#567 Maggie Freleng with Lance Alford

Joy is essential and it's also elusive, but now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101, it's a new podcast hosted by me, Hota Kotby. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid uplifting and moving on air chats. Open your free iHeartRadio app search, Joy 101 and listen now. Joy 101 with Hota Kotby is presented by CVS. This is Michael Rappaport and my podcast, the iAmRappaport stereo podcast is unlike anyone you've ever heard. If you're looking for strong opinions about sports, entertainment, politics, pop culture, and whatever else catches my attention, then subscribe now. This kid, Jafar Jackson, should absolutely positively get nominated for his portrayal as Michael Jackson. Listen to iAmRappaport on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you thought it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Danny Shapiro and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets. He kind of showed me out of the way and said move and he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off and that was the last time I saw him. Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. On the night of May 22nd 2005, a young man named Salvador Martinez was pushed to the ground in an alleyway near Dudley Grange Park in Camden, New Jersey. A few witnesses claimed to have seen two assailants rifling through his pockets before one of them fatally shot Salvador and police took a statement from one of the witnesses named Carol Laughland, who would eventually name 24-year-old Lance Alfred. Carol Laughland, when she first got asked about the situation, he said he had this to the guy I'm saying but he's not from around the area. "I'm from around the area. This should get locked if we're all in personal charges. Now I'm going to go see her again. And somehow I've got my name down in the picture. I'm going to get my name up. But I don't know." And perhaps a more salient question is not how but whom. The person leading this investigation for the Camden County Prosecutors Office was Sergeant Martin Devlin, who we've seen in multiple wrongful conviction cases practicing a similar pattern. The single photo identifications shown to alleged witnesses with something to gain. "The three eyewitnesses who did testify against Lance at the trial were shown a single photo of Lance rather than a photo array. And when you're shown a single photo, that's a very suggestive form of identification. The police are telling you this is who we think committed the crime." By the time Lance was taken to trial, Carol Laughland's story had changed to something that was provably false. "The first statement about how she seen a guy get shot while he was standing up. Don't need Matt Jeff with this forensic evidence in the case. And they still let this lady check the fly alive on me. Come on, man, you're playing a game. You're playing with my life. You know what I mean? "I'm Lance, but I'm so finished, but I'm a crime. I was locked up. The last 6, 2005, and I've never got out ever since." From Laughland's Good Podcast, this is wrongful conviction with Mackie Freeling. Today Lance Alfred. [Music] Camden, New Jersey, is a small city just over the Delaware River from Philadelphia, where an industrial boom in the late 19th century was followed by a bust in the mid to late 20th century. The company is left town for cheaper labor, leaving the economy and quality of life to crumble. "I was born in Canada in 1980 and my mother, she was on all, working two jobs, started to fly for three kids. She finally decided to start to move without a candidate into Cherry Hill in 1986-87." Cherry Hill is an affluent mostly white suburb, a recipient of what was known as White Flight during the Great Migration of the Jim Crow era. When many African Americans ventured north for potentially kinder communities, as opposed to the south, only to see large swaths of white folks head to the suburbs from the cities, bringing their tax base and school funding with them. "I loved it out there, school was out there good at age, moved out here for a while and we were doing good out there. But that got murdered when in 1988 in Canada." "When I was eight years old, my mom got a call and she was telling me, "You better call your dad, got a shot." "And all I remember is my mother taking all three of our kids to the hospital, Cooper Hospital in Canada. And it's like, sorry to tell you that your kids father didn't make it." "And I'm like, wow, I was like seven, eight years old, my father passed away. I'm like, "Well, I didn't know how to fill, that was young, it hit me hard, but I didn't know how to fill." In the aftermath of that loss, Lance's mother kept the kids in Cherry Hill for as long as she could. "I was seven grade, I moved back to Canada. I was three ninety, two ninety three, I could mow like it's too hard out here, paid the bills, moved back to Canada." So, we'd back out there in the hard place that we could grow up. So we just