#52 - AI Glasses: Is This the iPhone Moment? w/ Oscar Falmer from Meta

Hello everyone and welcome to the Medivertizing podcast. I'm your host, Yelai Centels, and this podcast is all about exploring immersive technologies and its possibilities, with people that are at the core of its development. And today I'm extremely excited to welcome Oscar Falver. Oscar, say hi to everyone. Hi, hi, hi everyone. Glad to have you here, Oscar. So guys, Oscar Falver is a world-boss developer advocate and meta, where he supports developers building content for meta AI glasses. He has spent nearly a decade in XR previously working in developer relations at both Snap and Apple, where he helped developers create AR experiences across mobile, social media, and wearable platforms. So Oscar, tell us a little bit about yourself what you're doing in your background. We'd love to hear it. Sure, thank you so much for the invitation and for the great intro. So yeah, my name's Oscar. Yeah, my background is software engineering. Back 10, 15 years ago I was building mobile apps. I was an iOS developer, actually, self-states, a site for my university, was learning on my own how to design, go to this apps, and then basically AR SDKs came out, where in 2017, and then I feel like what we've seen in the movies can now be done, right? Can be real. So yeah, I started my journey there, did an Apple Twitch reality, which was one of the first AR Twitter clients on mobile, giving a vision of what we would experience in the future of AR. Long story short, because I kind of love sharing my enthusiasm, connect with other passionate people about these topics. Actually, this is how pretty, quickly Apple offered me to join the developer relations team to support partners and third party developers building with these latest features. And actually, I was there. I was at Apple, then I was at Snap, so supporting with social AR and spectacles of AR glasses. And now it's been actually a couple of months in January, I'm at Meta, as a wearables developer advocate, actually supporting developers, partners building content for AI glasses. So yeah, super excited to be here and excited about our conversation. Amazing. Yeah. And I think like, you're a really good guest to talk about this, because like, as you said yourself, like kind of your career has almost tracked the evolution of XR itself, right? So you've been following up with this industry, like for many years now, and you've followed also the evolution of the technology. So like, I'm curious to hear your perspective about like from, you know, coming from mobile, you know, and you know, mobile, then mobile AR and then now AI glasses and now AI glasses really picking up and like getting some traction. I would love to hear your thoughts about this evolution. And like, what are you, what is going on through your head as someone that's been like, you know, like just watching this. Yeah. And just dating of that, you know? Sure. Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's almost been 10 years in XR. So definitely it's been a very interesting journey. And I mean, it's, it would be a lie to say that everything was easy to guess. You know, I think we all know XR. There's been a, you know, different cycles. And so yeah, when, I mean, I think the interest, the, what, what happened is that for a couple of years, I think mobile AR was a great way to democratize kind of how AR can get into everyone's life. Or say everyone knows Pokemon Go was probably kind of the number one marketing app for a mobile AR. And I think, I think it took up for a couple of years. It was great. But also there's just, you know, I think with this form factor, you need to hold in your hands. That was something that usually you can only experience for a short amount of time. And so I think that's when it quickly transitioned to social AR where I think platformed like Instagram, God, very popular with, you know, social AR and when I was at Snap As War because you don't have to download an app. It's basically you're loading a quick and easy AR experience. And actually you can't share it with friends. So it's even more enjoyable. And, and I think this has been, yeah, popular so for many years. I think I would say to my, my guess is more like mobile AR was kind of peak time during maybe let's say 2017 till 2020. And then I would say after social AR, a couple of years, doing great. But also I think it hit at some point a certain plateau in terms of, you know, new features, new capabilities. I think there's a lot of exciting stuff that's been done on it. But there's maybe not less of a new, you know, new things that would surprise users. And I think as some, yeah, companies like all like Microsoft or other lands or with AR glasses like magic clip where having a hard time finding a product market fit in the meantime, back then smart glasses that became AI glasses started to really pick up because I think in a way, even with that display, that's kind of adding, you know, that's kind of making that's kind of making, let's say that's removing friction between, you know, computer experiences and human being by being with you all the time. You can record moments, you like, you can listen to music, you can use now multi-modal AI to learn more about what you're looking at. You can, yeah, basically at this kind of intelligent assistant with you 24/7. And also I would say what really stands out of this is that you have really good battery life and it's pretty light. So actually this is a for a pretty affordable price. So I think that's how, yeah, now we're getting there. And as you know, we've met how so there's the display device. So