557 - Be Different Later

this is exactly right everyone loves the idea of spending an afternoon curled up with a good book well grow up because it's almost impossible luckily you can take your next great story with you on audible audible has a massive selection of titles to choose from including this american life new books by michael connelly along with classics from agatha christie and so much more whether you want a mystery a true crime story or something completely different there's always something new to listen to new members can start listening with a 30-day free trial at audible.com slash mfm audible stories that speak to you goodbye you know a favorite m word magnesium like the kind that's in dr teal's magnesium spray made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals it's designed to relax and prepare you for a night of rest if you need a reset after your day make dr teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine generously spritz each foot before bed and you'll be all set you actually started doing this and i'm obsessed with magnesium it does everything something like this is just like it's simple it's easy and it actually works totally for wellness you can feel find dr teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle goodbye have and welcome to my favorite murder that's georgia hartstark that's karen kilgariff we're at home we are at home i'm legit am i i don't know if i call them pajamas are they pajamas when they're sweatpants are they pajamas when they're all day long exactly i mean like vince got them in my pajamas and i'm like i'm kind of in my indoor clothes which isn't i don't sleep could you go to the bank in what you're wearing right now oh that's a good question is that the dividing line but i'd look a little someone wouldn't be wrong to think that i was on my way to rehab getting some money out before i go to rehab it's like a speakeasy in the back of the bank but it's a rehab what's the code word to get in you know what that makes me think of is the time i was sitting in the like in front of a grocery store at night this was so long ago but a girl walked up to one of those red box machines and she had the most insane like fleece pajama bottoms with like i think they were like probably powerpuff girls or something yeah yeah and this was pre-covid and i remember being like oh what do you do and then like something someone got broke up with recently yeah yeah a lot of judgment a lot of like outfits outfits and now it's like absolutely wear that to work totally do your thing like what do you wear when you don't leave the house that often god i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i need to leave the house more i think it's why and maybe you want to join me uh that's why i do scandi my style is scandi scandi style oh like scandinavian what is that yeah scandinavian so it's like big sweaters big pants clogs that's like your style so that when you're at home it's like that's just what she wears i thought you were gonna go like scandalous and be like i wear lingerie around my house i tip top it around the house non-stop all right you're right and then because also i i need an escape because my clothes are like you know when they're cute they're like made up and everything is cinched and this and that and has accessories tight yeah so like i need a break from that when i'm not wearing them i shouldn't need a break from my everyday clothes anymore all right listen i think you're growing and changing in the way that you're like do i need to be outfit forward at all times right no right you don't owe anybody an outfit yeah you'll gift them an outfit i owe nine-year-old georgia who bought hand-me-downs and wore the same and got teased for wearing the same thing every week you know i owe her a new top for the netflix podcast that we do every week i hear you you know what you're like i can now prove that i can get new shirts exactly watch you've never seen this one before and you'll never fucking see it again check this one out maureen from orange county or whoever we're talking to motherfucker and i think i'm doing the equal opposite of the full flop of just wear a black shirt all the time they can't say shit to you if you just wear the same thing all the time well starting tomorrow it's on yeah we're gonna be different later yeah watch out world yeah you've been warned do you have anything what do you got we went on a lovely vacation that i was very grateful to have and when i came back from that vacation i literally slept for about six days in a row it started to get kind of like do i have weird sleeping sicknesses or something because i could not stop sleeping it was wild it's so joyful though sleeping yeah it is you know especially when you have a hard time doing it yeah there's something so special about oh i fell asleep it's like yay i won it's so good for you it's so good for you and it never happens when it's supposed to it doesn't and i'm also not used to daytime napping right in fact i think in our house kind of subtextually it was bad but i'm not used to banned yes like you're laying down during the day it's totally a childhood thing of was it okay or was it not okay like it was totally fine in my house and celebrated it's it's so yeah it's so bad so if it wasn't that's healthy yeah no it was bad you had to people would just come by and hit your foot and just be like get a job but point being coming home i would be falling asleep at four o'clock in the afternoon and sleeping hard and then i would wake up at six and because it dawned and that i'd slept through the day and i would get i did this two times i got up and made coffee two times at like six i was thinking if you was a little kid and i'm like you got up and made coffee cool no no this just happened this is how i this is how i celebrated my vacation oh my god you woke up and we're like well it's the morning time i blew through that whole day i guess i need to get jacked up on caffeine and then it'd be like oh shit i should have looked at my phone daisy and frank are like what the fuck are you doing what are we doing blossom by the way blossom shit shit oh my god daisy whose dog is daisy blossom daisy it's they're similar true true all right should we get into it let's do it we have a podcast network called exactly right media here's highlights that's right all kinds of podcasts on there and this week over on buried bones kate winkler dawson and paul holes kick off a two-part investigation into the hillside stranglers as we all know the serial killing duo who terrorized los angeles in the late 1970s i cannot wait to hear them break down and discuss i mean i i genuinely can't wait this is like this is what they call appointment tv but this is like appointment podcasting for me definitely and then over on brief recess michael and melissa talk about the midterm elections and they discuss the surge in partnerships between ice and local police dark yeah god is watching you i've never been more religious over on ghosted roz is joined by the iconic stephanie beatrice she's a friend of mfm she's from brooklyn 99 and the amazing movie encanto if you haven't seen encanto do yourself a favor it's so beautiful and she's the star she can sing like hell