#535 - Andre Gray | You Don’t Know sh*t… And That’s Your Advantage

[MUSIC] >> All right, Andre Gray, thanks for joining. Welcome to the Breaking and Entering Outro, it has a podcast. Excited to talk with you. The whole thing here is to figure out how you broke in the ad industry, what you're doing today, and your best advice for the next generation. How does that sound? >> It sounds good. >> Cool. >> Cool. Have thoughts already. >> Okay, what gets you most excited about that? >> Well, I think it depends if you want to start at the beginning, or if you want to start at the end. >> We go wherever you want, whatever gets you fired up the most. >> Right. The end is what advice I would give to the next generation, because I think that's different from how I got here, and I think that's the moment we're in, and I think that's really important. I have a lot of peers, there's a lot of leaders, that say thing. I want to make the agency that I always wanted to work at. Okay, so you're 52, right? I'm not 52, but this type of person, that's not what that guy actually thinks, it's an actual person. So the agency that you didn't like that you worked at, right, what age were you? 28, 32. So that's, you know what I mean? Like the industry that the agency you wanted to work at, that's in your brain, that industry doesn't exist. Right, so if you're breaking anything to advertising, it has to be breaking and entering, and to advertising in 20, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, because the advice doesn't make sense. They can't be breaking into advertising in 2012. Right, for example, it's like, it used to be like you studied it or you found your way, you discovered that you liked it, and then you made a portfolio, you picked Art Director, Copywriter, a Comperson Strategy person, you picked one of those roles, you built a portfolio, got internship, and then you broke into a big traditional agency, and you're working on, you know, television, print, radio, maybe some social, but that's like the Bretton Butter, right? Like you know some people, you find an Ogle V, or a Havas, or whatever agencies you like, a Leo Bernat, if you're in Chicago area, like I grew up. So you're saying that, what are you saying? Like is that not the same route today? - I'm not even at the route, I'm just at the industry. - Okay. - Right, so the industry existed historically to solve certain problems, right? And people had communications problems, they had new products, they had R&D, they had new businesses launching, and you had people in consumers that had first a very ubiquitous experience, right, going all the way back to like the Marshall McCluein, Medium is the message, kind of, you know, you invent TV, and there's four TV channels, and you can go on, you know, that's a night show and see everybody, and I think for the bulk of the last 15, 20 years, it was changing, but today, we are four people in this room, I don't know if we're assuming the room, but, or four people in this room, you guys, the three of you talk every day, I assume, I promise you do not live on the same internet, for sure, right? And like, you assume that you see the same things, but you don't, because there is so much information, that even the subtle nuances between what you see create a fabric of what you understand the internet to be, to be super different. And like, until we have a better conversation about what people are actually consuming from a media content perspective, 'cause, well, how do you figure out where you're gonna eat lunch, right? 'Cause like, what I see on the internet, dictates what I listen to, it dictates what I eat, it dictates what I do, it dictates how I live, it dictates how I think about my relationships, right? If you're doing everything, then fuck in, red pill, Andrew Tate, Sneak O's side of the world, like, you're gonna think a different way, than if you're deep in another side of the world, right? And I'm not promoting any of that, but my point is, I don't think as an industry one, we on the agency side are catching up fast enough to the fact that our clients' problems are changing dramatically. And so, what you're breaking and entering into, like, advertising will not exist the way it exists today, in two years, because it doesn't exist today, the way it existed four years ago. Totally. And so that's the thing, right? Because you have to chase two things, I think, if you're gonna break in. On the one hand, you have to chase the objective truth and the real skills you need to actually answer the question. That is, I have a client that needs to sell a thing to a person that neither of us will ever meet. And how do we do that? But, I think today more than ever, you also have to chase another thing, which is, how do I get the people that already work in the industry that I don't think are being honest enough with themselves about how different this is than what they're used to doing. Get them to feel you understand you, relate to you, and then give you a shot. Right? Like, now you have it. Now your job is fucked. It's like, it's like, you have two jobs. Yeah, totally. So, can you give me an example then of, like, maybe how you've gone through this even as a C-suite executive, where you understand both this, the new framework here, and, you know, but how have you convinced even clients? Like, this is the way to go. 