trying to make ends meet and survive. That's what we could. I felt like I had the full of wood to help my mother take care of us. Me doing that, I was rolling to life, the environment around me. "Yeah, I caught up in selling drugs and everything. But I wasn't the type of dude there, I wasn't the type of hard, gangster dude, and I was just trying to make money." It wasn't long before Lance was pinched for possession, putting him on the radar of the local authorities. And by spring 2005, Lance was 24 years old. And it appeared that local police were actively trying to pin something more serious on him. "I remember I was sitting on a bus stop, it was at night time, like four or five cop cars pulled over on me, when they said, "The passers-by didn't want to speak to you." "What? What do you mean? I don't know if you're talking about it. They put me in the car, put me down to the station, and they put me in a little room behind the window, and they'd get these people to come in there and they'd like try to identify me. Something like that. What did they know? And all I heard was remember people saying, "No, it's not the guy, it's not the guy. I'm looking at the elevator, he's talking about it." "I don't know, I got locked up for this." So Lance was dragged into a single person lineup for either this or something else entirely, we're not sure. But what we do know is that on the night of May 22, 2005, on a very narrow street, with even narrower alleyways that run between some of its row houses, a young man named Salvador Martinez was fatally shot in one of those alleyways that lead out to the north side of Deadly Grange Park. A park that was known for folks hanging out, drinking, and drug use. And so there were a number of witnesses in the area, including two women named Lillian Davis and Carol Loughland, as well as a man named Fia Kim. But that night, no one could identify the assailants. The eyewitnesses of the crime observed two men wearing hoodies, shoot this man Salvador Martinez, and it was super dark. This was late at night. And all of the eyewitnesses testified to being very far away from the crime. Didn't get a super good look, but yeah, just two guys, one shore and one tall, running away from the scene. But neither of those heights corresponded to Lance, who is much taller than even the tall guy. That was Julia Kingston, one of the students with the Princeton making an exonery program. She and a fellow student named Nelson Rogers, among a few others, reinvestigated the case. There were several really compelling eyewitnesses who were not interviewed or didn't testify in his trial. And I think they were lately overlooked during the investigation process. Yeah, two of the witnesses who he spoke with, Wanda Lane and Keith Pettington signed affidavits, swearing to their presence on the scene and their confidence that it was not Lance who committed the crime. And so the question becomes what changed for other witnesses and why Lance? So Lance was involved in dealing drugs and came to that time. And so he was already on the police's radar. And also we have reason to believe that Lance, he got an altercation with someone who then was like out to get him. He was in an altercation with someone whose father, I think, then said, I'm like, gonna go get Lance Alfred. And then I believe went to the police and said it was Lance Alfred who shot South of Martinez. That's how he gets wrapped up in the whole situation. At that point, it appears that the detectives revisited some of the witnesses to show them a single photo. It was of Lance. That's a very suggestive form of identification. Normally a witness is shown an array of photos and the idea there is just to not suggest to them. This is who the police think committed the crime to make it as fair as possible. The detectives in our case detective Greer and Falco as we've elucidated had really shoddy investigation techniques and irrigation techniques. But the whole thing was overseen by Sergeant Marty Devlin, who has since been put on trial for perjury. And so is known as a pretty dirty cop. Our listeners may remember Sergeant Martin Devlin from other cases we've covered Tony Wright, Jimmy Dennis, Walter Allgrad, Troy Coleman, Pedro Reyno, so all while Devlin wasn't Philly. And while he retired, Devlin went to work. work as an investigator for the Camden County Prosecutor's Office. "Here with the Supervisor Mark K, so I see the pattern, so the Navy was going to put it up, he was distracting people to say what he wanted to say, "Coherson, people, we know what I mean, detracting was he was doing it with real aggressive. This guy was going a lot of damage in Camden and it filled it up. Lance's attorney Justin Bonus has discovered a cohort of men out of Camden, some of whom have come to know each other while in prison. After it appears that Martin Devlin helped put them there with the same pattern of single photo identifications made by coerced or incentivized eyewitnesses, we'll link to our coverage