there is already like kind of, I feel to this category also display now that are coming. It's just usually a bit more expensive devices. So I feel right now the more consumer device are definitely the one without display. But definitely, I think, yeah, it's super interesting this journey. I feel like the XR is especially related to AR and glasses in general. I think now it's like super like super simple compared to fairies like sophisticated hardware like Quest. But at the same time, you know, exactly what people's need, right? It's minimalist. It's still powerful as a power of what your phone can do in your glasses. And yeah, and just now it sells millions and actually, yeah, it seems like competitors that you know want to jump on it from from you. So yeah, interesting, interesting time. Yeah, sorry, it's very long answer. But I think we're saying a very interesting journey that was hard to guess at the beginning. Yeah, and I love you. I love your your your answer. Cause I think like it's interesting to reflect about how I don't think anybody could have predicted that things were going to happen the way that he happened. So like you mentioned the evolution of devices and like how like a lot of people and you know, a lot of people still believe and I also still believe in AR glasses and everything. But the form factor that is winning now is like, you know, I don't think anybody could have, you know, predicted that this was going to happen this way. So I'm curious to hear your opinion like, why do you think these, the form factor that we have right now, the AI glasses, why do you think these are winning? You already mentioned like, you know, just the fact that it's lightweight, the capabilities. Do you think that AI like was the reason why this is so successful? Love to hear thoughts. No, I think there's a mix of things. First of all, I think from, you know, on the AR, an original coming from AR, I think there's known like this known challenge of having like a lightweight, having a good battery life, having good heat management. So actually, which is really really easy to battery life. And when there is a field of view, actually having a large field of view. And so I think, first of all, before talking about the actual features, there is now like, these are very lightweight glasses, like actually most people trying them, like don't feel the difference with regular sunglasses or the prescription glasses, the battery life is great. It lasts hours. People actually never, it's I think it has this kind of feelings as air pods do, right? It's like, you don't even have to worry about it with this kind of form factor. You know, it lasts hours and by the time actually, you know, before you actually would get to even this amount of hours, you would already put it back in the charging case. And so like air pods, you don't think about it. So I think battery life is great. Also, it doesn't overheat again because there's not all these challenges yet as much with displays. And so, yeah, I think that this, this pillars of, yeah, weight battery life, it might as well as being nailed down pretty, pretty well with this form factor. And I think in terms of use cases, yeah, I think people want just to, I think there is, I think something interesting is that I think people are sometimes a bit tired of holding their phones, like seeing the walls of their phones. I think sometimes especially with their family and friends, you know, before right, we were recording, we were talking about our weekend. You know, when you're, you know, this weekend, it's, I was saying it was very sunny, and lambda, you were saying it was not sunny for you. But you know, when you're, when you're hanging out like this, hopefully when it's sunny, you know, you, you sometimes want to record this moment with your friends. You want them to be genuine. You don't want, you don't want them to feel like they're, you know, they have a phone on their face. And also, you want to, you know, sometimes you're also, you want to have the hands free because you're doing something where you using your hands, you're out on a maybe running around. And so I think recording the memories, people with people you love, I think the camera, the camera video aspect was probably a great starting point when this kickoff a couple years ago. And I think definitely also obviously speakers, the calls, features are very convenient. But I think now with, yeah, AI, the AI assistant part with Meta AI. And as you saw now, there's a new model also Meta Muse, a spark coming up, actually running out this next couple of weeks over the glasses too. So yeah, I think, I think for this price range, that's something I was not touching on. yet. I think for this price range, this is really popular. And also, last thing, sorry, is everyone has sunglasses. More, I was checking before this call, more than 50% of the population, I think globally, as prescription glasses. So, yeah, so I think people just need meet glasses anyway. And so they're just happy to try it out and they enjoy it, and then they shared with their friends. And yeah, just as a, after an effect where people just share with their friends and their friends by it. And yeah, I think it's going to just very popular. It's amazing. I love the perspective. I think, yeah, like it's interesting how meta seems to have nailed different aspects of making this a success in terms of product market fit. And this is something, as you know, I was just saying, that's not something that we've seen with previous generation of devices. You know, this focus on being marketable first, you know, and being something that people actually love