65 | Bryan Loritts on the Future of Preaching

(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Barna Resilient Pastor podcast where we help pastors lead with wisdom, hope, and courage in a changing world. I'm Sharon Miller and this podcast is part of Barna's mission to encourage and equip pastors to be resilient, spiritually, emotionally, and in their leadership. Together, we'll explore new research and real conversations to help you understand the times and know what to do. If you're not doing so already, go to barna.com and sign up for the free Barna email to access the latest Barna articles, resources, and special discount offers. So guys, it is good to be with you for the last episode that we are putting out before Christmas and just before we start recording, I used a Southern phrase that apparently you guys had never heard before. I said that something really burned my grits and that's a real tried and true Southernism, but then Rich, you shared that you have never actually had grits, which honestly, I'm shocked. Like I thought New York was like the, I thought there was like all food was in New York. Not bad food. That's from Glenn Packing, everyone, by the way, before. Okay, you're an exile. Don't ever set foot in the South. Glenn, it's just New York in California for you, buddy. That's it. Coast to coast. Sharon, I've never had grits before. I don't know if I could spell grits. I mean, I've never had, I've never had grits. So grits are, there's a number of Southern foods that I'm curious if there's like a Northern equivalent. Have you all ever had collard greens before? Yeah, I mean, Sharon, here I'm being facetious because I lived it. I went to school in Oklahoma and I had a lot of friends. Rich, right now. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, but I had a lot of friends who were from the South and, you know, I've traveled, I've traveled, I've traveled, so I've had collard greens. And I have had grits. I just bought my favorite food. Yeah. Well, it's, so Rich, you have not had collard greens either. No, I've seen them. I've been in the presence of collard greens, but I've, but I've never had collard greens. So I would put them, both of those things in the same category. I'm assuming you have both had, this is not Southern thing, Brussels sprouts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so you've had like really good Brussels sprouts of more. 100% yes, yes, yes. Okay, so these are all in the same category of food that it has to be drowned in some other flavor in order for it to be edible. So with like collards, what you do is you cook it with like bacon and you just overwhelm the taste of 'cause we, you wouldn't eat a Brussels sprout just on its own. Like I have to be doubted. I would, no, no, no, no, I would, I would eat a Brussels, but I've, I've enroasted but Brussels sprouts, I definitely have. Like no, no, no, no, just olive oil, no, a little bit of salt, yeah. Okay, so California guy. So, but grits are similar where if you cook grits the wrong way, it's basically like eating styrofoam, but if you put cream and cheese in it, it is like, it's incredible. It's just sounds like you have to work really hard, but Sharon, I don't know if I want to work that hard to make something taste good. I don't know. I mean, I still think though, like to be an American, you need to try. Wow. It's like it's somehow, it's like a summer food. To be an American. Wow. Okay. I like that. Jots fire. No, that's a hot take. I like the take. I like it. I like it. I like it. You know what? You don't have to work very hard for guys is you don't have to work very hard to have a meaningful advent. If you reach the notices, new devotional waiting purchases, for listeners who can't see it, seamless, seamless segue there. This is for YouTube viewers. I'm holding it. Well, thank you, Glenn. And if I can just say one thing, because I've gotten these Instagram messages, because when the book was originally published, it was published off center, which was a, which was a big desolation for me. So if you have an off center copy, you have what I would call a limited edition copy of waiting for. I haven't. Congratulations. Yeah. Yeah. So it's going to be worth a lot of money one day. Done. Done. Mine's also autographed by the author Rich. The Lotus himself. So well, congrats. Yeah. We should actually say congratulations. We should. We should release of this beautiful. I love your voice at advent. If you guys are not following Rich, he's such a great voice to listen to an advent. A really great shepherd as well. So. Oh, thank you. I have for this. That's all right. Questionably American. But you know, questionably American shepherd, because he's never had grits before, but a. Okay. I'm getting us back on track. So before we get into today's conversation, we want to thank one of our partners, Belay. Belay has been serving pastors for 15 plus years. And today they're offering a free resource called Mission Based Budgeting. It's simple, practical, and gives you the tools to build a budget that actually works for your ministry. Just text Barna to 55123 to grab it. That's B-A-R-N-A-255123. And another one of our partners, Brotherhood Mutual. Brotherhood Mutual is a leading national provider of ministry-focused insurance and services. Headquartered in Fort Wayne, Indiana, Brotherhood Mutual has a heart. For serving the church and keeping ministries thriving. For more information, visit Brotherhood Mutual.com. So in just a minute, I will be sitting down with Brian Loretts to dive into all things preaching. If you are not familiar with Dr. Brian Loretts, he is a teaching pastor at the summit church in Durham, North Carolina, which is where I live. And because amazingly, the first time I'd ever talk to him, which is kind of crazy considering we are both in Durham. I imagine he's had a grits too, Sharon. I bet he has grits, I bet he has. But he is also the author of several books. And I'm going to dig into that conversation in just a minute with Brian. But first, I wanted to talk with you guys about some of the stuff that we talked about specifically. This data point from Barna about preaching becoming more challenging. And I found that three and five pastors say