#62: Jeremy Lim – Of Relaunches, Malaysian Monoculture & Pseudo-Intellectualism

It's your boy, Rochelle Gomez, and welcome. Welcome to the Ruma Roy podcast. You should be welcome back, isn't it? That's true. Welcome back to the Ruma Roy podcast. This is a long coming. - Hmm. - Damn. So we've already started the podcast technically. - Audience totally needed to know that, guys. - Yeah. If you're watching on video, we have video now, by the way. You can see from our Starbucks cups that it's already empty. So you can kind of tell how long we've been sitting and getting things, right? Anyway, I'm joined by a very special guest, my good friend for this first episode, or 100 and whatever episode continuation. My good friend. - My good friend. You've been doing podcast episodes. - Yeah. - In the interim. My good friend Jeremy Lim, welcome back. - Thank you. - Thank you for joining me for this return episode. So, yeah, for those who have been listening or those who are new for the first time, maybe we can introduce ourselves, introduce the podcast and let's see where it goes from here. So you wanna start? - Yeah. (laughs) - A long time associate. And then not associate host of the role, right? (laughs) - What else do I do? What day job? A hiring researcher. That's not terribly exciting. - Yeah. - Ruma, exciting stuff is really-- - We started the podcast in 2020. - Yeah. - So then, you hadn't done your masters yet at that moment? - No, I was still working in an NGO in one of the private universities in Malaysia. Don't need to name their names, okay? - Yeah. - And since then, you've gotten your masters. - And then gone back to that same private university. (laughs) - But at least you're higher-qualified. - Yeah, maybe. - So you did your masters in Cambridge. - I feel like I should know this, but are you continuing with your doctorate? Are you planning to-- - I do my PhD at UM. You have wonderful institution. Please sponsor us. Okay, anyway. - Then not do that in this lifetime, bro. (laughs) - Okay, so work, studying any extra curricular activities. - No. - These days, the PhD takes up so much of my life. I call it Learn Math. The Math that you don't wanna do. It call to me is no one I'm talking about. Everybody else will be like, why are you doing Math? Like, what does it have to do with anything? But like, you know, let's not go there. Don't wanna think about it on a weekend. So the revolution is not coming any time soon. - No man, I have to do math. At least one or two and a half. There we are. There we are. We're all out. Okay. So my name is Roshan. I am a lawyer, my profession. I have my own firm, a little modest set up. Should we say that we're sitting in your firm? - Yeah. Yeah. So that's maybe it. I think we need to explain that the podcast used because the Ruma Roy podcast, because it was recorded in Ruma Roy. Roy is my father, so Roy's house. If you wanted to come to my house, you would go to the security guard and say, Ruma Roy and you come in. So it was kind of like the inside, nice name for the podcast. Now, it's like, you know, when Brickfield's Asia College, then they went to PJ. (laughing) It kind of like, - It's a kept their name. - It kept their name. But, you know, so it's like, I guess something like that. I got a little bit of feedback and everyone said they liked the name. Okay. So I just decided to stick with it. I was thinking of whether to relaunch and start from zero and get a new name, but you got the back at the lot also. - So yeah. - You know, it doesn't hurt. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so lawyer by profession. Now, podcast, what else do people know about me? That's about it, I guess. I serve in church, Jew in dry church. - Yeah, in dry church. - Most people don't, to be honest. - Yeah. I'm a Catholic boy. Catholic boy. We'll get into that. But yeah, I just happy to be back again. We are joined by our producer, Ryan Tay. Welcome to the club. - You don't have his own mic, no, sir. We need to get that. Actually, we need to rectify that. You should get your own mic as well. Chippin once in a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll set that up. Maybe steps, maybe steps. - Yeah. So, yeah, we're excited about plans. I mean, I do not to blow my own trumpet, but even till now, I do get people who, like talk to me about the podcasts, or lead, like, I heard the early days when you had like super fans. - Yeah. - I was really like enthusiastic and it was cute, but I was like, that's weird, bro. (laughing) Bro, don't dease the super fans. - No, I have to. - Yeah, I'll feature Patreon. - Can I exploit parasocial relationships for your monetary gain? I know. People investing in our relationship from like a parasocial, but it's so funny. - It's so strange. - That's so funny. - Yeah, but. - Yeah, so, yeah, so it's been crazy. We started that first episode in 2020. We stopped at, I think somewhere in 2022. - You went on. - Yeah. - No, no, I think we stopped the podcast. - Oh, okay. - You know, I think people should know that you did like so many episodes on the podcast, because I'm thinking back to the, to a few friends who started their podcast, one episode and then Tak Jalan. - Yeah, I did about 100 episodes, I think. - You sure? - I have way of holding on. - I stopped there like 60 years. - I might be wrong, I might be wrong. It might have felt like 100, but. Oh shoot, yeah, you're right. It's 61. - Yeah. - It felt like 100. To be fair, my episode, some of them were like three hours. So if you break it up into one hour blocks, I think we hit 100 episodes. But yeah, 61. So yeah, it was a pretty good end. - It was pretty good. - We released one every week at the point for