Speaker 1Hello, my friends. Welcome back to the James Kennedy podcast. We're doing it again. Another surprise, bonus, totally unplanned episode. I know I'm supposed to be taking a hiatus from podcasting right now to focus on my book, but, you know, if you get offered the opportunity to interview a member of the darkness, what are you going to do? Say, sorry, dude, I'll get back to you in a few months' time? No, you're just going to say, fucking hell yeah, let's do it Tuesday. So that's what I did, and that's what I've done, and that's what you're going to be listening to in about five minutes' time, baby. That is the perk of being your own boss. I can do what the fuck I like. No syndicator, no network, nobody telling me what I can and can't do and when I can and can't do it. I can do what the hell I like when I want to do it. And you lucky listeners get an extra surprise bonus episode straight out of the blue, and who knows, there may be another one coming soon. Or maybe not. Who knows? But what is life without surprises? Loads been happening at this end, man, since the last time we spoke. James Kennedy and the underdogs are officially, performing, baby. That's right, man. We did a headline gig at the Westgate in Newport, our hometown, two weeks ago. And as of this weekend, I've just gotten back from doing a shitload of gigs at the awesome Beautiful Days Festival in Devon. Man, what a weekend we had. I mean, we got there, it was pissing down with rain on the Friday, and within an hour of me arriving, I had to do like a solo acoustic slot for like an hour in the Rebel tent, which was awesome. And then literally a few hours later in the evening, we did a full band set. And it was fucking rammed in there. It was a really, really good like start to the weekend. Few beers and whiskeys were had. All of our gear got absolutely fucking destroyed in the rain. So we had to cart it back to the hotel and take it all apart and literally fucking drain water at the side, inside of our amplifiers and everything, which was a bit worrying. But amazingly, it all still worked. And then we had a day getting pissed and setting it up and watching all the amazing bands that played there. And then Sunday, we had another full band show. And because we had, the one on Friday and I used that as an opportunity to plug the Sunday show. Fuck, it was rammed, dude. Fucking like the people were like queuing outside to get in to see us. It was fucking carnage in there, sweltering hot. And a lot of guys dressed up as the clangers came in and I dragged them in right to the front. So we were kind of like finishing the show with a bunch of dancing fucking mice, human-sized mice at the front of the stage, which was pretty awesome, man. It was a really, really fun show. It was rammed in there. Great vibe. So thanks to everyone that came out to check. And all the new people that we met along the way as well. I was absolutely fucking exhausted after finishing that show, man. It was so hot in there. We gave it our absolute all. And then within half an hour of finishing, I had to moderate a talk about the music industry and streaming with our good friend, Mr. Tom Gray, previously of the podcast. And also previously of the podcast, Mr. Mark Chadwick, singer of The Levelers and also of The Levelers. Mr. Dan Donnelly joined us as well last minute. So that was really interesting. It was still a packed house because we were just following, Mark Chadwick's Sunday solo slot. So everybody was packed out for that one. And that went really, really well as well. But I was juggling two different roles. I was juggling being the front man of a fucking sweaty, loud, sweary rock and roll band. And then Mr. Podcast Mode had to be engaged within 30 minutes of finishing. So that was intense, but it went really, really well. Great talk and really informative. And everybody was on form and on point as you would expect. And then just when you thought it couldn't get any better, we thought, man, we're fucking dominating. We've had four performances of one variety or other over the course of these two days. Just when you thought you couldn't get enough of the underdogs in one festival, I was watching our good friend Skindred from the side of the stage on the main stage. They were standing in for the proclaimers who had to pull out due to illness just before the final headline act of the weekend. The Levelers were playing. So we were watching Skindred and they were absolutely fucking tearing up, as you would expect, as they do. Nobody does it better, man, as the outro track that they do. They performed who says nobody does it better. That band is like, well, fucking unquestionably one of, if not the best fucking live bands in the game right now. They just absolutely, they know what they're doing. And Benji is a master craftsman. Within five minutes of being on stage, just had the whole fucking field in the palm of his hand. We were loving it, right? So we're watching it from the side of the stage. And on the last song, when Skindred do Warning and they do the Newport Helicopter, I'm thinking, oh, here we go. I fucking love this song. And then Benji, the singer, gestures over to me to join him on stage. So I'm thinking, okay, fuck it, let's go. So I run over, grab the mic and yeah, join him for the whole song. And Benji said, do you want to stay and do the helicopter? I was like, well, fucking hell yeah. So I did the Newport Helicopter in front of 17,000 people. That was a great fucking crack and what a great way to go out and finish the, what was a really, really cool weekend. So all in all, not bad for our first two weeks of gigging. You know what I mean? It was a nice, it felt like a really good welcome, back to a life I haven't been leading now for a few years due to many, many reasons such as COVID and losing my father and then, you know, the police assault and all that nonsense and getting PTSD and being ill for the past seven months. It's mad to think that like only a few months ago, I was bed bound and unable to do basic shit. And now here I am jumping around with Skindred on the main stage in front of like, you know, nearly 18,000 people at Beautiful Days Festival. So yeah, I feel like, I feel quite proud of, you know, the transition that's happened. In the space of this year so far. And it's really, really, really good to be back feeling like myself again in my natural habitat and doing what is my true calling. And bring on a lot more of that. Hopefully there'll be a lot more of that coming. So if you want to find out where we're playing next, please go to jameskennedystuff.com slash tribe and then join the mailing list there. Enter your town and your email address. And if we're coming near your town, we'll let you know. And please come and join the madness. But that's enough about me. We are here today. To talk to the one and only Mr. Frankie Poulin from the absolutely fucking insanely incredible, awesome, brilliant, everyone loves him. You know who they are. You don't need me to big him up. We're talking about the darkness. These guys have got tons and tons of shit happening right now. They're touring all over the world with their amazing live show. They've got a 20th anniversary reissue coming out of their first classic album, Permission to Land. They're calling it Permission to Land again. There's a documentary. Talk of a book. There's fucking... Man, it's all kicking off, honestly. So I can't wait to get into this and ask Frankie what the lowdown is, what's happening, and also get his thoughts on, you know, my usual points of interest, such as the music industry and, you know, who knows, might even get into a little bit of politics. So without further ado, in my opinion, the coolest member of the band with the best hairstyle, let's welcome onto the show, Mr. Frankie Poulin. How are you, sir? Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2Very good. And even better, hearing my name pronounced correctly for the first time in 28 years.