of Man for the Younger's Case, another that Justin brought to us before participating in the Making and Exonery program with Lance." "As Justin said in our documentary, and when you're shown a single photo, the police are telling you this is who we think committed the crime." "And speaking with Justin, you know, we learned about single photo identification and how police get around that by claiming that the witnesses know the person. And so the police essentially claim that these strangers know Lance from wherever, even though there's testimony in affidavits, because they come kind of after the fact that they don't know him at all, which means that the single photo procedure really is not valid." "And it seems like these investigators were well aware of how unreliable the identifications were, especially when speaking with witnesses, Lillian Davis and Carol Loughlin." "Carol Loughlin, when she first got asked about the situation, she said, 'Yeah, I did see the guy on the face, but he's not from around the area. I'm from around the area. This you can lock the full, all personal charges, this you can go and see here again. Is it this guy? Now someone's gonna get out of the desk and say, 'Yeah, come on man, you really. '" But Lillian Davis had no reason to cooperate or be pliable. He refused to make the ID, even though she stood right next to Carol that night. Then Devlin Greer and Falco went to Tia Kim, who was facing charges while on probation as a sex offender. And it seems in order to avoid being thrown back in prison, Tia Kim was now ready to cooperate as well, saying that the two assailants he'd seen running out of the alley had passed him in the park, and now he claimed that he'd seen Lance's face. And later, Kim claimed that he'd seen the other guy's face too. Someone he remembered from middle school, Zaire McDaniels. Zaire is my cousin, that's my first cousin. He has a mother and my mother assist this. This probably, he lied to me about what all the air quality stations say now is air for warrants. Now I mean, traffic won't like what? When he locked me up for us, when they cops, you know what you're here for, it's like air for a murder, I'm like murdered. So I knew to do got shot because I'm just from the area. But when he put it on me, I'm like, 'What the hell are you talking about?' Lance was at home with his girlfriend Aisha at the time, his mother, Gloria, was also at home at the time with the two of them. And this was over 20 years ago, and Aisha and Lance are no longer involved. She has gone on to have a family and children with someone else, and to this day still swears that she was with Lance that night, and he could not have committed the crime. I tried to explain to all my side of the story, but they kind of like, like, 'No, we know what you're doing. You know you did it like, 'Oh, I've done something to y'all, because they don't want to let you hear them yell, they need someone to hear me yell. So, you know, I was locked up July 6, 2005, and I never got out of the sense. Joy is essential, and it's also elusive. You can't order it, you can't borrow it, or simply hope it into life. But now, there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me, Houda Kotby. Together, guys, we'll have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people. Entertainment Legends, Sports, Icons, Wellness Experts, and everyday people will share how they find, allow, and experience joy. And I'll offer some of my own tips and takes on seeking a more balanced and harmonious life. Giving inspiration, support, and useful tools to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting, and moving on air chats. Joy after a breakup, Joy is an empty nester, Joy after a loss, Joy as a caretaker. This new podcast will speak to you. Listen to Joy 101 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Keith Jiamanko seemed like a mild mannered suburban dad, but secretly he became someone else, a master of disguise who went on a crime spree. At the time did it seem like a crazy idea? It seemed very crazy, but I felt so desperate that I felt it was the quickest, easiest way out. Did you allow yourself to think about how we could go wrong and what that might look like? No. I didn't want to manifest that. I wasn't. I was trying to manifest success. Every family has its secrets. But what happens when you discover that your dad has been living a double life? That is not the look of an innocent man. This is going to change my life and my family dynamic forever because everything that had existed prior in my reality is now untrue. Listen to Deep Cover, The Family Man. I mean, I heart radio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. June is Black Music Month and on the Drink Champs Podcast, we're speaking with the hottest names in the culture, like Sway Lee. Do you realize how legendary you are? I appreciate it. I've seen it, but I'm like, master got like so much more to do. Like Prince, he's got like 30 albums. We got like fire