from the get go. So I think that's really cool. One point that you tap that I think it's really interesting is the use cases, right? Because so far, like, you know, this is still early generations, you know, like we're still starting out. So there is not as many use cases, but it's already very interesting, right? So I love to hear thoughts about the use cases piece specifically, because like when we think about the types of things that we could do, you know, like when like the technology becomes better and more seamless and the software becomes better, there's so many cool things that we could do, right? So I love to hear thoughts about like, what do you think already feels like generally valuable today? And also, what do you think like, you know, what are you excited about? What do you think people are going to be doing with glasses in the next few years? So I love to hear thoughts on that. No, sure. No, I think you mean in terms of consumer, right? Not from the developer, president, like in general, consumer. I think, yeah, not just, just I guess just in general, you know, like I just have just used to hear like, where does your mind go to when you think about use cases like in the future and now as well? No, sure. No, I think, I think, yeah, I think we're thinking of these elements getting better and better and I think it's getting so powerful that it really helps getting providing valuable information and valuable, I don't know, support at the right contextual like moment, you know, it really is able to see the world that you see it here, the world that you like you hear it and provide a relatable expense. So I think as AI assistants and LL labs are getting better, I feel like this is something that, yeah, is getting smarter overall. I mean, we just announced also like two weeks ago, now for example, that's coming later this year, there is the ability to get a nutrition information on your food, your eating. I think just there's a lot of smart use cases in your day to day, where, you know, like you're seeing with the display glasses too, like you have navigation, like we, you know, I didn't talk about them too much yet because they only have it when the US, but you know, like for example, with the display, there's more use cases enabled sometimes, like yeah, I think navigation in real time without having to hear someone in your speaker. So I think, yeah, having this, like yeah, I tried it over around London, you know, sometimes I was just working around Buckingham Palace and I was trying to find where it was, I was actually trying it. I was like, oh, I don't remember which direction it's there. I tried it, you know, with my, with my, I made a display glasses, I made a ribbon display glasses and it was super convenient. So I think having either display less or with display contextual AI based information and I think this kind of support in your day to day, I think seems to be really where people are exciting about. I think it's helping them being more productive. It's, yeah, it just helpful in day to day and I think over time, basically you don't need to take your phone anymore out, you don't need to, yeah, it just feels more natural because it's just closer to the world you're experiencing. So actually, yeah, I think, I think that's where things are going pretty fast and I think we're, yeah, we're seeing a lot of interest and yeah, also just in general, just we have a lot of updates on that in general that we release. Super interesting. That's amazing. And there's so many, I think, interesting things to unpack here. And I think one of them for me that immediately comes to mind when I think about the format that we're exploring right now with glasses, especially with Meta, you know, like there's also, we also think about the phone because today, like in order to use, not necessarily in order to use, like a lot of the information goes through the phone, right, in the case of the Meta glasses, like when you want to export stuff and everything. And a lot of the glasses manufacturers are also adopting that strategy. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts about having the phone in the loop in this, in this whole equation. Like do you think that it's a strength or do you think it's, you know, eventually it's going to become a limitation? I would love to hear your thoughts also because a lot of our listeners are developers. So I think they are also like considering like, you know, like having the phone as part of this equation, you know, like how should they approach it? You know, what should their strategy be? So yeah, love to hear your thoughts. I think, yeah, I think the phone basically right now, it's pretty convenient, you know, the phone allows to, you know, connect to the internet and basically, you know, reach out to the LLM. It's basically currently, I would feel kind of the brain of your glasses. I mean, you don't need the phone just to be clear. They kind of work standalone completely. You know, they are, you know, you can stay, keep your phone at home and get around with glasses. But if you use kind of this AI capabilities or if you're looking, yeah, for some of the, yes, these advanced features, definitely, I feel that Elps not running down the glasses battery live, you know, thanks to the BLE protocol, you know, it can all be handled, like a lot can be handled on phone. So I think now, and this is a great transition to the SDK too. I mean, that we call the WorldB all device Axel's toolkit. I, you know, basically developers can use these glasses, microphones, speakers. What's the other one? Microphone, speakers and. And the camera potentially? Oh, yeah. The