preaching has become more challenging today than when they first began. And so I'm curious if that resonates with you guys, like what feels different about preaching today compared to when you first started, Rich, do you want to kick us off? Yeah. Well, when I first started, it was 1999, I mean, I became a Christian in 1989, but six months later, I started preaching. In terms of regular preaching, it was probably 18 years ago. So lots have changed, you know, in some ways, I think three things. One, the advances of technology has made it very challenging or in a good way actually. Because in many ways, not everyone, but especially younger generations might be fact-checking us as we're preaching. And so I, plenty of times, have quoted someone and they go, you know, I'm not sure if that was a original quote or that was somewhat so and so said that or do you know that that might be different. And so I think it heightens just the level of preparation, integrity, which is a good thing. So I think that's a change or that feels different. I also wonder about just a pressure, especially in the last decade around social political, to what degree do pastors speak into the social and political moment. That was, I mean, I think about new life fellowship when Pete's gazera was leading it. I don't recall the level of social and political pressure that Pete had to face just, you know, 12 years ago. And so that's a shift. And then I wonder also, and Glenn, I wonder what you think about this. You know, the attention spans, you know, the, the, the, the, because we're in a bite-size tick-tock, you know, Instagram, I do wonder about how we're being habituated into a shorter attention span. And so it just makes it more challenging for preachers and on some levels, generationally, to connect those, but those are just a few things that come to mind. Glenn, what do you think? You know, when I think about the ways preaching has changed or the challenges you guys, I think about two other barna stats, you know, we, there's a, there's a lot of barna research on the spiritual openness that people are experiencing right now. So there's this openness, you know, I think it's 44% of, of, of people say, I'm more open to God today than I was before the pandemic. So that's really wonderful. But I often pair that with another barna stat, which is, you know, do you consider a pastor or a priest to be a trustworthy source of wisdom on spiritual things? Now, it's such a, such a wonderful question from the barna team because it's so precise. Do you consider a pastor or a priest a trustworthy source of wisdom on spiritual things? Not just general things, but on spiritual things, and only 45% of church going American Christians said, yes, now think about that. That means little more than half of the people who go to church and consider themselves Christians are listening to pastors and preachers and going, yeah, I don't know, I don't know if I trust that. Now, I'm with Rich. I, I think this is a little bit of a self-inflicted wound. I think too many pastors have used the pulpit to comment on things that they have no expertise in. I think about during the pandemic when pastors started to act like public health experts. They had no expertise on that. Oh, they started to comment on, on different, and sometimes the social political pressures, you know, Rich has forced people to, to speak with authority about things that you actually don't know. You don't know the pain of an immigrant community or you don't know the impact of certain policies or whatever, but you declare them like you're just an expert, you know. And so, so I think we have eroded our own trust. And I think, I think the way out of this is a kind of humility that places ourselves under the word of God as well. You know, I, I cringe when I hear preachers who talk like, who talk down to their people, you know, let me tell you how this works. This is so simple. And if you, you know, and they're kind of, and there, there is a kind of preaching that is this shock, shock, kind of talk down, treat the people like they're dumb. People are not dumb. And the technology, and not only are they not dumb, but technology has made it so their access to information is quicker and arguably more accurate than it, than it used to be. So they're not dumb. And one of the things that's, that's made me want to do is to take an intentionally interdisciplinary approach in my preaching. And that's not because I'm trying to validate God's word out there by the social sciences. We gotta be careful about that. We're not trying to do that. But I do believe that God's wisdom is concentrated in his word, but dripped out in his world. So the concentrated form of God's wisdom is in his word, but the dripped out version of God's wisdom is out in the world. And so anytime we can help people find those breadcrumbs, it's a good thing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, for me, so I've only been preaching, I've been teaching as a woman, you know, a lot of women have very nontraditional ministry paths. And so a large portion of my preaching experience has been just in other places besides the pulpit on Sunday morning. I've only been preaching in the pulpit on Sunday morning for the last seven years or so. And so I don't have as long of a track record to compare to. I do feel, I think that one change that we've all experienced is the way of consumerism and how it puts a pressure on us to perform just because you can hear, you are now being, and we've talked about this before, but you're being compared to all the other world-class creatures out there, it's not like you have this country perished where no one can go anywhere else, like they have to hear from you. And I think that that changes the entire experience of the average person coming in where it's not necessarily just to be fed or to be edified for the week, but it is a product to consume. And not everyone feels that way. And I don't think everyone is treating the sermon that way, but I definitely feel the weight of that. And it's really hard to bracket that mentally. Then the other shift that I've noticed and Richie alluded to this already is simply that the church, or maybe Glenn, maybe it was you that said