540 - Battery and Rock Night

this is exactly right there are plenty of things that keep you up at night your sleep tracker shouldn't be one of them hatch sleep clock does it differently it tracks your sleep from your nightstand no ring wristband or judgmental score waiting for you in the morning instead you'll get personalized insights to understand your sleep and recommendations to build a routine you'll love night after night hatch sleep clock the sleep tracker designed to get you to sleep available now on hatch.co goodbye the hulu original series phony is coming to hulu and hulu on disney plus october 20th sonny's life is pretty great until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his with one exception his mom starring five-time emmy nominee connie britain and sam nivola this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface watch the hulu original series phony on october 20th streaming on hulu and hulu on disney plus for bundle subscribers terms apply goodbye this episode is brought to you by 20th century studios whale fall now playing only in theaters based on the acclaimed book by pulitzer prize winner daniel krauss it tells the tale of a diver fighting for his life after being swallowed by a whale experience the ultimate survival story that's unlike any movie you've ever seen before don't miss whale fall now playing only in theaters goodbye hello and welcome to my favorite murder that's georgia hartstock that's karen kilgariff adjust adjust adjust your microphone here we are with our microphones microphones are a big part of podcasting ladies and gentlemen it's kind of the only part really yeah they do more than we do yeah once you have a microphone you're basically a professional podcaster you never give it up you never shut the fuck up you never can shut it down do you remember when the way i used to shake the old microphone yes dang do you remember when we were amateur podcasters do you remember when you were the sound guy steven was just a gleam in our eyes i do so this funny thing happened to me this funny thing happened okay i was reading this are you doing bits yes i'm listening to a book or i listened to a book that i totally loved it was great it's a one of the drinking alcoholics memoirs that i love so much called drinking a love story by caroline knapp it's from the 90s so i thought it'd be dated no it's life-changing is this the one where there's a scene where she jumps on her boyfriend's back like that i don't and they crash she has her friend's children yes and she crashes like that oh her friend's children that's right yeah it's so good it's changed a lot of things i haven't had a drink since i listened are you serious yes it's been eight days um but the weird thing about the audiobook is that it's read by the same woman who read i'll be gone in the dark no her name's gabra zachman she's like a famous audiobook narrator but i'm listening to this like sobriety book and i'm expecting someone to break into the house in the middle of the night and murder everyone it's just really you listen to i'll be gone in the dark so many times so many times it's just really like jarring and also like i've ruined everything for myself the true crime essentially i mean it is what we do yeah it's how it is yeah i think that's so funny that's like i wonder if that person probably has the most insane range of books and it's like oh i can do more than just these two things right but i remember that there was a couple of those at the time very groundbreaking yeah kind of autobiography tell-alls about here's how i got through this horrible thing there was another one about eating disorders it's so i think no one recommends it anymore because it's so triggering right it's basically someone giving you a training manual right well she has a lot of that in there i mean it's just it's a woman it doesn't seem like in the 90s that was discussed a lot you have this idea of what an alcoholic is and it's not a professional smart woman from a you know good background right and it just kind of shows that it could be anyone yeah and that it builds and builds it sure does grows and grows and the thought process behind it all is so familiar i was almost laughing at myself yeah about how obvious it is but yeah you know this is the way yeah alcohol is an addictive substance yeah people get addicted to it yeah because for a little while you get to slippy slide out of reality nice it's real nice it reminds me of this morning i could not get out of the shower because it's we're having a very strangely cold summer here in la and today well i haven't been outside georgia i was like it's freezing today did you spill i've spilled all over oh and then i ripped my dress open oh yes oh my god netflix falling apart fan cult we've got someone's coming go away go away look don't look at me look away i still i'm still drunk listen eight days is not that long no i think the felt tablecloth will be fine it'll be fine leave that in please all of that netflix needs to know a nice long four minute hold shower i can't get out of the shower sometimes because it's so warm and i don't want to be cold so i just keep standing there forever should write a memoir about not being able to get out of the shower and then i'm babysitting my friends kids but i won't get out of the shower just keep standing back should we just get into it yeah let's do it all right we don't have to fill i gave a book wreck fucking she gave a book wreck she blew her own dress open hey we have a podcast network you know what it's called exactly right media that's right here are some highlights well we do right now have a very big summer announcement for you and we're very excited it's exactly right newest true crime limited series it's a scammer series from our friends at blanchard house you know they know what they're doing the show's called royal swindle and it follows two aussie con women who scam members of british high society it's a wild story of greed lies and love royal swindle premieres on july 23rd so go follow the show wherever you get your podcast get on it early you are going to want to listen to all of the episodes at once it's an amazing story and it's really helpful for you guys to follow and subscribe and stuff so if you are gonna listen please go do that now also there's horses oh fuck yeah there's horses involved the horse people a horse society horse arenas and if you're looking for some good news the next installment of honking hoorays premieres at the end of this episode hey you're welcome in advance and hey listeners do you know that you can also be lookers we are on currently netflix along with our other podcast buried bones so you can watch brand new episodes of my favorite murder and buried bones every single week right here on netflix you can see us on netflix it's really shocking to most people i run into who are like i saw you on netflix i saw you on netflix i saw you on netflix i thought your voice was the other one's voice always and if you're craving even more mfm join the fan cult at fancult.supercast.com you get every episode of my favorite murder ad free plus merch discounts exclusive audio and video content and more good night the holidays are right around the corner which means people are about to do a lot of shopping and if you have a small business they could be shopping with you get your business ready with shopify shopify is the platform for a record-breaking reliable holiday selling season at every stage they power millions of businesses worldwide from household names to those that are just getting started shopify's pre-built website themes make it easy to launch a beautiful professional looking store without ever touching a line of code and shopify's mobile app lets you run your store from anywhere from tracking inventory to customer support to handling payments and more if you're ready to launch your business before black friday go to shopify.com slash murder to start your free trial that's shopify.com slash murder go to shopify.com slash murder today to hear your first goodbye georgia goes first georgia who goes first i got a big one especially for australians great shout out across the world speaking of aussies hey oh look i tried i did listeners if you were watching netflix right now you'd know that georgia was getting her little glasses out of her little glasses case it's just like mr. over here where georgia's now turning into podcast personality hello hello it's me podcaster georgia okay okay stop saying okay okay okay so this isn't can i get a rose please can i get a martini cold as ice i want to be able to skate on top of it that's how we order a cold martini did you know that oh is that right i want to skate meaning it's so icy on top i could fucking ice skate and the bartender's like you got it and rolls their eyes so hard they fall backwards behind the bar i would never say that by the way i'll say martini if it's warm i won't send it back right i just don't i can't skate but if you don't i'll smile anyway because i don't actually know how many of this works so much you don't even understand as long as your mustache is curly i'll do what you say i'll tip you so much then some recently you tip so much that the owners think that the bartender's giving you free drinks so if you're gonna tip a lot tipping cash yes because i'll fucking blow out the tip sometimes if the person's like cool and nice or it's like my