Speaker 1Hey, what's going on? Welcome back to the James Kennedy podcast. Here we are again. How the hell are you guys doing? And what the hell have you been doing since we last spoke? I'm guessing you definitely haven't been chatting with Croatian philosopher, author, political activist, and all-around clever, funny, and awesome dude, Mr. Strechko Horvat. Well, don't worry, because I have, and I'm going to share the conversation with you in about one minute's time. So hold on to your seatbelts, man. But before we jump into the conversation with both feet, I'm just going to come out and say it. Have you subscribed to the podcast yet? Have you given me a follow? Have you given me a star rating, a review, a comment, or anything? Have you done anything for me at all since the last episode? Come on, man. I'm giving you all this good stuff for free. Help a brother out. The podcast is available for free and in full on every platform, including Spotify, Apple, Amazon, CastBox, even YouTube, goddammit. But don't tell me you can't find the button to click on. And whilst you're doing that, why not check out my band, James Kennedy and the Underdogs, because we have got some new material coming your way this year, man, as well as shitload of gigs. I'll see you in a minute. We're getting around everywhere. So if you're not yet on the mailing list, go to jameskennedystuff.com slash tribe. Join the tribe, put your city in there, and then we'll know where you are, and we'll come and see you. If you can't even be asked to do that, then at least come and join us on Instagram at jameskennedyuk, whereupon you should be furnished with even more free goodness, like free music and free videos and all that fucking cool stuff. So don't tell me I'm not good to you guys. But now, speaking of which, it's time to bring on the main man of the moment, we are going to do a deep dive into some super clever stuff. Well, he is. I'm just going to nod along and pretend I'm keeping up. We're going to talk about Europe and the future of politics and activism and AI and immigration and war and what the fuck is going on in the world and what the fuck we can do about it. So I don't want to waste any time on this episode. I just want to jump straight in and welcome onto the show today's guest. Calling in from Croatia, it is the mastermind, the evil genius, the mind blower. It is the philosopher, author, political activist, and all-round legend, Mr. Strechko Horvat. Strechko, thank you so much for doing this, man. It's an honor. How are you doing? I'm fine. I'm very excited to be talking to you, James. Well, I hope it's not going to be a disappointment then, bro. Like I said, I'm going to let you do all the clever stuff. I'm going to load myself up on caffeine so that I can keep up with your amazing brain and do my best to see if I can make it to the end. But I thought we'd start with a biggie. I'm going to throw a big one your way because we got a lot of shit going on in the world right now, man. There's a lot of stuff to delve into. I wanted to start with getting your take on what the fuck is going on in the world. We've got a conflict in Ukraine, you know, a genocide in Palestine. We've got bombing in Yemen again. The economy's tanking, but then people are getting fucking richer than ever before. Are all these things connected? Is there a plan? Or are we just in a free fall? What is going on? What's your take?
Speaker 2Yeah, thanks for starting with this question. You at least have some coffee and I don't. Well, it reminds me on this famous response, the German philosopher, a member of the Frankfurt School, Theodor Nadorno, once gave to a Spiegel journalist who asked him, Herr Professor, two weeks ago, the world still seemed okay. And Nadorno responded, not to me. And in that sense, of course, what we are witnessing today seems unprecedented. It certainly is unprecedented given the possibility of nuclear annihilation and that human civilization came to a level that we are able to self-destroy ourselves, but also destroy the planet itself together in this ultimate annihilation. So in that sense, it is unprecedented, but it's not surprising. I mean, the occupation of Palestine has been going on for more than a half of a century. It's not that it started in October this year, this kind of processes were happening throughout decades. Of course, what we are witnessing now is really the peak of mass destruction and suffering. What I can see in this whole situation is that global capitalism is unable to resolve its contradictions on the one hand, and that on the other hand, what we can see is not a clash of civilizations, as much as this Huntington, Fukuyama kind of dreams are coming back. But what we are witnessing is a clash of various imperialisms. On the one hand, the transatlanticists, which means the United States together with the United Kingdom and some countries of the European Union. On the other side, you have Russia. On the third side, you have China. Then you have the Arab states and so on. So what we are witnessing is on the one hand, a very worrying, unprecedented situation because of the amount of already existing suffering and the possibility of even more immense human suffering. But in a way, even if it looks depressive, I wouldn't say it's that depressive in the sense that what we are witnessing is the creation of a multipolar world. And that by itself is not good as such, but it's definitely better than being stuck in a world, in a bipolar world. For instance, where you only have two superpowers. So I think this kind of situation opens up tracks in the current system. We could have seen it in the past weeks all across the world, from the massive protests in the United Kingdom to the shutdown protests in the United States. There is a massive movement all across the world. But at the same time, this year, 2024, is also the year of major elections in the world. On the one hand, the United States, where, as you know, there is not really a real choice if the choice, again, is between Biden and Trump. And on the other hand, European elections in Europe, which is happening just before the summer this year. And if you look at this kind of representative politics, we're not now speaking about mass mobilizations and social movements who are coming together, but we are speaking about representative parliamentary democracy. Here, the situation, at least to my estimation, has never been worse for the left and for the Greens. The left is completely lost. When you look at the polls, for instance, in Germany, you will see that the German left, the so-called Linke, will have a very hard time to even pass and get any seat in the parliament. On the other hand, the Greens are in power in Germany, but you can see what their politics consists of, especially if you look at foreign politics. About the United Kingdom, I don't really have to talk to you about it. You know the situation much better than me, but I would say the situation is not better in any other country. So we definitely left the landscape of 2015, 2016, which were the years, you know, Syriza in Greece, Podemos in Spain, massive mobilizations turning into new political parties. But these political parties are not new anymore. Many of them collapsed or compromised. It's sufficient to look at Syriza in Greece, where, you know, the current head of the political party is a former banker. So it's a logical kind of circle of this tragic experience of the so-called radical left in Greece. And we could go on and on. So in that sense, I would say, on the one hand, yes, we have an unprecedented global situation where various existential or even eschatological threats are intertwining and reinforcing each other. So the climate, climate crisis, the nuclear threat, the permanent war, the migration crisis, the microplastics and so on, the violence which we witness every day, the rise of fascism and autocratic systems around the world. But at the same time, what we can witness is the creation of a multipolar world, a new energy in social movements across the world, and at the same time, a complete disaster, I would say, when it comes to left green politics in representative parliamentary democracy. How is that for instead of a coffin?
