562 | Fantasy Self

[MUSIC] >> It's focused on backwards. >> Yes, the minimalist, I'm Joshua Fields, no burnt decay. Coleman is here coming up on this episode. We're talking about sparkler moments. We'll also talk about letting go of fantasy selves, the best minimalist cleaning brands we didn't get to that last week. So I want to make sure we got to it this week and much more. Plus on page three, we're going to discuss the organized enough rule that can make organizing your home much easier. Let's start with our callers for 06-219-7839. If you'd like to join the show or you can just head over to our website, the minimalist.com/podcast. You can record a quick voice memo over there. Let us know if you're a Patreon subscriber so we can prioritize your message. Our first question today is from Julia. >> Hi, my name is Alyssa. This is Julia from Germany and I'm the Patreon subscriber. I already thought I'd live for a few minutes. Then I had a baby and while the baby keeps growing, away, this grandmother apartment does not. So once again, I was willing to let go of stuff. But in the process, I discovered that actually, I had to let go of some fantasy selves. There was a ambitious team lead with all the neat outfits that came with her, even though I had already climbed as high as I wanted to. There was the version of us who kept inflating a probing amateurs every single day on camping trips. Because back then, experience is met at more than comfort. Still, my husband and I kept two fantasy selves. This is an autogame we've played exactly once, but he sees the two of us someday playing it with our little boy. Mine is a packet of sparklers. I let one every New Year's Eve and law for those through-clicking seconds can hold. Endings and memories, beginnings and dreams and permanence and hope. And yet, with them comes one fantasy self, I'm not ready to retire. The version of me who gets better at celebrating smaller moments throughout the year. So, my question is, what ordinary moments would be sparkler worthy to you, moments that make a fantasy self worth keeping? Oh, and one more thing. I used to wonder, right Joshua? Or maybe my algorithm seemed to mention three spatulas so often turns out I had three. I kept one jokes on me. Congrats on getting rid of two of your spatulas. Julie, I've got to say, TK, let me just start with this. This is one of my all-time favorite questions on the show. What do you love about it? Well, her German accent first all. I just love Germans in general. You know, I had four Germans come to the New York City tour stop for the How To Let Go tour. Yeah. Two people from Poland, a couple of people from England, a few other places, Austria, Czech Republic, and even the distant country of New Jersey. A lot of people made it over the bridge to come in. But the thing I love about this question is I love this concept of sparkler moments. I want to start there, but also I want to unpack the fantasy self with you. The sparkler moment thing is interesting because what Julia is recognizing is that a small moment doesn't need a special occasion. You can have these sparklers and you can celebrate these small moments without waiting. It reminds me of the thing Rob Bell would talk about is always eat on the fine china. Every meal is a special meal. And how are we going to commemorate that? These are sparkler moments for us. And I don't have to wait until new years in order to light up the sparkler. What else do I want to celebrate? So maybe we'll start there and then I'd love to talk to you about fantasy selves as well. What do you think about the sparkler moment concept? I love that concept. So I have this deck for one question called last things. And it's kind of a relatively newer deck. And all of the questions are oriented around maybe final moments. Like what are the last words you want to be heard saying? What's the last thing you want to be saying doing? If you knew there was only one book that you could watch or that you could read before you die, what would that book be? If you're having your last conversation, what would you have it about? And the reason I like these types of questions is because when we think about things in terms of it's our last opportunity to enjoy it, we're very sober and clear about what matters to us and we give ourselves permission to just go there. Well, if it's my last, I'm going to eat this. I'm going to watch this. But when we're in the middle of life and the last moment is kind of indefinite, it could be tomorrow, but it also could be in 20 years or even longer. It's easier to procrastinate and put off the last moment and live for things that are less than what we know we would choose if it were our last moment. The person you're talking to right now probably, the person you want to have your last conversation with. Oh, don't say that for me. That's not true. Savage ease in the room right now. So great. Me too. Catch it a roll right now. Sound cut, shout out. TK. But yeah, so I love your idea because we can't always live every moment like it's our last. That's just not practical, but it's it's useful to kind of take inventory and look at the things we have and say, what's the big moment I'm waiting for for the fine China? What's the what's the big moment I'm waiting for it to just watch that movie or whatever? Maybe that moment can be