neighborhood bar right and vince was like that's that actually fucks them over because the owner is like why did they tip you this much you must be giving away alcohol and then they get in trouble God, I've never thought of that. I haven't either. Well, but not at like a busy place, not like at a major restaurant. Like at a bar, if they see a tab that was like a $36 tab and you tip them $50 on it, they're going to be like, why did they tip you $50 on it? How many drinks did they actually get? Yeah, but that's pretty forensic accounting when people are just drunk and giving away money because they love the person that gave them the drinks. Right. Is it a drunk rich person or are you giving away drinks? Or is it someone that's straight up bad at math? It just wants to get the fuck out of there. Do you know what I did the other night? What? I thought I would be cute and try to make the whole thing add up to an even number. Oh, yeah. And fuck the waiter over by about $13. Oh, no. And I just kept thinking about it. I ended, we went there a second night, so it's not a big deal. But I was just like thinking about it. Like, why was that the priority? Yeah. A round number for who? It feels good. For you and not for the waiter. Yeah, but still, it doesn't feel good to me because I know. I didn't get there. So I'm always like, I think I minused it by $10. Oh, no. I still can't carry the one. My grandma used to carry this card around that was like tipping and the exact numbers for what you wanted to tip. So smart. Why don't we have those anymore? They're called calculators in your phone, but I can't figure that out. Right, because you'd have to kind of know. I want a little card that says if you want to go. 18, 20, 22. Small, regular, big. Yeah. All right. We'll figure this out later. Someday we will figure this out. In the meantime. True crime. Let's do a true crime podcast. We're going to Australia. This is an infamous Australian case that has technically been solved in that the alleged killer was sentenced. But to many Australians, it remains a mystery, both because they think the wrong man was sentenced and also because the victim's body has never been found. And some people even question if there is a body to be found. There's a lot of debate over this. We're going to figure it out today. Great. Solve this one. Let's do an on-air solve for once. Yeah. To those who believe justice was served, it's also a survival story, which in which a young woman escaped her captor and lived to testify against him. We love those stories. Yep. And to everyone who doesn't, she's a liar who fabricated the entire story and is responsible for her boyfriend's disappearance. This is the story of the murder of Peter Falconio and the survival story of Joanne Lees. So you're about to tell a survival story, but we don't know how to interpret it. We know. OK. She's telling the truth. We do know that. We do. You and I. Yes. And a lot of people. But there's a lot of questions behind it. And that's partly because of the way the investigation was done and the way the trial and the evidence went that people questioned a lot of things. And also, she's a woman who survived. And so people just immediately assume lots of stuff. Yes. OK. We'll get into it. And we'll get lots of hate mail about it. The main sources from the story are reporting from The Guardian and the Sydney Morning Herald. And also, there's a documentary called Murder in the Outlaws. Which I watched. The rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. The documentary clearly thinks that the wrong person was put in prison. So, you know, grain of salt. There's a bias? Yeah. OK. So it's late 2000. Peter Falconio and Joanne Lees, they're 28 and 27 years old. They're a couple from England. They've been together about five years. If you want a picture of who I'm talking about, she could be played by Selma Blair. And he could be played by Sean Gunn, James Gunn's little brother from Guardians of the Galaxy. Here's a photo of that. Actually, the people. Oh, OK. She's really pretty. She's got like a Selma Blair meets Elizabeth Taylor, but British kind of a thing going. Yes. And he's real cute and has a very sweet face and smile. She looks like the sister from Peep Show, which is a deep cut. Oh, yeah. Very similar to that actress. Totally. Yeah. So they met at a nightclub. Peter was a student at the University of Brighton and they moved in together. And now they are living their 20-something dream. They're taking a year off to travel around the world. Just kind of be like backpackers. They're backpackers and explorers. They set out in November. They start in Asia and they travel to Nepal, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Cambodia. Like something most of us would maybe do two of those in our lifetime. Right. You know? Yeah. In January of 2001, they arrive in Australia and they both get what's called a working holiday visa, meaning they're allowed to get jobs to fund the rest of their travels in Australia. So Peter and Joanne's parents are nervous about the Australia leg of the trip because there's recently been three, highly publicized, highly violent incidents, two of which targeted backpackers. Those are the backpacker murders, which happened in the late 80s and early 90s. And you covered at a live show in Australia. It's episode 88. And it's just a fucking incredible story that I had never. Ivan Malat, right? Ivan Malat and the survivor Paul Inions. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And then there was also a horrible fire at a hostel in June of 2000, which had been started on purpose and killed 15 people. Oh. So understandably. You know, these 20-somethings are in Australia. Their parents are worried. But for many months of the Australia leg, everything goes well. They stay in Sydney. Joanne gets a job in a bookstore. And Peter works for a company that installs furniture and offices. They're just kind of like saving up to go on their next leg of their beautiful trip. I would love to get a job in Sydney and just live there for a little while. At a bookstore? Ugh. And just like kind of walk down by the harbor when you're done. Also, I wonder if there's something about knowing your job isn't permanent. Like this is not the rest of your fucking life. Right? This is like a stop in between adventures. Yes. It's your 20s, man. You got to do it. Right? This is your sign right now, everyone listening. Just try stuff. We're the people that are like, don't leave the house. Yeah, we really are. Lock yourself indoors. And then we're like, but you know what? Also, go to Australia. So they are saving money for their next leg of the trip, which is going to be a huge road trip across Australia. And as we know from our tour there, there's like the big cities, Sydney and Melbourne and Brisbane. And then there's. Nothing. Fly over like bushland and small towns and then Perth. And so there's a lot in between there. That's just kind of long, quiet roads. Yeah. The outback, they call it. The outback. Jesus. Thank you for doing my research for me. So they set off for that trip on June 25th, 2001 in an orange camper van. It's like a VW. And they plan to sleep in the van in the back or like go camping. Or sleep by the side of the road. Boo. I was like, you either look thrilled or like miserable. I mean, I've done it and I've done it in a VW van. Oh, yeah. That was my old life, Georgia. That was before I knew you. It is the kind of thing where you get to see amazing stuff up close. You get to camp in nature, which was like, you know, doing it like, say, in the California Redwoods. Yeah. Can't recommend it enough. We were just surrounded. But for somebody like me, who's a real lover of nice hotels. Yeah. Go to hell. Amenities. Got to have them. Room service. Just eating. Indoor shower. Hot, hot shower you can just stand around in. So first they go southwest. They stop in Canberra and in Melbourne. And then they start their trip by heading north. By July 11th, they arrive in a place called Alice Springs, which is a small city in Northern Territory. So there's all the different territories. This is Northern Territory. It's kind of basically in the center of Australia. And Alice Springs is the biggest outpost. There's a lot of outposts for many, many miles of barren outback. There's the word outback. Yeah. I looked it up and I saw it described many different ways online, this Northern Territory and this long stretch of the outback. And it seems like it's a town that's struggling to be touristy while dealing with lots of crime. And there's a lot of lingering racism against the aboriginal population. I got this quote on Reddit. The population is a real mixed bag from lefty arts degree kind of people working in government agencies. It's a classic redneck outback bogan. And I don't know what bogan means. And then someone else wrote, it's a place criminals go to hide. So they stay in Alice Springs for a few days. And it's kind of like the last stop between civilizations. And there's like little towns along the way, but not much else. So on the evening of July 14th, Peter and Joanne leave Alice Springs heading north towards the outback. It's also called the Red Center. Picture Las Vegas, that long stretch from L.A. to Las Vegas of nothing but desert. But the desert is all red, like this dusty, rusty looking red color. It's really beautiful. It's a very barren kind of Vegas, Utah, Joshua Tree open