about 30 to 40 weeks. - Yeah, it was just pretty crazy. - Yeah, and you were there at the beginning, then you were more like a regular character. - Semi-regular, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And hopefully you'll come on again, as we go along most. But I'm just happy to have you here for this first episode. We stopped because at one level, I really wanted the video site to come in, because we had a good following just on audio. But I felt like it was kind of, not to say a ways, but I felt we were limited with just the audio. And I feel video, it'd be better not to say that I'm that good looking, that I'm gonna attract fandom. But hopefully we have, this way we need a camera on Ryan. Ryan is the good looking one here. We need a camera. - I'm gonna grab that one. - We need a cash in on it. (laughing) - Yeah, so I was thinking about like the pair of socials, like kind of thing, because the video does add to that quality a little bit. And I'm like, I don't know. - I don't know, man. I feel like I'm like an Indian uncle. I don't think, I don't see the young ones, you know? I mean, I don't think people see Joe Rogan as their uncle, but like, you know, there's so many people who-- - People see Joe Rogan like a, I don't know, like some-- - It's more like their bro. - Yeah, yeah. - Like a cool cousin. - Yeah, but I'm sure they are podcasts where people listen to their equivalent of like, they're, you know, wise uncle. - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. - Okay, yeah. - I'm like the wise Indian uncle in the mama, just waiting for people to sit down and talk to you and give you unsolicited advice. - Not even 40, yeah. (laughing) - Yeah, I know. So, I mean, we were talking a lot before the podcast and I thought the first episode should be a little bit of a reflection of where we were in 2020, where we are in 2006. And in getting all this ready, you know, working with Ryan on setting everything up, buying equipment, wanting to start up this podcast because it's, I mean, nice that people still remember and reach out to me about the podcast when I'm gonna get it up. But I had this one question of, is there anything to say? You know, is there anything to create, to release to the world and as the world can, as the world even won anything from me, right? In that sense, but. So I thought it would be a good time to reflect, right? Where we were in 2020 terms of the world, society and where we are now, right? Personally, we, when we started that podcast, the first episode we went out late 20s, right? Now we are in our mid, early mid 30s. And things have changed a lot. Yeah, it's crazy. So again, point one, point one, let's start with point one. In 2020, the world stopped, right? It was a nice break, the way on us, 'cause the work was crazy. I don't know how many people who said like, their work was mad. And then the pandemic shut everything down. I don't know, there were people obviously who had, you know, mental health kind of concerns about being stuck indoors. But there were some people whose jobs were like, 12 hours a day suddenly got cut like a little bit. Yeah, I think I felt like a bit like one of those people, 'cause I suddenly couldn't do any of my NGO stuff. I couldn't like be out on the weekends, at talks, like we were just stuck indoors. And I felt like I really like kind of refreshed to myself during that period, funnily enough for the world was, you know, not doing great. Yeah, but the thing is it feels like, it feels like now in 2026, the world is desperately trying to catch up. I mean, the world used to move really fast, like you said before COVID, but it feels like it's even faster now in some ways. You know, I think especially with AI and, with everything like I guess, Saya tak tahu, saya rasa, "Dah, saya rasa kembali ke tempat yang berlaku atau berlaku kembali kemari?" people have learned lessons from COVID dan have learned to smell the roses, and all that. Like, fungeli, macam, saya tak tahu, saya semua berkata, "Sosiali Plugdayan, asociali, asociali, asociali isu-isu-skelepon, Saya rasa, saya rasa, kembali kemari, saya rasa, "Dah, saya rasa kembali kemari, karena. Saya rasa, seperti, jauh-jauh markat yang tak berlaku, kerana COVID-19, sebab banyak orang, sebab macam, apa-apa orang berlaku tentang berapa berlaku, kerana COVID-19? Seperti COVID, orang tak berlaku, mereka tak berlaku, mereka berlaku, bukan? Saya orang yang nak berlaku di academia, dan academia, enak-nya berlaku, kerana berlaku di pandemi. Ya, saya tak tahu tentang lehganan. Да, saya rasa Logosin saja di dunia. sedang di keabur ada kerjaan luar meny dicta-kreis yang gelat. Jika untuk kebi긴 sekarang tapi sudah posture dengar kau udah nggak tahu? Ya, untuk verified! Jadi tropical keberapa yang kamu nak taun Pak Cus Crown, tak banyak! Masalah juga! Nimur itu, habru lagi smis dengan solved. Ya, ini tidak lagi! Jadi, apa yang lebih kata? Mungkin saya belum ada yang berlaku dengan satu yang terbaik yang terbaik. Tapi. Tapi ini adalah semua yang terbaik. Saya membuatkan saya, saya terlalu. saya mencari semuanya. Semuanya semua yang terbaik yang terbaik, saya terlalu membuat. Tapi, saya rasa, saya rasa tidak terbuka untuk mencari kerjaan luar yang terbaik. Di dunia, terbaik yang terbaik. Sudah tentu, kamu mempunyai kebanyakan teknik dan. saya terbuka untuk membuatkan. saya tetap di dunia dan. saya terbuka untuk membuatkan kebanyakan. Jadi, saya sangat berkata. tapi di industri yang terbaik. Saya rasa. saya sangat jenis. tapi banyak yang terbaik. Saya tak rasa mereka terbaik. Okey, jadi. saya rasa. saya berkata kebanyakan teknik yang terbaik. Saya yang terbuka di awal. saya rasa. saya terbuka di industri atau keras. Okey. -Saya