65 - Austin Herring (Snow Story Productions) - The Fascination of bringing a Vertical to life...

Nice camera rolling action Welcome to my podcast let's talk about verticals a place where secrets are spilled stories unfold and the mysterious world of verticals is revealed to all its glory Behind the scenes. Oh, yes exclusive insights Absolutely eccentric characters you bet So pull up a chair for yourself something suspiciously strong and prepare for a conversation You didn't know you needed So welcome to the podcast let's talk about verticals and now let's talk Hello and welcome to my podcast let's talk about verticals today. It's a kind of new episode because I have a new person here from a new let's say true creative side ones. I've never had one Like him before so I'm very happy that he said yeah, I will join your podcast and he's a CEO I will ask him if he's also a billionaire Like in a verticals we will see but he's the CEO of snow story productions So a production company Of verticals and I'm very happy to have him and I'm saying saying hello to Austin Herring welcome to my podcast Hello, thank you so much for having me and to answer your question. I am definitely not a billionaire Not not anywhere close. Sorry Yeah, it's a big big disappointment. It's a bit it's a bit kmyth being a CEO billionaire no Not in really. I'm sure there's some Yeah, some some be yeah, Lula some CEOs. I'm sure our billionaires but but not me not and certainly not all of them No, my sense So as I said You are from snow story productions Correct. That's correct. I saw you know when I I was a bit stuck in your pro instagram profile And I saw you produced so many great shows. I really loved so Okay, that's so good And I spoke which were your favorites what which were the ones that you really loved? And the the country know what was it? I'm sorry. I have to check. I'm always so bad in the titles. Sorry for that And the country on all Tdv with Jackson tiller the country CEO country. Yeah, CEO in the country girl. I love this one Oh, good. I love it. You know, it wasn't a storyline. So different. Okay. It was a CEO and stuff like that but Right not the classic super big E-manction You know, right. I mentioned we saw in 10 verticals before And not the classic one 40 episodes Bank with scene Shit sorry Yeah, no, it's a it's a very cute one. It's very fun. I think it's shot really well. And of course Jackson and Meg are you know two of the biggest stars in verticals for a reason. They're very very good. They're chemistry was great That chemistry is so good. It's so good Yeah, so when I saw that you produced that I was oh yeah I need to make my podcast because you know um sometimes it's a bit different To speak with the Let's say production companies or platforms or stuff like that because some of them cannot take any Paul or let's say positive critic in a way Like I'm I don't know if you know that I'm doing every month With the five big-review ladies a monthly recap episode where we talk about verticals that drop in this month We also talk about the actor and actress of the month, side role of the month, vertical of the month and also crap of the month Oh gosh, I hope we have lately to talk a lot about Yeah, they're there yeah, there's a lot of uh subpar stuff in this industry for sure You know, I want to ask you that How is the situation with your production company come Does any platform come to you and say listen we have there a story one get produced Would you do that for us or Are you or can you choose which one you want to produce or is there sometimes Not so a big possibility to choose because Money is needed, you know what I mean yeah, well, you know like Yes, that's that's some of it, you know, I try to keep our guys working, you know, um, so we we try to Uh say yes to as much as we can but we do say no to stuff occasionally Uh, whether it's because the budget isn't big enough or the script is really bad or whatever we're we're Busy enough that that we can be kind of choosy about which projects that we want to take and which ones we don't um But typically yeah, they they'll come to us Um and say hey here's the script or or occasionally they'll say hey we would like for you guys to write a script Oh, okay, um in those cases sometimes they have a concept or an idea And they want us to write based on that idea and other times they're they're looking for concepts straight from us Uh, so we just did one i don't know if you saw it on drama shorts the sweetest challenge Um uh It was uh when did it drop That one dropped in late December i think i want to say right before or right after Christmas You know my problem is i'm really bad in the tight Yeah, it's it's it's very it feels very great British baking show it's uh You know she she she joins a baking competition and you know There's some shenanigans and cheating and falls in love with the host of the show and stuff like that Uh, but that was a concept that uh that we came up with ourselves we wrote the script ourselves and um and put that one together Our selves we've had a few others uh good girl bad biker I saw this one uh was another one. Oh, yeah, uh good good. I think it's another of our of our best um That one was directed by kacy jackson and has uh just Jacobi in it who's fantastic um and uh both both of those and a few others here and there are uh original concepts that we come up with and and have pitched to some of the apps that we work with And uh and they liked it enough to move forward with it uh other times you know like i said they give us scripts or they give us concepts and we be right A script based on their concepts and and work with them to put it together Another show i really loved and i saw on your profile that you did it was pool boy, right? Oh, yes. Yeah, we did oh heck yeah the the only thing i didn't like about this one that it was an interactive one I hate interactive ones to be honest Yeah, I've heard that a lot of the audience hate interactive ones But it was the first interactive one i even watched from straight the beginning to the end That was the first one that was yeah that was the only Thing i didn't like that it was an interactive one but you know all the actors were so great and i spoke Just before that dropped i did the podcast episode um And uh was talking about this one and uh You know one of the leads told me me and i you really have to watch it. I'm sure you will like it and i said Yeah, but it's an interactive one. Yeah Watch it you won't be disappointed and he was so right He really was uh uh something special i think i uh i i haven't seen the entirety of that one but What i have seen um It is some of the best acting that i've seen in verticals and those two really did have great chemistry It was a lot of like you know conflict between them and internal conflict It really and i feel like it really came through in a way that i think that that one was something special But the second one the the water boy water boy was it water boy called now With also decklin and Well, i don't know he don't know his sky skyland what says i cannot really Yeah, yeah, so they did The water i think it was called water boy but Did you do also this one? No, we didn't do that one actually now Oh, okay, and i haven't seen it how it was it as good was it how how was it to be honest? I haven't seen it Oh, okay Now for me it was kind of okay pool boy now What a mind a bit and it was published really close, you know It was not so that you could say okay more than a half year later for me it was too close in the in the release dates to what I don't know yeah so yeah what's the best for what do you like most when a client comes to you and said listen I have I don't know for a hundred thousand dollars make me a good vertical out of it and you were totally free doing the rest oh what kind of situation do you like most I mean we we love writing this stuff ourselves I think we have a great team of writers I think that we have in our time doing these we've really picked up a lot of the method to the madness and and have a