Speaker 1Nailed it. Nailed it, man. That's done more to wake me up than this cup of coffee right here. Yeah, no, that's a brilliant answer, man. I think that's, I mean, that opens up a whole load of other things which we could dive into. One of the things that I wanted to touch on, which you mentioned towards the end, was, you know, the impotence of the left, which seems to be a kind of a universal problem. What's the impotence of the left, which seems to be a kind of a universal problem? What's behind that? Is it because, I mean, it feels like in Britain, certainly, the Labour Party has had to fit into such a small groove of what it will deem to be acceptable by the elites and all the different players that they've got to kind of please to get any kind of traction in the marketplace, so to speak. Is that what we're seeing around the world, or is there something
Speaker 2else at play? Yeah, what we're witnessing is not something new. The German philosopher, Walter Benjamin, a hundred years ago, almost had a beautiful and most precise definition of this, and he called it the left-wing melancholy, the left-wing melancholia, where he went deeper into the meaning of melancholy, which, unlike mourning, melancholy also, at least to the definition of Sigmund Freud, is a process in which you cannot get rid of the object because of which you are suffering, or you are sad, or it completely changes your life. stick to the object you stick to it even in a way of fetishism and you constantly revive the object uh i mean to illustrate the point with with a pretty banal illustration uh you end up with a breakup and then instead of going through the process of letting the person go you constantly put a knife in your heart by watching old photos videos or whatever and in that way you can never get actually over the object or the subject which is the source of your suffering so this is a kind of melancholy and i would say the left very often suffers from it i think the left still didn't recover from the defeats and there were plenty of defeats which it suffered in the last decade and very often i would say also one of the reasons for the failure of the left if you want to put it like that or for for the the absence of a parliamentary success uh resides in the fact which you mentioned that uh very often they actually uh the left very often not just because it is pressed by by the material uh circumstances and foundations of the system uh which already uh uh in a way channels you in which way you can act or what you can do at all uh but i think the left uh is also successful because very often it starts to slide or incline uh towards the center or towards what tarikali for instance called the extreme center uh uh you best example again is germany uh where part of the link actually adopted an anti-immigration discourse uh which surprisingly or not actually uh gives them more percentage at the polls currently uh which is interesting as well but most most of the other cases uh uh end up in the following way the left uh uh uh sees that it's not successful and it starts to incline towards the center in the sense of ideologies narratives policies and so on uh but the voters actually don't want this but they want a real authentic radical left uh so why would they vote for for for a center left if they can vote for for a right center which is very similar to this uh but in any way i'm kind of bored of this parliamentary politics already so i'm going to do this uh but in any way i'm kind of bored of this parliamentary politics already so i'm going to do this uh but in any way i'm kind of bored of this parliamentary politics already so i'm going to do this uh but in any way i'm kind of bored of this parliamentary politics already so i'm going to do this uh but in any way i'm kind of bored of this parliamentary politics already so i'm going to do this uh but in any way i'm kind of bored of this parliamentary politics already i'm not saying it's not it's not important and uh people shouldn't be mobilizing and shouldn't be trying to transform political parties or build new political parties but me personally after 20 years of being active in various social movements even running for european elections in 2019 together with my uh dear friend janice varoufakis uh at the moment i'm just yeah kind of not that much interested in it because i see that the new energy that the new theoretical reconceptualizations of of global capitalism and possible forms of resistance uh uh is not com coming from political parties currently uh but it's coming as it was very often the case from social social movements uh uh and then of course we would end up in a chicken and the egg situation uh what shall be done you know what what to do in this situation where you all have a desire uh an urgency to create new political forms to create new forms of living together to create new forms of society uh and well my response these days is to just try to reinvent new institutions if it's possible not just uh what rudy duchka famously during the period of 68 called the lange marsh 20 institution and the long march through the institutions but at the same time to build uh new institutions up and down and uh i think that's a very important thing to think about outside of the existing institutions so that's basically where i am at the moment in the sense of my own aspirations uh crossroads put it like that yeah i echo that man i mean i totally get
Speaker 1what you're saying and i want to come on to that um in the second part of the conversation to do with what can we do with citizens and activists to kind of effect change outside of this binary ping pong match that we get to have every four years where we we get to vote for the lesser of two evils if we're lucky to even be able to do that neither of which truly represent 99.9 of us anymore um so i think i probably share your sentiments on on what some of the solutions to that are going to be but before we get to that point i want to kind of get a bigger picture of what we're dealing with on it on a global scale so you've mentioned already that you know the power systems around the world and the power structures around the world are changing you know we've got a clash of empires now but where does our beloved europe fit in amongst all of this on the world stage now
Speaker 2as you know is better than ever uh it's shiny weather everyone is living the life of their dreams driving electric cars and not polluting the rest of the of of the universe uh not involved anymore include the task colonialism new sorts of imperialism so we finally reached the end of history in europe but of course it's it's a bad joke uh no i mean i've been dealing with with with europe for a while uh back i think 10 years ago together with slavoj zizek we published the book which was first published in in in uk and then later by columbia university press it was called what does europe want uh and it was you know it's a paraphrase of this famous question uh from sigmund freud freud himself never succeeded to this to to to come to an answer to this question uh and similarly i think the question what does europe want also leaves us not with an answer but just with open questions uh i mean it's the famous joke uh whom do whom do you call if you want to call europe and obviously there is no one to call uh i mean they are unelected representatives uh for instance ursula von der leyen who went to israel immediately after this last war started although none of the european citizens decided or had an ask whether representatives should represent us in such a complex and urgent of course issue not to mention of course the european other european financial institutions and the kind of business they are doing on the periphery of the european union but all in all i would say the trend of the rise of writing populism or even forms of fascism i think this rise is happening rapidly uh i mean it is something me and zizek have been talking about 10 years ago already and many others as well uh but what we kind of projected at that time 10 years ago is unfortunately something what is happening now that the further escalation outside of europe which means new wars which means new influx of migrants and refugees and you know i we were speaking about that 10 years ago i visited uh when idomani uh uh in greece you know this refugee camp with almost 20 000 people uh on the railways i visited uh also five years ago or something and i would say that the domenica lab these were just small footnotes uh for what is coming and we can already see it uh the millions of people displaced because uh of the war in ukraine uh the the the the hundreds of thousands of people uh displaced already from the from from gaza uh uh millions of others uh from africa from asia who are affected either either by wars or civil wars or by climate crisis uh they're all coming to europe uh and what we can witness i can witness it these days in croatia maybe that's a good example to give you uh uh because we didn't have unlike the united kingdom croatia for instance first of all it