553 - Ohio, Let’s Say

[MUSIC] >> This is exactly right. [MUSIC] >> Lisa, tell them about our new show. >> We have a new podcast, it's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Juanu, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. >> And I'm Lisa de Julio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business. >> Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] >> Hello, and welcome. >> Welcome my favorite murder. >> That's Georgia Heart Start. >> That's Karen Kilgara. >> And we're full of beans today, if you don't mind. >> I forgot to, I have these caffeine pouches that you suck on, that I forgot to take. That's why I'm so fucking tired. >> Let's get you off those pouches. >> I think I need to get on them because I forgot to take it. >> Just drink that as fast as your can, Georgia's going to chug, chug, chug, remember back in the days, chug it. >> Full of beans, that's full of shit, right? >> That's what that means. >> For the children, right. >> If you're going to yell at children with a smile on your face, you don't get to say shit. >> Did you know I have seven children? >> That's crazy. >> And never talk about them. >> Yeah, what are their names, name them all? >> Danny, that's a boy, and then there's a Danny girl. >> Oh. >> Because we were so drunk when they were born twins, and of course Maurice. >> You don't ever forget Maurice. >> You can't. >> He rages if you don't. >> George Frank Blossom, Mimi, Elvis. >> All right, well, Kevin, we're just sorry, Pete, Kevin. Okay, this is a podcast. >> Listen, we're on, we're on. People's televisions right now in some homes. >> We're on the main stage. >> Hello. >> Can we turn out a little more? >> Let's let people see your sweater. Let's clear that mic. >> Amazing. It's a child's vintage sweater. It's too tight, and it's uncomfortable, but I just needed to wear it. >> It's so good. >> It's tight, it's real tight. But it's pretty like, it reminds me of the island story that I did that one time. >> The island of the Blue Dolphin? >> No, no, the one. >> Oh, I like it. >> I curse you with my dying breath. >> Yes. >> That's, it's got a good name. >> It's not Guantanamo. >> The Guadalajara. >> No, the Guadalajara. >> The Guadalajara. >> The Guadalajara. >> The Guadalajara. >> That's the Guadalajara. >> I said it first. >> Thank you. >> Have you worn that before? I feel like I've never seen it. >> No. >> It's really good. >> I've been saving it, and it actually ties into my story. That's why I'm. >> If I had the longest arm ever, I could reach in and see what the label is. >> It's gone, but it's definitely a child's. >> Yes. Did you see that? >> You're very small. >> That's what I mean. >> I mean, I'm busting out of this thing. It shouldn't be on me at all. >> There's actually a lace-up back that you're trying to close. >> Yeah. Did you see there's a woman in Ohio, let's say, who found, that's like, you know, four years. >> Somewhere. >> Could be Vermont. It's a department store in the, like, 50s through the 90s, and she inherited the warehouses full of the backstock that never went out. >> From the 50s to the 90s? >> Yes. And she's posting it all for sale. I bought a couple things. >> What? >> And it's everything from, like, the alarm clock that your mom had in its original box, to, like, tapestries, tons of garter, belts, and, like, uneas, and bullet bras, and just, like, the crazier shit that's called opa's something. Like, can you look that up for you? Opa's treasure. >> Opa. >> Like, your opa. >> Yeah, yeah. A Greek grandfather. >> Yeah. >> That, first of all, made my mouth start watering just as you were, like, a woman's grandfather. >> Yeah. >> And then I was like, this is gonna be good. >> Something's good. >> But that idea, there's a portal opening there with people going to be, being able to suddenly go back and have, in their hands, the thing they've missed and wanted. >> And, of course, for all this fucking weirdo, it was the original box. >> Yes. >> The most important part of vintage shopping. >> The true time travel of the way it used to be in the box. >> Original box, original, like, manual. >> Yeah. >> There's, like, roller skates. There's just, it's crazy. >> I've got to be a part of this. >> You must. >> I bought a thermos. I bought a fucking brand new dead stock. >> Was it Holly Hobby on it? >> Thermos. No, it's like, you know, windsurfing. 70s, like, windsurfing. It's so rad. >> Can I argue that that would be, well, maybe it's late 70s, early 80s? >> I don't even think there's windsurfing on it, but it's got that vibe. >> Oh, I see. >> You know what I mean? It just made you think of windsurfing. >> It just reminds you of windsurfing, you know, you're looking in the mirror. I'm having a real windsurfing moment. >> Fall. >> You have fall, girl. >> You were a coastal grandma all the way. It's time. >> I really am. >> Or you have a coastal grandma knitting you clothes. >> Is there a brick and mortar location? >> No, she's just posting it on this, like, messy website for sale. It's like, it's so clear that she's just like, shit, I don't know what to do with all this stuff. Just throwing it on. It's like. >> And are you in any way worried that if you don't get keep this from the murdering those, they're going to go buy it? >> Well, I've done a couple search. I bought what I wanted to buy. I've done it already before I told everyone. >> That's right. Sorry. You're welcome. >> You cleared it. >> Molly found it. It's called opa's vintage gal. >> Yeah. >> And go buy your weird stuff that's like made of spestos and mothballs. >> Yeah. >> They're certain dishes you can't have because they're fled in them last night. >> Don't do the cocaine that you buy from there. >> If you find little bags of cocaine inside a record sleeve, it's not for you. That's for another time. And also it's just, it's baking soda level strength. >> Right. Or it's those things that come with the clothes that your cats try to eat. >> Oh, yeah. The silica gel pack. >> Mm-hm. Hey, speaking of don't eat these poisonous things, we have a Tylenol poisoning update. >> Incredible. So I covered the Chicago Tylenol Poisonings in episode 43 in arrears, which I now know what that means, thanks to you. And it's been in one of those cases that just always stuck with us, you know, it's just who fucking did it? I would have, I would have bet money on Ted Kaczynski just because of the connections. However, recently a man who was found dead from suicide by cyanide poisoning in an Idaho church back in December of 1982 has been identified through DNA as Dr. Matthew Francis Bikowski. And so Bikowski was a chemist who had struggled with mental health issues and who had gone missing from Jacksonville, Florida that same year in 1982. Over the course of their reopen investigation, police learned that he had been preoccupied with cyanide and that he