#50 Radio Pleasure Society - Sex Positive Nightlife w/ Ellen Verheij from Kaleidra

Je luistert naar Ekkertboxradio's. De flex is van gerachte lijken weer. Hetzelfde, maar de stad die is gehoopt. Hoe krijg jij het voor elkaar? Waar haar het groerlevond aan. Ik ben klaar met de vertruiting van de stad. En gezien het donken is er nog ook voor de nacht. Stam zwemd op jas, stam zwemd op jas, stam zwemd op. Oh, oh. Nicholas hè, is vanuit. In de cro TOM van de nacht şond ik in het lekker kracht Het waals lubricant maar duister was het niet. Ook als ik geencent descendants had zonder zorgen in de stad Het waanzelijk maar lucht er was het niet. Hoe krijg jij het lorokkij? Bij een vorenlep van dan? Ik ben klaar met een verkrutin van de stad. En zin het lukkij, is het nu zo voor de stad. Stokst van de stad, stokst van de stad, stokst van de stad. Oh, oh. Oh, oh. En de stad van de stad, stokst van de stad, stokst van de stad, stokst van de stad. En ik ben hier nu voor de stad. En ik ben hier voor de stad. Wat een kijkst. Ja, 50 shows. Ja, ik ben hier voor de stad. Ja, dat is een beetje. Ja, het is mensen hier klaar. Ja, 50 conversations met mensen die hebben een plethora van topics. Ja. En het heeft gewoon been een rijd. Ik lukkig het. Ik lukkig veel van mensen. Ik lukkig iets van mijnzelfde dat ik niet weet of ik starteel om mijnzelfde vragen om topics te kunnen. Ja, het heeft gewoon been zo groot. Dat is een vanaf dat ik op mijn show in de passen. Ik wil het van alles van het kijken. Deel van het kijken, deel van het kijken. Hoe hoef je dat? Deel van het kijken. Of het kijken. En. En het is een hele tijd van deel van het kijken. Dat is de dag, dat is het, ik ben het in. Maar ja, vandaag zijn we in Elen voor High. Ja, het is wel mooi om je hier te hebben. Je is van Kaladro Studio. Ja, correct. Dat is wel in de mic. Dat is mijn business, dat is correct. Ja, dat is mijn business. En we gaan het om een sekspositive nightlife teken. Ik heb echt gezegd dat ik een shift of een wavere clubnight is gebeurd, het is het op Amsterdam, omdat ik het op Amsterdam ben. Dat is meer. Ik weet niet, het is zin om op de sekspositive spaces te maken. De sekspaces kunnen te maken, de plekken kunnen te maken. De sekspaces kunnen te maken, of de weinig waar dat te zijn. Ik denk dat dat is ook een heel interessant perspectief. Het is niet dat je een beetje plek kunt te maken, maar ik denk dat je een sekspaces een plek van een club, een heel veel plek van de plek van het kijken. Dat is anders als je het heerste hebt, of je het heerste hebt, of je het heerste hebt, of je het heerste hebt, of je het heerste hebt, is het echt de acte in de sekspaces. In de sekspaces? - Ja, ik denk dat Ellen en ik met elkaar ontvangen, en we klikken en ik denk dat het echt goed is om aan de show te laten zien. Dus een beetje om je te zien. Het is een heel lang bio. Ja, maar het is goed, het is goed dat je een heel divers en heel interessant portfolio is. Dus je is een tevrouw en een social designer, een van de enige tevrouw, waarom je de man die de way ze doen, je stelde een bachelor, een communicatie en een racitie en een masters in een innovatie. Het is een heel interessant perspectief, met een thesis op authenticie en de influence van rolmodelen. Wat was dit om te brengen op de patriarchie en in een meer ondersteuning, wat er een stuk te ontvangen. Het eerste stuk te ontvangen. - Interesting. - Ja. - Wat was het de grootste deel van het thesis? Of van de deel van het ondersteuning dat je dit hebt? Ik denk dat het heel persoonlijk is, omdat het een heel lang bioormodel kan worden. En als je een heel lang bioormodel is, of als je iets anders is, is het een heel lang bioormodel. Als je een hele leven in je leven is, dan is het niet tevrouw. Als je iets anders is, is het een heel lang bioormodel. Dat is een heel lang bioormodel. En dat is een heel lang bioormodel. En ik heb het een heel lang bioormodel. Je moet een heel lang bioormodel stelden. - Wow. - Ja, dat is een heel lang bioormodel. Wow, interessant. Dat moet een heel lang bioormodel stelden. En als ik het aan het start heb, heb je een studio called Kalidra. En je werkt op de intersectione van de social safety, inclusie en urbanlife. En je reestelingsvergelijkers die problemen voor de conversations en de koeien en de koeien en de koeien en de koeien. En je werkt ook met de plahrum collectief, die ik was echt interessant. Je bouwt en de plahrum, als een warmer, waar er meer interseerlijker te worden, om de interseerlijker te ontmoeten. - Correct. - Ja, tot dat. Ja, snap. Sex-positief spaces zijn gesloten om genuillemd te komen van alle gender, bodes en sexual orientatie. Great. Ik ben het allemaal voor dat. Kan je ik vertel dat je een space, dat is zo belangrijk. Mijn vanaf is een open door. - Nee, een open door. Ik denk dat je nu nu nu mensen is, zoals je je ziet in de nachtlijf en in de koeien en in de koeien en in de koeien. Je ziet het meer om te worden. Ik denk dat het is omdat we zien dat het een doorkroom van traditionaal is, dat is van de koeien, de koeien, de koeien. En dat is een koeien, natuurlijk. - Ik had een show aan dat, toch? - Ja. Ik had een lot, ik heb veel aan het vergeten. - Oh, mooi. Maar wat we zien is, in de nachtlijf is het nieuwe generatie. Het is niet meer doorkroom, maar meer consent, meer lijst, meer koeien, meer koeien, meer koeien, meer koeien. En dus daar is ook een shift happening, dat is wat we zien. Ja. - En ik denk dat we ook