#65 Meredith

Pushkin We have quite a story for you today, but before we begin, a warning. This episode contains themes of drug use. Listener discretion is advised. Yeah. Oh, finally. I wanted to tell you about my billboard in Times Square. Oh, wow. You're jelly. You want a billboard, too. I would die. I feel like you like it. What gives you that impression? Your relationship with being, you know, famous, I'm sure, is something as an artist that you. Wait, hang on a second. Did you just say that I was famous? No. It sounds like you did. And something of an artist. I said you wanting to be famous and your relationship to wanting to be famous. Yes. Yes. Do you. Do you remember? Do you remember? Are you recording? Because I said, do you remember? I'm asking. I'm recording you in my memory. Am I going to hear this on the radio? You're definitely not going to hear this on the radio. Oh, I. Oh, yeah, because it's not a radio, because it's a podcast, right? You know that I do a podcast. Oh, I love the news. Yeah, I have. Am I on speakerphone? No. Because, you know, when you put someone on speakerphone, you're supposed to tell them. From Pushkin Industries, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is Heavyweight. Today's episode, Meredith. Right after the break. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human. This is Jacob Goldstein. When you're a business owner interested in expanding to new markets, there's a lot to consider and countless questions to answer before making the call. The most important one being, are you ready? That's where ChatGPT comes in. Give it a goal, add your files, and ask Chat to help you map out different scenarios for the future of your business, so when growth is on the table, you've got an expansion plan ready to implement. Get started today at ChatGPT.com. If you love music. Great artist interviews. Check out Before the Moment, hosted by Nile Rodgers. This new series follows Nile as he travels across the country talking with some of today's most fascinating artists about the moments that shaped their lives and careers. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the point where everything changed. And this is Before the Moment. This podcast tells the stories that came before it. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Jacob Goldstein from What's Your Problem? Running a business is hard enough. Don't make it harder with a dozen apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. That's software overload. Odoo is the all-in-one platform that replaces them all. CRM. Accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR. Fully integrated, easy to use, and built to grow with your business. Thousands have already made the switch. Why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's odoo.com. For I don't know how long, maybe 12, 13 years, I've worn a Whoop band on my wrist. I started doing it because I met the founder of Whoop at a conference. He heard that I was a runner, and he said, oh, you'll love this. It's perfect for athletes. And he was right. I've worn one ever since. Every time I work out, I see how hard I worked, how long I need to recover. I wake up in the morning, and I get a complete picture of how my sleep went, which helps me understand the kinds of things that lead to a bad night and the kinds of things that lead to a good night. It's sleek, long-lasting battery, and now with AI looking at all my numbers and coaching me. Whoop is a winner. New members can try Whoop. A 30-day free trial before committing to a membership. That's whoop.com for your free month of Whoop. I consider myself a fair person. If a plumber enters my home, I offer him or her a cup of coffee. When presented with a bowl of restaurant mints, even when unobserved, I make sure to leave a few for the next guy. And if you have the good fortune of eating tapas with me, you should know right now you'll be eating at least half of it. So when Meredith, a fellow Minnesotan, asked me to weigh in on a matter of fairness, I was raring to go. And so it is, on a sunny day in late March, that I find myself pulling up to Meredith's. Hi. Jonathan in the flesh? Yes, it is. Hello. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, too. Hi. Meredith ushers me inside. I thought you'd have, like, bigger hair. I have no hair. Really? Has it always been that way? Have I been—I was born bald, yeah. As Meredith acclimatizes herself to my unexpected baldness, we settle in. Okay, I'm going to get some coffee. I got a half cup. How much coffee have you had today? Can you tell? Meredith fetches her fourth cup this morning, and I have a look around. She just moved in here three months ago, but the house is already feeling homey. You have a quote from the Dalai Lama? This was a gift to me from my Galentine's party. There are only two days in the year that nothing can be done. One is called yesterday, and the other is called tomorrow. So today is the right day to love, believe, do, and mostly live. Well, no offense to the Dalai Lama, but I've built a career on the idea that something can be done yesterday. Or