now. Maybe it could be earlier. Maybe it could be more often. Maybe more occasions can be the special occasion. It makes me think about we have a lot of things that we hold on to for special occasions. And sometimes that makes sense, but as you've illustrated, you listen to Christmas music every day. And I really enjoyed you had this photographer actor on one question recently you were talking about. And he was almost a pole by that fact because he didn't hear right away that you you he was like going off on Christmas is how awful it is. And you had no reservation about saying I really love Christmas music. I listened to it every day. And people often will then think, well, that must be the only type of music that you listen to. And I would apply that to these occasional items that we that we own is which is an interesting sort of double entendre. I use these occasionally, but I they're for this occasion. And then also like, oh yeah, these are occasional items. They're for the special occasion. But the truth is that every moment is a special occasion if I have the right story assigned to it. And everything is precious if I have the wrong story assigned to it. Everything is sentimental if I have the wrong story assigned to it. Starting with the sparklers or the the game that her husband is holding on to. I don't think either one of those are a problem for a few reasons. One is buy themselves in a vacuum. A little package of sparklers doesn't take up much space. TK, you have a four and a square foot apartment. You could find a place for a packet of sparklers. And yet I think it's representative of a bigger problem. And that problem is the clinging that often happens unbeknownst to us. We don't realize how long we're clinging. It's sort of that that Arthur meme where you know he's got that fist clinched by his side. Really tight. We're doing that all the time every day with a lot of our things. Because we're saving these things for special occasions. Which is just a dressed up way of just in case. Special occasion is just in case wearing a tuxedo. It's the same thing. I'm going to hold on to this just in case. The opposite of that is just for win. Because there are some things that I have just for win. I have an umbrella even though I live in Southern California. But it does rain here in Southern California. It doesn't even always fit into my 1990 rule, the seasonality rule. But that's okay because I know that I'm going to use this sometime, some holding onto it just for win. I don't know when exactly, but I know that I'm going to use it. But then we justify holding onto all these other things just in case we might need them. And the sparklers alone are the game alone. Not the problem. The piece of jewelry, the sentimental item by itself, not a problem. I remember a lady called in to this show and she had some sort of religious memorabilia. I think it was a crucifix or something she was holding on from a grandparent during an amasset or trashot segment. And that one in Joshua Bakker was here. And you say, that's not the problem. You can hold onto that. The problem is everything else you're holding onto around that. Because if I hold onto the sparklers, what else should I hold onto? What are all of the special occasions? But the truth is that this moment right now is special. And you can find more special occasions. I'll give you an example. This episode is coming out on Patreon on TK's birthday. So light a sparkler, Julia. The birthday to me. Yes, yeah, yeah. Is there a Christmas birthday song? Or I guess one could argue all Christmas songs are birthday songs. I wasn't going to say it. And so it's finding these special moments that are here right now. And in realizing how remarkable this is, Sam Harris has this great thought experiment. You know, there will be a last time this fits into your deck idea. There'll be a last time that you hold your daughter. I have that picture of the last time that I had my daughter on my shoulders. I didn't know it was going to be the last time at the time, though. We had just moved to Ohio. And she was already long and lanky. Lenny and she was getting heavier and I had her up on my shoulders were walking down our street and I still have that that picture of us sharing that moment in that moment and it was special then but I didn't know that would be the last time I ever picked her up because I got a back injury shortly after that not related to it but and then I couldn't for a while and now she's five foot nine and she's 13 and it would just be awkward to be like me putting savvy D up on my shoulders and I guess I could but I'm not going to and and so you don't realize that you're going to get to this moment this is the last time I'm going to hug my partner this is the last time I'm going to record a podcast this is the last time I'm going to drive this car this is the last time we got out of an office space downstairs recently that we weren't using that much and so there was a last time that I walked into that office and I remember that because I I kind of paused and I treated it like oh yeah this is it this is that moment and it's time to let go oh man you're talking on my heartstrings with this especially when you bring up your daughter so I have two God daughters and they're the smallest cutest little girls and they always and they have a little