i know it's incredible on ghosted they get into ghostly visitations a very haunted dorm room and a cursed rendezvous plus in case you missed it karen was a guest on the knife last month hey she sat down with hannah and patia to reflect on the tragedy she witnessed at south by southwest in 2014 and what it means to carry the memory of something so devastating you know what it means it means that you somehow in the strangest way in the world make a friend at a halloween party turn it into a podcast that's our what is that called a prequel or a like yeah that's the season before the main season right because that's the thing that got us to actually meet each other totally also here's some really exciting news over in the merch corner heads up goths and rebellious librarians we've got a brand new murderino design it's the classic cursive text but it's black on black fabric hell yeah that's so fucking punk rock i love it so much so good it's available as a hat plus our fan favorite panther design by daphne sabane is available once again as a zip-up hoodie and a crew neck also for our mfm animated stands we have a fan favorite panther design by daphne sabane do people still use that word we have new ornaments for the holidays choose from a peachy ornament or from the mfm animated lineup plus we've got new mothman and skeleton key purse charms all designed by our own nick terry hell yeah i love that we're just leaning on that mfm animated because it's just so beautiful and now we can add it to christmas yeah come on the lineup art is truly some of my favorite so head to exactly right store.com to shop the whole thing collection okay karen you're first i'm gonna put my pajama ass into a comfy position it would be great if you would change into formal clothes for this since you're already in pajamas let me go put on my gown and jewels thank you i i appreciate it okay my story today starts the morning of friday april 2nd 1982 in the dc suburb of montclair virginia that's about 30 miles southwest of washington dc it's around 10 o'clock in the morning and a woman walking her dog through a local subdivision takes a short trail into the woods behind a nearby elementary school. And on that path, she comes upon what we know to be the worst-case scenario. She finds the dead body of a woman. She's somewhere between 30 and 40 years old. She's 5'2", with reddish-brown hair. She's nude, and her hands are bound behind her back. The woman who's walking her dog immediately calls the police. But this homicide investigation will be slow and frustrating. The police wait for the call from a loved one reporting her missing, but they don't get that call. And when every possible lead results in a dead end, investigators are forced to think outside the box, trying new things like forensic hypnosis to get a break. But in the end, it will be the TV show Unsolved Mysteries that breaks this case, finally bringing justice where it's needed. This is the story of the murder of Hilda Roche. Wow. So the main source. The main source is used, of course, the 1991 episode of Unsolved Mysteries, which now sounds like I'm saying 1941. Wow, yeah. It's so crazy. God. And then articles from the Potomac News and the Washington Post archives, and the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So it's April 2nd, 1982, and a Jane Doe body is found in the woods in Montclair. In those woods behind a grammar school, crime scene investigators get to work. They notice that. The victim's hands are tied behind her back with a pair of pantyhose. And then they notice signs of sexual assault. They see that her cause of death is one execution-style gunshot to the head. Investigators determine that she was killed sometime after midnight, likely in this exact spot. What they can't figure out, though, is who this woman is. Because, of course, she doesn't have any identification on her. But when they run her fingerprints through the FBI database, there's no match because it's 1982 and she doesn't have a criminal record. Right. Aside from her white and blue tree-torn tennis shoes, the police really don't have anything, any identifying things like clothing, jewelry, tattoos, that could help the public identify her. Throughout the day, investigators keep close tabs on any missing person reports that might be coming in, but no luck there. And since we all know that the first 48 hours of a murder investigation, our make or break, they send nine detectives out to canvass the area around where the body was found. They interview dozens of people who live near the crime scene. And they do learn that a few residents heard a loud noise in the overnight hours, which would be very early Friday morning, presumably the gunshot that killed this Jane Doe. And that when they say they heard it aligns with the assumed time of the victim's death. They also learn that the outside of the crime scene, elementary school was hosting an adult jazzercise class that night, the night before on Thursday. So they tracked down every person that was in this class, but no one's unaccounted for. And none of the people who were in the class have useful information about who that woman, the dead woman could be. But by the weekend, there's coverage about this Jane Doe murder on the local news and in area newspapers. And finally, calls start coming in. The tip is from Lake Ridge, Virginia. It's another D.C. suburb 10 miles north of Montclair. And the callers are worried about a neighbor of theirs, a 43-year-old woman named Hilda Roche. They describe her as a friendly and outgoing woman who they're used to seeing around the neighborhood. It turns out Hilda is an active member of her neighborhood association. She also enjoys going out to dinner, going to see live theater. She's described as a joyful person. And she had recently separated from her husband, and for a time she lived with a roommate. But then just a few months earlier in January of 1982, her roommate died suddenly from a brain aneurysm. Which was, yeah, just a shocking, out-of-the-blue thing. So now Hilda lives by herself in her townhome. So her neighbors report they haven't seen her since Thursday, April 1st, and that no one has been able to reach her. They're particularly troubled because Hilda's dog was found out there. She was outside and unattended. Yeah, horrible feeling. When they went to check her front door, they discovered that it was unlocked. So around the same time that they're talking to these neighbors, Hilda's co-workers also reach out to the police. Like many people that live in that part of the country, Hilda's a government employee. She works for military intelligence at Arlington Hall in Arlington, Virginia, which is known for hosting and training cryptographers and codebreakers during World War II. And Hilda had been annoyed, and no show at work for a couple of days. And no one at work could get in touch with her. And all of that was so out of character for Hilda that they finally called the police. So on Monday, April 5th, 1982, four days after the Jane Doe body is found, investigators knock on the door of Hilda Roche's townhome. No one answers. So they enter through that unlocked door, and they start to look around. And a detective named Donald Cahill describes the scene