this, it's, the church is no longer the moral authority. We're no longer the moral authority. And that changes the posture where people are not necessarily listening to pastors anymore as the compass, like the moral compass. Again, some people are, especially if you're in the Bible bells, but it means that you need to be modeling a posture of humility. You do need to be fact checking. You can't just make a statement that is lazy and has not been researched that you haven't cited, and you don't actually know if it's true. It just sounds really good, it's very sound, bitey, like we cannot be doing that anymore. And if we do make a mistake, if we do say something is wrong, that undermines our credibility all the more. And so those are some of the shifts that I have been discerning as well. That said, what would you guys, what would you say are some of the age old principles of preaching that still holds that you still go back to even with all these changes that have been kind of like tried and true? Glenn, do you want to answer first? I mean, I hang on to that phrase that John Stott used, that preaching is between two worlds. It's a bridge between two worlds, the world of God's word, and the world of the hearer, the world of the congregate. And I'm sure that's not unique to stop, or original to stop even. I think lots of people have probably tried to articulate something like that. I think Eugene Peterson said he couldn't preach on Sundays unless he had walked to the neighborhoods on Wednesdays, and we have many new versions, I mean, walking the neighborhoods now could be keeping up with your folks on social media, it could be loosely being familiar with some of the podcasts. I mean, it's interesting, Rich, you talk about the TikTok thing. Isn't it funny that we have that short form, 15-second kind of clip, but then we also have these long form, 90-minute, two-hour podcasts that are like the number one podcast in America. And so there's some level of familiarity with their world, and this is where I have tried to grow the most in my preaching. I started in 2009 preaching weekly, part of that was more on the worship, the kind of ministry stuff. So 16 years, but I think in my earlier, probably decade or so of preaching, I was so immersed in the world of the text and commentaries and biblical theology. And I was trying to take people to school every Sunday, you know, I was trying to like distill seminary knowledge. And I was trying to bring them into a theological universe. Like here's a theological lexicon. Here's the liturgical calendar, you know, and some of that's okay, but I find myself more and more trying to enter their world and to go, okay, so what does a business person think about? What does a, I mean, I'm in California. What is a social media influencer? I think about like what are some of the language and handholds and framing words that they would use, KPIs or whatever, you know, and I think, I think you're always working to bridge the worlds. Yeah, that's great, Glant. And along the lines of bridging the worlds, you know, what remains the same, I think three things come to mind. One is just being clear about the emotional needs that people carry and how the message is speaking to that. It's very easy to live in the world of against theological reflection. We want to bring theology, but people are coming in with some very serious concerns, emotional needs. And our ability to just resonate with that in our messages, I think goes a really long way. That's an age old, just practice there. What are people experiencing and how can we name that in the life of our messages? Second, I just think the need for metaphor, the need for story, the need for analogical thinking. It's hard for people to think in abstract theological terms. And so the more that we can incorporate metaphors, it's one of the reasons when I train our preachers at our church. I, for a 30 minute sermon, I asked that they incorporate about six to seven, whether there would be metaphor, story, analogy, analogical thinking, something to make the abstract kind of theological text or whatever it might be, far more concrete. And so just the need for metaphor, I think, is important. And then third, I think people, what's age old is that people need hope. At the end of a sermon, there's life is hard. Life is hard. And people want to walk out of a sermon, just going, God is with me. The spirit of God does want to empower me. So I want to make sure, when I'm landing a plane from a sermon perspective, I want to infuse the people with hope that there's a God who loves them and is with them. Those are things that I think stand the test of time. So good. Yeah. How about you, Sharon? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, encouraging people where they're at and that requires knowing where the people in your church are at as well, you know, making time for pastoral care, not just sermon prep, making sure that what is shaping or thinking on things is not the noise of social media, but what you're actually hearing from the people in your church. Even I just, so this Sunday, one of our younger staff is going to be preaching. And I asked him earlier this week, you know, the Advent theme is hope or peace is what it is peace. And I said, you know, how's your sermon prep going? And he just looks at me and he goes, I think I'm realizing that I don't know what peace is. And I think he was more reflecting like we've all been there like when you first start, start out preaching and you sort of over like pull it apart, you know, like you're trying to kind of get to the bottom of it so you can dissect it and explain it. And I think that's really normal for everyone to kind of go through that phase of sermon prep, but I said, you know, I want you to think of the people in your life who's who struggle with anxiety and what do they need to hear? Like what is the hope of the gospel for them practically? And so not losing sight between, you know, the theology or exegesis or the noise of social media, but remembering like the felt needs and when posted note that I have on my wall when I'm preparing, it says do not answer a question that no one is asking. And so just making sure like this is addressing like a