#67 Jenna

[music] Push again. [music] Jackie? Hi honey, why are you calling me the first time? Well, you know, it's the first episode of the new season, season 10, and I thought it might be a fun way to mix things up a little. Sorry, I'm eating a bowl of soup. Where are you right now? I'm at a nursing home. So you're having some nursing home cafeteria soup? No, my own soup. No, no. You brought it with you? I bring it in a thermos. Yeah, it's a storm outside. I always carry a thermos of soup. Do you wear it around your neck like a St. Bernard? I'm not going to laugh because I've been in a public place. Okay. Call me back, yeah. Goodbye. Oh, take me up some heart candy from the gift shop. [music] From Pushkin Industries, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, Jenna. Right after the break. This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. Welcome, global here. My new book, The American Way of Killing, investigates America's gun violence crisis. Why is the richest country in the world plagued by such lethal violence? Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape. I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas, and examine why the U.S. has never quite understood its own problem, and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Get The American Way of Killing at Pushkin.fm/audiobooks or at Audible. Spotify or wherever audio books are sold. My girls' rooms are here. It's so neat. Why is this room? She's got a cello and a ukulele. She would correct me, and she would say it's an ukulele, mama. If love means doing anything for your family, then Jenna's kids truly know the meaning of love. For what, if not love, is listening to hours of amateur ukulele, or ukulele? The childhood Jenna's giving her kids is quite different from the one she had. But Jenna's mom would have done anything for Jenna too. Oftentimes, though, there wasn't a lot she could do. Growing up, it was just the two of them. Jenna and her mom. And my mom was incredibly lovely. She absolutely loved me, and she also had paranoid schizophrenia. This meant periods of instability. Times when Jenna and her mom lived in cars or homeless shelters. It meant cooking them both dinner when her mother was having an episode. And importantly, it meant always being on the lookout for child protective services. Anytime I saw anyone in a nice outfit or driving a nice car, I would hide. One of my very first memories was being physically taken away from my mom by CPS workers. How old were you, do you think? I think I was like four or five. What do you remember of it? I remember the feeling of panic and terror. I remember the look of my mother's face. I remember the physical pulling away. That separation lasted a few weeks. Jenna's biggest fear was being separated for good. In the second grade, that fear came true. Jenna was in school when she heard her name being called over the PA. She was told to go to the principal's office. When she got there, a social worker was waiting. The social worker told her she wouldn't be returning home. Instead, she was to be placed in long-term foster care. Jenna knew there must have been some incident with her mom. But no one would tell her what. Eight years old, like adults are just not interested in telling you anything. And I got into a stranger's car and drove having no idea who I was going to meet. Do you remember if you had any belongings with you? My backpack. From school. My backpack and the clothes that I was wearing. The social worker drove further and further into rural Georgia. I remember going through my head of, well, maybe that's going to be my new house as we were driving by houses. Or maybe that one's going to be my house. I hope it's nice. Finally, they came to a farmhouse by a pond. A tall blonde woman emerged and introduced herself as Rhonda Grisel. Rhonda would be Jenna's new foster mom. Jenna says the first thing Rhonda did was sit her down on the screen and porch to talk. The only thing that I remember about that conversation was that Rhonda turned to me and said, "Is it okay if we call you Jenny?" And it was a question, but you know how parents or adults ask a kid a question, but it's not really a question. I think that I was very aware that this was not up to me. Jenny was close to Jenna, but it wasn't her name. No one had ever called her Jenny. Here she was entering a strange new home with nothing much but her name. And now, she was losing that too. Jenna became a foster daughter to Rhonda and her husband Eddie Wayne. And a foster sister to their three biological children. A toddler, a preteen girl, and a boy that was about Jenna's age. And how did you fit in with the Grisels? Well, let's start with the appearance. I was absolutely not like them. You know, the game, like one of these things doesn't look like the other, one of these things doesn't belong. Everyone else was blonde-haired and blue-eyed. And I was this dark-haired kid with dark eyes that bore no resemblance. And so there was certainly a lot of eyebrows raised in public places like who was this kid? Her new brother Cody made it known that they'd had