land with different kinds of bush. The bush. It's bush country. It's bush country. So at around 630 that evening, they stop at a rest stop where they share what the papers will later refer to as a joint of cannabis. And the press will make a big deal about this later. And then they continue on their way with Peter driving. And he just goes slightly off the road and comes back ever so slightly off the road. Right. So it's about 730 now. It's pitch black. There's no moon. I cannot even stress how dark it is out in the bush. Can I just say this real quick? And it just came to me. Don't get high before you go drive through tens of or hundreds of miles of darkened desert. That you're unfamiliar with completely. Yeah. Let's remember they're from England, small town in England. Like one of the people that they met in Alice Springs was like, don't go at night. There's nothing. Don't go at night. There's no reason to do it. Yeah. Right. It's like not safe and it's scary. So they're in a remote area. They're on their way to a settlement called Barrow Creek. Peter and Joanne notice a pickup truck with a canopy pulling beside the van and keeping pace with them. It's one of those something's wrong with your car pullover situations that we know all too well. And they hadn't been having issues with the car. So they assume that's what he's pointing to. And she's like, don't pull over. I don't trust this guy. There's not traffic on this road at all. There's nobody around. But he pulls over anyways. So at this point, Joanne hasn't really gotten a great look at the guy. But she sees that he's wearing a baseball cap, has like a big mustache. And Peter walks around to the back of the car to talk with this guy. And they talk about sparks coming out of the exhaust pipe, maybe. Peter comes back around and tells Joanne to sit in the driver's seat and rev the engine so they can see what's wrong with the car. She does that. She hears a loud bang, which at first she believes is the car backfiring. But then the man who had stopped them comes to the driver's side door where she is and points a silver handgun at Joanne and tells her to get out of the car. So she immediately realizes that the shot she heard was probably Peter getting shot. The man ties her wrist together with this like weird contraption and gets her into the passenger seat of his truck. And it's a green Toyota little truck with a canopy over the bed. And it's so specific. I'm going to show you a photo. It's normal to Australia, but like it almost looks like a little. Army van. Yeah. You know, with like a canvas top on the back. Yeah. And the wheels are lifted a little bit so you can go over rocks. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's made for the outback. Yeah. So this all comes from her after the fact. One of the most terrifying traumatic moments of her life that she explains what happened. And she's not totally clear. She doesn't remember a lot of it. But basically she says she notices a stocky dog riding with him. And then the man throws her down, tries to tie her ankles as well. She fights back. And then he forces her into the bed of that truck. But then he leaves. She's tied up. He leaves to do something, presumably hide Peter's body. Because if someone had been driving by, they would have seen that. And at that moment, she just has this. She says, quote, a strange calmness came over me, almost like an acceptance. Like, this is it. I'm going to die. But then out of sheer terror, I realized that I wasn't just going to die. He was going to rape me. And I believe that was the turning point. And that's what saved me. Because I. Just all of a sudden, from somewhere, found some strength. End quote. She pops up and she's able to get her ankles free. And she runs into the bush, like runs into the outback. And it's pitch black out there. She hides in a bush. The attacker comes after her, scans the area with a flashlight. It's completely black. And somehow the flashlight never quite lands on her. She's laying flat. There's nowhere to hide. I know. Somewhere like, I mean, like just the things I'm picturing of the TV shows. I've seen that take place. Yeah. Places like that. We're just like, what do you get down by a plant on the ground? And that's exactly. So stressful. I know. He eventually gives up and goes back to the road. We're assuming that he wanted to get rid of Peter's body in case someone drove by. And he leaves. And Joanne hides in that bush for five hours until 1 a.m. When she feels safe enough to get out, she returns to the road and flags down a passing truck like a semi. Thank God something was passing. Yeah. I mean. And also. How scary that would be to be standing there like, well, let's hope this person helps me. Let's hope it's not the same person. Oh, so scary. The truck drivers, there's two of them, and they are shocked to find her there. They say the fear in her face, they have never seen it before in their lives. It's. This is a terrified woman. They they use the wire cutters to get the wrist stuff off. There's tape around her neck. They get that off. She's got cuts and scrapes everywhere. She was laying in the bush. And they drive her to the closest service station where they call the police who arrive. Finally, when the sun rises on June 15th and launch into one of the largest manhunts in Australian history at the scene of the attack, they find a stain on the ground that's later determined to be Peter's blood. So there is a small pool of blood, but they always say that it doesn't seem like there's enough blood and there's no like brain matter. If he really got shot in the head, there's inconsistencies there. But who knows? They also find the orange van that they were driving about 80 meters off the road, hidden in the brush. However, roadblocks don't get set up until around eight hours after the initial attack. So the search area is vast. It's about two times the state of Texas, the search area. Oh, my God. Helicopters scan the area, but they don't find anything. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Turning something you love into a career is exciting. Then come the invoices. Lucky for you, Squarespace can handle the business stuff so you can focus on your business. 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She's really ignoring the press. The hostile ignoring. That's what I do. That's a play right out of my playbook. I mean, also, the first thing I thought of when you said that was the dingoes ate my baby. That's what everyone talks about. OK. Yes. Everyone talks about the Chamberlain case when this gets brought up because she was treated the same way and found out to be totally innocent. And she's taken the very next day to do a play by play reenactment of exactly what happened. In the car, she walks everyone through it. She doesn't remember a lot of it, but she's very, like, composed, which, of course, it's like, do you think maybe they gave her a valium? Do you think maybe she wanted to help the police? She's not going to break down crying in that moment. She's just like, it's just the judgment. Have you ever compartmentalized? Right. Exactly. You have to hire people that have alcoholic parents so that people understand all the tricks of the trade. I mean, dissociation. And she's there. Yeah. Chef's kiss to dissociation. But she's standing there like, yes, the trauma of her closest loved one murdered in front of her. Yeah. And then I have to take these steps to get that murder solved. Right. Like, it's no time to be falling apart. No. One of the things I tell you right now that I know and that you don't know, like, could help find my boyfriend if he's still alive. And, yeah. That's supposed to be the agreement anyway. It is. The British and Australian press immediately pounce on her like they are hungry for this. Like, wolves for the story. They suggest that her story might not be true or that she's hiding parts of it. Joanne gives a press conference 11 days after the attack. And at the time, it's treated as her, like, finally deigning to speak to the press. And they immediately pick apart what she's wearing. She has, like, a tank top on that says cheeky monkey. I mean. There's no PR training back then. No. Yeah. She doesn't play the victim the way they want her to. She doesn't play it smoothly. Also, that's that kind of thing where it's like you're trying to get an. Outfit together for a press conference. A thing you've never dressed for before. You don't have anybody on your team. side. And probably if she's in grief or whatever it is, it's like you're just wearing the shirt you picked up and put on. She's on a trip in a foreign country. She picks something out of her luggage and puts it on. Oh, I forgot about that part about it. It's only what she has. But during the press conference, she acts dismissive. She doesn't cry, which is, of course, reported on. But it's literally been less than two weeks since she was kidnapped that this happens. So even more articles come out. I mean, it's a huge cover story. Doubting Joanne, saying her tone and behavior don't seem appropriate, blah, blah, blah. We all know that. And it seems like she's pretty pissed off at the press, as well as the police, who at this part start re-interviewing her, and this time with a tone that she's a suspect, not the victim. And there's video of this in the documentary. They start questioning her story. They say that they gave her statement to some