sangat terbuka. Mungkin, karena saya. saya orang yang. saya sosialis. saya berkata. saya sosialis. kata-saya. Tapi, pada saat itu, saya mencari. saya mencari teknik yang melihat. saya berkata. saya berkata. saya berkata. saya tak bisa mempunyai. saya berkata. saya berkata. saya rasa. saya berkata. saya berkata. saya berkata. saya berkata. saya berkata. - Ya, saya mesti berada di sini. Kami mesti berada di sini. - Saya mesti berada di sini. Terima kasih, saya akan kembali ke dalam kumpulan. Kami beritahu orang dan apa yang mereka buat? Apa yang mereka buat? Kami beritahu kemungkinan. Saya harap kamu tahu kemungkinan sebabkan kemasan kemasan terhadap kumpulan. Kalau kamu tak menghentikan kemasan, saya tak akan beritahu kamu. Saya akan beritahu apa-apa. Tapi, saya akan beritahu orang-orang yang terima. Yang yang terima dengan semua yang berlaku dengan Iran, ini adalah besar yang besar. Makan kemungkinan terhadap kumpulan. Saya tak rasa itu sangat cepat. fremi keNEY tinggi sekal吗 Gegek así sama родas kaya Habis很多 Seul bunny Betul Seriously Connie ่ Mementようaga Beat Sol VP Jangan bergundung hay empat Sial Ch Owner Penat Saya blond Cantik Wha م sustainability *Saya rasa mula untuk kena datang sementara #TheNatsiz. Wah seorang copee semula. Kayaknya. Itu waktunya It is eyelessoran. Kakan itu dVict roll, jadi rancangan pun. Seperpa istimewa There's S5 U這個 merged soal saya an?' kingulah ke suas bedanya. Seperti nanti berikan老師 op enjoyment dah dibuat. Puang你的 saya pun Это betul 'Matemat 호. ' *Kak kena diterusin om Humanian, Itu bagus, kerana orang ada yang mempunyai yang terlalu banyak terlalu banyak, kemudian Covid, yang. Kamu tak boleh berada di dalam keputusan, keputusan, keputusan, keputusan. Ya, saya rasa mereka juga berikan dengan keputusan, ada keputusan, ada keputusan, ada keputusan, ada perkara yang seperti itu. Mereka yang berikan, mereka berikan, ada perkara yang berikan. Mereka berikan. Ya, ya. Mereka berikan. Saya rasa, "Kak kena berikan, berikan, berikan." Itu berikan, kerana. Kamu ada. Kamu ada keputusan, ada perkara yang berikan, di sebelum keputusan, dan keputusan. Ya, saya rasa, saya rasa. Injurkan, kerana. Kamu. Similah, mungkin berikan di dalam keputusan, di dalam keputusan, dan berikan seperti itu. -Mereka berikan yang berikan di dalam keputusan. -Ya, tapi injurkan, kerana. saya rasa, "Kak kena berikan, berikan, berikan, berikan." Saya rasa, "Kak kena berikan, berikan, berikan." Mereka lebih merupakan, ya, tahu. - you know. - You wouldn't be the only one. - Yeah. You know, in 2020, you know, I. I think it was kind of like very much this pushback against the work. - kind of like. - For you as a conservative. Yeah. - Yeah. I won't say I'm a conservative person. - Okay. - Conservative leaning. - Yeah. I tilt. I tilt. So, but. I think it's maybe a little bit more different now. You know, I think we've gone past, I think we've moved past that a little bit. You don't have. You know, like Ben Shapiro, the Daily Wire, they were very much at the forefront of this whole pushback against the work movement. - Sure. - But in a very like. Youngian way, they've become their own stereotype. - Sure. - Right? - Ben Shapiro, who was so against identity politics, has become the poster child for identity politics. He's literally dying on the hill based on his identity. And so I think. - Being a Jew. - Yeah. What. - Yeah. - Of an identity is there. - Yeah. It is the most identity of identities being a Jew. Right? So, I think in that sense, the watershed moment for a lot of people, you know, Miyak Alpah, when Trump got elected, I was kind of a low-key. Like, "No, this is. You know, it's nice to see, you know, lips sat crying and trying to. And, you know, there was nice, but. Yeah, I think it's been bad. - I think it's been bad. - For the world, though. - Yeah, for the world. - Oh, sure. - It's been bad for the world. I think the first term. I didn't think it was that bad. - I thought. - Oh, what a. - It was so funny, though. - Yeah, I thought the first term was entertaining and it was a bit of a shake-up and it was good to see the establishment. I think I had a similar feel of like, it was good to see things burn. It was good to see the establishment get robbed. But the second term, the repercussions are much more serious, you know. In the sense that you can see where people's lives are being affected, people are. You know, wars and people are actually dying. - Yeah. - Yeah, kids are being killed, women are being killed, men are being killed. This is where you need serious people, boring people, you know, at the helm. You need some cool hits like this. No amount of entertainment will make up for that. Make up for whatever is going on, you know. So I think in that sense, I've also changed tremendously from, you know, from where I was in 2020 to where I am now. Doesn't make sense. I don't know. I mean, what political position do you think would be different from then to now? No, no, man. In some ways, I'm still the. I mean, I'm still. You're more skeptical of the right? Yeah, I guess so. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would say so. That seems fair. Yeah. Because it seems that I've gotten the act together in one sense. I mean, the Trump administration, this is, you know, quite a long time, but like the project 2025, they had a long list of things. As soon as they walked in the door, it seemed like Trump already had people telling him, like, look, you got to sign this executive order, get rid of all the migrants, don't need to talk about walls. Yeah. Let's do ice, let's do terrorists. Like he had a laundry list and he was actually properly going through them. Yeah. And now you think you properly see the repercussions. Because like, I think in the first Trump term, he had spats with people because people were nice to him. Yeah. Now, like, he's having the people having spats with him because there's contradictions between like the manga, nationalists and then the free market tiers in his, in his camp. And so like their actual contradictions because he's implementing policy for like crypto, for tariffs and all of that. Yeah. I mean, I think again, in 2020, I, I'm not saying that the movement was wrong. I think that, you know, the whole Jordan Peterson thing served the purpose at that time. It was speaking truth to something. I still think that, but what do you think those men are now? I think they still around. I think men, there is still a crisis of masculinity. I think Jordan Peterson was speaking to a real situation. And people, I think to, to be fair to him, people downplayed what he was speaking to. And that led to the rise of and rotate. That led to the rise of Nico. These were to me genuine, not Nicole, but rotate genuine bad actors. Sure. These were genuine bad actors. And because we didn't listen to the, you know, we, I think we're too quick to paint Jordan Peterson as a grifter. And their whole movement as grifters, we kind of, I think there were a lot of men who were just suffering. They were, they were thrown under the bus. You know, I still hold to that. Okay. In fact, I think the research has pretty much validated that. You know, why did you say that? I think the, I'm not sure now, but at least when I was doing talking about this at that time, or maybe two years ago, the highest rates of suicides were men. Okay. The highest number of, the men were the most incarcerated. Sure. Or violent crime. Men were dropping out in from education, highest rates. And that has a political implication. Because the men who were dropping off from pursuing their studies in college could predict how they were going to work. And they would work, right? Sure. You know, so there were like predictions. And, you know, so there were important considerations. And it's not, on this point, it's not only in America, even Malaysia. No, Izzah was talking about how they are now less men, a boys in university than girls. Yeah. Right? It's a crisis. So why? Why is this happening? Guys, now does that mean that I'm downplaying what women go through? Am I saying that, oh, women are the cause of it. That women don't have any struggles? No. I'm just saying that men and women generally, generally, have a different dynamics. And generally, I'm going to have different problems. There's going to be a lot that are similar. But in the extremes, it's going to be different. Right? Because I think men and women generally are valid for different things. Generally speaking. Not to thread a topic that we've already covered. Many times, podcasts. These are Ruma Rai, Rekwoldi and Goldi. I don't know. I don't think there are new, I don't know. Saya rasa ada yang baru kemungkinan ini, juga kalau kamu ingin mengucapkan mereka, yang terdapat dikumpulan, bukan? Jangan teruk, saya tak rasa. Kalau kamu ingin mengucapkan dengan keputusan, maksud saya, saya akan mengucapkan keputusan Jordan Peterson, sebabkan di sosialisah, kamu akan mengucapkan sesuatu. Cuma itu bercanda untukkan 피aduran. SiIGHT, direkhasakan kepada guru Atau sehingga gambar ke menusama memalukanide jetwownya berj preparation. penguin yang acompañkan memory-paktikan Cupas itu selalu gemoron pasti. saya berjumpa kekulai kecil, kecil, kecil, kecil, kecil. Inilah berpikir kecil dan rasa ada problem. Pada yang terima, terima menarik untuk menarikkan problem,. kita beri keputusan yang pertiksaan. Dan berarti kemungkinan keras. bukan begitu. sehingga masa itu berjumpa di tempat keras, dan rasa. dan itu berapa yang menarik untuk saya berjumpa. Saya beri kemungkinan. Saya tak tahu, saya tak tahu, tapi. bukan berapa yang berlaku, awak perlu beri. saya tahu awak akan beritahu ini. Tapi, awak perlu beri kemungkinan dikulai dan beri kecil. di dalam hal itu, seperti, seperti,. kalau awak melihat kecil, kemungkinan. sekarang, kita pasti akan beri kecil dan beri kecil. kalau awak. saya tak beri kecil, tapi saya beri kecil,. sebabkan kecil, kecil, kecil. itu beri kecil. itu berapa yang menarik dan beri kecil. Ada 20 set estado betul brata siapa yangnya sebenarnya? Dengar jumpa garisnya dari ikut bom luck bagi selepas vc di ramai telur awak okus providing bila terpartakan produzirkan STRMB kena-baru tak risau Itu betul-betul, saya rasa Ina, kalau mereka untuk Youtube bagi bagi mereka berkembang dan berkembang di depan di situ, banyak-lakh banyak ini terbesar terbuka sama dengan penjara. Inak seperti, kota-kota kota, mengenai bersama-kota. Most people are talking like you're talking about. Just talk about one nation, as though it's almost an island, right, the Singular subject. You're not talking about the world, what is going through, or even how migration has worked historically in the time of empires and all of that. So, I don't know. I feel like that kind of dichotomy has died. Even the way you couch this is almost how liberals hoped that all these discussions would go. It would not descend into a shaltting match. It would be people who would like, politely agree to disagree and all of that. And now that the world has become so catastrophic that this won't work for most people. Yeah, I think, I keep going back to the 20-20s, but during that era, it seemed like the conservative movement, and it's so funny that we are talking, you know, we are a Malaysian, but the zeitgeist is so American, right? If you speak English, if you speak English, and America is a bubble, it's all in itself. Yeah, sure. It's something on