foster children before her. In fact, only a few months earlier they'd fostered a girl around Jenna's age. And her name? Also Jenna. Jenna 1.0 had bullied Cody. And so he was understandably wary of this new Jenna's arrival. When Rhonda sat her down on the porch that very first day and turned her into Jenny, maybe that had been Rhonda's attempt at wiping the slate clean. Jenna cried herself to sleep most nights. She missed her mom and only got to see her during their weekly supervised visits, which often went poorly. So poorly that eventually her mom's parental rights were legally terminated. And it felt like I was grieving her as if she had died, because at that point I would not be allowed to see her again until I was an adult. With her mother's loss of custody, the grizzles house became Jenna's new home. She grew close to her foster dad, Eddie Wayne, a high school teacher with a warm presence and a big booming voice. Eddie Wayne taught Jenna how to fish, and Rhonda cooked her delicious meals every night. And that was very, very different from my experience. My experience was like cereal or like cheese puffs. And I was being exposed to homemade fried chicken and fried okra and green beans. Life was filled with vacations, boating visits to the grandparents, new friends, birthdays and Christmases, board games and family dinners. In this way, two and a half years passed. For all intents and purposes, the grizzles were now her family. So it came as no surprise when one day, while the other kids were playing by the lake, Eddie Wayne called Jenna over. I just remember this very distinctly that my foster father brought me downstairs to the basement to have this conversation, which was we would like to adopt you. Would you like that? Would you want that? And of course I said yes. It was official. Jenna was going to be a grizzle. But that never happened. So what happens next is my mom. She had mental illness, but she was not dumb. She was very clever person. Jenna's mom had somehow figured out where Jenna was going to school. And from there, she found out Jenna's address. How she did that I don't know. What she does know is that in the aftermath of her mom's discovery, something changed at the grizzles. They decide that it's just simply not safe for me to stay with them anymore. Jenna's future was being yanked away from her. She wasn't going to be adopted. Instead, she was being kicked out. And this all happened in a matter of days. The way in which I left the home was so unemotional. Like there was never like, this is unfair. You were never able to say to them, but wait a minute, what happened to that conversation we had? You said you were adopting me. Right. I never had that conversation with them. And the last day I was there, I was just kind of like packed my stuff. Like no one tried that that last day was like, do you want to go take a bath and like the jacuzzi tub? It's like the last time you're going to get to that was said to you. Over the years, Jenna kept up with the grizzles lives on Facebook. She even saw the grizzles a couple of times in person, once at their grandmother's funeral and another time at their daughter's wedding. Did they still call you Jenny? Yeah, they to this day called me Jenny. At the wedding, Jenna remembers Eddie Wayne greeting her by saying, we never should have let you go. But Rondo was quick to jump in and say that it all worked out for the past. And Jenna largely agrees she ended up with a family called the parkers. The parkers gave her a good home filled with a lot of love. But at the same time, she feels like it all worked out for the best is an easy thing to say in retrospect that as far as epilogues go, it's missing something. Jenna still doesn't understand how the grizzles were able to give her up so easily, especially since she saw the lengths they went to for their eldest son Cody. As an example, she tells me about the time their neighbors began building chicken houses and how because of Cody's allergies, the whole family relocated. For the sake of their son, they picked up and they moved. And as I got older, I began to ask myself why couldn't they have moved for me. For Jenna, this resulted in her always feeling like she just wasn't good enough. Not pretty enough, not smart enough, just not lovable enough. I didn't matter. I just didn't matter to them. There's got to be, I know there's more to it, but I carried those stories into my teenage years, into all of my dating relationships, into my marriage, into my divorce. I've been carrying this weight of not belonging and not being enough for nearly 30 years. I also lost my son in 2020 to heart condition. Oh, I'm so sorry. And so, thank you. He was born with hypotlastic left heart syndrome in 2018. I think people around me, the way that they were responding to this devastating thing, you know, it's like, oh, you know, everything happens for a reason. And I'm like, well, fuck your reasons. I don't care. Everything happens for a reason. It all works out for the best. For Jenna, the platitudes are a cop out. I think sometimes things just happen and they're really bad and you