Speaker 1Well, I will admit, it was a bit of a risk. It was a bit of a gamble, but I am learning French and I thought that the spelling seemed to make sense to me. So I'm glad I got it right.
Speaker 2It was an impeccable pronunciation.
Speaker 1What did you get? Poulin? Is that the standard?
Speaker 2Yeah, everyone says Poulin, you know. Even the guys in the band once, you know, we did this song once all about... It was called Second Fiddle. It was Dan talking about how he's always second fiddled his brother. It was a song for the fans, you know, all about the band and everything. And Justin even managed to do a false rhyme where he managed to rhyme Eddie Graham with Frankie Poulin. Ah, nice.
Speaker 1Like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the biggest stretch. Well, what's happening, man? What's going on? You guys have got a load of things happening right now. So fill us in.
Speaker 2Well, at the moment, I'm in Cornwall. We're on a songwriting trip for our, would it be, eighth album? And we're also about to undertake rehearsals in a couple of weeks for the... 20-year anniversary world tour, which is going to be in the States, first of all, and then we're going to hit Europe, UK, then Australia, Japan.
Speaker 1And this is the 20th anniversary of Permission to Land, right? Which is called... Which is called Permission to Land again. Again, yeah.
Speaker 2So here we are again. But, you know, we'll be doing a lot of rare B-sides and there'll be a few surprises in the set too. We've just been working on the set design and it's going to be... Yeah, we're putting a lot into it because this is possibly our last tour before we're back in arenas for the next album. We've really done really well in the UK and Australia and we've gone from, you know, the theatres into the arenas. So it's really good times for us at the moment. And we've got a documentary coming out later in the year as well. Oh, nice.
Speaker 1Yeah, 100%, man. Dude, I mean, yeah, like the package for the reissue that's coming out is absolutely incredible, man. There is so much stuff on it. There's so much stuff on it. There's so much stuff on it. It's on offer there. It's available for pre-order right now and there's like, there's a four-disc edition. It's coming out on multi-vinyl options as well with, you know, loads of info on the album and stuff like that. Tell us about the package, man. It's available to pre-order right now, yeah?
Speaker 2Yeah, there is and there's lots of commentary from the guys, a little bit from me as well, and all kinds of rare photographs and rare recordings as well, live recordings from back in the day and bonus tracks and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, it's wonderful for the fans.
Speaker 1Oh, man. Yeah, it looks absolutely gorgeous. And like I said, you are playing absolutely everywhere as well. So, yeah, you've got a busy year coming up and good to know that, you know, you're songwriting as well at the moment and with plans to do some arena tours and new stuff coming up as well. I mean, are you guys, have you guys got a forecast now for like the next two years or so or are you just focusing on now or what's happening?