steroids that basically, but I think for me, it's something fascinating to study. Yeah, sure. But whether you want to understand the whole context of it. But at the time, my thing got in the past. It felt like the conservatives were in a way more rational and willing to dialogue, compared to liberals because liberals came more from to me an emotive space. And how things have changed in that sense is, no, now everybody in a way is speaking from an emotive space. Now to me, both liberals and conservatives, or at least the hardliners are speaking from to me a place of no logic, it's not rational anymore. It doesn't make sense. Like what is happening with Palestine, what is happening? You know, it just all to me doesn't make sense. You know, the immigration, it doesn't make sense. Nothing makes sense to me. And I think you decided to give me the puppet. I think you failed to mention the small block of socialists who have a different position to both. Right? Because, if you want to say it's emotive, yeah, I still think the quote unquote, "work people" in the Democrat Party who only care about either the three politics are still there, are still trying to shut down the Zoran Mambanis and the Democratic Socialists of America who are in the Democratic Party. So in that sense, if you wanted to pick out those ultra-liberals and then pick the fascists from inside the Republican Party, those two do like, do do like the extremes. And then those are the two kinds of ends of the spectrum. But I think the. I don't know how much you follow like Zoran Mambanis, like it's the Graham account. But like the way he's delivered like policy and all of that seems more like the antidote to like even the crisis of masculinity than either of these extremes. So it is then just going back to a politics where. I don't know how long, how many hundreds. I mean, maybe like you have to go back 100 years to find Liberals who cared about bread and butter issues. Yeah, so I think that's what I also mean. Like it looks to me like Mamdani has come out of that whole like woke kind of discourse and he sort of learned from that. And I feel like he. That's not very the same because these socialists have very different traditions. Do you consider EOC a socialist? Ah, okay. That one, you're asking me if you asked my opinion, the personal opinion. No. But I don't. I am not someone who. Because she said she's a democratic socialist. Yeah. I don't think she knows what she means. So that's my point. Yeah, that's my point. I think in the 2020s, that whole era, there was a lot of performative socialism. There was a lot of performative. A lot of emotive, that's kind of like what I mean by emotive. There was a lot of. Virtue signaling, cloud chasing. And I think young people. That's why Ben Shapiro became like a. a secret. You know, like how. He seemed rational in a space where people were just shouting. He was countercultured. He was. You know, like young kids were. And in the middle of the night watching Ben Shapiro videos, hiding from their mom. Compared to it, he was like when we were listening to Eminem. You know, that shirt. The culture really did change in that sense. Okay. Young guys, young girls were. You know, listening to a lot. Ben Shapiro was based. Right? Based was like a big word, right? Sure. So I think like Mamdani. And a lot of people have. Well, not a lot. But at least Mamdani, I do agree. It feels like he's kind of shed that kind of performative. You know, he's just zoomed in on the issues. I feel like. I feel personally. Not personally attacked. That's not the right word. Now we go to the healing. Very consolation. Because. Because I think there is this narrative about the left as though liberals should be part of the socialist tradition. Sure. And then, socially, so we've been forced to enter liberal spaces to make their case look. Then look like they're part of the liberal establishment. Yeah. When they came. When, you know, fairly or unfairly, they needed to enter this space to kind of make their case. So like, I. To say that Mamdani comes from that tradition. Like. Okay, can I give you another example? Okay. Maybe AOC is a bit extreme. Okay, but let's go someone who's been more learning. Hasan Piker. Okay. You know, would you consider Hasan Piker a socialist? Yeah. But I call. So my thing about Hasan Piker, so is. I don't know. I feel again, it's super performative. But I think. So that's where I think. I would agree with you as performative. Yeah. But he's doing it because he understands how to perform. Mm-hmm. And he is doing it as. almost a strategy. I don't know if you've seen his more quiet moments, but he's not shouting at his chat for hours at a time. And asking this. As he's chatting to shut up. That's pretty funny. But like, as someone who identifies and reads all the material and loves the theory and stuff, when he sits down with these scholars, he really knows his stuff. I don't know if you think that he doesn't believe it, but I feel that there are moments where I've seen him put his money where his mouth is. Of course, people love to dunk on him for his house, and apparently he lives in a very small house. After spending two million dollars. Wasn't he like, shocking his dog or something that was like a bedelah? That one, that one, that one, so funny. That one, I'll consider a personal attack on his behalf. No problem. I'll take the heat for that one. I guess, like for me, I think what has happened is I've just become even more dissolution with both sides. Sure. And I think, yeah, I guess I wear maybe in the past, I would have only seen it on the left. I've seen it even more clearly in figures that like the daily wire. You know that