pretty good understanding of what what really makes a great vertical so that's always fun for us but that said some of the scripts that our clients bring to us are really fantastic and so I think the answer is as much as I love writing our own scripts it's more about I really like working with great scripts and and and we pride ourselves on I I've heard that we have gotten a reputation snow story has as having the best scripts and that actors really jump at the chance to work with our scripts because they're not whether we're writing them or our client is writing them they're never just like written by Google translate you know that there's always somebody whether it's on our end or on their end that's American that that's that's translating these yeah or or writing them from scratch but great great scripts matters more to me than than who's writing it yeah my son what what's this needed for you to be a good script what kind of storyline do you like hmm that's tricky it's it's it's less about a good storyline because like we a great script can be a a traditional you know vertical with billionaires and CEOs and or or werewolves are all a bit above or it can be something that's a little lighter you know one of one of the favorite ones that we've done was accidental Christmas husband recently and that one was very hallmarky very yeah you know very very cute cozy lean from I love verticals which is also in my monthly recap she's always cozy calling this verticals cozy she needs cozy verticals exactly and so and you know there's been a lot of like like CEO and the country girl you said yourself it that's quite fit that that standard but then but then there's other ones you know that we've done a few like thrillerers that that there are a lot of fun so it's less you know which lane which genre it's in and more you know is it fun is it is it engaging does that give you those those moments that you can see yourself in in the character those the and and and then do those moments really resonate you know I think that that is what we get excited about and what what makes for a great storyline a great a great script more more than anyone specific genre because we at this point we've done I mean just just about every every genre that I've seen in vert if you've done a vampire one no we have it I we have not done a vampire one because I'm missing lately the vampire ones they're getting less yeah yeah yeah we we we had one that was that was moving forward but then just got that got scrapped that was a vampire one but we have not we have not actually put out a vampire one sad to say but vampire is I like vampires I think that that would be a cool you know that's kind of the story lines and the mystery and the costumes and oh they are so great I started watching verticals at summer 2023 and oh beginning on 2024 stuff like that there were a much more vampire ones than likely yeah I think where will two like they they've really kind of I don't want to say wound down but there's there's not as many werewolf ones as there were I was expecting a lot of vampire stuff for Halloween season you would think yeah nothing and I would expect more vampire than werewolf because the you know vampires are just so inherently more sexy to me but you know what do I yeah but I spoke I spoke with KC Esther for example and I told him KC us an alpha werewolf I don't know I believe more came on god if an and werewolf alpha you know is so tall and so and then KC said to me yeah because KC did two vampires and he said yeah I felt more better as a vampire and I said what do you think why and he said I'm always looking pale I have the I have a look for a vampire yeah that's true there are not much about looking like a vampire which which a lot of actors have you have to see a bit as he said the pale looking and then I really loved every vampire one I saw they had so great costumes and the shooting locations were so mystery mystical right oh holy and I missed them lately I haven't seen lately there are so many crap verticals dropping and storylines were almost 40 episodes banquet scene yeah is this a script you would turn down or what what kind of what no go for you where is your border that you say sorry but I won't produce that one hmm that's a good question I don't know if it's if it's so much about about a line because one thing that snow story does in in most cases we we have kind of strict policy where we have our producers and our directors do a round of notes or or a pass on the script when it comes from client because you know sometimes these guys are giving us scripts that that look like they were written by Google translate you know and so we we do a pass on them or other times we have clients who are really great and have great writers and so we'll we'll give notes on on what we want to see changed so far there's nothing there's never been anything that have been like really like red flags okay there's been a few that have been close like maybe orange flags or pink flags or something like that but typically when we do our pass we're able to kind of clean some of that up we're able to to steer our clients that that's one thing that has a benefit of the sheer volume that we've done in the number of big hits that we've done is a lot of our clients really do kind of rely on us to kind of steer that in the right direction and so when we say guys audiences won't really like this they tend to listen not always but for for me I think for there for that line to be there it would have to be big problems with the script and a combination of big problems with the script and a client that is is absolutely resistant to those changes that's where we might you know run into a wall where we're like you know what this doesn't this doesn't feel like something we want to attach our names to how big is your team at snow story productions that is a great question and the truth is I don't fully know the answer we have we have two teams in Los Angeles and and we'll probably be splitting into a third team in March we have a team in Atlanta a team in Charlotte North Carolina and a team in London we're not in Germany not in Germany well we nobody speaks German and it's no story I don't and so we'd have to it's something I'm definitely interested in exploring but we'd have because I'm trying to push your shooting verticals in Germany well it makes a lot of sense but the vampires that that that great castles here do you know how great castles you know I'm doing also some acting stuff and I have a big castlier in my hometown and I should do with the French production French movie in my hometown castles that was so good that was so so good and also the landscapes here are so fantastic and lately I saw the first casting calls here for a vertical shooting in Germany but do you know what was the stupid part about it they were only looking for influences with a big follower range so we need a production company here in Germany well maybe maybe this is for two days then maybe we'll get something put together over there it's only two hours flight from from London okay yeah that's not far and it would be easy but with a London team, you know, it would be very easy to kind of like, you know, trick bring in some of the London people train equipment. Is it easy to fly all the equipment here? No. Probably not like gripping electric stuff, but cameras, sure, yeah, cameras, cameras pack up and pull the little case and they're pretty easy to travel with. No, because funny part, as you said, you are able to write stories. I spoke with Tic Sardana actor from New York. And we spoke about my life and my life is like a really typical vertical story. And we decided that we have to put that in a script and have to make a vertical out of it. Funny part, we already did an AI generated film post. The poster exists. We need the story in a script. It would be the typical hospital rom com style. Yeah. Yeah. So how many verticals have you done so far? That's another good question that I don't know the exact answer. I know we're over 60. 60. 