Speaker 2We're taking our time with this album. Goodness, we've worked really hard the last few years. it got everything back and even KLF. after covid um we put a lot of work and we did like a seven week tour of the states and we were the first band actually for a lot of people in the states the first band after covid
Speaker 1so that was an experience oh man i can imagine yeah and like you guys are so good live as well such a fucking killer live show so i can imagine that after after all that time off people were just fucking blowing their minds i mean dude i'm so jealous i mean i'm in a band myself and they're like you know obviously at a much different level to you guys and i just imagine that like it's so hard you know for for most bands and when we look at but guys who are like flying and soaring the heights that you guys are we imagine that like it's all trouble free and that you have no problems at all and everything's taken care of and it's all sex drugs and rock and roll and glitz and glamour and decadence and ease and um i'm just fascinated to know the true reality behind the scenes i mean is that where it's at for you guys now or do you still have challenges and struggles even at the level that the you
Speaker 2it's all about companionship brotherhood you know chemistry because you know you go through the heart because the struggle is really where it's at you know that's that might sound wanky for me to say but the struggle is what bonds you together and that can be a really enjoyable thing you know if you've got that chemistry and you've got to be able to have a laugh you know and um we've got a lead singer you know we're really lucky to have a guy like him who who doesn't doesn't take anything seriously he doesn't take himself seriously anymore that's the so rare in the lead singer he hasn't got any of those annoying traits the most almost all lead singers have you know so that's great you know um and uh we've got also a pair of brothers who don't um have like a kind of passive-aggressive or a kind of unhealthy relationship in any ways it's really inspirational they've got great parents then justin you know really good people who sacrificed a lot for them that's really um where it comes from you know their father built them like a garage where they could um record and play and really supported them as well you know and their mom was a really big into the um 70s and 80s kind of scene back in the day you know that's you know we talk about that we've touched on that it's touched in this in the documentary almost like the friday friday link with uh justin's mom coming back from um on the club in carnaby street and how she saw brian jones in a pink catsuit yeah you know that's kind of almost the thing that kind of set it off so what's the nature of the documentary man that
Speaker 1sounds super interesting is it kind of like a traditional rock and roll behind the scenes following you guys around doing your thing sort of thing or is it more to do with the the human
Speaker 2and the relationship side of things well it's not what people are going to expect it's it's there are silly bits and there's definitely surreal bits i would say it's more surreal than silly but the director simon emmet who funny enough comes from a fashion background but he also has a bit of history in making these documentaries he did one about barnett football club and about the link between barnett and the community up there and the link between these eccentric fans who uh just had this obsessive passion for um barnett and he's done the same with the darkness fans he's focused on that he's also focused on our kind of passion kind of love kind of for a music form which is kind of dying out really you know it's um not quite archaic but it's people call it heritage don't they you know they're kind of rock scene you know over the old kind of classic rock bands we're still kind of carrying that on in spite of everything and there's been times when we've been like the laughing stock sometimes people laughing out sometimes people laughing with us i guess that's the uh the big differentiation so the documentary explores all these things and also touches on some quite emotional um things that would be kind of maybe hardcore and quite depressing and other bands but the way that we've managed to kind of laugh at things that happened some quite dark moments um health issues and of course you know the breakup of the bands as well so yeah it's all there and it's a lot more emotional people will think and it was uncomfortable for us but that's a good thing to make a good you have to be uncomfortable and it has to really be about the human struggle because you know back in the day we tried to do a documentary covering all the success in 2003 2004 but that's not good to watch human documentaries are almost always invariably about the human struggle and that's
Speaker 1what makes them resonate well yeah that already that sounds right up my street man that sounds fascinating because yeah it's that sort of stuff that i'm interested in because as you said yeah we all love to watch a band sailing the fucking highest heights like you guys have but after a while it gets a little bit like okay cool we we know about that you know what i mean like we know all the stories about aussie and private planes and you know fucking strippers and cocaine and whiskey and all that sort of stuff we've kind of we know that story because it's being told but it is still we still love to see it because it is the dream that all of the rest of us kind of like hope to attain one day but never do but as you as i think i totally agree with you when you say that it's actually the deeper connection the deeper resonance is that human struggle that those universal themes that we can see like oh wow guys like the darkness they still struggle too they still have their interpersonal conflicts or their mental health struggles or their substance issues or whatever it might be you know this that there's baggage that come with that lifestyle that we hadn't really considered because we haven't experienced that life so i think getting an insight into that stuff is so much more interesting i think and and resonates more emotionally i think as well exactly and you
Speaker 2got to put your vulnerability out there you know and we did and it wasn't necessarily enjoyable but it's uncomfortable for us that's a good thing i think um you have to put yourself in an uncomfortable situation maybe not quite as uncomfortable situation as bros did but or metallica in some
Speaker 1kind of monster that was pretty cringe in places yeah the cringe factor is good though i think it
Speaker 2should be cringe because it is ridiculous the way that we lead our lives um so i think you almost have a duty to do that to put yourself out in the cringe factor uh because i guess ever since things the history of western civilization you know the metal years once that's come out you know you just have to own it and just say yeah yeah yeah this is ridiculous what we do you know and we're you know we are dicks most of the time and we're ridiculously fortunate and it's such a strange way to lead your life so you have to um just yeah expose it all really as much as you can anyway yeah i totally agree man so i was just remembering something that justin said once we were talking all about um something ridiculous again you know some stage thing and then um and then i mentioned um you know there's a dignity kind of aspect and everything and then justin said and you can't lose something of which you haven't got any left you know yes you just own it i love that man yeah i love it