analysts who said, there were 12 apparent inconsistencies in her version of events, meaning like shit didn't add up. And it's like, oh, you mean the story that she told you when she's fucking traumatized? Maybe high. She was also high. Oh, right. Right. A cannabis joint. Yeah. I forgot about that part. So they're saying it's inconsistent with the truth. Someone comes up and shoots your loved one in the head, and then you have to tell the story correctly, or you do this. Right. Right. So she does get angry at them, you know. And then after three weeks of this, DNA testing on the shirt she had been wearing at the time of the attack comes back, and there is a small speck of blood on it that has nail DNA. It's not Peter's DNA. It doesn't belong to anyone in their database of criminals, either. Police also turn up CCTV footage from a Shell gas station back in Alice Springs from just after midnight on the evening of the attack. The footage shows a Toyota truck with a canopy matching Joanne's description. You can't see the plate, though. And it shows a man going into the station. He's wearing a baseball cap. He has a mustache, just like Joanne said. We don't know if it's the person that she said it was. It's just someone happens to drive in who matches the description at that time. Multiple descriptions. Right. Car and face. Right. Despite all this evidence, there are many stories picking apart minor inconsistencies. For example, there's conflicting details in a composite sketch. We don't even know if the guy in the Shell station is him. So if it's not consistent with him, it's maybe because it isn't him. Right. We don't know. So two years go by with occasional articles that still cast doubt on Joanne's story. Peter's body is never recovered, and there's no meaningful leads. And then in 2002, a 42-year-old drug runner named Bradley John Murdoch was. It's just, it's late in life to be a drug runner, I think. He's just like, be a drug dealer at this point. Right. So he's a bad dude. So people don't think he's guilty. People do. Either way, he's a criminal. He was in a motorcycle gang. He's been a drug runner for a long time. And there are some violent acts on his record as well. Okay. He's a racist. He has racist tattoos. He's pulled a gun at a soccer game on an aboriginal crowd. Like, he's not a good dude. So he's arrested in connection with a different case in which a 12-year-old girl and her mother are both abducted from their home, and they're bound and gagged, sexually assaulted, and kidnapped for 20 hours, driven away. And this isn't mistaken identity. Like, they picked the wrong guy in a lineup. Like, they knew him. He lived in their back house. And they identified him. Yes. This is Bradley John Murdoch, the drug runner. And he's like 6'7", 6'8". He's a huge man. And when he's arrested, police notice a few things. He had tie cables in his truck, consistent with what the mother and daughter said they were tied with, and also consistent with what Joanne had been tied with. The truck seems to match Joanne's description. It's the same one as we looked at. In fact, Murdoch had been tracked down and interviewed in 2001 because his truck matched the model in those gas station CCTV footage. I think they just questioned a lot of people with records who had that truck. But police had not gotten a DNA sample from him then. They get one now. It's tested, and it's found to be a match for the blood that had been on Joanne's shirt. Wow. So it's a match. Okay. And then he's acquitted of the case with the mother and daughter, or it's a hung jury. It just seems like, what's the word? So fucked up? Yeah. It's almost like they just put enough reasonable doubt into the jury's head that they didn't convict him. But it's clear to most of us that he did. Got to have that evidence. Yes. And then immediately as he's walking out of the courtroom, he's tackled by police, and he's arrested for Peter's murder. Oh, shit. Yeah, they were like ready to pounce. Oh, incredible. They were like, if he gets off on this, we're immediately bringing him in. That had to feel good to, like, that prosecutor. Yeah. Where it's like, go ahead and enjoy that two minutes of you got acquitted. Right. The case attracts so much attention, the trial's delayed for a while, and so it eventually starts in October of 2005 in Darwin. Murdoch's lawyers use the angle of discrediting Joanne's testimony because she's ready to testify against him. This includes suggesting that she was having an affair while she was living in Sydney, which, in fact, she had been cheating on Peter. She had an affair with a man, so they use that as part of the headlines. Sorry, how old is she? Twenty-seven. I mean, isn't that what everyone does? Yeah, and she admitted it. It wasn't like a revelation at trial. She admitted to the police. Yeah. She said that they had had an affair, they liked each other, she was going to go on this trip with Peter, and then they were going to see where they landed. And she got put into, like, police custody, and e-mailed him, this guy, while she was in police custody, like, weeks after Peter's death or this incident, and said, when this is over, meet me in Berlin. It just didn't look good for her. Oh. And that's why police were kind of going after her more. I mean, even if it's purely, like, escapist, and I just want to be in a time where this is over, sorry, that's. First of all, can everyone just stop putting things in fucking writing? I mean, seriously. She's not appropriate. She's not a perfect victim at all, which is upsetting to people, but it doesn't mean she's not a victim. This is worst-case scenario for if I was that defense lawyer. I would just be like, are you fucking kidding me? Yeah. Because this is motive now. Right. Well, that's the other thing, too, that's so fucking annoying, is they're like, when people who say that Murdoch didn't do it, they say there's no motive. There's no motive because she fucking took off. The motive was to murder, was to sexually assault and rape this woman. Come on. Like, that's the motive, period. No, you're completely right. Yeah. I mean, like, the idea of a motive for a serial rapist is the act, so that doesn't make sense at all. No. Like, saying they didn't have money on them or something? Like, what the fuck? I don't know. Yeah, or like, trying to steal the car. No, he killed the boyfriend and tied up and kept alive the girlfriend. May I introduce to you a bunch of other serial killers over history that we have talked about? Which one do you want to hear about? This is why we talk about it. So, Joanne testifies against Murdoch. She is already identified in a photo lineup, which also has some issues behind. If you watch the documentary, you'll see she might have seen this guy getting arrested in the news and then did the photo lineup and picked him. Yeah. The evidence against him in this whole trial, like, isn't great. And that's a lot of what people argue is based on the evidence, it doesn't show that he's guilty, even though he could be. Right. So, that's difficult for people, and I understand that. Yeah, that is. And so, Murdoch is found guilty. Guilty, both of the murder and of assaulting Joanne. He appeals to sentences multiple times unsuccessfully. Laws are passed in Australia that prevent any convicted murderer of being granted parole who has withheld the location of a body that has not been found. They keep saying, take us to the body. If he didn't do it, then he can't do that, though. Right. Right. In 2019, Murdoch is diagnosed with throat cancer, and he died just about a year ago in July of 2025, without ever revealing the location. With Peter Falconeo's body. In the statement, the family says about Murdoch, quote, We are only forced to think about him now that he's died. We don't want to let him ruin our lives more than he already has. The awful thing is our family's future with Peter was cruelly taken away. Today, we instead focus on the three children we have left and our grandchildren. We didn't have much faith, but we were hoping Bradley John Murdoch would reveal where Peter was before he died. But even now, we still hold out hope that his remains will be found. End quote. And the Northern Territory Police are offering a reward of up to $500,000 for information leading to the recovery of Peter's remains. He would be 53 years old right now if he were still alive. And that is the story of the attack on Peter Falconeo and Joanne Lees. Wow. Now, what would you do, knowing this story? And I only know what you just told me. Yeah. But knowing this story, if you found out they had DNA evidence, that actually it was all her plan, would that shock you to your bones? Is that something you're like, it's absolutely not possible? Based on the evidence, it's not possible. But based on the evidence against him, and there's other DNA evidence that doesn't check out, it's just a little like, it's hard to believe the story against Murdoch. I don't know. I don't know how to say it. I would be very, very shocked if she had something to do with it. Okay. What about you? You don't know enough. Well, just based on what you told me, it's like that idea, it's like, believe women always. And yet we have told many stories about women who never stopped lying, you know what I mean, had very evil intent from early days. So it's not impossible. I just think it's fascinating when cheaters cheat as if it's no big deal in the grand scheme of