camera, the camera speakers, microphone. They can do all the processing and mobile. So actually they are using, they can use the chip, the mobile chip, right? Either it's an Android phone, an Apple, like an Apple phone. Basically, you can use the power of devices to do all the processing you need. And I think that actually gives a lot of power to the glasses. Rather than if they were just standalone, even though they're, you know, they're powerful. I think that really adds another dimension. And for developers, it really brings, yeah, the power that you would get the phone to the glasses. So, yeah, I think it's very interesting because, yeah, even though it's not tattered, there's a very interesting leverage you can get to the phone. Makes it very powerful, right? And that's, I completely agree. And I think it's still going to be the case for the next few years, you know, and I think that's valid, you know, like because the more processing we do on the phone, which phones are very powerful nowadays, right? The last processing you need to do on the glasses, therefore lighter, therefore more battery as well. So, I also see its beneficial. And you tapped into the SDK a little bit there. So, a lot of people, you know, like don't really understand what you can do with the Met SDK. So, what can developers actually build today using the SDK? Yeah. So, the SDK has been in beta since December. Now we're in 0.6. So, you can't yet publish the apps, but basically you can prototype. There's a lot of very cool proof of concept that are being posted. And I recommend people checking out my LinkedIn and Twitter where I try to post as many publicly available prototypes as super inspiring. Long story short, from in terms of use cases, yeah, like I was saying, there's microphone, camera, and speakers for the non-display ones. Actually, you can use the same for the display ones, but yeah, you can use those. And basically, to the processing you want on your mobile and basically output. So, basically, your input is pretty much camera, microphone, and output speakers, but because this is through a third party, like basically you need a iOS or Android app. This is like an extension to this. You can also have relevant information showing on the phone, right? So, if in some kind of use cases, you need an output also visible on the phone or some kind of feedback. You can actually also do anything you want on the app that basically creates your experience. So, that's where things are standing now. We also have the display, like the ability to show information on the display coming later this year. I can't yet say well, but it's coming soon for sure. And I'm super excited about this. I think we'll knock a lot of use cases. So, yeah, this is where things are standing at the moment, but we have we've had for the past couple months, kind of monthly updates where yeah, we release exciting features. Yeah, there's way more coming up. I'm super excited about it. Yeah, you will learn more soon this year. That's amazing. And I think a lot of like developers are really excited about using the display as well. And I'm sure you know that like I've been, you know, like all the developers that I'm in touch with in our community, like they talk about it all the time. And like, but at the same time, like it's important to consider that the majority of the audience that has a meta-ray band display or meta-ray band, they're going to be using the earlier generations models that don't have displayed. So how do you think the developer should approach or should think about building four glasses without ignoring the much larger, non display audience? - Yeah, sure, sure. So yeah, I think that this place is gonna be super exciting. I think people are gonna do probably super exciting stuff with this. I mean, I'm sure. I know people are asking me about it every week, if not every day. I think the thing just to keep in mind is that even when the SDK for display will be available, and yet the widely available glasses are the non display wide, which I've sold millions globally. So the display glasses have only been available in the US if I'm not mistaken. And yeah, and because actually, yeah, there's just been a really great interest for them, which is really great news. But because this is very new technology, it's a bit harder to produce that global large scale like that. And so it's taking time to add a bit of ramp up. But so I think for developers, I would really recommend leveraging both as already thinking, okay, if you wanna have a wide audience, even if display will be available later, you try to think what you can do already without this plate, 'cause I think that will enable the largest user base, and you can have the largest reach. But if you're looking for more, I don't know, use cases that have a visual feedback that are, yeah, you need to, the user needs to see something. I think it's very interesting too. And I think definitely that avoids having any physical like output that would be on your mobile if your use case requires it. So yeah, so I would recommend to be first without display, and then when display is available for sure, that would be amazing to leverage it, and I think that would be also very exciting use cases. - Amazing, I love the perspective. And like if I think one big question that a lot of people have is like, if I'm a developer, if I'm a founder, entrepreneur, whatever, like, and I'm entering the space today, where's the money to be made? Like monetization, I know, it's too early to talk about monetization, but I would love to just, you know, like, like, do a light brush on that topic, because I'm sure a lot of