Speaker 1because you're in an interesting space as a band musically visually uh you know in terms of the um the genre that you're associated with and everything but i mean the fact that you have fun with it and there's you know there's a tongue in cheek to it as well um as well as the great musicianship and the great show and the fucking amazing songs and everything like that you you can tell that like you don't take yourself too seriously as a band that totally comes through there's a fun factor to it and it's almost kind of like a little nod there to the uh to yeah we know that like this is mental but you know we're fucking doing it anyway you know yeah yeah do you have um pockets of normality in this lifestyle then i mean is it is it is it rock stardom all the time or do you have our insanity for like six months and then like complete normality for the rest of the year
Speaker 2no there's too much normality but you know really if you're talking about what we do for a living we're actually travelers because uh 90 95 of our existence is taken up with just traveling just hanging around airports sitting on um tour buses in our bunks or in the back lounge of the kitchen area i mean you know it's a decent tour bus but still traveling and a lot of it is drudgery so i kind of you know wind down and and you know wind it down and conserve your energy and then you just wait and then you push all your energy out you know for that gig or whatever it is that you're doing or the video shoot but really it's like we're mainly travelers and killing time yeah well
Speaker 1i guess at your level you're more like space travelers because you know the level that you guys operate as a band is kind of mostly unattainable and it's for most artists and beyond the comprehension of most people outside of this world as well because you know most people don't get to live or experience that life or saw the kind of heights that you guys do as a band you know so i can only imagine what kind of roller coaster that must be because it's intense enough you know at the transit van level you know where most bands operate uh you know where you're bored out of your mind for most of the fucking day and then you launch face first into the mad rush of a live show before being hurled back onto a dark empty motorway again it's just fucking weird so i can only imagine how that must be when you're doing it at the sort of level that you guys are yeah for sure yeah
Speaker 2if anything is when you um go on stage you have to suppress some of your kind of excitement and kind of collect yourself and compose yourself but then the other side of things where it's the 95% you're not doing exciting things you have to almost generate excitement so you're doing the opposite things both times because both things are so extreme yeah that's a really interesting point actually i mean i
Speaker 1talked a lot about my experience of falling apart as a human being as a result of this lifestyle in uh in my book noise damage um and i know that you you're a published author as well you've written a book called dancing in the darkness where you chart your journey um into this world which i haven't yet read but i'd be fascinated to do so but i'd also be interested to know how did you find the writing process and you know was it quick and easy for you or did you find
Speaker 2it long-winded and tedious yeah i find it a bit long-winded and tedious uh um and i wouldn't do the same thing like that again i try to make it a bit tongue-in-cheek and silly but i would do something completely different um next time i wouldn't write from first person perspective you know create like an alter ego or do something like that you know that'd be more interesting i think
Speaker 1yeah nice well i'm currently i've actually made the same mistake twice i'm actually coming towards finishing my second book now i got a deal for my second book my first book did really well it went to number one on amazon in three categories which was awesome for for about a day it was the second best-selling rock biography after roger daltrey which was amazing considering it's about a band who didn't make it didn't get signed no one ever fucking heard of and i think it's the resonance of the book is very much what you were describing about the documentary because i'm talking mostly about the struggle and there's no happy end and it didn't work out you know i think it resonated with the 99 percent of bands who also have that journey and don't make it to the darkness level you know um but the reason i mentioned that is because the second book i'm writing at the moment i've just finished writing a chapter on mental health in the music industry and how it's such a universal crisis there and i would love to ask you as a band that's been around a while now and you've seen some pretty big highs and some pretty good highs and you've seen some pretty good highs and you've seen some pretty big lows and you kind of alluded to it a little bit in the previous answer but what are some of the things that you guys do to manage your mental health to keep yourself all in good health to look after each other to to keep a balance what are some some of the things that you guys do to keep the show on the road but keep yourselves happy and healthy in the meantime just don't
Speaker 2take yourself seriously you know try to practice self-awareness and just learn to laugh at ourselves and just accept that the human condition is a human condition everyone's got kind of blind spots and i guess you know we have a good chemistry in terms of uh the different um what we each represent i mean i said there's a bit in the documentary where i say that um if we're a family you know then dan is the father justin's a trophy wife the drummer is the adolescent teenager and i'm the weird uncle we each inhabit kind of different spaces and and adopt different roles even if it's some of it's subconscious but in terms of mental health yeah just trying to be self-aware and trying to challenge ourselves and just not to take ourselves seriously and kind of laugh at the mistakes we don't reprimand each other in fact we actually encourage the mistakes in each other and we'll highlight and draw attention to them and and then laugh at them rather than um incriminations and really we don't really like you know this the ego thing never really comes in you know or if it does then it's um i just never really um notice any kind of ego um issues at all in the band no none whatsoever which is quite rare yeah yeah it is really rare especially when you
Speaker 1get to the sort of level that you guys are when you've got the crew and the support and the entourage and the funding and the fans and you're living in that kind of bubble world that you're living a lot of the time it must be very hard so to have the internal weather uh healthy i think that makes that makes
Speaker 2a big difference yeah you have to and also it's all the people around you as as you mentioned the crew um the wardrobe and the merch really there's no room for anyone that has an attitude problem so you have to really use your instinct there and gradually you find yourself weaving people out unfortunately and you have to and it's really for the best you know if you smell a rat or maybe that's slight exaggeration but if you um just if someone's not kind of blending or not combining with other people you really have to nip in the bud because these days it has to function like a well-oiled machine you know there can't be any kinks or anything you know because
Speaker 1you have to make money from touring so that makes a lot of sense and i think that's uh that's essential at every level of the ladder i mean we had to we had to lose a drummer in our band who's probably the best musician i've ever fucking played with because he wanted to fight his way out of every club with a steel bar and after a while that just just grinds everybody's gears you know what i mean so yeah you have to keep the uh you have to keep a like a like you said that well-oiled machine there's no space for douchery or you know i don't