do your best to take a pile of horse shit, frankly, and turn it into a compost pile, which may be later turned into a garden, but that doesn't change the fact that the initial dump was horse shit. Jenna's now almost 40. Her biological mother has long since passed away and she's a mother herself. At long last, she finally feels ready to have the conversation with the grizzles that she couldn't have as a kid. It would be helpful for me to know what was going through their minds as all of this was unfolding. How is it possible to want a future with someone as your kid, but not want it enough? What happened? Why did the grizzles give her up so easily? Why didn't they fight for her? Jenna wants answers, but she doesn't want to ask the questions alone. I also think that you may be able to ask questions in a way that allow them more comfort to answer, because I mean, these are questions that feel very kind of accusatory if they're asked in the wrong way. And so I agree to accompany Jenna and help pose those questions the right way, but first, a question for you. Do you like deals? Then put on your bargain bib and open up for the bargain choo-choo, loaded up with boxcar after boxcar after boxcar of the biggest, fattest, juiciest deals you've ever savored. Welcome Gladwell here, my new book The American Way of Killing investigates America's gun violence crisis. Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the US has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. With the American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm/audiobooks or at audible, Spotify, or wherever audio books are sold. Jenna sends Rhonda in any way in a Facebook message, asking if they'll speak with her about that time. I would love the chance to share what that experience meant to me as a foster kid she writes, and equally to ask questions in here how you experienced it as foster parents. She signs the message, not Jenny, but Jenna, was that a decision? Yeah, it really was. I realized that I've spent all of my life pretzeling myself into circumstances that are comfortable to others, and I wanted to make myself comfortable. Only 30 minutes after sending the message, Jenna receives a response from Rhonda. It said, "Dearest Jenna," she referred to you back as Jenna. Yeah, that's the very first time that's ever happened. We would be happy to meet with you at any time. Great to hear from you, love Rhonda. So how did that feel? Immediately exciting. And then I don't know, there's like a whooshing, maybe like I'd been holding a breath for a while, and I got to release it in that moment. And now I just like want to, can we just teleport everybody there? And through the magic of podcasting, we kind of can. Your car is very neat. Well, I cleaned it for you. Really? Yes, because my kids are absolute monsters in this car. From Jenna's house, it's an hour and a half drive through rural Georgia to the grizzles. They're definitely going to the deep south right now. It's a ride ablaze with southern flair, waffle houses brimming with grits, a hair salon showcasing this chuvious wordplay called "grateful head." And in the middle of a strip mall. A polygraph service? Yes, you can get your nails done and find out if your boyfriend's cheating at the same time. For the uninitiated, truck balls or truck nuts spelled with a Z are genitalia that one hangs from the hitch of one's truck. Inso doing one makes one's entire truck, or we we like, or dingling like if you're south of the mason digs in. When I was back in the dating pool, there was some telltale science that we were not going to work out, and swinging balls is definitely one of them. Yeah, well it's really amazing, they're really sensitive and sweet. If you put balls on your truck, I don't think any of that can be true. I'm going to make a mental note of this. We do an episode where we find the most sensitive, wonderful man who has truck balls. All right, we are three minutes away. All right. How are you feeling? Good. I'm starting to get in that little like fit in my stomach feeling, like butterflies. The grizzles have moved since the time Jenna lived with them. Their new place is right on the water, tucked in among the trees. All right, here we are. Okay. Great. Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the U.S. has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Get the American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm/audiobooks or at audible, Spotify, or wherever audio books are sold. - Oh, good. - Eddie Wayne greets us at the door. - So this is Jonathan. - How you doing, Jonathan? - It's been about 14 years since Jenna last saw the grizzles. - Hi, gosh, how you doing? - Ronda merges from upstairs. She gives Jenna a hug and joins Eddie Wayne on the couch. Jenna and I settle in on chairs across from them. - Okay, well, I just wanna say first of all, you guys were so quick to say yes to this. - Surprise that you were like, what is this about? And like, who were these people? - Yeah, we pretty much, whatever you want, you were always very special to us. - And so we get into it. Ronda begins by telling us