spoke at work about how easy it would be to tamper with over the counter medicine. So they found him in December, the poisons happened in like September, I believe. So super close. Okay. When going through his possessions, investigators found maps of Chicago where the Tylenol Poisonings had taken place. Those murders began, as I said, in September of 1982, just three months before Bikowski was found dead, never identified. His family was originally from LA and was prominent. His grandfather had been a city council member. Lots of not officially named him as a suspect in the Tylenol Poisonings, but have announced that quote connection. So I think we're going to get more information and, you know, how easy I am to believe things. I buy it. I mean, it's adding. It all adds up until it falls apart. Yes. Also, just for a case that had no suspects, no answers, no nothing to have an area where clearly investigators were like, we have hit upon something meaningful, that's why it's made it to the news. And a mystery on a mystery like they found this guy and for decades, they didn't know who he was. And it turns out just these weird little connections that someone made. Yeah. Here's what is a true trip, I think, probably for especially the younger people that listen to the show. For most of my young life, there was no tamper proof anything about any medicine and heat. This doctor was right. It's almost like the worst part of him took over like a Jekylline Heide, the doctor part of him was like, this is not safe. And then it's like, I'll make it not safe. Can you imagine like being at the water cooler allegedly, allegedly, can you imagine me at the water cooler and someone just dropping that, hey, you know, you could, how you could kill a lot of people really. Oh, shit. And you hold it for years because the vibe of it is so bad that you're like, I absolutely will never forget when he said that thing. Right. And then he went missing. Yeah. Yeah, creepy. Very interesting. Yeah. Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. Oh my God. Lexi. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi. You want to wear two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Julio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. I'm not going to get anywhere to fight you. That is wild. I learned that about you today. And I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and the little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how it comes. You are obviously I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight but there's only so much fight I can fight Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Lie. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. I don't know how to get into the Cornell 7. We just have to get into it because we need to talk about it. We're all on social media. Some of us too a terrible degree where we're buying foundation online and then it doesn't match our skin. But here's the experience that I had yesterday in watching it, hearing about it, hearing everything. There's a guy who went in and read the I believe it's an affidavit or some sort of official statement that was say it was 40 pages long and he kept saying pages 23 to 27 almost made me throw up at my desk. So we don't know what actually happened technically and for people that we are in the media, we can't be saying what happened. We don't know. Right. But we know what people close to it are saying. We know what student reporters at that Cornell student newspaper. We know what Jane Doe investigated and we know what Jane Doe is saying. We believe that because and I love this movement, we are all Jane Doe. We're all Jane Doe. Yeah. And that idea that some fucked up person thinks they're going to expose Jane Doe for some reason. Will to me ignite finally, I think in this country is like, how much further can you push women to be like, sorry, you're going to do that for what reason? How will that serve anything? What are you talking about? So watching video after video of women being like, I'm Jane Doe. Yeah. I've never seen anything like that in my life. You have me too. That's why I'm so sorry to be so just in it. But yes, we have. It doesn't. I just feel like it doesn't fucking change. We just keep having these fucking instances. Brock Turner, like, that should have fucking taught everyone a lesson. But sorry, who's it going to teach a lesson to? The lesson is not going to go to the rapist. Not the rapist. I mean, like that women somehow get to start not being afraid. By joining up together. Yeah. That's the way. And before I think me too was like a social media version, which was all very new. It was brand new. It doesn't catch fire the first time. You have to hit that match and hit that match. What I'm saying is this seems different to me. Yeah. I mean, the women that are watching everything are not watching passively anymore. And they're not watching as if it's somebody else anymore. Yeah. That's what it feels like to me. Yeah. I hope so. It definitely, it feels like it could be something huge if we make it that I think that women are just with every horrifying experience. It's not saying it makes anything better. It's just saying women are uniting. Yeah. It's less and less happening that people are able to be manipulated at the outset by here, we're going to string up this witch. Right. That is not happening in a way that I think is very different. Even from the Me Too movement. Yeah. Because that became look at how crazy and fuck this is. But when we're talking about coordinated gang rape that then gets put on a text thread with 50 fucking seven people, that's what people are saying. Expose it. Stand up against it. Yeah. Get pissed off about it. Yeah. I love that. And teach your sons just to not be fucking rapist. Give a shit about what they're doing. Right. To stand up against them. Not even don't be a rapist. Stand up against the wrong doings that you see. Yeah. And of course, we have to say this is all a legit. And also, we were recording this a week before it comes out just to keep that in mind. Yes. Also, I think it would be much easier for people to talk about stuff like this. If journalists had jobs, if newspapers were not owned or all shut down. And if our president wasn't a rapist too. Yeah. If the rape culture wasn't absolutely celebrated and then ignored and then celebrated and then wrestling on the lawn. Yeah. Yeah. All of that. Now, let's podcast. Well, here's the thing. It's a true crime podcast. And this is a serious fucking crime. Truly crime. It's a real bad crime that people have to start feeling is a real bad crime. Yeah. And also believing women when they say your friend is creepy don't leave me alone with him. Yes. Like then they're not friends with that person anymore. Right. That's like, it's the thing of like every woman knows someone who was