starting to pop up. And they're like, wait, it says here that there's a fed an infiltrated this group. And they're like, who's the fed in the group? And everybody's like, is anybody heard from Pell Horse? No, no, no, no. And it goes on and goes, I'm just watching. I'm watching somewhere around five o'clock on Friday. Nazaro, Roman Wolf, AKA Roman Wolf, comes on and goes. He says something to the effect of, I'm not sure we could have done anything to pick him up because he was one of our best members. And then, and I was like, oh, he knows this me because he's going back. And I mean, I'm sure he keeps recordings of all the interviews he's done and stuff or at least say on this day that I did this. And they figured it out. And I was like, oh, he's got me. And it says, boom, you've been removed by Roman Wolf. I screen-shotted it and I send it to all the case teams, headquarters and everything. And I go, and I'm out. And. But they were talking, we had some other coverage in there that people reported. And it turns out there was another dude that had infiltrated that group, not law enforcement, though, was doing it, helping, you know, reporting to, you know, I don't know whether it be the Guardian, something paper, yeah, BBC, something. So we got copies of what the chatter after I got booted. And some of my case team printed it for me. When I came in, it was highlighted up on my desk. It says something like, was, are you saying the Fed was the guy with the deep voice on the calls? And they're like, yeah, they go, there's no way, dude, that's one of the most solid neo-nauties I've ever been around, you know? And then the other would be like, oh, there was something really endearing about him, you know? And I look at the squad and I'm like, see? They do love me. These are my people, you know? I'll take them, bro. Yeah. Fuck. And then you, then you get home and you go, I'll take a shower. Yeah, how long do you take off after that? It depends. Because I used to not take any days off. But that ended up being my downfall. And then I learned how not to do that to myself. So by that time, I'm longing to, I couldn't work till I was 57. That's the cutoff for the FBI. But I was 50 at this point, or at least I retired at 50. Why you look great, man? Yeah, so it was like, you know, I was like, that one, I probably took the week off, you know? This relax, chill. Called my pastor though, especially after that Halloween weekend. I was like, man, I feel kind of, like you said, my spirit is like, I feel kind of dirty, man. I'm not praying ever, you know? And do you have a family during this? Yeah. Do you sell the family? Yeah, but I'm going through the voice. Oh, yeah. We didn't make it. Not going to talk about it because it's still going through. But I'm sorry to hear that for you and your wife. Yeah, it's a, we're a statistic now, you know? So kids, kids are growing up and moved out.
And then, and I'm retired and yeah. - Do you feel like the job had an effect on your marriage? - I'm sure, because my wife was not law enforcement. This was not her world, essentially, I was her world. So she married me, but you married me. Yeah, you married the Bureau too. I mean, you look back and I, doing the book, you had to dive back in 'cause I wanted to be transparent. That's the only way to know how to be. But I don't want it to be all kicks and pies. I want to tell you when it was sad too, when it was messed up. So even though we were happy at the time, we were doing this book to dive back into times where we weren't happy, that was tough. That was tough, man, to put your mind back when, oh my gosh, you know, not one one, hang up, call, cop, show up at the house. I got to call my Supervisor, you know, whatever, whatever's going on, me, me, going through, you know, getting stripped of the basement at gunpoint and all this stuff, it's just, yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure it did. Well, I know it did because, especially during some of the cases, early on when our kids were young, like three and one, man, I, just to get rid of her nervous energy, she'd be moving furniture and stuff. So I'd come home and, you know, you walk in the door and trip over something, I'm like, why the, they put the couch here, you know? - Really? - But then she-- - There's so much anxiety. - Yeah, and the way she tells it is that she finally just had to give it up to the Lord 'cause she could worry about me all the time. But I told her, I said, when it's my time, it's my time. I think I'm good at what I do. I'm not like today's at all. I've been blessed with this skill set and with this, you know, whatever. I've been blessed with all this, so-- - Man, that was so, it'd be tough. To take somebody you love every day and just letting know that the whole day there is a risk. - Well, welcome to the first responder in military. - Yeah, I think you're for saying that, no, you're right. - Yeah, I mean, it's, like I said, man, if you're, you think a pitch to hire people is like, hey, we're real high on suicide, substance abuse, divorce, and dying within five years after retiring. Who wants in? (laughs) - Yeah. - Oh man. - It's-- - Sign me up. - It's even laugh at that. - I know, but it's like, you know, so we gotta get better. And you're seeing a lot more stuff. You're seeing a lot more. I don't know if law enforcement is gonna open up about it. They should, but you see a lot of spec ops, former spec ops, former law enforcement, and they're getting these, they're getting these plant-based treatments, you know? - Yeah, I can't even imagine. I never thought about the stress of that spouses and children must feel with a member of their family being involved, like in a service. - Yeah. - In life risking service, you know? - Yeah, I think there should be more, actually, my wife was saying it from the jump, 'cause in the FBI, we have a psychological unit that was specifically created for undercover. It's called Safeguard. So if I'm an active undercover, I have to be psychologically assessed, mandatory. - Got it. - And then we expanded it out. And it's being used to do a lot of things. So like if you're an agent or a task force officer and you work innocent images, crowns against children, we get you assessed, 'cause it's tough to look at that stuff and see that kind of stuff on a daily basis. - Had to take a little bathroom break there, man. - School. - This is the longest episode we've ever had, I think, man. So thank you for your attention to detail and just taking us down some-- - Being a slow talker? - Hey, just taking us down some memories of yours, man. It's nice. It's nice to listen to a storytell, you know? Someone share their story and share stories from their book and I know you had mentioned earlier, we talked a little bit about the one percenters. And you had a pretty famed case with the outlaws. Can you take me into that? - Sure. Again, longest undercover idea, two years. The infiltration, I kind of got, I can't remember again, if I got recruited or I saw a canvas, but it was probably just a phone call because as I said, working at the UC school, at the undercover school, if you, in the Bureau, if you say, all right, we've got 600 certified undercoverers. How many of those undercoverers have been the primary undercover on an operation, on one? It's gonna dwindle down, more than one less than five. It's gonna dwindle down. More than five less than 10 now, it's really getting dwindled down. If you get to like that 10 and every mark, it's generally, we all know each other 'cause we all go back to the program, we all help out with the school and stuff. And you know who's active and who it. And so somebody reaches out. I went up and did the interview in Massachusetts in Boston. And I got the gig. We talked about all kinds of things on like what ways to go in, ways to not go in. I prefer to go in cold, which means I'm not being introduced by source. Go into, to try to make that bump. In other words, the outlaws were already predicated. They've already got the outlaws R.A. The outlaw motorcycle club is a 1% or club. It's probably the second largest. Hell's Angels is probably the largest. But worldwide, and that's there. That's their calendars right there. They refer to the school as Charlie. Okay. The AOA, American Outlaws Association. They started in McCook, Illinois in 1935. The outlaws MC is the oldest outlaw biker club in the world with 441 chapters located in 43 countries. The club is also the second largest in the world behind the hell's angels. And what made you, is it still active? Oh yeah, the outlaws are still going strong. And what made you want to infiltrate them? Well, it's the case team. It's not necessarily me. It's that there's a case team in the task force and state and local law enforcement that have been working up there. And they've got different over. They've got different crimes. They've arrested people, but they're at a point now in their investigation where they feel like they can get an undercover. Or that's the next step to do. Got it. And the whole group outlaws is not a criminal organization. There was just somebody that was doing crime in it. Correct, got it. That's the argument. Like I said earlier, somebody's like, we're all 1% of criminals like them. Not necessarily, but it's kind of the point of being a 1% or, you know what I mean? But like all bikers, you know, I've heard them say they're not all of them. But the ones I infiltrate is like, I didn't join the outlaws to be a beta. I joined the outlaws to be an alpha. Right. I'm going out here. I don't care what I'm doing. I'm an outlaw. Yeah. All-private equity people. Criminals? Yeah. But so these guys were predicated. The Tonton chapter specifically. Tonton Massachusetts. And I went up, I interviewed and I said, look, okay, my idea was just let me go in there. So what I did, because I used to work at gentleman's clubs, which is an oxymoron, in my opinion, because there's no gentleman in there. And neither was I back then living in the flesh, as they say. I know you're right. And then you have two daughters and it's all girl dogs. I'm like, y'all stay away from any pole in this house. I swear, no. But I knew how those establishments worked. So I went, I would go in when, like day shift, when it wasn't, and the outlaws were not all in there. 