deep human cry of the heart has always been a good compass for me. Well, one final question I want to ask you guys before we turn over to my conversation with Brian is Christmas Eve is right around the corner and this is, you know, kind of a different type of service where we tend to have a lot more folks who are attending who wouldn't be in church. And I think there is kind of this pressure like, all right, you know, you got to get people saved, you got to like, you got to preach to the gospel because it's the one shot that you have. And so what wisdom would you guys share for all the pastors listening who are preparing for their big Christmas service? You know, when I think about this, you're right is that Easter and Christmas, the pressure on pastors can feel so overwhelming that everything is on your shoulders to get people across whatever threshold of faith. And my predecessor, ska zero was really helpful in this for me where he and I think here's my encouragement to pastors and or preach, especially those who feel like they've been doing it for a long time in the pressures there or they're very new to it. And what do I say? I think we have to trust the ministry of the Holy Spirit to help people come to save knowledge of Jesus. Now that doesn't mean we don't do our homework, that doesn't mean, but I think get the pressure off your shoulders here and pronounce good news, announce that the old story carries so much power. Yeah. I think the question is for me, how can I simplify the message? So I'll just a practical thing, I don't use Christmas Eve as an opportunity for theological kind of treat us, a reflection here. It is so bite size, my sermon is usually 15, 20 minutes and I'm always looking for very simple frameworks to help people. So for example, this year, a good buddy of mine, AJ Cheryl, you guys know AJ, I think as well, who's in South Carolina, I think AJ has had grits as well because he's in South Carolina Sharon. So I'm sure he is. True American. He's a true American pastor here, but AJ posted something recently and I told him, I said, I will be referencing him, he gave a framework, like four words around Christmas. God is, you know, four with in and through and I just thought that is so simple and so beautiful. God is for us, God is in us, God is with us. God wants to work through us. And I just thought, well, I know what my frame is going to be for this Christmas Eve. And so the simpler, the better, this is not an opportunity for a theological reflection, a long one that is. And again, stories, metaphors, that goes a long way in helping people to capture really what this day is about. Glenn, what have you thought in terms of your work in new life in Colorado, now in Rock Harbor? What's your journey been like? Well, I shifted and I mean, it's partly due to the change in my context, but it's also partly due to the maturation of my own journey as a preacher. I think my early sermon notes in general, it should have been a four part series in one sermon, you know, so I was just trying to put everything in there. So, so I, and I think to, you know, some of you, maybe you're, you're preaching and you don't normally get to speak, don't, don't try to put it all in one sermon, like, like, take it easy. That's right. And then, and then to repeat what you've said in a different way, Rich, like the Christmas Eve's, you, you really shouldn't be saying anything new, like this is not the time to shift people's paradigms, you know, say the clear and aim for clear, not clever, you know, like, like, just, just, just say it, it is, it is powerful. And then because it's brief, and I do think it should be brief, I do think it should be half at the length, maybe two thirds of the length of a normal message, probably more like half the length. I'm aiming for a 10 minutes, actually, and we're doing an outdoor kind of carols thing. We're doing it. It's much more outreach oriented than in years past, which I'm really, really excited about. Actually, guys, just before coming to record this, I invited the lady at the UPS store. It was just an amazing thing. Like, I was, I was just chatting with her. I was like, "Oh, you must be stressed out," and she's like, "Yeah, it's been busy. How about you?" And I go, "Well, I work at a church." And she goes, "Oh, yeah, Christmas." And I go, "But you know what, actually, we're doing this new thing. We're doing carols out in the field, you know, in your city hall." And she goes, "What?" And I go, "You should come," and she wrote down the dates and the times. So, I think, you know, you get out there and you start to think about the people who are coming. Yeah. They don't need complicated theology of the incarnation. They don't need you quoting Athanasius or, you know, like, say something clear. Say, tell one compelling story. I think you get one compelling story and then put the good news at front and center. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's so good. I was thinking about this yesterday, how both Advent and Holy Week, these are seasons that almost kind of preach themselves. Yeah. They're just so rich. There's so much imagery that you almost just kind of have to hold it up for people to look at. It really is, moves people in and of itself. You could preach a million different ways on Advent and the Christmas story, and it would always feel fresh and relevant. So, well, for all of you listening, we are just cheering you guys on as you prepare for Christmas Eve. And we are with you as well. But I'm so excited for you to hear my conversation with Brian. He is full of wisdom. So now on to my conversation with Brian. Well, Brian, welcome to the Resilient Pastor podcast. I was just saying off air that I cannot believe you and I have never met before because we are both in the Raleigh Derm area. And so, it's really great to finally meet you even though it's virtually and finally cross paths. But I was wondering if you could share a little bit about your background. We're going to be talking about preaching specifically in this cultural moment. And one aspect of preaching is contextualizing your preaching. And so tell me a little bit first of all, where all have you pastored and how has the region shaped your preaching? Yeah. Great