about the first time she ever saw Jenna. - I thought you were a little really, really pretty child. Very pretty child. She was a little timid, but that's understandable. You know, most foster children are. They're stuck in this house with these people and they don't know, strangers, but just sweet child, very sweet child. - Just a little old kid. Maybe somebody look at her, has about it. - Yeah. - While Jenna was the only one to stay longer than six months, Eddie and Ronda fostered nine kids in total. - Brittany and Justin. - That's what I thought. - And then we had. - As they begin to run through the list of children they took in over the years, something funny happens. - Was Samantha next? - Yeah, I think so. - We had one that was a challenge. We had Samantha. - It turns out I've already heard about Samantha. The foster kid that Cody had trouble with, but in the version I heard, Samantha had a different name. - I don't know why I had it in my head that Samantha, Samantha's name was Jenna. - No. Yeah, her name was Samantha. - Jenna isn't sure why she's had this wrong for so long, but she covers up her misconception with a quick working theory. - No, you know what it is? I think what it was was Samantha as a sort of doppelganger. - Samantha was the same age as Jenna. Samantha even looked like Jenna. They were both dark-haired, dark-eyed girls and a family of blondes. And Samantha's getting kicked out represented Jenna's worst case scenario. - It sounds like it's a subconscious thing that she just don't be her, don't be her, don't be her. - Yeah, don't be her. - But if Samantha's name was Samantha, then why was Jenna's name changed to Jenny in the first place? - We just always counter Jenny. And I don't know why. I can't even remember why. I remember being on the front porch and you asked me if I'd like to be called Jenny. And I thought, well, I wasn't sure if I said no, if I would get to stay, so I said yes. I do remember thinking you looked to me like a Jenny. - Jenna becoming Jenny hadn't been done for reasons good or bad. It hadn't been done for much of any reason at all. Eventually, Jenna inches the conversation away from her entrance into their home to the touchier subject of her departure. - Anyway, I don't know if you remember this, but we were in the basement one day, it was just you and me, and you asked me if I wanted to be adopted. - Yeah, yeah. - You remember that? - Mm-hmm. - I was happy about it. - We had, we were fixing to start. - We had discussed it, that's what our plan was. - We had been talking about it, and yeah. - It seemed like a good time, get a little feedback. Then I went and told her that hey, I think Jenny wouldn't mind it. - Yeah. - Yeah, that was our plan till your mother threw a wrench in everything. - Her mother found her, and that's why they had to move her. - Jenna had never known exactly how her mother had found her. According to Rhonda though, it was all because of a shirt, a school t-shirt that Jenna wore during one of her supervised visits with her mom. Rhonda explains the domino chain of mistakes. First, Rhonda sent Jenna off that morning in a t-shirt with the school's logo on it. When the social worker picked Jenna up, she noticed the shirt, considered stopping to buy a new one, but ultimately didn't. During the visit, Jenna's mom saw the school's name on the shirt. And when she later lost custody, she was so desperate to get Jenna back, that she showed up at the school where the school secretary gave her the grizzles address. - And what's so bad about it, a week before that, I had actually had a personal conversation with her. - You do not give our address, our phone number, our information to anyone, and I personally had that conversation with her, and she gave it out, if it hadn't been for that. You probably would've been with us forever. - But just because Jenna's mom had found their address, why send Jenna away? It turns out there was more to the story. - Your mother, she was threatening Cody. If you knew that. - I didn't know that. She was threatening Cody and she was threatening Wayne, but that didn't bother us. So she was threatening to kill both of them. And we could take a chance on Wayne, then phase us, but we couldn't take a chance on Cody. - I had a lot of people on the kill me. - We couldn't, you know, Cody was way off. - Yeah. I mean, we had police monitored our home, and the school was in lockdown, I don't know if you knew that. - No. - He was nervous. You know, in a way, it was a decision we had to make between Cody and Jenna. You know, I guess, in the long run, I had to choose my own child. And you know, I don't mean to be hurtful with that at all. - Well, the decision was, Jenny would have a chance going to another home, but if your son was dead, he's dead. And I was also choosing whether his mental state too. - Jenna takes in what Eddie and Ronda are saying. She then offers this about the family that adopted her, the parkers. - With the parkers, we had a similar situation. One of the foster kids' parents found out, and we did go into a bit of a lockdown. And it was scary. I remember being scary for