as, quote, indicative of a struggle. The upstairs bedroom, in particular, is in disarray. Women's clothes are strewn around the room. Many of them are damaged, like they were ripped from a body. There's a torn pair of underwear, a bra with a broken clasp, a blouse that's missing nine buttons. And all of those items do end up belonging to Hilda. There's also a roll of tape sitting near the bedside. And investigators believe that this was used to tie someone up. Downstairs in the living area, investigators find the blouse's missing buttons. And that makes them think that that's where the struggle began, with Hilda's shirt being torn off. They also find her wallet and her work ID with her fingerprint on it. And investigators are now able to confirm that Hilda Roche is the Montclair Jane Doe. Wow. But because there's no evidence that the home was broken into, investigators suspect that Hilda might have been killed by someone she knew and maybe even someone she invited inside. So they take a closer look at her estranged husband, of course, as they always do. But by all accounts, the two seem to have broken up and moved on with their lives. They can find no evidence that connects her ex to this murder. And then they get a very promising tip. Investigators discover that on the evening of March 26th, 1982, which was a week before her death, she went to a bar and restaurant called The Rafters in Alexandria, Virginia, which is about a half an hour from her home. And there she met a man. So it's the early 80s, and apparently Rafters is like a popular kind of slightly upscale chain for food and drinks in Alexandria. Kind of like. Applebee's? Which one's the fancy? Black Angus. Black Angus was what I was going to say. But that's not even fancy anymore, is it? I don't know. I don't know. One of those. It seemed fancy from the beginning. It seemed fancy from the freeway to me. Yeah, yeah. But it's also the 80s. And so like on that episode of Unsolved Mysteries, they do reference this as a singles bar, The Rafters. But Maren looking into it was like, I'm not seeing anybody else calling it that. So like it. But it's that idea. It's like she basically went there, she ordered a drink at the bar, sat down, and she would later tell her friends that a man took the seat next to her and they start chatting. Yeah. But for. For some reason that no one will ever know, she doesn't tell her friends the man's name. She only tells them that he introduces himself as a government consultant and they hit it off. So Hilda tells her friends, she and this man grab a table and they eat dinner together and then they walk over to the man's place at the Oakwood Apartments, which is a huge complex, basically across the street from The Rafters. You can see it from The Rafters. And they go over there and they keep talking about it. So by the time Hilda's telling her friends about this, she's clearly excited. And one of her friends, who will later appear on Unsolved Mysteries, says that she thought this man sounded too good to be true. She says, quote, Hilda had said the guy was single, he was attractive, he had a lot of money, and she was impressed that he was driving this beautiful car. I started to tell her, don't believe everything this guy is telling you. The car's probably rented. Anybody can make up a big story. You don't know anything about him. Watch out. Wow. End quote. Yeah. But it's like such a heartbreaking thing. This is the risk of vulnerability of relationships. It's like. This is what women have to deal with. You have to be constantly on guard that everything they say could be a complete lie and they could be dangerous, like on top of it all. Right. And this, I think, only recent kind of discovery and it's like, and discussion that women are having with each other about what actual danger looks like and how charming sociopaths can be. You know, how that's part of the plan. It's, you know, it's tough. It feels like 1982 is like, that was still almost like a hangover of like the singles bar, fern bar 70s, you know? Yeah, for sure. The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home. Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know, your home is protected while you're away. That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe. Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it. Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit SimpliSafe.com slash MFM. That's SimpliSafe.com slash MFM. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time. Goodbye. You know a favorite? M word? Magnesium. Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's Magnesium Spray. Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea salt, it's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest. If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's Magnesium Spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can help you relax your body and mind before bedtime. Dr. Teal's Magnesium Spray comes in a lightweight, fast-drying formula. Just shake it up. And generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed. I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just spray it on your feet and suddenly you're asleep and the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy. And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want? How dare you call my feet stinky? For wellness you can feel, find Dr. Teal's Magnesium Spray online or in your local bath aisle. Goodbye. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Turning something you love into a career is exciting. Then come the invoices. Lucky for you, Squarespace can handle the business stuff so you can focus on your business. From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your skills with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. With Squarespace's collection of cutting-edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful professional online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Get paid on time with professional invoices and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Head to squarespace.com slash murder for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code murder to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye. So identifying this man becomes the focus of the murder investigation. The police talk to the people who are at the rafters that night. They get this man's physical description. It's very vague. He's a white man with brown hair and brown eyes. He's around 40 years old. He's about five foot seven. It's like as general as it could be. But they do use it to investigate their most compelling clue, which is they know this man has an apartment at the Oakwoods complex across the street. But here's the thing. This complex has 1,400 units in it. Holy shit. Yeah. It's gigantic. I mean, I can't comprehend it. That's so gigantic. No, it makes sense with like government workers where it's just like, we need a place to temporarily put a lot of people. Exactly. That is kind of what it was. So detectives end up pouring over as many lease agreements, like lease agreements dating back three years. Wow. Hoping to find a tenant that is a man, like a white man, all those things in the description. But of course, it's a huge complex and it is a revolving