#58 - Codependency & Boundaries

Welcome to Beyond Bitchy, mastering the art of boundaries with Vicki Tidwell Palmer. Do you think of personal and relationship boundaries as harsh, rigid or bitchy, or do you feel clueless about how boundaries work? Whether you think boundaries are bitchy or baffling, we will give you a fresh vision of personal limits as a source of freedom and liberation. Every week Vicki shares expert information about how you can master the art of boundaries so you can get the space you need and the connection you crave. Hi, this is Vicki Tidwell Palmer and welcome to episode number 58 of the Beyond Bitchy podcast. Today's episode is going to be a deeper dive into the relationship between boundaries and codependency. I've mentioned codependency briefly on a few past episodes, but I'm getting a number of questions from listeners who want to learn more about codependency and boundaries, so it feels like the perfect time to have this conversation. And I want to start by saying a few words about the concept of codependency in general before we get started. This term codependent or codependency entered into public discourse in around the mid to late 1980s. I'm not sure if the term even existed before, I'm sure that, you know, probably a simple internet search might shine some more light on that, but I do know for sure that Melody Beatty's book, "Code Pendent No More," which was published in 1986. And P.A. Melody's book, "Facing Code Pendence," which came out in 1989, these are really the two sort of classic and seminal works publications regarding the concept of codependency. And so that's, you know, 30 years ago. And, you know, after that, the term over many years, it became kind of a joke, really. I mean, people started making fun of the concept of codependency. And it really, as a term, fell out of fashion, which I think is unfortunate because I think it's a very useful term. And I will talk a lot about that today. I believe that there are several reasons for that. One is that there was not a sort of universally agreed upon definition. I'm going to give you what I consider to be a good working definition of codependency. And if you're curious about, for example, P.A. Melody's definition or Melody Beatty's, I encourage you to look into that, and I'll give you some resources for both of those later in this episode. But there was not a good universal, universally accepted and agreed upon definition of what it is. So it became kind of muddy, you know, like, what does this mean? How do you define it? And I think the other thing that really turned people off of this term was that people started saying things like, well, you know, everybody is just codependent. And, you know, so it sort of, it reminds me of the expression where, you know, if everybody is, then nobody is. Or if everything is something, then nothing is something. And I want to push back against that because I do believe that most of us struggle with codependency, period. And when I say most of us, I can only speak from my own cultural experience. And this is true for all of us. We can only speak from our personal experience or the experience of our community or our larger culture. And I was born and was raised entirely in the United States. And so I can only speak from that perspective. But I know that pretty much everyone struggles with this. And I think it has more to do with just some basic challenges around being human, one of which has to do with fear. And fear is ubiquitous emotion among human beings. And if you couple that emotion with the need that we all have to live in community, because humans are definitely communal, communal species, we don't, we really don't do well, you know, as an island. And so if you put those two things together, it really is a, sets the groundwork for codependency. And you'll see more about what I mean by that in a few minutes. But I do believe that we all struggle with it to one degree or the other. And I do see it on a continuum. People can have just a little touch of codependency. And people can have really severe codependency. That interferes greatly with their own well-being. And also with their ability to have intimate meaningful and lasting long-term relationships with other people. So, you know, for all those reasons, it's become, or it did become a problematic term. And at the same time, I think it's a very useful term. I was first introduced to the concept of codependency in 1988. I remember it very well, because it was about, actually it was about this time, maybe a little earlier, it was in the spring of 1988. And I was given Melody Beatty's book, "Code Pendant No More" by a therapist that I was working with. And I remember at the time I could not understand at all what the connection was between her giving me this book and the idea or the concept of codependency. And what was going on in my life at the time, I was very, very unhappy. In fact, I think at that time I probably met the criteria for a major depressive episode, or maybe even major depressive disorder at that time, depending on the way diagnostic codes were being used in the late 1980s. But anyway, I was extremely unhappy. And I had no idea why. And I realized in retrospect that this concept of codependency was very much a factor in the misery and the suffering that I was experiencing at the time. And that was really proven to me when I sat down and started reading the book, because I'm not much of a book underliner or highlighter. But I remember many, many passages and lines and words in that book that I underlined or highlighted. So it had a big impact on me. I also believe that, and this is true for me, and I believe it's true for everybody who, if you know that you struggle with codependency moderately or severely, it is a life-long learning. And it continues to unfold. I see this in my own life today. Just yesterday, I was having a conversation with a really dear friend of mine and uncovered even some more layers where I see codependency in the way that I relate to, especially people in very close relationships. So, and all of us have blind spots, which is why we need other people, like, you know, in my case, when I mentioned the therapist or this close friend, we need other people that help us to really