people that are listening, they're like, okay, so, you know, where's the money, you know? - Yeah, sure, so that's, I think that's a super important question, and you know, with developer relations I've done in before in AR for so long, that's super critical topic. I think there's two answers to that. I think down the line, when the publishing ability would be, might be possible to publish later this year, but definitely people can monetize through having, you know, selling these apps that have this extension for glasses, or in-app purchase through these apps. But I think right now, in the meantime, what I'm seeing and what we're seeing is that there's a lot of, yeah, one of the work is being done for clients. So either it's actually like B2B2C, like, TorGad experience, where museums, venues, wants to, you know, kind of this TorGad's more sophisticated experiences with kind of a NEI assistance that can give real-time information. And then also on the enterprise side of things, there's been a lot of use cases around factory workers that don't need to have physical manuals, or maybe they can have remote live assistance, especially because they would often use their two hands, actually. Sometime it being a bit dangerous environments. So definitely, I think client work right now is where I see a lot of either EDVD or small companies, actually larger companies too, getting the revenue. So I would say, yeah, right now, I would recommend, yeah, exploring these different aspects for now, is if you need to monetize now, or if you, if you're, yeah, if you're interested in these different paths, I think client work might be working for now. And I think down the line here that would be great to explore different monetization paths with end users. That's great. And I think that's aligned as well with what I've been seeing. And also with the expectations of developers. So I think that's fair. Also another big question that I'm sure a lot of our listeners are asking themselves right now is around privacy. And I think it's a sensitive topic. And it's a topic that comes up very often in conversations with clients and everything. So I'd love to hear from you. What are practical safeguards people should understand about privacy, responsible usage of the glasses. And yeah, love to hear. - Yeah, no, sure. So first of all, yeah, glasses, even from the very first one, the, you know, the, the ribbon stories, they were always sort of from, you know, with privacy by design. There's always been LEDs that are displaying to other people around you that you are either taking a photo, either video. If I'm not mistaken, it used to be a static light. Now it's like a per-sading light. So it's like very, like, you know, it's very visible in all kind of environments. It actually, the LED was actually changed from one millimeter to two millimeters LED. So it's like as visible as possible. And also there is kind of a sensor in front of the, the basically the LED. So if you try to hide it, if you try to put your hand on it, or if you put the sticker on it or something, actually it will automatically block the recording of photos because, you know, this is, and there will be a warning to the speaker of the user. So they were real, so that, you know, users are recording moments with people that know they are being recorded or taking photos with, static grace memories together. So it's something super important for us. And, and actually if for anyone that is like trying to intentionally cover it again or temperate, et cetera, it violates the terms of services that met as providing to the users for using these glasses. So it's definitely, you know, yeah, we're making sure as much as possible that people are using it with the right intentions. And we're preventing as much as possible everything that would be against our term of services. And yeah, so that's super important. And I would say regarding also, yeah, with the developers with the SDK, the use cases, we also have some terms of services for developers in the use case they're using it for. And we are, you know, we're preventing also a malicious kind of use cases that would be against our term of services. So basically we are, yeah, for developers, we are, yeah, we have some terms of services of use cases we're preventing to make sure this is aligned, you know, with privacy. And if developers are not following this term of services, we definitely take actions for that against their applications or their developer account. So definitely, yeah, we're doing our best to make sure developers are building use cases that bring value to people. And that, yeah, that are thought with privacy by design. - That's amazing. It's really nice to hear that because as I said, like that's something that often comes up with client conversations and everything and just when you're talking about glasses in general. So it's nice to see that meta, you know, has a responsible and careful approach towards this because I think it's really important and I think a lot of our listeners are probably also, you know, like curious to hear more about that. And shifting gears a little bit, like a little while ago, you released a spreadsheet with which became kind of like a mini industry map about smart glasses and everything. And I think like I'm not sure if like people that are listening to us have come across this resource. But I would love to hear a bit from you 'cause you know, that was super valuable first of all 'cause I like when I came, like when you were posted on LinkedIn, I immediately saw it. So it was very valuable. And I'm curious also to hear like, you know, just what are your thoughts about, you