'Cause I think it's a hard one to point to, specifically because it's kind of like everything everywhere all at once. Like, it all happens at the same time. But when I look at what, compare like ESPN to overtime, right? Like, overtime is born from culture and the internet and content and births accelerates things like 6,7 and all types of stuff. Objectively, truthfully, right? They have 110 million collective followers or something like that, whatever. They started a basketball, all this stuff. So, are they having attention? Yes, are they being successful? Yes. But if I'm at legacy media agency, right? And media agency and then client, right? So it's like, truth media agency client. If I'm at a media agency, do I understand overtime? I would give you like a hard maybe, you know? If I'm at a client, do I understand overtime? Even less. Yeah, for sure. So when I'm the media agency and I'm trying to sell to my client an effective solution, I'm gonna have an easier time selling ESPN than overtime. But it's actually overtime is more true than ESPN. Listen, I like that you're talking about this a lot because if you think about breaking entering media compared to ad age or ad week, it's kind of similar to the overtime versus ESPN, the traditional legacy outlets that maybe like these agencies or these people probably understand a lot clearly because they've been around for 100 years ad age and ad week but they probably don't understand breaking entering media. Right, so we're brand new. Right, and we're social first and we're different. Right, and that's the thing, right? So you're working against more of an objective truth because when you step out into the world and your internet, you see real life as it exists now and as it exists tomorrow, right? 'Cause you're also in a more youthful place, right? Because unfortunately, yes, you can have a forward thinking CMO or a forward thinking person running an agency but these people are old. So if you have like, I think it's tough when you start having agency folks that are social media experts and you have 1000 followers and you follow 4,000 people. If you're an expert, why won't you apply that to yourself? Right, right, right. - Right, I can come in and say, I'm a style expert, I don't say that but I think I look pretty stylish. - You do. You know what I'm saying? - So you put your money in your walk. - Right, I'm not gonna sit here and I'm a basketball expert. I play professional basketball. That's it, I went and did the thing and so I think that's the difficulty because I think if I'm telling someone how to break it into, right, you know, I teach at St. John's at the grad school, I have a non-profit, so I spend a lot of time thinking about how do I set people up to make things easier because to be honest, like my story, which is the short version of it was, I graduated, I went to Amherst College, I had decided when I was a sophomore, I started out trying to be an orthopedic surgeon and I was like, yo, this is gonna take too long. Not that I couldn't do it, but I was like, this is gonna take too long. I need to go to the doctor. do something. So I kind of had, do your surgeons are like likely to be replaced by AI? I was like, I heard that in a podcast is like with like the hands that they're going to be creating. It's like they're going to have like perfect surgeons to we're going to we're going to replace everything and nothing with AI. The question is trust. Yeah. Are you going to trust the robot to do the things? Are you going to trust a human? So maybe the surgeon doesn't touch you, but the surgeon's still going to have to I'll tell you what girl it's going to be. Sorry to derail, but you think about San Francisco. Like when I got into a driverless car and like that's the norm, like I would have never thought I would have trusted that. But like that's pretty wild. I don't I don't love it. But it seems like people are just like people are just trusting it. Well, because we're all going to you know the bell curve is the bell curve, right? So the the late majority and early majorities like have to shift with how fast the early adopters and innovators move in it just like the natural curve has to move. So you're going to adopt. But so back to how I got you know, you're good. Back to how I got into this. So orthopedic surgeon didn't you didn't go that route. Yeah. So I decided, okay, I watched a PBS special called the the persuaders and it was all about the power persuasion and advertising and political whatever you can look at it. It's kind of cool. And I was like, look, all right, I'm smart. I like people. I can understand this. And in the worst case scenario, I work in advertisers for a little bit and I will. And I'll know how business works and I'll know how to convince people of things. That seems like good skills that I can translate to other things, whether I want to be a lawyer or a doctor at another point or whatever. Graduate, move back to San Francisco. No fucking traction. I'm watching people who suck at jobs all around me. I'm working freelance. It's not really moving. So much so I moved to France to go from being a native English copywriter in San Francisco to being a native English copywriter in Paris. So that sucked. I was great. Why Paris? I went to French school as a kid. And so I had I had a homey who lived out there and I was simultaneously trying to play professional basketball. So I ended up sleeping on my friends couch for like seven months. So but I say all that to say I don't that can't be someone's path. I don't think that's their path. I think if I put myself in the shoes of a 20 year old who let's assume you're a 20 year old who went to a major college, right? Because if you went to I went to Amherst College as a question. It's like a little bit different, but in a little more niche. But let's say I went to a big college. I can get an entry level job if I can finesse it and figure it out. I had a holding company or an agency. Okay. That's