voor het, zoals sex-positief spaces zijn, niet alleen voor gaymen. or they are for everyone. - For everyone, absolutely. And so there's also the daughter shift happening. And I think these times, like everything is more fluent, you know? It's like we're not gay or lesbian, but we are more like, you know, like all these different types of bodies and all these different types of gender. And that's beautiful. But it's also asked for different space and all different approaches. - Yeah, it needs a different environment, right? Not the, well, I'm thinking of a club in Amsterdam called Club Church. Are you familiar with church? - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, and yeah. It's for those that don't know. It's been a gay club for very long time already. - Yeah. - And they have like a more, I would say a more traditional dark room setting that they have downstairs. And they also created a space that's really catering to like making sure it's clean and everything. I actually had someone on the show once about sexuality and design. And he designed the, - Who? - The dark room. But it does cater to that audience, right? It's like, so, but they, I do know they're having more parties in church that are open to different genders and sexual orientations. - Yeah, I think they open up their space like once a week or once a month. - Yeah. - To different genders and, you know, like all sexualities. But I think the space is still, stay the same. And, you know, it's still meal dominated area. - Yeah, it is. - If there's something that you'd change in church, what would you change in terms of the space to cater to a broader audience? - Yeah, I think what you see now, it's like it's a lot of a letter dark. - Why? - Easy to clean. And I think it's all- - That's important. - Yeah, it's important to be important. So, because it's a club life as well, you know? So, but what also, what you see is like it's, if it's more dark, then, you know, it's like it becomes more anonymous sex. And some people love it, that's good. But it's started from a taboo. And I think these times, you know, it's not a taboo anymore if you want to have sex with people. - Yeah, so you can, it doesn't have to be anonymous. - Exactly. - Right, it can be. - And it's okay. - And I think that if I look at myself, I identify as a queer woman, that I think that I'm more interested in the slightly less, yeah, I wanna have more of a connection with the people that I would have sex with. - Yeah, that's more fun, right? - Well, for some people. - Yeah, I guess that's the thing. Like, sometimes you are looking for that ananomated ananominindity, anonymous. - Ananomous, ananomous. (laughing) - God. And sometimes you're not, right? - Yeah. - Okay, interesting. What do you personally to this world? Because you've been kind of, you know, wiggling your way into this night life, you were based in Rotterdam. We'll get to that later in what you're trying to accomplish in Rotterdam and night life there. But what do you personally to this world and what's keeping you in? - Well, for me personally, is I'm, well, I already go to like, BDZ parties and like the bigger Graysland, like Bids, and Waysland, those parties for like, I don't know, for a long time. But it annoys me, it's like, it's more heteronormative. - Yeah. - And it's, it becomes more like, you know, like the consumer party. So you just go there and you just go there for your own fun. And that's it. And what drives me now, it's like, it's more about community, it's more about sex positivity. So it's like more, that's what you try to accomplish. Because it's more, you know, like we tried to gauge to the whole queer community and not only to heteronormative or to cis men. - Yeah. - cis gay men. - Really? Because you were also looking for these spaces. Does that, can I say that? - Yeah, correct, yeah. - And you were like, okay, well, I'm already in these spaces, but it's still, you do experience it as very heteronormative and straight. - It's some spaces, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - And I think also the string is the barclup. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - They become a little bit more queer, you know, sometimes you just meet people that are cool, but you know, it's still, it's very heteronormative. - Yeah. - Very, yeah. - Yeah, I think I agree. - It's still sex positive, but you know, it's different. - Yeah, it is. Nice. How would you describe like a sex positive night life or like these play room settings to someone who's never experienced it? I think there's, I don't assume my listeners know everything about this or have entered these spaces already. What makes a space truly sex positive versus just claiming to be one? Like I'm very curious to know what your take is on that. - Yeah, that's a fair vague line. - Yeah. - Yeah, definitely. I think a sex positive place is a place where people feel safe, - Well, yes. - So you create an atmosphere that's like, welcoming to queer people and you try already, you know, like at the door, you try to pick the people out that's like not intended to be there and they might be, you know, room to place or just, you know, having the own party, but not having that. - They have a, the wrong intention, so to say. - Exactly, yeah, definitely. And so that's already starting there. And I think when, you know, the public is like, you know, mixed, mixed well. And the people are informed