know, like just the resource that you create? I'm sure you learned a lot about the industry as well by creating this thing. - Yeah, sure. So I've done it originally for my set because I thought, you know, I wanted to keep up with, you know, there was a lot of glasses coming up. And so I made as a document, there is a Google spreadsheet, there is a smart glasses tracker, there's also one for the operating systems, one for the controllers, one for the SDKs, and one for the optics. So I tried to really go from software to hardware to all kind of the, you know, what's going on in the industry. And I think, again, lots of glasses sometimes feel similar, but they have very different technologies. And so yeah, I think, yeah, it's been, I think, more useful to others than I expected because I think usually, yeah, I think there's none really as big as I've done before, as complete, probably outside because maybe when companies do it, they do it internally. And so this was before I joined Meta. So I think what I learned, I think what are, what is interesting is definitely, again, this trade-off of weight, battery life, heat management, field of view. When you look at all the devices and you look at these different catarias, you can really see the trade-off, right? And again, if you have like a really large field of view, usually you have poor battery life, or you know, it's very heavy. And usually if there's, yeah, like simple display, like the Meta ribbon display as, or non-display, these are way lighter, way better battery life. And I think the other thing is, obviously, that all of them are bridging to AI use cases. Obviously, very obvious. And I would say the other thing that is interesting is regarding controllers as well, you know, SOMELa as its neural band, this EMG-resband, SEMG-resband to be specific, which allows to read your electric signals in your hand to control your metarabine display. Yeah, there's many devices for controlling glasses, I think. This is more battery efficient that if you use computer vision, 24/7 to do hand tracking. So this is pretty interesting to notice too. Regarding also optics, I recommend anyone to check it out as well. I think what is interesting is actually also similar trade-off between field of view, heaviness of the glass and thickness. So thickness of the glass, how heavy it is and the field of view, and also the quality of the projector that can be put because there's in the optics, there is the waveguides, but there is also basically the projector. This has kind of actually two problems, let's say. And so these are very interesting because sometimes, yeah, they can be some large field of view, usually they're pretty heavy and thick, so they are hard for consumer device. But now there's more and more technologies coming up, like the Lumus waveguide that were used by metarabine display, that are good trade-off, right? They have a nice field of view, pretty light and also, yeah, so there's, it's interesting to see this trade-off because the optics challenges are very hard to nail down too. Actually, I've done a couple of months ago, a podcast called XR Cafe 2 where I interviewed a PhD of optics in France. Super interesting guy, I recommend checking out too. We're going, going in depth into kind of the challenges and it's super interesting because yeah, the optics world is kind of another dimension, but it's super impacting our field as well. And I think because the, like, I don't know, the optics, the people that are working on optics, the researchers that are working on optics are quite far off kind of the daily use cases we're seeing with glasses. We don't think of them often. So yeah, no, that's just my two cents. I think having a look at those is pretty telling about the state of the industry and usually actually other interesting fact, what I think about it is that these optics company like Lumus usually don't release the current optics they have before they get an agreement with company to distribute it. So actually, for most of them, if you look at the dates of release of the optics I put on this spreadsheet, they are sometimes often a couple years old, not all of them, but like they tend to be a couple years old because they only announce officially their availability to the public if they released it. With a partner. So yeah, it's, I think I try to always bridge this kind of software world in the hardware world because I noticed they're quite divided. And so I think actually all of these are connected for anyone that is interested enough in this, in this topic. So yeah, anyway, that's kind of a, I would say a couple of information that I think are worth checking it out. And the other last part would say interesting to also check out a lot of Chinese glasses which are usually poorly communicated on the Western markets, which are interesting. Usually they are not even available on Western markets. So it's just interesting to see what they're doing over there and they have different services, different stuff. So anyway, good, I think it's just good to give a good overview of the market. Yeah, I was actually going to ask you because I know that you're just naturally interested about China and you're following up with the ecosystem there and everything that's happening. And obviously like a lot of the startup glasses startups are coming from China right now. So when you look at China, like what do you think people here in the other side of the world may be missing or maybe underestimating? Yeah, that's a super great point. So yeah, I started to learn Chinese in middle school actually. So Mandarin since middle school. So I speak Mandarin a bit. It's