60, yeah. Yeah. We now, when you say you started watching him in the summer of 2023, I'm like, oh, wow, you're one of the true OGs. I'm an oldie. I'm an oldie. An oldie audience. Oh, OG. Oh, in English, we say OG. That's original gangster. That means you were one of the originals. But we got into it at the tail end of 2023 into. And then so our first one was in 2024. What was your first one pregnant by my ex's dad, another interactive one, actually. So you probably haven't seen it. But it was, it was the very, it was the first interactive one for real short. I assume real short. Yeah. Only real short is doing interactive. I know drama box had a few interactive ones, but most of the interactive ones are on, but I had the feeling that lately there haven't been so many interactive ones at least. Yeah. They've definitely been slowing down on it. Hopefully they, they recognize that the audience is not liking. Do you know why the audience is not liking the interactive ones? I've heard that they're frustrated by, by the extra amount of payment. Like you, you're paying for the episode and then you're also paying for the choices. And it's like, it's a little exhausting. You have a membership and paying for the membership. And the membership is not really cheap. And then you have to pay again, if I would, okay, yeah, you have the free choices also. But if I would watch one show, interactive one, every episode with the pay episode, the, the, the, it's stupid. Every episode got more, more expensive in coins. A weekly membership on rooftop, for example, costs me 25 euros. And if I would watch one vertical interactive one with every time the coin ones, I have to pay for one vertical and total more than 60 euros. She's. Yeah. Yeah, that ends up. That's so stupid. That's the reason why I don't like the interactive ones. And sometimes to be honest, the, the way you can choose is really silly what you can choose. Yeah. How is it shooting an interactive one? Isn't that kind of weird to shoot an interactive one when you're always to shoot two ways? Yeah. How the, it makes it very confusing. The logistics of like, wait, what scene was this again? Because is it seen 16 or 17 or 18 because the, you know, this is broken up in the script based on before choice, during choice, after choice. And then there's a whole lot of like, okay, now hold. And the act is, I'll have to hold still. And, you know, it's, it's, it, it makes things complicated. But we, you know, we figured out kind of a rhythm and a routine to streamline it. So it's not so, so awkward anymore. But yeah. Okay. So what was your second vertical? What, okay, I ask in another way. What was your first not interactive vertical you shot? Our first non interactive was called the Virgin and the billionaire. Also on real short, it is, and it is still, it remains our biggest hit. And it was our very first non interactive. But who were the leads in it? Who were the leads in that one? That was Rebecca Stoten and Erin Russell. Yeah. I think I know which one. Yeah. It was very like, like a Cinderella type of a story. She has to work as a maid on her stepmom's house, isn't it? And she works as a maid. She looks exactly like her pseudo sister that is in the house. And so they swap places. Yeah. I saw this one. Yeah. Mostly I saw, as I said, mostly the non interactive ones. I walked in. Yeah. So how did you get even into vertical productions or vertical shoot? How did you get into this vertical crazy vertical world? Yeah, through the interactives. They were looking for over real short. They were looking for an outside production company to work with, specifically on the interactive ones. And I just got a call. And my team, we snow story prior to the rise of verticals. We were a commercial production company. So we do commercials for like Disney and Walmart and Facebook and Pizza Hut and companies like that. And things had been a little slow during the writer's strike, the sag strike. And so when I got a call about doing this low budget thing and I was like, gosh, that's the budget that we normally have for like a one day commercial shoot. But you know what, sure, we'll try it out. We'll see if we can make it work and I called up my team and I was like, hey, do you guys want to do this? And they were like, sure, yeah, let's try it. And we did, we did an order of three for our first three. And those three went so well. You know, pregnant by my ex's dad was a pretty big hit for real short. And so they decided to do more. And before you knew it, we were doing like three or four a month for real short there. At the, by the end of 2024. And yeah, that, that's how we got in. We kind of stumbled. I think the same way a lot of people got into verticals with this. They just kind of got a call and stumbled into it and one thing led to another and before you know it, we've, I think we've made more now than any, any production company in, in the US at least. No. So did you know what verticals were at that time? No, no, when I got the call, I had never heard of a vertical. I never, I don't think actually when, when we first started, I don't think anyone was calling them verticals yet. I don't think I remember hearing that term until midway through 2024 that people are calling these verticals now. We, because when we put out the casting notice for those first, for those first few, there wasn't like a vertical category like we were like, how do we, how do we put this? We're going, we're just going to call it like a movie, you know, and, and, and, and, and, of course, you know, the casting people had a million questions like, what is this? Why are there so many intimacy scenes like, like, we, we want to know who you guys are. What is this about, you know, because it, it raised a lot of red flags for them because of the kind of content. Of course, they're not that raunchy, you know, you know, you've seen them. They're, they're, they're spicy, but they're not compared to the latest verticals. They, the verticals of twa, we spoke recently in the monthly recap, the verticals of 2022, 2024, when the storyline so much better, not so violent, you, you, okay, there was also kind of slapping and stuff like that, but there was not so many violence. There was not so many stupid banquet scenes. There was not so many raping, kidnapping, blood, stuff like that. The 2024 verticals were much more entertaining, like the latest, really. Yeah, we've, we've managed to somehow steer clear of a lot of those types of scripts that you're talking about. I've heard about them a lot and Casey Jackson, who's one of our directors, has, has been offered a few, and turned down a few projects that were just really gratuitously violent. But we've managed to not even have those scripts come across on my desk. - But that's good. But that's good because lately, there were some really red flags in the verticals where the children are slapping the adults and didn't get disciplined and really, and where animals and pets were murdered in a really creepy way in the first- - I know, yeah. - I've heard of that. That's awful. - I give you a tip. Listen to the lately monthly recap we spoke. - Yeah. - And that's why we are grieving for kind of going back to storylines like 2024 because okay, there was slapping. There was a bit, you know, back stepmom steps as to this kind of trope. It was really fine, but not so really badly shitty like the latest story, really. And that's why we are also grieving for kind of new genre. Because for example, I'm really excited about the pirate verticals were shot lately, there were two shot lately. And I'm sure that or not the pirate chip there is a 40 episode end quote scene, you know? (laughing) That's not good. - Probably not. Not on the pirate's shot. - No, the chance is good that it's not this kind of trope happening in this vertical. And if you are watching so long, like me, for example, the story are so often repeating. Oh, I know exactly in some verticals after five episodes what will happen to the end because I saw it a few times. And then it's not entertaining anymore, you