going to be hard to do, but we can try. But also I most likely am one or two degrees separation from a friend of mine from school that makes 10 to 100,000 dollars a month. Right? Like by inevitability of the internet, right? Like they might not be your home, but like that's your friends friend. Yeah. Yeah. And so you're, you know, when you look at, you know, and you're in the emerging media, like you can go on YouTube, you can see like what are kids at USC talking about? And then they'll just I'm starting this business. I'm starting that business. I'm being a concert. And so it's it's hard. I think we have an end. So breaking and entering presumes it's on you who's entering. And I'm like, it's on us who are here. We got to make this thing attractive. Why is it attractive? Why am I taking 40 K a year for the sake of being able to say, I work at Havas, I promise you, most people I talk to have no fucking clue what Havas is. So are we just talking to ourselves or are we going to actually start to get towards the truth? And I think that's the thing that hangs me up. But, but that doesn't mean we can't give advice. And so we can get back to the advice. No, no, but I think we just got established that baseline. So you're saying, so to summarize, you're saying the industry itself needs to do a better job promoting itself to make it attractive for people to go into it. Because there's so many damn options. You can start your own media company. You can start your own clothing line. Why wouldn't you, why wouldn't you take a punt on yourself? If the exchange is I'm going to live in New York at $40,000, $50,000, I got to have nine roommates asleep in a bunk bed. Like it's like, well, I can, I want to vouch because yes, there is low salary when you start, but the cap is pretty high. Like you can keep going. And if you do well, you work hard within a larger agency. There are possibilities to get promotions pretty quickly. Everything's possible for sure. I'm just saying, but to start to even say why would somebody want to bring in this industry, that's what we should talk about. That and to my point is objective truth that moves the culture and the internet, what media agencies know and what media clients know, you walk in with a lot of knowledge here, right? It's the same thing I say to everybody that I'm going to give them advice. I told them this time, my first class on Tuesday. And I said, I'll get you good news and bad news. The bad news is you don't know shit, right? You're going to walk into an interview. You're going to try to make a resume. You're going to try and tell me, well, I know how this, you don't know shit. Let's just relax, right? I don't know shit compared to a person who's 70, right? They just live more shit than me. It's fine. So trying to piece together your internship, you've done when you were in high school and it's like, it's fine. You don't know anything. Also, no one knows anything at work. You've got to be at work at a job to really know what's going on. It's okay. No one knows anything. That's fine. Good news. You know a lot about your own life, about the things you like and about the internet and the things you grew up around, right? Foundationally you understand social media differently better than a person who is 60, right? Because you grew up with it, right? I remember me when I went to my first college visit, I went to Trinity College in Connecticut and they were like, yeah, I don't know. What's going on tonight? I'm going to go on the Facebook. I said, what's that? They were like, we're going to go. It's like this thing. You can use your college email and you see chat with people that are at your school. I was like, that's insane, right? It was still, it was still gated by school. That's wild. Right? Obviously, I'm dating myself, but it's just to say I grew up without it and then with it. And then I watched it grow. So my perspective is quite different for sure from someone even if you were three years more, my senior or three years younger, it would have been foundationally different. Yeah. Right? Because let's say four years for the sake of argument. So I enter into college and it's like, okay, first it's only colleges, then it's everywhere. Then you can, right? If you were four years older, you missed the whole thing. Yep. If you're four years younger, it was already open up big with us and open. So if you went to a place like Amherst College that has five colleges around, you would have connected with all those people quite easily already if you're four years later. Yeah. So I just to say this thing is very dynamic. The problem though with this triptych between objectively what moves kind of media and pop culture and what media agencies know and what the clients know is that you know this. But when you argue with this person or this person who you're breaking and entering into probably a media agency or to the client side, you're going to try to explain them how this works, but they don't know this. But also they're not doing a good enough job. I think especially the agency side acknowledging this. This episode is brought to you by the shipyard, which is a full service marketing and communications agency ladies and gentlemen. They engineer brand love as a measurable business force building brands designed to spark, hold and scale across culture and channels from brand strategy and identity to creative development, digital innovation, media, performance marketing and public relations, the shipyard aligns every discipline to fight apathy and atrophy and create an unshakeable presence over time with coordinated strength across owned earned and paid ecosystems. The shipyard helps