question. Sharon, thanks for having me on the podcast. Excited to get to chat with you. So yeah, I spent 12 incredible years in Memphis, Tennessee, where we planted a church. And obviously, Memphis, Tennessee, at the time, and I think it's still true today, Bible belt, the average person who got saved at our church. Their baptismal testimony went something along the lines of I grew up in the church, but it wasn't until recently where I came to understand that there's a difference between religion and the gospel. So the way I like to describe it is evangelism in Memphis, Tennessee. The way I approached preaching in Memphis, Tennessee, was I was going after the elder brother. And that story of Luke 15, the prodigal son, you know, it should be a dad and two lost sons because both of his boys are lost. One's the irreligious younger brother and the elder brother is in close proximity to the father, but his heart is just as far away, but both of them are in need of the gospel. So that's one thing. And when I was preaching in Memphis, I could say stuff like you're familiar with the story, the people there had a higher biblical IQ. From there, went to New York City, and then from New York City to the Bay Area where preaching there is a lot more to the younger brother, irreligious person, both New York City and the Bay Area where I pastored. Not only did you have people who didn't have as high of a Bible IQ, and I know I'm painting with a broad brush, but you also had highly successful individuals who were just typically highly educated, very independent, crushing it in the marketplace, and yet what drove them to church was, I'm checking all the boxes, but something's still missing. It's classic, the book of Ecclesiastes. So when I think about preaching in multiple contexts, I'm always thinking about Acts 17. So in Acts 17, Paul walks into the synagogue, preaches Christ to the Jews, he takes the scripture, he unfolds the scroll, and just walks through a text there. But when he's done with that, he goes up on Mars Hill. He's not around Jews anymore. He's around Greeks, Gentiles, and he doesn't unfold a scroll. He just takes an altar dedicated to the unknown God, quotes their own poets. But in both cases, Jews and Gentiles, he is able to get to the punchline, which is Jesus Christ's death and resurrection on our behalf. So yeah, I feel like Memphis was preaching more in the synagogue, so to speak, while New York and the Bay Area was more up on Mars Hill. And now you are in the Raleigh Derm area, which is kind of its own animal in some ways. And so I imagine every place that you have landed, there's been a little bit of a learning curve. And so what has your experience been of preaching in this area where we are in the Bible belt, but it is also a very progressive area, like we have kind of a mix where there can be high Bible literacy, and then people who maybe have a lot of baggage around the church. So how have you experienced that? Yeah, you know, obviously, you know, the Raleigh Dorm area much better than me. You've been here longer than me. I think complex is a good word for it, because I mean, you have a lot of things happening here, like East Durham, which historically has been more of an impoverished community, is so different from North Raleigh, and they're in very close proximity to each other. You've got all of these college students. This area has some of the highest concentration of PhDs in the country. And so you've got pockets of poverty. You've got all these college students. You've got highly degreeed people, professional people, blue collar people. And so it really stretches you. Our church this summit, I would say, broadly speaking, appeals more towards college students and highly educated people. I think a third of our church, 25 to 30% of our church, I would say, are college students. So yeah, it took me about 18 months to get my preaching legs under me. And yet there's a real hunger. I know we'll talk about this in a minute, especially among Gen Z. They want to hear the truth of the scriptures and to point themselves beyond themselves. And so that's been great. Yeah. It's fascinating hearing you talk about the differences between the different contexts where you have been, because I feel like especially when you go to social media, that complexity is not reflected in the rhetoric. It's very much like, this is what's happening, like this is what your pastor should be saying. This is how you should be navigating what is going on in the culture, when really it depends on where are you and who are the people who are actually in your church. And I think that some of that expectation that is coming from the outside is what makes preaching feel really difficult in this moment. Just to share with our listeners, one data point from Barna, they found recently that three and five pastors say preaching has become more challenging today than when they began in terms of society and culture. And I'm curious, Brian, how long have you been pastoring now? How many years? Gosh, that's a good question. About 25, I've been preaching for 35. Okay, so you have a longer time frame to compare to you than I do. Does that resonate with you, that it has become more challenging in terms of society and culture? Now, this is a very interesting conversation, because there's layers to this. If my primary audience was the black church, I would say there's been some changes, but not as much. The black church, black culture, always tends to be more fatherly. And so there's the expectation of the preacher to take more of a top-down posture. With the white church, it tends to be a lot more egalitarian. And by that, I'm not talking about where one stands on men or women. I'm talking about, so in the black church, they call me pastor. When I'm in primarily white spaces, they call me by my first name, because, and I'm not moralizing that, but because the viewpoint is, I'm just, I'm just like you, right? And so what I have found, because my space has always been multi-ethnic, the biggest change that I feel as a preacher in a multi-ethnic space or a primarily white space, is that the audience has gotten a lot more sensitive. And I'm not saying that's a negative thing. I'm not saying