know? - Yeah, I'm a little baffled by it. I mean, I guess we see the same thing in Hollywood, one big asteroid movie comes out and then all of a sudden two or three other big asteroid movies come out and so you see trends like that. And it makes sense in the vertical space for people to kind of do that too to see, ooh, this hockey romance is working. Let's make 12 more hockey romances. (laughing) But I don't get it, you know? And certainly you get diminishing returns when you're talking about a Xerox, a Xerox, a Xerox, you know? People love the original and maybe they want to watch something similar and so it's an easy layup but I think it's much more interesting to make some more original stuff. And you know, there's thousands of these romance verticals. I think there's so many different stories that you can tell that I think that there's a lot more left in the well before we need to start regurgitating in my mind. - Can you tell me why there haven't been so many verticals with kind more down to earth story? I don't need always the CEO billionaire and auctions where it's 20 billion for this jewelry. I don't need that. I would love to see more, you know, the color worker who fell is in love with, I don't know, another down to earth, you know, the typical normal relationships. - Yeah, I don't know to be honest. I know a lot of these guys are really, really chained to the data. They are really constantly analyzing the data of what is working and what is not working. And they know more than I do about that stuff and something in that data is telling them, hey, billionaire's works, CEOs works. But I do think, I think maybe what they're missing too is like if everybody's working on that formula, everybody's working on that formula, you've got, it's always nice to be the only person over here doing this other thing because then you're unique, you know? If there's 40 different billionaire CEO storylines, then you're gonna watch, you know, maybe the two or three or five, maybe even 10 best, but 30 of them are gonna like, or yeah, are gonna go unseen. Whereas if you're the one person over here doing something a little bit different, you stand out from the crowd a little bit more and maybe, you know, maybe it's a risk, but. Do you see that the big platforms are willing to take the risk for new storylines? Yes and no. It's different with different of the apps and I wanna, you know, not say too much here. - Yeah. - But all of them are willing to take risks in some way, shape or form. Now, the newer apps, I think that they have to be more cautious. Because they're new, they have to, they have to make sure that they're turning a profit. So they're much more inclined to look over at what the big guys are doing and do things that are guaranteed hits to help them grow. Because they're ultimately trying to become one of the big guys until they have that kind of cash flow. They can't afford to have even a few flops. The big guys, on the other hand, they have much more of that data analysis. They have much more of a finger on the pulse. And for them, I think it's a matter of low hanging fruit. You know, as long as this fruit is still good and is still right there for the picking, it's a lot easier for them to do. But it seems like all of those guys, you know, whether it's real shorts or drama box or flare flow or my drama or the big guys, they're setting aside a little portion over here to take risks. That's what. And so, you know, I don't know where or how they decide which risks to take, but I know that they are doing it. But it's only a small subset. It's this stuff is this stuff that we know works. And then we're going to put this much over here into trying, you know, throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. So hopefully some of it sticks and we'll see some new genres and some interesting stuff. Yeah, you know, you mentioned my drama. My drama is special because they have always new storylines. They, you don't find the classic tropical, vertical tropes. And for example, I don't know if you ever watched a Ukrainian produced vertical? Yeah, I've watched a few of them. And it's so good of them in storyline and producing. They are so good. And for me, it's hard to believe they even film it in the middle of a war and they can put out such a good quality, you know. So. Yeah, I think, well, I think that the, I think the dollar, I know they have much longer number of days of shooting. I think that the dollar just goes a little bit further in a, you know, country that's experiencing some pretty dire difficulties at the moment where they're able to get a lot more bang out of their buck. Whereas in America, everything is very, very expensive. And so do you think that's the reason why every show which is produced in Europe is so good because all the shows which were produced in Turkey are also so fantastic on drama pops. You can. And on every show on drama pops and you never get disappointed. Yeah, it's definitely a matter of the dollar just going further. They can shoot for more days. And more days means fewer pages that they have that they have to get in a day. It means more money for things like stunts and locations and and stuff like that, all of which is, you know, cheaper over there. So I mean, I've heard wonderful things about those guys over there. Obviously, I don't know exactly how how they do things and how their books work. But I know they're, you know, in America, things are just more expensive than they are in Europe, especially Eastern Europe or Turkey or some of these other places. Yeah, it's a little bit, a lately shot of you what it calls Lithuania. Yeah, another reason for you to make your. I know. I know. Agreed. Agreed. We're working on it. We want to be over in some of those places so that we can have access to being able to have longer shoots, better production value. And more takes. You know, if you have fewer pages to shoot in a day, that means you get to, you get to have three, four, ten takes to get that better performance that you want. Do you know another point for Germany is candy jar, it's based in Germany. Really? I didn't know that. Yes. If you are going to their imprint on the website, you see that they are in Berlin. Hmm, I really did not know that. And candy jar, for example, produces only stories based on books. Huh. You didn't know that too, huh? I did not know that. No. Candy jar is one that we have not worked with yet. So. Maybe you should give it a try. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you should convince him, yeah, I can shoot that in Germany. That would be two birds with one stone. A win-win for both of us, you know? That's right. That's right. Well, I mean, I think before long, you're going to see the verticals popping up in every country. Like, already you're seeing a ton of them in America, a ton of them in Canada in the UK. Asia. Look in Asia. Oh, I mean, obviously tons and tons of in Asia. And just about every country in Asia. And all over Eastern Europe, you're starting to see them pop up in Central and South America and the Caribbean. And like, it's just such a phenomenon that's happening that they're popping up everywhere. And I'm excited to see it. I think that this is something that is really challenging everybody's expectations of what kind of entertainment people want to watch and how people want to watch it. And I think the facts are the data's in. People want to watch stuff on their phone. They want to watch stuff on the go. And this is as much as everybody complains about, you know, oh, are we shrinking attention spans or whatever? Look, the people are already watching, you know, TikTok videos or YouTube shorts or whatever. This is that. But now instead of just scrolling to the next one, and the next one, the next one, the next one, you're continuing a story. This is lengthening attention spans. To be honest, since I started watching verticals, I never used my TV again. And well, and I think that that's a great point. People are turning off their TV so that they can watch stuff on their