wasn't it was never an imperial power uh so of course it didn't have uh colonies uh and because of that reason also we didn't have such an influx of migrants to to the space of now what is called yugoslavia uh uh with a small footnote uh during the non-aligned movement of course yugoslavia had very good connections with the global south and at that time in the 70s and the 80s we had people from africa asia and so on coming to study to belgrade this situation change it's a very monocultural culture it's a very white culture and uh it's it's a nation which is dying out so only in the last 10 10 years croatia has lost 300 000 people who left in search for jobs mainly to germany austria and western europe so at this moment croatia has a bit less than 4 million inhabitants the projection is that in the next seven years more than half million of migrant workers will arrive to croatia which means that a huge percentage of the population will be known croatians and at the same time the statistical projections demographic projections say that until 2100 croatia will only have two million inhabitants and now of course that's that sounds uh ridiculous i mean to to to to be from croatia to be speaking from croatia as i am today from a country which is becoming as a kind of uh reservoir you know like a zoo uh in the sense that uh the the the croatian white class uh who was never imperial of course and it's not that privileged as the west is now pretty privileged to those people who are coming there are no integration policies uh for instance i've was a kid of a still am of a political refugee so i lived as a refugee in germany in the 80s uh very soon when we came my father got a free language course by goethe institute for six months if you come from nepal bangladesh that's mainly the countries where the migrants come from to croatia these days uh there is no free language course to learn croatia there is no integration so what is happening in the last year is literally every day in the newspaper we read about a new racist attack uh and of course that might not be new to you although i would say that the the level the the statistics the amount of these attacks is really astonishing uh and uh it's something which points into a very bleak future not just for croatia but for europe as such uh because obviously because of climate crisis uh but also obviously the war because uh war is the permanent state and peace unfortunately is just a pose uh because of the war and climate crisis we can definitely expect uh the numbers exponentially to rise that we will have hundreds of millions of refugees uh of course trying to reach europe at least at the beginning while it's still not completely fucked by climate crisis uh and europe responding in the way which we could have seen during the last 10 years uh either by outsourcing the refugee crisis at the beginning you know they outsourced it to greece to the many a few months ago i don't know if you saw that uh italy and albania made the deal that it will outsource their refugees to albania who is now building detention camps for migrants uh where around 30 or 40 000 refugees will be based in albania so they are trying to escape war from let's say afghanistan pass through greece uh pay thousands of euros uh to smugglers then they are deported back they go back and they go back and in the end you know they arrive to italy and then they will deport them to albania so on the one hand what we can follow is this outsourcing of the refugee crisis which also acquires very dystopian science fiction characteristics for instance that boat uh in the united kingdom which is a floating refugee detention camp so you don't even need a country anymore you can just put them on boats uh so more and more we are coming closer to alfonso cuaron's children of men uh where you know refugees are in cages and europe is completely divided so on the one hand i think it's a very important thing to do but i think this outsourcing of refugees will become an even harder problem what we could have seen in the last 10 years and that points towards the next 10 years is that the building of walls electric fences artificial intelligence is already being used by frontex that these technological advances using traditional like walls but using also modern forms of technology like artificial intelligence that that will also rapidly rise we've seen it already in hungary and with the regime of urban uh if you already built a wall uh uh and uh at the same time frontex which is this migration uh army to call them like that of the official army of the european union is getting equipped with all this ai technology which is now also being tested in gaza for instance in which way through the machine and technology you can scan people you can influence their behavior you can influence their behavior you can influence their behavior you can influence their behavior you can block them of entering public transport uh you can make their lives miserable so uh at one point i think even the passport will not mean that much anymore although at least for us who are still privileged it still means everything uh but i think the the the the kind of control which is coming the kind of biopolitics which is coming to europe uh given the state of things uh given uh uh this whole situation which we just painted um is of course something which should worry us all uh because i i you know you don't have to be a weatherman to know in which direction the wind will flow uh it's sufficient to look at the last almost 20 years since the financial crisis 2007 2008 and in from in which way from that moment uh the european union although it had you know some new accession croatia was was the last accession member state uh uh in although it had you know some new accession member state uh uh in it's imploding it's imploding when it it's imploding it's imploding when it comes to the demography it's a continent which is dying out comes to the demography it's a continent which is dying out uh you you've seen it with this little uh you you've seen it with this little statistics about croatia but we could talk about statistics about croatia but we could talk about other countries where fertility is going down other countries where fertility is going down that's why i say it's a children of medicine area that's why i say it's a children of medicine area at meantime europe is involved in uh wars uh across at meantime europe is involved in uh wars uh across the world which like a boomerang is coming back to the world which like a boomerang is coming back to europe uh for instance you know the last year or europe uh for instance you know the last year or even more we are using fracked gas from the united even more we are using fracked gas from the united states now uh but oil at the same time comes from states now uh but oil at the same time comes from saudi arabia and other arab countries uh at the saudi arabia and other arab countries uh at the same time the standard of people living in europe same time the standard of people living in europe is rapidly falling down just look at germany which is rapidly falling down just look at germany which is entering recession where you have huge farmers is entering recession where you have huge farmers protests uh you know if these things are happening protests uh you know if these things are happening in germany which as we know is the core of the in germany which as we know is the core of the european union is the foundation of the european union european union is the foundation of the european union uh together with france but germany was uh together with france but germany was always the most important country if germany is hitting always the most important country if germany is hitting such a crisis if alternative for deutschland such a crisis if alternative for deutschland this far-right nazi party is rising that much in the this far-right nazi party is rising that much in the post that it's putting a shadow on all the post that it's putting a shadow on all the other parties and it's the europe's elites fault uh to other parties and it's the europe's elites fault uh to to to be leading us in this direction which can to be leading us in this direction which can just mean further escalation it can also mean terrorism just mean further escalation it can also mean terrorism back home because whatever happens back home because whatever happens in the middle east sorry in africa or in asia in the middle east sorry in africa or in asia in the middle east sorry in africa or in asia uh as a rule will return like a boomerang uh as a rule will return like a boomerang uh as a rule will return like a boomerang to european union as well we had it to european union as well we had it to european union as well we had it already in the past uh and it's just a already in the past uh and it's just a already in the past uh and it's just a matter of time when we will have it in matter of time when we will have it in matter of time when we will have it in the future yes the future yes