sexually assaulted. But then don't know anyone who's a fucking rapist turns out. It's very strange math. Yes. Boy math. That is a piece of it, maybe. Yeah. Is me too, everyone, all the men, even the good ones, quote unquote that I knew were like, this is very dangerous. Right. People, you know, people could lose their careers or whatever. And it's like, right, but we've been stopped by that over and over again. And turns out they need to. Yeah. Turns out they need to be consequences to, I don't know, thinking that you can do something like that to your actions and your inactions. There are consequences for those things. Yeah. Okay. Exactly right. Media here are some highlights. This week on this podcast will kill you. Aaron and Aaron are joined by award-winning author Robert Kolker to discuss his new book, The Vanishing Family, which explores one family's experience with hereditary frontal temporal dementia and what it means for the future of dementia research. Wow. I have to read that. I will not be reading. Oh, that's fair. Please let me know. I'll let you know to not read it. Appreciate it. Over on varied bones, Kate and Paul go back to 1955 to discover the department store filled with good advice to discover the investigation of United Airlines flight 629 that exploded over Colorado shortly after takeoff. We've covered that as authority search for answers. The evidence begins to reveal that it was no accident, fascinating story. Yeah. Over on Hollywood land, Jake and Seth uncover the real life 1908 murder mystery that helped inspire twin peaks. This unsolved murder of a young woman named Hazel Drew, an idyllic New Yorktown, revealed a world of corruption, deceit, and even more murder. Then check out bananas. Curt and Scotty talk about it to ranch the owner's quest to make sure his pet doesn't die a virgin. Francis record heatwave leading to historic champagne levels and I appreciate that. So good. And on a related note, whether regular social drinking could actually be good for your health, the answer is no. And I got a letter in the actual mail from Curt and Scotty because they were doing the dry 69 challenge for bananas. Yeah. And they sent me a dry 69. I did it bumper sticker. Like a little note. How amazing is that? That's the cutest. I was like, how did you get my address? And then stay away from my door. Thank you. Yeah. That was really. That's very sweet. Yeah. Just so you know, I wrote in the answers now. Right as you do this. I'm like, what? This huge accomplishment where you're just like, hey, I did this thing. I feel great. And it's like, hey, guess what? Everything's fine. It turns out. And hey, listen, look, get out your gowns because it's a reward season for podcast. Hey, five of our exactly right shows have been nominated for signal awards. Hell yeah. Two face, John of God, which was our limited series from a Don De Media incredible. I said no gifts with the great bridge or wine a girl. Just Graceland, Jake Brennan's amazing show. Of course, brief recess with the star of trader. Absolutely. Michael foot and of course, Melissa Malibrand and the knife are beloved. The knife, Hanon, Pasha, amazing. This is a listener favorite situation. You have to go vote. If you love these podcasts as much as we do and we know you do, please go to signal war dot com and vote for your favorites. You have until October 15th. Do it. Your vote matter. That's so huge. I mean, it means so much to get an award like that. So please vote signal award dot com Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. Oh my god, Lexi, we have a new podcast. I'm Lexi, you want to wear two bus friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa, Julia, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. I'm not going to get any of your fighting. That is wild. We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. Because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Lie. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. Welcome aboard season six of The Girlfriends. Flight or Fight, which takes place 30,000 feet in the sky. There's great food, comfortable chairs, and attentive stewardesses. The stewardesses were so beautiful. But in reality, the stewardess job is far less glamorous than it appears. It was the most sexist job I think you could have. In this era, the airlines told these stewardesses they have to be single. They had no. You could excuse for why they wouldn't let women be married. They have to be skinny. We were starving ourselves. And they have to be young. You would retire at age 32. But one day, a group of stewardesses said, "This has got to stop." They risked it all, turning a fight for fairness into a revolution. Listen to the Girlfriends, Flight or Fight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, I'm first and only today, who I've got a doozy for you that I am excited to tell you about. I've been immersed in this now, and it's just a fight with your neighbor. I've been immersed since I moved into my house. I am the generous. You are on. Here's a photo of my neighbor. No. We are the best neighbors. Okay, this is a story of a different kind of killer. It's February 24th, 2010, and we're in Orlando, Florida, at SeaWorld. Oh. And a trainer named Don Brancho is performing with one of the park's many orcas or Shamu whales. This whale's name is Telecom, and Don will be the third person whose death is attributed to Telecom. This is a story of Telecom, the killer whale who killed three people before SeaWorld finally stopped letting trainers get in the water with killer whales. Oh, my God. The icy. There you go. Hey, and then psychically, I was like, I'll do your theme. I'm blue. Hi. Deep lip. I'm the deep sea. So this is Telecom belongs. That's right. So this story. Okay. I love the story from an article in Outside Magazine, my favorite, actually, they've really great, like, end up the articles. And this one was by Tim Zimmerman. And when I pitched it to Ali Elkin and Molly Smith of exactly right media, they, I've never seen them so excited about a story. And Ali, like, researching this and writing this was so excited about it. So I, I love that love it. They're excitement over this. Yeah. So I listened to a book called Beneath the Surface by John Hargrove. He's a former senior orca trainer at SeaWorld and it has been on both sides of the like four and against. Yeah. That wouldn't incredible perspective. Yeah. He can tell you everything. I mean, it's a really great book that explains why and how someone gets into that and what it means and what really happens. Wow. Okay. And then the other main sources are the documentary blackfish, of course. And the book "Death at SeaWorld" by David Kirby, also in 1997, "Frontline" episode called "A Whale of a Business." Boo. What? You love it. Noah. It's funny. It's like the most serious episode I've seen and there's