brother too who's starting to be able to run around too and he's getting ready to wear me out but they always when they see me chase me come chase me you know and sometimes man I'm an old man I don't want to be chasing these kids around because they never get tired I'm going to get tired what they do yeah right but I remember my good friend Isaac when his two little girls were small they did the same thing they always wanted me to chase them I was much younger much more casual and I did but when I got tired as soon as I felt tired I just chilled out and they keep asking me for like 15 minutes and then they just get the point not it feel bad about it at all what I didn't anticipate was that those girls would quickly get to a stage where they're just like too cool for me yeah they love me but I'm they're uncle now they're just too cool for me you know and and that that moment that I had was a rare window of opportunity and so my two little goddoaters like come chase me I'm just like man all right let's go you know and I'm just gonna chase them and I'm gonna let them wear me out and that's just gonna be my workout for the day because now I have an appreciation based on my past that this isn't gonna last forever and there's gonna come a day where I'm gonna be like man I'm so grateful that I got all the hugs in I'm so grateful that I got all the games of tag in because now my role with them is different now the way we hang out is different we're sitting across from each other at a coffee shop we're taking a walk having serious conversation I'm walking into school and they tell me about their friends or their problems but like man I will always cherish and remember when we play tag and so I think that's important I just for sentimental reasons but like a lot of the things that we look at a special when we put them off and say well just for when we are betting on a future that is not promised to us and going back to the last moment the last moment is a reminder of what you really believe plus a reminder of the fact that that moment could be in your face right now and so you want to always think critically about how you can make an opportunity to experience the energy of what you really want to do even if you can't experience the fullness of its execution one more practical thing before we talk more about fantasy selves is for the sparklers the question here is when do they serve you in a way that lights you up I mean quite literally it's a sparkler you're lighting it but you know that it's a celebration or is this obligatory because that's sort of the worst as well it's New Year's Eve honey go grab the sparklers I guess will I mean the energy behind that is just dead right it doesn't feel alive but in what how could I use these sparklers or this game or whatever this occasion or special occasion item is how can I use that in a way that celebrates this moment recognizes how special this moment is how can I use these in a way where it amplifies my aliveness doesn't extinguish the fact that I am alive tk talks to you a bit about fantasy selves how do you tell which fanaties fantasy selves to let go of and which ones to explore whoo man you need some external accountability to evidence so one of the most interesting and common themes and true crime is something happens the investigators begin to look into the matter and there is almost always a very appealing theory early on as to what happened a theory which if you are right will not only allow you to open and shut this case but it'll give you directions for what your next twenty steps are and it'll give you a very predictable outcome and sometimes the theory is exceptionally beautiful right it's just coherent it works together you found a person with the motive who was in the right place everyone can imagine they did it it's it's a beautiful theory and then you find out that you're just wrong someone else's finger presses on the way on the on the weapon or that person actually clocked in is on is on camera for being at work during the time this thing happened and your theory is just wrong and what's fascinating is sometimes investigators respond to that by trying to force their theory to work well we got a little harder well just because he's on video during that time well let's retest when it actually happens to see if there was a wider range where it could have been before and sometimes they go down a long rabbit hole that leads to nowhere and the real but you know a perpetrator gets away or whatever it may be because they got attached to a theory and so there's an old saying which is kill your darlings sometimes we have ideas that are really beautiful but they're not good we get this when it comes to personal relationship you remember that poison song that girl is poison you know you just because she got a pretty face don't mean she got a pretty heart right we we have these kind of slogans just because that do look good and make you feel good don't mean he's good for you right we get that with people but that's also true of ideas there are some ideas that are sexy some ideas that are beautiful some ideas that are appealing and seductive but they're not good for you what's true of our fantasies with people can be true of our fantasies with things so we have to check in and ask ourselves what am I accountable to outside of the way