that's a negative thing. Let me give an example. Historically, I always preach Psalm 51 as, you know, David had an affair with Bathsheba. That is the historical interpretation. Well, I remember preparing to preach it, and we've got a team of people who look at our stuff, and one woman said, I'm uncomfortable with you all preaching on Psalm 51, because that's sexual assault. And I want to actually say that was, that was good for me to hear her say that, right? Because the more I look at it, you know, David did abuse his power, right? And the way that I could have, the way I would have preached that in the mid '90s, I could have just kept that in an affair box, no one would have been offended by it. People understand it, but preaching that 30 years later, I do think I have to be aware of words like people being triggered by it, the trauma that's attached to it, and I think responsible preaching is I have to at least caveat those things. I also think a major difference today with preaching, then when I first started is, I feel like, and again, some of this is good, so I'm not saying this is negative. It's just different. I feel like I am competing with the therapist, right? And I think, I think the basic posture of the therapist is to help you to create healthy boundaries, help you to become a better you, and it's almost like, what do I, it's, you could be so self-focused that you can therapy your way into a risk of verse life. And then, how do I now preach with that reality in mind knowing that there are points of continuity between the Bible and therapy, broadly speaking, but there are points in which the Bible does call us to come out of our comfort zones, to trust Christ when we don't, like these are, these are, they feel like little nuances, but they're so, they're so radically different that, I think the result is, it's made me a much more compassionate preacher, much more tender preacher. So those are just some of the things that I would say that I feel now that I didn't feel early on. I want to pause our conversation for a moment and tell you that our friends at Belay are making budget season easier with their free mission-based budgeting resource. This isn't theory, it's a hands-on guide with step-by-step instructions, practical templates, and training videos that walk you through the process of building a budget that fuels your mission. For over 15 years, Belay has matched pastors with trusted remote assistance and financial experts, and this guide is another way they're making ministry leadership easier. Download it today by texting Barna to 55123, that's B-A-R-N-A-2-55123, and we want to thank Brotherhood Mutual. Headquartered in Fort Wayne, Indiana, Brotherhood Mutual has a heart for serving the church and keeping ministries thriving. For more information, visit BrotherhoodMutual.com. Okay, back to our conversation. I really appreciate you saying that because I do think there is a temptation and a culture like ours where there is that sensitivity to being triggered that we can go sort of air in one of two directions. One is to either feel like stopping so sensitive, you know, to just blow it off. I don't want to, you need to take care of your own interior world or to feel paralyzed. And to basically say, how do I teach on that Psalm? How do I teach on these things that are difficult? And what I hear you saying is that we don't have to choose either one of those options that we are still called to preach the whole council of God's word and to do it with boldness, but to do it with maybe a set of skills or understandings that we did not have before. And so we can bring both. Am I hearing you correctly? Is that what you're saying? 100%. I think effective preaching is being Uber aware of where people are, right? Where a person is is where they are. And then with pastoral preaching, I'm lovingly, gently trying to use the word to move you in a certain direction over a period of time, which is why I love pastoral preaching over itinerate preaching all day long. And so, but I cannot persuade you if I don't know what your basic worldview is, if I don't know what are the major cultural undercurrents of a given time. You know, here's another different sharing. And there's a lot of positives to this. When I first started preaching, there wasn't this, I'll start now. One of the things I feel now in a good way is the need for women to be affirmed. That wasn't around when I first started preaching, right? I could make broad sweeping statements that I just can't do now. And I'm not talking about have I made theological compromises. No, but there is a way in which I'm saying things that I think has been personally redemptive in my own life and in my own approach. That's just incredible. One of the things I felt in the Bay Area was, you know, when I was preaching in Memphis, gay people or people in the LGBTQ+ community, they were those people outside the church. In the Bay Area, they're in my church and everybody in my church who was heterosexual had someone in their orbit that they were wrestling with. Now, listen, I subscribe to a biblical sexual ethic. So I have not compromised at all. But there's a difference in when you're writing a sermon and they're not in the room versus when you're writing a sermon and you know they're in the room. Those things have been really helpful for me personally. Yeah. You know, another thing that is making, I suspect, preaching, feel, challenging is the way that our culture is so polarized right now. And so everything, I was just sharing this actually with one of our younger staff that we're in this moment where it feels like everything is kind of run through a filter. And so there's what you say and then there's how people hear it. And so I suspect some of that is behind another data point that Barna found it, it said that Barna found that few pastors say their church is prioritizing justice in preaching. When asked to evaluate their churches preaching in programs, only 15% of pastors said they definitely prioritize addressing justice issues. And 42% said somewhat. Now when we talk about justice here, what we mean is biblically grounded engagement with what's wrong in the world. So advocating for dignity, fairness, and the well-being