someone who's like having fun that day. You're going to have a whale of a good time. Knock it off. Also, no one says that anymore. No. All right. So let's go back and let's get a little bit info about "To the Come" and "SeaWorld." So by 2010, when this episode dawned happens, nearly all of the whales at SeaWorld had been born in captivity, but not till it came. He is an 80s baby and was born in the wild. Much of what we actually know about Orcas and Orcas and Killer Whales are interchangeable names here has been learned very recently in the past couple decades. So we know that they are generally highly social creatures that form tight knit family networks with their pods. Orcas communicate with each other in distinct languages, even accents and dialects. So like, one's like Boston and one's from Dublin and they don't understand each other kind of it. They're like, "We'll stir." Exactly. Orcas societies are matriarchal. And even after they grow up and begin having their own babies, Orcas stay with their mothers their entire lives. They go to other pods to breathe. Can you imagine? Can you imagine? No. Orca with Janet. Oh no. In your bunk bed. Yeah. She's trying to put you to bed. Yeah. We're living in an RV for some reason. I think of that like the tightest quarters I could think of. Yeah. She's just touching elbows with you all the time. Oh, okay. I'm sweating. Me and my mom in my front room. And she's like, "Butts and lips." Yeah, look like I go on some lipstick. So and then the little pods are centered around the oldest female. So this Orca craze started in 1965 when a 22-foot male Orca was unintentionally captured in a salmon net off the coast of Nammu, the man who caught the whale sold him to the Seattle Marine Aquarium where he began performing under the name Nammu. He was so popular the aquarium captured a female killer whale who they named Shamu and then leased to SeaWorld in San Diego. So Nammu and Shamu are both sensations and this sets off a frenzy of other aquarium and marine parks which previously sprung up around the craze for performing dolphins because a flipper wanting to get their own performing killer whales. Sorry, hold on really quick. Yeah. The TV show flipper from the 50s and 60s is why we have like Marine World and the Sea World of Harvard. Yeah. Yeah. That's why. The frontline episode talks a lot about that, how it happened. It's fucking so upsetting and troubling I will warn you. This sets off an unregulated Wild West situation in the 60s, 70s and 80s in which professional hunters harass pods of killer whales with flash bombs and other noisy objects. They funnel them into confined areas and separate the smallest ones from their mothers to take them to perform. And when this happens, the rest of the pod stays nearby watching the calf get lifted onto a stretcher onto a boat and they're calling back and forth to the calf the whole time. Supposedly, it's heartbreaking to witness, not surprisingly. This has had to look up minds up being captured as a baby off the coast of Iceland in 1983. And there's a whole thing about the Pacific Northwest Wales and that practice getting banned here, having to move to Alaska, getting banned there. And finally, Iceland's like, whatever, go ahead. No. Sorry, Iceland. Yes. They would never. They did. Because there's so many of them and they were saying it's ruining the fishing industry. Oh, you know, industry. But I'll just say that as a child of the 70s, yeah. I'll use any excuse to talk about being a child of the 70s, but my parents subscribed to National Geographic magazine, which was a game changer. Yeah. I think it's so important and so incredible. And there was an issue of it that put out a 45 record on very floppy material, but right of whale songs. When it was like the whole save the whales, we started in the 70s. And it was just as I was kind of like becoming aware of all the things that I want to read that magazine or whatever. So it was like saving the whales and protecting whales and sea life like that. We're always this big part of at least California, maybe Northern California culture. Right. But meanwhile, this is actually what was happening. Right. And also off of that, sea world acted like they were part of this, save the whales thing. Yeah. They acted like they were doing a good thing by helping save the whale and helping to protect. Sure. And to teach people about this and do a tons of money to make sure they're never harmed. Exactly. So Tilla Cum has displayed for a year at an Iceland aquarium before being sold to a marine park called Sea Land of the Pacific in Oak Bay, British Columbia in 1985. This is a smallish park with not a ton of space to hold whales. It's like a big pool essentially. And then at night, Tilla Cum and two older females, they are stored essentially in this small holding tank in the dark. And the females, the two older females, treat him a male newcomer aggressively as they do in their pods in the wild. They rake his skin with his teeth, meaning they just almost like. With their teeth? Yeah. They rake their teeth down his skin. And you can see that there's like these cuts. He's bleeding when he's brought out to perform in the mornings and it's just really awful and tragic. Sea Land is often described as rundown and rinky dink. It's kind of on its last leg. I think it had dolphins originally and then they just replaced them with killer whales. The pools are small. The park has those three killer whales who perform tricks. The park calls them behaviors. But trainers here do not get in the water with the whales. Even in 1985, they were like, "That's not a good idea." They're what we call killer whales. Right. February 20th, 1991, a 20-year-old part-time trainer named Kelty Bern, who is a marine biology student and a competitive swimmer is wrapping up a show with Tillicum and the two other females. Kelty was a champion swimmer from Victoria, British Columbia. So she's an incredible swimmer. Trainers in general are hired mostly for their swimming ability and their charisma. And while they do have a love of animals and learn a great deal about them, at this time they don't have to have any particular science or psychology background than like understand whales. It just seems like something that should be regulated. Right. Yes. So as Kelty is walking along the pool side, she slips and her foot falls into the pool. And Tillicum at this point is about 10 years old. Having lived in cramped conditions with older whales, taking their aggression out on him for years, he reacts, has an animal, does, and grabs Kelty's foot and drags her into the water along with the two dominant female orcas. So I looked up in our Gmail account. I just put in Tillicum and I was like, "There's no way someone already wrote in about this." Yeah. multiple emails about Telecom. Including one from someone who wants