at least about yesterday. And so I have Meredith tell me about her past misfortunes. Which all began, she says, three years ago, on a Saturday morning. You have to understand that, A, I'm a sweet tooth, okay? And the second really important piece of information is that my sister-in-law owned a candy store. This sister-in-law routinely sent boxes of candy to Meredith's three children. And because of the whole sweet tooth thing, Meredith would tell her kids to keep the candy in their room. That way, she'd only have access when she was in their room. The kids in their rooms tidying up. The agreement even had a name. I would take what I would call the candy tax as a price of me helping them clean up their room. And cleaning up is what Meredith was doing on the Saturday morning in question. She was in Aiden's bedroom. Aiden is her son, 17 at the time. And Meredith was hunting for his leftover cereal bowls. When I saw on the table some peach rings, you know, those, like, little chewy gummy candies. Yeah, I know them well. Right? They're really tasty. Yeah. And I shoved them in my mouth. Like, num-num-num. Meredith finished Aiden's entire bag of peach rings. Candy tax. From there, she moved on to her daughter's room to continue cleaning. And it was about 30 minutes later when I started to feel a little bit, you know, like a little bit, oh, something's not quite right. At that moment, a thought popped into Meredith's mind. What if the peach rings weren't just peach rings? Um, maybe a small detail. Most times, peach rings look like orange and white. Yeah. These were purple and blue. But I didn't think anything of it other than, oh, it must be a different version of peach rings. Maybe they're flavored blueberry. Sure, those blueberry-flavored peach rings. Then there was also where she'd found the blueberry-flavored peach rings. In a Ziploc bag. They don't usually come in a Ziploc. Oh, they don't usually come in a Ziploc. How big was the Ziploc bag? Like those little. Like the kind you would put drugs in? No, Jonathan, the kind you put a sandwich in. Meredith just thought Aiden had put the gummies in a Ziploc to, you know, preserve freshness. But now, as her head began to swim, she thought a new thought. And in the moment of time it took me to think that thought, my knees bent. My knees buckled. I drop on all fours. Because whatever was coming for me hit me like a freight train. A freight train freighted with boxcar after boxcar of gelatinous marijuana. My son comes running up the stairs, and I yell to him, what was in those gummies? All he says is, what were you doing in my room? I then say, what was in those gummies? He says, how many did you eat? And I remember trembling. I said, all of them. How much was in those? He's like, mom, 25 milligrams each. Meredith had eaten four peach gummies. That is, 100 milligrams of weed. I'm the person that takes the gummy that somebody gives you at five, and start shaving it down. So I knew, like, two and a half is my limit. She'd ingested 40 times her limit. And then I start yelling, well, you just killed your mother. The next several hours, I can only describe as kind of coming floating in and out of consciousness. I mean, I have moments of sort of dreamlike. I was in a forest running, and then the tree roots started coming up. And wrapping around my legs. I mean, that's not fun. Trees twist around your legs and are trying to, like, suck you down to the earth. Like, what is that? Meredith didn't know if she needed to go to the hospital. She wondered if she would die. She phoned a few friends to ask them to check up on her throughout the day. You know, by, like, voice dial. Because you weren't even capable of using the regular dialing. Jonathan, I couldn't move my fingers enough to get the right buttons. It's like laying there with a piano on you. Her friends later told her she kept repeating things like, am I going to be okay? And, God help me. All in all, 23 hours. Oh, my God. That's, like, longer than later. It felt, it felt, in some ways, eternal. Sometime around 10 a.m. the next morning, Meredith finally began to feel herself coming down. And with that, the anger set in. Anger at her 17-year-old son, Aiden. Well, now we got to deal with the problem. You didn't know that he kept drugs in the house? No, I did not know. Meredith says she'd always had open conversations with her kids about drugs and alcohol. But for the kids to keep drugs in the house was not allowed. And on top of that, leaving them out in the open when he knew about the candy tax, how could Aiden have been so careless? And what made it all the more upsetting, while Meredith was on all fours? Aiden flees. He's like, I got to go to work. And I'm just left here having to somewhat fend for myself. Was a part of you proud that you had raised a son who, you know, honored his work responsibilities? He was so committed to his work at P.F. Chang's that his mom took the back burner. You know, I probably did raise a kid with a good work ethic. I'll give him that. But here's the thing that three years later, Meredith still can't get over. Aiden refused