phone. And it's not just that it's on your phone. It's also that the kind of stories that people are telling on your phone are superior in some way, you know, some way to what you're watching on TV. I think that TV has gotten kind of bloated and, and like the stories take too long, they're drawn out. They're not tight. They're not tight. They're not fast. They're not moving. And I think straight to the point. Yeah. My wife and my brother and sister in law, when they were visiting over Christmas, they started watching this K-Drama. And I caught a little bit of it. And I was like, this is a vertical, but it's for TV. And I'm hearing more and more that these K-Dramas are just blowing up. And I think that it's because people want fast-paced stuff that doesn't feel like it's wasting your time by drawing out. So much of TV takes like a three-minute scene and turns it into a 10-minute scene, or takes a one-minute scene and turns it into a three-minute scene. And it's like, stop wasting my time. Verticals for all the bad things that everybody says about them. They don't waste your time. They value your time. And they appreciate you giving them your time. And so they're giving you something every minute. Yeah, take a look. And I think that's how often the first 10 episodes are so overloaded with story line because you want to get hooked. The audience and so much is happening in the first 10 episodes that you cannot. Sometimes if the verticals really good, I'm very disappointed when I'm straight at the end. It's like, what, really? There was the last episode? No. No. No. No, simply no. And it's so easy to watch it everywhere, you know? Even when you're going to the gym and you're doing kind of cardio, you can watch it. It's easy, easy to watch it everywhere. And that's why I like it so much. Because on the TV, you always have to sit down at the couch at home. And you cannot do it simply when you're just in the mood to take a look, you know? Yeah. And in retrospect, it's really funny that it took so long for this to develop. You know, we've had these smartphones that were capable of this for over a decade. Now, and it's, it's, it's, it seems so obvious now that, of course, people want to watch things on the go and they want to watch things that are, are fantasies that are, that are wishful filaments that, that are an escape. TV has, TV and movies have gotten so bleak. I think that people in Hollywood, in my industry, they've forgotten that people, people want to check out. They want to forget about their problems for a minute. They don't want to get bogged down in more problems. They've got enough problems out as it is. You know, and these, these verticals, they're, they're an escape. They're, they're, they're a fantasy. They're, they're a moment that you don't have to worry about your mortgage or what your boss needs from you. You can just fall into these things and, and have a good time, you know, enjoying a, a fantastic storyline with a, with a love interest and a, and a dynamic characters. What do you think what improvement is needed in the vertical industry though? Or what changes? It's hard to say because certainly there is need for improvement. Like I, I, I am seeing them improve all the time. Like what, what, the production value, the, the quality of acting, from the time that we first got involved now has gone up exponentially. Like what, what passed for like a good vertical in the early days was really clunky and disjointed and, you know, felt terrible. And, and compared to now they really look cinematic and, and fantastic. You know, I, I think, I think we're going to see a lot of, of, of an explosion of news genres, here in the next couple of years, I think that that's very much on the horizon. And that's very needed because like, you know, the, the romance stuff that we're seeing is great. But now we're pumping out a gazillion of them. And, and there needs to be a little more variety. So you can have your escape in the form of a, of a, of a whirlwind romance. Or you can have your escape in like an Indiana Jones type adventure, you know, or, yeah. I would love to see criminal ones. Yeah, criminal ones, comedies, even sci-fi. You know, there's some period stuff. Yeah, there were some, but lately not anymore. Yeah. But I, I think that we're going to see a lot of that. And that's one way that I want to see the, the industry kind of develop. I think that writers, and it's hard to say exactly, exactly in what way this is going to take shape. But I think that the writing is getting better. People are starting to understand the, the formula, what, what makes a good vertical. And, and, and are getting better at that. And I think they're only going to get even better at that in the next couple of years. I think that, that you're going to see stuff that is even tighter, even more just pulls you in. And it's fun to watch and, and really gives you everything that you're looking for out of a vertical. I think that we're, in a couple of years, you're going to be able to look back at the stuff that was coming out in 2024, 2025. And go, wow, I can't believe we liked that stuff because it's gotten so much better. But not because that stuff was bad, but it's gotten so much better. That's, that's my hope, that's my expectation. But it's hard to say exactly how that's going to take shape. I think that this is kind of the Wild West and everybody's still just kind of figuring out how it works. And, you know, they'll, they'll, they'll continue to figure out how it works. What do you think about that the big companies are now trying to get into this vertical space is also, you know, kind of the big money. We heard lately that the big film companies are streaming like Netflix stuff like that. Want to try to get into the vertical space? Do you think that would be good or not so? I think it'll be good. And for a few different reasons. One, I think honestly, the more different people that are involved in in the vertical industry, the better, you know, the, the more. The competition. Yeah, well, it means, you know, it means, you know, the dominant forces, the real shorts and drama boxes are going to have to fight to keep their positions. They're going to have to evolve. They're going to have to improve. They're going to have to get better. Listen to their audience more where, you know, otherwise they might not have to, you know. I also think that it's meaningful that the American companies are getting involved, I think, because what you see mostly right now in the vertical industry is it's tech people. They're, they're people that their world is is apps and, you know, iPhone stuff and tech related stuff. They're not really film people. And I think now that Hollywood is taking an interest. I think that there's certainly a danger. I will say in Hollywood coming in and trying to turn. articles into Hollywood. Yeah. And I don't think that that's a good idea. They do have to keep in mind that these are verticals and that some of the things that they see as being bad are actually features, not bugs. And that they, you know, the whole Chesterton's fence metaphor, like, you know, don't remove the fence just because you're not, if you're waiting, figure out why the fence is there before you try to remove it. But if they do that, if they're careful, if they pay attention and they seek to learn about verticals and why they're working and how they're working, I think that they are going to elevate the format in a way that I don't think would occur to the tech-minded guys that are running some of the other companies. And like I said, the rising tide lifts all ships by those American companies, by the way, those former Hollywood folks lifting, elevating the format, the other guys are going to be forced to elevate if they want to keep up. So I think, I think Hollywood getting involved, I think new companies getting involved is ultimately going to improve the format as a whole, for sure. But if I would be a witch and I would say to you, listen, you have now one wish free for the vertical space, what do you, what