to stay anonymous and go by K, from 2020. K said, quote, "I have a degree from a respected university and marine mammal science and marine conservation worked for two plus years at SeaWorld Orlando, and I have personal experience working alongside Telecom Tilly and animals like him." And this is how she explained what happened to Kelti when she was grabbed. Quote, "The three orcas submerged Kelti, dragging her around the pool in a game of sorts, preventing her from surfacing." At one point, she reached the side and tried to climb out, but the orcas pulled her back into the pool. She surfaced three times before drowning, and it was several hours before her body could be safely recovered from the pool. And again, she was a champion swimmer. After this incident in which Kelti burn dies, Salon sells all three killer whales to SeaWorld, one of which is pregnant with the first of many killer whales to be sired by Tillycom. That whale is known as Kaiquat or Kai. - You wanna see a photo of Tillycom? It's now a good time. - I mean, will it ever be a good time? You're a photo of Tillycom. - Also, just like when you swim in a pool for like three hours and your hair's all fucked up and it's your skin feels terrible and your eyes are red. - Yeah. - And these are animals that are, that's supposed to be their air and their like surroundings. And then they're just in a bright blue chlorinated pool like that. - It just seems like it's so pristine that water compared to what they need and thrive in. It's just very troubling. So Tillycom arrives at SeaWorld just in time for a killer whale craze to sweep the nation. Orca madness reaches an absolute fever pitch around the release of the movie Free Willy in 1993. You remember that? - Yeah. - People lost their minds. - They got the children on the orca side. - That's right. - Yeah. - And it's possibly why many millennials believed they would grow up to be marine biologists. KER of murdering now in residence says the vast majority of people hired for positions in animal training are psychology grads who arm in their spot only after passing grueling swim based and psychosocial examinations despite what certain groups will lead you to believe. Nobody is walking off the street and jumping onto a whale at SeaWorld. - We believe you. - And in that book that I read, the one called Beneath the Surface, talks about like everything you had to do to become a SeaWorld trainer. - I'd love to take a psychosocial SeaWorld test. - The fail. - Fail. - Immediate fail. - What? - Take her to jail. - Start to jail. - Yeah, we should find that out. That'd be a good fan call video. - It'd be like, you're just holding a herring and staring into someone's eyes. - Don't look away. - What are we gonna do? - What are you gonna do? - So in this atmosphere, I've increased popularity of killer whales from the movie Free Willy. SeaWorld faces some scrutiny over the practice of keeping whales and other mammals like dolphins in captivity for the purpose of entertainment. Activists regularly protest the practice and throughout the '90s and early 2000s, there's mounting evidence that the whales are not doing well in captivity and that their living conditions are making them aggressive. And to this day, the only known instance of killer whales, killing people or almost killing people, the only times that it happened is with captive whales. So in the wild, there's been a couple isolated incidents where a wild killer whale has bitten a person in a wetsuit, but they've never displayed this dragging behavior. And as soon as they realize in the wild, it's a person and not a seal they let the person go and the person has survived. - Wow. - So, you know why? 'Cause those little round teeth, they don't have shark teeth. They have those little funny teeth. - I mean, there's a lot of them and they're big. - Yeah, they're large. - They'll hurt you. - But they make me laugh 'cause it's like, you look at this thing and you're like, oh, this is so scary and then they're like, ding, just like funny little teeth. - Little plushies. You gotta sell those little plushies. - Yeah. - So back to the captive whales. On the morning of July 7th, 1999, Telecom is discovered swimming around his tank at sea world with a body of a man, naked man draped across his back. And that's actually a behavior they'll do is, they'll play with their food. So they'll do it when a seagull will land in the pool. They'll toy with it and kill it and then put it on their back and like cruise around with it, like showing it off. And in the morning when someone gets there, they see that there's a man dead draped across his back. Officials will later determine that this man was named Daniel Duke's and then he was 27 and from South Carolina. Very little has been published about him, but he was a drifter and a self-professed environmentalist and it sounds like he probably suffered from some degree of mental illness. It appears that he hid in the park after closing time with the intention of swimming with the killer whales. And there are nighttime security, like they should have been able to stop him. - Right. - But you wouldn't expect anyone to want to do that. - No. - And he was clearly not aware that only some of the whales were cleared to have trainers even in the water with them. And telecom was expressly not one of those whales. SeaWorld is very quick to paint Daniel as some sort of deviant. Later a former trainer named Rick O'Berry will say quote, "The problem is that the whales have nothing better to do. They're bored. We literally bore them to death." It's like you living in a bathroom for your life. And autopsy reports state that Dukes had no drugs or alcohol in his system. And the cause of death was deemed to be drowning, but I also saw hypothermia somewhere because the waters kept at 55 degrees. But he was also like mangled before death as well. It's really disturbing. I take back what I said about the teeth. - That was incorrect. - Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. - Oh my God, Lexi, we have a new podcast. I'm Lexi Iwaneo, where two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. - I'm not gonna get any worse than fighting. - That is wild. - Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business. - We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. - We're best friends, but we don't always agree. - Because you told us how accommodating you are. - Obviously I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. - Don't lie to me. - Don't lie to me. - Don't lie to me. - Lier. - Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, I don't really care. - Welcome aboard season six of the Girlfriends. - The stewardesses were so beautiful. - But in reality, the stewardess job is far less glamorous than it appears. - It was the most sexist job I think you could have. - In this era, the