things, where it's like you just put a little time bomb in your future that then tells the person that you care about the most they cannot trust anything you say or do. But what's her motive, though, to be with this guy? Then just break up with your boyfriend. They're not married. They have no financial ties. And there's just so many weird inconsistencies. And I think that the police investigation, because of the way it was done, first and foremost, made it so that it'd be really hard to convict someone for this and have everyone believe they got the right guy. So anything about her being guilty based on that evidence also can't be trusted. Right. So I just don't think. There's more evidence that this guy, Murdoch, is guilty than she is. And even that is kind of loose. Right. Although just the affair really screws it. It's not good. In terms of motive. Yeah. The other thing people talk about is like, why would, how, she'd never been to this place, this remote place in the middle of nowhere. How are you going to plan this perfect crime and get away with it? Yeah. But there are little weird things like the dog that was with him. She identified as the wrong kind. The wrong kind of dog, which just shows that maybe it's not Murdoch. But also she told him she got in the truck. He forced her in the truck this way. And there's actually no way to get into the truck that way. But it's like she was traumatized and she was going through it. She remembered it incorrectly. I mean, something like that. And I'm just guessing, obviously. But it sounds like the kind of thing where cops went and reenacted something later on. It's like, well, she's saying she did this. And then you want to go, how big was the cop that was playing her? Right. How big is she? She went and did the reenactment. She is six foot eight. Also. And the other thing is. Oh, she went and said she's so she's standing there going, this is how I did it. Yeah. Like you couldn't have. Step by step. Yeah. And they're like, that doesn't make sense. This doesn't make sense. There's also the theory that people believe that Peter Falconio is still alive and had just faked his own death and disappeared. And maybe she helped him with it. And that's why she's lying. People say that they've seen him. Oh, some people say she's in on it. Some people say she's not. Yeah. But that he's still alive and he like. Just escaped his life. And she's based. This is her cover story. Yeah. Or. Or she's not in on it. Yeah. Those two guys. It's like, I'm kidnapping your boyfriend. Right. I think that's the most male ideal version. We're just like, no, these are two guys having a prank. It's not a man killing the man so he can rape the woman. And then there's no motive again. Like he didn't have this crazy debt. He had a lovely family. He's young. He was a very sweet guy. Everyone loved him. Yeah. Well. But I think all of it just is, it's just all smoke and mirrors to point away from the person who most likely murdered him in the exact way that she said it happened. It's interesting because I feel like those, I saw them after the fact. I witnessed things. So not helpful. It just feels like they're always wrong. Yeah. But I mean, man, please come back to me about this within three months because I don't, this is frustrating. I will. I know you hate it. And it's not a cold case. I didn't give you a cold case. It's solved. It's still frustrating. It's considered solved. Yeah. That's tough. Well, also the police wanted to solve it as soon as possible to, for tourism's sake, you know, and show that they've got the right guy. You'd think that she would have said that he was six foot eight or whatever when describing her attacker. It doesn't seem like she got a great look at him, but. She's in the passenger side. He pulls up behind. He pulls up behind them and says, pull over. Something's wrong. She's sitting in the passenger seat. She's talking to him. She, if she did turn around, it would be headlights in her eyes. Yeah. All of the inconsistencies on her that they place on her can be explained. Yeah. By logic. Yeah. So, yeah. Wow. Okay. Okay. Well, great job. Thank you. Compelling and interesting and important. Yeah. God, I hope. I know. It would just be nice. I'll let you know. Okay. Thank you. Everyone. We have. Incredible news. Quince specializes in effortless, high quality pieces like ultra soft, organic cotton and premium Mongolian cashmere sweaters. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. I love that Quince keeps adding. Items to their like roster when it's like jewelry, they've got hair stuff. Sheets. Sheets. No joke. Yes. So boom. Now available in Canada. And the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let him know it was my favorite murder. Goodbye. Goodbye. The Hulu original series Phony is coming to Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus October 20th. Sonny's life is pretty great until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his with one exception, his mom. To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives. But for Sonny, he knows something is off. As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger. Is this all in his head or is there really an imposter in his house? Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Navola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface. Watch the Hulu original series Phony on October 20th. Streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Goodbye. This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios, Whalefall, now playing only in theaters. Based on the episode, and the acclaimed book by Pulitzer Prize winner Daniel Krauss, it tells the tale of a diver fighting for his life after being swallowed by a whale. Experience the ultimate survival story that's unlike any movie you've ever seen before. Don't miss Whalefall, now playing only in theaters. Goodbye. We're going to take a left turn today in honor of the World Cup. Oh. That's happening here in the United States of America. Did you hear about any of this? Yes. It's bringing worlds together. Amazing. People are having a, this is the dawning of the age, of Aquarius moment. Boston and Glasgow, I believe, are now deeply in love and getting married. You're watching a lot of people from the UK come over and like eat real southern food in Georgia and lose their fucking minds. I heard something about ranch dressing being prevalent. People are sending it back to themselves. People are getting caught with it in their carry-ons. I love it. And I think for a lot of people here, it's like people here are being reminded of why this is a great country. Somebody- Ranch dressing. It's ranch dressing and southern food. And someone said it's like, I've heard this twice now, it's like we're all cousins and our parents don't get along, so we don't like each other. Oh my God. And we finally got dropped off when we get to have a sleepover. Yeah. And now everyone's having a great time and going, fuck our parents, they're keeping us You realize you've been lied to this whole time by your parents, and these kids are awesome. Love that. Countries are not the governments that make terrible decisions for them. Thank you. It's the people. They force us to pay taxes that go to duty. They do terrible things, but we don't want that. We don't want it, and we love our fellow man. We do. It's all very beautiful. TikTok.com if you want to jump in on it. It's pretty lovely. So kind of in celebration of that and the fact that I think I've told you this story, but Robin Cullis-Singham and I, my sister's friend, Adrienne's husband, if we can, we will watch World Cup games if I'm like home for the summer or around. Yeah. And the fun thing about it, we started doing it when we were on vacation. Hawaii is getting up and watching them at like 3.30 in the morning. And so be like. Someone would get donuts the night before, and we would do this whole thing, and then we would be the weirdos in the front room. And of course, I don't care about soccer one way or the other, but I love being up in the middle of the night for like a weird reason. Love it. And we're going to do it again when I go home for 4th of July. I know. I'm very excited. By the time this episode airs, which will be on Thursday, July 9th, it'll be the semifinals starting. Okay. And just for your own interest, we have more than 27,000 listeners in Chile. Really? A 90%. 