would be your wish? Gosh, that is a good question and I do not have an answer ready for it. What would be my one wish for the vertical industry? That it, and I, okay, here's my wish and I also think my wish is going to come true. That it would lead to a renaissance in the film industry. I think that there's something special about verticals and that they are, they are a much needed, like Hollywood has been stagnating for a long time and I think that this is the first big, fresh change that's happened in Hollywood in a really long time and the pendulum has, has maybe overswung, sure, because they're silly and they're this and they're that and they have terrible low, low budgets and insane shooting schedules and all of this stuff. And I hope that that will swing back, but I think that just by verticals being here, Hollywood is never going to be the same. I think that verticals are a much needed, like breath of fresh air, a whole different direction that can help Hollywood find its way and that Hollywood and verticals will work in conjunction, not in competition with each other because I feel like it's, it's a, they're very different things, you know? I want to watch something different on the big screen in a dark theater with my Bolo popcorn than I do, you know, on my phone on the go while I am waiting for the bus or something. And so I want two different things, but I think that the way that verticals, that fast pace, that streamlined budget, I think that that can teach Hollywood a lot and I think that Hollywood can can can help raise, like I was saying before, I think that I think that they'll end up benefiting each other and I think that we're going to see, we're going to see the kind of creativity that we haven't seen in a really long time. How long have people been complaining about Hollywood just putting out another sequel or prequel or reboot or the same IP over and over and what are verticals, but all original, every single vertical, not one of them is based on an existing IP. They're all their own thing and I think that Hollywood has needed that fresh blood for a long time. So I hope that I'm right, but if I have one wish, it's that all of this, this magic will rub off on each on each other and that we will have a better Hollywood and better verticals and we will see the kind of creativity and storytelling that hasn't existed in a long time in the film world. What do you love on producing verticals? What makes it so special for you? You know, I am just a guy that likes making movies and telling stories and capturing things in film and the way that you can tell a story through the medium of film is so different from what you're able to tell on a book or just by telling you a story around the campfire or something. There's something magical about the film industry. It grabbed me from a young age and getting to make films for a living, getting to tell story through this medium is something special and something that I, you know, a lot of times I get bogged down in the day to day and I'm so tired and I'm so exhausted and then I have to remind myself every once in a while that like I get to do something that I dreamed of doing as a kid that you almost never think is really going to be possible and here I am doing it and doing a lot of it and that's awesome. So that's what I love about it is it's the thing that I always wanted to do. It's the thing I always dreamed that I would do and verticals are different. It's a different way of doing it but I've really embraced the vertical format. I think that it's fun and cool and inventive and it's exciting to be a part of that reinvention of Hollywood that I was talking about. I feel like somehow I stumbled into being one of the four runners of this huge shake-up in the industry and it's exciting to be a part of it. It feels like a whirlwind like I don't know which way is up and you know it's exhausting but it's also really exciting. Yeah, I can believe that. I want to ask you one more question because before I will ask you the five question quickly I'm always asking and do you watch your own produced verticals or have you ever watched a vertical from the beginning to the end? Yes, I don't watch all of them because we just put out way too many shows for me to be able to watch all of them but I do watch a lot of them and I do watch a lot of the ones that we don't produce too. Which genre you prefer? You know what? Honestly, I really like the young adult stuff because to me it feels very like 90s. Oh, right on Candyjar. Candyjar had dropped lately so many young adults. But they're fun. They feel like Disney Channel stuff. You know, like I like them. Like Hannah Montana. Yeah, yeah. So you are really special when you're saying that you're watching your own verticals because to every director I spoke or every actor actress, the most of them said no, I'm not watching that. I don't need to take work with me home. I know exactly how it was. No, no, I'm not watching that. Okay. I get it again. Do you want to have use about your produced verticals? Are you reading your own verticals? Not all the time but when I catch that, when I see them, I get excited and I read them. Yeah. Oh, well. Interesting. Fenty. Yeah. So five questions. Do other people not as that unique too? Like, you know, I'm always curious what do people think of our stuff, you know? Yeah. You know, for example, Kirby, I would tell me she's, she loves reading the reviews because she wants to know how she can improve and how she, you know, what the people are thinking about the stuff she's doing. But for mostly of the actors, the job is done on the last shooting day. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, maybe they maybe they are taking a look. What kind of special scenes, how they turned out because they're curious about how it turned out in the end. And then they are taking a short look, especially on one, two scenes. But for most of them, it's done after it. But on the other side, reading reviews, some of the actresses are directors. I love, I love love really reading the reviews because they say, yeah, I want to know the opinions. And people have about it. But you know, it's always different. I know from a lot of reviews. And that's why I love to talk with my review ladies in a monthly recap about also the crap of the month, you know? I know from a lot of review pages that they are only posting the review. For example, they have a ranking from one till five. They are only putting reviews when they are more than three point five in the ranking. Yeah, that is one nice thing is so I tend to not have to read any bad. reviews. Whenever I see it, it's always because they liked it and so they wanted to put out a review. And that's really nice of them. There's a whole lot of critics who have made careers on being, "This was terrible. Oh, I hated it. It's the worst. Don't watch it." And they could do that. And they'd probably get more clicks, but they're really kind. No, it's not about the clicks. We are in the month of Recap. We are giving constructive critic. You know what I mean? We are talking why exactly we don't like to watch it or what in our opinion was a bit shitty because sometimes the story and stuff is good, but the post-production ruined the whole vertical. It's not comfortable to watch because the sound is shitty or I don't know, stuff like that. On the other side, there are story lines, as I said, before crossing really lines with the story lines lately. So I think it's also important that we are talking about why we don't like some kind of stories. It doesn't, in my opinion, it doesn't make sense to say, "Yeah, and that's shit." No one. Yeah, you know. If I don't like anything, I got asked often from actor actress or directors that said, "Mei ami, eila, a new show of mine will drop. Would you mind watching it and giving me your opinions?" I'm not posting reviews on Instagram. I'm giving them my opinion in an email in three points. Kind of, how was the cast, how was the story, storyline, and how was my impression of the production