airlines told these stewardesses they have to be single. - They had no good excuse for why they wouldn't let women be married. - They have to be skinny. - We were starving ourselves. - And they have to be young. - You would retire at age 32. - But one day, a group of stewardesses said, - This has got to stop. - They risked it all, turning a fight for fairness into a revolution. - Listen to the Girlfriends, flight or fight on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - So in 2004, SeaWorld has a close call at San Antonio Park with another highly experienced trainer, a man named Steve Able. And these little close encounters are in the movie Blackfish. The documentary Blackfish. And I was so mad that I had to watch it again for this because it's so stressful. - Oh, I've never seen it because I can't deal with it. - Yeah, I can't. - It's incredible. It's so well made. It is so fucking disturbing. - Yeah. You should watch it. - Is that the same one as the one? It's not the cove where they show, but-- - No, no, no, no. - No, no, no. - That's what I see that too. It's fucking awful. They're all awful. - I think I've gotten into one documentary in an area where I was like, well, now I'm haunted forever because my brain takes pictures and shows me randomly. So I can't have that in there. - Yeah, maybe don't watch Blackfish. - Great. It's so good. I mean, I'm sure it's-- - You should. - I think it changed things. - Yes. - It changed things. - To what it did. So Steve Able is performing with Kai, which is till it comes first son, who's now 13 years old. And this is, again, in San Antonio, SeaWorld. Kai starts breaching and slamming down on Steve in the water, and there's video of this. And Steve seems to get underwater in time to not be seriously injured from the impact. Then he stops Steve from getting out of the pool at the exit ramp and pushes him around the pool. Somehow, after about a minute of this, Steve seems to calm the whale down and leap over him to exit the pool. And it's pretty incredible that he-- it just shows how good he was as a trainer that he was able to escape. This thing that maybe he shouldn't have been and in the first place will argue. - But still. - Right. And Steve still works for SeaWorld and is pretty high up in the company. - Well, I mean, after that, you would be like, no one can touch me entirely. - Totally. - I beat a killer whale. - Layoffs, I don't think so. - No way. - I'm running this place. - This happens again two years later in 2006 at SeaWorld in San Diego with a female whale named Casaca and a trainer named Ken Peters. And in this incident, Casaca drags Ken to the bottom. of the pool by his foot two different times, each stretch for about a minute. And again, Ken is so good at his job that he manages to control his exhale while he's being dragged under. They have to have these crazy lungs and they have to like, part of their test is holding their breath for this insane amount of time. - Good psychosocial test, yes. Yes, and then like swimming down to the bottom is huge tank grabbing a weight and like coming to the top and then going back and forth like laps. - Right, we could definitely do it. - I would do it so easy, but there is serious qualifications. - Yes, yeah. - It's like the scuba diving experience, but also, I mean, yeah, there's a lot going on. So somehow Ken manages to control his exhale and hold his breath and then he's able to stroke the whale's head, calming her down until she actually does let him go. And Ken's wetsuit is torn at the leg and the bite has broken his foot. Again, there's in blackfish, there is video of this. And again, this is all in front of crowds of children. - Children, and they're here. - Exactly, screaming, crying, screaming. It seems like SeaWorld is not at all chastened by this, saying Katsaka will likely be allowed to continue performing. I think a lot of the times they just chalk this up to trainer error rather than acknowledging how dangerous this is. - Three years after this in December 2009, a trainer named Alexis Martinez, a man, is killed by a performing killer whale at a marine park called Laura Parquet in the Canary Islands. The park is not owned by SeaWorld, but the whale is, they have this transactional thing. - They've used them. - Yeah, yeah. And it had been on loan to Laura Parquet. And while SeaWorld downplays a relationship between the parks, SeaWorld trainers, including Dawn from the beginning of her story, had supervised and trained Laura Parquet trainers. So there is a relationship there. Dawn had worked with Alexis previously and Alexis is known to be the top trainer at this park in a place where you didn't actually have to be that good. Their standards were way lower and he was incredible. He was really charismatic. Everyone loved him and looked up to him. So this happening to the best of them says so much. - Yeah. - You know? The killer whale named Keto had pulled Alexis underwater then rammed him in the chest, causing massive internal bleeding. - These are gigantic. - Yeah, I haven't even gotten to how big they are, but picture an elephant. Picture a full grown elephant. - Underwater. - Underwater. - With a little eye that's looking at you. - Yeah. - Yeah. And the teeth. - So this all brings us to two months later. It's again, February 24th, 2010, and we are in Orlando, Florida at SeaWorld. Dawn Brancho is 40 years old and one of the most experienced trainers at SeaWorld Orlando. Again, it's not newbies that this stuff is happening to. She trains the other trainers. She's huge on safety and teaches the less experienced trainers, all the techniques and practices that SeaWorld has put into place over the last 20 years. Dawn herself is married to a man named Scott. They live in an Orlando suburb with two chocolate labs. She's got a magnetic personality in high school. She was the class president and the homecoming queen. Her Christmas card list is 250 people long. Working at SeaWorld as a trainer had been Dawn's childhood dream after her own family had seen a Shamu show at SeaWorld when she was a child. After college, she worked with dolphins at six flags, grade adventures in New Jersey before getting a job at SeaWorld and steadily working her way up. At this point, Dawn is the face of SeaWorld appearing in promotional photos next to many of their performing killer whales, including a mural at the Orlando International Airport. So here's a photo of Dawn Brancho with a killer whale. But that's her. - Yeah. - So that day Dawn is slated to do a Dine with Shamu Show for a lunchtime crowd. This is more of an intimate show done in an open-air restaurant surrounding a pool in which a killer whale performs tricks with a trainer. So you pay more to get in there. You get some like crushed sandwich? - Yeah, probably. - Today Dawn is performing with Telecom who is at this point one of