of neighbors who might otherwise be overlooked. And so my question for you is how you have navigated this? Like what does it look like to form believers who care about justice as part of discipleship and not as a political cause? Because I think that is, you reach a point sometimes where you feel like I don't want to be misunderstood again. And so I'm going to be silent. So how do we avoid that? So I think the most important thing I could probably say in this conversation is in answer to your question, this is where expository preaching is your friend. And what I mean by expository preaching, it's simply letting the text set the agenda for the message. What we do at Summit, I would say 90 to 95% of our series, we're moving methodically through books of the Bible. And when you just go, hey, we're going to start Ephesians chapter one. And we're just going to move verse by verse through Ephesians chapter six. He gives you an excuse to talk about controversial subjects without looking like you have an agenda. So when I get to, when I get to Ephesians chapter two, and Paul says, listen, Jesus Christ has demolished the dividing wall of hostility. So now Jews and Gentiles can rush in together. He's showing how the gospel creates a new paradigm for how we relate to people of different ethnicities and cultures. Right? If I'm moving methodically through Ephesians, look at that, chapter two talks about race. That's a lot different than me saying, hey, we're going to do a series on race. Or, hey, we're going to do a series on the immigrants. So I'm a big fan, whenever I teach preaching, I always champion expository preaching because it helps you to deal with very controversial issues and it allows you to hide behind the Bible as an excuse. So for example, there are over 2,350 verses, over 2,350 verses in the Bible that talks about God's heart for the orphan, the widow, the immigrant, and the poor, over 2,350 verses. And I think, I think we have to talk about that. So for example, if I'm talking about immigrants, the Bible says nothing about policy. I think that oversteps our bounds as preachers. I want to say what the text says. But the Bible is not going to give you any guidance over, you know, how many you should let in or not. It just simply says, care for them and you just got to keep it at a high level. I think the moment I get into policy issues, that's a completely different thing. But I would just say preach the whole council of God, that's what Paul tells Ephesian elders in Acts chapter 20. I did not shy away from giving you the whole council of God and that's going to allow you to deal with issues of justice. Okay, so I want to get your hunch on something. So I'm going to ask you to just speculate. So as much as scripture does talk about these things. So the minor prophets, you know, so much of the sermon on the Mount talks about these issues of justice. And yet we have pastor saying that only 15% of pastors say they prioritize those matters in their preaching. What do you, if you just were to speculate, what do you think is the disconnect there? If it is in scripture, do you feel like it's because a lot of pastors are preaching more topically and preaching expositionally? Yeah, my hunch to use the word would be no. I don't think that's the case. I think it's coming from a well-intentioned place of, man, let's just keep the peace. Let's just really keep the peace. You know, JD and I did a two-part series leading up to the last general election. So this would have been May of 24 on politics. And it was a really helpful series that we didn't get a whole bunch of pushback on because our approach was to not deal with political parties. Our approach was to deal with the issues. And what you have to understand is people in your congregation are going to keep score. So if I critique three issues on the Republican side and only one issue on the, that's historically a democratic issue or vice versa, people are going to notice that. But again, we want to, we want to go as far as the Bible goes. And the Bible doesn't give us anything about Democrats or Republicans, obviously. The Bible does have a lot to say about a sexual ethic. The Bible does have a lot to say about fighting for the unborn. The Bible does have a lot to say about issues of poverty and widows. And so the moment I start talking Democrats and Republicans, now I feel like I'm outside of the bounds of what the scripture talks about. But I think I have to talk about a biblical sexual ethic. I think I have to talk about caring for the poor and the least of these. My gosh, that's Jesus' last sermon prior to going to the cross, Matthew chapter 25, 3146, whatever you've done for the least of these you've done for me. So my, my hunch is I think these pastors, look, we've just been getting worn out. And I think they're saying, let me just dial it back and let me point people to Jesus. But I'm going to choose to believe it's just coming from a good place. Yeah, yeah. So switching gears a little bit to another cultural trend that you alluded to earlier is what is happening among Gen Z that there is this remarkable spiritual openness. And I think a lot of different folks are trying to get their hands around what it is. They're trying to label it. But I think right now what we do know is there's a spiritual openness that could kind of be scooped up by a lot of different movements and is around the world. And so in an area like this one where we have a lot of young people, we have a lot of college students. What are you seeing in terms of how to reach Gen Z? Yeah, I think, listen, I'm seeing, there I use the R word revival, I'm hearing stories. We're seeing it happen at the Summit Church a couple of Sundays ago. We baptized 376 people in one Sunday, a lot of them were college students. I mean, so here's my hunch. I feel like, I don't feel like there's, I don't think there's a coincidence between the openness, the unprecedented openness of Gen Z to things like the gospel on a broader term spirituality. I think that runs on a parallel track with things like the rise of anxiety, the rise of depression. Like, I feel like what Satan has meant to destroy people with, God as he always does is redeem it by having people and