door of government employees. So it's like, you know, contract employees that are in and out. So it's now months into the investigation when police finally get the big break they need. They find out that Hilda lost her wallet at the rafters the night that she met this mystery man. So it turns out that the man that she left with, he called the rafters and insisted that he be called if her wallet is found. Okay. So then he leaves his phone number with the staff. And it sounds really creepy and it's very easy to kind of write a story about what that meant. Yeah. He does live across the street and Hilda is far away and she's excited to see him again. So it could have made sense to be like, oh, we'll meet again and you can bring my wallet. Yeah. I can grab it. It's close by kind of a thing. Yeah. Okay. So Hilda's wallet is found at the restaurant and a manager gives the man a call. So he stops by that same week. And picks it up. So when the detectives learn about this, they go back to the rafters. They find that manager to get the man's contact information, but like hoping it's filed away somewhere. But of course she doesn't have it anymore. So basically as an investigative Hail Mary, they asked the manager if she'll be willing to be put under hypnosis in the hope that they could get something from anything to point to this man's identity. And she agrees. But by the time she's placed under hypnosis, it's been three months since she called the man about Hilda's wallet. So it definitely seems like a long shot and it seems just weird and out of the box. But incredibly when she's hypnotized, this manager recites a complete phone number. No. Yeah. Holy shit. I know. It's crazy. Now investigators don't immediately celebrate because the hypnotist warned them, listen, these numbers could be off in some way. Some could be reversed, or misremembered, like it could be partial. But while this is happening, the other investigators are whittling down those lease agreements. And Detective Cahill says on his episode of Unsolved Mysteries, he says, quote, we went through probably 25,000 to 30,000 files. And out of that, we came up with 32 possible names that fit the profile of the man, end quote. That's so much work for also not even knowing if he is a suspect. Because it was a week before, right? Yes. It's a part of like police work and detective work where you understand the burnout and me, when people kind of like half-ass things, or they don't want to write up a report or a file or whatever, because they have to do all of that and work so hard. And yeah, sometimes for no reason. Yeah. And it's like, why can't we get AI to do something? Why does AI have to be an artist all the time? Anyway, we'll talk about AI on a different show. I hope so. Uh, you're looking forward to that conversation. Yeah, always. So they do have, uh, these 32 possible names. And on this short list, they find a phone number that is an almost perfect match to the one recited by the hypnotized restaurant manager. And that phone number belongs to a 38-year-old man named Gregory Richard Barker, who it turns out moved out of the Oakwood apartments and left town shortly after Hilda's murder. Oh, shit. So now detectives are on it, and they are looking to interview him, but they can't find him. He leaves behind a forwarding address for a new place in Las Vegas. But when they call and talk to people at that address, he no longer is affiliated or seems to be affiliated with it. So police start to dig into this man's background. There's no immediate red flags. He's a decorated Vietnam War veteran. He completed two tours, the second one being in the U.S. and the second one being in the U.S. and the third one being in the U.S. and the third one being in the military intelligence, which is something he and Hilda could have bonded over, um, because that's where she worked now. Barker left the army in 1975, seven years before this murder took place, and he left it in good standing. But when investigators track down Barker's car, that fancy one that impressed Hilda so much the night they met, they find a shoe print in the trunk that is a perfect match for those white tree-torn sneakers that she was wearing at the time of her death. Oh, my God. Yeah. So it's a direct link, and it also suggests she may have been in the trunk alive. Right. Totally. So two and a half years after Hilda Roche's body is found in September of 1984, Greg Barker is arrested, but he's not arrested for Hilda's murder. He's actually arrested for three bank robberies in Las Vegas, one in December of 83, one in January of 84, and a third in March of 84. But these. These aren't, like, major heists. He only made $2,100. Wow. On three bank robberies. Three bank robberies in the 80s. Do you want to know how much it is in today's money? $2,100 in the 80s today is, um, $10,000? No, $8,000. $6,700. It's like, it's, it's nothing. And in the robberies, he didn't use a weapon. So one could maybe assume that he was just desperate. And was, like, trying to get money, like, truly on the run. Yeah. But because he didn't use a weapon, he is able to post bond, and he is released before his trial. And also, because of bad communication between different police jurisdictions, the Las Vegas authorities have no idea Greg Barker is wanted for murder in Virginia. By the time detectives who are working Hilda's case find out about his arrest in Vegas, he's gone again. So now. Now it's April of 1991, it's nine years after Hillary Clinton. as murder. And the TV show Unsolved Mysteries runs a segment on her case. The detectives working the case think it's a great way to get the word out about Greg Barker nationwide. He's out there running around and it works. And I think we should say that like to the young people listening to this podcast, everyone watched that show and like everyone watched it live. We were obsessed with that show. It was such a good idea. Yeah. Because it was like, can you help us find, I always think about the guy and you covered it, that cold case where it was like the boy that like, he got out of his car and was like out in the middle of nowhere in the Midwest. Yeah. And he's talking to his parents on the phone. I remember watching that one and just being like, we've got to find him. Like it activated the audience in this amazing way. Yeah. To pay attention to their surroundings more. I think. Right. Yeah. And that like, they're a part of like, they could actually help something in like these cases where it's like, well, if the police just say it's cold and then they start on the next murder because they're, they never stopped coming. Right. What do we do with these cold cases? Right. Yeah. And Robert Stack, just what a, you really wanted to help that man. He was so sincere and so like, come on, he was just in it. And it worked because a 40 year old maintenance worker named Becky Grannis is watching the show that night in Arizona when a familiar face flashes across the screen. It's presented as a photo of Gregory Barker, but she says, quote, I was sitting in my living room saying, I know that man. End quote. Everyone's dream who watched that show. Especially every 12 year old's dream that watched that show. That's my what? That's my boss. Yeah. That's my