90,000 in Brazil. Wow. So for the listeners that are in those countries, hi. We can't believe you listened to this podcast. Thank you. We're so excited. Yeah. Welcome. Absolutely. Welcome. Maybe Google how to say it correctly. Don't use AI. So we're just very excited that you're here. So this story begins September 3rd, 1989. Okay. Just before 5 o'clock p.m. It's the South American Qualifier. It's the South American Qualifiers for the 1990 World Cup at the Maracana Stadium in Rio de Janeiro. The match is between Brazil and Chile. I'm pronouncing it Chile because that's how you're supposed to pronounce it, but it makes it sound like I know what I'm doing, and I absolutely do not, but I feel self-conscious about it, but I'll still say it. We appreciate that. Kind of like an art teacher in high school, where it's like, have you ever been to Chile or Brazil? So in this match that I'm telling you about, it's about to take place. It's going to take place in Brazil. Brazil has the advantage, they have the home field advantage, but also Brazil In the soccer world, football, as the rest of the entire globe calls it, in football, Brazil is a powerhouse. The kids play with a smaller, heavier ball as they grow up. So by the time they get to the bigs or even the mids, they are faster and sharper and better at soccer. I didn't know that. And Brazil is where Pele is from, who's the greatest, many believe the greatest of all time. Basically, Chile is going into this the underdog just because Brazil is like the Yankees of football. Got it. Do not write in. No one cares how right or wrong I am. We don't care. Thank you. It's just slightly defensive about how much I don't know about what I'm talking about. OK, so Brazil has won the World Cup five times, more than any other country. But the Chilean fans still have faith their team could beat the odds, thanks in no small part to their 32-year-old captain. And the goalkeeper, Roberto Rojas, Robert the Red, he is ready to do whatever it takes to get his team to the World Cup. And that ambition will lead to one of the most notorious incidents in South American sports history. I think I know what you're going to say. This is the story of the 1989 Brazil versus Chile World Cup qualifiers. Is this the wrong goal story? There's a lot of elements to this story. Can you see it? What? Are there waves coming? I'm having the hugest hot flash right now. You were like, he's how angry I am. Can you see how much I love football? Oh, no. OK, so the main sources used for today's story are an episode of ESPN's 3430 podcast, not 30 by 30, the measurements that I once said that show was entitled by. Also, a 2025 episode of BBC's Sporting Witness podcast and an article by a writer named Daniel Edwards at a little website called goal.com. And the rest of those sources are in our show notes. So there's already been drama between Brazil and Chile before the playoff match that I'm talking about. Two years before 1987, they went up against each other in an early round of a tournament called the Copa America, which is between all the Southern American men's national football teams. Brazil is the favorite to win once again. But when they go head to head with Chile, Chile ends up beating them in a stunt. Stunning 4-0 upset. Oh, shit. So the goalie of Chile's team, Roberto Rojas, plays a flawless game. He does not let a single goal get by him, which is no small feat. As journalist Daniel Alarcon puts it, quote, quite frankly, goalkeepers are insane. A good goalkeeper has a certain amount of disregard for his or her own safety. They live on the edge. Yeah, terrifying. So scary. So over his decade long career, Rojas has done just that. Gaining respect with his passion, fearlessness, and athleticism that he plays with. Let's take a picture. Yes, please. There he is, superstar of Chile football. He's been caught up in a couple noteworthy scandals, though, from earlier in his career. One involved him lying about his age so he could participate in youth tournaments. It's odd. And another involving doping. Pretty standard scandals for football players. But he is, despite that, a national hero. The fans call him El Condor because condors are the national symbol of Chile. We're going to learn a lot today. Okay. And they kind of think he looks like a condor, but it's all a form of respect. Yeah. So basically when Chile goes and whips Brazil's ass at the Copa America in 1987, his national icon status is truly cemented. And ultimately Chile places second in that tournament. Hmm. They. The country have appeared at the World Cup several times. Their best run was in 1962, this is Chile, when they came in third place. But now this World Cup tournament in 1990 that's going to be in Italy, this feels like it's their big chance. It's the final days of the brutal military dictatorship of Pinochet. It's a time of major political and social upheaval in the country. Soccer matches have become places where impassioned Chileans can express their national pride, on a global stage. So there's a lot in it for them. The 1989 World Cup qualifiers have Chile and Brazil face off again. They play two games in this qualifier. The first one takes place in Santiago on August 13th at the city's national stadium. It's called National Stadium. It's nearly at capacity. The crowd is riled up. Look how big the stadium is. Just to give you the sense of. Holy shit. It's Super Bowl size and level. I mean, obviously we know this, but. Yeah. The rest of the world's football is our football. Wow. With different shaped balls. So all those people going crazy. Normally, both football teams playing that day come out of that tunnel and onto the field together, mostly so that riled up fans don't throw shit at the opposing team, right? So if they're both there, nobody throws anything. And so that is just basically standard play for these qualifiers. But on this day, before Brazil is ready to go, team captain Roberto Rojas just has his team go out first. He leads them out onto the field without Brazil, forcing Brazil to walk into this packed stadium alone. It's an explicit break from protocol. It's meant to rattle Brazil in a crucial pregame moment. But it's also part of a larger mentality that Chilean journalist Danilo Diaz shorthands as, quote, which means more bandits than the bandits. Which is basically, they're going to fuck with you, so fuck with them first. That's kind of the motto in podcasting. Not all teams of this era are of this Machiavellian mindset where the end justifies the means. But some do. And in ESPN's 30 for 30 podcast, they cite a few stories about various Latin American clubs accused of allegedly doing these moves. Some have been accused of allegedly drugging their opponents. Holy shit. I mean, not to you. Yeah, right. For your podcast. That's a good one. I have a question. They've also been accused of covertly photographing these players in compromising situations with sex workers, then blowing those pictures up and hanging them around the arena before the case starts. Wow, that is vicious. It's fucking insane. Wow. Some club managers have been accused of releasing, a small dog onto the pitch when the team is ahead to basically run down the clock. Oh, jeez. That's the third in that list, the least bad. Yeah. But it's all dirty play, and the list goes on and on. So, Roberto's move of walking out without the Brazilian team, you know, is kind of that muscling that they do. And it definitely sets a palpable feeling of hostility in the stadium that, of course, it's even before gameplay. Once the game starts, that tone increases dramatically. So, now we're just a minute and a half into the game when a Chilean midfielder aggressively tackles a Brazilian player and injures him. Somehow, that Chilean player only gets a yellow card, which is the official warning card. But then, as the injured Brazilian player is being taken off the field, a fight breaks out between other players and someone else is injured. And this time, a Brazilian player is given a red card, which means he is now kicked out of the game. Afterward, that Brazilian player will tell reporters, quote, "I didn't hit him that hard." So, it just started with a bit of violence. Around minute 14, the Chilean player who got the yellow card tries to trip a Brazilian midfielder. And when he realizes he is going to get carded again, which probably means he's going to get red carded, he tries to intimidate the ref. So, then a Brazilian player steps in to defend the ref, while several Chilean players grab their teammate, try to get him to calm down, try to get him to come over to the bench, basically. And they are all worried he's becoming a liability. So, it's a pretty even match between the two teams and the goalie, Roberto Rojas, is playing a near perfect game. He defends shot after shot made by Brazil. By halftime, the score is 0-0, which is a very big deal when teams are playing against Brazil. Just to keep them from scoring is, yeah, because you can end in a tie and you can end. Just keep them from scoring and get one more than them, and that's all you need to do. I just explained all sports. But 11 minutes into the match's second half, things take a turn when a Chilean defender near the goal. So, basically, Roberto Rojas, the goalie, is back here by the goal box. And nearby, another Chilean player needs to basically kick the ball down there so they can go start playing on the other end of the field. But like you anticipated. Sorry. Yeah. When he goes to do this. No, because it's famous. He goes to do it, and instead of sending it, he hits the back of his own player. And it bounces off that guy's leg and goes into the fucking net. So, he scores on his own team. He scores on his own team for Brazil. I only know about this because of Vince explaining it to me, and it's just. It's a nightmare. Yeah. And, of course, now there's already hostility and bad vibes in the stadium. People go nuts. So, he does that on his own home team. Field with an audience full of. Nightmare. Like, hardcore fans. Tensions are high. Now this gigantic mistake from the underdog team. Now that I know you're doing this story, I can't believe it. This is so fucked up. Yeah, that's great. I love it, yeah. Okay, it's an accidental assisted goal for Brazil. As I said, the bad vibes go from bad to rotten. The score is now 1-0 Brazil. But is it the fault of the guy who kicked it or the guy who ricocheted off of? The kicker. But he, okay, he kicked it to