Speaker 1the future yes oh man that's a pretty bleak prognosis for oh man that's a pretty bleak prognosis for oh man that's a pretty bleak prognosis for the near future then you know um
Speaker 3the near future then you know um the near future then you know um you asked for me i'm sorry you asked for me i'm sorry
Speaker 1you asked for me i'm sorry well no because like you say you know well no because like you say you know well no because like you say you know knowledge is power you know we need to knowledge is power you know we need to knowledge is power you know we need to know that the storm is coming so that we know that the storm is coming so that we know that the storm is coming so that we can prepare and navigate accordingly you can prepare and navigate accordingly you can prepare and navigate accordingly you know so yeah no it's no good pretending know so yeah no it's no good pretending know so yeah no it's no good pretending this ain't happening and you mentioned this ain't happening and you mentioned this ain't happening and you mentioned advancements in like web 3 and advancements in like web 3 and advancements in like web 3 and decentralized web could actually decentralized web could actually decentralized web could actually benefit activists and provide some kind benefit activists and provide some kind benefit activists and provide some kind of asset to us as dissenters you know in of asset to us as dissenters you know in of asset to us as dissenters you know in terms of proliferation of information or terms of proliferation of information or terms of proliferation of information or building networks or organizing is there building networks or organizing is there building networks or organizing is there that capacity do you think or is this that capacity do you think or is this that capacity do you think or is this just another tool for the billionaire just another tool for the billionaire just another tool for the billionaire club to keep the peasants down
Speaker 2i mean the technology of course is i mean the technology of course is i mean the technology of course is always a pharmacon always a pharmacon always a pharmacon as plato called it in the sense that it as plato called it in the sense that it as plato called it in the sense that it depends in which way you use it depends in which way you use it depends in which way you use it but we are at the current stage but we are at the current stage but we are at the current stage artificial intelligence is completely artificial intelligence is completely artificial intelligence is completely out of the developments advances in out of the developments advances in out of the developments advances in artificial intelligence or to be more artificial intelligence or to be more artificial intelligence or to be more precise in machine learning precise in machine learning precise in machine learning are completely out of control are completely out of control we don't have any influence and experts also who are in this field also don't have any influence in which way it is being developed so of course we should be worried of course we should be worried because what we are reaching now uh i think is the not the final phase but but but a tipping point in the face of the advances of technology uh uh why uh the the german philosopher who is unfortunately pretty forgotten now although uh his out date outdatedness of of of the human being will be published very soon in english uh gunter anders had a thesis that exactly in this book that the humans became outdated because we are not an historical in the sense that it is the humans who make history but we are becoming historical in the sense that it's technology which is making history uh winter anders wrote this half a century ago influenced by hiroshima and nagasaki he was really ahead of his time uh and he was writing this mainly in the context of nuclear technology in the sense that we succeeded to create such a thing which as long as human civilization will exist even if it's one hour hour more or 100 days more 100 years or 100 centuries we will be unable to unlearn the technology which we invented so the threat will always remain with us whatever we do even if suddenly there is peace in the world which of course we know uh remains a kantian utopian idea and of course an aspiration of many of us who are still utopian uh uh but even if we arrive at the stage of world peace uh which as you know is pretty unimaginable uh we wouldn't be able to unlearn the technology we we had uh uh invented and i think i think the same goes uh for artificial intelligence in the sense that we are able to learn the technology we we had uh uh invented and i think i think the same goes uh for artificial intelligence in the sense that we are able to learn artificial intelligence another term which i think is also very useful again comes from gunter anders who said that what we are witnessing with the development of technology is something what he calls the promethean gap which means that we are not able to understand the repercussions of our own inventions we are not able to understand what kind of consequences our inventions will have and of course it goes for any invention uh i mean when the first wheel was invented uh probably it wasn't invented with the idea that you could have a tank in several times years later but it was invented for carrying wood or whatever but the same goes for artificial intelligence which is of course even more dangerous than the wheel for instance because we really cannot understand the consequences of this technology what we can understand at this moment is that it's certainly another phase in monopoly capitalism in the sense that you already have a few silicon valley companies who are occupying the space of technology at least of the western world including europe then and what you will have now is even further stages of hyper integration of the rhythmic penetration into all spheres of life which tend to come back to your question of course will affect activists social movements because already now the european union has registers of activists but then you can imagine to what stage it would come when you apply machine learning and artificial intelligence and of course i mean what comes first to my mind is philip k dick and minority report or the movie which might be a bit more famous because it's by steven spielberg and tom cruise uh the science fiction scenario in which the police actually solves pre-crimes so even before you yourself know that you will commit a crime the state or in that in our situation it might also be a corporation because this is also more and more being outsourced to corporations in the same way nhs uh is now in power of power is now in power of the nhs in the same way you know the police might be a tesla's police or zuckerberg's police or whoever so it's being outsourced uh i think as well and of course this this should worry us i mean what we can see in gaza these days is in which way uh uh they are already uh using ai in drones uh but in order to affect civilian population and this is the problem of technology you know that uh the same problem with nuclear nuclear technology i know for years already israeli corporations have been using uh machine learning artificial intelligence in drone in drone operations for agriculture and then you can see that of course there is the step from using ai and drones in agriculture to using ai and drones in killing people this step is very small in the same way the step from using nuclear energy for peaceful purposes to using nuclear energy for war purposes uh is also very small and so in this sense i definitely don't belong to this techno optimists techno fetishes who think yeah it's sufficient to find a new technology whether it's artificial intelligence geoengineering terraforming or whatever and this will be the solution for for all our problems uh no i think we have to go much deeper we have to go into the structural uh systemic uh foundations of our various system which is producing uh technology in that way which is producing inequalities which is actually laying the grounds for the final destruction of the planet as we as we know it wow well i think
Speaker 1that's probably a perfect point to jump off and talk about what the hell can we do about this stuff things we've clearly got some massive challenges and obstacles ahead as well as a rapidly shifting terrain in which to operate so what are your thoughts things i know that you're very active in these areas and you've got a lot of things that you're involved in what are your thoughts on what we can do as the 99 to steer things in a different direction if at all possible