brands adapt, endure and perform under pressure. So they are not only seen, but known and returned to at the shipyard brand love is engineered to last delivering integrated marketing advertising and communications built for long term impact. If you want to learn more, visit the shipyard.com where they have coordinated strength and unshakeable results. Right. The clients are probably a little looser because they're going to get the data and they should be like, I don't have any skin in the game because if you completely change the business, like their business doesn't change when the audience and the attention and the media changes because their business is they sell sneakers or you know toothpaste or sneakers or fragrances or whatever. So their business doesn't change how they sell changes. But the business of a media company changes foundationally if I can't just go to JC DeSole or I can't just go to out front media or I can't just go to Disney or ESPN. Now I got to really ramp up my education and And I think, it's probably the hottest take of this whole thing. Somebody takes what you take. I think that the way in which this is changing so dynamically, I think is putting actually everyone in a really similar bucket to black people. And that's a hot, that's the-- Let's get far. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's bring it up. But so I think-- and I'll go back to the beginning. I was a black studies major in Armas College. I talk about this from participant observation from my own life, but also academically. America is the biggest exporter of popular culture. The most American thing export is black culture, because it is a culture that is born from a collective lack of heritage. When you trans-eglennically slave people, you cut them off from their collective past. So they have to create a new culture that is in common experience. That culture has born the blues. It's born pop music. It's born a whole bunch of other stuff, right? Stuff we love, right? Fashion, whatever. When black people-- and again, it's not exclusive to black people, but I can talk about black people's, because I'm a black people's-- when black people enter into these agency spaces, they're like, wait a minute. I know inherently in myself, this is going to hit. I don't remember listening to Kirk, frankly, necessarily, when I was five. But I just kind of soaked up the sauce in my experience. And I can't really explain to you why this is going to hit. So now I'm in a media company or an agency or a client. And I'm trying to explain to you something that I'd inherently understand. I don't necessarily have the articulation to understand, because I didn't spend my life necessarily trying to figure out how to explain it to someone. I spent my life just observing it and knowing it, right? And the things that make it hit are in the subtleties and in nuance and in differences. So when you think about what you're explaining to someone as an emerging new media versus a legacy media, and they're like, why would I go with you instead of something else? And you're like-- because you get it in yourself and you live it. But it's not something you have the tools or frameworks or strategies or decks to explain. I know. We just had this situation. We were just trying to talk to a potential client, work with us. And they're like, can you send the analytics and stuff? I'm like, it just vibes. You just kind of-- It just worked with us. We're dopper than the traditional outlets. Most people, we feel like most people should understand this. We're now getting better at it. OK, well, here's the data points. Here's the reasons. Here's some past experiences. So anecdotal stuff. You kind of learn the persuasion of what that person is expected to hear to make them happier to close the deal. But I'm still learning this, too. So what advice? Like, how do we-- I mean, that's the thing. The first thing is acknowledging what you're facing. Because, again, the objective truth needs to be translated into a language that this person understands or this person understands. The translation is so important. And that's the thing, right? So it's awareness of the gap. And then you have to translate it and kind of explain yourself in a way that they understand. Right. Yeah. Which is twofold, right? Because translation is obviously-- it's an intention and impact, right? I could say whatever I want. I start speaking French and you don't speak French, then I have no impact. I have a lot of intention. I do have an impact. You're probably like, this dude's rude. He's like, why is he talking to me in another language? I don't get it. Whatever. Maybe yet. But also, the onus is as much on you as it also can be on the people who are receiving to acknowledge the fact that there is a gap. And they're trying to understand something that-- because I don't think that's enough of the conversation. Like-- It's on us, you're saying. I'm saying, I don't get it. Right? I was on a panel with the guy two years ago. And then I forget. He's like, Gen Z. No one gets him. Am I right? And I'm like, no, that's your fucking kid, bro. That's crazy. Just because you can't figure out how to walk downstairs and talk to your 11 year old, because you're just being a weirdo, just be normal. Like, just be normal. It's not-- You know what I'm saying? Just act like a human, respect the person. I'm not coming to you and saying, oh, you've got a new podcast. I don't care about your podcast, because it needs to be like this. And in my experience, in my career, I went to France. You got to go to France to break in and-- That's silly. Yeah. Because the circumstances aren't the same. And so the mutual