517 - The Buffalo River Cult: Murder, Prophecy, and... a Ghost Girl??

In the spring of 1978, a very small religious group, read fringe group of fanatical Looney Tunes cult members, who called themselves Church of God in Christ through the Holy Spirit Incorporated, not kidding about the incorporated part, that's a nice touch, moved to the remote Buffalo National River wilderness in the Ozarks to await the end times, as one does when they're not playing games. They believed that the Great Tribulation was imminently approaching, a period of three and a half years of nuclear war and chaos preceding the second coming of Jesus Christ. The group was led by an unlikely duo, a 17-year-old prophet named Mark Harris and his interpreter, 31-year-old Suzette Freeman. Once they arrived in the Ozarks, Mark and Suzette declared a new prophecy, that three-year-old Stephanie Hall, daughter of cult member Goldie Hall, was possessed by the devil and had to die. Stephanie would be murdered by two members of the cult, shot eight times, unceremoniously buried in a five-gallon bucket. And then the end times really did swiftly come, for the cult at least. They were all arrested. Ultimately, Suzette Freeman would be granted immunity, three would take plea deals, and one member, the mother of the child who was murdered, would go to trial. As time passed, the memory of this horrific case faded from the memories of most of the residents of Northwest Arkansas, except for those involved, and the records of the trial and court proceedings were lost to time. Many of the records were actually quite literally lost or perhaps destroyed. And I doubt any of us, outside of a handful of people who lived in the Ozarks, near where this happened, when it happened, would know about that cult today, were it not for another story about another little girl who received a significant amount of media attention for something that happened to her in that exact same area. Over two decades later, in April of 2001, six-year-old Haley Zaga was lost for three days in the Buffalo National River wilderness, just a few short miles from where Stephanie's murder occurred. Haley's story, fortunately, was not lost. Unfortunately, did not also end in tragedy. Haley would be found dehydrated but unharmed along the Buffalo National River. And after she recovered, she told her parents a very strange story. Haley said that her imaginary friend, a four-year-old girl named Alicia, had appeared to her when she was lost and guided her to the river. That Alicia kept her company when she was scared and alone in the woods, never leaving her side. Haley's grandmother and a man involved in the search to find her, seeking to understand how a six-year-old girl descended a dangerously steep mountainside and survived three days alone in the remote woods, stumbled upon the 1978 case of the cult and found a few, quote, astounding coincidences. Is it possible that Alicia was the spirit of Stephanie Hall and that this spirit guided Haley Zaga to safety when she was lost in the woods? I know, I know. Not the kind of premise I usually toss out on this podcast. It can come across as wildly wackadoodle, but it is what some like to think. And even if it's not true, and I'm well aware there is no way to prove it is, I found these two stories and the connections between them absolutely riveting. One of my favorite subjects, based purely on being a captivating tale that I've come across in a while. This week, we'll cover the church of God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, incorporated. And yes, they are absolutely as insane as I imagine you are expecting them to be, why this doomsday cult decided to murder a little girl and then how they were caught, punished, where they all ended up. And we will also cover the story of Haley Zaga We will also cover Haley Zaga's ordeal and survival in the wilderness and the possible connections between these stories. In today's Tale of Two Girls, two separate narratives collide, two sucks for the price of one edition of Time Suck. This is Michael McDonald, and you're listening to Time Suck. You're listening to Time Suck. Happy Monday. Welcome or welcome back to the cult of the curious. I'm Dan Cummins, suck master flex, carny persecutor. A guy who struggled to stop saying, okay, last episode, okay? And you are listening to Time Suck, okay? Hail Nimrod, hail Lusafina. Praise be to good boy Bojangles. Glory be to Triple M. Thanks to the Spacers on Patreon for making it possible this month to donate in honor of Disability Pride Month and the Americans with Disability Act. $10,200 to CDA Act, a nonprofit here in Cortland, that offers adults with physical and or developmental disabilities the tools to participate in the performing arts via community theater. After attending a performance last year, Lindsay was blown away by those brave, beautiful souls. I would have liked to have gone, but not surprisingly, I was busy working on Time Suck. If you would like to support CDA Act, you have a few options. You can, of course, make your own donation. You can also, if you're local, buy tickets to this year's performance of Alice in Wonderland. If you have time or skills to share, you might also consider volunteering to learn more. Please visit cdact.com. And we added $1,600 to the scholarship fund for 2027. And that's it for announcements this week. So much story to get to. Almost everything today will happen in the timeline. We will start today's timeline with the disappearance of Hayley Zega. Before we travel back in time to the 70s to explore the origins of Hayley Zega, the Church of God and Christ through the Holy Spirit Incorporated. Can't forget they're incorporated. Before jumping into the timeline, today's research relies heavily on the recently published book, Cave Mountain, A Disappearance and a Reckoning in the Ozarks by Benjamin Hale. So, hail Ben Hale. Hale is the cousin of Hayley Zega. And he conducted extensive research and interviews to piece the story together without his research. The cult aspect of the story would just not be possible to share. Because too much of it had essentially been forgotten. So, he did incredible work. We don't normally rely so much on a single source like this or have a single source without which the episode would not be possible. So, definitely felt right to shout him out. And just so you know, we did not only lean on this source. Dozens of newspaper articles were also referenced and they backed up much of what he found. But he was able to get so much more. And now settle in for one hell of a story. Two stories dovetailing into one in some very strange, maybe mystical ways. Trap on those boots, soldier. We're marching down a time-sucked timeline. On April 29th, 2001, 62-year-old Jay and 59-year-old Joyce Hale took their six-year-old granddaughter, Hayley Zega, on a day trip to the Buffalo National. Buffalo. Let me start that over. The Buffalo National River Wilderness. There's four words. In Newton County, Arkansas, in the heart of the Ozarks. The Ozarks is a region of Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and a small part of southeastern Kansas. The Ozarks cover a significant portion of northern Arkansas and the southern half of Missouri, nearly 47,000 square miles. And it is the most extensive highland region between the Appalachians and the Rockies. And it's beautiful. I've driven through it over the years, several times, done shows all around there. Also the setting for a fantastic Jason Booth show, in Bateman and Laura Linney series of almost the same name, a few years back. I might have to watch Ozark again one of these days. So good. There are two mountain ranges in the Ozarks. The Boston Mountains of Arkansas and Oklahoma and the St. Francis, even though it's spelled St. Francois, Mountains of Missouri. Zazie Summit, previously called Buffalo Lookout, is the highest point of the Boston Mountains at 2,561 feet in altitude, located in western Newton County. At the time of this day trip, Jay and Joyce, lived in the city of Pea Ridge, Arkansas. They owned a mechanical engineering firm. They ran from home. Jay was a, I guess, business source, as it says. I added firm. I hear engineering, I add firm. Jay was an extremely talented inventor who designed the air saw, this stack of radial saw blades that will dangle from a helicopter. Like to trim, you know, a bunch of branches that are really high up in a way that ladders just can't get to out in different places. I had no idea this was a thing. And I ended up watching some YouTube videos. It's ridiculous and awesome. He also invented the paintball gun, apparently, when he worked for Daisy Manufacturing Company, which produced the famous Red Ryder BB gun. Jay's name was listed on the patent, but Daisy owned the rights. In 2001, Jay and Joyce had been married for 40 years. They met back in 1960 when Joyce was a marketing major at the University of Arkansas. Joyce bought herself a small plot of land in Fayetteville, built a small house on it. She lived on the first floor, rented the apartment on the second floor, and she eventually rented it to her future husband. Who was a graduate engineering student. So that's pretty cool. Jay had seen her ad in the classifieds for it. Wonder if he got a rent discount for sleeping with his landlord. Jay and Joyce moved to and lived in Colorado for a few years in the 60s, but moved back to Arkansas in 1970, shortly after their daughter Kelly was born. Their first baby, a son, sadly died as an infant, was buried on their land in Colorado. Their son's death, part of the reason they ended up moving back to Arkansas. Author Benjamin Hale is the scientist and the son of Jay's younger brother. So Jay's nephew, Hale, grew up in Colorado and now lives in New York. Haley Zaga, Ben Hale's cousin, was the child of Jay and Joyce's daughter, Kelly, and her husband, Steve Zaga. The family lived in Fayetteville, where Kelly worked as an administrator for the Symphony of Northwest Arkansas, their orchestra there. Steve was a criminal defense attorney and a national guardsman. The two have since divorced and remarried. On April 29th, 2001, Jay and Joyce were married. Joyce drove to Fayetteville to pick up their six-year-old granddaughter Haley, then drove an hour and a half to the Buffalo National River Wilderness. On this particular weekend, Steve was away on duty for the National Guard. Kelly, who had a day to herself, planned to attend the Fayetteville Film Fest. And so much to do around this place. Love it. That morning, Jay and Joyce met their friends, Claiborne Bass and Dennis and Michelle Bowles. Bass and Bowles. Okay. Dennis and Michelle, fellow members of the local Sierra Club, had suggested the outing. Each year on the last weekend of April, the Newton County Wildlife Association hosted a big group hike to see the wildflowers in the Buffalo River Valley. And these folks were locked in to local community events. I like it. I feel like I'm terrible with that stuff. Before that, they wanted to hike the Hawksbill Crag Trail on Cave Mountain, located within the Buffalo National River Wilderness. Jay and Joyce thought it would be a good opportunity for Haley to get out in nature. Their daughter Kelly grew up playing in the woods on the property, but Haley grew up in a suburban neighborhood. As Joyce recalled to her nephew, Benjamin Hale, we were always looking for an opportunity to take Haley out of her urban life. And since we lived in Pea Ridge in a rural setting, her visits there were also a, were always, excuse me, a nice contrast to the life she lived in Fayetteville. There, she had all of the wildlife that Kelly had found fun when she was growing up. So having that natural setting was very important to us. We, of course, were active in the environmental movements, and it's always hard to understand what's going on. We've not had personal experience with it. Wise words. I think that sentiment goes for, you know, a lot more than the natural environment. I find people who travel more internationally care more about other countries and their citizens on average than people who do not. People who live in more diverse, diverse neighborhoods care more about people from other cultures than those who don't. On average, you know, exposure is just such an important ingredient in things like understanding, interest, and empathy. Dennis and Michelle Bowles, a friend, Chester, a retired anesthesiologist, owned seven acres with a couple cabins on top of Cave Mountain. He lived in one cabin, outfitted with modern amenities. The other cabin, called Fattest Cabin, was more primitive, but it did have a working landline. And that day, Doc Chester allowed the group to use his cabin as a starting off point for exploring the Hawksbill Crag Trail. It would be Jay and Joyce's first time hiking the trail, but the Bowleses knew the area well. They were in a remote, mountainous area with poor reception. Like, you know, poor reception for cell phones. You get to Cave Mountain by taking a narrow dirt road, aptly named Cave Mountain Road, which turns off of Arkansas State Highway 21. The Hawksbill Crag Trailhead sits at the highest point on Cave Mountain Road. The group met around mid-morning at the Hawksbill Crag Trailhead and went up a private road leading to Doc Chester's property. Doc Chester, he was home doing some work around his cabin. The plan was to take a short hike from Doc's cabin to Hawksbill Crag, a famous local landmark, to a small waterfall. Hawksbill Crag is described as, quote, a dramatic arrow of rock jutting into the air 200 feet above the forest below. The route was about nine-tenths of a mile. So, you know, not that long. Afterwards, they were going to head back to Fattest Cabin on Doc's property for lunch, then drive down the mountain to meet the group with the Newton County Wildlife Association for the Wildflower Hike. So it's like a hike to prep for the other hike. The Hawksbill Crag Trail forks a little ways down the mountain. The right fork leads to a creek and a small waterfall that has a view of the Buffalo River Valley. The left fork leads along the bluff that also looks over the valley. And from there, it's a half mile to the Hawksbill Crag Landmark. The trail officially ends at this landmark, but an unofficial trail continues along the crest of the bluff, growing increasingly narrow and precarious. Apparently, somebody literally dies on this trail every few years. How many of those people do you think are murdered by people who know how hard it is for investigators to prove that someone got pushed off a trail? As opposed to slipped. And why is that the very first thing that I thought of when I heard about this trail? I have too much true crime knowledge in my head at this point in my life. The unofficial trail eventually ends at a tree stump with a private property sign nailed to it, which was Doc Chester's property. The group departed at 1030 a.m., taking the reverse route from Doc Chester's property rather than starting at the trailhead. They gave themselves an hour and a half for the hike. It was a warm, beautiful day, about 70 degrees and sunny, so they wore light clothing and took just a bottle of water with them. Perfect hiking weather. They stopped at Hawksbill Crag before continuing down the trail to the waterfall. This waterfall, called Whitaker Creek, falls about 30 feet from a ledge with two flat shelves of rock, one from which the water falls and one 15 feet below. Locals know a way to see the waterfall by climbing down a particular tree on the lower shelf, which you jump to from the upper shelf. Obviously, that's probably not a safe route for little Haley to do this. Obvious to some, at least. She's, again, only six. Now, this is a dangerous, dangerous, dangerous little drop here to get in there. So Jay and his friend Clay Bass, they climbed down to the lower shelf to quickly see the waterfall, then climbed back up to meet the others who were enjoying the scenic view of the area. By now, it was 1145 a.m. It had taken a bit longer than they thought it would to get to the waterfall, so they knew they needed to hustle to get lunch and make it back, you know, to the wildflower hike on time for the start of that. But there was a problem. Haley was very jealous that Grandpa and his friend got to see the waterfall that she did not. So she sat down on a rock and she was able to get to the waterfall. She was able to get to the waterfall, but she refused to move. Right? Classic six-year-old behavior. If I don't get what I suddenly want in this exact moment, my life is over. Joyce told the others to go ahead. She would stay behind to walk with Haley. Only Clay Bass stayed behind with them. After imploring Haley to move, Clay and Joyce told Haley they were going to leave her. Joyce recalled, she was sitting there and pouting. And I said, you sit right there so I can tell your mother where you are when she comes to get you. We're going. Huff, huff. They walked just out of sight around the middle of the road. Haley came to them. Clay and Joyce continued around the next bend, and Haley reluctantly followed. And very different parenting perspective here than mine. Not saying they were terrible to do this, but I would not do this. When Monroe was little, she liked to go on hikes, or at least, you know, she would often think she would. And then a lot of times, you know, halfway through, she'd be exhausted and she'd start to pout. Sometimes she would protest. And do you know what I did when she did that? I forced her to finish the hike. It was actually pretty easy because she was quite small and easily overpowered. Here's the crazy thing about six year olds. Most adults are way fucking bigger and stronger than them. And we can't actually bend them to our will. We don't have to always reason with them. So, you know, for Monroe is walk or get your pouty little ass carried, maybe roughly down the trail, and then get into shit ton of trouble when you get home and have a bunch of your stuff taken away for being an asshole. Haley's grandparents, well, they were, they, they didn't do that. Uh, they just continued to like walk around the next bend and the next band and then wait, you know, be, be out of sight, and then eventually after pouting more, she would show up and they kept doing this until eventually she didn't show up. And Joyce told Clay to go ahead. She was going to go back down the trail to find Haley. But then when she went back to look for her, she couldn't find her. And that is exactly why you don't fucking leave your kids behind on a hike, right? Uh, they're, they are dumb enough to get themselves lost. Uh, Joyce went all the way back down to the waterfall. Haley was not there. Joyce didn't really become worried though, until she reached the fork in the trail. Uh, Joyce then went up the fork that leads to the trail and she went down the trailhead shouting Haley's name. Then she ran into two hikers coming from the trailhead and they hadn't seen Haley. And right now she had to have been feeling a bit sick to her stomach. Holy shit. I used to be terrified that one of the kids would wander off. Uh, Kyler, my son, he was a runner when he was little and completely oblivious to the world around him, to where any of the people he knew were. Uh, one time at Disneyland, when he was, I don't know, probably five, I went to go pay for something when he was with me in line, had to focus on the more than, I don't know, five, 10 seconds. He was supposed to stand where he was. Uh, like we were holding hands. I had to take my hand off of this transaction, supposed to stand where he was, but wandered off about five feet. And for two or three seconds, I couldn't see him. It was amazing how quickly I was almost in full on panic mode. Right after that outing, I bought one of those teddy bear backpacks that you used to see more of than you do now. It was essentially, it's essentially a leash, a leash for kids. Like he was a fucking dog. And I kept him on that leash and some people gave me weird looks, but I'm like, you know what? I don't give a fuck. I know where he is. He's not getting away now. You know, a little weird tying him up, but also kind of funny. You know, if I, if I wanted to mess with him, you know, I can, I can give him a quick little jerk backwards, knock him over. Not that I did do that in public. May have done it at home a few times and we would laugh. Uh, Joyce and those hikers who hadn't seen Haley spread out, uh, and started, they started looking, uh, for her down the trail. And now Joyce began to panic. Uh, she spent 15 minutes searching for Haley and what she now thought was the wrong direction. So they ran ahead along the bluff, found clay bass on the trail, told him Haley had disappeared. Then they ran together. You know, they're yelling, Haley, Haley, everybody's starting to panic. Uh, they find Jay and the boluses, uh, who weren't that far ahead. They're all yelling now. They're all panicking the beautiful, relaxing hiking day, fucking a nightmare. Uh, Michelle and Dennis went back to the cabins on doc Chester's property to see if Haley had somehow gone there. Uh, others spread out looking for her doc Chester reported. He had not seen her. Michelle remained at fattest camp to be there in case Haley turned up there. Dennis Bowles got in his car, started searching along County road, four Oh six, this private road that leads down from Cape mountain road. Uh, he also wanted to get a look at a small parking lot, the trailhead to see if there were fewer cars parked there than he remembered from the morning. And he wrote down all the license plate numbers. Good move. Uh, doc Chester went inside to call Tim Ernst, his neighbor who lived just down the road. Tim lived in a cabin on the edge of the bluff on the South face of Cape mountain. Tim grabbed his dogs, headed West along the bluff until he got to Hawksbill crag where he encountered Joyce and a couple more hikers. She ran into at the landmark. One of the hikers allowed Joyce to use their cell phone to call 9-1-1 since joyce didn't have one the reception was so poor joyce could hear dispatch but they could not hear her holy fuck that would be maddening uh joyce returned to fattest cabin to use a landline there to call 9-1-1 this time thankfully the call went through at this point it had been a little over an hour since they'd last seen hayley my god i'd be out of my damn mind hayley's parents kelly and steve zega had cell phones but they were still fairly new and joyce did not know their numbers joyce seems like a really nice person in a future uh you know interviews and stuff but she fucked it this day her and her husband fucked it they had fucking no cell phones they didn't know the fucking parents phone numbers and they weren't paying that close attention to hayley uh my god joyce wanted someone to be there with her daughter kelly when she found out so joyce called kathy bass the wife of clay bass who decided not to hike with him that day joyce explained the situation asked kathy to go to the fayetteville film fest to find kelly and drive her to cave mountain not exactly a fun task hey um uh how attached to hayley are you well well your your folks kind of lost her accidents happen oh man before her world turned upside down kelly had been having a nice relaxing day to herself steve was away for his annual two-week national guard training at fort chaffee uh he was supposed to be gone for another week an hour into the film she was watching at the film fest uh kelly heard a pa announcement asking her to go to the back of the auditorium she saw kathy bass and fran alexander whom kathy had picked up along the way uh kathy told kelly that her daughter hayley was having the time of her life in the woods playing hide and seek with me mom peepa and she wanted mommy to come find her right now so please come and play okay don't ask questions uh no of course she told her that hayley was lost in the buffalo national river wilderness and people were on the mountain looking for her that they needed to get some of hayley's clothes for search dogs and drive up to cave mountain uh kelly