uncover these layers that we don't see because we have all kinds of blinders and experiences and all sorts of things that get in the way. So speaking of definitions, I mentioned before, I want to share with you my definition of codependency. I think of codependency as an overreliance on the response or feedback of other people, or even what you believe that another person thinks or feels. So this is about that I put way too much importance on what other people think, what they feel, what they believe, how they behave, I put a lot of emphasis on that. And the purpose that it serves is that it helps me to, or I shouldn't say it helps, it's an attempt to help me to feel less anxiety or fear or to feel better about myself and even feeling better about myself for most of us. That is driven by a fear that other people don't see us as being worthy or valuable, for example. So it's this kind of overreliance and actually a focus on other people's thoughts, feelings, behaviors, putting that above my own. Because for all of us, what we think, what we feel, what we believe in our behaviors, those are and should be the most important things to us. So when someone is reliant on other people for their own sense of safety or their own sense of esteem or worth or value, they're going to engage in a lot of overt, meaning obvious or apparent, but more often covert or hidden efforts to make that happen. So I want to say that again, people who are relying on other people for their sense of worth or value, or to lessen their own anxiety, they're going to engage in a lot of very obvious but more often hidden efforts to get that to happen. And I can't tell you how many times I've heard people brainstorming or scheming or in some other way trying to figure out how they could get someone to do or not do something or to say something or to not say something or in some other way orchestrating an event in order to have the desired impact or influence on another person. And when you think about that, you can feel how exhausting that is. I mean, most of us have a hard enough time managing and controlling our own behavior. And so when we start engaging and trying to make other people do something or orchestrating an event in just such a certain way, well, first of all, it's totally not in our power, but it can be exhausting. And it is exhausting if you try to do that. Or if I think that I'm responsible for anything that is actually another person's responsibility, something that they're accountable for, and this is, I'm talking right now about adult relationships in particular. This is also an example of codependency. It's really about I am getting on other people's side of the street. And so when you think about boundaries, you can see why codependency is a boundary problem. If I am taking responsibility or trying to control another person's thoughts, feelings, behaviors or their own issues of self-care or other personal matters, that means I have veered over to their side of the street. And I am no longer on my side of the street. And that is really the sort of the textbook definition of boundaries, which has to do with limits, meaning the limits of my circle of control. So I mentioned Pia Melody before and her book, Facing Codependence. And I want to expand on some of what she presented in that book. The book, really, the book title is a bit misleading. And what I mean by that is that she presents the concept of codependence. And she also includes a complete framework for dealing with and recovering from basically these five core issues of what she now calls developmental immaturity. But in the book, she calls them, these are the five core issues of codependency. And I'm going to talk about each one of those core issues in a moment. The other thing she presents in Facing Codependence is a framework for family of origin trauma work because what she's presenting in the book is that all of us through our own family of origin experiences, which often do include some kind of trauma, which could be mild or it could be extremely severe. That's how we get set up in terms of these five core issues. And this is where these five core issues are not handled appropriately or they're mismanaged in some way by our caregivers. And as I said, we're set up to have problems around these five core issues individually, but also in relationships. So I want to talk to you about each of these five core issues because they're very relevant to the issue of codependency and talk to you about how they're related to the relationship between the five core issues in codependency. So the first one is a steam. A steam is about my sense of value and my sense of worth, how I experience that in my life. And the concept of a steam very much relates to codependency because a person who struggles with codependency relies on other people for their sense of value or their sense of worth. And in practical terms, the way that might look is that if I can't get you to feel a certain way about me or if you have thoughts about me that you share with me that either don't shine a positive light on me or you disagree with me in some way. And I interpret that to mean that I am less than than my sense of a steam is going to fluctuate depending on your emotions about me or what you think about me or maybe your behavior. For example, if you choose to not spend time with me and I make up that that's about the fact that you don't like me, then my steam is going to suffer. And you can see already how vulnerable this makes a person. And this is so true of codependency in general. But especially with regard to a steam, your steam is going to be very vulnerable when it fluctuates depending on how other people feel think or behave toward you. So the second core issue that Pia talks about is boundaries. And of course, you know, boundaries are related to codependency for the reasons that I just talked about in terms of being on your side of the street. So whenever I am in full-blown codependent mode and trying to manipulate outcomes and whatever, however, I do that, I am not staying on my side of the street. And that is a boundary issue. The third core issue is reality. And so reality is about what you know to be true for yourself. And in general, the way that we identify our reality is