to apologize. Instead, over and over, he uttered the same refrain. This is not my fault. Aiden felt like this was on you. Aiden 100% felt this was on me. And that no other parent would be that clueless. Meredith admits she is the sort of person who often gets herself into these kinds of noodles. Oh, I've got a few. I rescued a stray dog that was loose from a yard. What happened was, Meredith's dog was routinely escaping her yard. And people around the area would post about it on Nextdoor. Writing comments like, Who can't control their dog? And, Meredith, your dog is out again. She felt publicly shamed. And so, when she saw someone else's dog that was lost, it felt like a chance to reclaim the respect of her neighbors. And I proceeded to pick it up. It was a 40-pound dog. And I took it and really felt that I was doing a good deed. As Meredith started walking home, the dog started jolting. Spasms of gratitude, perhaps? She got the dog home safely, made a post, and waited. Finally, the owner showed up. And I was expecting to be met with, like, Oh, I'm so happy that you got my dog. I've been worried sick about it. Well, it turns out that I had taken a dog home. I had taken my dog from a home that had an invisible fence. Oh, that's why it was jolting. Yes, it was jolting, yes. And instead it was, You took my dog from our yard. And you shocked it. And, thanks. Is this why you had to move? It was probably a consideration. As for the drugging, however, Meredith doesn't think it was all her fault. This could happen to any of us. I even Googled, like, looking for validation of, like, Oh, this happens all the time, right? Sadly, Meredith didn't find the validation she was looking for. A lot more stories about dogs. But you know what? I think this has probably happened to a lot more people, but maybe they're harboring some sense of shame about it. They're just not talking about it. They're not talking about it. If it happened to you, you are not alone. If it could happen to you, you are not alone. If it happened to you, beware, okay? Maybe assess the color of the gummies. Maybe assess. Sorry to interrupt, but who do you think you're talking to right now? I'm talking to parents like me that wouldn't think their kid would have gummy candy in their room. The thing about people like Meredith, people who can laugh at themselves, is that it can be hard to know when they need to be taken seriously. Meredith can joke about the gummies, but it doesn't mean it wasn't scary at the time, or that she doesn't want some acknowledgement from Aiden. I keep waiting for this moment when he comes through the door. He says, Mom, I've been reflecting a lot, and I thought about that time when this happened, and I just want to say, I get it, I'm sorry. Has he never, he never apologized? No, he's never apologized. Ironically, of my three kids, he is probably the most sensitive, in terms of care and concern. So it was somewhat surprising to me that he could dismiss that experience so flippantly. Meredith has tried to draw the apology out, bringing it up once or twice a year. She tells herself it's an important, teachable moment. She tells herself that Aiden's refusal to apologize reflects poorly on her parenting. So she keeps nudging him, most recently in a canoe. Just the two of us. There was no escaping, and I went so far as, like, negotiation. Okay? I started at 50-50. Meaning, percent of blame. 50% on her, 50% on Aiden. Aiden is an econ and computer science major, and Meredith was trying to speak his language. I went down to 80-20, okay? 20% on him. 20% on him. He wouldn't accept that. He would not accept that. Um, at this point, I was like, well, now, what do I have to lose? I went all the way down to 99-1. I'm looking for a shrapnel, okay, of accountability. But she hasn't even gotten that. For three years, Meredith and Aiden have been at a stalemate in terms of who should be held accountable. It keeps popping up, and nothing gets settled. Meredith has tried recruiting friends to adjudicate, but Aiden has always questioned, So I thought a real, independent, objective third party might be the ticket to finding our path here. Someone that could see both sides and talk empathetically with my son about accountability. Do you think it's something you could be able to, like, broker? While we're all familiar with the idea of a claim adjuster, what Meredith needs is a blame adjuster. Someone who can adjust some blame onto her son and make him apologize. I accept the job, beg forgiveness once more for my baldness, and ready myself to leave. When? You want a ticket? Yeah. Meredith's phone rings. Hey. Hello. Hey. Hey. On the phone is Meredith's eldest daughter, Quinn. I'm here with Jonathan. Hi. Hello. Though Quinn was out of town during the weed dosing catastrophe, she remembers it well. Oh. Right. As long as we have her on the line, I ask Quinn if there's anything more I should know about. Quinn pauses, then asks her mother a question. Was this before or after your airplane incident? Oh my God, Quinn. The airplane incident. What's the airplane incident? Enter Exhibit B. I need