side, like sound costumes? I don't know. So these are not typical short and review. It's more, but if I don't like anything, I'm always giving you a reason why I didn't like it. So then, in my opinion, it's good to know also for the producer director, actresses, because otherwise they cannot improve. You know? Right. You have to make a difference. If I'm saying only, "No, that's shit," or if I'm saying, "That's shit because of." So that's why I'm asking, "No." And I know that a lot of reviewers are only posting because they don't want to upset someone. They are only posting stuff they like. So yeah, it's not so kind of the real picture you can get about all this stuff because, as you said, most of the time you can only read the nice ones. So yeah. Yeah, we will see. So five question, quicky. All right, let's do it. Lightning round. What's your favorite dish? What do you love to eat? I am all about seafood. So I choose seafood generally if I'm allowed. But if I have to pick exactly snow crab legs, I'm a crab legs guy. Can you cook? I can cook, actually. Yeah. I'm a very good cook. Have you ever pleaded for cooking? I'm so third. So it comes like you're not allowed to, you can't grow up in the South and not learn how to be a good cook. You may not know this about the U.S. But all of the best cooking in the U.S. comes from the Southeast. Really? Oh yeah. That's where soul food, if you've heard of soul food. Yeah. That's where that comes from. Like fried chicken, you know, colored greens, you know, all the good stuff. You know, it's nothing healthy. But all pasting good. Have you ever been in Germany and tasted German food? I have never been to Germany. We have also here really great stuff to eat. I have heard that. Also in the South. I'm living in the South. Yeah. Hit fits with the South is coming the good food. Yeah. Makes sense. So have you ever produced a cooking vertical? No. The baking one. Not the baking. But baking. It's the same discussion I had lately with Ryan Larson. He said, yeah, I can cook. Didn't you see the cinemas rolls? That's not cooking. That's baking. That's the same. No, it's not. No. Okay. And my wife will tell you for certain because I'm the cook in the family and she's the baker in the family and I can't bake whatsoever. If I say that she can't cook, I'd get into trouble. She can cook. So I'm the better cook. I'm the better cook. Don't say that. Beep. She's ready. No, she has she has a good cook. But I I am a better cook. Oh, I think she would agree with that. I don't mean that that's not a knock again. I'm the better one. Okay. I like cooking. It's okay. Yeah. Cooking is great. I published a cookbook. So I don't cook. Yeah. German food. Yeah. Yes. So second question. I know it's kind of a typical question. Maybe you've got to ask, do you have yourself a comfort movie you love to rewatch when you're in a bad mood or stuff like that or a movie you can rewatch a thousand times because every time it fascinates you watching it. Yes. Aliens. The second one by James Cameron. I watch it. I have probably watched that movie a thousand times. Really? Yeah. I just I think it's a great movie. Every I love it every time. I love the characters in it. And it is it is sometimes my kind of go to movie. If I'm feeling kind of down, you know, it's it's one that I'll just put on mostly because I've seen it so many times. I watch it so much as a kid, but it's aliens. Is it possible for you to watch a movie kind of neutral and not thinking about? No, I would have done this another way. No, no, they they maybe could have done it in shooting way. No, are you a critical watcher or can you simply enjoy a movie without thinking about the whole production production stuff behind? You know, it's funny, but I I think that I can and it is typically it's typically my wife who's like, oh, why did they do this? Oh, they shouldn't have done that. And I'm like, stop. Can I can't we just like like turn your ring off? Can we super watch that please? Yeah, let's let's just watch the movie, but I used to be like that. And I don't know what changed. Maybe I just I like it got too exhausting or something and I just now I just I kind of just turn my brain off every you know, don't get me wrong. If it's really bad, I'll be like I would you would do this and that and whatever, but if it's really good or even if it's like mediocre, I'll just kind of be like yeah, it's okay. You can simply enjoy it. Yeah, yeah, I think that's the best way. And what music type are you? What do you like music? Classic rock, you know, like 70s, 70 80s, 90s was my era. So like that alt alternative genre stuff from the 90s I was I was really into and I still still still really like. So like the food fighters and stuff like that? Actually not the food fighters specifically no offense to the food fighters, but I'm not not a big food fighter fan. I'm a big Led Zeppelin fan. I read out chili peppers. Chili peppers is good. That's very good. Yeah, I like them a lot. Who are my who are my go to go to bands? Green day, you know, you put me on the spot. Bush is one another of my favorites. Sublime. A lot of that like 90s. Yeah, I like Brian Adams. I also, you know, and that's that's more like soft rock to me, but I like I like that soft rock that you got in the 90s that kind of only existed then it seems like. Yeah, and it was the best time for music. In that case, you know, I grew up with the music from the 80s and 90s. Yeah, it's the best. And the music now is not so good. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But to be honest, when I'm giving I'm a lecturer at the university and my students are now around about 19 years old. They don't know what good music is. They have this electro synthesized shit. But my kids just want to listen to K-pop demon hunters over and over and over and over and over. But then they're they're three. So, you know, that their musical taste will will hopefully evolve. Hopefully. We'll see. So two questions left. If I will come to you and would say a question, which one of your verticals I should definitely have watched. What would you tell me? Am I only allowed to pick one or how many am I allowed to pick one? You did 60. So, you're you're fine to do a top three. Well, I mean, you already said that you've watched CEO in the country girl. So I'm going to skip that. I would normally say CEO in the country girl because it's wonderful. And it it it's just cute and nice and hard. I close you on. Yeah, it is. I've heard I will admit that I have not seen one of the ones that I have not seen is called Stolen Sun on Drama Shorts. That was directed by Casey Jackson and it's supposed to be just absolutely fantastic. I have seen a few scenes from it and I was really impressed by those scenes. It really feels cinematic in a way that very few verticals do. Is it when do you know around about when it dropped? - Probably like November, I wanna say, I've last shared. - Oh, it's kind of new or one, okay. - Yeah. - It might have been October, but I think it was November. - Yeah, I think I haven't seen it. - Yeah, bad biker is another one. - I saw that one. - It's a good girl bad biker, which you said you have seen is another one that we're really proud of. And you know what, selfishly, I'm gonna say, you gotta watch "Sweetest Challenge" because it's the baking one, I directed it myself, and so I love it. It's very cute. Hopefully it's a very cozy watch. - Which platform was that again? - That one's another drama shorts. - One more shorts, okay. - We do a lot with those guys. And I, okay, now I've gone way past three, but you've seen a bunch of these already, so they don't count. But, - I really, I loved, in particular, called, I think it's true era saves high school on real short. It's a young adult one, and again, I'm partial to the young adult ones, but it was just really cute. The girl that's the lead is really fantastic. I think it was her first vertical. I could be wrong about that. I don't hate me if I'm wrong about that. But she was so good. The villain was so good. The rivalry between