that we know what we think, we know what our emotions are, we know what our behavior is at the moment. And in any given moment, that is your reality. And the way the reality issue corresponds with codependency or relates to it is that a codependent person will struggle to identify their own reality. Especially if their truth is different than another person's truth or they think that it is. And they may even try to alter their own perceptions based on another person's perceptions or what they think the other person's perception is. And I hope that as you're listening to this, you can just imagine how, again, exhausting and really time consuming and sadly a time waster. Especially if we get into we're making up what someone else is thinking or perceiving about us. And then we start acting or thinking along the lines of how we're going to change that. I mean, we're truly insane when we're doing that. So I've even heard of situations where one person in a relationship says something like, I don't want to talk about, you know, such and such, some topic to you because I know we already don't agree. And or I don't think we will agree or I don't want to talk to you about things that I know that we don't agree on. And, you know, while there are times that it is definitely preferable to choose intimacy or connection over being right with a partner to choose not to engage about your opinions or even your perceptions just across the board for fear that there will be a disagreement or your spouse or partner, you know, a good friend may not agree with you. It's really not intimate and not relational because how will the other person know who you are if you only share information about yourself, your thoughts and your feelings or your beliefs that you already know they're going to agree with. And, you know, this reminds me of the concept of, you know, if basically if I wanted to be in relationship with somebody that was just like me or if I wanted to be married to someone who was just like me then I should have just married myself. I mean, that's part of what makes life interesting is that we all have different perceptions. It's actually what drives conversation is talking about differences and it also really drives learning as well because we often learn by hearing the perception of another person that may be very, very different from ours. So, again, and, you know, this is probably another would be another great topic for another episode about how do you make that decision? You know, how do you know when to choose intimacy or connection over expressing a different opinion or when it's really helpful and relational to do so? I will say just a quick tip on that that when it's about an issue that has to do with your own wants or needs or desires, that's usually a signal that it's helpful to share that if it's an attempt to get the other person to do something or be different in some way than you're probably in trouble in terms of choosing intimacy over connection. So, back to the five core issues. The fourth core issue is dependence. Dependence is related to codependency, and you probably noticed that the word dependence is in the word codependence. Because a codependent person has an overreliance or dependence on another person's thoughts, emotions, or behavior. And again, this puts you in a very vulnerable situation. Ideally, in all relationships, we are striving in important relationships, we're striving for interdependence. That balance between being too needy on one extreme or being what PMLity calls anti-dependent or needless and wantless. So, a codependent person always defaults to the too needy end of the continuum. Again, they are overrelying on others for their sense of connection or worth or power. And then the last of the five core issues is moderation. And I think of moderation as the mother of the five core issues, because when someone is practicing moderation and all things, it automatically takes care of everything else, and in this case, the other four of the five core issues. But the way that moderation is related to codependency specifically, again, has to do with being on and staying on your side of the street. You cannot be moderate when you're attempting to control situations or people over which you have no control. And staying on your side of the street, operating only within your circle of control, is one of the ways to practice moderation in your life and in relationships. And I also want to add here about moderation. You know, when you get into that codependent urgency, and it really is an urgency, and the way it's related to moderation is you can feel when you're starting to want to manage or control a situation that you become very attached to the outcome, which drives the control even more. And that automatically will put you and catapult you out of moderation, because moderation specifically in relationship is about you have your own needs or desires or wants with regard to the relationship. And you recognize that the other person also has their own needs and wants and desires. And as much as is humanly possible, you let go of the outcome. So you express your need or your want or your desire with full knowledge that you don't have a right to get that if it relies on their response or their behavior towards you. And you know, this is very simple to talk about, but it's extremely complex to do and that's why, you know, we need these concepts and including the five core issues to help to teach us that. So I want to talk about some of the signs that you may be struggling with codependency. And I'm going to give you six. There are many more, but these are ones that I think are the most common that will help you to identify if this is a problem for you. The first one is you are overly helpful. And I think this is sort of the hallmark of codependency is that with you come across of extremely codependent person in your daily life, you are going to find that they are overly helpful. So they do things like they help when they are not asked for help. They may do things like in a close relationship, like in a spousal relationship, they may intentionally leave books lying around the house for another person to read or to see. Or they may share with the other person, wow, I'm reading this great