'Cause we knew that they told me the bar they were at and stuff. So that's what I did, maybe two, three times, because human nature is to exaggerate, you know? So the night that they're finally coming in, the outlaws are finally coming in. Coming in the ship club? Yeah, because I'm there now, okay? So they have a lot of your biker clubs, 1% are clubs, have a mandatory meeting every week. They refer to that as church. Some clubs, that's where they talk dirty business. You know, you leave your phones outside, all that thing. Or it just might be shooting the bull. It might be time to collect the dues, whatever. But the surveillance team was on 'em. I'm already at the Foxy lady, which was the strip club in Oregon. It was in Brockton, Massachusetts. So Talton and Brockton are right next to each other. But the strip clubs in Brockton. So I'm already at the Foxy lady. I'm getting some drinks. I'm telling jokes, people are laughing. And then here comes like 13, 15 outlaws. And they take the whole back wall in the back bar. See a black leather and testosterone, right? And originally I'd been told that they weren't allowed to wear their colors, which is the vest with the moniker you saw, yeah, that's their cut. And that was one of my first questions. I'm like, hey, man, can they wear their colors in the club? And the bars? And they're like, no, they're not allowed to. And I'm like, okay, that makes it easier for me. Yeah. I'm just a tattooed dude, drinking whiskey, looking at naked people, listening to heavy metal music. It's the same thing the guy next to him is doing. Well, when they come in and they're all wearing their colors, that changes my approach, because listen to me. Do I sound like I'm from Boston? Absolutely not. As soon as I start talking, they're like, where the F are you from? And I'm like, you know, deep south. South South. I'm from South Boston. I'm a Southeast. But uh, Southeast Carolina. Yeah, Southeast Carolina, I see it, you know, Kekalaki. So, you know, do you walk around the bar and go, hey, fellas, y'all ride? No. I'm gonna take a butt kicking or something. So I started working, doing what I do, I guess. There was one guy that they had said that was in the group and they had the Intel perfect on him. He loved to be surrounded by big dates. He liked to be the center of attention. So I'm laughing it up and I'm cutting it up and it's getting louder and louder. And, but I've got people around me that I can see him. You know, it's like fishing, like I can see him looking. You know, I'm like, okay, all right. He's paying attention now. I was a bigger dude. Six, four, probably, two, 80 then and holding it very well. And he, uh, I see him talking to the bartender. Well, what's he saying? Who is that? Oh, that dude's from Texas. Man, he comes here all the time. All the time? Two, three times, you know, whatever. But then, sir, sir,
Eventually he yells at me and he says, yeah, there I am, right there after a shoulder surgery. He yells at me and he says, Hey, where the hell are you from? And I'm like, man, down near the border, Mexico. What? So we started joking back and forth. I think he sent me a drink first, called me over. I want to ever start talking. Next thing you know, we're hitting it off. He's giving me cards for the lobster festival, which is lobster fest. - Yeah, they love it. The lobster, and it was gonna be like the next month and he said, just tell them you with me. So then you start, you just start ingratiating and you start getting trust. - Yeah. - And they love a lobster, man. - Yes. - They love a fish that can pinch you. - Yeah, man, and out of that me too. I'm a bottom feeder, all over, man. All of 'em shrimp, shrimp and crab legs. I can eat my weight and that stuff. - Yeah, I'm a top. - Yeah, so eventually you get in and you make more and more acquaintances. And I came in as a site survey specialist, the same kind of thing I did on the base case, but that allowed me to travel. It allowed me to be there and not live there or whatever. You know, I found quickly when I started flying a lot that even in Houston, when I was based in McCallan, there's people that don't live in Houston, but there's so many dagum flights. They literally fly in, work, fly home. Or they might come in for the week and then go home on the weekend. So I said, well, I can sell that 'cause it's true. I mean, I've seen plenty of people doing it. So that's kind of what I was doing. - You were living in Texas and flying in for work? - Yep, and then eventually they find out that I'm also a criminal, shocker, right? 'Cause they're already predicated. I mean, what were you flying it for just to be part of the group? - No, I originally said I'm there doing site survey specialist work for investors that are looking to buy property. - Got it. - And I would go do that. And I would actually go legitimately, go down to the clerk of court and pull records and stuff. 'Cause again, you want it to look, smell, taste, feel real. But what they eventually learned or what I portrayed and what they believed was that I was a high ranking, if not the leader of an high ranking member, if not the leader of an international theft ring. And I was moving stuff into Mexico. So it started with some insurance fraud. They would report vehicle stolen motorcycles. And this is all based on the truth because at that time when I was living in the border, I'd already learned through auto theft groups, task forces and stuff, and from the insurance company, that Harley-Davidson's and V8 4x4's man, the cartella, they would steal them all the time. So I'm telling the truth and they do motorcycles first. So they report three or four Harley's stolen. So they get the stolen money from their insurance company. I pay a stolen prize, which is usually around 20% of what the real prize would be. And then I'm off. Well, they don't get arrested. And then the next thing, you know, it's a truck. And the next thing, you know, and then we get full fledged. Now it's like, when you're coming back, techs, when you're coming back, I got three things lined up. So you pull up, man, we would load F-350s. - Yeah, still my wife. - Yeah, F-350s stuff like that. But even if you were worried about predication, like if you're predicated and for the people that don't know that, it just means that we've got evidence that you either talked about or they're doing it. So if we have nothing on you and I'm coming out to bump you and I was going to go, hey man, you want some marijuana or you want a kilo of coke? That's odd and that's not right. I'm now leading it. But when the first time I walk outside with the president of the outlaws chapter who went by Joe Dogs, so he's the chapter president. We walk outside and he goes, where you live? I said in my count. He goes, where's August's right on the border? Next question. How much can you get a kilo of cocaine for? I'm like about 13 right now. There's between 11 and 13 on the border. He goes, man, if I could get him for 13, I said, no, you don't get him for 13. Then let's you come to the border and then you drive him back up. The reason they cost 25 to 30 up here is because it has to make it here from the border. Not a good drug dealer or his math was off. Not a good business man. I'm like, no, that's not how it works. There's risk involved. Well, it's a good pitch. And I want to get it for the same as you. I know, yeah. So next thing you know, like I said, F-350s. 4x4 tall, it was a lot of insurance fraud at first. At first. Then I've gained trust. Now they carjacked somebody and they're calling me techs. We got one that is hot. I mean, it is on fire right now. We just took this dude at gunpoint. We almost killed him, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, don't worry about it. I got it. And now I'm moving that. Now I'm gaining more trust. Right. So as the case goes on and they're using code language. We got a bad lobster up here or something like that. You can, but it was comical about that. The it was upset on so many wiretaps and we've run wiretaps and you're listening or you get on the phone yourself as undercover and you're being all like super operational secure to you like, okay, the bird is in the cage. Right. I've got three cheeseburgers out back. Five minutes into the conversation. I'm telling you, 99% of the time. They're just talking openly. Yeah. It's like they start with it. You know, like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. There's like a whisper in the wig wand or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So like I had a guy on another case. I won't go into it because I will stay on the outlaws. But this is what he, he's like, no, Scott, you know, I don't do cocaine anymore. And I'm looking at him going, I know, man, I know. He goes, I used to do boatload of it, but I don't do it anymore. I said, I know. He said, this right here. That's just a bump. And he goes on and I go, you just did cocaine. And he said, okay. And he says, you know, I don't sell it anymore either. I said, I know, Mike. He said, I used to sell truckloads of it, but I don't need more. And I said, I know, man. He goes, but if you want him five eight balls, I'll get him for 750. It's just like I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm confused. So, so during this case, a guy I didn't tell you about. I was actually a picture of him in that picture. You pulled up the red shirt, red t-shirt, a Scot town. I talked thoroughly about Scot town on the book. Again, I told you. I'll work undercover from 96 to 2022, roughly. And how much cocaine are on right there with that bad arm, but look at you grinning. That would be muscle relaxers and pain feels. I'm like, God, really? I'm