this makes me feel right because you got some people in your life who can make you feel all sorts of things that make you lose your mind but you got people in your life that's like a brother cool it pull yourself together you're acting crazy right now you need the same thing for your fantasy sales and so maybe maybe early on or maybe at some stage in your life you got attached into an idea of who you would become and so you bought something or you committed to something and maybe the evidence of your life is there's just isn't working I know this is what we say but part of who I am is not just what I want but what I actually choose and I've had five years to play this game and the truth is I don't play it yeah what does the outcome I actually want from this yeah and sometimes it is I'm afraid to let it go and so I don't necessarily want an outcome but um the outcome that I want from what I'm doing right now if I'm not getting it then I need to get more specific about what that outcome is sometimes it's like well I just want to be happy that's also that's why I'm holding on to this game the game I'm either chasing pleasure or I'm running away from pain and so I'm holding on to the sparklers of the game because well I'm trying to run away from the pain of letting go or I'm trying to run toward the hypothetical pleasure from the hypothetical future in which this thing will eventually become useful through some confluence of magic where this thing is now adding value to my life even though it isn't today I think ultimately I love know your thoughts on this I think at some level every self there's a fantasy self when we think about the self you know I often talk about the false self the ego is the false self and I don't mean that as a bad thing right I just mean it is an identity so every identity is a false identity sometimes these fantasies are useful or pleasant and so I'm not against these things but I also have to recognize that just because I think I am X then you fill in the blank with that title I think I am a minimalist or I think I am a director of operations or I think I'm a yoga instructor or an astronaut these are all interesting titles they're great descriptors and they're useful labels because we use language to communicate with each other but when I get real tangled up in that identity when I get tangled up in the fantasy self that's when it ceases to be useful it's sort of the meme of you got the guy putting out all the the Christmas lights and all the sudden before you know he's tangled up in all the lights and say oh wait what happened that's kind of what we do with our identities these lights are beautiful and useful if I use them appropriately but if I'm not careful I can get tangled up really quickly yeah and it's and it's trickier than just people waking up in the morning and choosing to be irrational sometimes these ideas create attachment because they're incredibly useful to us at a prior stage they're they're necessary part of us getting to where we are or surviving let's say you grow up in an environment where your parents just don't really love you and and and people just don't support you no one is there for you and and maybe the thing that keeps you from going mad is this perspective that says, you know, nobody's ever going to look out for me. Nobody cares about me. If I were to drop dead right now, nobody would give a damn is just about what I do for myself. Maybe that belief actually keeps you alive and drives you to the heights of success and causes you to treat other people with respect, causes you to lower your expectations of others in this way that keeps you from ever being bitter and you're just really productive and you're an amazing citizen. But then you might get to a stage in life where maybe you have a kid or you have a team around you or you got people that look up to you or you've got a family and that attitude of is just about me. Nobody wants to help me. I got to look out for myself. You may have to sacrifice that to evolve and go forward in your future because it may be good for your family and the people around you for you to say, even though I'm used to doing everything by myself, it's important for me to build community by asking you all to come build with me by including you all in the process. And maybe that's hard for me and I got to redefine myself, right? Yes. And it doesn't mean that that old way was right or wrong. It might have been that's just the best way you knew how to get through. And in a similar way, sometimes our fantasy selves are responsible for moving us across the country when we wouldn't have otherwise had the courage or for asking that person out for dinner or asking for a race. Sometimes the fantasy self compels you to do great things. But when you began to run into a wall, at some point, you got to ask yourself, is my clinging to this fantasy self the thing that's stopping me from going forward? And if it is, you got to be willing to let it go. And if you don't, you're going to get dragged by it. And I would say the same thing for all of these special occasion items. I don't have to wait for a special occasion to use the special occasion item because all the occasions are special if you have the right story assigned to the occasion. You'll, I love to send you a copy of everything that remains. It's the book