his. To his guy. I mean, like, who knows? It's nobody's fault. I literally have watched four soccer games and without a pause, I'm like, it's the fault of the man with the leg. How do I know? I played soccer as a kid. Oh, I swear. I love orange slices. I think it's like, I would say primary kicker because he was supposed to kick it up and far. And then he just kicked it straight over to that guy. Nightmare. So now there's just seven minutes left in the game. And another bizarre thing happens. Oh, no. After a Brazilian foul, Chile is given a free kick, right? The underdogs. Have a chance. You can fucking even it up. As long as you don't lose with that point. Yes. Everyone will be fine. Just clear, clear it. But when the Brazilian players hear that Chile's being given a free kick, all the Brazilian players on the field, including their goalie, get furious. And they start arguing and confronting the refs and going crazy that this is not fair. And as they're doing that, a Chilean player that's near the ball realizes they never called time. And he very subtly passes the ball to a teammate who then just kicks it straight into the goal. It is legal play. And they make that point. Holy shit. Yes. So Chile gets the goal. So we're one to one. We're one to one. Everything's going to be fine. So isn't that insane? That is so bananas. They actually review it and it's decided it's declared legal. Because they didn't yell like timeout or whatever. I mean, they must have, right? So the game ends in a tie one to one. Phew. Well, the crowd, they were growing pissed off before. But now the game's over. No one's satisfied. It's like both teams lost to them, essentially. So as the teams walk off the field, the fans just start throwing. They throw batteries. They throw rocks. They throw anything they can. Was it battery and rock night? It was. At the soccer game? B-Y-O-B or R. Perfect. You just hand them out when you walk in. Who's got all those batteries? Battery night at Dodger Stadium. They said, well, it was like, you know, it was 1990. So there's people with radios. Radios, yeah. But still, it's just a little battery. I love that they're like, I'm not throwing my radio. I'm taking my fucking battery out. That's right. Honey, give me your purse. Later on in the locker room, a reporter calls Roberto out for fanning the flames of the fan hostilities by leaving Brazil in the tunnel when they were walking out. Uh-oh. And Roberto responds by saying, quote, man, we have to use everything we can to win. Okay. So there's another game left between these two teams. So they have a final kind of chance to reverse this. Both teams do. Okay. According to the way the point system works in the World Cup qualifiers, Chile has to win by at least one goal to stay in the running to play in the World Cup. Okay. They just need to get a point. They need to get a point. One more point than the other game. One more point. Which is how you win. Everything. Now we're back where we started. It's September 3rd, 1989. Okay. We're in Rio de Janeiro. We're at the Maracana Stadium. The energy could not be more different. Than it was in Santiago. The vibes are great. It's described later as a 150,000-person party with a mostly Brazilian crowd. They're all wearing the country's colors. They have tambourines. They have little drums. They're shooting off flares. They're shooting off fireworks in the stands. And they're all hot. So it's just a great time. We're all hot, as in, like, good-looking. Yeah, we're in Brazil. We were. It's true. So the match begins. And, like, probably every other team on Chile, Roberto. The goalie is playing like his life depends on it. He blocks shot after shot from the Brazilian offenders. The crowd's keyed up. They're cheering when Brazil launches balls towards Chile's goal because it's home team. And when Roberto blocks it, they jeer and they boo. And it doesn't matter. It doesn't shake him. At halftime, the score is still 0-0, which is huge for Chile. They are preventing Brazil from scoring. But if they tie, then Brazil wins. Right. Yeah. Okay. It's like a sudden. It's like a sudden death situation. Got it. Got it. So less than five minutes into the second half, a shot finally gets past Roberto. Brazil scores. The stadium erupts in cheers. Doesn't let up. It's now 1-0 Brazil. Okay. So everyone, of course, is locked on this gameplay. As the Chileans now have the ball, they're driving it down the field. Some are looking toward their end where Roberto Rojas is standing in the goal box. When a flare suddenly comes down out of the audience. And falls onto the field. What? Like near him. It lands in a plume of smoke that just seems to swallow him whole. Dumbledore? Is it Dumbledore? Is it Job from Arrested Development? After a moment, the smoke clears and the crowd looks in horror as they watch Roberto Rojas writhing around on the ground in pain, clutching his bloody face. Oh my God. I didn't know this. He's immediately carried off the field and into the locker room. I think we have a picture of the flare falling onto the field during the game. Some drunk person just, holy shit. Yeah. It's like a firework. Yeah. And then we have photos, of course, of him being carried off, bloody being carried off the field. Oh shit. That's him down there. And you can see the blood from this side. God, that's violent. It's crazy. So they get him into the locker room and they find a one and a quarter inch gash across his forehead. In protest of what seems like a blatant. attack on their captain by a crazed fan, the Chile players refuse to continue this game. Brazil, meanwhile, is stunned. They have no idea what's happened. They know it's serious. And they also know that this happening could hand Chile the automatic win. Right. So in the aftermath of the game's abrupt ending, many Chileans are, of course, furious. So it's another one of these weird endings where it's all of a sudden we're just in this insane medical problem and no one really knows what's going on. Mm-hmm. Some of the Chileans even go protest outside of the Brazilian embassy in Santiago when they go back home. Well, aren't the Brazilians pissed too, though? Because they were going to win, you know. Well, they don't know what's going on. So they don't. They think that maybe they're a fan of theirs is who did this. Right. Like through this flare. Okay. Right. That it was kind of an attack. Yeah. And so they're just kind of not sure what to do about it. But Chile is like, you have attacked our player. You did this on purpose. Right. There's a lot of emotion on the Chileans. But there's healthy speculation and suspicion about what happened on the Brazilian side. Many onlookers are wondering how a flare would result in the laceration instead of resulting in burns. Roberto has no burns. He's insisting the injury was a result of that flare. And there is no evidence anything different happened. How would he know that was going to happen? And then, like, it's not like he's a wrestler who has, like, a fucking razor blade in his shit. Yeah, up his sleeve. Right. Exactly. So even though hundreds of cameras are present at the match that day, it's initially thought they were all pointed down toward the opposite end of the field. Until, within hours, a photographer named Ricardo Alfieri comes forward saying that during the game, he saw the flare out of the corner of his eye, and he whipped around and snapped five shots as the flare fell to the ground. Oh, shit. And his undeveloped photos get shopped around. He basically goes and shops them to all the places. He goes to Brazilian newspapers, and a newspaper called O Globo is the one who gets them, buys them. And in the middle of the night, calls the head of their photo lab. She's fast asleep at home. They say, get in here and develop these pictures for us. It is unclear how much Alfieri is paid. I want to know. ESPN says it's around $5,000. In 1989? 89. 89, 5,000. Today is 10,000? 13,000. Shit. Close, though. But. No one attempts to translate it in Brazilian money, so we don't know. Sure, that's the reason. We can just assume that it's. He got a bunch of money, much higher than the going rate. Right. So, these five photographs run in the O Globo newspaper the next morning in full color. Oh, my God. And they clearly show this flare landing several feet behind Roberto Rojas, making no contact with him. What? Then, him throwing his body into the plume of smoke, and then. Basically, becoming a part of it. There's no contact between this flare and Roberto Rojas, and these photos, like, show that very clearly. But he's not even close to it. It's back there, and he's claiming that the cut is on his forehead. Right. And then, basically, the pictures go that he throws himself into the flare. Holy shit. And then there's blood, right? So, now everyone thinks it's in the newspaper. So, now everyone thinks it's an elaborate stunt. Oh, shit. When police track down the person who set off the flare. Yeah. They find out it's a young Brazilian fan in her 20s named. We're not sure about the pronunciation of this fan's name, but we think it's Rosanary Mayo. So, setting off flares was very common at football games in South America, or at least, you know, firecrackers and flares, whatnot, in the 80s. They would do it a lot. Hers just happened to be the one that hit the field. She pointed it towards the field? Well, toward the field, but not toward a person. Right. So, she's eventually. cleared