like, I'm like less than a week out, I think, right there. Yes, smile, did a gram at least. No, I did not. Just joking. Yeah, I know. Okay, so Scot town. So this is legitimately the closest relationship I've ever built undercover. We bonded so well, and it was scary. Like I mean, I'm talking like we could complete each other sentences. We thought the same. It was literally the story of that proverbial fork in the road. He went that way and I went that way and I easily could have gone his way. And maybe that's why I was good at my skillset in these types of environments. Because he always just friends, well, he was, he was, he went to jail. He was a target. I mean, he was not a patch member. His story was he was going to be patched, but he was also doing some stuff for the mafia. And somewhere his group got pinched and he was, he was looking at time. And at that point in time, he had four daughters. And he said, I don't want to, I don't want to go to prison with my four daughters. And I was like, hey, man, cool. But they would be like a lot. They would be talk like man, grenades, bazooka, whatever rocket launchers, not a bazooka, rocket launcher. Yeah. But those things would talk and then it wouldn't come to or somebody would come in talking big and we'd like, all this looks good. And then it wouldn't come through. But, but after the car jackens and thing like that, we start getting more and more because the case team is also running the title three wiretape. And eventually we got to the point in the case where I let them know, not all it wants, but I let them know that yes, I did used to be in the drug trade. But heat was getting close. People were getting pinched and I backed out of it because running everything south, most of the time law enforcement is looking for money or guns going south to trade for dope or buy dope. Got it. I'm like, if you got a still, this is my story to him. I'm like, if you, I'm like, if you got a truck full of stolen vehicles of the bill of laden. I mean, what's the truck driver know? He sees the bill of laden. He does what he does. He's talking, blowing smoke, but it kind of making it, making them comfortable, relaxed. I think enough. But I eventually let them know I did used to be in the dope game because from day one, they were hounding me. When you can introduce to somebody down there, when you can think of it, what does a drug dealer want? They want the purest dope they can get at the cheapest price they can get. So that way you can step on it and make some money, right? So imagine having a pipeline and little little fountain mass that's used, it's directly from the car tail. Let's go. Yeah. Right. You getting keys. So that's what they saw in you. Yeah. Got it. And that was all fictional. That was my backstory. Yeah. That was my legend. Yeah. But it wasn't really happening, right? And like all the stolen vehicles, they would think they're going to, no, we would make sure nobody's following them. But then that semi would turn around and head up north of Boston or something to a warehouse. And by the end of the case, you got a warehouse full of stolen parts and cars and motorcycles and stolen cars and whatever. Big trucks. Big trucks. But so the case gets to a point like, yeah, sorry, it's good. So I start laying out that I wasn't a dope game. And Joe Dawgs is chomping at the bit, man, he's like, he's like, dude, if I, you got to introduce me, I started saying, my guy's Manny, Manny, Manny. And they're like, man, if I can meet Manny, well, the whole ruse was, and this, this technique has been used and it was a drug protection. I said, look, here's the deal. I laid it out over a long period of time. But I'm like, look, Manny reached out to me once I know he wanted
truck drivers that deliver a load in the Canada. And the reason I told them that a white guy, the Gringo never got kicked out of a Mexican drug trafficking organization or international theft ring is because I was the guy with the dirty contacts at the Porta Entry and at the checkpoints. And yes, there's corruption not all, but I'm saying it's there's corruption cases on the border. I mean, think about this. You get somebody offers you 15 grand to do this. Next. I mean, if you're broke, I mean, you know what I mean. So I say everybody's dirty, but I'm saying that's why that was my story. And they believed it because why else would they keep me in? So when I did that story about going to Canada, I said, hey, does your guy, do you still have your people at the checkpoint or at the Porta Entry? Now they fell through and I said, I'm not let my truck drivers do it. I said, but I've been being handed. We just want to meet them and I'm like, what if they come here and we just meet and we help this because we want to make sure nothing's getting ripped and all that stuff. And they're like, yeah, man, that'd be awesome. So that's what we started laying out. Now, Scott town jumped on and Scott town, I even look at him and I'm like, dude, why are you doing this? Well, you told me you didn't, but not. There's a strong argument to be made that the reason he did that is because he liked me so much. No way. Because he. So you kind of let him into it even just by being buddies. It's not an entrantment thing, but it's like if you ask him, he's probably going to say something like this. I didn't want to do it. And I was suspicious, but he knew Joe Dawgs and the other people involved could screw it up really bad. And if I got hurt and he wasn't there, he'd never forgive himself. You see what I'm saying? He always close, huh? Yeah, tight. Real tight. But so there's a point in the case. And I'm bouncing his daughter on my knee, his daughter's one, my youngest daughter's one. So they kind of are making the same noises and moving the same, but I'm not at home with my daughter. I'm there with his. And you know, you're looking. I know the training. I know I put the training on, but I'm looking ever going, man, I love this guy. I mean, he's, I mean, yeah, I mean, if he does criminal stuff, okay, but I mean, we think the same. He likes to do this. I like to do. We workout, fight, ride, all that stuff, man. And do you miss him? Yeah. Yeah. He's still keeping in touch with them? Maybe. Maybe now. After after all this came out. Yeah. It's, uh, it's pretty amazing actually. I've also been trolled by people we put in jail too. It's pretty funny. But, uh, maybe I'll end it on that. But so, I'm looking at the refrigerator and I'm thinking all these thoughts and I'm like, man, I'm looking at the refrigerator. He's got all kinds of stickers and magnets and stuff. And I saw one that said WWSD. Now, if you're in the Christian faith, you see WWJD a lot. What would Jesus do? What would Jesus do? Wrist bands and stuff. And I looked there like a WWSD and I looked and said, what would Satan do? And I went, oh, no, he's different. He's different. But it was just like a tough guy thing. And then, uh, Sue wasn't a real Satanist. No, no, he's just, just, just bolstering, just joking around magnets. Yeah. But, uh, but that was like, oh, no, we're not the same. You're going to jail. But, uh, I, uh, but is that weird, man, and be hanging out with somebody and always singing back your head? They're gonna get a jail. Yeah. If it sounds like a fucking power trip. No, actually, it could be, it could give you some stress. It could give you some PTSD. You can start getting anxiety because you're sitting there going, okay, you're, you're fearing the end of the case. You're fearing them finding out who you are. You're fearing this relationship that you built. And I know there'll be plenty of, maybe law enforcement or even people on the case. It'd be like, I can't believe you talking like that. Look, man, I'm human. I love that guy. Yes. Well, would it be ever be weird like if you were leaving a room together or something and like, you wouldn't want to walk out first? That would be my fear all the time. I'd always like, I gotta walk behind because I don't want to, you know, I'm saying, what if they know something or they're leading me somewhere? Well, I'll say this. A lot of cops, a lot of cops sitting in the restaurant that give their back to the wall because you want to see everything. When you undercover, can you do that? I mean, can I come in there and hug the wall in my back the whole way through or do I just got to look like I'm a normal person? People would catch on. Yeah. So you don't want to look, you don't want to race a suspicion. Got it. So the case is going and we get to the point where we're going to do the drug deal. Got everything lined up, months and months and months, scots in. There's some outlaws from Brockton that are in it. There's some outlaws from Talton that are in it. And, you know, you asked one percent or are they all criminals? I mean, you look at the Brockton chapter. Let's say most of them had day jobs. Maybe they bent. No, they did time. Maybe they didn't. But you go to the Talton chapter and had like 13, 13 to 15 outlaws. One and a half had a job. I say half because that guy was attached to orders and appears her, but I don't think he worked nine to five, seven days a week. He was more like a part time thing. The other guy had a tow company. Everybody else was a straight thug. All criminal activity didn't make money. Whether it's Robin, home invasion, car jacking, theft, dope, you know. Yeah. So I would do the dope. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'd probably do that every car theft for sure. But I don't even like driving at night that much. Really? I don't love it. So we get to the night before we've lined everything up. And the assistant United States attorney is like, Hey, they're talking about, are they talking about this in the clubhouse, you know, kind of thing about this drug deal that we're getting ready to do and all this. I said, yeah, I mean, I'm sure we'll talk about it. You know, and from an, from an investigative or evidence standpoint, it would be good to have because if they're talking about that planning and all that, that'll help with like asset for mature and getting search rewards for the, for the property and stuff. So just having recordings and talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. So I go to the, I go to the clubhouse. Joe Dawgs tells me to come over. It's the night before we're going to do the big drug deal. They don't know it, but we've got 50 kilos of real cocaine and we've got a thousand pounds of real week. Let's go. And we're going to have to move it from one truck to another. Now, snipers are up on the roof. I mean, we got swat all in the hotel. I mean, I literally did like the TV thing where you walk in and you can't see nothing because the projectors on your face and they're like, this is the guy that's going to be the undercover. You know, and I'm like, yeah, I look a lot like the other dudes. Don't shoot me. Just tell me I'll be real stale, man. You know, yeah. I'm like, on the guy wearing like the, I would wear like a special neck brace, like a, um, maybe like a John L. Wade jersey or something. Yeah. Something to stand out, dude. Oh, we're like a, yeah, like a Mason Crosby jersey. I would wear something that like do not shoot this crash test dummy full jump suit, you know, right reflections on it. Yeah. I'm like a suicide boy shirt or maybe not that. That might not help. That might not help. So, so, uh, I remember here's a funny one. Joe dogs. I said, Hey, man, we got to be nonchalant. We're going to be out here doing all this stuff. I was like, Hey, uh, we're, we're something that doesn't attract a lot of attention. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not the way he dressed. You walk out there with a shirt that says F that bitch. Oh, yeah. And I'll cast and I'm like, that's low key. All right. Well, I mean, who knows what he'd sold her before that? I know. Right. So, so it's the night before I get there, uh, and they're having church. They're still having church. I'm banging on the door and it's weird. Man, nobody's coming and all of a sudden Joe dogs does that, you know, like, Hey, uh, uh, we're not ready yet. And I'm like, well, why'd you call me over here? Yeah. I'm not thinking nothing. I go, uh, he tells me to take a probate, which would be somebody on probation or they calling prospects. You're not a full patch member yet. You're, you're, you've advanced from hangar around status. You're trying to become a full patch member. So he says, Hey, take probate. Oh, be y'all going to get something neat. So we went down to some restaurant got a couple of drinks. Something he came back and I go into the clubhouse. And when I go in the clubhouse, I've been in that thing like umpteen town. I don't know. There's one door I've never been in. Now for the listeners that may not know, um, at least with this chapter, if you weren't a patch member, which I wasn't, um, you're not allowed to touch the door. You're not allowed to touch the phone, but you're giving you drinks for free, right? I had been asked and I actually have been told that I need to become an outlaw. Um, but I painted it as like, I travel all over the country, man. I can't have that right that bullseye on my back, you know, but I'm very humbled by kind of thing. Um, but so I go in there and at this point in the case, it's been a year and a half. I'm a year and a half in and my closest relationship with Scott town, my second closest relationship is at point is the enforcer who goes by, he went by the street name clothesline. His real name is Brian DeLivega. So that was my second closest relationship. My third closest was the president, Joe Dawgs and then it just trickled down from there. But by this time, I've been all over the country. I've been the sturgis. I've been to, you know, Daytona, wherever riding all over the place. So I've met outlaws all over, actually, I met outlaws from all over the world. And, uh, they were actually recruiting myself in Scott town because I was bigger than two. Uh, but it's, it Boston's a little weird because Boston and North is hell's angel territory. Boston and South was outlaws territory and they were arched rivals. And then you get to Cape Cod and hell's angels had a chapter there. So the outlaws were looking to set up a chapter in Cape Cod, but they wanted to fill it with big, strong dudes that can handle themselves. Okay. And they were recruiting us for that, you know. So, I go into the clubhouse.
the door shuts behind me, dead bolts, still frame door. They had a well. - It told you you'd never been in. - No, no, no, this is this the entry door. - Got it. - So if you get inside, you'll see that they've welded metal hooks to the still frame of the door and put a still bar across it. So that's gonna, from a breach or standpoint, it's gonna be a little harder to, it'd be tougher to breach. - Got it. - So I'm in there, I'm having some drinks, and I've been there like I said, maybe 20 times. You know, there's one door I've never been in, and clothesline, my second clothes friend, says, he sounded friend, right, friend. He likes Scott Callaway. I don't think he likes Scott Payne too much, but he says, "Hey, Tex, can I talk to you for a minute?" Or he says, "Do you got a minute?" Either, can I talk to you for a minute? You got a minute. I'm like, "Yeah." So as I'm walking, he grabs an ass tray in a lighter, and, or he tells somebody to, and we turn in, and it is a very tight stairwell. It's a very, to call it a basement down there is being very generous. More like a cellar, cross-base. I couldn't stand up straight in it, but it's an earth eastern home kind of split level. And as I'm walking in, chocolate Scott, another member comes in right behind me. - Chocolate Scott? - Yeah, chocolate Scott. - Chocolate Scott, chocolate Scott. - Yeah, they call him Chocolate Scott, or Black Scott. But the thing is, he looked like a Black guy, and what you can't be, in the outlaws. - Oh, yeah. - He can't be. - I'm guessing, I was assuming. - No, he said he was Indian. - He said he looked like a Black guy. - He said he was Indians. Well, they named him chocolate Scott. - Oh, yeah. - That would be my name. (laughs) - Yeah, so I follow, as soon as I turn in behind, clothesline, and chocolate Scott comes in right behind me, I know something's not right. And now it's really tight, and you get down there. It was a little bit of a false start, 'cause there was something down there that another member of edge did not want me to see. And they come down, so going down there steps, I'm already getting the adrenaline up. Like I was talking about earlier, right? We come back up, I'm not free to leave, outlaws everywhere. They're hiding whatever they needed to hide. I'm not sure what it was, but then it's like, okay, let's go back down. So I get down there, and. - So they take you heaven and they take you back up? - Yeah, they take me down. - That'd be weird. - Oh, it's terrible. 'Cause it's almost like you're surprised, probably with that out ready. - Yeah, yeah, 'cause if veg just walks down there, and he's doing this, I see him doing a movement, it's like, "Hey, get out." And I'm like, "I'm looking for plastic on the floor." I saw a rope, and I'm like, "Oh, you saw a rope?" - Yeah, yeah. Like, and I'm like, "Oh, yeah." - And you gotta be thinking I'm getting out of here then. - No, I wasn't. - What'd you think they were gonna do? - I didn't know yet, but. - But even if you saw a rope. - Even if I tried to leave, I mean, think about it. - Like if I see a rope at all, I never see a rope, right? 'Cause I'm. - 13 outlaws, and they've got guns. They already showed me their guns. - Oh, got it. - So I'm basically at gunpoint, you know? - Okay. - So I go back up, and we walk back down, and that's when we get down there, and clothesline says, "Hey, there's a lot of shit going on." And it's my job to take care of my brothers, 'cause he's the enforcer. And he says, "I need you to take all you clothes off, everything boots and everything." - And would you have them boots or sneakers? - I'd boots. And he said, "I need you to write down your full name, your date of birth, your address, your wife's name, you know, I'm not gonna ask for your kids' names, even though I can find them out if I need to." And he goes, "Everything, social security, everything." And I said, "Okay, but you can hear my voice already, 'cause I'm having another adrenaline dump. My voice is higher, my throat's tighter. I'm hearing that, I'm hearing that underwater auditory exclusion is going, woof, woof, woof, woof, woof. - I would be so scared. - I'm my time dilation, my eyes are clicking. Everything I'm hearing is going, "I need you to write down your, that's what I'm hearing." - It's like I'm one of those boxing video games when you're about to get knocked out or whatever, and it starts to get kind of worn. - And blurry, yeah, so. - And did you write your real stuff on there? - Yeah, no, no, no, no, I didn't. I didn't, but I forgot my middle name, because of this dress. I forgot my middle name was Andrew. - Did you just make one up? - No, no, I should have. That had been a smart thing to do, but then again, maybe not, if they're really gonna run it. - Yeah. - Right, so I'm like, I'm going to Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway, and I get Scott, Joseph Callaway, and I'm like, "Nope, I'm going to this roller dex in my head. "It feels like it's eight minutes, just a couple of seconds." And then I remembered my initials, and I remembered, "Oh, I'm Scott, Andrew Callaway." But what I did is, like, when we talked about shootings and stuff, and officers not knowing that they did it, certain things, that same thing happened to me, but it was on a verbal thing. I would have never known I said this unless I didn't listen to the recording, unless I listened to the recording. But while I'm forgetting my middle name, I turn and I go, "What else do you need?" But it sounds like this. "What else do you need?" 