that Ryan and I wrote. It was really about identity clutter and letting go of some fantasy selves from the corporate world. And the first line of that book is our identities are shaped by the costumes we wear. And sometimes that's literal. And in the sense that was wearing a corporate suit every day and the shoes and all of the other accoutrements, the cars and the watch and the whatever else I was I had on my person. But also what are the other costumes? Is it about my home? Is it about the demeanor that I have the way that I approach the world? That's a sort of costume where maybe these sparklers are part of your costume as well. So I'd love to send you a copy of everything that remains. And speaking of sparkler moments, happy birthday, TK Coleman. Here comes Santa Claus. Here comes Santa Claus tonight. It's going to be Christmas all day for my birthday. My wife's been asking me, what do you want to do for your birthday? I think I want to listen to Christmas music and watch Christmas movies and have a little hot cocoa. Yes. Sounds like an ideal birthday. All right. Before we get back to our colors, TK, let's fantasize about the question of the week. This week, the question of the week is, what's a fantasy self you've had to let go of? We reached out to our Patreon community chat. And here's some folks had to say Karen said, I had to let go of a fantasy self who already eats perfectly. There's no fun in that. 80% is much better for me. TKY is perfect, the enemy of progress. Because it's very easy to be aware of how imperfect you already are. And so if perfection is the standard, then it's incredibly difficult to get standard, to get started. And it also makes it easy for you to get discouraged. Because if you're consistent and you do really well for a month, two months, six months, six years, guess what? You're never perfect. And so you feel like someone that's on a road trip. And all you know is that no matter how many hours or miles you've driven, you're still not there. And when you're fundamental filling is, I'm still not there yet. You get discouraged when I give up. Yeah, that's not the disposition I want to show up with, where it's, I go to the gym and I'm still not there. The point of the gym isn't to get there. Right? It's the process of getting there. It's walking toward the horizon, knowing there will always be a new horizon. Natasha said, I had to let go of the fantasy self of what growing older would look like. I envisioned Sunday dinners with my children and grandchildren, babysitting my grandkids and weekend sleepovers. I envisioned our spur of the moment shopping trips with my girls and weekend adventures with everyone. Both of my daughters moved nine hours away. And I see them five to six times a year. I guess I did too good of a job encouraging my kids to find their happiness, their happy and unhappy for them. TK, it seems that specificity can turn these dreams into a sort of expectation that we just have to meet. That's right. A fantasy isn't inherently good or evil. It's just an imagined outcome. But it's our relationship to it that can make it healthy or unhealthy. And sometimes the fantasies we have about our own future or about our walk with others can become a basis for loving ourselves and others a little less when we turn out to be different from our fantasies. And so can we still love ourselves when we don't become all that we thought we would be ten years ago? Can we still love our children and the people in our lives when they don't turn out to live up to whatever imagined ideal we had for them? Yeah. And Natasha's showing that yeah, she had to let go of the expectation that she had inadvertently created. I had this dream scenario, this fantasy self, the growing older would look like X, but it actually looks like Y. And sometimes you know what? That Y is more beautiful. And even if it's not, maybe it's just what you need it, or it's what your kids need it, what the other people need it. And so setting down that expectation was obviously important for her. By the way, God help me if I don't look like Frederick Douglass when I get older because that's my fantasy self. And I'm convinced it's going to happen. I'm going to go in a hair out like that. I'm going to have to do a lot of letting go. All right. So, okay. You got to do some Photoshopping here. Let's get the Fetter Declas hairdo going. He was kind of like Einstein in a way that hair was wild. Yes. How about you, Lister? What's a fantasy self you've had to let go of? Let us know your thoughts in the comments. All right. I got my minimal maximum ready. You can find this episode's maxims and the show notes over at the Minimists.com. And every minimal maximum ever at minimal maxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox every Monday. If you sign up for our free email newsletter at the Minimists.com, whenever send you spam or junk or ads or noise or any of that garbage, but we will start your week off with a dose of simplicity. Okay. Give me something pithy TK. What's a fantasy self? You've had to let go of fantasies are fatal when left unfollow. That's my maximum. And I'll give like a little dichotomy for how to have a good relationship to your fantasies. That's follow or forsake. You know, there's a proverb that says hope deferred makes the heart sick. You mentioned the gospel of