us as well. So I definitely understand like the psychological fear that really kind of each you, like what's gonna happen next. - Jenna's offering this story in sympathy, letting Eddie Wayne and Ronda know that she understands their fear because she'd gone through something similar with the parkers. The difference, though, is that the parkers kept the child. So with the story, what I'm also hearing is Jenna telling the grizzles that there might have been a different path, one in which they all stayed together. (gentle music) - For years, Jenna has been telling herself this hurtful story about not being important enough to the grizzles. If her hope has been to learn that this hurtful story isn't true, that isn't what's happening. Instead, she's learning it was true. Even though they were said to adopt her, she didn't mean as much to them as their biological son. Jenna raises the difference in her and Cody's status, citing the incident about the chickens and Cody's allergies that stayed with her all these years. - The story I told myself was, Cody had an issue and he moved, and the logical step for me was that I wasn't worthy enough to move. - Yeah. - I kinda carried that with me. - I follow that. - I don't think it downed on me at the time, but I did later think we should've just moved. I didn't think it through as well as I should have, I guess. And you know, you went to the raise. - After leaving the grizzles, but before being adopted by the parkers, Jenna lived with a family called the raise. The grizzles engineered the move to keep Jenna in their lives even after her departure. The raise were a family that attended the same churches the grizzles and Jenna was friends with their daughters. With Jenna being moved to the raise, she could at least get to see the grizzles at church. But for Jenna, the new arrangement meant that every week while seated in a different row with a different family, she had to watch the grizzles from afar. Every week for six months, she sobbed in her pew. - It was like I had died, but I was a ghost and I got to see you guys living your life. - Yeah. - And I wasn't a part of it anymore. I felt like you guys were just fine without me. - Yeah. There was many Sundays that I just wanted to absolutely tear you from the raise and say, come home. I mean, most Sundays, I would walk in and she would be standing in the door and she would just grab me. And that was terrible. It was awful. It was just heart-wrenching. - Did it ever get easier? - No. - You know, it just never did. - No. - Yeah. Every Sunday was torture. It was. Got to have church crying, it was a Sunday. - I can see the Jenna's surprised. She'd never had any indication that Rhonda had feelings about any of this at all. To that, she asks about that very last day spent at their house. - I remember it not being very emotional. Like, we didn't cry. - Did we cry? - I don't think so, but I think I wouldn't let myself cry. I mean, in front of you. - Yeah. - Is that me? - You can't take cry. - Yeah, I cry. And when she left, I cried very much. So, yeah, I just, I didn't want her to, you know, see me upset, I guess, which probably was not a good idea, you know. I mean, it wasn't. - It wasn't a lot to see you. - No, it wasn't a lot to see you. And it was extremely heart-wrenching decision. Yes. I do have regrets. I very much have regrets. And I still, at times, you know, I think, well, you know, you should just judge through, you know. - You still feel that way. - At times, yeah. Yeah. - Have you Eddie ever felt those feelings? - No, not really. - On this point, Jenna takes exception. - I'm gonna call you on that because I remember, it was the day before Laura's wedding, and I walked in, I believe it was this door. - Probably. - You did, you did. - And the first thing you said to me was, "Never should've let you go." - Well, yeah, I mean, I guess everybody has your grits. - Eddie Wayne's concession is small, and it doesn't last. - But as far as the decision, it was just what we had to do. As far as your grit, when I have regrets, it's when I do something I know is really, really wrong. - If love means doing anything for your family, in Eddie Wayne's eyes, Jenna just never made the cut. (somber music) - We love you. - Yeah, I'm gonna give you a hug. - Yeah, give me a good huger. Oh, yeah. - I love you, sweetheart. Always, William, you will always be very special to us. (somber music) - I'm sorry, I just want to take a breath. - Yeah, yeah. - That was a lot. - Back in the car, Jenna grapples with contradictory emotions. In some ways, she's feeling better, but in other ways, she's left feeling worse, especially concerning the choice that was made between her and Cody. - Yeah, it really was between me and him. 