'Cause I'm freaking out. My addiction's terrible, talking through my nose, higher pitch voice, and then I hear 'em yell, "What do you need for that website?" And I go, "Okay, 'cause I'm listening, "I'm still listening, even though I'm freaking out." I'm like, "Oh, okay, they're gonna write this down. "They're gonna run me, they're gonna Google me, "and back then they had like a, who's a rat.com, "you can go to and run, see you on there." - Were you on there? - No, no. But I said, "Okay, I'm feeling better." - Feet finder they had too. - Yeah, all right. So then he says, and then I need you to take all you clothes off. - Oh, damn, they want you home feet behind. - He says, 'cause I gotta check you for a while. Here's the issue, I was wired to the hill. - No. - I had two recording devices on me and a transmitter. And I won't say where, what, but. - Fuck, he's a damn iPhone at that point. - Yeah, well, yeah, back then. - No, I mean, you were one. - Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, on there. And back then, that would've been like circa 2006-ish, sevenish, they were big on the next hills. So, you know, yeah, great radio. - Yeah. - But terrible to call somebody. - Yeah, up. - Bring some milk on. - Yeah, I could key you up in Japan and it'd be like, it'd be like, brrr, what's up, brrr, brrr. Hey, you know what I found, but if I tried to call you, we couldn't hear nothing. I'm like, I don't know. - It sounded Japanese. - Yeah, I'm like, I don't know what you talking about. - So, damn, so they trying to strip search you? - Well, they did. - And what about your pants or boxers, you think? - Boxer briefs. - Oh, nice. - Yeah, the comfort of a boxer, but the support of a brief. - Yeah, look, I got them on right now. - I need to take, pretty cool. And, and much like that night, they're not white, which I was happy, you see. - Oh, yeah, if you just sold them up. - It's sold them up, you know what I'm saying? - Little that back bay chow, to side. - Well, I tell them, I say, I say, so we just joking at this point, are we scared? - No, I'm scared to death. I'm scared to death. - I'm joking about it now, but I was scared to death. - See, you took your clothes off. - You could hear it. - So, what I did is, I took my coat, and it was cold, 'cause it was like November, so I probably had like, more than one T-shirt on. Took all that off, took my boots off. And I dropped my underwear and jeans down to my ankles. I never kicked them off. So, from the ankles up, I'm completely naked. They checked me for a while. He missed one thing that was, I had, in my sock, it was a device, but, you know, so, I go, he passed me down, and I'm having that adrenaline dump, right? Everything's slow motion. I can feel my heart beating. My, my man parts felt like they were in my throat, you know? - And are they calling you a (beep) to get her inside? Are they calling you names and songs? - No, no, but during the talk, that's a good question, 'cause we, at least the way I was trained, you just don't want a vapor lock. You don't want to get the deer in the headlights, looks. At least keep talking. At least keep trying to find something. - Right. Get some information. - What are you doing, guys? What's his about? What's the big deal? - I did, I guess, what's going on? And there's like, hey, man, there's just some precautions, blah, blah, blah. And what he says to me, he goes, trust me, man. He goes, I like you a lot. He goes, but I've got my doubts too. He said, if somebody accused me of being a fed, I'd probably smash them in the F and mouth. And I said, I'm not, I like them, I said, I'm not happy. And he goes, I wouldn't be either. But what you can't see is, because we know each other, even though my words may be saying one thing, what my face is saying to close line is, tell me I'm okay. His facial expressions back to me were, it's okay. But I was, in fact, undercover, and I was wired. And if he found it, I don't know what's gonna happen. So, I pulled my pants back up. I think I'm putting my boots on, and he grabs a piece of clothing. And it had something in it. And he says, I'm not gonna find anything in here. I don't want to, like, some pictures of my old lady. And he laughs and he goes, and I go, I hope not. Now, I'm standing there, can't stand up straight. I'm on the wall. And I'm watching him need this piece of clothing with his hands. He's doing this. And I know, circa that year, what our equipment was and all that stuff, if he would have felt it. Now, he misses it. He looks right at it. He misses it. And even while he's searching it, I don't know, I do it, but you can hear me, because I'm just standing there and you can hear me go, 'cause I'm like, what am I gonna do? Right, so here's the thing. He misses it. He hands me back my stuff. I'm easily going to joking, because that's not only me, it's also a defense mechanism when you're scared, right? - They juggle my whole life. - Cracking a ride, cracking jokes, like, like I said, I'm glad I didn't wear white underwear, you know? And we go back into business. - And I just keep saying that, glad I didn't wear white, you just keep glitching that, right? - Yeah, glad I didn't wear a pointer. And I'm just like, what the fuck are you doing? - What's wrong with him? He's a robot. - Yeah, yeah. - Bring a chalco stain or whatever that guy's name was. - Chalco's got. - Chalco's got. - So, people always ask me, what would you have said if clothesline would have found it? And I said, well, I remember it like it was yesterday. It also helps with our teeth.
it all over the place and I still relive it all the day on town. So there's really little air room for air there as far as exaggerating and stuff. So I, or remember in it wrong, I, I said, man, I remember it like it was yesterday. Maybe my first response would have been, I don't know some pictures, if he said, what is this, maybe I would have said, I don't know, some pictures of you old lady as a joke because he already threw that line to me. You know, I'm going to find anything in here. The only other thing that I had in my head, and again, I remember like it yesterday, I would have looked at him and said, the gig is up. I'm an undercover FBI agent and we can, I can walk out of here and we can see each other in court or all hell is going to break loose. The problem is, is that would have been a bluff on my part because as far as I need every time I've been in that clubhouse, my cover team couldn't hear me, whether it's equipment, walls, whatever. I mean, it's 2026 and I've got first net and I can walk into a building and I can't get out, you know, and I'm like, I don't. So it's above my pay grade, but as far as I need, well, I mean, they had surveillance, you know, but, but as far as I need, they can never hear me that night at the end of the shift, you know, you go meet somewhere predetermined location and I'm turning over my recording equipment to the case team and whatever, maybe they're giving me more money for the next day or whatever and they do a debrief. Well, when I got there that night, what I found out was, is that the first two guys covering me were part of the main case team. It was a sergeant Higgin-Bottom from Massachusetts State Troopers, everybody called him Higgie and then Detective Cummings from Brockton PD. And because they had known me for a year and a half or a little more, whatever happened at that first interaction with Joe Dogs at the door and made them think something was up and they had pulled close enough for whatever they were able to hear everything when they heard me getting stripped. Of course, they can hear that I'm scared because they know my voice, right? They're radioing back to Boston saying they anybody now get down here and as far as the way I was told is everybody was coming blue lights and siren down there and they didn't hit it. They went ahead and they had a plan because they've been in that clubhouse on other law enforcement activity and they know how it's set up and they knew how that door was fortified. So their plan, they put their vest on everything and they're plan was if they felt like it was time to pull the trigger to save me or whatever, they were going to drive the van into the center block wall beside the door to kind of breach the wall. So you're standing there. That's what you're thinking. If he knows what's going on, that's what those are your two plans of action and they and they're out there waiting on and your case team is out there. Listen, is out there listening and there's help on the way. Yes. Okay. Because clothesline didn't find it and also because that case team, the Higgin Bottom and Cummings, they knew me and they didn't pull the trigger. They were like, hang on, he's still okay. He's still okay. So we go out that night and and it's me, Joe dogs and Scott town and I live it. I'm raising a hell, you know, and even Joe dogs is like, Tex, you got to understand, this has happened to other brothers, other people where everybody shows up and it's just, you know, we're the only people there and everybody else is an undercover. You know, and I played it off. I'm like, I'm like, who the hell would spend that kind of time and money and try to, you know, yeah, for sure. Besides us, you know, besides me. But I go back, I probably sleep maybe 30 minutes at night. I go and meet everybody. I think it was outside of IHOP. I hand out the radios and I tell them where we're going to go and it's pretty comical and recording because I say, all right, we're going back up to the Westgate Mall in Brockton and chocolate Scott starts bitching. He goes, man, I'll live right next to here. I could have slept another 40 minutes. Oh, yeah. And Joe dogs, Joe dog starts, he goes, you guys are the lazy, he goes, you guys, let me get it right. Yeah. He goes, you guys are the laziest bunch of damn criminals I've ever met my entire life, you know, and I'll even bust these. I'll go, hey, I thought I left my wife at home. Can you stop complaining, you know. Yeah, so we go, we do the deal and one truck pulls up. It's fake drugs. No, it's real. Yeah, it's