book and it's not just to share their reality. It's because what they really want is they want the other person to read this great book. They may share what they think of as helpful information. I myself had the urge to do this the other day. I had an email that came through my email inbox that was about the dangers of sugar and how if you eat too much sugar, it can cause cancer. And what I noticed that I was immediately had a codependent inspiration to take this link and to share it with my husband. Why? Because I would really like my husband to consume less sugar. The truth is that I could probably benefit from consuming less sugar. But of course, in my judgmental opinion, I think that this problem is more his problem. And I wanted to share this article and this would have been sort of a full blown codependent relapse because how much sugar he consumes is on his side of the street. And I used to justify this by saying, well, you know, if he eats too much sugar, it's going to impact me later if he has bad health and blah, blah, blah. And basically this was just a justification for me to get on his side of the street. So I refrained my little techy thumbs from sending him this link and I am bragging right now to say that I have not mentioned a word of it to him. But this is an example of how, oh, I just know this would really help this person or they really need this or whatever. And so we share it. So another example of being overly helpful is telling other people what they should do or how they can fix their problem. And I know I've told this story before many times, probably in many context, maybe even on the podcast, but it is so glaringly blatant that I had and it's such a poster child kind of example. I have to share it again. I met someone wants who who literally told me that they were out in some public place like, I don't know in a restaurant or someone somewhere like that. And they had someone waiting on them. Like a waiter, you know, or a waitress who had was struggling with really bad acne. And this person who was telling me the story when they were younger in their late teens or early 20s, they had the same problem. And without being asked by and without even having the topic on the table, so to speak, they just, you know, spontaneously started sharing with this person. Oh, I used to have this terrible problem with acne just like you. And this is what I did to solve it. And I'm sure that it would work for you and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I just, I just bristle and just cringe when I hear that story. It was unsolicited. It's about something that's just very embarrassing and personal. And this person who did this really believed that they were being helpful. So that's another example of really helpful also giving unsolicited advice, which is another hallmark of code dependency. You know, another issue around being overly helpful is that you have the feeling that drives you're wanting to be helpful that you're needy. So for example, and this really takes a lot of self reflection. If you reflect on why is it that I feel this urge to be helpful. Is it because I am feeling needy or I want, I want someone to acknowledge me in some way or I feel useless. If I'm not helping other people, there can be so many reasons for this, but it's a good question to ask yourself. And another sign that you may be struggling with code dependency is that you, you need other people to do things in order for you to feel okay. And I talked about this before. So if you need other people to agree with you, if you need them to go with you or to spend time with you, or maybe, you know, even drilling down more, you need for them to like share your eating habits. This can happen a lot in long term. A couple of relationships is that you really want your spouse to have the same diet or sort of food plan as you do or not eat the things that you don't eat. I mean, this really is limitless, but you essentially need other people to behave in a certain way for you to feel okay, or you attempt to get another person to think or feel or behave in certain ways by telling them that you're concerned. I used to do this a lot. I would say, you know, I'm really concerned, like I'll go back to the sugar example. I'm really concerned about, you know, the amount of sugar you're consuming or something like that, which really means I'm on your side of the street and I'm trying to control what you do. And I'm also being disrespectful and I'm not even acknowledging that you're an adult and you have a right to choose to consume or not consume what you want to consume or not consume. So I want you to hear in that how codependency can set up a very apparent child relationship between two people who ought to be or who are by virtue of their, the nature of their relationship, they are equals and they are peers. So does this mean that you can never tell someone when you're concerned about something? The answer is no, but you need to be clear that the issue that you're expressing concern about is squarely on your side of the street. For example, for example, issues of safety that put you in potential danger are something that you can say something about. So for example, if you're in a vehicle and another person is driving and it's obvious that they are getting ready to barrel through a stop sign or a red light, especially if you're in a high traffic area, you are not controlling or being codependent if you say something about it because that is a safety issue and you know in the worst possible since your life may be in danger. If you don't say something about it and that is truly on your side of the street, that's something you should take control over or exercise your power over which is to create your own safety. Another sign that you may be struggling with codependency is that you get unnecessarily anxious when you don't agree with another person or when another person doesn't agree with you. So if you notice that this is causing a very high level of anxiety or fear, this may be something to look at. We all need to be able, and I'm not saying it's easy, but we all need to be able to tolerate that our loved ones and people who are close to us have different opinions and perceptions than us and that that's okay. And