Speaker 2think yeah exactly yeah the really the attitude the mentality is almost more important than having like the best technical kind of musician or it's all about the combination and the blend
Speaker 1the chemistry well i'm so glad to hear that that same rule applies at the higher rungs of the ladder as well uh that's that's great yeah that's some great advice there for bands who are out there because it is tough right now i mean have you found it it's gotten tougher with you guys with things like brexit and coming out of covid and stuff like that i know like the cost of touring is a lot higher now i know ticket sales have been um up and down as well have you have you guys found any uh effect good or bad as a result of any of those things coming out of covid with brexit or
Speaker 2is everything pretty much as it was yeah all those things are the major pain in the arse you know covid and brexit obviously you know nothing good could come out of that but well actually i'll tell you what something good can come out of it because we're all in this together and we're all in this what it does is it makes you dig deeper and compensate you know so it takes away any complacency uh but it's obviously like a pain in the arse but you know something we've been insulated from most of the bad effects by having great management who almost never put a foot wrong and they've navigated our way out of these tricky situations and now we're actually um in a better place than we have been for uh 18 years really well that's that well that's good to hear man
Speaker 1how do you feel about the music industry generally then because um you know you guys have come up during a time when we've seen the historic transition between the old model of you know cds and vinyl into the you know the digital and the streaming model and obviously there's been a lot of readjustment a lot of labels kind of fell by the wayside and you know it took a while for everybody to figure they get their heads around how things work now you guys have been a band through that transition you've seen both sides have you got any thoughts about you know the state of the industry right now do you think it's in an interesting place or is it any better or worse what are your feelings well there's less um arseholes because
Speaker 2you can't really afford arseholes anymore the whole kill your friends generation then if you read that book by john john livin yeah that kind of indulgence and uh complacency of the late 90s early noughties has kind of died away and now it's a reality now and that is a shame in a way because there's less characters in the industry and it's it's more kind of functional it's lost a obviously if you're looking for um a little kind of indulgence and decadence you probably find more of a canary wharf than you do in um their record industry oh yeah it's different yeah i
Speaker 1totally agree with you there man that's a great point as well what are your thoughts on music streaming then this is a contentious issue i know there's arguments for and against on both sides uh what do you think a force for good a force for evil or something in between well it was the wild
Speaker 2west out there when these um i think they were the ones that were the ones that were the ones that corporations kind of created them these uh platforms and made up the rules as they went along really there's an argument to say that they're gangsters really and yeah obviously we're not paying enough everyone knows that because the idea is that oh people are going to such and such because the platform is so great and they just haven't seen music on it you know it's not that they're going there uh oh and listen to this band so i'm going to listen to this band you know somehow the idea is that you're going to the platform first you know because it's so great which is obviously nonsense you know um so it is a bit unfair but at the same time um you are getting a lot of exposure and there is their argument is that you know they're listening to there and then the bank a concert ticket it's unfair but that's the way it is i'm not complaining about it well actually it probably is an argument but if people like bob geldof and the high ploy can't um change things and pun currently then uh i'm not sure who can if the politicians are powerless against the corporations then uh fans are even more powerless well i guess
Speaker 1you know there's always the argument that you know you you hit them where it hurts you hit them in their pocket and if enough people stop buying the fucking product and stop using the service then you know they're either forced to change or shut shop i suppose you know um but whether that's going to happen i seriously seriously doubt it i think streaming is here to stay and we just need to try and improve it and i think it's going to be a really good thing to do and i think it's going to improve you know the model as it exists um which is going to take a long time and it's going to be a lot of fucking collateral damage in that process but for me personally you know i don't i see it as a bit more nuanced i think than this argument is often presented it's presented as spotify is evil they don't pay enough fuck spotify but i think that there's an argument for perhaps you know how let's unfuck spotify you know the model is clearly one that people like it's here to stay it can be a great leader for discovery to to lead people then towards your uh you know your merchandise and your concert tickets and your t-shirts and things like that it's a great place as a music listener to discover new music so you know there are a lot of positives but yeah the remuneration rate sucks it is terrible but i think when people complain about that they're they're sidestepping the issue that for most major artists that are actually using the platform most of the people that are complaining about this with the loudest voice are people who are assigned to legacy record deals and they're not going to be able to do that because they're not going to be so it's not that spotify pay sucks which it does but also that 80 of what they get paid then gets given to their label and then 20% gets divvied up amongst their fucking managers and producers and all the other middlemen that have been locked into their contract. So it's a bit more nuanced than that. Whereas for someone like myself, who's an independent artist who does everything DIY and does everything himself, I get all of the publishing, I get all of the label side, I get all of the production and artists and performance and songwriting side, I get fucking everything. So I might not be shifting the kind of numbers that a major label artist would because I don't have that exposure or that added clout behind me. But what I do make is 100% of mine. So for me, Spotify pays a few bills every month, you know what I mean? Which is more than I had before. So I think it's a bit more nuanced than layered, but generally, yes. I mean, they need to pay a lot fucking more and they need to also drop this pro-artist system that they've got whereby they divvy up all the money against the highest streamed artists rather than divvying up the money depending on which paying listeners are. The money that I pay every month should be going to Bloodywood because that's all I fucking listen to. It shouldn't be going to Ed Sheeran, which I never listen to. So that system is mental. There's a lot of structural things that need to change. But I think you're right. I mean, it's David and Goliath, isn't it? I mean, how that's going to happen, I don't know.