real drugs. So I mean, there's smell in the weeds. You almost have a good budget up there then. Well, I don't know where the case team got it. It's probably evidence from another case. Got it. And it gets signed out. But can you imagine if we lost that FBI loses 50 kilos of cocaine? Are you kidding me? So, yeah, snipers are up and everything. So the trucks back up, the undercover's, Joe dogs on the truck, OB's on the truck, we're covering stuff. They're pulling surveillance, you know, and just like normal surveillance. I mean, they got people, I've been burnt. I've been burnt. There's a guy staring at me calm down, dude. Yeah. You know, and if a cop shows up, let us know we're going to pull the trucks away. And we pulled off the deal. And then I went and paid everybody. So y'all did the deal. Yeah, it went. It went across. They got to meet Manny. Joe dogs wanted to meet Manny, who of course was an undercover, but he is a Hispanic guy that did all kinds of cartel stuff. Shut up, Manny. Yeah. Shut up, Manny, man. Martin Suarez. He's actually got a book out there. Oh, wow. They just, and it's, it's, it's, it's really, Martin Suarez. Martin Suarez. Um, you do the deal. Yeah. And this is, uh, we get it the next day. And, uh, like I said, we do the deal. And then that, and I, maybe I slept a little bit, you know, I'm going to massage that dog. And then I fly home, and I get, I miss my flights. They're delayed, canceled, whatever. And then I go home to, uh, when I landed in McAllen, I would drove straight to the house. I brushed my teeth, changed my shirt, loaded up my daughters, my wife and my mother-in-law. And we went to the Rio Grande Valley FBI Christmas party for Laredo, Brownsville and McAllen offices. And I was Santa Claus for the kids. After being stripped in the basement at gun points about two nights earlier. Yeah. So, and I don't stop. So what, so what happens? Wow. If you fast forward a little bit, now we're doing all this stuff. We're still getting more things. We got the big dope deal. I'm getting trust here. During that case, a, uh, a president of the Hell's Angels was murdered, uh, riding down the road. We knew that it was a green truck with Florida plates. We knew that we had outlaws from Florida up there. And, uh, the case kept going. And eventually I end up down in Daytona at a world run. And by this point, I'm kind of a zombie. Um, because my ammo always was, I'm a workaholic. I get it honestly from my parents, but my, my ammo always was like, look, if I can be above average, or if I can, on the squad that I'm on as a case agent, or if I can have some good cases and good sources, maybe that less my management not be able to say no to me. Like, you know, hey, you're a top producer, Scott. So you can't say no, you can't go on that SWAT call out or that SWAT school or that undercover or that undercover school. Um, but what I was doing to myself is I was taking the warrior mentality, which I think is imperative for the line of work, the warrior mentality. Yeah, the warrior mentality. And I think that's imperative, but I was applying it to every situation in my life. So I was not taking days off because I didn't want management to get mad. I was not sleeping hardly at all. I got to the point to where I was drinking. I went to big energy drink. Um, but you were huffing them, huh? Well, no, what it was is I was drinking like a pot of coffee and taking hydroxy cuts with the fedron in them. And I was still falling asleep. So I get down to Daytona. We've got murders that have happened. We get, we've had sturgis where I arrived and the day I arrived, uh, the hell's angels shoot five outlaws point blank range. It was, I think it was two patched, one probate and sturgis that out. Yeah, and sturgis. And then, um, and then two, two, they would refer to as old ladies. And it was some serious wounds like people were paralyzed and stuff. Um, it's just dangerous. And I'm on a goal wing. Yeah. Uh, yeah. You know, uh, I believe they turned out, uh, okay. Um, but so they got all that going on. And now we're one, we're kind of winding down towards the end of the case. Uh, so I didn't know. You're still going, but I'm in Daytona. And again, by this time, here's my cocktail. I woke up one morning. I could still feel the whiskey and egg swishing in my belly. I felt like a piece of tram. Like, all right. This is it. I'm working out. So I did like an in-room workout, something like a P90X kind of deal. I'm doing push ups, sit up squats, burpees, mountain climbers. Uh, and, but before I did that, by this time, I wake up, I take anti-histamines, decongestants, hitting an inhaler, uh, which is also a vascular dilator, makes you shake and stuff, opens up your lungs. Then I drank two cups of coffee of the strongest coffee I can possibly make. And then I, uh, hit three hydroxy cuts with a federn in them. Yeah. So as I learned later on, from the. You're a damn jet skew. Well, from the, from what the doctors told me, they go, uh, Scott, that is a cocktail for an anxiety attack. And that's what happened. I started working out, and all that shit hit me. And I was so beat down, like I started hyperventilating. I mean, it's humid in this, it's Daytona, you know, but I'm in there, but whatever. I came up, and I forgot all about combat breathing. I forgot about, you know, some people call it, was it like four box breathing, same thing, you know, I forgot about a paper bag. I just, I turned this wide as your shirt and an undercover knocks on the door. He was the guy that was playing the truck driver. And it just, he sees me and I'm just pouring sweat out of every poor. Why does your shirt, my lips are all tight and he's like, are you okay? And I don't think so. So we start talking. What I should have done is said, I don't feel good. I think I'm heading home, but I didn't. I took a nap. I got up, Self-medicated, went back out with the outlaws. Mongols were there. Fights bring.
out all kinds of stuff and but when I flew home from that trip I didn't know it but my body was already done. They wanted to expand the case because the guy that was now went by the road named Hillbilly who I knew through the case and he liked me and I liked him. He was the southeast regional president at that point and they and they wanted me to come down to they wanted the Boston not to take the case down and for me to move to Florida and patch under Hillbilly dude I don't care if you meet and damn Sam Elliott from Mask, bro. You got to do it. I've always loved him as a biker about anything else but damn man to keep pushing yourself out there like that. Yeah well I went smart and I mean I love and I'm not judging you man. No I'm just saying I I lied to safeguard like I took the psychological test and I lied I knew I was exhausted I knew I didn't know how to relax anymore even because that's almost like I'm reading the story and it's like you know it's like oh man it's just that's harrowing it's harrowing and it reminds me of times that I think a lot of us I'm probably a lot of listeners can relate to when they just you know just this thing I got to keep going and at what cost. Doesn't matter what you could be a doctor you could be whatever. Yes for sure that's insane. You can put yeah you can you can you can wear yourself out so what happens is I go home I sleep the first day I probably slept 20 hours. I wasn't depressed I wasn't sick I know what they both feel like for the rest of the week I slept over 16 hours a day so come Friday I still love this guy I don't think he loves me anymore it is what it is but we were friends at that point and he calls me and my again country he's like he goes how you doing country and that was all he said and I said I'm not doing too good so for the next hour we talk on the phone I'm explaining to him everything's going on and he basically let me convince myself I need to call safeguard so I called and I need one of the psychologists personally and I called and I said hey I don't know what's going on man I'm 30 something years old I'm I'm crashing I don't know what's happening so they came out and did a own site in other words I didn't have to fly to them they flew to me they did the test I answered it honestly and I got put on time out but what they did is they said and by time out I mean no more undercover for at least six months but what they did is they said hey for the purpose for this case specifically we'll let you stay on the phone so I make a ruse I'd already told him that I got married so I make up a story that hey me and my wife are getting divorced her family's in El Paso I got to read I got to get this house finished I got to relocate her and the kids out there because I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror again if I didn't got it I mean you got you got father Scott town's 11 father $4 you got you know they're like they're like they're like oh yeah I would got it man I said but as soon as I get them there I'm coming north I'm sick of this heat so we just kept talking and during that there was one other guy that we didn't get but he was calling me and he was like he'd just gotten a prison recently and he was an outlaw and he's like hey man I heard about you know we'd met before Scott town introduced this but he's like I got a Hummer I got this $100,000 being W I need to get rid of and he starts talking about cocaine and he's like hey you know what kind of business I'm in I said I can maybe take a guess and he gets I'm into that magic powder and I said the white he said yeah I said cocaine yeah and he said yeah and he says how much can you get me basically a kilo for and I said and he said if you can get me a kilo at 18 a piece I got enough to buy 10 right now he had 180 grand ready to go and of course I call the case team and I go do you guys want me to pursue this and they say yeah friend though right well this guy I met he went like Scott town introduced me to him his name is Tim Sylvia not UFC Tim Sylvia but yeah but who is a friend but Tim Sylvia the outlaw and