respect has to be there. It doesn't mean that there's not legacy experience, someone 15, 20 years in experience. They have a lot of experience of a lot of things. But that's what I love about sports, just to pivot for a second. But it's like, sports is so about objective truth. If I win a game today, and I play you again, back to back, it does not matter how I won today. But I play you tomorrow. I still need to win tomorrow. I can be experienced coach. There might also be the lack of experience, you know what I mean? Like they talk about, who was it? Like quarterback gets injured, for example. Superb was coming up. Oh, I can't prep for a guy who I never-- There's no tape on him. Right? He's brand new. Right? So again, that could accidentally be a positive. But it's not about saying automatically the legacy and the experience. And I know things. And that's my stance. It's saying, I know things could be good. I don't know shit could also be good. How do we win? And I think that's where we need to all get on the same page. How do we win? How do we win? And it's equally on both sides. Now, all that being said, what you need to do, I think at the end of the day, better or worse, we're in a time where people are fried, and not in the Gen Z sense, I think that just means-- Yeah, like in the literal. Burnt out? Just the agita level is very high. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like we are used to a high level agita, because we live in New York. So if we lived somewhere calmer, like-- it was a calm place. Carmel by the sea, very calm place in California, or whatever. Pick your calm place. You know, Martha's Vineyard, calm place. The difference between New York and Martha's Vineyard from a calmness, frequency of loud sounds, lights, like all of a sudden, everyone in the world who actually like kind of lived in Martha's Vineyard is now living in New York. Just in terms of you wake up every day, a new person guy shot. You just saw someone get shot. Like if you looked at a graph of the amount of times that I've seen a video of a person actually getting shot in my life, and it was like one, and then it was like two. And then it's like, what? It's at 50 every day. I'm like, what the fuck? So it's the agita's high. We're post COVID. So people know that it's kind of more of a vibe to work at home. So you don't want to be in the office. You also want to be restorative in a way that like the kind of grind culture of like the early 2000s is not something people want to accept. So there's a lot of things. So even to be fair to people with truth, people in agencies, people with companies, they all are dealing with the same thing. So I think your job is to find humans that can relate to you because no one knows the answer, because they are, even if they knew the answer, they're probably at a high level of agita anyways. So they want to be able to show up to work, show up to their office, show up on a call, and be like, "Gino, fucking hell bro, I have been talking to some people today. I had 26 Zoom calls back to back." And all these people fucking suck. And I hate them. But I'm excited to talk to you. Oh, I love you. Yeah. Like that's really going to be your best currency is finding the way to be the human that you are and the truth that you are. Because I'm not saying everybody likes me. I can tell from the internet. A lot of people that probably wouldn't like my type of tea. What's wrong with this guy? Why is he cussing? Why does he have gold teeth? Whatever it might be. I need to find people that are like, I'm a sailor cussing, gold teeth, wear a motherfucker. I like him. Yeah. And I think that's my best advice to break and enter is you have unprecedented access to everyone. You go on the internet and do what y'all do best. When I hang out on younger people, I am incredibly amazed. Because they will be like, yo, my sister went on a date this weekend. Oh, who's it do? Oh, it was a guy named Paul where he go to school. He went to pace. In 12 minutes, they would have gotten his Instagram, his freaking MySpace. He wouldn't even alive yet. Just with the first name-- Ali does this. Ali, what are your parameters? What do you need bare middle you need a first name? Right and that's what I'm saying. So when you are sitting there saying we all I'm black, right? Sorry. Hi, what's up? Um, I would love nothing more to be known for what I know that I am, which is top five best in a game, CCO period, not black. But, but if I'm breaking an entering, I also know that I'm going to have so much commonality with another black person across the board. And I'm not saying only do that, but I'm saying when you start looking at it, look for people. So twofold proactively, I'm look for people that are like you, right? You fucking love cello, but you work in media. That's a small band diagram. But they're there. Right. Find the cellist media people there. Conversely, when you have a conversation with someone, you don't have to answer any questions. You need to do two things. You need to pivot the conversation from things you don't know to things you do. Hey, Gino, can you tell me everything about the way that the French language uses conjugation? Well, you know what? That's funny. You asked me that because I'm just passionate about the cello. And so the cello actually uses kind of different tenses if you think about it. And it's duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. Oh, shit. This man, cello, I forgot my question, but you've told me something you know. So one pivot the conversation that things you know and two, create empathy, right? Yeah. Hey, my man got the mustache. I always wanted a mustache, but I