SeaWorld's oldest whales and by far the largest. He is 12,000 pounds. And I looked it up. A cow is 1,200 to 1,400 pounds. And an elephant can be up to 15,000 pounds. So he's 12,000 pounds. So like an elephant, like a good-sized elephant. - Yeah, like a kind of skinny elephant. - The next largest whale is half that size. So he is the fucking big guy. But Telecom seems distracted that day. In a nearby pool, diners can see that a group of other whales are kind of agitated. Telecom keeps vocalizing loudly and those other whales are calling back to him. The whales pretty a show that morning hadn't gotten so well. Meaning they weren't doing their behaviors or tricks. They don't like to call them tricks. Instead, the whales would all see more interested in rough housing with each other than performing their tricks. And that might be why Dawn kind of pushed him a little more is because more was expected from her for this intimate show. She's still working for a corporation, a billion dollar corporation, right? - Yeah. - Now at Dine with Shamu, Telecom misses some of Dawn's cues and that causes her to give what's called a neutral response. Meaning he doesn't get rewarded 'cause he didn't do the tricks correctly. Then it seems like he's getting agitated about this. And also another thing is they're hearing is so good that they can tell when their trainer is at the bottom of the fish bucket when they're running out of fish. - Wow. - So he knows that his treats aren't coming the way they should be. Tell me his treats, his food. Like that's how he gets fed. So I know-- - I hate it so much. And it's like all of these examples you keep giving or like the hearing or the communication of those things. It's like you have trapped-- - There's so intelligent. - There's so intelligent. - That's so intelligent and so sensitive. - Totally. - And just like, too bad, totally. - Do a flip. - Totally. - In the name of education and entertainment. - To the great cost of human fucking life. - Totally. - Doesn't make sense, totally. - Wait, is SeaWorld still open? - Uh-huh. - Okay. - It's like, oh wait, there's a lawyer behind you. - Yes, what do you want? - No, I'm just all allegedly. - Okay. - Okay. - So the show's wrapping up and then Don goes over to a shallow platform, which is where the trainers interact one-on-one with the whales after they've done their little show. Their little show. And they lay down and kind of have like some like calming interaction with them. And they're supposed to do this. She lays down on like a really shallow pool. What do they call them now? - A Baja deck. - Yep. (laughs) She lays down on what is now known as a Baja deck and is kind of soothing Telecom who's in the water with his head up like near her. And what happens next is not completely clear. The other trainers on hand are not looking when it happens and the guests and other staffers have gone downstairs to an underwater viewing area, but they're supposed to get a picture with, quote, Shamu. And suddenly they hear a big splash and they see Telecom do a barrel roll and make the horrifying realization that he has dawn in his mouth. Okay, so there's this big debate on whether he's holding dawn by the ponytail or forearm, meaning he pulled her in. From the footage that you see, it looks like he grabs her by the arm. The ponytail is an argument that's trying to make it her fault. You know, really fucked up way. Even though ponytail wasn't supposed to have that. - Yes, but that's not true. And they all did like ponytails were the norm. So it's kind of becomes her fault if she has a ponytail. - It does agree. - Yeah, exactly. In their argument. And actually she, Dawn had been growing out her hair to donate to lots of love and they're saying it's, yeah, it's really ugly. And also Dawn followed the rules like to the tee. If there was a rule about a ponytail, she wouldn't have been wearing one, you know? So Telecom let's go long enough for Dawn to make a break to the surface where she gets one more breath of air before he pulls her back down and thrashes and rams her. And they of course have the 911 calls in blackfish. So yeah, you shouldn't watch that. I know. - Also down in the viewing area people can see this. - Uh-huh, oh my children. - Staff quickly try to usher guests away as an alarm goes off and other seaworld staff race to the pool. Some people they slap the water to try to draw Telecom to the surface. Others slide out a net. He's just not responding to any of his cues. That would help let her go. In the end, it takes about 40 minutes to corral Telecom into a smaller pool where he finally lets Dawn's body go. EMT's attempt CPR, which is unsuccessful. Telecom stays at the surface watching this happen. All their curves will describe his demeanor as seeming to hope she will wake up. Dawn's cause of death is eventually ruled to be drowning and blunt for us, trauma. - You know, I gotta say, I think a big part of this is being able to project on to an animal. - Totally. Totally. - Like how in the world would you be like, he wants her to wake up? - Yeah. I mean, perhaps it's a possibility, but also this is a wild animal whose entire system is built to feed itself. - Right. - And if there's no more fish in the bucket, he's got to get food. - Yeah. And he's probably, I mean, he's been in solitary confinement for most of his life. - Yes. - He is not having a good time. - No. - This isn't his friend. - No. - All the things that might be on the other side because that's what would draw you to. - And you want to believe. - Yes. - Right. - It's really sad. This tragedy sets off a firestorm around sea world causing people to stop and think about if there are any circumstances under which killer whales and other animals should be kept in captivity, especially when it's strictly for entertainment and not for conservation purposes. It had never been Dawn's intention to get in the water with telecom. People don't get in with him. She had just laid down. There's a long list of rules working with telecom. Dawn is aware of these rules and one of her jobs is to give new trainers the tilly talk about working with him. That talk basically boils down to if you get in the water with tilacum, you will not survive. And of course Dawn was well aware of the track record of the incidents, including two previous deaths involving the whale. So after Dawn's death, in February of 2010, OSHA, which in case you need to know, because I did the Occupational Association. Opened an investigation into SeaWorld and trainers are never allowed back in the water with killer whales. Okay, that's a great first step. Yes, OSHA finds SeaWorld and demands changes be made to the pools, like emergency floors that raise, SeaWorld fought all of this in court but ultimately lost tilacum continues to perform obviously without any trainers in the water. Starting about a