horrible teacher. So Becky thinks that this man looks exactly like a telemarketer. Her works in the office complex where she works. And that guy goes by the name Alex Graham. She's so smart. Cause I think I would have just called immediately and just been like freaked out. She goes to work the next morning and gets a look at Alex Graham to make sure. How spooky. Right. But like also smart where it's like, this is the guy. So she's convinced it's the same guy from the episode. So she calls police. And because Greg Barker is also a federal fugitive from the robbery charges, the FBI swoops in and arrests him less than 24 hours after that episode of unsolved mysteries airs. Greg Barker is an extradited to Nevada and prosecuted for those three robberies. First, he's given 20 years in prison and then he's brought to Virginia to be tried for the abduction and murder of Hilda Roche. Greg Barker pleads guilty. So there's no trial. Really? Wow. Yeah. He just immediately. Pleads. He's given 110 year sentence to be served after his federal sentence is over. And while we don't have direct testimony from him, detective Cahill says on unsolved mysteries that he believes that Barker went to Hilda's house that night under the guise of returning her wallet. And then after attacking her in the living room, he took her upstairs and sexually assaulted her in her bedroom, then put her in the trunk of his car, drove her and found a secluded place 10 miles away, led her into the woods and shot her in the head. So awful. Yeah. So when he's arrested in Arizona, Barker reportedly tries to claim that he was a government agent entangled in some sort of military conspiracy. And actually on that episode of unsolved mysteries, detective Cahill says Barker was known to have an unhealthy obsession with spy novels and believed himself to be a criminal. And so he's arrested in Arizona, Barker was known to quote, master spy. Yeah. Greg Barker dies in prison in 2013. As of now, Hilda Roche is the only victim that we know of that he has. And a lot of people talk about if he had this unhealthy obsession with spy novels, then, you know, he was mentally ill, mentally unwell. And whether his motive was straightforward and opportunistic, and he was aware of what he was doing, or he was in a relationship with a woman that he sexually assaulted, and then murdered a woman who thought that she could trust him. Police believe Greg Barker's name could come up in other unsolved cases in the future. Detective Cahill actually says on that episode of unsolved mysteries, quote, from doing a background investigation on Mr. Barker, we don't believe this was his only murder that he committed. We don't believe this is the last murder he committed. We believe that he could be responsible for numerous murders. Wow. We feel that possibly he could even be a serial murderer. We're very sure of the fact that he is smart and he's very dangerous. Wow. End quote. And that's the story of the murder of Hilda Roche. Wow. Wow. Great job. Thank you. It's so troubling that the little piece of information that you gave earlier on, that they found her wallet at her house, I hadn't even connected. It's like, that's how you know they had seen each other again. Yes. I mean, we know this too. And I'm sure that's people didn't really, he didn't even really try to, he didn't try to claim insanity or anything. It's like, it's so clearly planned. It was so clearly planned from probably when he sat down next to her. Yeah. And that's the darkest part. Yeah, for sure. God. DNA, let's get some fucking cases solved with this asshole. Well, great job. Thank you. Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there. They already know. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime. In real time. Goodbye. You know, a favorite M word, magnesium, like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals powered by pure Epsom salt and natural dead sea salt. It's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest. 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We've been waiting for even the slightest temperature drop so that we could get into sweater weather and finally it's here and I celebrated with my beautiful Quince cashmere sweater that I think I got the second year we started doing ads for them. They laugh. They do. Give the gift of quality this holiday. This season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was my favorite murder. It's the best way to support the show. Goodbye. All right. Well, I have a very different style of story as we like to do. Great. However, the story does involve the death of innocent. People at the hands of people who are criminally responsible. It's just in a different way. We're starting in the fall of 2008 in Dayton, Ohio. And Minnie Borden is an 82-year-old woman originally from Alabama who has been in great health other than suffering from rheumatoid arthritis, which has been an issue most of her life, not just in her older age. In fact, at 82 years old, she still lives by herself and she's fiercely independent. But then, in November, Minnie starts to have severe stomach pains and GI issues. Her appetite plummets, So most days she's eating only her favorite snack. The only thing she can keep down, which are Little Debbie peanut butter and cheese crackers. Minnie's daughter Earlene is becoming increasingly worried about her mom who insists that she's fine. I feel like that's a generation where they just didn't acknowledge being not well. Yeah. By December, the symptoms have not let up and Minnie is noticeably weaker. Finally on December 10th, she calls her daughter Earlene and says the stomach pains have worsened and she now also has chest pains. They take her to the hospital. Basically they check her heart and nothing shows up. So Minnie's discharged, but there's no improvement. And Minnie then goes back to her primary doctor. A few days later, the doctor finds out she had been having bloody stools for weeks now. And so Minnie goes back to the ER and is admitted, but it takes several more days before a stool sample is sent for pathogen testing. Which is, it's unclear why that took so long, but it's only at the end of December that a clear diagnosis comes back as salmonella, particularly a strain called salmonella typhimurium, which is one of the leading strains of foodborne illness. So Minnie is discharged, but she's very weak and she has several other big health episodes over the month of January and passes away on January 20th, devastating her family because Minnie had been so sick. Because Minnie had been so healthy before this short period started. And because they had been so worried about Minnie all of that time and through January, it seems that her family doesn't immediately register. This coincidence may be that in the same month, a major salmonella outbreak is traced back to a company called the Peanut Corporation of America, which mainly sells peanuts and peanut butter to other companies in industrial quantities to be used to make peanuts. It's used in snacks like Minnie's favorite peanut butter crackers. Yeah, the one thing that she was able to eat while she was being made sick from that one thing she was able to eat, it's so sad. So this is the story of a foodborne safety