didn't really have a mustache, but like a real story. My dad, there's a kind of picture of my dad in the 80s in New York and he had a mustache, but I always been scared to shave my chin here. Now we're now we're now we're the same, right? Right. And those are the two tools that I would give. Like I'm a very, if I was saying the simple summary and not necessarily in that order, I would say start with how do I find out something about the person that I'm talking to, whether I go into that through my research, because y'all got to use your research. And that's real skills. These podcasts and figure out stuff about people before you get there, do your homework. Don't be weird, but find a way to create empathy and relate, relate ability so that they say this person is a person like me. So I want to help them because they want to help themselves because they want the help that they never got. And that's going to be true of everybody, right? And then number two is pivot the conversation that things you know, right? Because you might they might say, damn, bro did not answer a single one of my questions, but they should at least say that was pretty slick that they did that so seamlessly. And they really did talk a lot with a lot of expertise and confidence about the things that they know. So I know that they can go in a room, they can be confident, they could be a self starter. I can trust them with things because at the end of the day, no one knows what they're doing. No one, right? So can they trust you because are they going to give you things to do that they have to then redo? Or are they going to give you things to do that you're going to get done? Yep. And that's just basic humanity. Do I relate to this person? Do I like this person? Can I trust them? I mean, and the broader sense too, you're just a good comms person. You're good communications professional at this point. If you do all this stuff that you're doing, you get advertised, you'll get advertising. You'll figure this stuff out. If you have those skills, which is hard to develop. Takes practice. So I love it. Yeah. What else anything else we can talk about because we're right at time here. You crushed it. I mean, how can people like reach out to you and you're very involved in the industry? Like do you want to talk about the events that you're putting on? Like what you're doing? Yeah. I mean, events, Black Week, you know, Black Week is awesome. I mean, I think it's is born for this is October October. Yeah. Yeah. Second week of October, you know, Black Week is born from the same ethos, right? We have a thesis that culture moves business. And we're here to talk about the elephant in the room, which again, like much of my conversation is the same framework of what's the elephant in the room, right? Like if you if you do something that is going to hit in culture, you do something that respects culture, it's going to have an easier time in the kind of life cycle of fluency and media kind of amplification. How you getting touched with me? I would say Instagram LinkedIn. Honestly, I'm pretty reachable. I would say the vice I get to everyone. You're never annoying anybody. You just got to send them a bunch of messages because like you want to get to it. But like I said, I got to use I got to use turns that I work at temporary because when I say fried, I don't mean like there's like fried and chopped in. Yeah. And and yeah, what's the other one? Right. Yeah. Cook child fried, but they all mean the fried one, but they mean different things. Right. This is right. Yeah. Yeah. Ali is our resident. Yeah. And we love having Ali in the office because she's got a 15 year old younger sister. Okay. So we work. She's insight into any. She's the she's the best. Yeah. And it helps us. Like when you get the word to like when she comes home, we get new terms and new memes and all the stuff that's going on, like trying to understand. See because you're looking in the truth direction. Yeah. But a lot of people are looking in the legacy direction for sure. And I think that's that's the conversation. But also if you have your conversation and you start there, I think people are going to say, damn, at least you fucking understand what's going on. And maybe I asked myself some questions. Yeah. The self awareness is so important. Right. I might not know what the like what Italian brain rot is. Right. Like when that was a big thing. Right. Like I'm going to try to find out. Right. Yeah. Try to understand. And then it's like, how do you translate that or try to get someone else to understand it? And like also just being honest with yourself about how much of that someone is actually going to want to understand or would understand. And that also then just comes down to their humanity, right? Because if I walk in a room and I talk to someone who grew up in Philadelphia, it's highly likely that they like the Eagles. So if I talk to them about the Eagles, they're going to love it. I fucked the Eagles. I don't like the Eagles. But I don't even have to like football to create empathy and have a conversation that they will like. Totally. And I think that's kind of that's the name of it. And when you, it's funny because you use the term comms professional, which is, which is interesting. Everyone has their own terms. And I think that's, that's what you mean by that. It's like how do I relate to people and communicate and articulate clearly? But those are skills that are can be developed, but need to be cherished. Yeah. And are highly valuable. Well, I learned a lot from this. I hope people reach out to you. Okay. Crushed it. Absolutely. Thank you. Appreciate you having me. Nicely done.