year after Dawn's death, he goes back out and trains for the audiences. No, just nothing. No, I mean they can't let him back out. So that's the employee safety side of things, the OSHA stuff, but it's really only after the release of Blackfish that the animal welfare side of things is discussed. The documentary which wins an Oscar ignites a firestorm of criticism about the practice of keeping these highly social animals in small tanks and manipulating them into performing. SeaWorld has since announced that it will be phasing out its breeding program, so eventually there will be no more killer whale shows at SeaWorld. So they are phasing them out and it's unclear what SeaWorld will evolve into when this happens whether it will solely be a theme park with some sea animals or whether it might use those performance spaces to expand its dolphin programming. This practice raises all the same ethical concerns for performing whales, but dolphins can't easily kill people. So it's not as important. We don't know that though. No, seriously. They're very smart. So long and thanks for all the fish. So here is a quote from K. Armurterino quote, "Well, many pushed for Tilly to be freed in his final years. Biologist and ecologist agreed that Tilly would be incapable of fending for himself in the wild and would likely be susceptible to ailment from treatable diseases. It was fear that he would end up like Keko, the Orca from Free Willie, who was released without clearance of researchers and biologists and who ended up dying of pneumonia off the coast of Europe. So you can't put them back." Right. They didn't have the correct upbringing childhood wild animal experience. None of it. Tillycom dies in 2017 at SeaWorld Orlando of an infection at the age of 36. He survived by nine calves. He sired and three grandchildren. Wow. Don's family starts the Don branch out foundation, which raises money for organizations that provide services to children and animals. And K says quote, Don's family is amongst the first to say that Don passed away doing what she loved and that they do not hold Tillycom or SeaWorld accountable for her death. In fact, every year since her passing, Don's family hosts a walk at SeaWorld Orlando in her name to race funds for the rescue causes that Don cared for so deeply. And that is the story of Tillycom the killer whale. Wow. I just didn't know any of that stuff happened anymore. Like, yeah. I really thought after a blackfish, I was like, oh, they're going to take care of all that. But it is a business. Yeah. That's kind of how it goes. I think God, they can't ride them anymore and get in the water with them. It's a weird comparison, but it makes me think of there's a podcast and it talked about there's a guy that was like a hypnotist, but he also was a scammer and all these other ways. And one of the things he did remember permanent makeup that came out and it was like you can get lip liner tattoo. He was the one that came up with that. And he had he was not a doctor. He was not. He didn't study anything. He went to, I think South Asia saw people doing it there with tattoo like kits. And then was like, oh, well, they should do that here on women and then just held the weekends himself. Wow. And taught all these women just kind of like, well, here's how you would do it, but like nothing was official. And there's been so much of our life and culture and world in this country. That is truly like some scammer made it up and then people believed and trusted totally trusted totally. Yeah, it's so ugly. It's so heartbreaking. I personally will never go to see world as a kid. I went not knowing these things. No, I knew anything but never go again and haven't and yeah, that's it. Oh, the lawyer's back. So sorry. We have to go to see world. And thank you to Kay, our resident Marine biologist, Merterino. Wow. I love the idea that the Gmail is just sitting there with also like more research waiting to be mine. That's why you say send us your hometowns about anything. That's what we mean. So if you have a story about fucking killer whales, send it to my favorite murder at Gmail. That was your grandpa, one of those original people who chased down whales. Well, bust him here on our pod. Tell us all the bottom. We want to hear it. Also, just because we don't read your email in 2016 when you send it doesn't mean 10 years later, it won't get read. Oh, no, we have your email. Hers was from 2020. 2020. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Just a six year hold. We just had to review some facts. Right. Wow. Great job. Thank you. That was a really, that was a great story and it's something really worth kind of hearing about. Yeah. Because I feel like maybe people are like me where it's like, I think I know, and then I don't really know. Yeah, I could have done like so much more research on this. I'm going to finish listening to that book and maybe fall asleep to it at night, which is really disturbing. Yeah, be careful with that. Can I recommend a parallel and adjacent thing? Bluey, you think I should watch Bluey? Have you ever just spent some time with Miss Rachel? Oh, no, I love her. There's a movie called Rustin Bone and Marion Codillard plays a killer whale trainer who has her legs bitten off by the whale. And then it's her life after. Oh, and Matthew, Chris Lillard, I love Matthew Lillard. Shaggy from Scooby Doo comes and then the beautiful actor Matthias Schoenarts comes and he's just some dude that has to come and help her. Like he's almost like a care worker in home that has to carry her around. And he's so hot. He's so hot and then eventually he's like, and she takes forever, of course, for her to like go outside and it's this whole kind of rehabilitation. And then he's like, well, sleep with you. You want me to if you want to like get it going again and whatever. And it is like the most heart-wrenching, realistic, unromantic, hottest. Like I can't explain it, but I would watch it if I were you, especially after this. Yeah, I will. Amazing. Well, thank you. And thank you guys for listening to the story and tuning in and being with us. We appreciate you. Stay strong, rise up. Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Leonis Kualaci. Our researchers are Mary Maglachin and Ali Oken. Email your hometowns to my favorite murder at gmail.com and follow the show on Instagram at my favorite murder. Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeart radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. And now you can watch my favorite murder on Netflix. And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the remind me buttons. That's the best way you can support our show. Goodbye. Lisa, tell them about our new show. I'm Lexi Wanil, where two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. Listen on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.