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly. I couldn't agree with you more. You know, the point is it all comes down to the government. There's hardly any area of life where there's regulation, you know, over the beast, the free market kind of capitalism. So you can't, you know, the problem is you can't just have regulation in one sector, not regulation in another. I happen to believe there should be regulation because we all know that the beast of free market capitalism has become like monstrous and out of control. And it's basically causing the end of our existence. And I think that's the problem. I think that's the problem. I think that's the problem. I think that's the problem. You could argue. And we have all these countries behind us that are going to go through the same thing that we're going through, India, China, Brazil. So it's a much, much larger question than just musicians, unfortunately. But yeah, of course, it's unfair. And many things are unfair, you know, with the 1% of the population controlling 50% of the world's wealth, et cetera, et cetera, you know. That's just a very brief summary and everything. I know I'm not dealing with any issues specifically. But the principle is, is that there should be more regulation across all sectors of life, you know. There should be like transport should be regulated, you know, you can't have the shareholders and real companies just fucking with people's lives like they do. You know, people can't get to work and strikes and there's delayed planes and trains because it suits the shareholders to do that. There's all kinds of shit going on. In the words of Roger Taylor, gangsters are running the world. You know, I'm not talking about drug dealers and mafia, you know, you know, we're talking about the corporations who are gangsters dressed up as
Speaker 1businessmen. Oh, 100%. No, I totally agree with that. And I think, you know, the drug dealers and the mafia are all part of the same class. It's just business, you know, the oligarchs and government and, you know, people with fucking billions stashed away in tax havens and the oil barons and the financiers, you know, they're all rubbing shoulders in the same places and mixed in that are the literal criminals, like, you know, the drug barons and the mafiosos and things like that. They're all part of the same class and they all exist to serve their own, the interests of their own economic class. So, yeah, I see them as literal criminals, you know, I mean, and if you look at how the rest of us fit into that picture, you know, we have to pay taxation, which is essentially extortion money, you know, like if you don't pay this money, then, you know, we're going to cut your fucking services off and send the fucking boys around, you know, aka the police. It's, I think it's worse now than it has been for a long, long time, because for the reasons you said, we've just got this kind of free reign, reckless, unregulated, capitalistic behemoth, which is just destroying the planet and everything on it, apart from the 1% who benefit from it.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly. Well, well put. I'm glad that we both understand that, but it doesn't change the fact that one can help feeling helpless. It's incredible how little the British protest, I mean, at least the French, you know, the French protest, and they do win some small victories, the French through protesting, but nothing makes people in this fucking country protest. It's just, it's incredible, isn't it? I mean, it's pretty obvious to see that that comes from the nanny state, which comes from the monarchy. I think psychologically it all comes from that. And that part of it makes me sick. I felt even worse than sick. I felt nauseous when the coronation was 10 days shut down when the Queen died. I felt it was just obscene and just an insult. I always think back to the First World War, you know, for a king and country, all these millions of working class men just massacred for a king and country. So the royal families of Germany and Britain could have their little squabble over having their places in the sun, you know, their colonies. Just obscene, you know. But coming back to my original point, the French don't have a royal family. And that's why they protest, because they don't have that culture of obedience and servile, kind of begging bowl, kind of servitude. Is that the word?
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Anyway, I'm glad I'm speaking to a Welshman. So I'm sure you can relate to that to a certain degree. English people don't seem to be, you know, you seem to offend English people so easily. I mean, of course, but I'm talking about, you know, the Southern, you know, I've lived in the South of England for a long time. And unfortunately, I've been faced with this awful kind of complacency and this kind of casual kind of, you know, they're so casual about it all. And just, you know, just this adherence to the hierarchy. And I guess they're happy, you know, the English middle classes is something I think about, isn't it?
Speaker 1Man, you are talking my language now, dude. Honestly, I feel like we should have gone on to politics earlier on in the conference. We have opened up the Pandora's box now, man. I totally agree with you about the French. I mean, look at what's been happening over there recently. Those guys know how to fucking make a noise, man. I mean, you know, they literally chopped off the heads of their aristocracy and their royal family. I mean, that's fucking awesome. You will never, ever, ever see anything like that in Britain. It's not going to happen. And like you, I blame this kind of apathetic, subservient, kissing the ass of those above you mentality that we seem to have over here, where it's like, royal family, there's so much better than us. And if only if I kiss the ass of the guy above me, then maybe I can be like him, rather than doing what the French do and take into the streets en masse and say, no, fuck the people above us. We're going to fucking burn it down. That's more my vibe, but it's never, ever, ever going to happen in Britain. And you know what? I blame not only that subservient attitude that you're talking about, where it's like, oh, you know, doffing the cap to those above you and not making a noise and not making a fuss and just being a good little fucking servant, a good little peasant doing as you're told and standing in line. Blame the pubs. You know, I think it's too easy to just go to the pub and have a fucking moan about it, but then don't do anything than to actually fucking rise up and get off your ass and change things for the better. I think, you know, if they closed the pubs down, you'd see a revolution by Tuesday. But it's almost as if we like this shit. We almost like having it bad. You know, it's weird.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think there's something masochistic about a large proportion of the English population.
Speaker 1Man, it's the only explanation I can think of as to why we've had the Tories in power for like nearly 13 years now. We've got to actually enjoy the pain. It's the only explanation I can think of.
Speaker 2I just noticed your Ramones t-shirt. Do you know this from Rockaway Beach? Yeah. I was on Rockaway Beach just 10 days ago. It's a great beach. Just like you catch a ferry from Wall Street Pier and it's about an hour ferry ride. I was really impressed. I had that kind of experience. It was really nice water, you know, and surf. You know, there's people surfing and everything, boogie boarding.
Speaker 1Nice, nice. Yeah, I think punk rock, the spirit of punk rock is always going to have a place in society, a necessary place in society, I think, like that. Not necessarily, it doesn't have to be connected to the musical genre. You know, things need to evolve and change. But I think the ethos and the attitude of punk rock, I think, is necessary, certainly more now than ever before.