St. Thomas earlier. We're talking about like, Gnostic texts and so on. And there's a passage in there about how if you let what is within you out into the world, it will give you life. But if you contain or suppress or hold on to what is within you, it will destroy you. Our psyche is simply not designed to just carry dreams and fantasies that are never acted on. It's either going to destroy us from within or it's going to give us life when we let it out. And so when you have a fantasy self, you've got to ask yourself, well, is this inspiring me? And if it is, how can I act on it, even if in some small way? And if it's killing me, well, then how can I let this go, even if in some small way? Or how can I reframe it so that I can make it easier to follow? I think for me, the fantasy self that I had to let go of was, this is hilarious, but it's the idea that I would be so much more rich and successful and further along in my life than that I actually am, according to the metrics I employed when I was like seven, you know, when I was seven, I thought I would be surely an imbi Hall of Famer by this age, definitely a multi-millionaire by this age, owning like 10 businesses, having one to academy awards. So many things. And nobody told me like, hey, don't imagine such things, you know what I mean? But nor would you want to say that to a kid. Right. But hey, man, I grew up watching Michael Jordan, it's like, I guess that's what I'm going to do. And there came a point where as I'm getting older, and I go, wait a minute, I'm not doing any of the things that I thought I would be doing when I was a kid. Am I a failure? But then I go, well, wait a minute. Do I like who I am? Yeah. Do I like the people in my life? Yeah, my friends are pretty awesome. Do I like where I'm at? Yeah, do I like my possibilities? Yeah. Okay, maybe it's time to let that go. Really quickly, I have a friend who came out to LA to be an actor. And she said, I'm going to give it five years. Got to five years, felt like she was getting some momentum. It says, I'll give it a few more years. And after 10, she says, I'm, I'm going to let it go. And there were so many people that were like, well, you can't, that's selling out. Don't give in. Like keep fighting. And she didn't have to let go of her decision because she made her piece with how much time she give herself and she was cool with it. But she had to let go of that attachment to other actors and other theater people looking at her like she failed and she had to decide, I don't need to be a winner according to their concept of success. I know what my line is, I drew it and I'm content to live it. I think that ties in perfectly to my maximum, which is a practical one and it's about clutter, but I think it applies to the identity side of things more than anything else. And that minimal maximum is clutter is an audition for a life you don't want. And so imagine if I came out here and saw all these other actors and I tried to, I don't, people think I'm an actor all the time because they see, they've seen me somewhere and they can't really play. So they'll be like, hey, I love your movies or I love like, or like, I saw you or TV show or whatever, and they, they see in a crystal walk in movie or two and so they, if I had to fall, it's essentially following someone else's fantasy at some point and clutter is a type of fantasy meaning I thought this would serve me in some way and holding on to it is sort of auditioning for the life that I don't want because I'm going to hold on to this in case I do want that fantasy life that I know I don't want now, but by letting it go, let any of the access go. I'm also letting go of the life I don't want anymore. I'm letting go of the future baggage in advance. Okay, we still have an entire switchboard of callers to talk to, but first real quick for our right here right now segment. Here's one thing that's going on in the life of the minimalists. Like announcement, the minimalist present, the how to let go toward 2027 come spend an evening with me. I'm bringing my honest, raw, funny and often sad solo minimalism show to 11 new cities in 2027. Yes, after three very successful test shows in Seattle and Vancouver and New York City, shout out to everyone who filled up those venues, by the way, the how to let go tour is expanding to 15 cities total. I'm ending this year, 2026 in Los Angeles on December 11th. Tickets just went on sale for that event and they are almost sold out. Then tickets go on sale for 11 new cities on 11 11. Isn't that perfect? Okay. 11 cities on 11 11. I'm coming to Los Angeles, Austin, Texas, Phoenix, Denver, Washington, DC, Chicago, Toronto, Boston, San Francisco, Minneapolis, Atlanta, and then finishing the tour in beautiful Orange County, California. I'm sure I'll be able to drag TK out to a few of these events as well as well as Ryan Nicodemus. He said he would love to attend a few of these with me, but it's my first ever solo show. Tickets go on sale to the public this Friday, November 13th, but our audience gets early access to the best seats starting this Wednesday, November 11th, just use promo code simple at checkout. You can join me for a night of letting go. It's going to be an evening filled with a ton of heartfelt stories that I've never told in public, stories about my own failures, my own losses, and how I