to have my side of the story. I need to have my side of the story on this, because there's some definite biases from my mom. This is Meredith's son, Aiden. And when I phone him up at college, he tells me that the gummy incident is only one of two accidental druggings in this family. My mom was on a business trip out to the UK and Scotland, and then it's a birthday present I had just gotten to go with. Three months after the weed gummies, Aiden went on a trip with his mom. They were in the Amsterdam airport, about to board the nine-hour flight back, back home. I knew she had, like, some sort of, like, sleeping aid. And I was like, oh, maybe I could, like, have some for the flight. Aiden's about twice Meredith's size, so when he asked, she figured it couldn't hurt to give him half of what she normally took. And then I just remember, like, being in the Amsterdam airport, and I was like, man, I feel really gross right now. Like, I felt, like, pretty nauseous. When boarding started, Aiden was having a hard time standing straight. Like, right as I handed him my passport and ticket, I just completely pass out. He's behind me, and then I hear a crash as Aiden has collapsed into the stanchions. Basically, what I remember was kind of just, like, half-consciousness. She had just, like, kind of grabbed me by the shoulders, and she was like, we need to get it together. You need to get on this flight. They look at me. They're like, there's no way you are going on this flight, and you need to go to medical emergency or whatever. And I remember they, like, ran tests and, like, had to contact, like, poison control. Just like Meredith, Aiden was fine, eventually. But also like Meredith, Aiden was disappointed by his mom's reaction. Does she accept blame for the incident? Has she ever apologized to you for that? I don't know. I don't want to flat out say no, but I'm, like, leaning, more likely not. Aiden says when he first collapsed, Meredith was mostly focused on getting him onto the plane, even if it meant dragging his still-limb body down the jetway, Weekend at Bernie's style. I would have expected that the priority is that I'm okay, not like, oh, but we need to get on the plane. Right. Meredith wanted to keep things on track, which, not so different from Aiden, who hurried off to P.F. Chang's. And to top it all off, when they eventually were rebooked on a new flight, Meredith's ticket got upgraded. And guess who didn't offer that upgraded ticket to a certain somebody? I remember asking her, "Oh, did you ever consider, like, maybe if I got the seat for that flight?" Like, that you had been the one who was drugged, so. Yeah, and then she said, "I was supposed to be home 10 hours ago." Which, like, that behavior in that scenario was uncharacteristic. They're very good pals. This is Meredith's daughter, Aiden. Meredith's daughter again, Quinn. But I think they have a harder time, like, being soft around each other. Hmm. When they get in disagreements, both of them just, like, harden up really quick. Quinn says Aiden and Meredith are both similar in their stubbornness. To which, regarding the gummy incident, Aiden holds a hard line. He says Meredith is wrong about basic facts. Like, for one thing, the drugs weren't out in the open, but rather stashed in an old iPhone box on a shelf. Andy says he would never have left the house while Meredith was still panicking on the floor. It was only once she was panicking safely in bed that he went off to his job. Of which… I never worked at P.F. Chang's. Aiden briefly worked at a Panda Express, but that was months earlier. The job he was rushing off to was his caddying job at a golf course. My son had to head off to go serve Chinese food. Does that sound like more like it? More egregious than, "So my son had to leave to hit the golf course?" Um, I mean, both of those, when you say it like that, that just sounds, like, selfish. When I first got into this, I was certain that Aiden, and Aiden alone, was to blame. But now that I've spoken with Aiden, I'm not so sure. I'm still willing to adjudicate, but I'm starting to feel a bit out of my depth. Which drugging was worse? I don't know much about drugs. I couldn't tell you the difference between happy dust and happy powder. Lucky for me, though, I know a medical expert. After the break, a very special guest. A very special doctor guest. It's Jackie. If you're a music fan, here's a new podcast to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel. To writers. To rising stars like Alex Warren. Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point. That moment before the breakthrough. Before the success. Before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today. With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. When you're running a business and looking to expand, you need a clear view of the landscape before making any decisions. ChatGPT can help you prepare. Connect your Google Drive, point to relevant files and reports, and ask it to research competitors, industry forecasts, and market signals. It can turn the findings into a strategic deck in your team's template that you can review before presenting. It can help you build your business and your business plan. Growing a business is ambitious, and ChatGPT can help you do it with confidence. understand the kinds of things that lead to a bad night and the kinds of things that lead to a good night. Whoop is no screen. It doesn't need to be recharged every five minutes. It's sleek, handsome, and everywhere I go, I can instantly see who's part of the Whoop community. Whoop offers three membership tiers. Power your performance with the lowest price at Whoop One. Improve your health now and for the future with Whoop Peak, and tap into medical-grade health insights with Whoop life. Whoop is a winner. New members can try Whoop with a 30-day free trial before committing to a membership. This is Malcolm Gladwell from Revisionist History. In military families, service is more than a job. It's a legacy. At American Military University, that legacy can help open new doors through education. If someone in your family served in the military, you could be eligible for reduced tuition. Take the next step with flexible online programs built for real life. Learn more at amu.apus.edu slash military. Hello, Jackie. No, this isn't a glitch in your podcast app. The episode is not starting over, but this is indeed my friend, Dr. Jackie Cohen. Dr. Jackie Cohen is a doctor and I'm phoning her today in her expert capacity. I start with the airplane incident. So what do you think? Like, you know what I mean? Like, is that a reasonable, like, would you do that? Would you share my pills with my son? Of course not. Of course not. Listen, I, okay. It's not the worst. It's not the worst thing she ever did. It's not the worst parenting moment, but it's certainly not up there. And the reason it's not up there is that, I mean, the only red flag to me in this because she's coming to you with her problems. So that's the first problem. That's the biggest litmus for you. Yeah. So basically, I mean, by your logic, you think that every single person who has come to me in all these years is not well, by virtue of the fact that they have come to me for help. Look at our dear friend, Mary Claude. Mary Claude came to me for help. She did? Yes, she did. There's an episode. She did. Did I not help her to get her real estate license? Did I not? Okay, I'm not going to lie to you. Okay, yes, and it was a good story. Okay, fine. You're right. You're absolutely right. Although Jackie concedes the point that not everyone who comes to me for help is certifiably deranged, she does think Meredith is certifiably undeserving of an apology. From Jackie's perspective, it's Aiden who deserves one. I'm totally with the son on this one. I think his response is so appropriate. Like, you know what? It was on her to be, like, fishing around his room and consuming candies. Though when I tell Jackie about the seed upgrade. You gave it to him, right? No, she didn't. She took it herself. She does seem to enjoy Meredith's chutzpah. I mean, the least she could do is let him sleep it off comfortably, right? That's what the kid felt. Yeah, I'm totally with kids. Kid's great, by the way. Kid is on the ball. Hey. How are you? I'm good. As with any medical question, I need a second opinion. So after my call with Jackie, I consult with a second drug expert. Not a doctor per se, but a doctor of the streets. Are you in your underwear? Yeah, sorry. This is my friend Steve Marsh. If his voice sounds familiar, it's because he was the subject of another episode of this podcast and is thus, by Jackie's estimation, unwell. Steve has done ayahuasca in Peru, iboga in Gabon, and participated in the unofficial Champions League of Ecstasy at Berghain in Berlin. Even though I pretty much don't know what any of these words mean, I do know that Steve has been breaking on through to the other side since his teens and hiding weed from his mother since he was in diapers. So I tell him the gummy story and ask, I don't think he's really understanding what his mom went through, maybe. Like, I've done the heroic dose of almost any drug you can name. And, yeah, that's a serious dosage. So serious, Steve says, that 25-milligram gummies aren't even legal in the state of Minnesota. Steve himself has never taken 100 milligrams of edibles at one time. But he's sympathetic to Meredith's plight because of the time he, quote, which he explains, is inhaling a super high concentrate of THC. I had to sit on, like, the side of a hill and, like, you know our friend Marisa? Yeah. Marisa had to come out back and, like, gently rub my back as if I was, like, having a panic attack, which I pretty much was, you know? So, like, I've been there before, Meredith. I get it, you know? Like, it is helpless and catatonic and scary. For Steve, it's pretty cut and dry. Unlike Jackie, he believes it's Aidan who owes him. He owes Meredith an apology. But to make sure he has all the information, I tell him the plane story, too. I would argue that's nearly irrelevant, you know? On top of it, one of the tickets gets bumped up to first class, and she takes it. That