right now. That's the rate we got to be going. Yep. That's a good attitude. I also hear stories from industry legends and hip-hop pioneers like Fab Five Freddie. I directed when the Nasda's the early video. Which one? One love. Wow. Yes. I literally filmed in his apartment in Queens Bridge. His mom was still up in that apartment. Nasda was just beginning to take off. His pops used to live near me in Harlem. His dad introduced him to a whole lot of, you know, conscious stuff and he made a young prodigy. No matter the era, Drink Chance brings you the biggest names and the most unfiltered conversations. Listen to Drink Chance from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, these, that's the thing at each time, you're like, I was this big time somewhere you are, and all that. I didn't even have money for Bill, like, come on, man. That Bill was 350's cash. I mean, I didn't even have money for that. While Lance and Zaya were in pretrial detention, another alleged witness named Jacob Eller came forward. This guy came to them five months after the murder, so he's going to call the prosecutor. I need help getting out of jail. He's telling them to do so drugs for me, which is alive. I don't even know what he's got like that. Eller, who was seeking leniency in his own charges, claimed that he'd overheard a discussion about the victim owing Lance Money and claimed that he saw Lance get into his car with the gun. But on the eve of trial, it's believed that Eller told investigators he had lied and did not want to testify, which is then believed to have had prompted a recorded statement on February 21, 2007, where Eller said that he only wanted to avoid testifying out of fear of reprisal from the defendants. Strange that they'd get him on the record about that, right? Anyway. My trial started February 22, 2007. Jura came forward and said one of the jurors was talking about my tattoo on my face because I got a tear drop on my face. And my tear drops represent my father getting murdered and my grandma dying. So one of the jurors took that ass. He got a tattoo on his fave, but he made a dish on me for the warm. Oh, under the jurors told another juror about that to the judge. So when that brought it up, she said, I'm talking about it tattooed because it's not a tear drop tattoo, can mean personal hardship, like a lost loved one or that one has committed an act of violence or murder. So now everyone in the jury was thinking about the potential meaning of Lance's tear drop as trial began, where the state presented Jacob Eller who testified consistently with his November 2005 statement while the state was ready with his video statement in case he weltched. And when he was cross examined about his deal, he said that he was seeking justice for his friend while also trying to secure release. The prosecution also reminded trial counsel at sidebar to back off where they'd play his video statement from the day prior. Then the akin testified. The akin was saying he was in a park smoking dragon and he said, God, get shy to see the spot. He said two guys all black on run from the crime scene. He waded a bag of the parks where he ran towards him and keep running towards him until he'd seen a face. He a Kim identified both Lance and Zair and on cross trial counsel was able to raise that Kim was on probation for a sex crime facing another charge and that he already entered a plea agreement with the prosecution in April 2006. But Kim claimed that his testimony had nothing to do with the deal he got. In addition, he said that he remembered Zair from middle school. I'm like, hold up. How do you go to school? Have you studied years older? So they they rehearsed him and say, Oh, no. Now you need to say you seem around the school. I'm like, come on now. And Carol Loughlin's testimony had problems as well. Her statement about how to do died on the match. I was at this forensic evidence. the case. She told my two seen a guy get shot while he was standing up. The first guy to say the dude got shot while he was on the ground, laying on the ground. At the end, you got a Lillian Davis. Let's be standing right next to Carol Auckland. Lillian Davis said she couldn't see the boy with face and Carol standing right next to her, saying the guy ran up to her and she's seen the guy from like, what? Lillian Davis didn't say that. So my young story's not out enough. She given a totally different count. So I'm like, come on now. And they still let the lady check the fly alive on me. But Lance still had his alibi witnesses. His girlfriend and mother. And then my lawyer never called her in there. So they tell you got a thing to tell you said, the witness cannot be in trial. Have a mother sit outside a trial the whole time. And I'm like, why are you doing? Why you didn't come on mother? My behalf. Unfortunately, loved ones are often easy to impeach as willing to lie. But now, neither of the women he loved could support him through what happened next. Going to the end of trial and