I thought were a little bit more rational, a little bit more logical, but then, you know, they showed their true colors in that sense, right? In the end, they are all kind of like ideologues to a certain extent. There were very few people that actually have principles and they stand by their principles irrespective of where the crowd is going last. The first person I thought can't think about who's like sticks to his principles. Like, I don't know why David, I came to mind. He's narrative is so crazy. Crazy is not. If he don't talk really easy, but he's so consistent, bro. I have respect for like, you know, I do respect Bernie Sanders. Sure. Yeah. I think, I respect his loyalty to the Democratic Party after all they have like, "Dau, I can't allow, bro." Yeah. Has your political views changed at all from when we first started podcasting now? I mean, I think it's shifted because I remember, you'll podcast episodes, but you know, you mentioned that I was not spending time starting the revolution. I've never been in the people of revolution. So, you know, let it be on the record in case the Malaysian government needs like a snippet, hopefully they played and caught no, I'm only sleeping the part. I'm not in a hotel, right? I'll go and find the clips and put it out. I don't know. I think as someone who spent a lot more time understanding corruption. So like, one of the big things I did during the pandemic was try to understand why the government didn't handle the COVID pandemic as well as it did. And one of the key things I've realized is that some, it's something that some of us might have noticed, but not all of us have noticed is that why corruption in Malaysia occurs. The two reasons why corruption in Malaysia occurs. One is because politicians like the money and they're probably spending it on themselves, on Mercedes or whatever. There's another kind of component to what the corruption money is spent on. And it's to maintain the political machinery, right? You notice because maybe you, I mean, you used internmenting. Nazmi, you have not saying that Nign Nazmi did that. I'm not trying to know. Not all political machinery needs to be corrupt. But political machinery is incredibly expensive. You need to rent spaces, your one constituency for an MP on Adun would require dozens of service centres staffed by volunteers or spade staff, do you think those flags are printed for free? Some people might. They are recycled from here to here, actually. It's quite sad to think about it. They have to keep it for five years. And then the old uncles who work for the AP like, okay, we're going to take it out again. It's a bit of a fun carnival. But the cause of political machinery is a good chunk of why corruption exists. Right? And if you think about how why politicians, the part that really got me was why was being in opposition such a bad thing. Why would they so desperate to be at the head of a government? Because they're they're they're pilfering its ministries for money. Right? Again, we're not saying any specific government, we're just talking. I didn't mention which administration. General theoretical why not all of those? Is that legal to say it's sued by everybody? Every single party. Every single administration. What a registration that can't sue us is probably the Nagem administration. But basically, I think that has given me a kind of different appreciation for what it takes to change political culture and Malaysia. There's so many, there's so many Malaysians who expect their politicians to spend time called on quote, valuable time going to fix portfolios, listening to their stories, getting their, getting their water issues in their privately owned apartment fix as though MPs are meant to do this job. So all of this is part of like a kind of culture where Malaysians kind of expect MPs and adults to do the job of like a local counselor. And that sucks up time, that sucks up money. And that inadvertently creates the need for corruption and patronage and all this stuff. And like it makes me kind of appreciate that running a government is not easy. I have some sympathy for the annual administration and why it might be engaged in certain things. Because sometimes when people ask me why is it so bad, they need money to run political parties. Are you giving them money? If you're not signing up because something on my partner says why didn't Charles Satyango get re-elected in clang? I'm like if you're not going to be a D.A.F. member and go and vote for Charles Satyango in at a branch, you can't get Charles Satyango re-elected. So there are lots of these things that I think I've had a very different appreciation for. I don't think I've shifted my political positions, but because of the practicality. The fact that money is such a ubiquitous thing and it's such like a monster because I think I've had to think through like, "Okay, so how do we dismantle corruption?" "Oh my god, you're going to put your hair out, you've got to dismantle it here, all the way to the top, you're going to stop creating the need for corruption." Because corruption again isn't just the what you call that police officer asking you for something. That money is probably just to supplement his income. But the fact that he needs to supplement his income is also part of a larger political problem and all of that. Yeah, I think my spiel for what's wrong with Malaysia just become longer. Yeah, I mean, it's saying the road to how this pay for good intentions. Not every corrupt person might be a villainous figure. They may be facing some hard realities. If I want to change the world or change the country, I need to get re-elected. For me to get re-elected, I need to put myself out there and that's going to take money, right? Yeah, so that's where it's at, because if so, imagine the socialist government comes to power and be like, "Shit, we've got to engage in all of this." Was it worth it to fight all the way to the top to be like, "Oh, I've got to dirty our hands and then lose the next election." Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also, because I wondered why, for example, Democrats in America would take like APEC money, for example. It just feels like political suicide. I mean, I would think you would have the common sense to, you know, your accused people are being bought, you know, but you're being bought as well. The American system is probably the craziest one. The craziest one, because there's no room for corruption. You can't go and pay for your ministries. You got to beg rich people for money. Like, I forgot who it was from. I don't know if it was AOC or someone from the squad. They were saying they spent half their time just on the phone with donors, be like, "Can I have some money? I really need the money." They've got to negotiate their own money. And then the party at the central level can dictate whether you get any money or not. Because if you oppose the central party, they will all have no money for you. Good luck. We're going to fund your opponent. And then you also understand why it's harder for people to be principal. And people are in that way incentivized to say things and do things that get you that clout. Because in the end of the day, it's going to translate to money. You know, people are going to be more incentivized to fund you, donate when their emotions are out of the world. Yeah, right. And so, you know, it's like a populist thing, I guess. Yeah. And then the funnest part is, you know, the Crypto Lobby had one of its best years. Yeah, it's crazy. Now, what about you personally? Personally, how have you changed? How what's the era that you are entering or are in now? Any difference or still the same? I think back on it not much has changed in terms of again, my being busy. Yeah, I think maybe the only one thing I'll say has changed is kind of like the. saya berjalan di dalam kecil. Saya tak boleh berjalan di dalam kecil. Saya rasa di dalam kecil. Saya semua berjalan di rumah. Saya berjalan di dalam kecil. Saya rasa berjalan di dalam kecil. Dan keadaan-adaan, masih berjalan dan berjalan. Dan keadaan-adaan, masih berjalan. Radical Way um. Created waves around the world. It usually does follow with a period of peace after. You know, because it's normal. You have chaos, right? You will want stability. You experience too much of stability. You start to want some chaos. I'm not the. I'm not someone who subscribes to the. what? I'm not someone who believes in that. Because as someone who understands that capitalism also comes in waves, in eves and flows, this could be really the down cycle. I believe in a very oscillating. I'm sure that everyone just oscillates. Society oscillates. You know, you have. I think we lived. We grew up in a time that was reacting very strongly to communism. It saw very clearly the downsides of communism. Sure. A authoritarianism. Right. But now this next generation I think is looking at the perils of democracy of political corruptness. Yeah, okay. So, you know, it goes back and forth lah. You know, it goes back and forth. Then, you're going to go from. you know, from a democratic outlook, you're going to go. you're going to magnet or be attracted to a authoritarian figure. Then you're going to. I somehow think it goes that way. I think history will see. I don't know. I'm not someone who necessarily thinks it oscillates that way. Because like if we. Kelah, this is really theoretical about like the ends of the end of empires. So like the American empire is supposedly having its like. is going to go down in the next 10 to 15 years. Yeah. The same way like they've mapped out the Dutch went down, the British went down, all of that. And so, you know, I think that that will be kind of. this kind of pattern we're looking at, not necessarily the swing back and forth between. democracy and authoritarianism. What comes next? I think. could be anything. But. Yeah. So you. I mean, you're excited about what's happening now. And is that because you foresee something positive coming out of all of this? No. Or you're just. like this is thrilling to see. Because I think we get to watch. some of us will get to watch it. as like an experiment that plays out in like almost in a laboratory. Because I think a country like Malaysia, you know, if America and China go to war, I don't think we'll be that close to the front lines. Yeah. Yeah. We might suffer the consequences economically in terms of like stuff. But we're not going to get as hard hit. In the sense that like. I think it's. I wouldn't call it excitement. But when I think about how the Gaza issue could. the Palestine issue could ever be resolved. The Palestine issue will be resolved the day America falls apart when it goes to civil war. And then it. Israelis will be like, "Okay, it's do or die." And then, you know, you've got to hope the Arab countries come to the aid of the Palestinians, otherwise they're all gone. Israel is. Israel is. What. None of it makes sense. And even like their reaction to Trump when Trump was trying to pull back, right? And the rhetoric, right? Some of them were like, you know, politicians were speaking negatively about Trump. Yeah. To me, I just. to me, it doesn't make. you know what? I was thinking about how like logic being rational. To me, I'm not saying that you have to say. I would. I'd really think that you would think strategically. And to