said sure thing she just wanted to finish the movie first it was moholland drive it just came out all right don't judge her it's hard to pull away from uh no she left right away as they drove kelly tried to call steve to tell him what was happening he was in a metal building with poor signal took a few tries to get the word out he immediately was granted emergency leave to help with the search which is the right call uh when steve answered kelly's call he was uh with an earshot of his friend vixen james an active duty member who lived at fort chaffee a vixen also left to help with the search uh which is awesome also vixen uh unusual name for a man uh sounds like a badass female superhero i mean the word literally means a female fox or quote a spirited or fierce woman especially one seen as sexually attractive naming a boy vixen it's kind of like naming a girl gigolo it's just you know it's confusing this is my daughter gigolo this is my son dominatrix uh yeah we don't follow rules in this family fuck social norms uh yeah we don't follow rules in this family fuck social norms meanwhile up on cave mountain authority set up a command center at cave mountain church tiny one room wooden building near the hawksbill crag trailhead uh kelly found her mother joyce in the small church parking lot uh kelly recalled the author benjamin hale and what i remember so distinctly was she came up and she just said will you ever forgive me and i remember very distinctly saying fuck no you fucking idiot how could you fuck this up so bad uh no she said there's nothing to forgive i'm not angry at all and i wasn't I knew she was terrified and horrified and just frantic and my mom she's pretty high-strung anyway So when you add that level of fear on top of that, she was just beside herself And I felt so bad for her even though I was scared to death myself Then pretty shortly after that zega got there I do remember really worrying that he was going to be mad at my parents and that he was going to lose it on them But that is now what happened at no point did anybody express anger to them and at no point did he make him? Uh me feel like he was angry with them well Uh better them than me good on them. I think I probably would have lost it on them Which I don't know i'm not even saying that's the right call, but I just know myself. I know how I get in these situations I know my expectations for others in situations like this and if I would have found out what happened the circumstances of how they lost them I think I would have fucking blown a fuse. Uh, the authorities would not allow kelly to join the search They wanted her to stay put so they could uh find her if she got no information or if they did That's brutal for her Uh by 9 p.m. There were helicopters with heat sensors flying across the valley Word had also gotten out to local news a sheriff's deputy approached kelly told her that a woman named colleen nick Was on the phone and wanted to speak with her and kelly knew who colleen nicka was Uh colleen's daughter morgan had been abducted in alma arkansas in the summer of 1995 alma not that far away Kelly was home on maternity leave when it happened and she'd spent a lot of time watching the news So she always felt like she had a connection to colleen and morgan, but right now this pissed kelly off She explained When they told me that colleen nick, excuse me had called and asked permission to speak with me It actually pissed me off a little bit because of course, I didn't know her. I had sympathy for her, but i'm like Hayley has not been abducted. So why are you calling me? It was kind of a strange reaction. It was just irritation what I felt I felt like by her calling she was somehow implying that hayley was truly disappearing And I was just like that is unacceptable. That is not the way i'm thinking and i'm not going to I mean I get it. I think I might feel that same way Uh, but kelly's conversation with colleen actually ended up being a good one Uh calmed her down a bit colleen offered to come out and help kelly any way she could which is amazing Uh tim ernst offered to let kelly and steve stay the night in his house so they could stay in the area When kelly and steve were alone together for the first time that night kelly completely broke down overwhelmed by grief I mean, how could you not be? I imagine a part of you would not want to sleep Uh, you know until she was she was back in your arms to run yourself just ragged into exhaustion Which actually would have been a lot of fun Would not help The next morning steve zega went out to continue helping with the search by day two authorities were facing a problem a good problem But still a problem. There were now literally hundreds of people searching for hayley It was amazing that so many people came out to help with the search and so fast But it created logistical challenges on the mountain a local soybean farmer down the road from cave mountain allowed volunteers to camp in his field A restaurant sent trucks of food up the mountain to feed everybody and the national guard and red cross set up field kitchens However, the command center on cave mountain Was getting overwhelmed by people and authorities worried about a potential traffic jam on the narrow mountain roads Incident command sent a park ranger out to set up a roadblock near ar 21 Towards the bottom of the east side of cave mountain road to send new volunteers away Authorities were convinced that hayley was either still on the bluff or above it or worst case that she'd fallen to the bottom They did not think she would have tried going down on her own. The terrain was too steep They felt so they decided that looking below the bluff most likely a waste of time George stowe rains a technician with the arkansas state parks and a search and rescue expert Had been working at the hobbs state park conservation area an hour away when he received a call about a missing girl At the time he's actually training national park service staff in search and rescue George was named incident commander of this search and rescue mission He set up at the church slash command center and utilized a program called casey c-a-s-i-e three computer-aided search information exchange The program was developed at the university of arizona by mathematician david lovelock According to casey's website the program was designed to simplify most of the calculations related to managing a search emergency using modern search theory George explained this to author benjamin hale saying You put the lost person behavior in it and the age and their physical health and the weather and everything And then it starts using an algorithm to help you find the highest probability areas where you're going to find them and you take pod probability of detection with poa Probability of area and it equals pos Uh piece of shit. No, uh probability of success Uh, the program takes all that into account shows you the highest probability areas Whereas before we would have had to do a lot of formulas, uh, it does them for me, uh for you I love the amount of thought and hard work the smart people put into this stuff Uh, so when people are in some of their darkest moments of their lives, you know, they have the the best statistical odds of finding some light Uh casey divided the terrain into uh divided the terrain into segments And george assigned teams to segments beginning with the highest pos He eliminated segments as they were searched sheriff's officers park rangers police officers emergency workers came in from neighboring counties I mean, they really went after this fucking hard and quickly impressive Uh, they set up mobile cell sites to make communication easier on the mountain search dogs followed haley sent from the place She was last seen on hawksbill crag trail Down a winding path through the woods to the edge of cave mountain road where they lost it On that second day the mood turned darker and people started to worry that Haley had been abducted On the morning of the third day. I got kaylee haley's poor family Calling nick asked steve and kelly to step aside for a private talk with her and an officer Kelly recalled that they were told, uh, uh that they told her excuse me enough time had passed And because the scent trail dropped off in odd places that the likelihood of a search and rescue operation being successful Was becoming smaller They needed to redefine how they were going to approach the search They also said it was possible Haley was taken Uh, because no one could figure out how her scent had gone cold Law enforcement was organizing and I should say that, you know, the possibility of her being found Uh there Uh was becoming smaller Uh, if I didn't say that correctly the first time law enforcement was organizing a press conference to be held later that day Colleen sat down with kelly to prep her for that press conference according to kelly quote Colleen said that there was nothing stronger and more understood than a bond between a mother and child And she said you have you have been too tough and too strong to be a mother and child Too strong and too stoic for too long in this situation You you've got to show people that there's some emotion associated with this And you've got to talk about what she means to you and how you're feeling right now And then she said I now see exactly what she was telling me and why she was telling me to lose it and cry on camera and stop being so strong and stoic and upbeat about everything because if you are that, people are not going to believe you. They're going to think that you had something to do with this. And she didn't tell me that then. She just told me, people have to understand how terrible this is for you and how you would do anything to have her back home. The press conference would take place that afternoon. And before I share how it went, time for today's first of two mid-show sponsor breaks. If you don't want to hear these ads ever again, please add up to be a space lizard on Patreon. Help us make monthly charitable contributions. Get the catalog ad-free. Episodes three days early and more. Thanks for listening to our sponsors. Now let us return to that press conference. Colleen Nick started off by introducing Steve and Kelly. Steve thanked a long list of agencies and organizations that were involved in the search as well as Colleen Nick. Kelly then spoke, but instead of speaking from the heart, she fucked it. Pretty bad. Maybe it was the exhaustion. Maybe it was the nerves. Maybe she just got caught up in a moment. But instead of speaking from the heart, she just kind of randomly decided to perform a stand-up comedy routine. I guess she'd been secretly dreaming of becoming a comedian. She finally had an audience, but she bombed pretty hard with bits like, we were going to put Haley's face and reward information on the side of a milk carton, but who's drinking milk these days? Fat and slow people feasting on lucky charms and tricks, right? That's who. Am I right? They ain't finding no kids. Kid in the woods? Come on. So instead, we're going to put Haley's face on the sides of bottles of Mountain Dew Code Red and Wild Turkey Whiskey. I mean, come on. Those people are out there moving, getting shit done. Am I right? Am I? Is this thing on? Can anyone hear me? No. No, she spoke from the heart. She said, that would be so fucking ridiculous. She said at the end of her statement, and so if anyone knows what this baby is, I don't care how you know, how you find her, why you have her, where she is, it doesn't matter to us. We just want her back. She is the most important thing to us in our entire lives. And we would give up everything that we have to have this baby back in our arms and to put this, Haley's blanket, she says, back in her hands. And I would just plead that you would put her back with us. The press conference ended shortly before 2 p.m. And as Kelly was speaking to the media afterwards, two volunteers were searching the back, or excuse me, the bank of the Buffalo National River, where authorities, you know, based on that Casey model, believed that Haley would not be found. Sometimes tech doesn't always work. Those volunteers were 61-year-old Lytle James and 54-year-old William Jeff Villines. They were experienced hunters who spent their lives in the woods of the Buffalo River Valley. They were both considered true mountain men with deep knowledge of the land and tracking skills. Love this. They were also both turned away at the roadblock on the first day of the search. They showed up to help because Lytle's son, Vixen, right? There's that sexy, superhero again, sounded like he's Lusafina's sexy sidekick, called him and told him a little girl was lost on Cave Mountain. As mentioned, Vixen was Steve Zega's friend from Fort Chaffee and overheard his phone conversation when he learned that Haley was missing. Vixen thought his dad would be a great help with the search and his dad fucking owed him big time for naming him so he had a favor to cash in. At some point on April 30th, Vixen called his dad again. Lytle told his son that he and Willie Jeff had been turned away and Vixen said his dad was pissed. Vixen, got back to work with the search efforts but he felt conflicted. He worried about the authorities' faith in the Casey program. No one seemed to be considering the possibility that Haley had gotten down the mountain into the valley. He knew that his dad and Willie Jeff knew the area and could search there. Vixen decided to convince his dad to come back and get involved. Lytle, to his credit, agreed but he was firm when he said, we ain't checking in with the command center. I love this guy. Early on the morning of May 1st, the two mountain men packed some snacks they thought a kid might like as well as a camera for documentation and loaded up their two mules, Copper and Big Mama, fuck yeah, into a horse trailer that they towed to the trailhead off the east end of Cave Mountain Road. This trailhead, or this trail, excuse me, leads to a site called Bat Cave. On their mules, they went from Bat Cave Trail down an embankment to the Buffalo National River and began making their way through the valley. They treated the search for a young child as if they were tracking an animal, just getting a critter. In a later interview with Dateline, Willie Jeff recalled, we got to thinking that, well, if anything's, wounded or anything lost, most all the time they'll go down to the river. Fuck yes, Willie Jeff. They traveled along the bottom of the bluff above the north bank of the river early morning to early afternoon then went down the river. At about 1.30 p.m. they took a rest on the bank of the river then they turned around headed back in the direction they'd come searching again along the river and they were now starting to doubt they were going to find Haley down there. Along the north bank of the river they started looking for a place where they could get back up the mountain but they couldn't find a passable gap. Lytle later recalled, in an interview with Tim Ernst who published a book titled The Search for Haley, that wasn't God's plan because we never could find a place. We had to go back to the river and that's where we found the track. When they returned to an area called Doug Hollow, Willie Jeff saw a small footprint in the mud. He recalled, we weren't certain if that was a bear track because she was a small child didn't make a deep imprint but we both decided it was hers. I can't describe how rough the train is down there but we had to keep getting off our mules because it was too bad to ride. Around 2 p.m. they reached an alcove in the valley 830 feet below two miles north of the main search area. Lytle and Willie Jeff saw what looked like an old shirt washed up on the bank. They realized when they got close not a shirt not just a shirt a little girl lying on a slab of rock beside a small inlet. It was Haley. Hail Nimrod. What an incredible moment. Her shoes and one sock were next to her. Her feet were in the water. Her legs looked blue. She was not moving. They were worried she was dead because they called out. They got no response. Willie Jeff said, you're the little girl everyone's been looking for. Haley didn't move. Lytle said, your mother, father, and grandparents are waiting up the road to take you home. Haley then lifted her head and said, fuck those motherfuckers. I ain't doing shit. Tell me mom and peepaw I apologize. Take me to that goddamn waterfall. No. Haley, she called back out to them. They made it over to her. She ate some chocolate pudding they brought. Drank a bottle of Diet Coke they brought for her which is the only food she'd had in days. This poor kid. How great did these these guys also brought food a kid would want. She weighed about 50 pounds when she had gone missing but had lost seven of those pounds by the time she was found. Haley later recalled to Benjamin Hale many years later. I remember sitting on a ledge by the river and then I see the mules the people on the mules and they came up to me. People ask me all the time how did you know that they were okay? How did you know that you could go with them? I didn't have a choice. It was people. Yeah. Beggars can't be choosers, right? Probably better to be abducted even if they were creeps. Then to just what? Stay starving in the woods? Took about three hours for the Victoria's Trio to ride back up to Cave Mountain Road. There were a few points where the terrain was so steep that they had to get off the mules. Willie Jeff would carry Haley on his back. She was exhausted spent most of the ride sleeping. They originally planned to take Haley back to the parking area at the Bat Cave Trailhead and then drive her up to the command center but a few minutes after they emerged from the woods a car came up the road. Inside were three friends of Steve and Kelly. Mark and Don Gehringer and Christy Lunsford. They'd gone to get food and water were heading back to the command center. Lytle and Willie Jeff were reluctant to hand Haley off but they saw that Haley knew this group. At this time Roger Atkinson and Arkansas Forestry Commission Ranger pulled up on the road saw what was going down and at 5.18 p.m. Atkinson radioed incident command and told them Haley had been found and to prepare an ambulance. This is so awesome. Atkinson followed Mark and Don Gehringer with Haley and Christy in the back of his car. Lytle James and Willie Jeff rode their mules back down the road to the parking lot. Fuck yes. And then they loaded up and drove up the mountain. On top of the mountain the mood at the command center was low. It had been 54 hours since Haley went missing past the critical first 48 hour period where the likelihood of finding a missing person is much higher than it is afterwards. Kelly was sweeping the floor of Tim Ernst's cabin because it gave her something to do. The phone rang. Tim told her that her friend Kelly Carter wanted to speak to her. Kelly Carter was a former co-worker at the University of Arkansas and a close friend to Kelly's. Kelly C. told Kelly that they had just seen on the news that Haley had been found and wanted to know if it was true. Kelly was confused. She hadn't heard that and Kelly C. apologized profusely. Kelly didn't say anything to anybody about this call. Left her feeling pretty disturbed. She felt confident that Haley had not been found because you know she and Steve would have been the first to know right? I mean she was probably completely exhausted totally emotionally drained not much of life was making sense at this moment. I can't imagine how surreal all of this would feel. Kelly was still wondering if she could tell anyone about the call when a car pulled up. Sheriff Steve Whitmull of Washington County a friend of Steve and Kelly approached her and told Kelly I got a little girl who's asking for her mama. Kelly leapt at him hugged him so hard that she hit her face on his elbow and gave herself a black eye. And I gotta say that made my eyes missed a little bit when I first read it. Man I can't imagine the relief and gratitude you would feel in a moment like this. Sheriff Whitmull drove Steve and Kelly to Cape Mountain Church where they reunited with their daughter who was a sitting in the back of an ambulance. Haley appeared dazed was not talking but appeared unharmed. She was treated for dehydration at the hospital but experienced no additional health problems and was released the very next morning. And now she's a healthy and seemingly happy young woman. I found her on Instagram she posts pretty regularly posted it a few days before I recorded this and yeah appears that life is going very well for her which is fantastic. Haley Zega had survived almost three days alone in the wilderness with no food she had somehow no clean water she somehow descended the steep mountain without being injured, how did she do that. Tim Ernst, the man who lived on Cape Mountain, spent much of the summer of 2001 hiking around the woods trying to figure out Haley's route, how she got down to the river. According to author Benjamin Hale, if you go up Hawksbill Crag Trail from the waterfall heading north, you will see the fork in the trail. After the main fork, there are several more smaller forks that quickly rejoin the trail. Tim thought that Haley took one of these small side trails and walked right past Clay Bass, who was ahead of Joyce on the trail, without them seeing one another. Perhaps she was not able to catch up to Clay or Joyce because she was a lot smaller. At that time of year, Haley went missing. The woods are thick and full, which muffles sound, reduces visibility. Tim suspected that when Joyce was searching for Haley on the section of the trail that leads to the trailhead, Haley kept following the trail along the bluff and missed the spot where the others turned to go back to the cavern. She likely followed the trail past the no trespassing sign and onto Tim's property. And Haley did tell Benjamin Hale years later, I didn't see any houses because I had a. because if I had seen any sign of people. I would have, you know, gone to the people. Hale wrote that shortly after Haley was found in 2001, though, she told adults about seeing a house where it looked like no one was home and walking past it. So maybe she just didn't quite remember that later. Haley may have passed the cabin, started following a narrow game trail that led north of Tim's cabin, where the slope decreases enough to climb down into the part of the valley called Doug Hollow. Haley is certain she climbed down on the first day, then walked until she got to the river. She told Benjamin Hale when he interviewed her, I made it to the river that first day. I just remember walking, and walking, and walking. And I still had this belief that I was going to walk myself out of the woods. And I remember there was these gnats that would fly in front of my eyes and it was pissing me off. I was getting angry at all these bugs for flying in my eyes. Yes. So I would swat at them. And I was getting very hungry, but I didn't know if anything was safe to eat. So I didn't try to eat anything. I remember climbing down a very steep incline. I didn't know that there was a river, but I got down the incline. I walked a couple of yards and all of a sudden through the trees, I remember seeing, I probably heard it first. I could hear the water, and then I remember seeing it through the trees and seeing the light shine off the water. And I was like, okay, river. So I went to the river and I remember there were helicopters that were flying over. I was this inexperienced. I didn't know if it was normal for helicopters to be flying over the forest. I didn't know they were looking for me. I just thought, okay, well, if there are helicopters, it would probably be good if they could see me because this is a sign of people. So I started shouting my name and I was throwing sand in the air to try to get them to see me, but they never did. But then once I got to the river, I had a new plan. My plan was, and honestly, not to discount myself as a kindergartner, I don't know how I knew this, but rivers always