Speaker 2Yeah, the legacy is just amazing. For a really small group of people, what they did, and how they changed culture for the best, it's just, you know, if it hadn't happened, what a huge chance. Things would be even worse. It was a huge thing. It really was. I met Chrissie Hines backstage. I know people don't say shit about punk rock, but in terms of her role in teaching Steve Jones to play guitar, for one, and just the way in which she, because that's really what it's all about, is the attitude. It's not what you do, it's the way that you do it. It's the way of doing things unapologetically. Anyway, yeah, I met her backstage at the Guns N' Roses support gig at Hyde Park, and that was a real privilege to meet her.
Speaker 1Oh, I bet, man. That's one of the many perks, I guess, of what we do for a living is not necessarily always about the financial pay. For most of us, that's fucking non-existent. But it is the travel, it's the stories, it's the people you meet along the way, it's the memories that you get. I mean, what else are you going to do? Spend your life fucking, you know, sitting in a cubicle, you know what I mean? Punch numbers for some douche, you know? like oh you're gonna be out there yeah okay you're broke but hey you just met your fucking hero at a festival or something you know i mean backstage and got to do a song with them or something so or just you know being stuck in the ass end of italy living in a transit van you know and fucking wanted to strangle your manager but that's still more exciting than being stuck in the office
Speaker 2surely couldn't agree with you more some of our best memories are in italy you know we do really well there apart from obviously having gear still in there you know there is a bit of crime there and actually it's difficult to sell merch there too because of the bootleg culture you know but apart from that that's kind of what i like about it because it's kind of scuzzy and unpredictable but the warmth of the fans and the the way they respond to our music is just really uh heartwarming
Speaker 1oh yeah i love the place man i love the people i love the culture i love the history it's one of my favorite places on earth man i had great times visiting there and playing there as well some of my most fun memories are playing places in italy but sticking with punk rock just for a second because you mentioned of course the ramones there in rockaway beach and what an important genre punk rock has been and the spirit of punk rock and i totally agree with that i've got a theory that i think struggle is a major engine for great music and great social change and oftentimes the two go hand in hand if you you know if you look at things like punk rock hip-hop the blues these are all game-changing musical genres and social movements that were all born out of social struggle and personal struggle and you mentioned earlier on the conversation how struggle has been an important part of your guy's journey and i think the struggle is an often overlooked element in the creative process and the and the creative journey of artists i mean we live in a culture where everybody is obsessed with the winners and the wins and the glory but really i think if we look back at the moments that spawned our greatest developments in life and our greatest achievements they all came from moments of struggle where we had to dig deep make really difficult decisions and changes and we had to dig deep and make really difficult decisions and changes and we had to channel our inner strength and resilience and put aside our bullshit you know for something that's more important than giving up you know so i think the failure and struggle gets really overlooked in the um the obsession that we have with success and achievement and winners so on that theme instead of asking you now about hey what's the biggest fucking gig you've ever done and all that sort of bullshit stuff you've answered a thousand times i'd like to ask you more about the failure and the struggle that you guys have encountered along the way that has contributed to your staying power and where you are as a band now have there been any catastrophic struggles or failures or moments when it was all looking so good and then it looked like it could all fucking fall through your fingertips at any point but somehow you pulled it back and
Speaker 2came back bigger stronger and better than before well everyone knows about obviously 2003 and 2004 and i wouldn't necessarily call that you know we all know about the struggle the conventional struggle you had between 2000 to 2003 you know in the hard yards and playing the pub circuit and then making it and then being in the band and then being in the band and then being in the the right place at the right time and then having the right song i believe the thing called love so i don't really need to talk about that but what's interesting more interesting you say struggle is actually the comeback in 2011 so the comeback with the original lineup we hadn't seen each other for a few years even the brothers hadn't spoken for a while and we got back together with ed on drums graham on drums and then we had um the management just wasn't right so we didn't come back well at all even though we had a lot of eyes on us we had a big comeback gig at download on the main stage in 2011 the management wasn't right the organization wasn't right the label wasn't right so there was a struggle after that but also um unfortunately ed realized that he couldn't um deal with some of his issues shall we say his health issues and his refueling habits so unfortunately you know we we lost him and that was a struggle so i would say the album after the comeback album the comeback album was hot cakes not our best album but it has its moments but there were struggles with management and then we lost ed and then we were left with the second comeback album with a new drummer and i would when i think back to that period it's the last of our kind album i think back there was a real uh atmosphere of struggle myself dan and um justin just the three of us on an irish i island off the coast of curry and i remembered that as being the album that really um epitomized the struggle because we've been given this opportunity to come back and be i wouldn't say we blew it but we didn't capitalize on it and then there was just three of us left and we had to work up again and that album last of our kind i think it has a couple of big songs on it barbarian and open fire and we really dug deep you know dan dug dan always digs deep but he dug really deep musically to to come up with um some amazing riffs and guitar work and then justin kind of was more emotive i think on the album so best man said to your question you don't want to think of the darkness and struggle i think back to that album and we did have emily dolan davis a female session drummer who was great on the album and recording the album and i think that's a really good album and i think that's a really good album with us it was nice to have her with us but then she didn't really want to tour with us that didn't feel right i guess uh women touring with the cock rock band didn't quite not that we are out in a cock rock but there was something about it that didn't quite work touring but in terms of the album she did help us