crisis that ended up causing multiple deaths and had criminal consequences. The main sources for the story are reporting from the New Yorker and the Washington Post, as well as a blog post from a very prominent food safety lawyer named Bill Marler, who represented some of the victims in this case. The rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. So the outbreak had begun in the fall of 2008 and a total of 714 people are known to have become sick from it. But I guess in these situations, the real number is always much higher because a lot of people don't recognize their GI symptoms as salmonella. And that's mainly because they're strong enough to fight off the infection and don't become dangerously dehydrated. So these outbreaks are often much, much bigger than is reported and realized. So people just will have salmonella and just not know it? Yeah, like, you know, you and me were, you know, younger. We have the immune system that can fight it, but it's, you know, children and immune compromised and elderly people. Those are the ones who can't fight it and are like hospitalized and found out. So it's probably way higher than that number. Have you had food poisoning? I don't think I've had legit food poisoning before. I think I would remember, right? You would know. Yeah, I remember Vince ate an oyster when we were in Las Vegas and I can't imagine. It's insane. Like I got it one time from a Chinese chicken salad. That's right. That was like made with cabbage. And I truly was like, I think I'm going to die. Like, I was like, when do I call someone because I haven't been able to stop doing this for two, three days. It's that long? It's two, three days? It's like your system has to purge Yeah. Won't stop purging. And it's crazy. Yeah, it's awful. Well, so yeah, for children especially and the elderly, you know, it's a problem. In early November of that year, a seven-year-old boy named Christopher Mignet from South Burlington, Vermont spikes a high fever. It's the first time his mother can remember him being sick since he was a toddler. He has bloody diarrhea and is throwing up and his stomach pain is so severe, he screams that he wants to die. Oh, God. I know. While this is going on all over the country, both state and federal health organizations are still trying to pinpoint the source of the contamination. They realize people are getting sick. They don't know how. In Minnesota, where there are nine known cases, a group of grad students working in the Department of Public Health start calling patients about their diets. The group works at night, and they call themselves Team Diarrhea, which is-- I don't know how to comment on that. Whatever gets them through their day. Exactly. They actually-- they do have to deal with literal diarrhea. It's a dark time, whatever gets you through it. Yeah. Eventually, in late December, they get a break. They find that two nursing homes and an elementary school each have a cluster of cases, and everyone seems to have eaten peanut butter. One of the nursing homes still has a jar of peanut butter that they had used on hand. It's from a brand called King Nut, which only sells to institutions like nursing homes, hospitals, and schools, and is fully made by the Peanut Corporation of America, which I don't think you should be allowed to call your company that. Doesn't it seem like they represent the country in peanuts? Call it Joe's Peanut Corporation. It's not like-- Well, that's-- NBC is the National Biscuit Company or whatever. It was a good naming device back then, because it's like, no, no, no. I'm not just a guy that built this by myself earlier. It's-- we're a whole thing of America. I don't think we should be able to do that. It just-- it's so not clear that it's, like, just a fucking company of executives making decisions, you know? It's just a bunch of people that do not have peanut allergies. Exactly. So the Peanut Corporation of America had originated as a family business started by a man named Hugh Parnell, who mostly sold raw peanuts to candy manufacturers. In 1977, the Parnells buy a roasting facility in Virginia and start roasting their own peanuts and eventually making their own peanut products. In the '90s, Hugh sells the company, but just six years later, his sons buy it back, led by the eldest named Stuart. So that's Stuart Parnell. And business booms through the early 2000s. People looking at the situation in retrospect now think that the key to their success laid in three hallmark practices of the business, which is, number one, sourcing the cheapest peanuts possible, number two, paying workers very little, and number three, not maintaining them. Number three, maintaining the facilities very well, just like Exactly Right Media. I will show you pictures of that Halloween party they had. I know, they had a Halloween party. It was the best. It was so good. They really did it. So there's a man named David Brooks. He's a buyer for a snack company. And he has long refused to do business with the Peanut Corporation of America. And this was based on three visits he made to the company's processing facility in the '80s. Brooks says, quote, It was just filthy. Dust was all over the beams, the braces of the building. The roof leaked. The windows would be open, and birds would fly through the building. What? It was just a time bomb waiting to go off. And everybody in the peanut industry in Georgia, Virginia, and Texas, they all knew, end quote. You know, I'm just thinking of, like-- and I'm truly talking off the top of my head and out of my ass right now. I know what you're going to say. Yeah. But, like, it feels to me like the peanut industry was really, like, a major-- Yeah. --thing in this country. Like-- Oh, yeah. --back in the day, you know what I mean? Like, peanut farmers and, like, the way, you know, people in Georgia, like, made their money. And it was a huge thing. There's a reason we all eat peanut butter. Totally. We eat so much freaking peanut butter in this country, I'd imagine, more than anywhere else. Yeah. And they're like, yeah, the birds can come through here. That's why. Totally. Peanut scientists, email us at myfavoritemurder@gmail and tell us-- We want to know. We want to know how big it is, how big is-- --the peanut here in the US. You know, they just did get-- because it is, you know, it's Halloween time. But they just did a story about how candy is getting really bad because, like, private equity keeps buying into candy companies and then just being like, you don't need real cocoa. You don't need real this. Right. Right. And they just keep making everything taste worse. And everyone's like, oh, is it because I'm not a kid anymore? No, it's because nobody gives a fuck anymore. Yeah, we need that oversight. We got to bring it back. Imagine that. Yeah. So Brooks mentions the fact that it's also Georgia, Virginia, and Texas, because the Peanut Corporation of America has facilities in all three states and all appear to be equally filthy. Ugh. I know. This seems to consistently remain the case into the '90s and the 2000s. In 2006, a new assistant manager named Ken Kendrick points out cleanliness issues at the facility, the leaking roof being the most egregious. And he'll later tell