Speaker 2i mean of course i don't have a recipe what we can do it's a question lenin asked 100 years ago and well uh through the last hundred years there have been plenty of uh recipes or proposals i mean from heart and neck uh empire multitude unfortunately nagril also left us recently uh to uh chantal's populism to uh various others proposals in which way or andreas mount for instance uh how to blow up a pipeline so you can see there are various proposals which range from building up mass movement to building up or transforming a political party to creating a successful narrative which would be able to inspire people and then we even go to more radical actions uh uh which uh is uh well violence which is a attacking the sources, the foundations of the capitalist machine. And if you look at it, you know, this is just out of my head, painting a possible landscape which exists today. Of course, we could then speak about the Labour Party and what kind of problems the Labour Party has, but I'm not really ready to ruin my morning by going into that story or yours. So we could speak about the impotence of existing political parties, what went wrong, in which way the enemy actually is even more successful by creating narratives about those in the party who actually, like Corbyn, who wanted a radical change, and then all these accusations of anti-Semitism and so on. So this is something everyone will face at one moment when you are powerful enough to bring things in question. This is something what Julian Assange faced as well. This sort of... This sort of character assassination, which, of course, had all the characteristics from rape to anti-Semitism, to him being a Russian spy, to him being annoying, to him riding a skateboard at the Ecuadorian embassy, even such bizarre things, ridiculous things, which were all here to show that he is a problematic guy whom you shouldn't like. And that's what happened in various ways to Jeremy Corbyn. That's also what happened. And on the European level, to a big degree also to Yanis Varoufakis, when he was finance minister of Greece, you know, they will really attack you with all the arsenal they have. And that's, in a way as well, I think, hopeful, if you want, because it shows that at some point the left actually has a possibility to bring power in question. You can see it by these harsh attacks, actually, but you could also see it by various experiences, also recent ones, for instance, in Colombia with Gustavo Petro, his stance on geopolitics, for instance. You could see that even in some parts of the world, the left is in power, of course. But that's party politics. And you asked me what we could do. Of course, I've been involved both in social movements, mainly in social movements, organizing, but also political parties. I think our first starting point, should be twofold. On the one hand, of course, it's internationalism. I think we are doomed without internationalism, especially in a situation where capital is international. The banks are international. Our enemies are pretty well connected on the international level. And that's also the reason why I'm involved in organization, which is called the Progressive International, which is actually trying to recreate not just the spirit of new internationalism, but the conditions of further, internationalist cooperation between the North and the South and the East and all sides of the world. But as I said, our starting point should be twofold. I think on the one hand, it's internationalism. On the other hand, it has to be locally grounded. On the other hand, you can't just be, I've seen many people like that, you know, an international traveler who goes from a protest to protest, from a conference to a conference, from a World Social Forum to a World Social Forum and so on. But that's not the case. That's not the case. That's not the case. That's not the case. And if you look back at his or her community, that person is not actually contributing much. So I think at the same time, besides internationalism and trying to be connected as much as we can, even a person who is not, you know, in this kind of world, try to be connected with people outside of your milieu, outside of your country, that's on the simplest level. But of course, what we have to do, who are, let's say, professional activists, to call it like that, is to build deeper connections and relations within this multitude, if you want to call it like that. But unless we are able to build different relations of care, different relations of love, different relations of solidarity, friendship on the local level, in our communities, in the building in which you are living, in the city in which you are living, in the country in which you are living, then I think also internationalism is also insufficient, which brings me to this anecdote. I think I read it the first time at Tarik Ali, who said that at one point the Italian communists came to Vietnam to meet Ho Chi Minh, and after two hours of a talk where Ho Chi Minh complained about the situation, they asked him, "Okay, so comrade, what can we do?" And he said, "Pack your things and go back to Italy, because the biggest help you can give us is to make a revolution in Italy." And I think this is something what internationalists should have in mind, you know, unless we are also able to change the material conditions of politics, economy and society in our own societies, then we also won't be able to do it on the international level. So we need a dialectics between these. But more and more, I also think that what we should be aiming at, and it's not I have to warn you immediately, it's not an anarchist escapist dream, is to try to experiment by building new social institutions, by building autonomous spaces and autonomous temporalities, which are not outside global capitalism, because there is no outside of global capitalism. You can even travel to Mars and you will find Elon Musk's shit there, you know, in an electric compost toilet or whatever. So there is no outside. But what we can do is to build parallel institutions, parallel forms of life, parallel forms of being together, parallel forms of political, economical, societal formations, which would be able at the same time to transform us before the revolution, before a political revolution. Before a political party comes to power, before a petition, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And at the same time, would enable us to lead a good life. I think that's the I mean, that's the most burning question I it's it's which is on my mind, but also on many others with whom I talk, for instance, Franco Berardi, Bifo, who is involved in the School of Autonomy on this. It is not just how do we survive these times? Because mere survival is not enough. I'm not interested in just what many people have. Unfortunately. We are condemned to these days, millions and billions, you know, bare life where you are forced to just search for food, shelter, protection, water and peace. So I know that for many people, the very question of good life is a privileged question, I would say. But I would say that posing the question about good life in extinction in times of extinction is crucial. Why? First of all, it's a question which is all this philosophy. And what is good life goes back to the question, what is good, good in the sense of ethics, good in the sense of morality, something which is, of course, completely unpopular today, who even cares about morality or ethics or whatever or good. So it's connected to a sort of ethics. So when we speak about good life, it's not that much about hedonism, about, you know, just sitting on a beach, reading a good book and not caring about the rest of the world, which, of course, people should be doing. Well, as well, I mean, it should be a human right to do things like that and completely switched off. But again, it's a privilege. But good life in the sense of ethical life, how, for instance, if you take this example, even if I sit on a beach, read a book while I know that atrocities are happening, how can this reflect a deeper ethics or morality, which is not castrating me from doing from time to time some things which every human should be doing. But could actually be integrated in a broader moral, moral value system, which would then advocate also for others to have the same possibility to do the same. So in a sense, in this sense, good life is not simply that you have a good life and I have another shelter. I mean, that's for me, that's not good life. Definitely. I'm not interested in post-apocalyptic shelters. I would say good life is how can we in the first place? When such situation, how can we, instead of having dreams of escaping to Mars and terraform, how can we actually start forming the earth itself by diminishing poverty, by diminishing inequality, by diminishing racism, colonialism, imperialism, and the never ending extraction and expansion of global capitalism? I think that's the question. So I think it's to come to my final point. What should be done? Yes, of course. Someone. Should. I'm not opposed to it. Try to infiltrate political parties or build new political parties. And, you know, you must do this for 10, 10 years, 20 years or 30 years in order to maybe come to power. Sometimes there are shortcuts, but usually not. On the other hand, you could and you should be active in social movements. And I'm active in social movements as well. But I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. 10 years.