was able to let go even when I wasn't ready. You can grab your tickets now at the minimalists.com/tour and you can find that link down in the description, use pre-sale code simple at checkout to get your tickets early. If you live in one of these cities, hit the comments and let me know your favorite restaurant, coffee shop, and museums so I can check them out when I'm in town. I'm always looking for recommendations. If I missed your city, then hit the comments and let me know what city you'd like me to visit next. Before we get on the page two, how about we do what would Josh own question? Let's do it. What's up, y'all? This is Brandon from Michigan. I'm wondering what you guys use to clean your dishes. I'm talking washed soap, gave you steel wool or a sponge or something else. Give me all the details. I feel like this scrub daddy is just not cutting it. I appreciate you guys. TK is the scrub daddy the kinkyest cleaning tool that you own. I am the scrub daddy. I should have gotten you one for your birthday and just pull a candle at it. Here you go, scrub daddy. Here's the thing. I'll talk about this what I use. I've talked about, I think I've mentioned public goods on this show before. I use public goods, dish soap, and sponges. I have no affiliation with this company, although I'd certainly consider it because I really like their ethos. This is from their website, our philosophy is simple. If it isn't good for you, we don't make it. I appreciate that simple and clean philosophy around. I don't want a bunch of toxic nonsense in there, but also, at some point, if I'm going to buy products from some brand, I have to be able to trust them to some extent. I'm outsourcing my autonomy because I'm not making my own cleaning products at home. Although I have a few friends who do that and I admire it, but I've chosen to take the shortcut and find a brand that works for me. Now, this is an interesting appendix to a conversation we had a few episodes ago where I had a mea culpa and I said, "Oh, you know, this is a brand that I've, of t-shirts that I've used, I don't use anymore." But now imagine TK if we pulled that forward into this and all of a sudden I use public goods in their grave. What if we found out that their founder is a bad guy and he's caught up in some sort of scandal? I'll tell you a quick little story when Michelle and I lived in Charleston. There was this pizza place not far from us. And she can't eat it, mini pizza. Colorsis. Pizzah. Oh, no. Where this is going? No. Stop it. You're going to take us somewhere where we're going to need another episode to explain your jokes on this one. So, this was a place that had a great gluten-free pizza and vegan and everything. And so we would eat there whenever we wanted pizza. And there was one time we ate there and we were like, "Man, this pizza is just not good today." And so I went to the next time and I said, "Hey, did you guys change something with the gluten-free crust?" And the person working there says, "Why? Something wrong?" He says, "Well, we just don't like it anymore. It tastes kind of weird last time." And she went and asked, and she says, "It turns out we did. They get the gluten-free crust from a different company." And we're like, "Oh, okay, well, it's too bad. We really like the old one better." But life a choice. We never ate there again. And we didn't even have a conversation like, "You know we're never going to eat there again, right?" It's just, "We just never ate there again." Yes. And I set my piece to them, but I didn't go, "I'm never going to eat here again. We just never ate there again. Why?" Because the pizza wasn't good anymore. So my question would be, "Hey, what if the soap isn't good anymore?" Right? It's good to you today, at least because perception is reality with this kind of stuff. What if you find out in two weeks that the soap isn't good anymore? Now the soap is bad. Well, you probably just stop using it and you probably won't have a conversation about it unless there's somebody, unless you told like a million people, like, "Hey, everybody ought to go to public goods and get this particular brand of soap." Then you might come back and be like, "Hey, remember how I told you guys to get this soap?" I don't think it's good anymore, but you guys do you. But that's kind of my take on it. Yeah, I think I feel the same way. And I always treat this segment as not a recommendation. Someone asking, "What do I use? What do I own? What do I have? What do I find value in?" Because they trust me enough to say, "I need some sort of shortcut here." So I'm not trying every single thing out myself. Stephanie and I were just talking about this this morning, he's looking for new black t-shirts himself and he's trying all of these different brands. The thing I'll say ultimately is it probably doesn't matter that much. No one can really tell. I'm wearing a different brand t-shirt right now and he didn't even know that I was wearing a different brand t-shirt. My wife doesn't know it. And so I think the thing that's interesting here is people are really asking, "What do you get?" Because I know you've put some attention and effort and thought into this. And so I'm always looking for questions on this front because there are some things I don't put a lot of attention or effort or thought into because I can't with