so what happens is is I broker the deal for my truck driver and another undercover who always just he made it always but by half of the case he would sit in the passenger seat and they go like I'm literally in my garage in McCall and I'm on the phone with Tim Sylvia and I'm on the phone with them I'm going he's over here and I'm guiding them in to meet each other when they meet each other you can hear the other undercover is talking even if you see the recording from the back of the semi truck you can even hear me on the phone they're calling the truck driver calls me he's like text like hey what's going on man we're calling Tony hey Tony man he's like yeah he goes I'm here and he goes I'm with you guys what's your name again you're Tim Sylvia he's telling me it's big Timmy I go okay and he says we're going back and forth he goes he wants to talk to you so Tim gets on the phone and I say hey you got the same vehicles yeah I'd agree to pay him 21 grand for the vehicles that I was buying from him stolen and he says I said when are you going to report the BMW stolen because I had a tracker on he said Friday I said can you make it Saturday I'm just trying to make it real right I said can you make it Saturday because we want more day and it'll be in Mexico for sure and he said absolutely so then I get back on the phone with the undercover and the undercover says how much must I pay him I said 21 grand so when they go to load the vehicles on the stolen vehicles on the truck Tim hits them and says can you guys get 10 kilos and 18 of the piece and they said yes and that's how we ended the case I was drawing up diagrams of all the club houses and houses I'd been in for all the SWAT teams that were going to be hitting it and stuff which was nerve-wracking to me because I'm a tactical guy and I'm like well what if I get this wrong and somebody gets hurt and then also my Scott and myself with another guy had were creating our own mutters like a club called the Rochester few it had already been approved by the president the national president of the outlaws to be the number one support club for the outlaws in the Northeast all I had to do was go back up one more time and I'd have got my cut but you know it is what it is yeah you were also you were done yeah I was done what even being real it would have been cool yeah you know you guys oh yeah for sure but damn but so the whole thing's insane so we're taking the only case I'm actually at an undercover school teaching I wasn't there I'm pretty sure safeguards said I couldn't go and this when you're just doing stuff on the found still okay yeah and how do you get to the end this is it okay because they said they were going to deliver the 10 kilos that's going to be a reversal and that's going to be the first arrest right so when they show up when Tim Silvia shows up to deliver the hummer and to get whatever SWAT teams going to take him down right he's got the money and all this stuff SWAT teams going to take him down and that starts all the arrest happening so I can't tell you what time it was in Nevada where I was at versus what time it was I don't know about three hours behind or whatever from Massachusetts but I go back to my room and these are long nights at the UC school like I told you I go back to my room and my phone's chirping and I listen to this message from Scott town and I chirping him up and I go hey what's up and he says he's all raspy boys he goes hey I just want you to know somebody just call me your truck drivers Tony and out of the dude and big Scotty big T big Timmy they got locked up and I'm like well okay and he goes I just wanted to let you know and I said well you know they're not up there for something for me I said but sometimes they do these things on the side for themselves he said listen I'm gonna go to something to effect it like this he said listen I'm gonna go to I'm gonna get up I'm gonna get showered up and I'm gonna find out what's going on I'm gonna call you back and I said okay and our last words to each other he said I love you brother and I said I love you too and about 40 minutes later a SWAT team at his house and he went to prison they all played guilty give a talk to him again it's very possible I can either confirm or deny okay but since since the New York Times bestseller and being on a podcast or two yeah the bond was real the bond was real was real like how happy is the ending like I'm just finding like it's pretty good so far is it yeah pretty good yeah really good so you guys still communicate often mm-hmm yeah like in what type of manner do you feel like call me whatever I will tell you that chocolate sky started troubling me and he'll probably get a kick out of this he did yeah he started all of us so you know how somebody finds you on Instagram and they start liking all your stuff and it's like from six months prior but you start getting all these dings ding ding ding like they liked you're real like you're well it was like this guy sucks screw you yeah chocolate skies like that so he's so he's got to be chocolate Scott so I'm it I always wish I knew him actually so here's the thing I he's like he's like hitting me with like yeah you so you have this you know this and the other and I saw and it was like I could kind of see the picture but I saw that it was doom 666 and I'm like the hell is it I don't respond to negative stuff but I'm like because most of the time you're arguing with an algorithm anyway it's some AI you're arguing again it's not a real person yeah some but I click on it and open it up and it's chocolate Scott and and for his Instagram it says if you Scott pain you big bitch so really but he's got a right to be pissed I know man but I could I giggled because I could totally see him high laughing type and that's right yeah but the last thing he put out there that that before I'm blocking as he put it actually validated me because a lot of people are like oh you're making this up I'm like dude pull pull the court records pull the reports it's in there the recordings that happen I don't want you to tell you I'm not making it up it's there
But he put he put he would go he found another one he goes I've seen this guy naked in the basement not much there. All right, so I so wanted to respond because the first thing I was going to say is you're still pinching me naked in the basement from 2006 Yeah, must have been tough in prison. Second thing I would have said is I don't find you or close line attractive The third thing I would have said is it was very very cold in that basement Hey, and it's it's a Massachusetts. Yeah, and the fourth thing I would have said is I thought I was getting ready to die And that's a whole new level of shrinkage the last thing I was concerned about is what I look like naked, so I can't even stay erect around them broken glass You know, I hear a wind a shout-out dude. I won't get hard for a month But just who I am my dad was the same way. Yeah Did towns go to jail? Yeah, yeah, we pretty much we pretty much dismantled the whole Taunting chapter. I don't know if it's back up, but yeah, we pretty much got everybody. Have you seen him since he went in no, no How long will he be in for he's out? Oh, he's out now. Yeah, he's out. She haven't seen him since he got out either. Mm-hmm. Okay. Got it No, how long has he been out for? I don't know. I don't know if he did six or eight And let's just say I think we arrested I think we took that case down in 2008 got it, but Let's see if it says the outlaw is MC taunting chapters no longer active having been effectively dismantling a major federal sweep Woo-hoo. There you go Did you get to miss a lot of things? Yeah, like a lot of family stuff. Yeah, there's a lot about like birthdays I did pretty good with that, but I missed like some recitals and stuff like that. Yeah, or Father's Day You know because it might be putting on the undercover school They might be being on the on the case because like I said you kind of go with the case takes you If you get an open-end to go to Sturgis with the I mean, yeah, that's yeah No, I mean, it's all it's just so it's so fascinating. You know because life itself. You're kind of We're all trying to be ourselves and and then to go into life and then go into another life kind of, you know Like an other exist, you know like yeah, my big my big I guess my my Clark Kent walking into a phone booth and coming out of Superman Is I I have a cross on my necklace and before I was going to cover I'd take the cross off and it either be it would either be a Norse, you know like Thor's hammer, but for most of it it was just a skull But that was kind of my thing like I'd go back in I'd take the skull off but the cross back on it was kind of like me saying Try and try and to leave it there and now I'm scout again, but Truthfully the the job creeped in all the time. I mean, how's it not going to when I'm on a undercover call and my daughter's chasing me through the house And I'm trying not to let her hear me cuss because I'm on the phone with a bad guy, you know Sure Are you ever before you guys got are you ever worried about somebody coming back from the past something come back to haunches It could happen. Yeah, um retaliation Yeah, you know, I'm not trying to be a tough guy or nothing like that, but I do have a belief system and for me I mean, I wouldn't want any family members or anything like that to be In fear usually for me your best defense is a good offense. That's me like it just being a uniform cop How many people in your town do you think you arrest in a year and do you I mean they're not all like fell in a chart They back out. It's good point. So you how many times as a uniform cop do you go to the mall or to a movie theater to the grocery store and you run into people that you Like it might have been somebody had to fight You know, so I never talk about that. I just walk right up to him. That's me. I see him when I go if they're a fair I bow and I'm not even them to plot. I'm just gonna go