depression and anxiety really flourishes in affluent homes. And so you've got these individuals, these middle to upper middle class individuals who are looking around going, man, we've got all we need from a material possession, but why do I feel so anxious, why do I feel so depressed? What I've been turning to for Solus hasn't been working. And so I think that's one stream that causes people to go, well, maybe I need to be investigating faith. Maybe faith will help me here. And so I think that is a factor towards why we're seeing an unprecedented openness from this younger generation to the things of God. Mm-hmm. That's awesome. That's so encouraging to hear too. I'd heard that about the baptisms that you guys had and that's incredible. Yeah. All right. One last, we're running out of time. And so one last hard pivot into AI. Completely different, completely different influence on preaching right now. So there's a lot of talk right now about AI and its impact on preaching when Barna asked pastors what they are comfortable with AI assisting them with in their church. 12% said sermon writing and 43% said sermon research and preparation. And so I am curious how you have seen AI impacting your own preaching or other pastors around you, but also just what advice and also cautions you would offer for pastors using that tool. I don't use AI. I'm not anti preachers using AI. I am anti pastors using AI in the beginning of their preparation. So here's the quote, Tim Keller obviously gave this quote before AI was a thing. He passed it in New York City as soon as going on to be with Jesus. Tim Keller said the internet is the friend of information, the enemy of thought. And I think that's exponentially more true with AI. And so I just think from a stewardship perspective, whenever I get up to preach, that audience should expect that I have engaged the text for myself, I've wrestled with it because preaching isn't just something that I do as a service for others. It's a means of grace in my own walk with Christ. And so to outsource that or to really lean heavily at the expense of my own engagement, I've got integrity and ethical issues with that. And so I do think AI is great towards the end of my preparation. So as I've wrestled with the text, as I've done my research, as my thoughts are, you know, in the work relating, I don't think there's much difference between that and then me on day three, engaging a commentary, right? So, but I don't run the commentaries first, I don't run to YouTube videos of a pastor who preached the same text, I'm looking to preach this Sunday first. I have a mind, I want to engage it for myself. So I think it's a new reality, I think there's a lot of positives about AI. I'm just concerned at what point in my preparation of the sermon, do I use it? If it's up front and it's going to prejudice me against the text, I say no. If it's towards the end of my study and it's going to help to introduce me to some things I didn't think of or help me say and frame things differently, I say great, I celebrate that. I think it should be towards the beginning and take the place of thoughtfulness, does that make sense? Oh, absolutely. Especially that wrestling part of sermon prep is just really, wholly important work that cannot be short changed. And so I think that's why is also, I personally, I don't say this, please hear me as not saying this judgmentally, but 43% using it for research. To me is alarming because chat GBT specifically is wrong a lot. So early on, when I was sort of figuring out like what is this tool good for, I would type in questions and see the answers that I would get back. And then I would go through and I would fact check all of it. And I was shocked at how often it was just wrong. And so I want to be kind of wave a yellow flag, I guess I would say for pastors who are using chat GBT that if you are using it for research, that you need to go back and find multiple citations that back up that what it has given you is actually accurate because very often it is completely made up out of the blue. And so that is also, that's concerning to me as well. So we are way over time, Brian, I could keep asking you so many questions, but thank you for being a voice of wise counsel with all of your experience to all the pastors and preachers who are listening. Would you mind closing us out with prayer? Absolutely, I don't mind, Sharon. Let's pray. Father, thank you, I just pray for these pastors who are listening in and they are in different contexts, Lord God. And I pray, Father, that as Carl Bart, when he was asked what it was his philosophy of preaching, he says he keeps one eye on his Bible, one eye on the newspaper, on the culture, Lord God, that you would also help us, Lord God, to show how the timeless truth of Scripture pushes against the unique idols of our given context and culture, God give us great wisdom, God give us great boldness, we are living in some of the most divisive times in my lifetime. If not the most divisive time, Lord God. So I pray that you give us the wisdom of serpents and the innocence of dubs, Lord God. But at the end of the day, we want to do it all for the punchline of just seeing people come to know Jesus and being discipled in their faith and unleashed in their spheres of influence for your glory. So God, would you do it? I pray in Christ, amen. Well thanks for joining us for the Resilient Pastor podcast. If this conversation encouraged you, share it with a fellow pastor or leader, you can find more Barnard research and resources at Barnard.com. And thanks again to our awesome partner, Belay. Many of us are in the middle of budget season. So Belay's free mission based budgeting is super timely. It gives you easy to use templates and videos to make building a budget straight forward and stress free. Text Barna to 55123 to download it now. That's B-A-R-N-A to 55123. And to one of our other partners, Brotherhood Mutual. Brotherhood Mutual is a leading national provider of ministry focused insurance and services. That quartered in Fort Wayne, Indiana, Brotherhood Mutual has a heart for serving the church and keeping ministries thriving. Thanks for watching and listening to the Resilient Pastor podcast. See you next time.