is her maternal right, I have to say. I just think that your mom ate your drugs, man. Like, why can't you get your head around that? You have to be responsible for your shit, man. After weighing Jackie's expert testimony and Steve's sort of expert testimony, I can only come to one conclusion. King Solomon-like in its tit-for-tat-ness. Meredith and Aidan need to apologize to one another. And because two apologies require two apology shamans? Do you want to go there with me? Sure. After the break, apologies all around. Yeah, I want to know where this kid is getting his high-powered weed gummies, too. Because every artist can point to that turning point, that moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. It can turn the findings into a strategic deck in your team's template that you can review before presenting to your leadership team. Get started today at ChatGPT. And he was right. I wake up in the morning, and I get a complete picture of how my sleep went, which helps me understand the kinds of things that lead to a bad night's sleep. And the kinds of things that lead to a good night. Whoop is no screen. Improve your health, now and for the future, with Whoop Peak. And tap into medical-grade health insights with Whoop Life. Whoop is a winner. The 30-day free trial before committing to a membership. It's a legacy. Learn more at amu.apus.edu/military. Emily said there's a really good restaurant near here called Broyer's or something? Broder's? Pasta Broder's? Aidan is home from college for the week, and so, on a warm afternoon, Steve and I, in our capacity as independent, objective third and fourth parties, make our way to Meredith's. It's like right here. Is this the house? Uh, yeah, that looks like it. The plan is to get in, get some apologies, and get out in time for an early lunch at Broyer's, or Broder's, or whatever it's called. Hi! Hi! Welcome back! How are you? Thank you. So, Steve, right? Yeah. You've been briefed? I've been briefed. I've been briefed. Okay. Meredith welcomes us in. Aidan is seated on the far end of the living room couch. Meredith sits down beside him. Steve and I begin by trying to secure an apology from Aidan about the gummies. It's not like I served anyone a silver platter. Yeah, but hiding them sufficiently means your mom didn't overdose on weed. The thing is, I think I did hide them. But unsurprisingly, Aidan is defensive. I just think there's so many signs that, like, would've, just, should be red flags. Yeah, but even if she missed them all, you're still responsible for the drugs. And if you can just admit that, then you can do drugs for the rest of your life. What prevented you from just saying, like, "I'm sorry"? At that point? I don't know. I don't— I think you were—I think you were probably worried. And at this point. Were you worried? At this point. Yeah. I think that just kind of ties back to the whole thing of, like, how much of the blame is that? Well, I don't know. I think we're caught up in, like, pie charts and ratios and responsibility. Yeah, we totally are. I mean, I feel like it's just, you know, my mother got hurt because of something that I was a part of. Do you feel like you were hurt? And that's it. That's it. I don't, like— I mean, you saw me basically melt and freak out. Mm-hmm. And then you checked out. Which is, of course, how Aidan feels about how Meredith responded to him in the Amsterdam airport. A point he raises. It wasn't like, "Oh, my God, Aidan, are you okay?" I just hear, "We need to get on the flight." I know. You're just like, "You're fine. You're fine." I know. I know. I know. Because, like, honestly, I thought, you know, I love you, but, like, sometimes you're, like, you're a little dramatic. That was the top of your mind. You're a little dramatic. Sometimes you're a little dramatic. Uh-huh. And I thought, "Okay. How bad can it be?" Which is kind of what Aidan's thinking about the featuring, right? Okay. Like, how bad can this be, Mom? Well, it's— So, like, do you guys realize that there's some stuff that's happening on both sides? A lot of stuff on both sides. But just when I'm starting to think there will be no sorries, Meredith starts inching towards the light. I just—I—I just felt so bad. I think I did feel, like, shame about it. Right. And then making the apology more grand would just be somewhat underscoring my shame about it. Sure. That I just was like, "Can we just move on?" You know? But the— I think your point is I missed your suffering. Mm-hmm. And, um— I, you know, I will apologize for not being there in the right way at the time. I'm sorry. Yeah. Like, I should have had more empathy for you in that situation. Aiden nods, but he still doesn't offer an apology back. So Steve offers a helpful push. So maybe what's going on here is just like, you're getting better at modeling apologies. Uh-huh. And now Aiden will go back and think about what a real remorseful apology sounds like. Maybe. That's maybe the first time he's heard one. Like, the gesture of apology is like— Could be bigger. Yeah, maybe just like is under-rehearsed in the family, you know? When I spoke with Quinn, she told me that it's true. As kids, they didn't have many examples of what it looks like to say sorry and mean it. Which might be why Aiden is struggling so. Right now. You could acknowledge, Aiden, that maybe you're not good at that. Do you think you're good at apologizing from the heart? Probably not. Yeah. And maybe it doesn't have to happen today. Yeah. But, like, it's a good thing to acknowledge that, hey, I'm a kind person. Mm-hmm. I'm a good person, but I might suck at apologizing. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, like, because it's like— I mean, I could just, like— Say it, and then, like— Say how that feels. Okay. I'm sorry that my actions caused you harm, and that my irresponsibility was inflicted upon you. Thank you. Yeah. You know, Rami, originally my motive or my sort of questioning of this was, someday you're going to be in some kind of a relationship, right? With some other person. Yeah. In which you're going to have to see things from their perspective, and you're going to have to back down a little bit, no matter how convinced you are that you are in the right. It feels like Meredith is speaking from experience. I ask her about it later on, and she tells me that she was. She was thinking about her most recent relationship. It had just ended, and she says the situation could have used an apology. She wants her son— To learn from her experience. That is, after all, what good parents want most. And so, you know, part of my, like, yearning here was like, how do I help you get there? My hope going into this was that Aidan would accept blame for the gummies, and Meredith would own up for what happened in Amsterdam. A little quid pro quo, and everyone goes home happy. And that did kind of happen. Sort of. In the weeks after the conversation, I find myself thinking about this business of modeling behavior that Steve had brought up. If Meredith hadn't modeled apologies for her kids, it begs the question, who had modeled not modeling apologies for her? So I reach back out to Meredith to ask whether her parents ever said sorry to her. I don't think so. But at times, it would have been nice, she says. By way of explanation, Meredith tells me about all the times she'd be left waiting, after ballet class or school, for her mom to pick her up. I just remember feeling like the last kid standing, waiting, like an hour, outside. Yeah. And I think she, I don't know what she was doing, but I kind of, the message was like, well, I kind of see, I'm a lower priority. It's funny, now I think about me picking up my kids, it's the horror that I would feel if I'm late by like five minutes. Is it because like you remember that feeling of just? Waiting and feeling like, does anybody care? And it wouldn't come with an apology? No, I wasn't allowed to be angry about it. Right. You know, it was like, well, that's the situation. And you just got to like. Suck it up. Suck it up. Anything other than that would be dramatic. You know, did that somehow sort of translate down in the way I raise my kids? I mean, Aiden's reaction to me overdosing on his gummies was suck it up, right? Which is exactly what I did to him. Like family heirlooms are the gene for colorblindness. The value of apologizing is handed down. But if you didn't come from a family where there was space for all that, it's hard to create that space when you become a parent yourself. How can you give the thing you never received? I don't know the solution to that. But I do know that. It can't hurt to keep trying. Do you think it's still possible to change? Like, you know, where you can have a relationship with the kids where you can apologize to them in the moment and they hear that, feel it? Can people change? Yeah. We can't change yesterday. And we can't know who we will be tomorrow. No, Jesus, maybe the Dalai Lama is right. Today is the right day to love, believe, do, and mostly live. And hey, if you choose to smoke a little of the good stuff along the way, just be sure to consult your pulmonary cardiologist first. Heavyweight takes no responsibility for bad trips. Only the good ones. Now that the furniture's returning to its goodwill home. Now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damage deposit. Take this moment to decide If we meant it, if we tried Or felt around for far too much From things that accidentally tied If we meant it, if we tried Or felt around for far too much Or felt around for far too much From things that accidentally tied If you love music and great artist interviews, check out Before the Moment, hosted by Nile Rodgers. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the story of the world. Because every musician remembers the point where everything changed, and this podcast tells the stories that came before it. He heard that I was a really good singer, and he said, oh, you'll love this. And he was right. Whoop is a winner. It's a legacy. Take the next step with flexible online programs, built for real life. Learn more at amu.apus.edu. slash military this is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human