like I said before, it often makes life more interesting when they have a different opinion. Another sign is that you try to control what other people think, feel or their behavior through, as I said before, being helpful or by shaming or gilting them or telling them what you do in that situation. You know, I again, I used to be guilty of this when I would see another person struggling with something or doing something that I thought was wrong in some way or they weren't getting the results that I knew that they could get or believe that they could get if they would do it a different way. I would try to help them quote unquote by telling them what to do or maybe telling them what I did. You know, this is what I used to do. And you know, related to that, another sign is that you give unsolicited advice. So what I just said before is an example of that if I'm trying to help somebody out again or tell them what to do and they didn't ask me to help them, then I am on their side of the street. Clear sign of codependency. So I want to give you some ideas and tools for how you can stop this kind of codependent behavior if you are clear that you're struggling with this. And again, you know, as I said, all of us have a little touch of codependency. But again, when it's full blown or even moderate, it can really damage your own experience, you know, your day-to-day feelings of well-being. And for sure, it's going to damage your relationships because, you know, think about this. If you're in a relationship with someone who's frequently trying to tell you what to do, which is disrespectful in an adult relationship, or they're trying to control you in some way, what is your knee-jerk response to that? Well, I know my knee-jerk response to other people trying to control me is to back them off to put up a wall of some kind or just escape, you know, run away. And especially in an intimate relationship, those are not the kind of responses that we would like to promote in the other person. So one of the ways that you can put an end to codependent behavior is for you to get really clear about what is on your side of the street and what is in your circle of control and what is not. And as easy as this sounds, it's really not all that easy. You know, the example I gave you before that I used to justify saying something to my husband about his health habits because, well, you know, eventually this might impact me. Those kind of thoughts were just a justification for me to move over from my side over to his. Because again, as an adult person, he has a right to choose what he does, how he spends his time, what he puts in his mouth, what he, you know, consumes with his eyes, the whole thing. He's an adult just like I have that same ability to make those choices in a right to do so. Another way that you can put an end to codependent behavior is to really work on avoiding offering help to another person unless they directly ask for your help. And again, this is so challenging for people who struggle with codependency. So for example, if your spouse says to you, you know, I'm going to need to print out these statements from such in such account. Well, if you listen closely, that is not a question. It is not a request. And to be fair, it may be an indirect bid for you to jump in and fix it, especially when you know that the other person doesn't know how to do it without your help. And, you know, it's worth mentioning here that when a person is fairly codependent in a relationship, it can set up this kind of dynamic where the partner knows that by making an indirect or more passive statement like, you know, I'm going to need help doing this. That's not a request. It's more of an indirect statement. They know they don't have to make a request because the other person who's codependent is going to jump up and do whatever it is that they want them to do. So this is the kind of dance that starts to occur in a relationship where at least one person is codependent. So, you know, if you know that this is a pattern for you, you can just simply say something like, okay, and then forget about it until they actually ask you directly. So if your spouse is something, you know, more passive or indirect like, yeah, you know, I really don't know how to do that or, you know, I'm probably going to need some help with that. You can just acknowledge that you heard them and just say, you know, okay, or yeah, I hear you, but I really encourage you to completely forget about it until they ask you directly for help. And again, this is something that I've been guilty of doing in the past, you know, jumping to other people's aid when they didn't ask for help. So I know that it's very hard to stop. And also if you have this kind of dance going on in your relationship at first, it's going to be awkward. It's going to be awkward for you because you're changing a behavior, but it's also going to be awkward for the other person because they will often sort of sit there and expect you to do what you've always done in the past. And they may even get angry with you that you're not doing what they thought you should do. And they may be angry that they're going to have to ask you directly. But again, their adults and adults don't get their needs met unless they either take care of themselves or they ask another person for help. And really expecting otherwise is not really being in your adult. It's just rather childlike. So, you know, over time, this dynamic and this dance will change, but at first it can be a little wobbly on both people's part. And you know, I want to add something to that as well because if this is a common dynamic for you, you may need to say something like, are you asking me to do that? Again, you know, by the strict letter of the law, someone might say, well, you're still being codependent because you're sort of trying to take care of their needs. But some people will really just not get it that they need to ask for help. And it's sort of a way to let them know that a request is going to be needed. I wouldn't say, well, you're going to have to ask me, although I have heard people doing that. It's not the most relational thing. But if they continue to be indirect, you could say, you know, I'm not really clear. Are you asking me to do