reporters, quote, "water, particularly, anything leaking off of a roof. And this is where things get a little disgusting. There is bird feces washing in." Yeah. This is a quote. "The owner wouldn't give us the money to do what we needed to do. The funds were not there," end quote. And so he quits the job pretty quickly after he gets it. He's just like, I can't in good faith do this without-- I mean, it is that thing where it's like, after a little while, the greed doesn't even make sense anymore. No. It's just insanity, and you are doing damage and pretending it doesn't matter. Totally. Totally. a thing called moral something. Moral peanuts? Moral peanuts. Where you don't put bird shit into your peanut mix? Yeah, I love that kind. That's it. Moral peanuts. Moral peanuts. But then in early 2009, after Ken had left the position, he hears that a PCA facility in Georgia has been linked to the salmonella outbreak in Minnesota. And so he actually calls authorities and keeps calling them, telling them that whatever problems they are seeing in Georgia will likely be found in the Texas facility as well. So he's just like, I'm not only gonna quit my job, I'm gonna be a whistleblower because this is so fucked. And how maddening where you're like, it's worse than you even think because it's not just in the place you're focusing on. You've got more coming. Totally. Totally. Horrible. So sure enough, just as Ken had said, in February of 2009, Texas authorities shut down a peanut corporation plant in Plainview, after discovering dead rodents, their excrement and bird feathers near an air exchange that ventilates into the production room. Have you heard that thing where like, there's allowed to be a certain amount of like bug parts in peanut butter or something like that? Yeah. There's all kinds of things like that with food. And again, I don't want to know the problem with like when they made that argument of like corporations or people. Yeah. It's like, God. But the problem is that they're not doing it. They're not doing it. The problem is that there's some people in this world that are immoral and don't give a shit about other people. Exactly. It's not a good thing. No. Later, it'll become apparent that there was either a massive oversight on the part of Texas authorities or possibly some corruption that's never been fully unraveled. That Texas plant opened in 2005. And at the plant, peanuts were blanched, roasted and chopped, but the facility never got a state license to manufacture food. The state never performed a state license to manufacture food. There was no single inspection until that one four years later when all the rodent and bird activity was discovered. Damn. So that's allegedly. Tests from this inspection come back positive for Salmonella and a sweeping recall is issued of everything ever produced at the facility in the entire time it had been in operation. So all of this, of course, is very bad. But what makes this situation crossover into criminal territory? Well, when the FDA inspects the Georgia plant, they invoke a 2002 law aimed at counteracting bioterrorism. And they do this in order to gain access to the company records. So it wasn't criminal until this moment that they were so, you know, lax. This was more like they were going to be given fines and told to clean up. Exactly. But I think it was so it's so severe that the FDA was like, fuck this. These are records that state inspectors, you know, wouldn't have been able to gain access if it was just, you know, regular charges. These records show that on 12 occasions between 2007 and 2008, tests of peanut products made in the Georgia plants came up showing Salmonella contamination. And after this, subsequent tests seemed to come up with clean results. But these initial tests would have prompted the company to quarantine the products and deep clean the processing plants. But none of that happened. They're not even lightly cleaning. They're not even doing a Karen on a Saturday afternoon just in case someone drops by. Passover clean like bird shit, bird and rat shit. Like, come on. Why do we have to ask? Truly? Why? Yeah, why can't at the same time in February of 2009, at the start of the Obama administration, Congress conducts its own investigation into the company. And through this investigation, internal emails are released. These emails demonstrate that Stuart Parnell, the head of the company, the son of the guy who started the company, and other higher ups knew there were issues with Salmonella and other food safety concerns. It also shows that the company would falsify test results by testing one batch of products repeatedly, then assigning those results to lot numbers of products that had never been tested. Peanut Corporation of America had signed contracts with food manufacturers, including Kellogg's, certifying that all peanuts had been grown in the US unless otherwise specified. But it becomes apparent with the record that the company had not been able to test any of the products. About 70% of the peanut paste the company had sent to Kellogg's had actually been from overseas. So they're just straight up lying. I'm sorry, because this is a little random, but this reminds me of that story that a doc series that came out about the mortuary guy that was just throwing bodies, where it's like the internal mechanism to go what's right or wrong, what's good or bad. And they're not seeing it's like, yeah, you can't just do one of these and walk away. Yeah. Consequences. There's consequences. And you're creating a situation that you're going to have to answer for at some point. You can't just keep putting like a cover over it and being like, it's fine. Exactly. It's just crazy. It stresses me out. You can when there's no oversight whatsoever. And another email, Stewart's daughter, who works at the company, emails the company's national sales manager and says, quote, they, meaning the peanuts, need to be air hosed off because they are covered with dust and rat crap, end quote. So she put it in fucking. How about writing? Throw those ones away. Don't air host. No. No, no, no. It's five second rule and rat shit doesn't fucking, that doesn't work. There's no air hose. There's no, what the fuck? Yeah. That's not, I love a person coming in and pretending they're really mad where it's like, you know, we have to air hose these all off. Yeah. Or it's like, no, no, no, it's over. And also like, how crazy is it? They put it in writing that like, did that mean they didn't think that they were doing anything wrong or that they didn't think they'd ever get caught? Well, I think this was early enough in like computer internet times where no one understood it was forever. Right, right, right, right, right. Totally. Including like email stuff. They're just like, this is my private email server. Totally. It's work email. All the fantasy. Yeah. Another set of emails from March of 2007 has a manager from one plant telling Stewart that the test results for salmonella and other pathogens were not ready for a batch of peanut products that were scheduled to go out. And Stewart wrote back, quote, just ship it, end quote. So like, bro. Just fuck it. No. And then goes home at night and is like to the kids, like, don't eat, don't eat that peanut