Speaker 1And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30.
Speaker 2And I think we should all start posing these big questions, which are questions, as I said, older than 30. That's my problem with hope. Hope is more like imagination, optimism, waiting for something to happen, wishing for something to happen. And nothing is wrong with that. I mean, I very often have various imaginations of things to happen. And of course, you need to have a dream or a utopia or a desire which leads you towards somewhere. And even if you don't achieve it on the path, if you're lucky enough, you will realize that you actually found something, whatever, which is close or different from that to which you were aspiring. But I think faced with our global planetary crisis, what we need is not hope. We need determination. We need organization and we need self-organization. Terry Eagleton had a beautiful term. He called it hope without optimism. Maybe that's if he wants to keep the term hope. Maybe. That's precise because there is no reason for optimism. And I think we've seen it so many times already. I mean, maybe I'm getting old, but, you know, this kind of investment of libidinal energy into, for instance, a success of a political party. You know, you have so much hope that, you know, Corbyn or Alexis Tsipras will be the messiah finally. But they said, you know, fuck the messiah. You know, the very concept of politics where you wait for a messiah is wrong in the start. It doesn't mean that we don't need charismatic individuals. It doesn't mean that we don't need people who can take a lead at a certain point in a certain field. But this awaiting of a messiah, of a solution which will come from the sky and suddenly lead us out of the land of tears, I think that's precisely what is wrong with hope. So instead of that, I think, yeah, we need determination, organizing and self-organizing.
Speaker 1Fuck the messiah. That's the quote I'm going to use from the episode.
Speaker 3Just don't tell it to the messiah because maybe he comes the day before he was supposed to come. And then I fuck it up, you know. Finally, he was supposed to come, but then he heard, fuck the messiah.
Speaker 1Stresko Horvath fucks it up for humanity. You would love that, dude, wouldn't you? You and all your Kafka-esque perversion, you would love that. Well, look, I think it's time. We've got to take a rapid curveball here, dude, because I'm mindful of the time. And I've got to ask you about this, because I think this is something that many. Many of your fans and followers will not know about you, perhaps. But you have a background in punk rock. We share that in common, man. So tell me more. What's the deal with Stresko Horvath and punk rock?
Speaker 2Well, I'm not like you. I'm not. I'm definitely not anymore, but never been a professional or successful musician. You know, I was just a kid. I think it all started, I think, in 1992, which got sounds like the dinosaur. Time. I sound like a boomer now. Anyhow, it was Croatia. Yugoslavia was collapsing. The war was happening, of course. And a cousin of mine came from Germany and brought this CD with a bald guy who is burning in a fire. And then in a typewriter font, you have written down rage against the machine. And I think that was 92 or 93. And I was nine or 10 years old and it completely changed my life completely. so before then you know at school because that was the time of all we were all reading We were all learning these patriotic Croatian songs, which were, you know, I mean, I don't even want to begin. Pretty ridiculous, but this typical kind of ideological re-education, which comes with a new state and so on. And for me, this hardcore punk, let's call it like that, was an exit from the madness of war, from the madness of nationalism. I was not even yet a teenager. But then I remember after I heard the first track, which was Bomb Track, it really changed my life. It was like, what the fuck is this? You know, as if some alien came and gave me a CD from Jupiter or whatever. And then slowly, it was still a problem then in our landscape. We were in the period of transition from socialism to capitalism. So you didn't have the free market yet in the way we have it today. You didn't have that many Western products. And it was really, you know, a problem how to find new music. And I think that that was actually, for me, one of the best lessons I've learned for the future of my life, because that was the beginning of self-organization. You know, it was sufficient that one kid went to Germany, brought one CD, and, you know, we would dub it in hundreds of copies and everyone would have a tape with it. And I think at the mid-90s, because I knew German and the Internet just came, I think that was the time. In 1996 or something, we got our first personal computer at home, and I started to write to bands I liked. I even wrote the biggest ones at that time was System of a Down. I wrote a letter, and I received a demo tape, I think, which was like 1998 or something like that. So I wrote even to big bands who were not big then, refused, for instance, you know, we were big fans of Refused. And they always responded. I was like 12 or whatever, you know, just starting high school. And for me, that was again. It was a way to hack my way out of ex-Yugoslavia, torn by war and nationalism and turbo-capitalism. It was a way to also, at a very early age, get a push from. That's why I think what you are doing is so important, you know, to get the push from those people whom I admire. You know, I was like 12 or 13. There was someone who was 16 or 18 and already had a band, toured around Europe. He was publishing a fanzine, had some views on the world, on vegetarianism, ecology, whatever, capitalism, was reading Chomsky and so on. And that's how I actually started to really have my first political subjectivation. And then a bit later, I started a band. It was New School Hardcore, Krishna Core, Snapcase, this kind of New School stuff. Very emotional, but also very like metallic and so on. And we had a few concerts, even played with Converge. That was our biggest concert. You know Converge. Of course, yeah, yeah, hell yeah, yeah, that's awesome. And I'm so happy, I mean, that I had this experience of hardcore punk. It's still in me. And I think it's really something which, how to put it, it was unlike many other subcultures. It was really, I don't know where it is today, but the best way for political subjectivation. Because all the kind of literature from anarchism, Marxism, critique of capitalism was coming from there, from fanzines we were reading. I mean, I'm talking now about the 90s, before the internet then took over. And then many of these publications didn't exist anymore. We were organizing our own concerts and, you know, you're in a band, you know how, what kind of logistical sophistication you need sometimes and patience in order to put five people in a way, not to mention more, to travel from one town to the other, to organize one.