about consent and they actually behave like that way. - Yeah. - That makes it more and more sex positive. So it's all about consent, talking, but also, you know, free to express. We are also feeling free to express your, you know, like, it's still dominated by men, certainly. But still, you know, it's like if you're femme presenting men or femme presenting women or non-binary, then it's still, you know, you must feel welcome. And that's, I think that's the most important part. And that's still hard to find. - Yeah, interesting. I was actually at, I'm thinking about my experience from last night actually, I was at Stryptopia, which was really fun. I've been to Stryptopia before for those that don't know. It's a night club or like a strip performance night that is kind of taken out of strip clubs and put into, I guess, more different public spaces, like a club or like, in this case, the Melkweg, which is like really a pop venue, like a, like a, - Okay. - where there's usually gigs and club nights. So it was the first time I went to Stryptopia at Melkweg. And before I'd been to Stryptopia at a queer club in Amsterdam called Tillatech. And it was very interesting to experience the difference in audience. - Cool. - Yeah. - It was a mesh, a mixture of a lot of, actually quite some, I would say, straight men. And also queer people that have maybe been before. And it was, I had to get used to it a little bit. But at the same time, I thought this is great because you're now bringing these audiences together that would never have met each other. - Definitely. - The founder of Stryptopia Maggi, she's great. She's really good at also explaining where Strypt culture comes from and educating people on that. And also talking about consent while you're there. So there were signs everywhere saying consent is sexy. There were people walking around with like, trays of water to hand out. And that really created like this really safe environment. Like there's not a playroom. But it is a space where there's a lot of sex happening, basically, you know what I mean? Like not real acts of sex, but a very sexy environment. - I think the playfulness and like the body positivity and also acting not inside the norm, but outside the norm, but still celebrating it. And I think that's very, also very important. - Yeah. - It's like sex is the sex, but everything around is super more interesting, I guess. - Yeah, and I think that these straight men that I saw were being educated in how to interact with someone like a stripper performer. And they might not know that there's really important rules. You don't just touch, you have to ask. And only when they give consent is that you can do whatever. And other than that, if you don't get consent, you don't touch. You know, I mean, this sounds very obvious for us, but I think that that is, was a very interesting thing to see yesterday because it was not the usual queer audience that I am surrounded by. - Yeah, that's good. - Yeah, it was really good. Nice, okay. - The next question. And then I think we'll have a little break with some more music 'cause I love the music you brought along. How do you think the scene has evolved over the past few years? Like what's driving the change in what I described at the start of the show? Like really seeing like a wave of these sex positive spaces and playrooms in club, clubs? - Yeah, I think we are, except two more that's, you know, like exploring sex positivity in clubs. And also exploring more our queer creatives, maybe? - Yeah. - Yeah, young people. So for me, his nightlife is really about exploration, about like trying to figure out who you are and it's also, you know, like finding like minded people. And sex positive places are really about it, you know? You can dress up the way you like, you can play with it like performing different genders or I don't know, colors or maybe pop of kink or whatever you want. And that's also, you know, if you can do it at venue, like safely, then that's learned something about yourself. Like why do I feel comfortable in this kind of, you know, clothing and do I feel comfortable with kind of people around me? - Right. - And yeah. So and I think we are just accepting that more and more. And it's also the taboo on sex in clubs is, especially in Amsterdam, comes, you know, [BLANK_AUDIO] It's not a big taboo anymore. Yeah, it's changed. It's changed, yeah. If I look back to when I started clubbing, what I was quite young, like, and I lived in Utrecht, a very different scene, way more of a student city and all, but this was just not. it did not exist. In the spaces I was going to. No, yeah, I think it's just the gaysing. Yeah, that's not for us. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It really was very compartmentalized, right? It was like the gaysing, that was the gays, and then you had, yeah, interesting. I used to go to these parties called Pum, Pum Face Them, which is quite a known, like, I don't know, baby gay party in a way, like, that's how I. Yeah. And it was so. It was really not this. It was just like. It was just so different. It was really just going there and just being around other queer people, but not anything focused on like the sex or sex positivity of it, really. So I think that's an interesting wave. Nice. All right, so I do ask all of my guests to bring along some music. We started off with the status from us from Sophie Stratt. Why did you actually bring that song along? I think if you talk about Nightlife and also the venues in Nightlife, it's, you know, like, the city belongs to the citizens, and not so, you know, like, rural states, people, companies, and businesses. And that's really important to figure out. It's like, okay, we own X-Leed Street, and we own the venues around it. And we can build it the way we actually want it, well, that's hopefully because, you know, it's like. I think the city also. The venue was popping up and, you know, everything that's organized by the month, like, you know, it's like what's happening inside society. So it's also very fluent. And different, you know, like I remember. Well said, I think that she also really is so good at being like a. She's advocating for a lot of very important things. Yeah. I love that. I actually see there's a question in the chat. Hello to Ramsey, by the way. Nice to have you in. And Deepa, Ellen, what do you think the best sex positive night life events are anywhere in the Netherlands? Curious to hear your top three and why? I'm always very resistant about, you know, stating my one, two, three. Because I think every party has their own wins or sparkles, and every party has something different. So it's it's more about what you're looking for what what are your favorites? Okay. That's okay, you can have your opinion for me. It's a line. It's a Rotor Saham a line Yes, okay and how do we spell that I A L Н I line I let me get it right it in the chat, right? Okay, and the seconds is Uh, yes I know that one and The third might be more a play party not like necessarily nightlife. I think it's no no That's also in Rotordam. No, it's a mostly in Brugla. Oh, okay, so it's kind of like a yeah, it's not a party. It's not a party So it's more like you know like more play and people gathering But you know, is it a queer space? It is okay? Yeah because swinging in the queer scene is not like you said It's a little bit more of a hit had her normative thing to know yes, I do so what they tend to do is like bringing people together that's you know like Well, they call it in between BDs M and swinging, but it's right just cute people and nice And can you if you pick one so Pax Roman or a line what if you pick one and say why is that one weird fate one of your favorites? Well, a line is it'll do. I mean I fucking love this, you know people that are gonna Yeah, yeah, but they're doing for the city. It's something great Yeah, I cheering for you guys. Oh, okay nice and Yeah, and what they do is it's try also, you know like normally it's on the Sundays and they have food and I just come there and chill out and you know like meet people. It's also very sex positive. So it's like in cute Good mix of you know good music People coming together food just hang out. That's so nice. It's a during the day. You're not necessarily okay normally because well Sunday. Yeah, Sunday, but not a club is closing so I don't know the name of the club is called a line or the party Yeah, it was always in one on the Ciske gay Kaka K. Yeah, and it's closing the venue is closing so now the hosting like in export is also a new It's a new club and rather than I've heard good things. So in the hosting a new Saturday evening so that's something new. Okay. I do like the Sunday Aspect to this be to okay. Well deep. I hope we have some answers for you. You should go check out Rotterdam Anyway on for some music something completely different, but I thought wow that's such a great choice Ninessimone with Lylec wine. Yeah, enjoy I lost myself on a cool damn Gave myself in that misty light Was hypnotized by strange Delight under a lie-locked tree I made wine from the lie-locked tree Put my heart in its recipe It makes me see what I want to see Be what I want to be When I think more than I want to think do things I never should do I drink much more than I want to drink Because it brings me back you I like wine is sweet and heavy like my love I feel I'm steady like my love Listen to me I cannot see clearly Isn't that he coming to me Nearly here I like wine is sweet and heavy Where's my love I like wine I feel I'm steady where's my love Listen to me why is everything so hazy Isn't that he all am I going crazy dear I like wine I feel I'm ready For my love Feel I'm ready For my love Nina Simone So beautiful lie like wine Ellen why did you bring that song along First of all this voice So beautiful Nina It's a strong woman for me but you know we just talk about it See it wasn't that nice I think it's a very strong woman Her voice is just fucking amazing And I brought this song because it's also the imagination Of you know like this lie like wine So it's like red wine more or less But it's I don't know my imagination just makes it so Beautiful but there's also some kind of nostalgic in it Because it's also things about you know like if you just drink a little bit more wine And then you can withdraw yourself from the world and just have the imagination, like the hallucination actually about the version you miss. Yeah. I think it's, I don't know if it is the best copic strategy, but I think, yeah, sometimes. Yeah, definitely, definitely. There's nothing wrong with it. You know, like have a drink and then, you know, dwelling around to your ass or else. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, it's kind of, can be a little cathartic. And that way, beautiful. For those that are just tuning in, this is Radio Pleasure Society on Echobox Radio. It's my 50th show. I'm very, very proud of that. Thank you also, Echobox. I think I forgot to do a big shout out to you at the start for having me be part of the Echobox fam and resident for so long. It's great. And today, I'm speaking to Ellen for High from Collider Studio. Hi. You're here about sex positive night life. It's been a very interesting conversation already. And we've had some people in the chat asking some questions. So they love that. If you have any more, just drop them there and we'll try to answer them. Okay, moving on. I was wondering, like, creating sex positive spaces in night life, consent is obviously very important. I was explaining earlier that I was at a strip, a strip topia last night. A night all around strip culture kind of brought out of the strip club scene into like different clubs. And it was very clear how they were communicating about how important consent is towards the performers. But like, in your eyes, what does genuine consent culture look like practically in a night life setting? Is it very similar to what I described? Or are there like well run venues that are implementing it well? Maybe things that are new that are like having a sign saying consent to sex is one thing. But maybe there's more things that you've seen that you are very excited about. Yeah, of course. It's start all with communication. And especially night life and music is loud. And it's like so many overwhelming prickles. Like lots of smiles. And like a lot of smells. And it might be hard to communicate. So I think it's always good to start with your own boundaries. Like, what do I feel tonight? How do I feel? What I'm actually willing to do or where do I draw the boundaries? And that's, if you don't know your own boundaries, you can't give consent willingly. You just do something. That's also awkward for the other person because they always will tell that you just don't know your boundaries and just go on and just do something. So I think it's very strong if you just know your boundaries and talk about it. This is how I feel today. It's like this is what I want to try. Or this is how I draw the line. What can a club setting, what can the organizers do to motivate that? Because I can imagine that if you've never been to a party like that before and you enter the space, you don't know where your boundaries are. They'll be crossed. Sometimes I think that that's not a bad thing. I think that in order to know where your boundaries are, they might need to be crossed once, twice, maybe, and then you'll be like, "Oh right, that's where it is." It's about exploration and also exploration. How far do you willing to go with your exploration? And you can also speak it out loud. It's like, "Okay, I don't know if I like it, but I could try it." I think when a boundary is crossed, it's not a big problem. When you can talk about it and when you feel acknowledged about it. When you can speak about it. But it becomes a trauma when it becomes a shame or a taboo. And you can't speak about it or someone else's guess-lighting is like, "No, this never happened." That's so terrible. So I think that's where trauma starts. But when you say, "Okay, this happened." It wasn't. I didn't really like it. It was weird or it wasn't good for me. Well, I learned a lesson and you can actually acknowledge for yourself. Like, for yourself. Because it's also important. Because we just tend to. When bad stuff happens, sometimes you just tend to shut our eyes. And then don't look into it. It doesn't feel good today. Don't want to figure it out. But there's also stigma as intervals, of course. On looking at your inner inward, is that what you mean? So I think it's all started with how you feel. Like figure out what your own boundaries are for the nights. And that's an easy. I say an easy thing. But sometimes quite tough to figure out what the boundaries are. But then you have to start somewhere. So you saying this, actually thinking to myself, I've actually not been to many of these spaces. I've been to KitKatClub. That was interesting. There were really fun to experience. But I also have heard that KitKatClub isn't always that nice. There's a lot of things that also happen there that aren't that great. The night I went to was a queer night. So I really did make a difference. But I'm thinking, let's say you're going to a queer. Or to a sex party or a sex positive club night anywhere. What if there's someone there that it's not like an awareness team, which is like a team of people that wanders around and kind of keeps an eye on people. You can go to them with questions, etc. But what if there's a dedicated. I don't know, like a teacher type of therapist or someone that is trained to be there in a separate space and just brain storming here. I know. I would love it. That's there. And you can talk to them about. So what. What is a wasteland? So on summer fest we have a stand. We have to talk to us about consent. And you know, this can come up to us and there's like a tent. And you know, like people can come into the tent when they feel the need to. What kind of people come in? What's their main. I think mostly people just walk by and it's like they're intrigued or something. But you know, it's like the public doesn't talk that much sadly. But because there's a lot to learn, but they just add to parties. But I think I love it when you host. Well, a party. And