Speaker 1well amen to that man and yeah you are a band that has had more than your fair share of struggles and ups and downs and challenges over the years so you know that that is testament the fact that you're still here now kicking it bigger and better and louder than and flashier than ever before it's testament to that exact spirit that i'm talking about and speaking of bigger louder flashier faster more we gotta loop it back to what we came here to talk about in the first place we are talking about permission to land again the 20th anniversary reissue of that classic iconic album where it all started it is coming out on october the 6th and it is available for pre-order right now it is in a special four cd dvd release including the original album rare b-side bonus unreleased demos as well as live albums from their iconic shows that london astoria nebworth and the wembley arena as well as a two cd edition as well there's a five lp version there is a reprint of the original one lp vinyl which has long been out of print since 2003 it's now coming back man there is fucking loads and loads of options here this thing looks absolutely gorgeous i can't wait to get my hands on a copy there's there's a booklet as well with loads of info and backstory on on the um the album that is available for pre-order right now and it's coming out on october the 6th the band are also going on a colossal tour they're playing all over the in north america as well as a bunch of sold out dates in the uk with a whole bunch of new dates announced for edinburgh newcastle leeds nottingham rock city my favorite venue brighton and london as well as dates across europe and everywhere else so all you darkness fans out there you are in luck the boys are going to be playing here there and everywhere with a brand new record coming soon as well new material there's going to be a documentary and talk of a book as well frankie said so it's a great time for darkness fans and a great time for the band i'm sure i mean dude busy times busy times indeed for you guys busy times good times
Speaker 2looking forward to it and we're um we've got this stage show that we're just working on now which
Speaker 1we're really excited about yeah oh man well i'm excited as well i know that everybody listening to this is going to be excited because you guys are so fucking good life so i can't wait to see what the new live show is going to be and i can't wait for everything ahead man i mean what a great few years you guys have got ahead of you and long may you guys continue to to do your thing and bring so much joy and fucking awesome tunes and good times to so many people around the world who love you so much for it we thank you for what you do brother long may you continue to do so and thank you so much for stopping by today and chatting with us it's been a really really interesting chat so i really appreciate you stopping by and uh yeah i'll see you at a show soon man
Speaker 2thanks james really appreciate it all the best cheers frankie take care brother see you see you
Speaker 1man catch you soon bye bye frankie polan ladies and gentlemen let's hear it for him and make sure you pronounce his name right it's pola not poulain come on you ignorant mother fuckers say it right what a dude what a cool guy what an awesome band what an awesome story what an awesome conversation i hope you enjoyed it now i'm sure you don't need me to tell you who the darkness are and i'm sure they don't need me to do any promo for them but if you want to go to their website it is the darkness live.com and on there you can see all of their live shows coming up and their tours and links to to pre-order the new release permission to land again as well as all of their other stuff the band are on facebook at the darkness official and they're on instagram at the darkness and whilst we're doing this i would give a massive massive plug and recommendation and a shout out to the brilliant podcast by the band singer justin hawkins he's got a youtube channel called justin hawkins writes again check it out it's absolutely fucking brilliant if you haven't subscribed to my podcast what the fuck you're doing with your life come on get on it you freeloading bastards it is easy to do just click follow subscribe give me a star rating leave some comments lay me some recommendations let me know what your thoughts are on any of the things we talk about here let me know which guests you'd like me to have on my podcast and i'll see you in the next one have on give it a share get involved and just genuinely do your bit bro that's how this works man you paying for this shit no of course you're not so give me a share dude come on help my brother out now as i've said i'm supposed to be officially on podcast hiatus at the moment to be working feverishly on finishing my second book with a deadline which is looming ever closer so i will not be back next week but that said i have said this twice now and i've done two episodes since saying that i'm on hiatus so there may be another bonus episode coming soon there may not be i'm just going to play it very much by you know what happens and what comes through the door but there are no forecasted scheduled episodes coming up so Season two will be with us after the summer once I've made some headway into the book. I'm dying to get back onto the podcasting game. I do love these conversations and meeting new people and having these interesting chats. So I will be back with a whole bunch of new interesting episodes and awesome guests really, really soon. But it's not going to happen next week. So go back in the meantime and check out all the previous episodes with all the brilliant conversations we've had with some brilliant minds and brilliant artists over the past year. And one final shout out about the band. Just before I sound out, James Kennedy and the Underdogs are officially playing the live circuit, man. We're out there after all this time. Those of you who've been following my journey know that it's been a bit of an arduous trek to get to this point. But we're out there fucking doing it, man. The shows are going kick ass. It's all going really well. So if you want to come and see us live, go to jameskennedystuff.com slash tribe. Whack your name and your email address and the city that you live in in the box there. And we will come and we will see you and we will play for you and have a great fucking time. Because God knows it's been a long time coming and I'm really enjoying being out there again, man. So I'd love to see all of you again. So please, if we're playing near you, come and see us. And if you want us to come and play near you, whack yourself into the mailing list and tell us, you know, what town you're in and we'll come and hunt you down. I'm on Instagram at jameskennedyuk. The band is at and the underdogs. And I'm also on Facebook at jameskennedyband and on Twitter at jameskennedyuk. So come and say hello, man. And in the meantime, have an awesome week. As always, take care of yourselves. Take care of each other. And I. We'll see you while I see you. Love you loads.
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