Speaker 1Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2So, you know, very well. And I think this experience is very useful. It was very useful later in life when I was organizing, you know, political or philosophical events for one or 2,000 people, and I already had it in my guts, you know, don't, it wasn't something, wow, science fiction, you know, we've been organizing crazier stuff, if you want, with punk hardcore. And then, of course, I think the most important thing is the sense of community, the sense of belonging, the sense of being together with like-minded people, having the same worries, the same troubles, whether it comes to first love affairs or family troubles, to the state of the world and the state of the planet. And this sense of belonging, I think, is really crucial, and it's really something which I still carry in me, not in a nostalgic way, but in a way that I'm trying to become more and more. I'm more aware in which way this experience of hardcore punk actually formed me as a person later.
Speaker 1Beautiful to hear, man. Yeah, I love that. I love that. And very, very similar journey, mate, to be honest. I mean, like, Rage Against the Machine was one of my founding moments. I mean, for me, it was a cassette, a cassette copy. You know, we had like, it was like drugs, you know, we were handing these copied cassettes around, like illicit goods, you know, in case our parents or teachers found out about it, you know what I mean? And it just, I remember listening to it for the first time. It just, hearing Killing in the name of it, I was like, well, you can say that, you know, we're all thinking it, but he's saying it, you know, it's fucking brilliant. And just the music, and it just ignited something in me of just like possibility, that rebel spirit, that kind of defiance was okay, you know, even better than okay. It was fucking awesome, and you could say it loud and proud, and just an amazing, amazing band. You know, they really changed the game. But I mean, you know, going back further than that as well, as we all do then. Once you discover something like, you go digging, you know, going back to the Clash, or like the DIY early days of punk, you know, that punk ethos of fanzines, and, you know, flyering on the streets, and graffiti, and, you know, stenciling your clothes, and stuff like that. That DIY ethos just really, really resonated with me, and it was the political aspect of it as well, you know? The anti-authoritarianism, the anti-mainstream, the communal aspect of it. It was just a real fucking... Molotov cocktail that went off inside of me, you know, at a young age, and still very much informs my politics and my way of doing things now. You know, I was, when I couldn't get a record deal, when I started out, you know, I just fucking set up my own label. I went punk rock, I did it DIY, and released my own stuff, and I've been doing it that way ever since. You know, that's kind of the model that I live by now, you know? So yeah, very much informed musically, politically, and in terms of how I handle my career as a musician, very much. I owe everything to them. And it really felt like a movement back then as well.
Speaker 4It felt like it was powerful, you know what I mean? No, I mean, it was. I mean, just the fact that the kids... I mean, where were you exactly growing up? In which city? Cardiff. How big is Cardiff? Small, I don't know, like half a million people, something like that. She is talking, but I mean, we don't even have a city with a million people in Croatia, so that's rather big.
Speaker 1I'm probably miles away, dude. I'll have to check. Don't quote me on anything.
Speaker 3Yeah, you should. Because they will not let you in back to your hometown after this.
Speaker 2But yeah, I lived in Čakovac, which was like 20,000 people. And I think when you said, yeah, it was definitely a movement, you know? If a kid in Cardiff and a kid in Čakovac, you know, a kid in capitalism and a kid after socialism had the same kind of entrance into this world, then it shows, of course, I think the power of this movement. And the fact that even today we talk about it, that even today many of these... I mean, Čakovac, I don't know, he still plays.
Speaker 4It's funny sometimes to see it, yeah.
Speaker 1But it's cool, I like it. Yeah, what's funny, man, is that I got two guys in my band who are like 21 or 22 or something like that. And they turn up to band practice in Rage Against the Machine t-shirts and Nirvana t-shirts and stuff like that. And, you know, I think that's a beautiful thing. I think that's a beautiful thing because that was a great time for music when it was authentic, before everything got fucking complicated when the internet came along. And when I see guys that age or that generation still digging that music and wearing those t-shirts, it really makes me proud, you know, because it's like to see that music living on is really heartening. You know what I mean?
Speaker 3Yeah, no, I love that as well.
Speaker 2I think once we should just take one hour and just talk about hardcore punk.
Speaker 1And not just depressed people with war, climate change, everything is shit and so on, but a bit more of this. Dude, I'm game for that conversation. Anytime you want, man. But what's the music scene like in Croatia these days?
Speaker 2I have no idea, to be honest. I really have no idea. I mean, I now lead a, let's say, family life. Don't go out that much. We're building the school on the island. There is no hardcore punk scene on the island because it's very remote. So rarely we even have concerts. So to be honest, I really don't know. I know, I mean, there is a rich musical scene, which is, you know, everything and they are, you know, different genres and the can't authors and songwriters and so on. And it's pretty rich and so on. But I just don't follow. That's what I would love to change. I don't follow music that much. Just like I did before. That's maybe a bad thing. So you send me some links and some suggestions and I would like to. Yeah. Yeah, please. No joke. I'll do better than that. Educate me.