eventually lead to a bridge or civilization. So follow the river. It'll lead to a bridge. It'll lead to a road and the road will lead to a gas station. And I will call my parents. That was my plan. As soon as I found the river, follow the water. That is awesome. And that is exactly what my dad taught me growing up. You know, my grandpa, I'm sure others, I spent a bunch of time alone in the woods when a little older than this, you know, at least when I was alone. You know, 10, 11, 12, somewhere around there and up. And it was always, if you get lost, you go down into the ravine and you keep going down, right? If you can't find a river, you will find a creek. The creek will lead to a river and the river will lead to people eventually. Haley spent the first night lying on top of a flat boulder beside the river. She did this because she wanted to be in the most visible place possible for helicopters, right? Smart kid. The helicopter was flying over the valley all night, but they never saw her. This might be because boulders absorb heat, right? And they never saw her. And they have these heat sensing devices. Remember, boulders absorb heat from the sun, stay warm after nightfall. The heat signature may have concealed the heat signal of Haley's body. In the morning, Haley continued walking. On the second night, she saw a hazy ring around the moon. Remembered her mom telling her that this was a sign rain was coming. She climbed up the east bank and took shelter in a small cave. She recalled about that night. I don't think it was good sleep. It was sort of like a stupor, basically. It was not restful sleep. She continued. And then the third night, she was in a small cave. She was in a small cave. The third day, it was more of the same. Just keep walking. And then she said she started to hallucinate. I hallucinated people in the trees. I hallucinated family members. I hallucinated a valley full of flamingos. I just remember coming around to bend in the river and the flamingos were everywhere. I don't know when. It could have been day two. It could have been day three. Honestly, once I got to the river, the days were kind of monotonous. I wasn't really doing anything to distinguish one from the other. The path Haley most likely took from the waterfall down to the trail used in the 19th and early 20th centuries when people resided in the Buffalo River Valley before it became a national park in the 70s. The path most likely became overgrown after the NPS forced residents out. Tim Ernst believed that the mule trail evolved into a game trail and only people with keen eyes can see it. Benjamin Hale writes that the route Haley took is about two miles, but the last half mile descends down a pretty precarious slope. Haley walked along the river, swam across it several times when the water was deep and the current was fast. She believed she was walking in the same direction the whole time, but according to Hale, it's possible she got turned around, doubled back more than once. After spending a couple days at home, Steve and Kelly decided to leave town after all this and go on a family trip. They asked Haley where she wanted to go, and she chose the Gateway Arch in St. Louis, which they'd visited during a prior family vacation. They spent a long weekend in the city, and then Haley went back to school on Monday, and it was during the drive to St. Louis that Haley first talked about this imaginary friend, Alicia. She has maintained, in all the years since, that Alicia was four years old, that she had long, dark hair and pigtails, wore a red shirt with purple sleeves, red pants and white sneakers, and that she carried a flashlight with her. And Haley said that Alicia guided her to the river. She told author Benjamin Hale, from the moment I knew I was lost, I had this imaginary friend. I've always referred to her as an imaginary friend, and I always will refer to her as an imaginary friend. Her name was Alicia. My mom has said this before, and I actually don't know if I agree with her on this, I think. She said she was afraid I didn't have any imagination. She genuinely was like, worried for me. I actually think that I had an extremely active imagination, but I was also very good at distinguishing between my imagination and reality. I had a very rich inner world. I loved to play pretend, loved to play dress up, but I was also very like, okay, that I pretend, and this is real. And I never had imaginary friends before this experience, and I never had any after. And I never saw this particular imaginary friend again. But I remember her name was Alicia. She had long, dark hair. She was four. She had a flashlight, and I think I specifically told my parents that she appeared to me as being four because she didn't want to scare me. I've always been someone who really likes to be in control of myself. I don't need to have control over every situation. I just need to be in control of my own faculties. So I think that her being younger than me was a way for me to still be in control. I've been asked before, did you think that she was another child? And no, I was fully aware that this was a non-corporeal being that was with me. And she was a little girl, and we had conversations, we told stories, we played patty cake, and she was just a very comforting presence. But I knew that physically I was alone. It's hard to explain. I don't know how else to say it other than she was an imaginary friend. She did guide me. I didn't know that there was a river, but she helped me find it. And I don't know if that was just me blindly walking to the woods and finding a river and attributing that to her, or if she actually guided me to the river. I did have hallucinations, but later, I had hallucinations distinctly separate from my imaginary friend that were due to the effects of exposure. I 100% did not think there was another child with me. I knew physically I was alone. And we will revisit Haley's imaginary friend, Alicia, later on in the timeline. In the aftermath of Haley's disappearance and recovery, her grandma Joyce Hale was struggling to process what had happened, struggling to forgive herself. On August 24, 2001, friend of a friend, Tim Ernst, sent Joyce an email, he wrote, Just a tiny bit of bizarre lore that we thought about last night. Pam and I were sitting around talking about Haley's Alicia, and Pam asked me if any little girls had ever been lost or died in the wilderness near there. A huge chill ran down my spine. You may recall this too. It was 20 years ago when a little girl from Springfield of all places was tortured, murdered, and stuffed in a pickle bucket and buried by a small group of cult members. The cult members were told to go to the wilderness and exorcise the demons, from this little girl. That location was just off of the K-Park Road, which is about three or four miles from here as the crow flies. I have not decided yet if I am going to dig up the specifics of this case. Wouldn't it just be crazy if that little girl's name was Alicia, or was anything like Haley's Alicia? I have not told Kelly about this, and it probably is just meaningless anyway, but just thought of the possibilities. Tim did not know the exact date of the murder. Jay and Joyce were not familiar. They were not familiar with the murder, but they were not familiar with the case at all, despite living in northwest Arkansas at the time it occurred, and that is how little exposure it got outside of the immediate area it happened in, which is surprising due to how insane this is. Joyce went to the Benton County Sheriff's Office, asked if they had any records about the murder of a young girl in the Buffalo wilderness in the 70s. There were no records, but someone in the office had a vague recollection of the case and remembered that Judge Tom Keith was involved. Jay and Joyce just so happened to be friends with this Tom. Before he became a judge, he was a Benton County Public Defender, and he was one of the defense lawyers for the only person who went to trial out of these cult members, the victim's mother. Tom Keith told Joyce that she needed to read newspaper archives from April of 1978, and then make an appointment with his secretary to talk to him. When Joyce met Tom, he told her that he believed in the mother's innocence and that her conviction was a miscarriage of justice. I could not agree less with Tom on this point. I will reveal why later on down in the Back to April 1978 and transition from a missing kid story. to a seriously batshit cult, cult, cult tale. On April 24th, 1978, 54-year-old Fred Bell, the Newton County Game Warden, and this will reconnect at the end of the timeline, these two stories. On April 24th, 1970, 54-year-old Fred Bell, Newton County Game Warden, with the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission, went turkey hunting with his good friend, Ed Burton, in the Buffalo wilderness. Around 6 a.m. that morning, they drove up Cave Mountain, or, yeah, drove up to Cave Mountain with Fred's truck, which was outfitted with a police radio, turned onto Cave Park Road, a remote forest service road that we've referenced, and parked in a clearing, which was their usual spot. That morning, they did shoot a turkey. They field-dressed it, right? Success. Then, as they were heading back to Cave Park Road, they were surprised to find a small campsite. It consisted of just two tents, a clothesline, and the remains of a fire pit. There was a small two-wheel camper trailer hitched to a tan Jeep Wagoneer. Fred was surprised the campers had gotten a vehicle pulling the trailer. Deep into the woods, the campsite was not near a trail or a water source. There were also five campers milling about. A man about Fred's age, a younger man in his early 30s who looked like a, quote, hippie, a woman about the same age, a young and described as pretty woman in her early 20s, and a child who looked to be 9 or 10 years old. Fred immediately sensed that something was off about this crew. The hippie-looking fella spoke for the group, but he seemed jittery and a little too friendly, like he was hiding something. All the others kept completely silent. The people did not appear to be related. They also looked sickly and thin. There seemed to be some tension between them. It was obvious Fred and Ed had surprised them and that some of the campers wanted them to leave. Fred introduced himself, showed them his badge, made sure to memorize the license plate of the Jeep Wagoneer, which he wrote down as soon as they got out of sight. I like Fred. When Fred and Ed reached the top of the hill, got onto K-Park Road, they glanced back, saw a 24-foot U-Haul truck that had gotten stuck in the mud. Someone had clearly tried to get it unstuck, but then had given up. And they wondered, how did that U-Haul get out onto the Forest Service Road, which was unsuitable for large vehicles? Fred took down the license plate number of the U-Haul as well, which they assumed belonged to those campers. Then he and Ed continued walking up K-Park Road to the clearing where they had parked. There, Fred used his radio to call the Newton County Sheriff's Office in Jasper and Deputy Ray Watkins answered. Fred read the license plate numbers, asked Ray to run them. He did, and the vehicles were linked to several people who had been in the car for a while. who had active warrants for their arrest out in Benton County on suspicion of child abuse. They were supposed to have two young children with them, a girl no older than five and another girl about 10 years old. Fred noted that only the older girl was with them. Fred and Ed decided to stay to make sure the group in the woods didn't leave, so they stayed where they were. Ray and the sheriff would be there soon. At the time, the sheriff of Newton County was Earl Fowler, who only lived a few miles away on Cave Mountain Road, and he hadn't come to work yet, so he was close by. Watkins left the sheriff's office, drove straight to Fowler's home. The sheriff was there with his 20-year-old son, Eddie, who was a volunteer sheriff's deputy. Newton County didn't have much of a law enforcement presence back in 1978. The county employed just three police officers, Fred Bell, Earl Fowler, and Ray Watkins. Ray had previously been a part-time reserve deputy under the former sheriff Toot Wagner. Fucking Toot! Loving these names. We've got a Vixen, now we've got a Toot. And I love this so much. It was written, it's written in the book, Toot's main source of income was a gas station. Oh, come on! Thank you, story gods. Fucking Toot, selling gas? You kidding me? Fowler, a road grad, that's so good, a road grader operator and the chairman of Newton County's Democratic Party beat Toot in the 1972 election and then offered Ray a full-time job as a deputy. Fowler was interested in the sheriff's role of collecting taxes, and he let Ray take care of most of the actual law enforcement work. Fowler, Ray, and Eddie met Fred and Ed in the summer of 1978. In the clearing off of K-Park Road, Fred and Ed led the three officers to the U-Haul. From there, they went into the woods and found the campsite, which was now empty. But the curtains in the window of the camper were drawn closed, and they could see shadows moving behind them. The five men surrounded the camper. They could hear voices inside, and they were saying some weird shit. They were murmuring in unison as if they were chanting, Colt! Colt! Colt! Deputy Ray Watkins knocked on the door, demanded they open up. No response. He knocked once again, saying, Police! Please step out of the vehicle! After a long time, the door slowly opened, and the older man stepped out, looking tired and defeated. He complied with the instructions to turn around and put his hands on the Jeep without a fight. Next, the person described as a pretty young woman hanging out with these fucking chuds, I guess, these fuglies, apparently, came on out of the camper, followed by the older girl. Neither one resisted. And then out came that damn hippie scum. The sheriff's office only had one pair of handcuffs, which Ray put on him, since the hippie seemed edgy. Ray decided he would be cuffed. Next, he had the woman in the group emerge from the camper, and then there was a long period of silence because they could tell somebody else was still inside. Several minutes passed. Ray would bang on the door of the trailer, demand whoever was inside to open up. He was met with silence, but they would still hear movement. Ed Burton led the younger girl back up the road to one of the vehicles. Eddie Fowler watched over the detainees, and Sheriff Fowler searched the Jeep. He found a.32 pistol in the glove box and a Ruger Mini in a compartment in the driver's side. Both guns were loaded. All of the officers could tell this was a strange situation, one they had never quite encountered before in quiet Newton County. Sheriff Fowler knew that he had probable cause to enter the camper, but he was worried they had more guns in there. Finally, Ray threatened to shoot whoever was inside the camper if they didn't come out. The door creaked open. Out came, to their surprise, a teenage boy. Ray now finally felt safe enough to peek inside the camper. It was full of boxes, a cot, blankets, books, 44 Magnum on one of the benches. There was no sign of the youngest child who was supposed to be with the group. None of the campers were willing to answer questions about her or really say much of anything at all. It was time to bring them to jail, but first they would need to hike half a mile to get back to the vehicles. They marched them single file. The teenage boy was in the back of the line in front of Sheriff Fowler and behind Ray Watkins. Ray recalled to author Benjamin Hale, he kept easing up behind me. I have a wide peripheral vision, and I could see him easing up. When I turned around and told him, stay back. And he said, no. And I pushed him. I said, stay back. I want you this far back. I don't want you up behind me like that. So then we walked. He's about two and a half feet from me. If he made a lunge, he might have been able to get a hold of the gun, which he hadn't, but that was beside the point. I turned around. I hit him right there where the neck meets the shoulder, took him to the ground. And I told him, now that's your last warning. You get up behind me again. I'm going to turn around and you're going to have this here pistol. It's going to be, you're going to have this here pistol. Pow. I fucking love this. Yeah. You don't get to decide exactly how you're going to be marched out of some place and arrested, right? When you're being marched out of the fucking woods, you don't get to creep up behind an armed officer and just, you know, tell him like, no, I'm not fucking backing off. Fuck you. You know, there's consequences. There should be for shit like that. Continually amazed by how many people in the world struggle to understand the basic concepts of consequence. Sheriff Fowler tasked Fred Bell, Ray Watkins, and Eddie Fowler with taking the campers to the jail in Jasper. The child was placed in emergency state custody Someone else, according to Ray Watkins, drove the five campers to Benton County later that day because there are records of them being processed there. They were confirmed to be 51-year-old Royal Harris, his stepson, 31-year-old Winston Van Harris, Royal's son, 17-year-old Mark Harris, 31-year-old Suzette Freeman, and 22-year-old Goldie Hall. And, you know, the other kid there, obviously was not arrested. I think I said, yeah, the child was placed in emergency state custody. And now we got a Royal in our little crew. We got a vixen. We got a toot. Royal, not as fun, but, you know, still a name that you don't get to hear as often. Fowler wanted to stay behind, look around the camp. He hiked back to the campsite where he saw a shovel leaning up against a tree with dirt on the blade. He searched around for a recently dug hole. After an hour of searching approximately, about 50 feet from the campsite, he found a mound of fresh dirt with a few logs deliberately dragged over it. Not good. With the shovel from the campsite, he started to dig. Got about 30 inches down before he hit something. Dug a little further with his hands, uncovered a wire handle, handle of a bucket. Pulled it up. Inside the bucket was a black garbage bag. Inside the bag, he saw two small white sneakers sticking up. Stuffed in the bag were the remains of three-year-old Stephanie Alana Hall, daughter of the 22-year-old cultist Goldie Hall. Goldie's daughter, Stephanie, again, just a three-year-old toddler, had been shot eight times before her body had been stuffed in a five-gallon bucket. You know, by people convinced this was all God's will. From the campsite, Newton County authorities confiscated 22 firearms, more than 2,000 rounds of ammo, a large quantity of dry goods and canned food, and three copies of the book The Third Step to Joyful Living, or How to Stop Worrying, by Royal and Edith Harris. This book doesn't seem to be in print any longer. It's actually been out of print so long that when you search for it, the internet is basically like, are you sure that's the name of this book? Are you sure those two fucking weirdos wrote this book? Any book. Are capable of writing a book. Maybe you should double check. We know that Royal Harris was one of the people arrested that day. Who the fuck was Edith? To understand what led to the death of Stephanie Hall, we need to go back further in the timeline. And we will, after our second of two mid-show sponsor breaks. Thanks for listening to those sponsors. Hope you heard some deals you liked. Now let's go back further in the timeline and meet Edith's oh-so-crazy-ass. Edith Otelia Aaron, later Edith Harris, was born in 1926 in Navarro, Texas, daughter of Reverend James Aaron, a Methodist. minister. Edith's son, Mark, would later come to believe that she was sexually abused by her father. What? A pastor? Blessing someone? Nope, I don't buy it. She once told him about a childhood memory of when she walked into a room in her parents' house on a Sunday afternoon. Many congregation members came there for lunch after church. She saw a little girl in her father's lap. He was stroking her bare leg in a way that made Edith feel jealous. Mark suspected that something had happened with her father that she would not tell him. No way, Mark, impossible. In June of 1944, Edith married her first husband, Gobe, Gobe Smith Jr., an army captain from Georgia. Now we got a Gobe, we got a Gobe and a Toot and a Vixen and a Royal. What's next? Actually, another Gobe, a third Gobe, technically. Their son, Gobe Smith III, born in November of 1946, and it is apparently Gobe, not Job. They moved every few years, when Gobe was transferred to a new base. Edith was said to have exerted tremendous domination over her son, was an excessively religious person. That's a funny way to describe someone. Is she religious? Oh, oh yeah, excessively. Public defender Douglas Wilson, who later represented Gobe Smith, the son, recalled how Gobe Jr., the husband, told him that during his 12 years of marriage, quote, they would join one church and then another. And after a short period of time, she would find herself in disagreement with whatever doctrine prevailed in that church and would attempt to tell them what the true path was. And they didn't agree with it. So she would cut herself off from them. And eventually it led to the founding of her own church, where she could have total dominion over doctrine. Oh, we've been down this road before. Only maybe my favorite road, cult, cult, cult. In 1956, it became clear to Edith that her husband, Gobe, was not in agreement with her relationship with Gobe. Gobe Smith Jr., the son, Gobe Smith Jr., was not in agreement with her religious beliefs. Fucking Gobe. Gobe, you goob. She left her husband, cut off all contact with the Gobester, and took her son to Texas. Obviously the right call. Gobe would have no contact with other Gobe for the next 22 years. After Edith returned to Texas with Lil Gobe, that was his rap name, Lil Gobe, who was nine, she met Royal Winston Harris. Royal was born on January 27th, 1928, grew up on a farm near Tyler, graduated high school in 1945. He was a member of the Air Force while studying at Texas A&M, later claimed to be a veteran of World War II, although this was almost certainly a lie considering his age. Even if he had enlisted immediately after graduation and was deployed immediately after his training, immediately after his training completed, any fighting would have been over by the time he made it somewhere. Royal, that fucking liar, and he is a piece of shit, graduated from A&M with an engineering degree in 1949, lived with his parents and younger brother on the farm, worked as a clerk in his family's store, worked about 84 hours a week according to himself. 