you do have like education around it. Because it's. You know, how else would new people actually learn how to behave and how to. behave, you know, like in such spaces? So I think it's very good to have like some kind of education. And we try always to post it online. So people know the rules and people know the intention. But they can expect it. I think that's really important to figure it out. And what we also do is be host, you know, those spaces. So we're there for people to just, you know, like they come up to us like, "Okay, this is the first time. Okay, please, you know, help me out." Okay, that does happen. Yeah, right. I'm just almost thinking like it's having like an intimacy coordinator on set at a film. I'm almost thinking like what if you create a role for someone that is. that is again trained, educated in what they like in being there and having like a. I don't know, some foundation in this knowledge of intimacy and consent. I'm just. Very smooth. Most of the time. There's people that. It's not awareness team, right? I really see it as like a person or two people or whatever. No, it's also awareness, but awareness bliss. Awareness bliss. And how does that then express. Can you give me an example of what that looks like? I'm just really curious. Yeah, so what happens is when people want to talk to you because we're trained as well, we know stuff and there's like always someone else that actually knows more. Right. So if they really have one-half a chat, we just, you know, take them to a more quiet space and we have a chat with them. And also when people, you know, like don't understand how to behave, we just bring them with us and just have a chat with them. Yeah. And not, you know, like on. You've done something wrong. Well, we try to be explicit and really because otherwise, you know, it's. They also party and sometimes it's just tough, but yeah, we try more, like, you know, like learning and holding space and have a conversation and then you can see what the intention are. And if it's actually, you know, like they want to learn or some people don't want to learn. You've experienced it all. Yeah, of course. Okay. Just seeing it all. Yeah, that's the thing. Like I haven't been in the role that you have. So I find it very. It's intriguing to know what does really happen at these parties that you don't see, right? Is there like an etiquette or. We've talked that we've touched upon this quite a lot already. But like, is there an etiquette or unwritten code that regular. Like, regular is like you understand, but like newcomers might not. Is there something that you've seen kind of recur in these conversations that you've had with people that you're like, "Ah, it might be good for you to know this." I think people, especially heteronormative people, and well, man. Okay. They say that. Yeah, yeah, but they try to. You know, it's like, okay, if it's just looked into the numbers. Like 99% of women between 20-25 and nightlife has been experienced sex crossing behavior. So that's like everyone. And what you see is like also some people don't know how to behave. And they, you know, when you post a. they just touch your bum or something. It's like they just touch your body. It's like this fucking annoying. Don't do this shit. - Yeah. - And, but I also think, it's more like learn behavior or something. And they don't-- - It's kind of like it's fine, right? - It's fine, it's nothing. It's just me touching your bum. It's kind of like this. - Yeah, but it's greedy, you know? It's like, oh, I like your bum, I touch it. It's like, what the fuck, no. It's my bum. - It's my bum. - You can ask it, you know? And of course, my ass is fucking amazing. - Yeah. - But don't just touch it. - Without asking, yeah. - There you go. - So that's like, I mean, obviously, that's really centered on consent. - Yeah. - But also, you know, it's like, the intention you have there, it's like the mindset you're there. If you see something and you take it, that's like a different mindset than when you just, you know, like-- - Have a conversation and have the dialogue. - Yeah, yeah, be playful. And, you know, it's like this taking this, in the end of the end of the realism. - Individualism, yeah. - Yeah, that's not, you know, it's like, doesn't make the dance floor and does make the party better. So I think that's behavior-- - That's a really good thing. Okay, so let's say it again, individualism does not make the dance floor better. - No, definitely not. - Okay, that's a really, I think that's really good advice because it's slightly different than the obvious, or maybe open door of like consent is key. But like, I think it's a lot about this individual mindset of like, I want this, so I'm going to take it. And it's kind of mine because that's been taught through the patriarchy. And we can go beyond that, obviously. But like, interesting. Okay, very good advice. I'm thinking maybe we can do one more song and then we round it up with maybe one or two more questions. Okay, so next song, love it. It's my life, from no doubt. Why did you bring that song alive? - I think, I brought me back to my youth or when I was younger and it's like, I just love to scream it out. And it's like, it's my fucking life. Don't, you know, like interrupt it. And yeah, of course, you know, like stuff happens in my life as well. And it was always easy. And I think it's freeing when you just understand that it's your