Speaker 1Educate me. You play a concert. You play a concert for me. 100%. I'm down for it, man. I'll tell you what we'll do. We'll do a trade. You can send me some book recommendations for all those clever dudes you mentioned earlier. And I'll send you some music. And I'll do better than that. I'll send you old school 90s style. I'll send you some CDs. Great. Amazing. It's a fair deal. There we go. Done. But well, I know I'm keeping you a little bit over time, but we've got to talk about the island. So can we can we quickly explain to the listeners? listeners what is going on on the island of viz what you guys up to down there yeah i mean for
Speaker 2those who don't know these uh how to explain these yeah but no you pronounce it well but i'm just like trying to think because it's yeah it's a remote island you really have to take a ship which takes a bit more than two hours from split uh and it's in the middle of the adriatic sea it had a rich history it was the first police founded by the ancient greeks so the first city state uh in this part of the adriatic uh later all sorts of the brits also at one point came and then in the 40s it was crucial because when europe was occupied by the nazis viz was the only liberated territory in this part of europe so it was never occupied by the nazis and in fact tito uh the leader of the anti-fascist movement of yugoslavia was operating from a cave uh from uh from viz and some 10 or 15 minutes walk from this cave on the top of the island we are building a school uh and it's called isa which is also the name of the first police uh two and a half thousand years ago it was called isa but for us we use it as an acronym which stands for island school of social autonomy and uh among the co-founders of this project are the artists made in group of beatnik my dear friend actor gail garcia bernal but also pamela anderson franco berardi b for hito sterl so we have from philosophers actors to practitioners and the idea is basically to build a hybrid model and i think that's the only model which still makes sense of education which is set in the nature which is set on an island which is then in a landscape which itself is surreal although it's changing also due to climate crisis and at the same time to combine theory and practice so for instance the main aim is to respond and reflect upon the question how is it able to create levels of autonomy and good life today so we are doing philosophical reflections on it but at the same time we are trying to prototype it in a way in reality so the last two years we've been reconstructing we did it but now there is still much more work to do uh an old water tank which is a kind of method which was being used since the time of the greeks uh so more than two thousand years ago which is the method of dry stone walls in the case of the water tank you have piles of stones and then the rain water is collected slides through the stones and it's collected collected in a water tank uh anyhow we we we we learned about this traditional method from the local from the island we learn a lot from the people on the island which you could call a sort of indigenous knowledge although the term wouldn't be used here in croatia but it is because it's a knowledge which goes back to uh to the greeks to the illyrians to the romans trying to do is to combine this traditional method with the modern method of collecting rain which is cloud collectors card we have to experiment with it or for instance this summer we were experimenting with a pirate radio station uh so we got the equipment uh uh and uh we succeeded to cover the whole island with our signal and basically the idea that with this with yeah maybe next time you can come do your podcast from there yeah with a better view with a better view hell yeah better weather for sure man yeah definitely yeah but the thing is you know how this with this kind of prototypes we could actually build something uh which responds to the question of autonomy but also good life and which which is the most important thing could be translated into different contexts so for instance what we are doing when we is the idea is that these kind of things could be done and very often are already being done we are not the first ones in other places of the world and the idea is in which way the aspiration is to share this knowledge uh to also start working on creating a network of similar projects across the world who are doing stuff like this and for this year i think yeah we're organizing plenty of activities uh uh from spring onwards we are most of the time on the island and then i think in october we will have our annual event uh yeah i think after summer but during summer and other months we are involved in a lot of physical action carrying a lot of material building constructing learning uh from the islanders themselves and doing little little public programs uh and then in october we plan to do a big one so i don't know i'm very bad at promotion but if you want to find out more go to issa school.org school and you can find out more
Speaker 1information absolutely fascinating man what an incredible thing to be involved in um the website i'll put a link in the show notes so that people can click on it direct it is i double s a dash school dot org and you'll notice in the top right hand corner there's the very important button that says donate because the guys are doing this you know on on on their own budget and donations to fund this incredible project would be very very well received i'm sure yeah that would be really
Speaker 2helpful because we are still running only on our funds so we don't have any any funds basically and we depend we yeah if anyone can donate a little you see i'm very bad at this but if you can donate
Speaker 3at least 10 000 or 20 we would really be grateful yeah 10 000. but get on it guys i'll put the link in right
Speaker 1right um i'll give it a plug as well after after the conversation i'll drop that i'll drop that in the edit um see if we can get some shekels for the project because uh you're doing amazing work down there i stretch go i'm aware that i've kept you over time i better let you go but thanks so much for this amazing fascinating and inspiring conversation you're doing amazing work and please keep doing what you're doing and hopefully we'll get to um share a beer at some point you know um
Speaker 2later on in the year perhaps yeah i hope so i hope to see you on the island and don't forget the deal
Speaker 1we had cds for books cds for stretch co i got it thanks a lot thank you man thank you take care dude see you soon i really enjoyed it me too best wishes bro see you man stretch co hold that and he's gone what a dude man that conversation i'm still reeling from that to be honest it's going to take me a little bit time to process everything that dude was was was throwing at me there um what a conversation there's so much stuff in there to go and uh dig into i think that's going to warrant a second of that a third listen i think what a guy what a cool dude what a brain what a mind that guy has got and what amazing work he's doing as well so let's let's let's plug those links before we all forget the school he was just talking about on the island of vice is i double s a dash school dot org please donate i know he was joking saying about 20 grand but if you've got 20 grand check it in but honestly every little helps with these things you know like a lot of people giving a little bit of change really makes a massive difference that kind of ties in with what we were talking about earlier i think so please please you know if you can spare a little something for the incredible work these guys are doing please donate a little something but if you can't get involved in other ways check out the website for sure it's a really fascinating and interesting thing that they're doing down there and more than that you need to follow stretchco horvat because that dude is doing a lot of cool stuff he's a busy guy he's got a load of books that you can tuck into and a load of content and interviews and videos and things like that so dive into his world educate yourself and help and support and amplify that dude in any way you can because he he's he's a great guy man his twitter handle is horvat stretchco uh the spelling of that is gonna throw you off so i'll tell you what i'll do i'll just put the link in the uh in the in the show notes there please give it a click give him a follow it's not hard to do is it and uh you're gonna see some super cool stuff in your news feed i really hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as i did thank you so much for listening and before i go one more nag you know what i'm gonna say subscribe to the goddamn podcast lots more of this good stuff are coming do not miss out man i'll be back in next week with another episode with another super cool guest so uh in the meantime have an awesome week do good stuff look after yourselves take care of each other fight the power spread the truth free julian assange adios amigos
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