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. Not exactly a life fit for royalty. We don't know exactly how Royal and Edith met. Perhaps they met at the store, perhaps in a local church, maybe they both fell into the same sewer, just started fucking like the dirty animals they were. On April 26th, 1957, Edith married Royal at a Baptist church in Chapel Hill, a small town outside of Tyler. Edith took the last name Harris, changed her son's name to Winston. Edith married Royal at a Baptist church in Chapel Hill, a small town and that is so fucking weird. Gobe III was 10 years old. He'd been Gobe. He'd been a Gobe for a full decade. And mama's now is like, nah, that's over. You're Winston now. Okay, family lived in Tyler in the late 50s, early 60s. Edith and Royal's son Mark was born in 1960. Royal then got a job as a systems analyst at the Ethel Corporation based in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Mark's big brother, half-brother, Winston Van, the artist, formerly known as Gobe Trey, graduated from high school in Baton Rouge in 1964, enrolled at Harding College, a small Christian college in Searcy, Arkansas. Two years later, he joined the army, rose to the rank of first lieutenant, served three years at the demilitarized zone between North and South Korea. He was honorably discharged and returned home with his wife, Mia, a Korean woman. While he was away, Edith Harris became increasingly isolated from her extended family. What? Her? And more obsessed with her odd and extreme interpretations of Christianity. She also dealt with some sort of chronic illness. She experienced chest pain due to a weak heart, frequent migraines due to a weak brain, chronic pneumonia due to a weak fucking soul. She had spent a lot of time in bed in pain. If only she had died. She struggled to sleep because of nightmares. The only thing that helped was vodka. Mark said his mom drank every night until she passed out. She truly should have been committed to someplace for her mental and physical health. Or faith healed. There was an evangelical faith healer in Baton Rouge, named Ray Hubbard. And one day, the family attended Hubbard's tent revival. And he laid his hand on Edith's forehead and, quote, pushed the love of Jesus into her. She fell back, stood up, and declared, chest pain's gone. Eventually, it would return. But her miraculous healing sent Edith into a renewed religious obsession, as if she needed that, that eventually led to her founding her own church. I have a strong suspicion that most of Edith's physical ailments were due to her mind. As her physical health worsened again, she became more obsessed with studying Christianity. She became more and more obsessed with studying Christianity. Meanwhile, Royal Harris's parents started a trucking company that was doing pretty well in late 60s. So he quit his job at the Ethel Corporation. The family sold their house in Baton Rouge, and they moved into a trailer on his parents' property in Tyler. Royal got his trucking license and spent the next few years driving around the country. Probably greatly enjoyed the break from his fucking insane zealot wife. Edith remained at home, continued studying doctrine, also now cut off contact with her mom and siblings. Edith's brother, Paul Aaron, would take care of her family, and they would live with her for the rest of their lives. Paul took care of her family, and they would live with her for the rest of their lives. Paul involved in unusual religious beliefs that, in my opinion, amounted to a cult. The result was that they should consider the whole family that didn't go along with them in this belief as their enemy. At this point, which was after Van had returned from the military and married, they began to put themselves in seclusion from the family and practically from the rest of the world. Paul explained that they believed in something now called British Israelism. This theory that's been part of a fringe Christian scholarship since the 1600s. According to this theory, the ten lost tribes of Israel that were supposedly exiled from the Promised Land resettled in the British Isles and Northern Europe, meaning that the white settlers of North America were direct descendants of Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham. For fuck's sake, whatever someone's like, I really got doing some fucking deep study on all this doctrine stuff. Oh, fuck, that's probably not going to end well. This theory first became popular. Well, maybe popular is a strong word. It showed up in the U.S. in the mid-19th century. Royal and Edith may have believed, probably did believe, that they were the true descendants of the Israelites. At first, the cult consisted of just Royal, Edith, and Mark. All right, keep keeping it fucking tight. Keeping the wagon circled tight. Staying in the fam. Winston Van was maybe kind of a peripheral member, but his marriage to Mia was getting rocky, largely because of this. And then they'll, you know, when their marriage falls apart, they'll get their hooks into him further. Edith's brother Paul later testified that when their mother died in 1971, Edith, Royal, Mark, and Van did not attend the funeral. They waited outside. They showed up, but they didn't come in. This is so weird. They waited outside until everyone else had left. And then they approached the uncovered grave and they tossed a single pebble onto the casket and quote, they pronounced an anathema on my mother and her mother and Van's grandmother. Paul explained, it's a curse. The entire meaning is not clear to me, except that I suppose one who has received this curse is supposed to lose his soul. I think that would be the Bible definition of it. Mark would later explain to author Benjamin Hale, the idea of anathema, the word is mentioned in the Bible. You know, no one can turn from me with knowledge being cast into hell and blah, blah, blah. Supposedly God saying that it was a tremendous threat to anyone in the group who did not conform. This was the ultimate punishment, no redemption possible. That was my mother's death. She inculcated in us all the importance of not being sympathetic or compassionate in any way towards people. She inculcated in us all the importance of not being sympathetic or compassionate with people who reject God because that was siding with them against God. So cool, cool, cool. Good stuff. Mark also recalled that the two years they spent in Tyler were good for him in many ways. His dad was gone a lot. His mom spent most of her time in bed, you know, reading scripture. So he had his own space where he could be alone. Edith was becoming increasingly unhappy with Royal being on the road though. Mark recalled her telling him, God had sent the keys to the kingdom of heaven to my father and God was going to take them back because she was not happy about being abandoned. Fuck, so glad I did not have a parent who says shit like this. I mean, I wouldn't fucking talk to him much if I did or at all. The same year Edith's mother died, Royal had a falling out with his father over the business. Royal's father was said to be temperamental. He got into fights with the companies he did business with and with Royal. Dude was just getting it from all sides. He eventually refused to pay Royal's salary over some disagreement and Royal's brother sided with their dad. So Royal was out. Royal then liquidated the family's assets, got a loan, moved the money, back to Baton Rouge where they bought a trailer and lived in the outskirts of the city like the misfits they were. The Ethel Corporation would not rehire Royal. He struggled to find work from then on. God's will be done. Next year, 1972, Royal and Edith founded a church, kind of, technically. They registered it as a corporation, which is an interesting call. Ever the maverick, that Edith. And they named it the Church of God in Christ through the Holy Spirit Incorporated. The word incorporated in cracks me up so much It's so fucking weird I love it. They also self-published their book, The Third Step to Joyful Living, on how to stop worrying. And by publish it, I mean, they probably like, I don't know, fucking use crayons to make other copies. Author of Benjamin Hale, also unable to track down a single copy of this abomination. I would have loved to have read some passages. I'm sure they would have been quite interesting. Edith also declared herself a prophet. Fuck yeah. And prophesied that Mark, who was now 12, was also going to be a prophet. So awkward for Mark's older bro, Winston Vann, a.k.a. X Triple Gobe. He gets his name taken away, and then he gets prophet cucked? He can only sit in the corner, watch the prophet? Never gets to do the profiting? Oof. Edith now rationalized getting shit-faced drunk on vodka, just all the time, as a spiritual tool to reveal prophecies. Yeah, you can't do it when you're sober. She'd get hammered enough late at night to hear voices. Whispers would come to her right ear, not her left. And she'd repeat what she heard to Royal and tell him, Write it down. Oh, hello, alcohol-induced psychosis. Oof. Edith drunkenly prophesied that in 12 years, Germany would start a nuclear war. That would end civilization and start the Great Tribulation. This period of three and a half years of chaos in which people would fight to the death for resources. It would end with the blowing of the seven horns and the opening of the seven seals and the fucking whispering of the seven words and the flight to the seven fucking hummingbirds and the march of the seven ants and the skipping of the seven kids and the, uh, fucking seven pieces of fucking candy floating through the air, caught by seven hands and fucking seven, seven, seven, seven. And the second coming of Christ and all the typical fucking doomsday fucking banana bullshit. She also taught Mark how to hone his gift of prophecy. She instructed him to listen in his right ear for a voice. And that was, that was pretty much it. It was just mostly, it's mostly just listen with the right ear and, and, uh, and, uh, and be drunk. Be drunk, right ear. I think that kind of covers it. Feels like it was a good idea. A quick lesson, you know, one test, one, uh, two, two questions on the final exam. Just the one test. Does God talk to you in your left ear or your right ear? Okay. Okay, good, good, good. Uh, and, uh, does God talk to you when you're A, stone sober? B, high on the devil's lettuce? C, shit-faced on Boone's farm, Strawberry Hill wine? Or D, pick C, I don't have to curse like grandma. Uh, Mark wanted to please his mom. And he later believed that her, uh, psychological priming combined with his strong, imagination produced auditory hallucinations. This poor kid. Uh, not clear how much getting, uh, drunk helped or not. Uh, doesn't know if he actually heard voice or not. He would say later. And, uh, but he did have a hard time separating reality and fantasy during this period of his life. Yeah, of course! Fucking being around her crazy ass all the time. Uh, the church and God through the Holy Spirit, incorporated, expanded between 1972 and 1976. Big period of growth. Uh, during this time, Winston Vann and his wife moved to Houston where he worked for an insurance firm. And had a part-time gig as a karate teacher. Oh, hell yeah. Uh, but then Mia divorced him. He lost his job at the firm. Couldn't make enough dough at the dojo. Moved back to Baton Rouge. Joined the church full-time. And by joined the church full-time, just, like, fucking walked in the trailer and sat down with, uh, Meemaw and Peepaw. Uh, Winston seemed to believe, uh, Mia was using him for U.S. citizenship. But Mark would think there was more to it. Uh, Mark believed that Mia divorced Vann because she had an issue with Edith's, uh, insanity. Uh, and Edith hated Mia. Because, uh, you know, Mia saw through Edith's bullshit. Imagine Edith being your fucking mother-in-law. Oh. How good would the sex have to be to put up with her fucking bullshit? Uh, Mark recalled a time when he was with Mia and saw a toy in a store window once. Mia bought it for him. Edith became furious. Uh, the two got into a huge confrontation. Uh, it was after this incident that Edith declared Mia anathema. I declare you anathema! And then Mia stormed out of the house right as she was leaving. She said, I will see your bones, Edith Harris. And that scared the shit out of Edith. Edith literally disturbed her deeply for the rest of her fucking life. Made her paranoid. Oh, that's so good. I gotta find an opportunity to say that to somebody in my life. It's a pretty badass thing to say. I will see your bones! I'll see your bones, Chuck! Uh, after the divorce, Winston Vann got a job as an assistant bookkeeper at a trucking company where he met his second wife, June, uh, who joined the church with him. Poor June. Uh, Royal was named pastor of this church, which is, it's not a church. Winston Vann is assistant pastor. Uh, leading a church with one member who's not blood, but is married into the fam. That's about as, uh, an impressive of an accomplishment as being the principal of a homeschool. Uh, rather than preaching, Winston Vann took care of administrative tasks such as paying bills, filling out legal paperwork. How much fucking paperwork could they have? They got five members. According to Winston Vann's future defense attorney, quote, he was less fortunate than Royal and Mark because, as I understood it, in his mother's eyes, he was tainted with the blood of his natural father, who was not one of the faithful. Ah. Uh, Royal might have been the pastor, but Edith was the, was the one in charge. Five members. Three of them are in leadership positions. One, one's a prophet to be. Like, the fourth. Only June is the plebe. This is more of an absurd comedy sketch than real life. That's like the Children of Thunder from forever ago. Uh, according to Mark, he, he, quote, always wanted to be He always went along with everything that Edith prophesied. Of course, she would insist that he was the head of the household, just like the Bible says, but in reality, she was the one in control. Uh, she was extraordinarily powerful in ways of convincing people that she had a red phone direct to God. Well, she convinced a few people. She didn't get, let's be honest, she did not convince that many people. She convinced a small, very fucking tiny handful of people, most of whom were close relatives. Uh, although he was the favorite child, Mark was not immune from his mother's wrath. When he was 15, she threatened him with dun-dun-dun anathema. I threaten you with anathema! Why? Uh, because Mark liked to draw, and he was obsessed with sex. Yuck! He sketched drawings of nude figures based on photos of ancient statues. That's seriously what he did. Holy shit! How dare he be interested in something natural and healthy. Uh, one of his drawings showed a woman's backside. Her buttocks! Okay? Uh, with this woman looking over her shoulder. At the, at the viewer. According to Mark, quote, my dad was snooping through my stuff and found my drawings and found that drawing and decided I was a homosexual. Uh, what? I mean, I knew these people were idiots. But were they stupid enough to believe that, uh, a boy liking a woman's ass made him gay? Uh, yes. 100%. They were actually that stupid. Absolutely that stupid. Uh, dumber even. Uh, his parents told him that if he continued what he was doing, he would have to leave. He'd be exiled. He would never be allowed back. They were going to banish their son. Because of one lady butt sketch. Mark told author Benjamin Hale, I wasn't a homosexual. Uh, I'd never even thought of that stuff. But they sort of convinced me that I was a homosexual. And that I was going, God, this fucking poor kid. And that I was going to be, uh, uh, into this. If I was going to be into this. Then I should just go west. Blah, blah, blah. You can either choose to stay with us or go away. Looking back at that, it's almost unbelievable. The crazy shit that occurred. And I never told my brother that they did that to me. This was one of the worst nights of my life. And they sort of broke me. I became a slave to that cult. And. My God. Being raised in that. Oh. That level of insanity. It's psychological abuse. Uh, in the mid-70s, two outsiders named Larry and Suzette Freeman. They joined the Church of God in Christ through the Holy Spirit. Incorporated! Incorporated! Uh, what the fuck is wrong with them? Uh, Barbara Suzette, Klein Peter. Yes, Klein Peter. Later, Freeman was born on February 27th, 1947 in Gros Tete, Louisiana. The oldest of nine children. Uh, she came from a prominent family with a history in the U.S. dating all the way back to the 1600s. Another branch of her family owned a successful dairy farm. Uh, Suzette had a poor relationship with her mom, Barbara Landry Klein Peter. Barbara struggled with alcoholism, died of complications, diabetes. Diabetes. Caused by her alcoholism in 1975. Uh, Suzette often told her brother Jerry and her sister Frida, uh, who she was closest to, that her mom was jealous of her. Some thought it was because Suzette was widely recognized as a, as a real beauty. What a weird name. What a weird thing to punish a kid for. Uh, author Benjamin Hale viewed her high school yearbook photo, uh, described her as looking like, uh, Natalie Wood in Splendor in the Grass. Uh, Suzette hated her mom so much that she moved out, spent most of her childhood living with her maternal grandparents down the road. Uh, only moved back in after mom died when she was in high school. At the age of 20, Suzette married Robert Dardenne, also from Gros Tete, town of about 700 people then. Their daughter, Dacia, born in 1970. Uh, they divorced not long after her birth. A few years later, Suzette met and married Thomas, Thomas Larry Freeman, a Vietnam vet. Larry had two young sons from his previous marriage. Suzette grew up Catholic while Larry grew up Southern Baptist. Uh, after getting married, Suzette shifted towards non-denominational evangelical Christianity. Uh-oh. Uh, that is objectively where most of the crazy comes from. Uh, that's where you find a lot of backwoods Bible talk. Uh, she and Larry began attending church at the, uh, Family Worship Center, uh, church in Baton Rouge led by radio minister Jimmy Swaggart. First cousin of rock star Jerry Lee Lewis. Uh, Swaggart became a famous television evangelist whose career was derailed in the 80s due to, what? A scandal with a sex worker? A televangelist getting caught up in a sex scandal? I don't buy it. Uh, Suzette's brother Jerry believes that she and Larry met the, uh, crazy-ass Harris's through Swaggart's church in late 1975 or early 1976, which, you know, does sound right. Uh, on brand. Uh, Suzette and Larry got married in 1976. For a while, the church consisted of the three married couples in Mark. Explosive growth. They're up to seven. Uh, they met at Royal and Edith's home. or at larry.com Suzettes. They read from the Bible, sang hymns, discussed scripture, sometimes talked about their lives. Edith would also, you know, speak in tongues as the headliner. Edith introduced the outsiders to her prophecies, of course, and the concept of declaring someone anathema, which was her superpower. Later in 1976, though, Edith died. Died of a heart attack at just 50 years old. What?! I thought God had important plans for her! What the fuck?! Ah, it's crazy. Mark believes Edith intentionally drank herself to death. He would later say, I'm convinced she willed herself to die because I believe that she realized unconsciously or subconsciously that it was going to be revealed that these events she foretold would not happen. And rather than face that and be abandoned by everybody, or perhaps be committed to a mental health facility, she really wanted to die. Edith was so paranoid, apparently, over her ex-daughter-in-law's curse, right? I'll have your bones, or whatever she said, that before she died, she insisted she did not want a gravestone, so Mia could not find her, break into her casket, and get a hold of her bones. She truly should have been institutionalized. After Edith died, the group was left in limbo. There was a power vacuum. A small power vacuum in this fucking pathetic little group that Suzette took over, and then she transformed the group into a true cult, apparently. And I didn't see that coming. Right? This new young gun, no blood of Edith, coming in and just fucking seizing the Iron Throne. I would have guessed that Royal, as a co-founder, would have taken over, but apparently he didn't have the charisma, or confidence, the swagger, the vibe that Suzette did. Royal did keep his position as a pastor, so that's good for his ego. Mark also remained the prophet. Nice, nice, nice. Suzette now took on the role of interpreter, but really leader. Mark said that Suzette, quote, was every bit as fanatical and domineering as my mother had been. Mark continued listening for prophecies. Suzette told the group what he heard, or he would go into a trance, and say, speak in tongues, and then Suzette would translate that for everybody. So really, she controlled, sounds like most of the prophecies, since that's how the tongues parlor trick works. Under Suzette, Winston Vann's role evolved. During his time in the army, he served as a platoon leader, a reconnaissance ranger, and led exercises and survival training. He became God and Stuff Incorporation's drill sergeant. So that's fun. He taught church members how to survive in the wild in the aftermath, you know, in the coming nuclear war. So they have a great squad now. A real A-team, running the show. After Edith died, the Church of God in Christ, through the Holy Spirit, incorporated, acquired two more members, a dude named Johnny Stablier, and 20-year-old Goldie Hall. We don't know much about Johnny, but we know a lot about Goldie. Goldie had a daughter, as mentioned, the young Stephanie Alana Hall. Membership had dropped, down to only six, but now skyrocketed, back up to eight. Eight and a half, kind of. Goldie Hall, born in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 1956, grew up on her family's farm somewhere nearby. Author Benjamin Hale, trying to protect her identity because, in my opinion, he fell for her manipulations, gave her a fake name in the book and claimed that she grew up in a town that does not exist in Louisiana. By the end of this episode, I will make it very clear, many times, why I do not think she deserves to be the only person in the story whose identity has been hidden. She was the youngest of five kids. During her freshman year of high school, she fell in love with Gary Hall, who was a grade older, married him shortly after high school graduation. Then on almost immediately, Gary began to physically abuse her, isolate her from her family, who lived just a few miles away, possibly. I truly, by the end of this episode, came to a point where I'm like, I do not trust a fucking word this lady says. But that's what she wrote, the author Benjamin Hall. She wrote, many times my dad would come to my house and I would pretend I was not at home because I did not want him to see my face black and blue and eyes swollen shut. I was not raised in a family that was abusive like that. At that time, I was pregnant with Stephanie. Stephanie was born November 2nd, 1974. A few months later, Gary left Goldie for another woman. Possibly. This is all coming from Goldie. She wrote, so here I was with a child. I was a child, with a child, devastated, didn't know where to go. Goldie and Stephanie moved in with their family for about a year, she said, after her divorce was finalized in 1976. Goldie went to an employment agency in Baton Rouge looking for work, and there she met June Harris and Suzette Freeman. Goldie told Benjamin Hall, they sent me on a couple of interviews and I think I got a job. I can't even remember where the hell it was at now, but then they would start wanting to know how I was doing because they never knew the situation or because they knew the situation I was in and they knew that I had a baby and they kind of drew me in when I went to Suzette's house and they were talking about their church and I at the time, I was so beaten down by my husband and then you had this little light, that's how they kind of put me in there, how I got involved with them. I was young, stupid, I've been in a beating relationship and just so far down that I didn't even hardly know my own damn name and so it was like, they just kind of sucked me in there and that kind of shit sadly does happen to people all the time, but again I don't know if it happened to Goldie over the next year, Goldie says she got more involved with the church, didn't officially join until after Edith died she said she moved out of her family home, lived in an apartment nearby, somewhere in Louisiana it seems and soon, Colton cooperated, began isolating her from her family Goldie recalled, it was days that I sat in the chair and it was like that toward right before we left, your parents don't love you, they're bad for you, you can't talk to them, you can't see them early 1977 I mean, and again, maybe this happened or maybe she read about that's what happens in cults and claimed all this stuff in early 1977, the church decided to move to Arkansas, quote, because of such and such tribulation and this kind of stuff according to Goldie and that is a pretty good quote such and such