the jury sent milk to the judge, Judge nature. And one was like, we want to read all the witness testimony back over again. And he basically told them they couldn't do that because they don't have a video on what the testimony yet. And he told them it's going to take a long way to read it over. Then it was before. So I'm like, why would he say that? Why would he come? Some go take longer? The jury don't want to be there that long. Anyway, they don't want to hear that word longer period. So we can go back in there after that. It was like, just in all charges. It felt like you get in the air knocked out of you. Like, this is going to be my life for the rest of my life. Joy is essential and it's also elusive. You can't order it. You can't borrow it or simply hope it into life. But now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me. How to copy together guys will have meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people. Entertainment legend, sports icons, wellness experts, and everyday people will share how they find, allow and experience joy. If you're craving inspiration, support and useful tools to maximize your joy, tune into these candid uplifting and moving on air chats. Joy after a break up, Joy is an empty nester. Joy after a loss. Joy as a caretaker. Listen to Joy 101 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. June is Black Music Month. And on the Drink Chams podcast, we're speaking with the hottest names in the culture, like Sway Lee. I appreciate it. I'd be seeing it, but I'm like, I'm asked to go like so much more to do like Prince. He's got like 30 albums. Yeah, that's a good attitude. You also hear stories from industry legends and hip hop pioneers like Fab Five Freddie. I directed when the Nasda's early videos, which one? One love. Wow. His pops used to live near me and Harlem. His dad introduced him to a whole lot of you low conscious stuff and he made a young prodigy. Listen to drink chance from the Black Effect podcast network on the I Heart Radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Keith Jim. Uncle seemed like a mild mannered suburban dad, but secretly he became someone else, a master of disguise who went on a crime spree. At the time, did it seem like a crazy idea? It seemed very crazy, but I felt so desperate that I felt it was the quickest easiest way out. No. I wonder I was trying to manifest success. Listen to Deep Cover the Family Man. On the I Heart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. They sent me to the state president. You know, I made a maximal president in Jersey. So getting here, you get corn chain for a week. They sent me to another unit called for right. Man, this for right unit is like a old horse people. I don't know if you know anything about this presence right here. The West compound is present with the first built this thing in 200 years ago, 200, 50 years ago. This thing is old, man. It's crazy. I'm like, whoa, you got me standing at horse people. It's crazy. Like it's like I was like messed up in the head when I've seen this stuff. It's still old in here. You know, I mean, you got to actually go to the bathroom in a metal box in a wall. You know, I mean, it's crazy. It's just terrible. And it eventals to get them to spot right here. Well, I'm not. But yeah, it's spooky in here, man. You see crazy. It's crazy. Not the lab, but I laugh to keep myself a crime, man. It's serious. It is serious. They've got these men staying in what looks like a horse stable, you know, structure that was built during the era of slavery, which really has never ended since, according to the 13th Amendment, both he and Zaire could now be put to work next to everyone else in prison for free. So in their effort to escape enslavement on appeal, they pointed out that Kim had entered into another plea agreement with the prosecution just four days after their trial, which certainly called his credibility into question. They had to say on the pill at the same time, he only had Kim line on them. I had two people on on the head, you know, they gave him a new trial. They're not my till. And then when he got a new trial, he went back to court and he was like, he was telling me like they're not playing fair. They're not trying to hear what's our side of the story. They still think we built the other stuff. So he like, they fought us once. So he said, I'm not going back to trial. I'm taking the deal. He went back at the good deal. Again, I think it's been two years, which is still so wrong, but at least not as harsh as the life sentence, Lance still had to fight. Yes, but they tell you you can first come down. You got to you got to fight for your life, man. You got it. That law library and get the knowledge and understand it on your case. And kind of know the law. That's what I did. Lance filed a postconviction relief motion based on ineffective assistance of counsel, raising how trial counsel failed to elicit from Jacob Eller that he told the prosecutor that he'd lied