'Cause I was hoping that that was mostly in my head. - And so, she's still left with that feeling that the grizzles wanted her as their kid, just not enough. And honestly, Eddie surprised me. I thought he would be softer. And the fact that he was so firm about that it wasn't a bad decision. I don't know, that's hard to hear. - First time was seeing her walk at the glass and we're meeting in a conference room. - This is Jenna's adoptive mom, Pam Parker. Here she is talking with me and Jenna about the first time she ever laid eyes on Jenna. - I just was taken with her and it was just enough. I don't know what it was, it was just the Lord. It was just an odd, I was just drawn to her. - Pam and her husband, Dean, have two biological children. And after Jenna, they adopted four more kids. - One of the things they said to me, and they said to every foster kid that came through their doors was this is the end of the line. You either go home to your parents, which we're gonna be so happy if you do, or we're gonna take you in forever. But you don't have to worry about going anywhere else. - Wow, that's quite a promise. - Mm-hmm, and they held true. They never sent any kid away. - Do you remember actually saying that, Pam? - No. - But it was our, we did not want to be one of those trying kids on for size tight families to see if they worked. It's quite honest, when you birth children, you're not guaranteed a personality that you jive with. Love is beyond that. Love is a commitment to care for the person, whether it's easier, whether it's hard. - For Pam, you don't love someone because they're family. You just love them. And that's what makes them family. Two years after Jenna moved in with the parkers, she had her official adoption day. - I had said to Jenna, I know this doesn't feel like this to you, but I feel like I've just gone to the hospital and had a baby. - I'm trying not to get emotional right now, because by the time I ended up with them, I just did not have any courage to love anymore. It took me a long time. I would wake up after my adoption, and I would have to remind myself that I wasn't going anywhere for a long time. And so what I admire the most about my parents, and I call them my parents now, and it gets deeply confusing because it's like, which parents, what I admire most about them is that they loved me into loving them. - Okay, so that's the farmhouse up there. - Before heading home from the grizzles, we decide to make one more stop. At the grizzles Old House, the farmhouse where Jenna first came to live with them. It's been over a decade since Jenna's been here. We play basketball. There was electric fence, which I got shocked by a couple of times. - Jenna wanted to come so she could leave behind a letter, a couple pages of neat, handwritten script. It's a letter to herself at age 10. - Dear Jenna, I am writing to you at a time in your life that is filled with heartache and pain. I know how much you want your mom to get better so that you can go home. I know how much you miss your dog, shadow, and your friends at school. And I know how much you just want to belong. How hard you try to fit in. You are lonely because you are far from home. You are made more lonely because you sense you don't belong here. How I long to scoop you up and hold you in my arms. And whisper that you will belong one day as I stroke your back the way a mother should. My dear sweet, funny girl, you will belong one day, but not in the way you expect. You will search far and wide to find that special someone. And I am here to tell you that person is you. And when you finally find your truest love has been you all along, you will know you belong everywhere. Absolutely everywhere. Your truest love and most ardent supporter, Jenna. And with that, we get back in the car and drive away from the grizzles. Away from the farmhouse, we drive back home. (gentle music) (upbeat music) ♪ Now that the furniture's returning ♪ ♪ To its goodwill home ♪ ♪ Now that the last month's rent is skiing ♪ ♪ With the damage deposit ♪ ♪ Take this moment to dissolve ♪ ♪ If we meant it if we tried ♪ ♪ We felt around for five to one ♪ ♪ Things that accidently touch ♪ This episode of Heavyweight was produced by Kalila Holt and me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Lisa Wang. Our supervising producer is Stevie Lane, editorial guidance from Emily Condon, special thanks to Alexandra Garretton, Ben Nathoff Haffrey, Alex Bloomberg, and Jackie Cohen. Emma Munger mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Samson, Emma Munger, and Bobby Lorde. Additional scoring by Blue Dot Sessions, Luke Jinella, Sun Shapes, and Hugh Time. Our theme song is by the weaker than's courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on Instagram at Heavyweight Podcast or email us at [email protected] and be sure to subscribe to our free newsletter at patreon.com/heavyweight. We'll be back next week with a new episode. ♪ Music ♪ Unless there's anything else that either of you want to say. Well, can I just tell you that I love you, and. Oh, I love you, too. Okay, come on, wrap it up, you got it, and I'm just kidding. (laughing) Welcome, global here. My new book, The American Way of Killing investigates America's gun violence crisis. Through a series of stories. interviews and archival tape. I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the U.S. Get the American We Have Killing at Pushkin.fm/audiobooks or at Audible Spotify or wherever audio books are sold. Guaranteed Human.