tribulation, that's a good way to put a lot of shit that happens, that goes on in a cult so what was going on at that point ah, fuck, I don't know, such and such tribulation you know, trials and sodomites and blah blah blah uh, the leaders intended Arkansas to serve as their last stop before they moved into the wilderness to wait out the nuclear war they believed would mark the start of the great tribulation uh, they needed to hide from bandits and warlords uh, who would take over in the three and a half year period before the second coming of Christ the end of the world, fucking bandits and warlords, that sounds exciting that sounds almost as exciting as, uh, witches and warlocks witches and warlocks are full of shit, pumpkin pops I'm sick of it you keep interrupting, then all of it's locked because you're lying that's why I will never get tired of hearing that uh, I love that The Onion is running Alex Jones' uh, Infowars now, by the way so good uh, the cult soon moved from Baton Rouge to Northwest Arkansas with plans to settle in the Ozarks they towed a trailer Royal owned, parked in the Midway Trailer Park in Springdale they rented a trailer next door, also rented an apartment in nearby Rogers, Arkansas Royal and Mark lived in one trailer, Winston Van and June lived with their young son, Matthew David in another, Goldie and Stephanie lived in the camper, parked in the driveway so they're crushing it the fucking high life, they are living the high life, just as Steve, just as prophet Steve Winwood once prophesied you'll be back in the high life again all the eyes that once was once will smile and take a sip oh I love that song, uh, the Freemans and, uh, Johnny Stabler lived in the Rogers apartment, Suzette later ordered Goldie and Stephanie to move into that apartment with them, guess they needed to sell the camper or prepare it for something else or something uh, the church would spend a little over a year in Northwest Arkansas, during that time Goldie claimed she had three jobs she said she worked for a Tyson Poultry Processing plant and, also, at Long John Silver's, and also waitress at a diner, and all the money she made went to Cult Incorporated you'll be back in the high life oh, fucking what a life, yes! all the eyes that once was once will smile and take a sip all because of delusion Van also worked at Tyson apparently, uh, Winston gave all his income to the church Mark Harris dropped out of school and worked part-time as a donut delivery driver everything's working out for everyone, it's going very well for everyone you'll be back in the high life again uh none of the other members apparently worked at all glory be to God, and young Stephanie was often left in their care, one of the cult members would always drive Goldie to her jobs, pick her up she claimed, she had no freedom, she said I was so scared of these people, you couldn't go nowhere, you couldn't call your family, my family didn't know where I was at, and I had wrote letters uh, even after all this happened, I know I told my sister, I wrote you letters and she said I never got them, so I wrote the letters but they wouldn't send them, they would destroy them they took all my stuff, I came home from work one day Suzette had sold my wedding ring, my graduation ring, and all my clothes all your clothes! a lot of hyperbole, I feel like goes on here it's like, I worked a thousand hours a week and they, uh, I, you know my eyes were constantly swollen shut, all the time from never-ending meetings and, you know, and I was, I could literally never they were always watching me, really at fucking Long John Silver's when you're I probably come across too hateful towards her right now but you'll see later, I fucking think she fucking lies every time she fucking says anything and I think the reason she does that is because she cannot face the fact that she was very complicit in getting her fucking daughter killed and letting her daughter be beaten during this year-long period, Goldie's young daughter Stephanie suffered physical abuse at the hands of cult members Suzette was known for saying things like it's better to be black and blue on the outside than black and blue on the inside holy shit, uh, savage June Harris later testified that sometime in late March of 1978 a meeting was called about little Stephanie during the meeting, according to June, Mark Harris put a pot on the coffee table set a fire in it ordered Goldie to burn photos of Stephanie and her doll Goldie did so, and when the flames rose out of the pot Suzette said, that's what it's going to be like Stephanie, in hell I know Goldie's supposedly been brainwashed, but Also, other mothers have had it worse and still gotten their kids out of situations like this, or at least not allowed them to be abused like Stephanie's being abused right now. I just struggle greatly with empathy for parental weakness in situations like this. Winston Van then took Stephanie's hand, put it into the flames for a few moments while she screamed. Goldie did nothing to try and stop them, according to June Harris and others. Suzette then held Stephanie's hand over the fire again. June recalled that afterwards, Stephanie's hand was black and blistered. Again, Goldie did nothing. Her hand was placed in ice water, wrapped in gauze, but she received no other medical attention. Everyone in the cult seemed to be afraid of Mark and Suzette and Royal, I guess, who was the enforcer of Suzette's decisions in some ways that were never made explicitly clear in this. Goldie wrote an email to author Benjamin Hale saying, since Suzette supposedly was an interpreter and Mark was the prophet, I was always afraid of God. Many, many times I would have sat in a straight back chair in the middle of the floor after coming home at night from work and listing them, tell me what God was going to do to me. Over and over and over. At that time, my fear of those people and God was so great, it was like I was nobody. I honestly believed they were getting messages and if I did anything, they would know about it because God would tell them I was doomed any way I went. If any of you ever get in a position, put in a position where you have to choose between protecting your child and obeying God's will, fuck God's will. Many years later, in an interview with author Benjamin Hale, Mark recalled that the crisis that led to the cult's undoing happened a few days after Stephanie, who was burned. According to Mark, Stephanie complained to Goldie that her vagina hurt. This kid's already fucking burnt. Although she did not communicate it with those exact words, Stephanie indicated it had something to do with June Harris. Goldie confronted June. Mark remembered Goldie shouting at June, you put soap in her and slapping June. So wait a minute, so you're afraid of these people, but you're also going to slap June. But you wouldn't stop her from, you wouldn't stop the fire, but you slap, okay. According to Mark, and then June starts talking about how she was worshiping Satan and how she masturbated with the candelabra. That we used for ceremonies to celebrate the beginning of the Saturday Sabbath on Friday. What? Crazy stuff like that. And I actually do not know whether the woman was simply that crazy or if she was just making things up that would ultimately get her thrown out of the group because she was tired of putting up with us. What a wild little echo chamber these people are in. Mid-April of 1978, Mark and Suzette declared that June Harris was an anathema. No! They accused her of having an affair with a woman who lived nearby and also of worshiping the devil. And they kicked her out of the church. They kept June and Winston Van's son, Matthew David, who was only two years old. Winston gave June some money and let her take the car and she left. Another great mom move in this group. Finally, an episode with more shitty moms than shitty dads, I think. June drove all night to Baton Rouge, but when she arrived, she changed her mind, said she drove back to Rogers, Arkansas to get her son. Okay, that's a good mom move. Still overall, though, more shitty moms than shitty dads in this one. She met with her attorney, James Mixon, in Bentonville, explained some of the situation to him. Mixon called the police, told them he believed something disturbing involving young kids was happening with the group and that June Harris needed to remove her son from that environment immediately. And good job, June. But apparently you did still stuff soap in a toddler's vagina and you didn't help her not be burned. So you're still fucking garbage. Benton County officers escorted June to the trailer park in Springdale. She took custody of Matthew David. Goldie and her daughter were in the trailer when police came knocking. Goldie later recalled, and they would not let me go outside because I would have left them. I said, just let me go home. Just let me go home. Okay, Suzette said. We'll let you go home. But when the cops came to get Matthew, they refused to let me go out of the room. And the cops never came to the trailer. So it was like, oh my God, that was my chance. Uh-huh, sure, Goldie. When officers retrieved Matthew David, they took down the license plate numbers of the cars parked outside the trailer. Benton County issued arrest warrants for Royal Harris, Winston Van Harris, Mark Harris, Larry and Suzette Freeman, John Stablier, and Goldie Hall, charging them all with child abuse. When they returned, when the authorities returned to the trailer park, later that day with the warrant, everyone was already gone and one of the trailers was on fire. So I think they handled that pretty well overall. After the police had showed up the first time, Suzette told the group that Mark had received a new message from God, which she had interpreted conveniently, almost like these people are always making the shit up, that the time of the Great Tribulation had been moved up and they had to leave right away. The nuclear war, it was going to start at any moment. Germany could drop those, those fucking nukes right now and they had to get to the wilderness. By the way, while Germany does not have, nor have they ever had their own nuclear weapons, they did and do have access to them through a US-led NATO program in case you're like, what? There's, what are they, Germany? I mean, they are crazy. But technically, Germany could have broken a NATO agreement and dropped some nukes. They wouldn't have made it to the US, but whatever. Anyway, that night, Goldie and Stephanie checked into a motel outside of Fayetteville. Under a fake name, Goldie was supposed to wait while the others made arrangements to get in. To get a gun, or guns, a trailer, and that U-Haul. She acknowledged this was another missed escape opportunity later, saying, I've had many people ask me, why didn't you leave? Why didn't you leave? Well, because you're fucking, you're such a liar. You like all this, I think. But she said, I don't know why. I didn't leave because I was scared because they watched me all the time. Uh-huh. I think, I think Goldie has convinced herself to say these things in recent years because otherwise she'd have to face the part she really played in getting her own daughter tortured and killed. I mean, if she doesn't have to take any responsibility in what happened, you know, neither does any cult member who isn't a leader who does anything terrible, right? And all the Nazis under Hitler, just following orders. They had to do whatever they did. That kind of thing. The group picked her up in the morning and they drove to the Upper Buffalo National River Wilderness. They drove up Cave Mountain Road, turned down K-Park Road until their U-Haul got stuck. They were eventually able to continue driving that Jeep into the woods to their camping spot. They ended up camping about two miles from where Haley Zega got lost decades later. Larry Freeman and Johnny Stegman were sent on a different mission. On April 21st, 1978, they drove to Columbia, Missouri, where Larry's ex-wife, Dinah Turnbull, lived with her two sons to kidnap the kids and take them to the woods to await the tribulation. Holy shit. Larry and Johnny broke into Dinah's home, tied her to a chair, and kidnapped the boys. Dinah was able to untie herself, though, called the police. Those fuckheads were arrested on the highway about an hour later and hailed Dinah. The cult members had no idea Larry and Johnny had been arrested. The other cult members Meanwhile, in the Buffalo River National Wilderness, the situation is deteriorating rapidly. Teenage prophet Mark Harris claimed that the voice of God told him, which Suzette relayed via her interpretation, so maybe Suzette really claimed this, that little Stephanie, three years old, was anathema and also needed to die. Mark maintained this reasoning, even up to a sentencing hearing. Royal Harris would later offer another explanation. According to him, they genuinely believed human civilization was going to collapse and Stephanie would not survive, so it was a. mercy killing. Fuck you, Royal. Honestly, fuck all these people. Uh, oof. Uh, Royal said at his hearing, I was acting in the belief that tribulation was starting in and that we would, in a matter of hours, be in nuclear war. And that I was going to, uh, in a, as a military commander of the group, be responsible for the protection of the whole group. And I'm an Air Force veteran and I'm very familiar with nuclear bombs and effects or results and have studied extensively what happened in Germany during World War II and I know what happens when there is a war and there is a war and when law and order breaks down, my actions were for the protection of the overall group and having a small child with us was a liability which endangered the whole group and we thought that, uh, she could not survive anyway and it would be more merciful to her to be out of it. Holy rationalization. Uh, now we are back to the morning of April 24th, 1978. That morning, Royal and Winston Vann took Stephanie about 50 feet from the camp. Hour later, returned without her. Royal Harris insisted he was the one who shot Stephanie eight times. Uh, 46 years later, Goldie told author Benjamin Hale that she and Stephanie spent the first night in the woods in a tent with Suzette and her daughter, Dacia. The next morning, quote, Suzette said Vann and Royal were going to get some water and they wanted Stephanie to go with them. He, uh, Royal or Vann, uh, took her by the hand and said, we'll be right back and then I'm sitting on this log and that's when I heard the shots. They came back, they didn't have her and I wanted to, uh, know where they were and Suzette kept telling me, you sit down and hush, just sit down and hush, it's okay, it's okay. Come on, Goldie, you knew what they did. You heard the prophecy, you let them walk off with her, you heard the shots. Uh, Goldie would claim that she did not remember much of what happened after that. Mm-hmm. Uh, that she remember, uh, she did remember that when they were arrested, they were in a camper trailer, Winston Vann was sitting beside her with a gun pointed at her, warning her not to say anything. Mm-hmm. She was grateful they were arrested, uh, she said, because if they hadn't been, she could have been killed. Ah, why would you feel fucking grateful after your kid had just been fucking murdered? Uh, Royal Mark, Winston Vann, Suzette, and Goldie were charged in Benton County with second-degree battery, quote, said to have been committed on or about April 7th, 1978. Uh, the charge was for beating Stephanie and Matthew David and burning Stephanie as reported by June Harris. Uh, within one day of their arrest, Benton County Judge W.E. Henfield granted Suzette Freeman immunity from prosecution in exchange for her testimony. No! Fucking leader got immunity, that's wild. Uh, author Benjamin Hale sought to find out why Suzette was granted immunity, not Goldie. He believes that Suzette as a powerful member of the cult and a manipulative person was simply better at talking to and manipulating people. Goldie did not know why Suzette was granted immunity and told Hale, Suzette was a whiz at this stuff. The very person who gave them the order to kill that baby and to kill me was the one who got immunity and got off scot-free. Kill me? What are you fucking talking about? Again, this is something that nobody else backed up, that she was also going to be killed. Uh, when the cult was arrested, no one made their phone call except for Suzette. She called a lawyer, David Matthews, a good lawyer. who went on to become a state representative and a special justice to the Arkansas Supreme Court back in the late 70s. He was a brand new attorney, having received his license in 1976. On April 25th, Matthews met Suzette in jail for several hours. Matthews recalled that the main concern of the police was the missing girl, Stephanie Hall. Matthews told Benjamin Hale, she, Suzette, was not being straightforward with me or anyone else. But the prosecutor was saying, we really, really need to know where the child is, what's going on. And I spent several hours talking with her and finally said, I might be able to get you immunity if you tell them what you know. And at that time, I didn't know what she knew. She wasn't telling me either. But anyway, we negotiated the immunity deal with Gary Keenan, the Benton County prosecuting attorney. After the deal was signed, Matthews and Suzette were sitting in a conference room in the Benton County jail with Gary Kennan and a state police detective when Suzette finally said, the child is not alive. Matthews told author Benjamin Hale that the time he negotiated the plea deal, he didn't know whether Stephanie was dead or alive. But the language of the immunity grant indicates that the police suspected Stephanie was dead. They just needed to know for sure. Suzette told the detective that Stephanie was buried near the campsite. In December of 2022, Benjamin Hale got into contact with Newton County Sheriff's Deputy J.D. Harper, wanted to see police records from 1978. Hale was not able to find records about the murder case. Harper told him that perhaps he could talk to Ray Watkins, the sheriff's deputy who made those arrests. Watkins was still alive, 85 years old, worked at the local hardware store. Uh, understandably, uh, his memory was a bit fuzzy about what happened back then. That's also crazy he was 85 and working at a hardware store. Uh, for example, he told Hale that it was a child's mother who got immunity, which was not correct. One thing Watkins was certain of, uh, even during follow-up interviews, was that Sheriff Fowler found Stephanie's body the day of the arrest, April 24th. He distinctly remembered that the sheriff found the body by the time he'd returned to the campsite after taking the group to jail. If Watkins was telling the truth, why did the police in Benton County not know the body had been found? Hale figured out the answer in a follow-up interview with Watkins, October 2023. Watkins thought that after Sheriff Fowler found the body, he only told Watkins in the corner. The corner came out, did an investigation, but didn't notify anybody else, which may explain why Benton County wasn't aware until the following day. April 26th, 1978, 14th Judicial Circuit Prosecutor Jerry Patterson filed first-degree murder charges against the four defendants in Newton County who did not have immunity. Uh, in 2023, Hale spoke to former prosecutor Jerry Patterson, who recounted his memories of the case and alleged that he thought there was more to Suzette's relationship with Mark Harris than the two of them let on. He said, quote, I think she was screwing him. I mean, pedophilia on brand for a cult. Cult. Cult. I guess it wouldn't technically be pedophilia if he was 17, which would have been like legal age consent, but that's close in this situation. Uh, two of Suzette's siblings also recalled that Suzette briefly dated Winston Vann before he married June and she married Larry. Uh, yep. Uh, I wouldn't doubt that either. The since Suzette married Larry, 1976, uh, possible that Suzette was jealous of June, which could have contributed to her declaring June anathema. Uh, Patterson also said that Stephanie was killed simply because Suzette didn't like her. Anytime something happened, didn't facilitate Mark's prophecies, uh, she blamed Stephanie. Back when the group was still in Springdale, Mark, uh, through Suzette prophesied that there was buried treasure in a grave on Cherokee Mountain in Tennessee. For fuck's sake. Uh, Larry Freeman, Johnny Stabler drove out to look for it, uh, dug up the grave site, couldn't find the treasure and little Stephanie was blamed. Then when the group's U-Haul got stuck in the, in the mud, Suzette blamed the devil inside of Stephanie for getting the U-Haul stuck. And then Mark and Suzette announced that Stephanie had to die in order to kill the devil inside of her. Patterson agreed that Suzette was a true leader and Mark was a pawn. Uh, he said, I think she manipulated everybody. I honestly think that she got involved with this church and she was smarter than everybody else. And she just took charge, but she's smart enough to push others out in front of her. She'd make the decisions, but the actions were done by somebody else. And she was smart enough to push others out in front of her. Just like the two guys that killed that little girl. She didn't go out there. She made sure that the prophet made the pronouncement and sent those two other guys to do it. Uh, Patterson didn't think Suzette truly believed that the world was going to end or that Stephanie was possessed by the devil, but she used the other since belief and their fear of the end times, uh, was, you know, was allowed her to control them. Uh, June 13th, 1978, the four defendants entered pleas of not guilty. The court then ordered psychiatric evaluations for Royal Mark and Goldie, but not Winston, Van for some reason. Uh, Dr. Travis Jenkins of the Ozark guidance center evaluated Goldie and Mark, and he found Goldie to be, uh, a weak ass fucking mama diagnosis coward. Uh, for real though, he did not find her to be mentally ill and she was competent to stand trial. Jenkins wrote about Mark. I've seen Mark Harris today in a psychiatric consultation. The background situation, as well as his current mental status is very complicated. It is difficult for me to make the usual determination regarding competency and the presence of psychosis based on this one visit therefore, I would like to recommend further observation and evaluation at the Arkansas state hospital. Uh, Goldie hall was the only woman in the Benton County jail at the time for arrest. She told Benjamin Hale that one of the deputies unlocked her cell, uh, sent in a male inmate and let him rape her horrible of true, but is it true? Uh, there are no records regarding this allegation, which, uh, you know, doesn't mean it didn't happen, but then she said the same thing happened again when she was transferred to the Boone County jail that, uh, some other guard there. That a male inmate in to rape her, uh, no record laid into that allegation, not saying she wasn't raped. Rape is sadly terrifyingly common. So much data out there that I've shared time and time again on this podcast has pointed to that. Statistically, the person claiming to be, uh, the victim of a sexual crime is the victim more often than not. But, but I don't know if I believe Goldie to tell me the truth about literally anything. I feel like she would lie about what color the sky was or what she had for dinner the day before. If she thought that would make me think more highly of her or feel sorry for her. Uh, in the late summer of 1970, she was arrested for and there's so much more shit that will back up why I'm thinking that, uh, in the late summer of 1978, an inmate started a fire in the Boone County jail as part of an escape attempt. While the fire was being put out and damage was being repaired, all the inmates, according to Goldie, were put into one cell. And then as she recalled, quote, they put me in the cell with all these guys around me and