this? That's another way that you can essentially promote more clarity. But if you can kind of hang with the not responding to see if the person can essentially figure out that they need to make the request that's preferable. Another thing that you can do to start stopping your codependent behavior is to pay really close attention to your own intentions when you share with another person. So referring back to my urge to send my husband a link to an article about how sugar causes cancer, my intention was to get him to cut down on his sugar consumption. And of course, that's not within my circle of control. And so what I want you to think about is, why am I wanting to share this information? Is it out of control? Or am I sharing something about myself that I want the other person? Am I sharing a need, a want, or a desire that has to do with me? Not about what I want the other person to do, think, or feel. Another thing I highly [BLANK_AUDIO] recommend if you want to go deeper into your work around codependency is to read P.A. Melody's book Facing Codependence or Melody Beatty's book Codependent No More. Melody Beatty also has a great daily meditation book called The Language of Letting Go. I love that meditation book. It has fantastic information and of course short daily readings around this whole issue of codependency, and I'll put the links to those books in the show notes for this episode. Another thing you can do if you really want to take your work around codependency deeper is to try attending a 12-step community that focuses on issues of codependency. The 3 that I would recommend would be codependence anonymous or Alonon or adult children of alcoholics. Now you have to keep in mind that for Alonon or for adult children of alcoholics you would need to, for Alonon specifically you would need to identify as a person who is impacted by another person's problematic alcohol consumption, which pretty much almost everybody on the planet really could qualify for that. Adult children of alcoholics, even if you don't have a parent that you believe is an alcoholic, I think it's this program specifically would be better thought of as adult children of dysfunctional families, because what I've seen over the years is that a lot of people who do not have a parent, either neither parent was an alcoholic, but they may have had some other issues like for example religious fanaticism or even love addiction. They had these same dysfunctional family characteristics, and so you may identify, but for sure codependence anonymous would be definitely a fit if you're working on codependency. And I want to mention too especially for anyone who's your new to 12-step communities, or you've never been to one, I want to just offer you some things that might be helpful to know. First of all, they are truly anonymous. You can go to a 12-step meeting or attend one on the phone or online. They have lots of online and phone meetings now in many programs. They're truly anonymous. You can, for example, in an in-person meeting, you can literally walk into a meeting, sit down, never say a word, and walk out at the end of the meeting. You're not compelled to share your name or even use your real name, so they truly are anonymous in that way. And they're also, unless the meeting schedule says closed, they're all open meaning that you can go to that meeting if you choose to. As long as you identify and you essentially qualify, so to speak, for that meeting in the ways I talked about before, in terms of melanin or adult children of alcoholics, which is also sometimes referred to as ACOA or ACA. And as I said before, you don't have to share. You are not compelled to share. Even if someone calls on you, you could say, "I pass." You do not have to share even if you're called on, not all meetings do that, but some do. And as I mentioned before, you know, you can find meetings just with a simple internet search of codependents anonymous or alanon or adult children of alcoholics. And like I said, many have phone or online meetings, so no matter where you are, most of the time these days you can find the meeting to attend to see if it's a fit for you. And I usually encourage people to not just to go to one meeting. I usually tell people to go to either four to six meetings before deciding if that program is a good fit for you, because often the meetings are very different depending on what day you go, who's there, how many people are there, many, many other factors. These communities often have what are called big books or books that contain the principles of their program along with some member stories, you know, stories of people who have worked that program and who have a story of experience, strength, and hope to share. So, you know, if you're not yet ready to go to a meeting or you don't want to go, you could start by getting one of these big books from one of these 12-step communities. I think most of them you can find on Amazon or what's called the International Service Organization, every one of these 12-step communities has what's called an ISO or an International Service Organization where you can often find the books there. And if you're in a large city like where I'm based in Houston, I know for example, I think AA and Alonon, they have their own bookstore, they have a real sort of brick and mortar bookstore you can go and look at all the books that they have available. So, you know, like I said, I believe that all of us struggle with codependency to one degree or another. And when codependency is severe, it can have a very damaging effect on us individually and on all of our relationships. And in fact, severe codependency can ruin relationships or it can render you unable to have meaningful and intimate relationships. So, it's worth taking a look at and working on if you believe that it's a problem for you. So, till next week, I invite all of you to embrace the power you have to create the boundaries you want to create so that you can get the space you need and the connection you crave. See you next time. Thanks for listening to BeyondBitchie Podcast. Head over to BeyondBitchie.com for show notes, the BeyondBitchie blog, and other resources to help you master the art of boundaries. Till next time, remember, boundaries aren't bitchy.