me, I don't see how that strategic at all. Yeah. I'm not saying that. I'm not like a Trump supporter here and saying that you should not defame the great name of Trump. But I'm just saying to me, it just doesn't make sense. No, yeah. But the. how crazy is Israeli society as you can find lots of clips on YouTube about love? But basically, there are so many. there are so many problems in the world that seem to originate from the US Empire that watching it fall would at least be history moving forward. Right? In that. in a way that I think we would never get to experience. Because I think some. even the fall of the Soviet Union wasn't an event here. Right? So I don't feel like it is the same as the British Empire falling, the way that World War II ended. Yeah. I mean, we had a taste of kind of the communism narrative through like chimpaying and things like that. I don't think it's the same because I think the West experienced the fall of communism very differently. Sure, sure, sure. Because not in the sense that. not in the sense that you might think in the sense that most people have traced this idea that after the fall of the Soviet Union, capitalist governments will be like, "Okay, there's no need to take care of people." Because in general, there's a lot of evidence like documentary evidence that the. I mean, the French, the British, the Americans, all took care of their people with social security, with health care, with education, because the threat of communism was constantly at its door. And they had to show that they were treating their people better than the Soviets. And once that threat went away, they were like, "What's a big deal? Let's just go and make money." - Saya rasa itu berkata, "Khanya adalah kena. - Ya, karena ia berikan alternatif, - Ya. - Bukan di mana hari ini, mereka boleh berikan kena, - dan keadaan, di mana? - Sekarang, mereka sangat terbuka. - Dan keadaan kena, semua orang harus keadaan kena. - Saya suka keadaan kena, di keadaan kena. - Oh, jadi keadaan kena. - Jadi, keadaan kena, semua itu. - Ya, saya rasa, saya rasa, - ia hanya keadaan kena. - Kena kena. - Ya. - Jadi, apa yang anda fikir? - Kita berikan ini, saya hanya, saya hanya jenik-jenik, - dengan apa-apa yang anda fikirkan, - ini terbaik di mana? - Ini selalu berikan, berikan, - keadaan kena. - Sama-sama, anda tidak ada kes. - Dan kita tidak ada keadaan kena. - Kita berikan keadaan kena. - Dan keadaan kena. - Kita harus berikan keadaan kena. - Ya, sebelum kena, dia mungkin berikan. - Jadi, kita tidak berikan keadaan kena. - Saya tidak ada kes. - Oke, baiklah. - Kita perlukan orang yang kita. - Dan saya ada yang lain juga. - Jadi, kamu boleh berikan keadaan kena. - Yang lain, apa yang anda berikan? - Maksudnya, saya tidak berikan keadaan kena. - Saya tidak berikan keadaan kena. - Ada banyak kualitas yang mereka berikan. - Maksudnya, mereka masih berikan keadaan. Saya tidak berikan keadaan kena. idingh 교Space itu. Sekarang itu, kan? L ThatЧadak berbeza. Iyan gros동i saya вижу. Mais ke loyal itu, Islamistokin untukabisankan. Tetapi berapa ini sebalik? Sevingkan screw물? Bika saya mengagari, kmsiap ini berapa? Mshow saya improve nya juga? Wonkan dia atau tidak? Res enfin. Dengan jagat ini? -Chef hacen itu80= Sevedkan, Jaewu! -F 바�at. Kita harus buat. Kami tak beri kembali. Dia masih ada apa-apa yang berlaku? Kami masih ada apa-apa yang berlaku. Mereka orang berlaku. Tapi, Kami saya membuatkan servi, "Selamat-servi" di masalah. Saya masih. Saya cuma rasa, seperti. Kami rasa. Mereka melayangkan kembali, berpilis relaxan ianya在听室在 yang punya poppek berapa yang saya berguna, tapi saya perlu berguna, atau saya berguna, itu lebih banyak di country dan orang dan itu. Mereka ada lebih banyak dan hanya politik. Kenapa? Bukan begitu, kerana kita, politiknya, kita seperti, "Hollywood" yang kita berguna. Kenapa "Hollywood" berguna tentang "Godships" tentang? Apa yang berguna? Dia? Ya, apa yang berguna? Dia juga berguna. Dia juga berguna. Kenapa? Kenapa? Kenapa? Jadi, dia, saya sangat berguna. Kenapa? Kenapa? Ya, saya berguna. Saya tahu awak, saya berguna. Saya berguna. Saya suka berguna dengan awak. Saya berguna. Dia berguna. Saya berguna. Dia berguna. Dia berguna. Jadi, ia sangat fungsi, sebab mereka berguna. Dia berusaha dengan paring kelihan di formula Sebelum bahasa dia berkaitan, video dia bersama ini Saya cuma masih prosik Saya curi aku tak suka Miki ikut lihat Kamippokan kencartannya Mereka berkaitan, "Ya, saya berkaitan." Maksudnya, kami berkaitan di tempat yang berkaitan dan tidak berkaitan. Pada masa itu, di Amerika, kamu berkaita banyak orang Gossip dan berkaitan tentang seluruh percayaan di Malaysia terbuka, terbukaan kita, tentang politik. Dia berkaitan dengan orang yang kita berkaitan dengan menjaga, menjaga, menjaga, dan untuk saya, jika saya berkaitan kelihan di Malaysia mereka sebenarnya berkaitan. Malaysia berkaitan di tempat yang berkaitan dan berkaitan di tempat yang berkaitan yang mencari, saya rasa kelihan di Malaysia untuk menghantar kelihan di tempat yang berkaitan dengan kelihan di tempat yang berkaitan kamu harus mempunyai kelihan di tempat yang berkaitan di tempat yang berkaitan atau di tempat yang berkaitan tapi tidak berkaitan di tempat yang berkaitan di tempat yang berkaitan di tempat yang berkaitan dan berkaitan berkaitan berkaitan di tempat yang berkaitan di tempat yang berkaitan. dia sangat beberapa. tidak kultru yang menurutkan. dengan kultru yang bergantungan. Dan juga kebukaan dan kembali ke ibu. Jadi, yang menurutkan bergantungan. dia di sini. pulitian. Jadi, saya rasa. dia hanya berhati-hati-hati. dia kultru yang menurutkan. dan juga ada kultru ini. dia bergantungan. dan yang lain yang menurutkan. dan ibu. [Muah]