these guys pissed on me and they spit on me and there was piss all over the floor and they left me there all day. What? So in a short frame of time, two different jails, inmates are allowed into her cell to sexually assault her. And then a bunch of inmates form some kind of piss and spit circle around her. Technically could happen. Also could be a pathological liar. Uh, she said she believed that officers felt justified in treating her like this because of the disgust they felt towards her for allowing her daughter to be killed. Uh, she also claimed so many claims that officers, basically all of them, every single officer she ever encountered in this period of time subjected her to starvation and or sexual humiliation. Goldie recalled that in the shower and officer would always watch and leer at her. Uh, and she always made this sound like all of these things always happened. And I despise sexual predators. Truly anyone who's listened to more than three episodes of the show knows that, but I also deeply despise people who claim sexual assaults to never happen because they make it easier for the real rapists out there to get away with the shit that they do. Uh, at breakfast, Goldie claimed she was only ever given one spoonful of eggs and one piece of toast and never get given lunch or dinner. Not ever. You guys, no one has ever been more consistently mistreated than Goldie Hall. Uh, sure. She let her daughter be burned and killed, but doesn't all the mistreatment she's endured outweigh that in the end, isn't she good? Uh, on July 18th, 1978, a judge found probable cause to send Mark Harris, Winston Van Harris and Goldie Hall to trial for second degree battery in Benton County. Uh, Royal Harris had pled guilty earlier that month to second degree battery claim sole responsibility for beating a child. Uh, the judge made his ruling based on an affidavit from the Benton County Sheriff's office, which was based on an interview with June Harris. June said that on April 7th, members of the cult gathered in the trailer owned by Royal. They asked little Stephanie, whether she would choose God or the devil. And then June said that the hall woman, so Goldie said her child's soul was dead and that God was not willing to accept her. If true is Goldie, the worst one of them all was she not only not helping her daughter, but possibly cheering on her daughter's killers, endorsing it. She might've been, uh, June said that Mark Harris got a pot and that Goldie then got the photos of her daughter and she burned the photos. She said, Goldie told her daughter that this was going to happen to her. If she didn't accept God, Stephanie's rag doll was also set on fire. The members told the child to hold her hand over the fire to see how it would feel if she didn't accept God. Winston van then grabbed her hand and held it in the fire. According to June, the next development now in all this, uh, was that it was decided that the 19th West judicial circuit covering Benton County would drop the battery charges. So the 14th judicial circuit could focus on the murder charges. Prosecutor Jerry Patterson wanted to file murder charges against Suzette as well, but was told, you know, immunity deal. So he can't, uh, Suzette released from jail June 1st, 1978 into the custody of her father. Uh, Patterson recalled that he felt bad about having to prosecute Goldie Hall. He told Benjamin Hale, she was so timid, so easily manipulated. Uh, and it just didn't seem fair to me to be prosecuting her, but that's my job. So I did it, but what she, what she's fucking just like innocent uh patterson or or uh or were you manipulated right did goldie uh flirt pretend to be a little wounded dove and just wrap you around her finger and manipulate the fuck out of you he said there was probable cause to charge goldie because she was aware of what was going to happen and she didn't stop it but i'm the prosecutor so my job was to present the evidence the best possible way that i could to show the jury that she was guilty and i did i didn't like it but being a prosecutor it's not what you like and don't like it's what you have to do and you know i would have loved to have just stood up there in front of the jury and pointed suzette freeman behind and behind me and say that's the bitch right there that you should send to prison but i couldn't patterson was able to get some form of revenge end against Suzette Freeman, though. In early 1979, he agreed to come to Louisiana, testify against Suzette in a custody battle with her ex-husband. Patterson was the only witness. He testified about everything that had happened in Arkansas, and Suzette's ex-husband was granted permanent custody. Suzette only allowed one visit per month, and that visit had to be supervised. So that is good. The murder trial began at the Newton County Courthouse, September 12th, 1978. All four defendants maintained their not guilty pleas up to the trial. All three male defendants had conflicts with their attorneys. Happens a lot with cultists. By the time of the trial, Royal and Mark had switched attorneys several times. Winston Vann's attorney ended up being Doug Wilson. This guy's funny. Vann later appealed, alleging inadequate counsel, which was denied. Wilson wanted to present Vann as a brainwashed victim of the cult, but Vann insisted he was a leader. Do not diminish my authority, heathen. During the appeal process, Winston testified that Vann was not cooperative and that he also suspected he was not being truthful. The three men stuck to the same story, that Mark gave the order to kill Stephanie, which Suzette confirmed through her interpretation, and Royal and Winston Vann took her into the woods. Royal pulled the trigger, and Winston Vann helped bury the body. Wilson knew that Vann was going to be convicted of a crime, but he hoped to reduce his culpability by arguing he was an accomplice and did not commit the murder. That strategy fell out the window after Wilson received a ballistics report indicating that Stephanie Hall had been murdered with two weapons. So many motherfuckers lying all the time in this. Wilson sent Winston Vann a letter, after receiving the report. This is so good. He sent this to his own client. He wrote, Dear Vann, As you may know, the ballistics report is in and shows that two guns were used in the murder. Of course, this pretty well turns your story into a fairy tale. Unless Royal comes up with a new version that he was aspiring to be a cowboy and packed a couple of six guns or rifles or whatever for the fun of it. What I'm trying to say, as before, is that the jury will in all likelihood include a few people who were killed in the murder. The jury will in all likelihood include a few people who were killed in the murder. The jury will in all likelihood include a few people who have at least normal intelligence, who will listen to your version and get some good laughs out of it before they send you to the penitentiary for the rest of your natural life. As I have said repeatedly, I'll advocate strongly whatever story you tell me to be true. It doesn't matter that your present version has got more holes in it than a country club golf course. But it does occur to me that one possibility is that you may be doing what you honestly believe God Almighty wants you to do. If that is the case, my advice is to get in touch with the jury and find out what you're and ask him if it is all right if you follow your lawyer's advice. Of course, it is also possible that he wants you to work among the prisoners for the rest of your life, in which case he definitely has you on the right track. I wish I could be more encouraging and less sarcastic, but I really have no reason for either at this point. I'll just say what I've said before. I'll do the very best I can and that, as matters stand, it won't be near enough. Sincerely, Douglas L. Wilson. Well, Douglas L. Wilson, you are a funny lawyer. The jury will in all likelihood include a few people of at least normal intelligence who will listen to your version and get some good laughs out of it. Oh man, that line just soaked, just dripping in sarcasm. I also loved more holes than a country club golf course and the shit about God wanting him to work amongst the prisoners. Oh, chef's kiss. If I ever really need a good defense attorney, I hope I get somebody like Douglas Wilson. Goldie's defense attorneys were Tom Keith and Buford Gardner. Hell yeah, Buford. Not as good as Toot, but not terrible. Keith believed defending Goldie was a moral crusade. Oh my God, because he believed in her innocence. In the early morning hours before the trial started, Royal Mark and Winston Vann were all caught attempting to escape from jail. Another development. Winston Vann managed to get a hacksaw blade, saw through one of the bars on an upper window of the jail. They were caught when the warden on night shift heard something, stepped out, saw Winston Vann's handout. After that, and after meeting with their lawyers, Royal and Mark decided against their attorney's advice to plead no contest, which is a plea. Which a criminal defendant accepts the conviction and punishment for a charge without explicitly admitting guilt. Primary difference between a guilty plea and no contest is that the latter can't be used as an admission of fault in subsequent civil lawsuits. Still, the trial continues. And I guess the start of it was a media circus. Suzette Freeman's lawyer, David Matthews, recalled to Benjamin Hale, the courthouse square was packed. I mean, packed with people. There were folks that had brought the equivalent of what we'd call a food truck now, that were selling concessions on the square. The courthouse itself was packed full, full, full. And when Goldie was let in to start the trial, this murmur went through the crowd. Or this murmur. Goldie's lawyer, Tom Keith, later came to believe that if this had happened after the infamous Jonestown massacre, the jury and press might have been much more sympathetic towards Goldie and better, you know, would better have understood the concept of brainwashing. Or Goldie is terrible. Goldie told Benjamin Hale, everyone has his own idea about this. Goldie is terrible. Goldie is terrible. Goldie is terrible. Goldie is terrible. my case which was sensationalized by the newspapers and tv media they know nothing of the horror nothing i never knew who killed my daughter until the trial was over on court royal and mark's lawyers informed the judge that their clients had chosen to plead no contest against their advice when the judge asked royal if he understood that by pleading no contest he was waiving his right to a jury trial he responded yes sir there is no reason to drag it out i do not wish to smear the church the church that there is no church uh all the members are gone or in jail uh the judge repeatedly asked him if he understood what he was doing royal said he did not believe he would get a fair trial deputy prosecutor gary isbell requested that a record be made of the factual basis of the pleas uh the judge dismissed the public from the court and reconvened in chambers defense attorney tommy martin presented for factual basis of royal's plea that he quote uh did with leaded bullets in the life of miss stephanie hall uh royal recognized that it was an unlawful act and a sinful act uh the jury would upon hearing the evidence inevitably give him a life sentence and that he has no wish to spend the state's time and money or undergo the ordeal of reliving all these moments and has no wish to participate in any way in the slandering and tearing down of his church and his religion mark's lawyer uh richard parker all right fucking finally dick uh had just two factual bases i might have said bases factual bases uh earlier for the change of plea the first was as the recognized prophet of the church of god in christ the holy spirit incorporated uh he did in fact make a prophecy that stephanie hall was to be shot and that in fact is what occurred as a result of this prophecy the second was that mark believed that the jury uh would sentence him to life and that by making a plea and arguments for mitigation he might hope for a lesser sentence mark concurred with all but one statement as attorney made he said quote i would like to give a brief statement about the people in the prophecy to add more emphasis to the fact that it does still exist and the fact that it is here today and also the fact that tribulations will occur very very soon i wish i imagine him saying it in a weird voice too uh when edith received the gift of prophecy she was a methodist minister and also the daughter of a methodist minister and she was baptized when she was three years old and the judge now told mark hot damn boy they done fried your brain into something more approximate and toasted dog shit than anything remotely resembling a human thinking muscle uh no he just thought that no he told mark that he did not want to get into the philosophy of the church at the time mark's attorney once again asked him if he disagreed with anything he said and mark replied i do feel bad for mark because he was raised in this for so long he said what i'm saying is what is written down in the message some months back and what is written down in the record books of life you know what happened here on earth is what we have been telling everyone and also that if we lied in court we would be anathema so that is why we have maintained what we have told also it is a fact that if it was not changed i would have just went ahead and pleaded guilty and gotten it over with i really have no wish to continue this and have not wished in the past to continue this any longer but since this is the lord's will so be it whoo kid was having a hard time getting mama's kool-aid out of his brain i mean i would still agree with him being sentenced to life for what he was complicit in but fucking mama did a number on him uh his attorney then said it was mark's religious belief that the events that occurred were changed by god and in god's eyes they did not happen uh sorry come again mark then said may i state something stephanie was an anathema this church is based on free choice that is why it is such small numbers because in the past we've observed the commandments and we have not diverted from them without express orders from god himself through prophecy and interpretation uh over which suzette is interpreter for the church uh what still confused at that point mark was cut off from speaking any further the judge was like all right okay just don't talk anymore enough and sentences was set for a later date uh court returned to session and it was time for the actual trial to begin only two defendants remained winston van harris and goldie hall during opening statements winston van's attorney doug wilson indicated that yes he was present when the crime was committed but asked for compassion from the jury and remember doug knew he was uh more than present that he probably fired a second gun almost certainly did but as his attorney he can't say that in court he noted that mark harris was the prophet of the sect and that suzette uh had the power of interpretation in his opening statement defense attorney tom keith said there were two victims stephanie and goldie he talked about how goldie was introduced to the church just after divorce during her association with the sect goldie quote was told from time to time she must make her child mind she must make her child love god uh interestingly during the trial at one point it came out that after the group moved to ronald uh goldie was given the opportunity to send stephanie back to louisiana to her dad because uh the group's animosity toward stephanie had you know reached a boiling point but she didn't do that both game and fish commission uh ranger fred bell and deputy ray watkins testified that when goldie was asked about her daughter's whereabouts she said the last time she saw her was at a shopping center in rogers huh uh it's almost like she's telling everybody different things she's just you know telling what you know makes her look the the best in uh you know whatever that moment is uh jury also heard from suzette freeman and june harris uh before recess at that point doug wilson and winston van's biological father uh gobe smith jr spoke to his son for the first time in more than 20 years explained that because of his escape attempt he needed to reconsider his options doug wilson asked winston van to tell him the truth did he kill stephanie should they be considering a guilty plea in his father's presence the murderer formerly known as gobe the third admitted yes it's all true i was very actively involved i went out there with a child with royal he said there was only one gun but he was there and he assisted so still not willing to say the you know explicit unadulterated truth but close to it just couldn't bring himself to say yeah i fucking shot that baby in front of his dad uh wilson decided they needed to make a plea deal for a lesser sentence when court returned to session winston van agreed to plead guilty to murder in exchange for a 50-year sentence offered by the prosecution when wilson informed prosecutor jerry patterson that van had agreed patterson said he wanted to add another 15 years though for illegal possession of a firearm patterson told him take it or leave it according but he knew he was running out of options and facing the maximum penalty if he said no so he pled guilty when the judge sentenced him to 65 years 50 for murder 15 for use of a firearm now uh it was goldie hall on trial uh alone according to author benjamin hale the actual trial records no longer exist so many missing records that never made it to the digital age lost or fucking intentionally destroyed for some reason newton county court clerk seemed confused as to why they weren't why there weren't any records jerry patterson once possessed a copy but after the trial he loaned them to someone who was writing a book about the case but then the book was never published the man died and his kids lost track of the records uh but based on newspaper accounts from reporters covering the trial goldie hall testified that she and stephanie were on a hillside while the others were talking below them huh i thought she had no memories of stephanie after leaving rogers uh arkansas uh she said she could not hear what they were saying she approached and was asked by winston van if stephanie could go with him and royal to look for some water stephanie then came to her holding winston van's hand and happily said i'm going with mr van oh yeah sure she did she's gonna joyfully run off with the guy who burnt the shed out of her hand a few days earlier that makes sense uh goldie testified that after royal and winston van left the campsite with her daughter she heard what she thought were uh five gunshots she asked who's that freeman what the noise was what's going on out there i saw my daughter walk in that area and then i heard a bunch of gunshots what do you think might have happened and suzette said she couldn't say royal and winston van returned to the campsite without stephanie and goldie started to cry she's uh at first they weren't going to tell her that she was going to tell her what happened but then van told her that stephanie was not going to make it to the wilderness and they had to get rid of her goldie testified i don't know who did it at this point later she said mark harris told her they had to burn the child's clothes in the campfire uh suzette testified earlier trial that stephanie was killed by cult members for bringing bad luck to the group mark harris told the group that the day she was killed uh god told him that he was the cause or that she was the cause of their troubles much the testimony focused on conflicting versions of what transpired uh transpired on that day goldie testified that she was the cause of she obeyed the prophecies given by mark and suzette without question she said suzette and mark told me i was going to suffer the sting of death if i did not obey the father i really thought they were getting that stuff from the father just following orders can't risk the sting of death uh sting of death uh she recalled incidents where stephanie was whipped and burned at the direction of mark and suzette uh goldie admitted that she whipped stephanie once uh with a switch uh beat her once with a paddle because quote they told me i had to they said i had to keep satan out of her right uh no choice uh she said that on the night stephanie's hand was burned suzette put her daughter in a chair in the middle of the room asked her repeatedly if she loved god stephanie replied yes mama this kid's fucking three not mentally capable of understanding religious dogma psychobabble uh the question went on for four uh for five or six hours to this poor toddler fuck this whole crew right when i read shit like this i wish they could have all been locked inside a burning building uh later in the night at the uh direction of royal goldie ripped up a picture of stephanie and her daughter in a chair in the middle of the room asked her repeatedly if she loved god stephanie and burned it along with one of her dresses and a rag doll winston van then held stephanie's hand over the fire quote so she could see how it feels to burn goldie testified i jerked her hand away and i asked him to stop but they said she's got to learn what it feels like suzette picked up stephanie and bodily put her in the pot but i took her away from there huh so so you did help goldie kind of oh you never disobeyed your leader you always every time did what they said but then also stood up to the fucking uh leader of the group risking the sting of his life and death this one time to keep her from going in the pot uh-huh goldie also testified suzette gave royal the order that stephanie was anathema uh after that she said she was kept locked in a room at the rogers apartment goldie visited her daughter every morning and evening uh why was she locked in the room who knows uh earlier suzette testified that goldie was present when mark said he received a message from god indicating stephanie was responsible for problems with the truck quote he said she had to be done away with she had to be killed one question further suzette testified to the best of my knowledge goldie heard it i don't remember any reaction yeah that feels right uh before the child was taken away the men approached goldie told her she had to tell them to do it so she could share in the responsibility and according to suzette quote i asked her if she was sure and she nodded her head yeah that feels right and suzette she didn't have uh uh you know a lot of motivation uh to lie about this right now because she has immunity uh suzette said that goldie herself brought the child from the camper handed her to winston van who took her away telling her they were going to pick berries uh and that goldie did not protest a few minutes later they heard shots suzette said i didn't look i didn't listen uh it wasn't a shot it was a bunch of shots it was terrible uh i heard uh all right yeah i was screaming when the men returned she said they kept saying over and over that god had fulfilled his promise she died instantly just as he said she would she didn't suffer goldie just sat there crying stephanie was killed before sunset because quote mark prophesied god told him that if stephanie had lived till the end of the day satan worshipped her and she would die she didn't suffer goldie just sat there crying stephanie was could have come and burned us all and you know what he does have a point there i mean satan worshippers they are fucking always just constantly constantly just burning everybody you gotta you gotta always have your eyes peeled for those fucking devil worshippers wait a minute wait a minute how many how many times have i shared stories of people getting burned alive by devil worshippers all right i wait zero i think it's zero a lot of stories of heathens getting burned by you know you know fanatical christian zealots uh but not one i don't think about devil