everything. There are 500,000 discrete bits of information I'm taking in every day. I can't possibly give them all my attention. But this is one area that I have given my attention. But I will say this, I'm not really hung up on the brand. I'm pretty brand agnostic here. This is a brand that works well for me. But House of Don't Freak Out If I Run Out Of Something and I don't have time to go order it from public goods. I can go to my local store in Ohio and just get whatever the cleanest brand there is. And it's fine. I try not to get really tied up in a brand. I especially try to avoid brand loyalty. I will say one thing for you, and I assume you probably already know this, but with a segment like this and with the people who follow you, I think one reason why people will be interested in asking what kind of soap to use, because this is not a question we go around asking everybody. I'm probably never going to get that question. But people know that you're very meticulous, very attentive to detail, very conscientious about what you choose to consume. You are one of the most cautious consumers I know. And you're not going to waste your time on excess. And you're not going to violate your conscience on any choice that you make people see that in you and they respect that about you. Now that doesn't mean you're not going to make any mistakes. That doesn't mean you can't be fooled or take advantage of. That doesn't mean the world can't change on you in ways that are unfair to the influence you have on the world. Because how many people out there are like, yeah, I worked with that guy for 20 years. I had no idea. He was a piece of shit. You know, whoa is me. It's a thing that happens. So yeah, none of us are exempt from that. But people respect you as someone that's conscientious and in good faith. And I think a lot of times people are very passionate about being good to the environment of being responsible, being mindful. And so you represent a kind of shortcut where people say, hey, what kind of soap do you use? And then they can be able to have some confidence that you've probably looked into it for them. And even though there could be a surprising red flag that comes out in three months or something, it's probably a safe bet. Yeah. When I was just on stage in New York City, really enjoyed that event. By the way, it was at the city winery there in Chelsea and overlooked the water. And I'm on stage. And at the end, I'm doing a little Q&A with a few folks. And one lady comes up to the the mic. She goes, I just want to know where did you get your shoes from? And so like, we did an impromptu mortgage on segment right there. And the shoes I had on at the time I've had for a long time, I'm like, this is not a sexy answer. I got them from eBay. Like, they were used shoes that I bought from eBay. Thank God, you were like, these were the shoes, you know, shoes that old Jan, the black guy, thank God, you didn't do that. And so I'm grateful to be in this position where like people respect my opinion enough, they really respect the process that you talked about, the intentionality behind it. But you're right. Sometimes I make a mistake on something I consume or the world changes. And I have to be willing to change that. And the easiest way to do that is not to stay too loyal to a particular brand way back in the days to where banana republic t-shirts, they were great. And then they changed how they were manufactured. And they went from being awesome, outstanding, amazing, like your pizza store and all of a sudden, I never wore another one ever again. And they could be great again for all I know, but I haven't given them another shot. How about you listeners, what minimalist solution do you use to clean your home? You can let us know your thoughts in the comments or better yet. Just visit the minimalist.com/podcast and record a quick message so we can feature your voice on a future episode of next page two and page three. But first, let's take a quick pandeculation break. We'll be right back. All right, y'all, that's the first like 29% of episode 5.62. We'll see you on Patreon for the full two-hour maximal edition, which includes answers to a bunch more questions. Like, what if you regret letting something go? How do you distinguish the technology you need from the technology you've simply become accustomed to using? And what does real humility look like? Plus a million more questions and simple living segments over on the minimalist private podcast on Patreon. The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private episodes on Apple podcasts or YouTube music or Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts. Plus, you can access to all of our archives all the way back to the very first episode. And that is our minimal episode for today. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, T.K. Coleman, Audio Bin, Spire Jeff and Dave, Tom Katz, Avey D on the couch. Actually, he's on the board today. Tom Katz on the couch today. And the rest of our team, I'm Joshua Fields-Millburn. If you leave here today with just one message, let it be this. Love people and use things. Because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Peace. ♪ Every little thing is thing that you need ♪ ♪ Every little thing that's just feeding your greed ♪ ♪ Oh, I bet that you'll be fine without it ♪