right up and go good game I know I'm gonna be like brother. I went. How are you doing? When did you get out how's the family man? Hey, are you clean right now? Are you good? How are you doing isn't as long as you're on that up and you know Straighten arrow on the right path. I'll help you and I have I've actually people that I put in jail that I infiltrated put in jail But but they've taken a turn for the better I at their sentence an I wrote an acknowledgement letter or a letter for their character Hey, man, so they and they got probation instead of going to jail So that's not up. I mean now it's you know, it's a if you get for me for the most part what I have found Because I do really make friendships. I mean you're creating relationships You're you betraying them a little. I mean you're gonna be betraying them if you're undercover. Yeah, but It's almost like the old bugs bunny carting You got the sheep dog and you got the coyote and they it's Ralph and Sam and they clock in in the morning and all day The coyote is trying to still sheep and all day the shit the sheep dogs beating the crap I'm trying to get and at the end of the day they clock out See you in the morning Sam. See you in the morning Ralph. It's just You know, I've been told I've been told this if you were a biker and And you were a part of the club and you snitch they'd never forgive me, but I was just doing my job So you see that a lot of professional snitch. I'm not snitch I'm not I'm you know, I'm a bonded law enforcement officer and We have reports of you doing criminal stuff and I infiltrated you and or somebody did and we found evidence of that criminal stuff if you're not doing Anything wrong. Don't worry about it. Yeah Do do they ever oh just this is kind of like a question almost like the movies do they ever bring retired agents in for like You know, they're trying to get you back out there for one more show. Yeah, yeah, but you would be if you're a retired agent Because you're retired now. Yeah, yeah, I mean you could come back in as a source. That's a whole different ball game though But they're never like scar we got to wheel you out one more time here, you know, not now I'm overt now, man. Yeah, you know, I mean Yeah, people know now. Yeah, no, you may ever tell us you like Matt Damon. You know, what is a matter of fact the other day somebody did And as soon as they pulled up the picture, I went bang, you know, yeah Who would have fun? No, I mean, no, I mean it could happen, but once I was done. I mean obviously, I mean you do roll install magazine and then this and yeah Would you do it again? Absolutely. Absolutely, man, but you know, okay They always say man, you'll know when it's time to retire. I thought I was gonna work to 57 I thought I'd be the undercover coordinator for the state of Tennessee and maybe I could extend you know because That's a skill set that is that a lot of people don't have, you know In the bureau as opposed to being a tactical instructor. I mean, there's a lot of tactical instructors But I thought I was gonna say to 57 but after the base case I was like man I had to get the back lumbar I got a lumbar fusion A week and a half after the lumbar fusion. I got Tammy talking about PVC pipes and everything else in my truck And you just start thinking she loves to torture people. Yeah, I know. I like torture. You like torture. I like torture I love you need somebody to torture you call me. I swear. I know that towards me But the thing is is I was 48 going on the 50 How many more oh how many more bait it like I can't go I mean if okay now I'm gonna look like a pedophile Oh, there's an old dude Buying beer for young boys and and he's teaching them why it's right now I'm not but how can I infiltrate 17-year-olds right? You know and you just start realizing Just one day hitting me and it was right after the base case. It was in February We took it down January of 2020 February of 2020. I'm in Phoenix, Arizona We're putting on training. We're training online covered employees for domestic terrorism and I don't know what we were discussing about I don't know what it was. I know it was my birthday But I just this everywhere. I'm in feeling hit me in the face like a brick I can't remember what we're talking about but I remember like everything just kind of going Comment down and me saying this in my head. I'm satisfied with my career. Yeah, never said it before Not saying I've done everything but if I do something now, I'm just starting right back here But I'm like, I think holy cow. I'm okay. I think I'm okay. Hey, man. Yeah well Scott pain man Boom big country, medium country. Thank you so much for coming in man Code name at pale horse. That's his book How I went undercover to expose America's Nazis and the I was gonna say in the paperbacks out now, sorry Oh nice, and the paperback is out now. Yeah, true. Yes, true. Thank you so much for for being here today with this man Thanks for sharing your stories Yeah, dude, what a fascinating Existence you've had so far, man We appreciate your time brother. Thank you so much. Give our best to your family man and I'll do yeah It's got pain. Thank you, bro. Thank you, man Oh, but when I reach that ground I'll share this piece of mind. I found I can feel it But it's gonna
Podcast Summary
Key Points:
Scott Payne, a retired FBI special agent with 28 years in law enforcement, discusses his career, including undercover work with motorcycle gangs, drug traffickers, and white supremacist groups, as detailed in his book "Co-Name Pale Horse."
Payne emphasizes the importance of training and stress inoculation, recounting a friend's death due to lack of tactical training, and explains the physical and psychological effects of adrenaline dumps.
He describes his path from local police work in South Carolina to the FBI, including the rigorous hiring process with tests, polygraphs, and background checks, and training at Quantico.
Undercover work involved developing informants, creating believable backstories, and adapting to various roles, with challenges like avoiding romantic entanglements and ensuring weapons don't trace back to law enforcement.
Payne shares a case in McAllen, Texas, involving alien smuggling and extortion, where he made critical decisions to rescue a kidnapped child, highlighting the emotional toll of such work.
He discusses the "one percent" biker culture and his two-year undercover operation with the Outlaws, noting the importance of sticking close to his true identity for consistency.
Payne critiques operations like Fast and Furious, where guns were allowed to reach cartels, leading to deaths, and underscores the need for ethical conduct in law enforcement.
Summary:
Scott Payne, a retired FBI special agent with 28 years in law enforcement, shares insights from his extensive career, which included undercover work with dangerous groups like motorcycle gangs, drug cartels, and white supremacists. His book "Co-Name Pale Horse" details these experiences. Payne began in local policing in South Carolina, where he was drawn to undercover work, eventually joining the FBI after passing rigorous tests and training at Quantico.
He emphasizes the importance of training and stress inoculation, noting how adrenaline dumps affect decision-making and the need for muscle memory in high-pressure situations. Payne recounts a tragic case where a colleague died due to insufficient training, highlighting systemic issues like budget cuts prioritizing training. In undercover operations, he stresses the importance of authentic backstories and staying close to his true identity to maintain consistency over long periods, such as a two-year operation with the Outlaws motorcycle gang.
He also discusses developing informants, the challenges of avoiding romantic entanglements, and ensuring operational safety, like verifying weapons don't trace back to law enforcement. A notable case involved rescuing a kidnapped child in Texas, where he made a critical split-second decision. Payne also critiques controversial tactics like Operation Fast and Furious, which allowed guns to reach cartels, leading to deaths.
Throughout, he underscores the emotional toll of the job, the importance of ethical conduct, and the need for better support for first responders.
FAQs
The guest is Scott Payne, a retired FBI special agent with 28 years in law enforcement, including undercover work with motorcycle gangs, drug traffickers, cartels, and white supremacist groups. He authored the book 'Co-Name Pale Horse: How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis.'
Payne was drawn to connecting with people, which he demonstrated in high school by fitting into various crowds. He was also influenced by mentors like Gary Ward, a strong former marine and narcotics officer, who inspired him to pursue undercover work.
An adrenaline dump is a sudden release of epinephrine that triggers fight-or-flight mode, increasing breathing and redirecting blood flow to muscles, heart, lungs, and brain. It can cause time dilation and auditory exclusion, and officers may experience multiple dumps in stressful situations, though physical fitness helps recovery.
The process included a phase one test with math and psychological questions, a polygraph, thorough background checks, physical fitness tests, and interviews. Payne noted that honesty was critical, as lying could disqualify candidates from testifying or building cases.
Training lasted about five months and included legal classes, tactics in Hogan's Alley, firearms training, and physical conditioning like the two-mile run and the Sheldon Run. Payne enjoyed forensics classes, especially those on DNA and genetic genealogy for solving cold cases.
Payne began undercover work at the Sheriff's Office after becoming a narcotics investigator and completing undercover techniques classes. His first assignments involved street-level drug buys, like purchasing crack rocks, before advancing to more complex FBI operations.
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