butter. Yes, we get free peanut butter from the plant that I own, but we're not, we don't have that in the house. Is this the kind of person that's gotten a family for themselves? Or is this the kind of person that leaves work, goes straight to a bar, talks very loudly about other things, and tries to push all of the air hosing off of rat shit away? I bet both. I bet both of those things are true. Some people can do it all, truly. That's true. Two years after these investigations begin in 2013, Stewart Parnell, his brother Michael, and three other company executives are indicted. Two of the other executives plead guilty and cooperate in exchange for a lighter sentence. The third is found guilty and sentenced to six years in prison. And Stewart and Michael, who own the company and are the sons of the guy who created it, they're found guilty of multiple counts. They're found guilty of multiple counts of conspiracy, mail and wire fraud, and the sale of misbranded food. Stewart is also convicted of the introduction of adulterated food into interstate commerce. You're not allowed to do that? No, like it sounds like a kidnapping thing where it's like, oh, you took the food over state lines. Yeah. And you adulterated it. Totally. Or inadulterated it? I don't know. You did something gross to it. You did something adult to it. These are some of the stiffest sentences ever given to an executive in a food poisoning out break. Again, in Obama's administration, because that would never happen today. Investigators believe that as many as 20,000 people, possibly more, were made sick from salmonella in Peanut Corporation of America products. At least nine people, but possibly more, died. Oh, my God. But were never traced back to the PCA. Right. No children are killed in the outbreak, but several become very ill. God. In the wake of this and other outbreaks, the Obama administration, introduced sweeping new regulations to food safety systems aimed at preventing outbreaks instead of reacting to them. Unfortunately, during the second Trump administration, the FDA has lost about 20% of its staff, and the CDC has lost 25% of their staff. The CDC used to have 11 scientists tracking food parasites. Now it has three. And one of them is RFK. Totally. I am too, a scientist. I'm wearing a white coat. Ivanka Trump is the head of the. These cuts were widely attributed to having exacerbated the cyclospora outbreak from this past summer. It's, you guys, it's all connected. And that is the story of the Peanut Corporation of America scandal. I'm sorry, but I kind of want to rename my LLC the Peanut Corporation of America. What about the Karen Kilgarev Corporation of America? You're the only one who's in charge of Karen Kilgarev. But I love bird shit, so I have a real, there's a real push-pull about me and my recipes. Just hose down your house with the air hose before people come over. I'm going to have to air hose this cat shit out of your dinner. Oh my God. What? No, thank you. No. Oh God. It just makes you want to just grow your own food for the rest of your life. I mean, it feels like that's what so many people are doing. Oh, and also, of course, this podcast will kill you. Did an episode on Salmon, That is incredible. So go listen to that. It's episode 99. check that out nice yeah yeah get all the ins and outs of salmonella that you didn't get here get it so that you know when it when it's happening instead of being like i'm so sick and no you're not like you ate something wrong um did you see the lizzie borden monsters lizzie borden show there's a scene in it where they eat tainted oyster stew oh and it is the most disgusting but probably accurate scene i have ever seen that made me go no i'm never eating oysters again i have to say you just reminded me i started that before i left for vacation and it was i think i got to episode two of that of lizzie borden monsters ella baby she's warren and annette benning's daughter and she's incredible oh my god yeah i know i know here's the thing about acting nepo babies is they got raised by actors totally so totally it's not it's different than some of these nepo situations like it's like if you have a mom that's the most bad if you have if your mom's meryl streep you should get parts because you you already know how to do this shit yeah i feel like with this one elevate he's like bitches no one better call me a nepo baby because i'm gonna do this so well like it's it's really back up back all the way up i love that that's a truly hot take in 2026 i'm like you know what i love nepo babies we need more nepo babies plumber nepo babies peanut corporation of america nepo baby i was gonna say the peanut corporation of america really was not served by their nepo babies it's like it depends on the on the milieu oh my god can we talk about who the first podcasting nepo baby's gonna be because there's gonna be one and it's not gonna be ours who's it gonna be well she grew up with a podcaster so of course she has a podcast of course she speaks compulsively about things that happen in junior high that don't apply to the subject at hand oh my god ira glass where are your children are they podcasting we need to know we demand to see your children we must know well that was great i mean upsetting and there's a lot to think about people are all opening their packages of something with peanut butter and closing them back seriously like uncrustables would never you know god we'd know right away we would because i off of those they're pretty goddamn great well thanks for listening everyone from uh we're back from break and we're happy we'll be back on video next week this was very retro this actually reminds me of covid i know me too the pandemic having to record on fucking zoom every time yeah be like hey what's up and then you have to see your own stupid face in the zoom thing i hate it i know well i covered mine i used my piece of paper to cover the zoom thing while i was talking because i just will keep on looking at my hair it's not even there's a whole part i just don't brush i'm sure you've noticed there's a whole part i'm like oh that's not my problem that's whoever's back there's problem it's none of your business if you can't see it that part of your hair is none of your business and that's what my mother did and so that's what i will do because i'm a nepo baby a nepo baby of laziness yes all right thanks everybody stay sexy and don't get murdered goodbye this has been an exactly right production our managing producer is molly smith our consulting producer is kate schellenbach our creative lead is allison agosti our associate producer is tessa hughes and our editor is aristotle acevedo this episode was mixed by liana squalacci our researchers are maren mclashan and ali elkin email your hometowns to my favorite murder at gmail.com and follow the show on instagram at gmail.com and follow the show on instagram at gmail.com at my favorite murder listen to my favorite murder on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts or watch new episodes every week on netflix search for my favorite murder add us to your list and hit the double thumbs up button goodbye vacation planning should feel like a breeze not a 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