of any involvement in like a conspiracy to injure Rose. But in a weird twist, the public interest around her becomes so intense, she basically becomes an overnight celebrity for setting the flair. And a few months later, in November of the same year, she's on the cover of Brazilian Playboy. I told you everyone was hot at this game. Right. She's basically identified as the Americana fireworks girl. Wow. She went viral before going viral as viral. She's like, I'm in this too. But in the end, the investigators conclude Roberto's gash was self-inflicted. Fuck. What did he like hit his head on the ground or something? Basically, he saw the flair drop. Yeah. And then he opportunistically was like, he basically was going to injure himself. And then basically he thought the flair is the perfect excuse to be injured. But basically, he doesn't talk about any of this. He keeps his mouth shut. FIFA, which is the international football. Governing body declares Chile the match losers and advances Brazil to the 1990 World Cup. And then months later, after investigating FIFA, hands Roberto a lifetime ban from competition. The team Chile is fined $31,000. And that's how much in today's money? Fifty six thousand dollars. Eighty thousand dollars. Holy shit. Yeah. So basically, Roberto finally has to come clean. And he reveals he slashed himself. What? What? With a razor blade that he'd hidden in his goalie gloves. Oh, shit. Before the match began. What? He's just waiting for a moment to do this. He basically had a backup so that in case it was needed, this could take place because they knew that, you know, like the dirty play was going to happen. Yeah. Anything could happen. They had to be ready. Idea. Got it. But you ended up being the dirty player. And bad dirty. Yeah. Shit. He basically. He basically says that the idea of doing this was like an insurance policy idea that was lingering in his head or even an escape hatch to get Chile out of matches that had taken a downward turn. And he didn't act alone. The Chilean head coach and team doctor were also in on this scheme. Dude. So in an interview later, Roberto tells a newspaper, quote, I cut myself with a razor and the farce was discovered. It was a cut to my dignity. And this all. Runs under the headline. I'm guilty. So he genuinely seems remorseful, which might explain why in 2001 FIFA rescinds that lifetime ban. And Roberto Roja goes on to coach goalies in, of all places, Brazil, shepherding a new generation of soccer players. And later he becomes a well-known sports pundit in South America. Despite everything, he's in his 60s now. He is a beloved sports legend. And in Chile, he's a hero to many fans in Brazil, too. He lives there. He coaches there. His wife, Vivian, has told CNN, quote, here in Brazil, Roberto has always been loved. The most important thing for Brazilians is that he has, in his interviews, come across as a human being with a very distinct and good character. And he has admitted his guilt and been forgiven. Yeah. Take responsibility for your bullshit instead of doubling down with a bunch of fucking lies. And being like, hey, how about we talk about the insane pressure that sports puts on the players and the staff to win no matter what at all costs. And that's the story of the Condor, Roberto Rojas. Wow. Yeah. He fucking cut himself like a wrestler, like a professional wrestler. Just exactly like how you described it. Wow. Yeah. That's right. I wonder how many, like, how many times that's actually happened and not gotten found out. Well, what's funny. The funny thing is, too, and I think it's also the sweet part of the World Cup having such a profound, beautiful effect on this country, is we can celebrate and enjoy sports without being emotionally invested. Therefore, without beating the shit out of our, the opposing team's fans in the parking lot or something like that. Yeah. And instead, enjoy, like, the show of the show. And suddenly, you know, and maybe it's too general, but I think it's true for American male culture. Yeah. You get to be. You get to be there and enjoy the fun and the partying and the drinking and the hoo-ha without turning a bus over and lighting it on fire. Because you just are, like, that's enabling the people in Lawrence, Kansas to fully support the Albanian team like they even know what's going on. They're just like, oh, no, we're Albanians now because you're here practicing in our town. Wow. It's really lovely. But, I mean, this, the other side of sports is that thing where you're just, it's win no matter what. Yeah. No matter the cause. No matter the cause. Yeah, for sure. And putting your own pride in whether that team wins or not. How about a little pride and honesty, for fuck's sake? Why is that so hard? Wow. Well, great job. That was a wild one. I had never heard that before. Crazy, right? Yeah. Hey, have you ever done anything like that? Let us know. Hey, have you ever pulled a razor blade out of your goalie glove to make other people feel bad? Write it in at MyFavoriteMurder at Gmail for our hometown episodes. Hey, Karen and Georgia, my name is Stone Cold Steve. And I've pulled a number like this a time or two. Wow. Great job. Thank you. Crazy couple stories. Right? Epic one, I think. This show has a summertime vibe to it of like, okay, you're going to tell me that story. Now I'm going to tell you something. It truly has nothing to do with anything. In the meantime, I'll take a fucking martini that skates. Okay. So this batch of honking hoorays is brought to you by Hyundai. Thank you, Hyundai. Are you ready to do this? Yeah, you go first. Okay. The title is hooray and it says, my hooray is my 63 year old mother. She was raised in the mountains of Maine with a high school education. She built a career in a male dominated field, raised me after my dad passed away when I was six. Made sure to take care of my mental health during that time. Endured a decades long marriage. That's how it was written. Got it. Endured a decades long marriage and has just been promoted to director reporting directly to the C suite of a nationwide company. She sacrificed so much for everyone around her and somehow still managed to raise a take no shit daughter. I'm in awe of her grit, her persistence, and this well earned accomplishment. Hooray for the glass ceiling breaking mama's proud murderino daughter. Hell yeah. That's a hooray to start off with. That's beautiful. Yeah. This is from McNeil Colleen on Instagram. It says, my hooray is that at age 43. I started tap dancing. Nice. I had never danced a day before in my life. Signed, Gregory Hines. That's the oldest joke I could possibly have made. That was a good one. That was a really old one. I get it, I got you. Congratulations, tap dancer, whoever you are. This one is from Slither Ann from Instagram. It says, I stepped into the Atlantic Ocean for the first time at age 40. It was amazing. Wow. Yeah. Let's go do that right now. The Atlantic is a little further away. That's right. Okay, this one, this one's really funny. This is from another Colleen. It says, my hooray is that at 37, I picked up rock tumbling as a hobby. Nice. I bought my seven-year-old a rock tumbling kit for his birthday last summer. He lost interest in the first few days, but I've been hooked ever since. My husband often gently asks me what I plan to do with all these rocks, and I tell him to mind his own business. Nice. I now have two rock tumblers going at all times, lots of polished rocks, and many more waiting to get their turn. Each group of rocks takes between five to eight weeks to complete. And here are some photos of the rocks. Oh, my God, I think that's a highly valuable rock right there. Amethyst? Two rock tumblers going, I mean. Serious business. Answer the question. Your husband asked a very valid question. What are you going to do with all those rocks? This one is from Kendall S. from the fan cult. And Kendall's just saying, I took my 10-year-old twins to their first concert, Florence and the Machine. Hell, yes. Wow. That's a huge one for-- what was your first concert? My first real concert was Shane's Addiction at the Hollywood Bowl. Oh, OK. What about yours? My first real concert was Chicago at the Cow Palace, I believe. Were you a 60-year-old businessman? I was just like a freshman, and then someone's parents got tickets. And I was like, sure. Why not? Well, let's go see a 10-man band. Thank you again to Hyundai for letting us do these honking hoorays. We love them. We love them. We love to celebrate you. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? Ah. This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producer is Molly Smith, and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Liana Squalacci. Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin. Email your hometowns to [email protected]. And follow the show on Instagram @myfavoritemurder. Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix. And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the Remind Me buttons. That's the best way you can support our show. Goodbye. Don't let this year go untraveled. Right now, Cheap Caribbean is giving you $200 off all-inclusive vacay packages to your favorite beach destinations. So put those vacation days to good use and trade your every day for sunny skies, sandy toes, and more beach. Get $200 off site-wide and make that beach vacay happen. 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