life and you could do whatever you want. - But I don't have to do it. - Exactly. - Yeah. - On to that. It's my life, no doubt. (upbeat music) ♪ Funny how I found myself in love with you ♪ ♪ If I could find my reason in a page of news ♪ ♪ And one half won't do ♪ ♪ My best myself, how much do you know ♪ ♪ I'll collect yourself ♪ ♪ Always my life ♪ ♪ Don't you forget ♪ ♪ It's my life ♪ ♪ You never will ever ♪ ♪ Funny how I found myself in love with you ♪ ♪ Now I sometimes get a pound of free tools ♪ ♪ All of them are still what could do ♪ ♪ Come into my self ♪ ♪ Always my life ♪ ♪ Don't you forget ♪ ♪ Always my life ♪ ♪ You never will ever ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ I'll collect myself ♪ ♪ How much do you know ♪ ♪ I'll collect yourself ♪ ♪ Always my life ♪ ♪ Don't you forget ♪ ♪ Call me my friend ♪ ♪ It never ends ♪ ♪ It's giving my life ♪ ♪ Don't you forget ♪ ♪ It's calling the prayer ♪ ♪ It never ends ♪ - Yes, no doubt it's my life. Such a good track. I haven't heard that in so long. Love it. - It's an oldie. - It is an oldie. And I was looking at the video clip when the video clip came out. I was like, yeah, I fucking loved that. Anyway, for those that are just tuning in, this is Radio Pleasure Society on Echobox Radio. As always, we are speaking to Ellen for High from Kaladra Studios today about Sex Positive Nightlife. It's been a very interesting conversation so far. I've learned a lot. If you have any questions for the last 10, 13 minutes or so, please drop them in the chat. If you're just a silent listener, that's completely fine, obviously. I have some more questions for you. So this is a big one. How do you see Sex Positive Nightlife intersecting with broader conversations around mental health, body image and self-expression? Because I think there's something there, but I'm curious on what you think on that. - Oh yeah, definitely. So I describe myself as a Pleasure Activist. And it's also a Pleasure Activist. Well, it's really important actually to have, you know, like yourself image is good. And it's like you just few grounded. And it's like not overdoing stuff or just, you know, like just partying, partying, partying. No, it's like you're doing partying and like laid back. And so it's about the balance as well. But also, sexual health is really important. Because otherwise, if it's dangerous for your physical body, then you can't feel safe, right? So Sex Positive is also about how do we see ourselves and how can I be safe? And do we have to all the information around, well, sexual health? But also, you know, like about all the different forms of anticocepsi, but also, you know, like, everything around it. So it's very important. Like, and it's also being a sex, then you bring your mental health into it as well. - Yeah, of course you do. And what do you think, how do you think it can connect to like a body positive? Like, obviously, I think more in queer spaces, it's very important to, you'll see more different types of bodies, right? I think that that is, like, a given. I think maybe in more gay or male-dominated spaces, it's slightly different. I know that there's a lot of difficulty in gay men kind of feeling like they have to be very buff and like very, you know, worked out and all of that. How do you think that going to like a sex party or like a club night where there is like a play room can contribute to like a better body image? I think it's so liberating to actually dress the way you want to dress and to be playful and being around like-minded people and also express your, you know, like your sexuality and be playing around in the way you actually want to. And that can be, you know, like cuddling or maybe just some, you know, like not only penetration, but you know, f-ting around it. And that's what we also try to stimulate. So not only penetration, but actually more, f-ting around it and the talks and that's all, you know, that's sex as well. I think that's more sex than actually doing the- - The actual act. - Yeah, the actual act, the deed. Yeah, I get what you mean. Yeah, I mean, it's maybe, I wrote this question down because I was like, this is maybe very much of like, you know, obviously if you explore yourself in that kind of space, you will be interacting with different bodies, you'll be able to like express yourself in a way that you might not have been able to do before. But that's also a lot of judgment, you know, because we all have judgment around itself and around other people and when you see other people, like, you know, interacting with each other, it can be very freeing as well. And- - Yeah, right. - Shape your mind, shape your ideas and perspectives about, well, everything. Yeah. Out of interactive thoughts and what's normal, where, you know, like normal. Yeah, whatever normal is, right? You know, just human, because for me sex is not something sacred. It's something grounding. It's human. It's so in who we are. It makes us a human, like without sex we wouldn't really. Yeah, absolutely. Is there something specific that you've learned since being in these types of spaces that we haven't touched upon yet? I learned so much. Pick one or two things. Well, this stuff on. If you don't feel want to answer it from a personal perspective, that's also really fine. Yeah, I think it's very liberating just to just the way you want. And I think other people are, if you feel incompetent and feeling secure in your body, then