worshippers burning the faithful that's that's strange goldie hall denied knowing of such discussions or participating in participating in her daughter's murder uh on september 14th 1978 she was convicted of second degree murder fuck yeah she was benjamin hale spoke to the jury for a woman catherine nance who was 89 years old when he interviewed her uh she said about serving on that jury it was a long long jury lots of evidence and the horrible pictures and everything all but one person on that jury knew that she was guilty but we had one girl on that jury who was in doubt that that lady was guilty why i don't know but anyway we ended up we came out of the jury room two times with a hung jury and the judge would send us back in there so we'd go back and go over our notes and everything and then i would ask finally the last time he sent us in there i said you convinced us the rest of us that she is not guilty well she started crying and we finally got a jury good on her and the rest of that jury tough lady i like it they finally got that fucking weak one to shut the fuck up stop being stupid stop feeling sorry for goldie's lying ass and do what's right uh the judge also sentenced royal and mark who had turned 18 while in jail to life in prison without the possibility of parole uh mark said that quote he lived in mortal fear of giving a false prophecy to this day i don't know i have ever given a false message okay royal told the judge uh he felt because of his state of mind at the time the child was killed should have been manslaughter not first degree murder you know because he was just his mercy killing however he realized that under no circumstances uh could the murder be justified actually he said could it uh he said that at the time he was acting for the protection of the overall group having a small child with us was liability right fucking live i'm trying to help let's try to do my best for apocalypse stuff oh boy you know that at this point these guys were hoping they were fiending for nuclear armageddon just imminently occurring because if not they did it all for nothing uh in missouri suzette's husband larry freeman uh and cult member johnny stablier were also facing justice for kidnapping laura london larry's young sons from his ex-wife but they both received leniency from the court probably because johnny was considered an accessory and larry a veteran appeared to have uh the motive of saving his kids from nuclear war fuck these fucking idiots kidnapping charges were dropped for both men in exchange for pleading guilty to enticement and they were only given probation so that's insane ultimately goldie hall would be sentenced to five years that's pretty gross i mean i get that the murder of her daughter wasn't directly her call she did not pull the trigger but she did hand her daughter off to the people who pulled the trigger uh goldie hall released from prison in april of 1980 after serving only two years probably a super hard year two years though i would bet i would bet her life that every day a thousand male prisoners were shipped in to form a circle and piss and spit on her uh her defense attorney tom keith drove her home to louisiana and they stayed in touch for years afterward goldie remarried had another daughter whom she raised on her family's farm she also allegedly worked as a court reporter for many years and she and her husband supposedly he still live in louisiana but who knows uh how honest uh you know she was with benjamin hale about all this february of 1983 56 year old royal baby killer harris who was suffering from prostate cancer was transferred from the cummins unit prison in pine bluff arkansas yes it is named after me okay uh to the diagnostic unit hospital in pine bluff he remained there his cancer uh in and out of remission until he died in 1998 at the age of 70 in 1987 winston other baby killer van uh the baby killer formerly known as the artist triple gobe successfully appealed got an extra 15 years taken off a sentence 1993 he was released on parole to age of 46 discharged from the system in 2003 according to hale uh he changed his name uh to daniel gobe daniel gobe smith he's had fucking three names uh three first names he'd been gobe he's been winston now he's daniel and he moved to uh alpha freight oh my god he moved to alpharetta georgia uh where he died of cancer and septic shock in 2022 at the age of 75 according to his obituary he worked quote in a wide range of areas in the civilian business sector read he took odd jobs occasionally when not living off of unemployment uh and had a strong christian faith he was married to his wife robin lynch holt for 35 years robin developed dementia during the final years of their marriage and daniel was her caretaker until she died november 8th 2020 he was never the same after his wife's death said in the obituary like you know probably wasn't the same as you know as he used to be when he was a good guy uh after he helped uh shoot a three-year-old to death you know one who's handy burned uh suzette freeman returned to her home uh hometown in gross tet louisiana with larry freeman who was still serving five years of probation they later moved to baton rouge owned and operated a temp agency for over three decades that sucks uh larry died in 2013 suzette died in 2019 at the age of 72 i don't like how long a lot of these people lived according to her obituary suzette had a strong christian faith and a positive outlook always quick with a bright smile and a word of encouragement to everyone she encountered throughout her life she shared god's blessings and love in her service to others both in her business and in the community teaching sunday school and volunteer oh boy volunteering to help those in need she was the happiest in her beautiful flower garden with her beloved dogs she was beautiful inside and out and will be greatly missed well that was a bunch of bullshit fuck that evil bitch uh wonder why her obituary didn't mention her saying god told her to have a toddler killed to interpret you know that fucking god's message from god to be part of that uh uh prophesy prophecy was that was that one of god's blessings fuck all these people and they're performative fucking christianity bullshit putting a cross around your neck you know fucking head into a meeting once a week doesn't mean you're still not a piece of trash in 2017 and i know there's good christians out there just to say that again but fuck not these ones not these ones in 2017 arkansas passed a statute eliminating life without parole for juvenile offenders juveniles convicted of capital murder now eligible for parole after 30 years uh mark harris 17 at the time of the crime appealed under the new statute in 2017 and he was convicted of capital murder now eligible for parole after 30 years in 2018 uh after 40 years in prison he was released on supervision july 23rd 2018 at the age of 57 or 58 arkansas department of corrections not authorized to give benjamin hale any info other than that mark had left the state however in the white pages hale tracked down a mark harris in a alpharetta georgia uh who was the correct age who had no public records before 2018 he found his address email and phone number he called and emailed mark uh asking for an interview a few days later received a response mark read the article hale had written for harpers about haley's disappearance which included what he knew about the murder of stephanie hall and mark was angry and wrote he did not want to participate in a project that would demonize him he wrote quote i have no interest in resuming ptsd related nightmares or resuming thoughts of suicide wishing i had the courage to do uh that to put an end to experiencing more hatred from people i don't know and don't know me who will only ever view me as a heinous murderer hale responded that he did not want to participate in a project that would demonize him he wrote quote i have no interest demonize him or portray him as the villain he wanted the truth mark replied he'd think about it he considered the proposal and eventually he agreed and this uh info is worth sharing in the summer of 2023 hale had several phone calls with mark in early 2024 he had a few days free drove from new york to alfalfa oh my god alpharetta i just want to call it alifreda for some reason that's not even how it's spelled at all uh to meet mark and his wife barbara in prison after the meeting they continued emailing and texting one another although mark was the one who set the call into motion he told hale that he did not have a clear memory of what happened because he was very sick at the time with a high fever couldn't keep anything down and i know that feels incredibly convenient but when the benton county police showed up at the trailer to get june harris's son mark was in bed vomiting and fading in and out of consciousness uh he was sick for the next two days very sick uh he remembered suzette saying it was time to go to the wilderness while other witnesses said that the u-haul getting stuck in the mud was the impetus for stephanie being murdered mark did not remember that he told benjamin hale well i told you i've been thrown up all day and was terribly ill at about three in the morning i woke up groggily got this message about burying the child and stuff like that i just said what i heard suzette confirmed it that morning so who knows he said that when he got this message he was in the camper trailer with suzette his dad and his brother suzette confirmed the prophecy with her gift of interpretation later that morning they needed to go find out if the prophecy was certain mark heard the same message and suzette confirmed it when he asked it uh when asked to describe how suzette confirmed the prophecy mark said she would open herself to speaking in tongues and then have these ideas about what it meant supposedly guided mark did say that his dad spoke to goldie in front of the group and said this is your child we don't care what god may have said if you decide it's up to you about what to do we know there's nuclear war and all but this is your responsibility it's your child and if you decide you're not going to do this then we will respect your choice and no one's going to upset be upset with you or nothing according to mark quote goldie chose to have the child and not the child of god and that's what suzette confirmed he said that when he got the child killed i mean it's you know he said she said but uh why would mark be lying about this now he'd already served you know nearly half a century behind bars uh he didn't need to say this again could be lying but it's like everybody else's word versus goldie's uh when clarifying with mark hale asked if royal told goldie that if she decided not to have stephanie killed they would have to leave uh royal apparently did not say this goldie was told there would be no penalties and she would not be exiled from the church even that's fascinating if true according to mark daniel van and uh or daniel van winston fucking gobe man of many names and uh royal took the kid into the woods uh near wherever the place place was uh i didn't go back to the area i didn't have anything to do with it after they did that he heard four gunshots excuse me when they returned van was shaken up royal seemed to be in shock as well oof uh hale wrote about the differences between goldie statement and mark said uh after talking with him he said i don't know what to do with him i don't know what to do with him i don't know what to do with him i don't know what to do with him i don't know what to do with him i don't mark i just could not call up goldie again like a responsible little journalist cross-checking his sources and say well mark says you did in fact directly co-sign on the decision to have your daughter murdered any comment before we go to press especially if it turns out that mark's version is true because even if it is she still deserves forgiveness i prefer to let both versions stand in opposition on the page without trying to reconcile them there are some things you will never know and i'm okay with that uh in the book hale notes that suzette freeman's witness statement and all the court transcripts that were written by the court transcripts were written by the court not archived with the arkansas supreme court during winston vann's appeals were missing uh the only documents archived and again i should point out that hale does not refer to her as goldie uh in the book refers to it by a fake name if you ever read it uh yeah i can and now it's not my notes anymore so i can't remember what it is but yeah he he does you know again you try to protect her identity but but apparently no one else's in the book hale notes that suzette freeman's witness statement and all the court transcripts that were not archived with the arkansas supreme court during winston vann's appeals were missing the only documents archived the newton county courthouse were one-page official briefs noting the different proceedings took place uh mark already knew that because of a friend mark believes somebody the courthouse destroyed the records intentionally to protect themselves from lawsuits interesting hale asked mark why he chose to plead no contest rather than guilty and he said because if you plead guilty in our minds me and my dad you're saying that there's no way god could have said anything right so pleading no contest is the only way to avoid that look we were crazy and stupid but we were sincere and we were sincere and we were sincere and we were sincere in our motivations to protect the cult mark recalled that he was transferred to a different unit than his father quote which is very fortunate that i was away from him and allowed me to recover from all that shit not to try and recover mark said he thought about suicide a lot during his first three years in prison but eventually developed a new clarity and independence after winston vann got out of prison he didn't hear from his brother for many years he believes his uh brother wanted to forget about him mark was granted leave when his dad died 20 years into his sentence he spoke briefly about his dad's tragic life in 2006 28 years 28 years into his sentence 45 year old mark got married while in prison he'd been in a minimum security prison for six years at that point where inmates had access to pay phones uh he was able to access a dating chat line based in little rock which is how he and his wife met he was married by a prison chaplain but within a month of the marriage mark's wife moved in with the guy she'd previously dated her phone calls letters and visits dropped off mark later found out she was claiming him as dependent on her taxes after the irs told her she couldn't do that anymore she divorced him i mean i'm not surprised meeting somebody from prison on a dating chat line the odds can't be good for that leading to a long-term lasting stable marriage can they uh during his time in prison mark said he worked different jobs uh spent 12 years in mental health services working his way up from a clerk learned to read the uh minnesota multi-phasic personality inventory and administer and score inmate tests also underwent a lot of therapy and studied a lot of psychology he has no formal record of how many credit hours he may have earned because inmates serving life Sentences were not allowed to actually earn the credits at that point. Mark said he spent a lot of time reading. And that because of all that, he became an atheist. He said, I can't say that suddenly I woke up one morning and had this attitude. It's a long process of development, of study, of reading hundreds of books from different sources. There were so many questions I faced during those 40 years. The conclusions I came to were not very supportive of my connection with faith. Mark recalled how his brother took him in when he was paroled. He watched as Winston Vans, who changed his name again to Daniel, how his wife Robin had to go to a facility because of her dementia. Daniel was not able to visit her in her final months because of the pandemic. Soon after his wife died, Daniel was diagnosed with stage four lung cancer. Mark spent approximately the next year taking care of him until he went into hospice. Mark was bitter that Daniel had abandoned him for years and didn't give him much help when he got out. He said Daniel was an alcoholic and drank at night. He was also still extremely religious and believed in preparing for doomsday to the bitter end. Live by the bullshit, die by the bullshit. Mark met his second wife, Barbara, a Canadian. She had three children and was married three times. Barbara's first husband was abusive. Her second husband died of an epileptic seizure. Third husband was younger than her and she hoped the marriage would last for many years, but he was diagnosed with ALS. She cared for him until he died. Oh, my God. And then she met Mark soon after that. Through their video chats, Mark helped her through the grieving process. He was taking care of his brother at this time also. As soon as the border opened, Barbara drove from British Columbia to Georgia and married. Mark, Barbara told author Hale, he is the kindest, sweetest person I've ever met. The most giving, the most thoughtful. That's why I fell for him. At the time of the interview, Mark was working in a candy factory and doing DoorDash on the side. He said, I carry boxes. I package stuff into boxes. I made Mensa when I was in prison. I've got one month short of a degree in social work and I work in a factory doing manual labor. I'm married and living about as happy as life as I possibly can, although it is much later than I had hoped. And my entire youthful life was spent in prison. So my desire. For a doctorate or maybe a master's in social work are pretty much out of the window because I can't afford to go to school. I'm just trying to survive. What an intensely unique life he has had. He's now either 65 or 66. I mean, what he did was fucking so disgusting. I do have more sympathy for him than the rest, though, because he was raised by such a fucking lunatic. Told he was a prophet for so many years. And what happened out there, you know, he was 17 years old. I still don't feel sorry. I'm sorry for him going to prison because of that little girl dying like she did. But some sympathy now. Now we're back in the back up to August 2001 when Goldie Hall's former defense attorney, Tom Keith, now a judge, met with Joyce Hale and her daughter, Kelly. Back to the first story. This sucked back to the other little girl, Haley Zega, who was taken out to those same woods. The one who thankfully lived, the one whose claims of an imaginary friend helping her survive directly led to the investigation that brought the story you just heard back to the present. Attorney. Tom. Keith asked Goldie if she minded him sharing her email with Joyce Hale, Haley's grandma. He told her she could trust Joyce. It would be three years before Goldie gave her email to Tom. There were long periods, obviously, with a in-between correspondences with these two. Goldie and Joyce then built some sort of a long distance relationship through discussing Haley's disappearance and Stephanie's murder. They analyzed a few, quote, astounding coincidences. First, both incidents happened in late April and within two miles of one another. And we don't have to trust Goldie's sketchy word on that. That is documented. Haley's imaginary friend, Alicia, had dark pigtails, a hairstyle Stephanie wore often. I mean, a lot of girls do, but still worth sharing. Alicia was four years old. Stephanie, three and a half when she died. Haley also said that Alicia carried a flashlight with her at the end. Goldie wrote that once Suzette took away Stephanie's cloth Raggedy Ann doll because it was an idol, right? Idolatry. Uh-huh. And all she could replace it with was a flashlight, which Stephanie then slept with every night. And that's a weird coincidence. Goldie told Joyce Suzette would just turn the lights off and I had to give Stephanie a flashlight so she wouldn't be so scared. Goldie did come to believe Alicia, Haley's imaginary friend, was Stephanie's spirit guiding her when she was lost in the forest. Joyce seemed to believe it, too. Now, Benjamin Hale, the author, does not believe that and neither does Haley. Haley told Hale, there are things that I will never know and that's OK. Oh, I feel the same way, Haley. For many years, Haley did not know much about the 1978 case. She was aware that Joyce had looked into it, but she didn't ask questions. Benjamin Hale was the one to tell her details. Haley had been hesitant to ask, had a respect for everyone involved. Haley told Hale, A lot of people have used my story to say this is proof of angels. This is proof of this or that or whatever fits their belief system. I'm not going to say don't do that. Where I draw the line is when people try to say definitively, this is what it is. You should believe this. The truth of the matter is nobody was out there. It was just me. I'm not saying it wasn't. Some metaphysical whatever, but I'm the one who experienced it. I don't need anybody to tell me like it was an angel. It was an alien. It was a ghost. I've had all these people on the Internet co-op my story and essentially tell whatever story they want to tell and then attach my name to it, which really pisses me off. I can't fucking stand that shit because it causes people to come to me and be like, you told it wrong. Although he doesn't believe that it was Stephanie Spirit that guided Haley in the woods, Benjamin Hale did note one more coincidence quote that gives me the will. Goldie once wrote to Joyce, Stephanie's middle name is Alana. Sometimes she would say her name is Alice. I would tell her, no, it's Alana. She would laugh. I would think how funny she even came up with that name as it was a little different than her own. Hale writes, imagine a toddler with a southern accent saying the words all I see, giving the slight word a slight extra half syllable. A diphthong is called linguistics. Stretched out phonetically, a la Sia, Alicia. I mean, I know everybody is working hard to connect dots here, but that is fucking weird, right? Combined with everything else. Let's head out of the timeline. Good job, soldier. You've made it back. Barely. What a crazy pair of stories, right? Now, do I think little Stephanie? He's ghost helped Haley make it down to the river. I mean, you know, Haley herself said, I don't want to put the word ghost on it. And like she also said, you know, I wasn't fucking there and I can't prove ghosts are real. But if you've ever listened to me over unscared to death on that podcast, you know that there are a lot of stories out there that point to not everything in this world being, you know, currently fully understood. And if any one of those stories is paranormally true, then perhaps our, you know, spirits do outlast our bodies or something similar is going on. I am like Haley with my spirit. I am like Haley with my spiritual beliefs. There are things that I will never know. And that's OK. And I love that quote of hers where I draw the line is when people try to say definitively, this is what it is. So I'm not going to try and convince anybody of anything and just be one of the people that fucking annoy the shit out of me. Is there some mystical connection between Stephanie Hall's murder and Haley Zega's disappearance? Nobody knows. Nobody will ever know. Maybe, maybe not. There is a connection, though. I mean, I think there might be some kind of mystical connection. But that's just. That's me. But there definitely is a connection, like a for sure connection. Had Haley Zega not disappeared where she did, you know, had she not claimed an imaginary friend had led her to safety, then I would never have told Stephanie's story because it would have already been long forgotten. It would have stayed forgotten to history by the time I started sharing stories. And just that alone take away everything else. I think in and of itself is pretty damn cool. Rest in peace, Stephanie Hall. Your