in his original statement as well as that trial counsel knew about the Kim's post trial plea deal, but failed to confront him with it. Additionally, that trial counsel failed to present his alibi or alternate suspects. Apparently there were witnesses who named two other individuals that went by ghost face and Romulus. But since the evidence to support these claims were not properly developed or presented in the post conviction motion, it was denied in 2011. So did not so much at the wild. You come numb to it. When you get by time to get to the fence and the hey, you come numb to life. It's going in my life. But I feel like, man, I just have to keep going. Keep fighting. I can't lay down. So I have to get after David to put it up that I had people that come to court from our behalf. So I look at the after David and make that in court and show him like this is what I had. I gave it to the Lord. He never submitted it. You know, he never invested in by the by so they sent it back on her partial reman on that 2020. It's like a everyditchy here to prove to them that I told my attorney about my alive by so that's what they sent it back on. I got that open right now. We know that. And at the same time, that's when I heard about what Justin did with on to Ron Hill. Attorney and friend of the show, Justin bonus, one relief for another innocent man out of Camden, Teran Hill. And from his case, he discovered a whole host of others that involved Martin Devlin, single photo identifications and incentivized or coerced false testimony. Teran told about me. Another guy's in here. And that's why we ran into Justin. Justin, I'm like, man, he been got to answer my prayer because I need help. Justin bonus, Lance's attorney hired a private investigator named Bill Trump, who was able to track down both Carol Loughlin and the Akim who both admitted that the police essentially told them what to say. And they repeated the police's instructions. The Akim said, I've never seen Lance in my life. This has happened in 2023 when Peter Kim, we can't statement saying how he was coerced by all the investigators because he was in probation, the executive and they said, if you didn't say what we want to say, we want to violate the probation. I believe the police said something to the effect of look, we can make this all go away if you say that you know this guy. And so that's what he did. Carol often basically said the same thing. Kim said, she didn't really want to talk, but she's basically said to the investigator, she did with a so hard a deal. You know me. We already know Carol Loffland was unreliable as she was inconsistent over three interviews and trial testimony. Her narrative conflicted with both the forensic evidence as well as Lily and Davis, who was allegedly standing right next to her during the crime. In addition, she only decided to name Lance an exchange for leniency in her own charges. In addition to the Akeem and Carol Loughland, the private investigator spoke with new witnesses, Wanda Lane and Keith Pennington. "The investigator William Trump, he, when God statement for me, but when he said that he was here at the time to try and happen, he knew I wasn't there." Unfortunately, Jacob Eller could not be located. But we know that the prosecution was motivated to create a video on the day before trial with Eller saying that he didn't want to testify out of fear of reprisal, which came in handy to make trial counsel back off in cross-examination. And would have been useful if Eller chose to recant on the witness stand. So while this has all been added to an amended petition, Lance sought clemency from the governor. "Yeah, so we've actually had some pretty good news. His sentence was commuted by Governor Murphy of New Jersey, which we think is a huge deal. There were thousands of clemency applications, and he only granted a couple hundred. I think he'll be eligible for parole beginning in 2030." "As part of his commutation, he's also being moved to a lower security facility." "Obviously, this is not a total exoneration, which is what we would desire for him, but given that the alternative is a life in prison, we're really excited that the end is in sight for him and his family." You know, when you sit across from Lance and Lance's mom and Lance's brother and at the documentary screening, we were sat in the road just in front of his niece. And when you see how this bronchal incarceration is so brutal on the family, this is an experience that will never leave me and that will always inform how I go about my business with integrity, compassion. Right now I'm apparently going to the prosecutor's office and I'm considering it, you know, longer term. The worst thing that you can do as a prosecutor hands down is what these people have done to Lance." Julia, you know, how has your idea of the criminal legal system changed from, you know, doing this course in Lance's case? It's such a cliche, but it's cliche because it's true. I really think it's just laid bare