basically it's very hard, but I can read right and understand speak. I could it, you know, I can figure it out. So I could it's a Bible Chinese, you know, when I'm in China, I can figure it out. And I've been going to China almost every year since 2011, except during COVID time because they were closed up for a couple of years. But yeah, I think it's super interesting. You know, it's my other passion. That's why usually I keep my Chinese and also on socials as well. And I feel like I'm super interested about this kind of glasses world, but also China because usually there's a lot of usually I mean, for my experience of 15 years, a lot of things where they are ahead in terms of a consumer adoption with different technologies. And you know, like 15 years ago, it was like voice messages on the street people were doing voice messages. And I was like, why do people do voice messages? It's so weird. We don't we didn't have voice messages in any Western social app. And I was like, so we and then two, three years later, it was a thing. So usually I noticed they are trend center for a lot of things, but because they are very siloed to the Chinese world, for different reasons, we don't often hear about it. So I think it's super interesting. There's a lot to learn from them. Regarding your question, what we're learning, what we're seeing from them, yeah, I think it's the same right now with foldable phones. When I'm in China, like I was in China like last year, you know, you have elderly in the subway that are using foldable phones, right? When I'm in London, I don't even see young people using foldable phones. It's extremely rare. It's not everyone in China, but it's way more common. And like, again, even elderly would use it. Now it's electric cars are everywhere. There's a lot of interesting things there. And actually, even recently, we saw we've opened cloud, like actually people of every age in China are getting to use like kind of the latest AI tools and stuff. So yeah, it's super interesting. And for glasses specifically, for wearables, what I noticed is that they usually have very interesting hardware, which are pretty much cutting edge because they are usually based in chanzen. They're usually based by the factory. What I noticed is that they usually release them first with that as much of a complete ecosystem compared to the US big tech company. So I think from a hardware perspective, the super interesting but usually, in terms of use cases, an ecosystem, they are not as developed. And a lot of the time, they are not even really compatible with the services we use. But even in the world, a lot of the time, they are just, yeah, they ship products that are not as ready as they are shipped in the western world. So yeah, I think it's usually interesting to kind of see some trends. And they're super interesting too. So yeah, I try to keep an eye on what they're doing. And again, I go to China like every year, I try to have my yearly trip. So I can get some insights and hopefully can use those insights as well as my work. Get a bit of a glimpse of the future, right? Exactly, exactly, exactly. It's very interesting. It's a very interesting place. That's really cool. Oscar, man, thank you very much. This was an amazing conversation. I really appreciate it. You know, I could talk about this for hours because I really could, like I would love to, but I don't think people are going to want to listen to that. Thank you, thank you so much. But yeah, but this was amazing. Thank you very much. So yeah, I'm just curious, like, is there any projects that you're working on right now that you like to talk about before we wrap it up or any anything there? Any attention to the things that you think is worth mentioning? Sure. So in exclusivity, I'm happy to say I will be at AWS. So yeah, I'll be at AWS in Long Beach. So super happy to meet like anyone that is there that wants to meet up and chat about use cases, the one with glasses or just, you know, want to want to meet please feel free to reach out. And yeah, we have the only thing I can say right now is yeah, this place of portcoming later, publishing availability coming later this year. We have many more exciting features. And yeah, I try to basically post those updates as much as I can on my socials. So I would say mainly LinkedIn and Twitter X. And but I also we also use a Gita for a repo. There's an iOS and Android repose where with discussions where I also post the updates and we have also the overseas of variables, the meta-reboost developer center, the meta-reboost developer center. I was wondering if it's platform center now it's center. And so I would recommend anyone that is interested in all those to check this out. So yeah, I think that's where it's best to keep the out on the news, check out the news that we're releasing. Amazing. You mentioned your your acts there and your social media like how do people go in order to follow you on these on these different platforms? Just yeah, Oscar Fadmer just my name. It's yeah, I was lucky enough. I think I'm the only one on earth with this name. So yeah, Oscar Fadmer everywhere. It's easy. All right, sounds good. So you guys you heard it. Definitely follow Oscar on these different platforms because it's totally worth it. I definitely recommend it. And Oscar once again, thank you very much. Man, this was awesome. Thank you so much. And yeah, thank you everyone. The listen to us today. I really appreciate you. And if you want to follow me already know it. It's Eli Centles-O-Lington, EOI Space Centles. That's basically it. Everyone, thank you. And I'll see you in the next episode. Thank you. [BLANK_AUDIO]