life was short. Brutal, full of madness, perpetuated upon you by cruel and weak people, arrogant and delusional enough to claim they did definitively know God's will. If you're still out there somewhere, I hope you found so much more peace than you ever got to experience under Goldie's, frankly, shameful watch. You deserve better. Time for the takeaways. Time shock. Top five takeaways. Number one on. April 29th, 2001. Six-year-old Haley Zega was lost while hiking in the Buffalo National River wilderness with her grandparents. For the next three days, hundreds of people frantically searched for her. Two so-called mountain men who spent their whole lives exploring the wilderness went outside the designated search zone, found her by the riverbank, dehydrated by otherwise, but otherwise unharmed and hail those fucking mountain men. Maybe my favorite characters in the story. Number two. A few days after she was recovered, Haley told her parents about her imaginary friend, Alicia. Haley explained that Alicia, who appeared to her as a four-year-old girl, had guided her down to the river and kept her company throughout her ordeal. Haley has always called Alicia her imaginary friend. She can't fully explain exactly what happened. She's also okay with the fact that some things will always be a mystery. Number three. Seeking answers to understand Haley's imaginary friend and how she managed to safely navigate the mountainous terrain, Haley's grandmother, Joyce, was told by a friend of a friend about the murder of Stephanie Alana Hall, which occurred in the same woods, just a few miles away. Haley was found. Number four. Stephanie Hall was murdered by members of a group called the Church of God in Christ through the Holy Spirit Incorporated, a very small, very weird cult that followed a 17-year-old prophet and his interpreter, Suzette Freeman, at the end, at the time of the cult's downfall. The cult originated based on the apocalyptic doomsday bullshit of a woman named Edith Harris. The cult recruited Stephanie's mother, Goldie Hall, and it ended with the tragic murder of her daughter. Number five. info the disappearance of Morgan Nick. Towards the beginning of of the timeline we briefly mentioned the disappearance of morgan nick her mother colleen spoke to kelly zega while kelly's daughter hayley was still missing uh to this day morgan's disappearance remains unsolved she's never been found but we have a good idea of what happened in all likelihood on june 9th 1995 uh six-year-old morgan nick and her mother colleen traveled from their home in ozark to a little league game in the town of alma arkansas uh they've been invited out by close friends at approximately 10 30 p.m morgan and her friends asked their parents if they could leave the stands to go catch some fireflies colleen was initially reluctant but their parents convinced her to let morgan go uh morgan was last seen at 10 45 p.m by her friends she was standing alone near her mom's car emptying a sand out of her shoes her friends were a few dozen feet away emptying their own shoes man she almost made it back her little friends and saw a quote creepy man talking to morgan while she was putting her shoes back on morgan's friends then returned without her taking off like little kids do they told colleen she was at her car but when colleen then checked morgan was already nowhere to be found authorities believe morgan was abducted by a creepy man driving a red truck with a white camper in january of 2002 police conducted a dig on private property in boonville arkansas after they received a tip that morgan might be buried there but they found nothing other tips led to other digs but no body in 2019 investigators revisited the case file focused on a man who was caught attempting to abduct another girl at a sonic drive-in less than 10 miles from that uh game that uh the car was parked in the that they were at in a town called van buren just a couple months after morgan disappeared the truck in that case matched the description of the one scene at the ballpark the truck was traced to its owner fbi used vacuum technology to recover a single blonde hair in november of 2021 authorities named billy jack links as a person of interest in morgan's disappearance links had died back in 2000 at the age of 75 while incarcerated for sexual indecency this guy was a fucking creep for sure 1993 he had pled no contest to charge of child sexual abuse and crawford county uh which is where van buren and alma are located three years later he was found guilty the child told police he had tried to lure her into his red truck august 29th 1995 an 11 year old girl told police she was talking with her brothers near the sonic and van buren when a man pulled up uh to them in a red truck offered her money made sexual comments offered to pay her to get in the truck and go with him to his house she ran away and the police were notified a witness reported an arkansas license plate that was traced to links he was arrested the next day uh the hair in links truck tested with new technology or was tested in 2024 with new tech examiners determined that the blonde hair found in the truck had a first degree relationship to colleen nick however could not be definitively identified as her missing daughter morgan's hair in addition to the hair blood was found on part of the seat of the truck and a fiber was found in the mat under the seats and in metal pieces of the truck which did match morgan's girl scout shirt so fibers found there damn october 1st 2024 the alma police announced that a lab report strongly indicated morgan had been in the truck once belonging to links so it sounds like unfortunately again that we have a good idea regarding what happened to her uh colleen nick has become an advocate for missing persons in the u.s and established the morgan nick foundation to support the families of missing children because of the morgan nick foundation photos of missing children are posted in federal facilities and there are stricter sentencing laws for sex offenders still not strict enough but better man good on her for doing this colleen finds closure and knowing who abducted her daughter but still wants to bring morgan home to the police chief jeff pointer said i know that as long as i have anything to do with it that we won't stop working on it until morgan is brought home colleen said about links he'll never have to stand to face justice here on earth for what he did to morgan he took her life but he didn't take her voice he didn't take her light that still shines through this foundation and that is a beautiful that's a strong mom if you have information about the disappearance of morgan nick you can call the national center for missing and exploited children at 1-800-843-5677 the buffalo river cult murder prophecy and a ghost girl has been sucked this was a very tricky episode to name uh and not have the name be like a full paragraph uh thank you to the bad magic productions team for helping making time suck thanks to queen of bad magic lindsey cummins thanks to logan keith helping to publish this episode designing merch for the store at bad magic productions.com uh thanks to thanks to everybody who buys merch uh still i got a bunch of t-shirts out there and stuff it's awesome uh thank you to olivia lee finding the story uh doing some great initial research thanks to benjamin hale for writing cave mountain a disappearance and a reckoning in the ozarks i know we disagreed on goldie but uh amazing amazing information in that book also thanks to the all-seeing eyes moderating the cult of the curious private facebook page the mod squad making sure discord keeps running smooth and everybody over on the time suck and bad magic subreddits and now time for time sucker updates get your time sucker updates the first two big old girthy informative messages i'll be sharing today from those sent into bojangles at time suck podcast.com uh comes from uh meat sack merchant of death christopher tasper uh who wrote in with the subject line of you're dead wrong he wrote the following mostly to crush my funeral dreams dear suck master flex i apologize for nothing that's such a fun way to start email i apologize for nothing uh long time time sucker first time corrector i'm a licensed funeral director in new york state and more importantly for establishing my credentials i was the lightly intoxicated gentleman screaming about monument restrictions at your helium show in buffalo a few years back i do remember that because it was uh it was an odd thing to get worked up about if you don't remember me that makes sense uh i love the carl tanzer suck but as a death professional in the cult of the curious i'm legally and morbidly obligated to clear a few things up uh first the bad news about your funeral dream in most states final disposition cannot happen in open air that means no danapult no viking funeral i'm sorry i i know uh and before you ask i couldn't pin down whether that's states or federal law but bodies must be laid down for public viewing so the exoskeleton idea isn't looking promising either god damn it uh when you briefly explain what happens when someone dies in the u.s i thought you uh missed some of the nuance death generally falls into two categories attended and unattended an attended death happens when medical staff or people who are in the hospital are present hospital nursing home or sometimes at home with continuous care an unattended death occurs without medical personnel present and requires some with legal authority to determine that the death wasn't caused by anything unnatural ranging from self-administered drugs to murder administered bullets murderer administered bullets the exact process varies wildly by state and county rural areas often rely on corners larger metro areas typically have dedicated medical examiners their job is to determine whether further investigation is needed before a funeral home can take custody one thing worth mentioning is that corners and medical examiners have enormous discretion some refer almost every case for investigation out of caution inexperience local policy or simply to give families additional time to decide on funeral arrangements the two major exceptions to all of this are hospice cases and deaths involving a lingering injury for anyone listening here is the practical version dead body not at a medical facility call 9-1-1 on hospice call hospice not 9-1-1 inside a hospital or care facility notify staff congratulations you are now more prepared than 90 of america now on to where you are dead wrong factually you said mummification was the first form of embalming and began in egypt two problems first mummification is not embalming mummification is primarily about preservation for religious purposes embalming is primarily about restoration and presentation using preservation as a tool to get there similar methods different goals second the chinchorro people of what is now northern chile and southern peru were preserving their dead thousands were preserving their dead thousands of years before the egyptians egypt may have perfected the brand but they were not the first to the corpse preservation game a bonus piece of history you'll enjoy arsenic was largely phased out of embalming because it made further murder investigations nearly impossible you can't reliably test for arsenic poisoning when the embalmer has already pumped the deceased full of arsenic civil war embalmers were required to swear they used only arsenic in the process of embalming the dead thousands of years before the egyptians only formaldehyde-based chemicals rather than arsenic they all agreed yet civil war battlefield soil today contains far more arsenic than should naturally be there almost like an entire industry lied to the government shocking finally described embalming as distasteful and essentially mutilation legally speaking that's not entirely wrong and that's fine you don't deserve preservation you country bumpkin piece of shit i wouldn't embalm your sorry carcass with mud jk mostly but here's where i think you may have wandered into judgment instead of preference and embalming viewing or funerals aren't for you that's completely reasonable uh oh sorry if embalming viewing or funerals aren't for you that's uh completely reasonable we build our morning rituals from what we grow up around if you've never attended an open casket visitation it probably won't hold the same meaning for you as it does for someone who has people often agonize over where they're over whether they'll regret seeing someone or regret not seeing them in my experience those regrets are surprisingly rare my somewhat science-backed professional opinion is that the correct way to care for your debt is whatever you believe is right and can afford nobody should feel guilty about their death care customs well carl tanzer earl nelson ed kemper jeffrey dahmer ted bundy probably should but generally speaking nobody else most people benefit from some form of ritual whether that's a traditional burial or a cremation service or simply raising a glass at their favorite bar having a next step keeps people moving forward and brings people together which is one of the strongest protections against complicated grief death feels strangely abnormal in modern america but it's not the only thing that's wrong with death care which is absurd because it's the single most normal thing that will ever happen to any of us having something that feels normal helps people build their new normal. I also think you unintentionally added a bit of judgment towards viewings and restoration work. Humans have been caring for and arranging their dead long before recorded history. Even Neanderthals appeared to have treated their dead with intention and ritual. Throughout history, we've repeatedly seen efforts to present the dead in a way that reflected who they were in life. And I promise you, modern embalming is nowhere near good enough to make someone stay in good condition for months. People who struggle with an acceptance can fixate on anything, a body, a photograph, a voicemail, a favorite jacket. The object isn't the issue. You also mentioned giving someone a suntan. While mistakes certainly happen, the goal of restoration is never to change someone. The goal is to return them as closely as possible to how they actually looked. Side note, I am more than certain Carl Tanzler must have reeked. If I spend more than a few minutes around a body in advanced decomposition, even with proper protective equipment, which I doubt Carl had, the smell follows me until I've showered multiple times. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to get rid of it. I'm not sure if I'm going to get rid of it. I've showered multiple times and washed my clothes multiple times. Unless you have smelled advanced decomposition, I cannot fully describe how overpowering it is. Related to that, you separated disposition into burial and cremation, which is correct, but you also implied that choosing cremation means you may not be able to have a viewing. That's one of the most common misconceptions in a funeral service. Choosing cremation does not prevent a family from seeing their loved one or holding visitation beforehand. In fact, funeral homes generally cannot prohibit a private identification or viewing simply because cremation was selected. Restrictions can exist in unusual circumstances, but cremation often allows families to have nearly every element of a traditional funeral at a lower overall cost. Thanks for the suck. Thanks for the years. Thanks for making death slightly less terrifying every Monday. P.S. Feel free to ignore this entire section on building a company that turns photographs of loved ones into custom 3D sculpted memorial urns. The goal is simple. Make personalized memorials affordable instead of luxury products. Right now, customers can submit photos and ideas. I create a digital model, and after approval, I manufacture the piece. I'm currently building software that will eventually let families design much of it themselves. I've been about a week away from finishing that software for roughly three months now, so we'll see how that goes. The site is TASBAR.com. It should be live momentarily, and if you decide it's worth a shout out, it would mean the world to me. If not, I'll still be preaching the suck. Sixty percent, I wouldn't change a thing. Christopher TASBAR, licensed funeral director in New York State, uh, uh, New York, New York's state of, state of New York, screamer of monument restrictions, Buffalo Helium. Uh, wow, Chris. Holy shit. Uh, thank you for the corrections, which I verified are correct, and the death lesson. I love the expertise, truly. And the 3D portrait, portrait reliefs at TASBAR.com are very, very cool. Uh, hail to you. Uh, thanks for taking all the time to write all that, for sharing all that knowledge. Uh, yeah, that was incredible. And then next up, uh, and also finally, uh, broadsword-wielding sack Calder, uh, wrote in with a subject line of, Dear Dan and Bad Magic Crew, my name is Calder, Calder. Uh, I love, I love you wrote, it's phonetic, good luck. It could be Calder or Calder. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say Calder. Uh, I'm a longtime listener to the show and fan of your comedy since I saw your Comedy Central Presents when I was in high school. I wanted to write in about the trans sport debate because it is something I actually have a lot of experience, uh, with and wanted to provide a bit more information and perspective on the topic. My wife is trans. You would never know looking at her. In fact, she has surprised several of our friends when coming out to them. She's also an athlete. Both of us compete in a form of competitive sword fighting called HEMA, Historical European Martial Arts. Uh, the sport is a unique example because of its gender inclusion. It has an open category that anyone can join as well as a woman's plus or underrepresented gender's category, uh, categories. I love a large number of participants in these underrepresented categories often fight in the open as well. This is a sport of physical fitness and athleticism, but also requires a large amount of trained skill. Mostly this is divided by the type of sword being used in the sport. It's a sport that is used in the sport of physical fitness and athleticism, and sometimes by the ranked skill level as well. My wife was very sporty growing up and even worked a very physical job through high school and on, uh, her physicality changed significantly when she transitioned. She lost most of her muscle mass and her physical stature, uh, structure, excuse me, changed her muscle and fat distribution change in her body mass, excuse me, and her body loses muscle mass, uh, way faster now, not to mention all the hormonal changes in the way she presented herself. She chose to exclude herself from athletic activities for a long time due to how people might view her. She also had a massive fear over changing rooms, bathrooms, and other communal spaces required for sporting ventures. Uh, there are other trans people who experienced very similar things, but I'm not here to talk about them. When she started HEMA, it was like a whole new body. Fencing is not entirely about strength, but it does play a part. Structure can beat strength, but structure takes skill. At first she was afraid of fencing other women, but soon found herself getting beat by women who were well-versed in the sport. She was inspired by multiple other women who were kicking ass in the open category, but she was also inspired by categories as well as the URG categories. And she decided to pursue a more competitive path in the sport. Everything she has accomplished now has everything to do with her skill and athleticism that she has built upon a whole new foundation over years of training. There are plenty of women and people of other genders that consistently either make her work for every point or in her words, kick her ass. Even though she is very strong and well-conditioned, it does not compare to her younger pre-transition, uh, transition self. She is now an instructor at our club and teaches the importance of good structure, how to beat those who seek to win with only strength or power. As far as other sports, I'm no expert. I don't believe every sport should just allow anyone to compete, but there should be more inclusive spaces for everyone. There are approximately 0.01% of all athletes in the U S that are trans, but they should be allowed to have fun and train with the rest of us. Maybe a case-by-case basis, more intramural sports, or just more categories that can include those who want to have fun and better themselves. My wife is my biggest push for someone who inspires others to be better as well. The sport is a better place with her in it. And others think so as well. HEMA is for everyone. Not all sports are equal, but I think we can find a way to make them better for everyone. Not sorry for the length of this email, not sorry for the girth, but I am sorry about the shape. Love the podcast and all you folks do it over about bad magic. I will always laugh at your nonsense. Even if no one else does three out of five stars wouldn't change a thing. Also fuck you for making me cry at work more than once faithful listener soon to be spaces. Call her or Calder, but I'm gonna say Calder. Well, Calder, no notes. Uh, I can feel the love and kindness that you embody truly pouring forth from your message. Uh, you shared information, practical, personal observations, uh, did it all with a ton of humility. Yeah. Yeah. We can find a way to make him, make him better for everyone. You know, when it comes to polarizing cultural topics like this, like this one, I'm frequently reminded that a lot of people in our culture, in every culture in the world, they just don't want to talk about it. They, and they don't want to change anything. They don't want to frankly, just like deal with anything new of any kind, small things, big things change, just inherently scares. So many people, people who just, you know, they were afraid to have to adapt. Uh, they're annoyed by it. Uh, they don't want to have to ever reassess. They don't like to, uh, reevaluate, but I just think like with that personality type, the world is always changing. So you can be pissed off about it and then just always be pissed off, which a lot of people choose that route. Holy fuck. A lot of people choose that route. And I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. And there is a grumpy motherfucker all the time. Uh, it's always going to change. Always has changed. And I think personally, you're just happier if you accept that and you try to get comfortable with being uncomfortable and that's it. I'm not going to add anything else. Thanks again, Calder. Uh, best wishes to you and your bride. Uh, hope you do have a long and happy marriage and you don't ever cut each other's fucking heads off with your fucking swords. And I thought that was going to be kind of nerdy when I looked into this HEMA thing and I was like, oh shit, they would fucking crush me. I might get badly hurt doing that. Those, those are some bad-ass looking swords. So good for you. Thanks for listening to another Bad Magic Productions podcast. Be sure and rate and review Time Suck if you haven't already. Uh, please don't kill any toddlers this week because you think God told you to, because you think they have the devil in them. And let me add, that is not much to ask. That should be an easy request to fulfill. If it is not an easy request to fulfill, please just go ahead and just fucking lock yourself in a burning building. Don't even bother. To keep on sucking, you're fucking hopeless. Bad Magic Productions. Anathema. Something or someone that is strongly disliked or loathed. A formal curse or banned by a religious authority. Lying is anathema to her, as she values honesty above all else. For centuries, heresy was considered an anathema by the church. Do not make me go full-on fucking curse with you and anathema you. Thank you, knowledge robot.