for me how broken the criminal legal system is and how it's stacked against poor people, black people, people who don't have resources. And for me, I would say I'm considering a path in public defense and I think just like one of the most important kind of moral imperatives I see is the right to an effective assistance of counsel. And Lance was not given that and so many people are simply not given that. This case really just elucidated for me how much is broken in our system and how really what so many people need are just advocates and people to not only tell their stories but also people to listen to their stories. I think that's something that's so special about making an exonery. There's been a really high success rate of people who have been able to walk out of prison in the years following their participation in this program for every person who's been able to walk out of prison. There are still plenty of program participants who remain incarcerated to this day. But I think while it's not a solution, but just having a room full of 100 people watch your documentary and hear your story and have your story told in your words on your own terms, I think for a lot of the participants in this program, that's just a really special experience and a transformative one. What made you guys want to choose making an exonery as something you were going to pursue? I first learned about making an exonery from a friend who took the class at Georgetown a year or two before and had just like rave reviews about it and she actually went on to work for the program in the years after she graduated. And so when it finally came to Princeton, she said to me, "Look Nelson, you have to do this." The two lawyers who are teaching the class, who are Chelsea, Melkin and Yosha, Gunas Akira, they're incredible. They are really kind people who are going to really ignite a passion in you for defense work, which they did. I mean, they were amazing. Just having the experience of working with a wrongfully convicted person, their family, going to the prison, these are all experiences that are incredibly transformative. There's a lot of people who, in college, are rightly really passionate about criminal defense, but there's probably pretty few actually who go to a prison to speak with incarcerated people there. And so to be able to have really tangible experiences like that is invaluable as we sort of take these first steps in our very nascent careers. Yeah, I think for both of us, we took this course our senior spring. So it was one of the final courses that we took during undergrad. And I think for me, I just was looking for something that could make me feel like I was leaving college and going out into the world and actually doing something important that wasn't just reading and discussing in a classroom, but that I could actually have an experience where I could help someone and it was a lot of work. Both of us were writing our feces while we were also going to Philly and Camden every weekend to see Lance into conduct interviews and visit the crime scene. And so it was definitely quite the chaotic spring, but also so, so rewarding in the end. We definitely hope to see great things from both of you in the future. We'll also link to the documentary that you both made about this case in the episode description, along with contact information for his attorney, Justin bonus. While the commutation to an earlier parole eligibility is progress, Lance should not be spending another minute in prison, let alone another five or ten years. So we are begging. If anyone out there has information, please come forward. Yeah, I've had a bit of a question like this, more information like somebody came forth like a month ago. They do their position in the crime lockup work, confess to him that he's in the crime. The investigator, William Trump, talked to him, "Awesome." He told him everything, "I was locked up with this guy, when we were born in the feds and he told me everything that he did about this crime, he got two innocent guys locked up." And that was a blessed, I got that statement. You have one minute remaining. So it was a blessing. It was blessed that you guys have known this to bring more light to the situation that I'm married. It was slowly and stuff that was done in the dark and I mean to my situation. So I'm glad that you guys are bringing the light to the situation. So I'm thankful for working with you and I'm in and anybody else that would have worked out bringing a troop out. You got great. Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink as well as executive producers Jason Flom, Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wurtis and Jeff Clyburn. The music in this production was supplied by three-time Oscar-nominated composer J. Ralf. Be sure to follow us across all social media platforms at LavafrGood and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on all platforms at Maggie Freeling. 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