the two girls, the main girl and her bully, was just really fun. And it just had like a, I don't know, that one to me was very what I was talking about, feeling very Disney Channel, feeling very fun and silly. I really liked that one a lot. That's, it's one of my favorites. It's probably not even cracks our top 10 best, but it was one that I really liked. Oxel. - I haven't seen this one. - Yeah. - It wasn't a big deal. - To be honest, I haven't watched lately a lot on real short, because they put out so many shows, but more quantity than quality, you know? - I've heard that lately about them, yeah. - So that's a reason why I don't have actually, at the moment a membership for real short. - Yeah. - And you know, there are so many platforms, I cannot purchase an every platform membership. Oh, holy crap. And I'm bankrupt. - Yeah, there are a lot of them. It is mind-boggling how many different apps there are nowadays. - And they're coming up so much more. - Yeah. - Every time I see a new ad on Instagram, I get shown a new ad. I have the feeling that it comes also with a new platform. - Yeah. - Oh. - That definitely feels like it, yeah, for sure. - Who's thinking about the audience who had to purchase money to watch shows? There are more than 200 platforms. - Yeah. - That's really silly. So last question. - Okay. - genre, you wanna see more on you in the vertical space or do more. - Well, that's tough. I'm a comedy guy. And so what I wanna see is comedy. I think that good comedy could be really good in a vertical format for your phone. You already see YouTube shorts with really funny little sketches. - I would love to see a parody. - I think that there's a way. - I would love to see a parody about shooting a vertical. (laughs) - You know? - You know, I have pitched a few different companies. Like, hey, guys, you gotta do the parody. Like this would be huge. Everyone would watch it. And, you know, so far nobody has taken the bait on that. - I can tell you absolutely, yes. - It would be huge. Like they don't understand. And we wanna make it. And I guarantee every single vertical star would be like lining up to be in that one because they would wanna do it so bad. - Oh yes. - But personally, now, and that said, I don't know if comedy is quite right yet. I think that maybe it doesn't quite match the business model that they have. - You have to write your own script in the comedy because you cannot use a comedy script from China. - Yeah, but that's definitely not work. - But that's just me selfishly because that's the genre that I like making the most. And that's the genre that I have done the most with my commercials and stuff like that. I tend to be a comedy guy. - And you will find a lot of actor and actresses for that I can tell you because everyone I'm asking in the five question quickly, exactly this question, which genre, it's mostly every time comedy. - Yeah, yeah. I think it would be fun. Everybody would love it. It would be a good time. But it's comedy's hard to write, you know? So it's a whole new, whole new ball game and would be tough. - If I were in the lottery and I would come to you and say, Austin, listen, I've $400,000. Can you make me a comedy vertical? Would you do that? - In a second, no question. - No, just asking, you know, maybe someday that will happen. - Let me know, keep me posted. If you got, whenever you find the money, let's make it. - But then we have to produce it in Germany, okay? - Deal. - Good. That's really good. - Lie over a couple of hilarious comedians and we'll round up all the funniest people in Germany and we'll shoot it in a castle and it'll be awesome. (laughing) - Everyone is expecting, oh, a nice castle. Oh yeah, it's time caps you along and then there is. (laughing) - Yeah, yeah. - Well, it'll be like a time travel when a couple of fish out of water. - Hasn't there been a comedy one out of Robin Hood? Was he called Man in Tights or Stuffed Hots? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Man in Tights, yeah, yeah. - Right? - There was a time capsule comedy. - Yeah, and it's great, it's a classic. - Yeah, I love it. I really love it. Okay, so we have a plan, 2026. Maybe we will be our year, huh? - I think so. I think that this is, I keep telling people, 2024, we were flying under the radar. It felt like every time we talked to somebody, they were like, what are our verticals? I've never heard of that. 2025 is the year that everybody kind of like took notice of what we were doing. What is this vertical stuff? And 2026 feels like it's gonna be the year that it just explodes. It is, this whole thing is just blowing up and-- - I hope you're right. - 2026 is gonna be wild. - I hope you are right. I hope. We will see. Austin, I thank you so much for your time. And talking to me, it was really a pleasure. And I'm still hoping you keep going, putting out some great verticals. - Thank you. And likewise, it's been wonderful talking to you. I'm gonna try it. Misha eila. - No. Misha eila. Misha eila. - Yeah, that's fair. - Okay, all right, close, I got close. I'm pretty close. - But I will ask you, if I would ask you in one hour again, you forgot it already. I could tell you. - Misha eila. Misha eila. - Misha eila. - Misha eila. - Misha eila. - Misha eila. - No, not as, not as, it's, Misha eila. - Misha eila. - Maybe a bit here. (Misha laughing) - I'm bad at German, it's established. - Another reason to come over. - Yes, and try the fantastic food. - You know, there are only reasons to come over. - Yeah, I agree. I've never been and that's sad. I would like to cure that sometime. So let's make it happen. - If you ever ever coming over, let me know. - Comedy, comedy in Germany in a castle. - I will, I will make the catering. - Done. Well, it's gonna be good then because you've written a cookbook. - And I cooked in different TV shows here in Germany also for two stormish alarm chefs. - Oh wow. That's very impressive. - I was invited to see TV shows here in Germany to cook for them and get judged by them. - Oh wow, how did they judge you? Good, I assume I hope. - The dog who died lately, I bought from the first money prize I got from a judge in a TV cooking show. - Wow, so you did win the grand prize. - And I have downstairs in my kitchen. I got honored with the kind of metal. It's called "Plate of the Day". It's a dish, really expensive dish. It's with "Plate of the Day". And I have it downstairs in my kitchen, lightened up and kind of, and from every TV cooking show, I was totally in four of them. I have kind of hollow fame in my kitchen with pictures from every TV cooking show and the prices of the dishes. I got there and stuff like that. Yeah. Very cool. Well, congratulations. Now, I will do the caring. And maybe I will hopefully get a little role that I can do also kind of acting stuff. Of course. Yeah, of course. But I will do the catering. You know, I was told from other actors and directors when I'm asking them what's a must on set. They are always saying good food. Yeah. Yeah. So that's true. That is a film industry-wide well-known fact. Yeah. So I can take care of this. And maybe we can drop it then to Candy jar, you know? OK. Yeah. Well, if there are offices with there, why not? Seems like it seems like a match made in hell. We can knock and say, hey, listen, we were doing a great stuff shit. You should, because I'm sure Candy jar is more willing to take some new risks for new stuff. Yeah. OK, we have a plan, Austin. We have a plan. We will talk in one year again on the plan, go. No, no, it'll be sooner than that. We'll make it happen sooner than that. No, no, no. We know. We will talk in a year again that we can tell everyone where to watch it, you know? There you go. That's much better. Much better. That's a plan. We can make an advertising episode for our vertical end, OK? That's right. That's good. Thank you very much. And have a nice day. You as well. It was a pleasure. Thanks for having me on. Bye-bye. This is Rap on this episode. And I hope you tune in again. 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