it's easier actually to interact with other people and you feel better as well. And also not only during nightlife, but also during the day. So that's very true. So it's kind of like going from the night into the day that you feel more, could you say that you started to feel more confident in yourself since going to these kinds of parties? Definitely. And I learn about consent. It's like, now I can say to my works like no. Or I can do it, but tomorrow, because today's full. So it is also becomes-- And that's something that has been-- Absolutely. That's a boundary that you can say that's my boundary, right? But could you say that that's been easier for you to do since you've been in these spaces? Wow, that's great. I think maybe we are millennials. And we didn't learn how to say no. That's very true. And I think it's very powerful to actually say no to something. And not like-- And you don't have to explain it, but it's good if you want to explain it or just make a negotiation and say, OK, this is not what I want, but I can do something different. That's definitely something that you learn in these spaces. I can vouch for that. I remember being at a whole festival-- not whole. Sorry, I'm confused. No-wear festival. Are you familiar with it? I've never been there, but yeah. It's a burn festival. I think I might have spoken on this on the show before. But I went there in 2017. It was way before the word consent was kind of like-- at least in the Netherlands was really like present in Nightlife around me. And I remember arriving, really not knowing that it was going to be a very sex heavy festival. And again, it's a burn event, right? So there's nothing there really-- you really kind of create your own festival by being part of a camp, et cetera. But I remember being surrounded by so many people that were just so in tune with what they needed and what they wanted and what they could and couldn't give and the wheel of consent and all of that. All of these things were so-- I was like, wow, these people know so well how to say exactly what they need. I went to a workshop where someone got-- you could kind of attend and also experience like an electrode, a machine thing, which is like, when the fuck am I going to do that? So I went there. And the person that was doing the workshop with people were kind of the shocking, whatever. He said that-- Electroplay. Yeah, electroplay. Like very far removed from my cup of tea, really. But I was very curious. But what he said or not but he said, I'm going to do this on your forearm. And you're going to have to tell me exactly if you want me to stop. You like what it is or you want more. And if you are not clear with me, I will stop. And I thought it was very interesting. There were a couple instances where-- and I did not experience the electro on my body, but by being present in that space and seeing that interaction. And there were a couple people that came up and they weren't clear to him. He was very strict actually. He was like, you're not clear to me. So you have to be clear. You want more? Do you want to stop? What do you want? And it was very, very good to see that happen. I think that was the first time that I saw something like that. And it really got me. So I can imagine that if you're surrounded around people that are better at this than you are maybe, you'll pick up on it. Right. Pick up on the way they talk to each other and figure out where the boundaries are. Yeah, because they become your friends. And then you talk about all this stuff. And then you learn-- It's a practice. You can learn it. Exactly. OK. One last question. We have five more minutes. Let's keep it short. But what do you think? What does the future of these sex positive night life situations and parties look like to you? Where do you hope it goes? Well, I felt for more exclusivity. So that more bodies are allowed and more gender. And they're still-- we still, you know, like in a revolution, I guess. OK. They're still something going on. And so I hope that more people learn from-- well, when they kids about consent and say no and list to the bodies and actually normalize sex or having sex. Of course, it's not for everyone. But it's beautiful that it is there. And people can actually explore it. And you're advocating for this. And rather than a lot, right? Yeah, definitely. Are you lobbying with the municipality on rules and regulations around this? That's great. And you're doing that from Collider Studio. Yeah. And playroom collective, maybe a bit of both. It's like-- it's a mix of everything. Because it's like also my activism. Of course, there's learning of an earnsoffing from it, sadly. But yeah, no, I try to accomplish something. Amazing. Well, Ellen, thank you so much for being on my show. And for opening up about this topic and teaching people hopefully a bit more about sex-positive nightlife. For those that are curious, go to Pax Romana, to Alain. Alain. And maybe this play party that's in Brooklyn called Nook. Yeah. OK, yes. We can drop those in the chat as well. Thank you, everyone, that tuned in today to my 50th show on Echobox Radio. I am very, very grateful. Thanks. Thank you all. We're going to close off with one more track. B-J-B, Dutch Track. Yeah. Very cute from Bubs. Thanks so much for tuning in. Next show is on, I think, June 20th. And it's going to be on Islam and the sexuality in the new world. It's going to be so interesting. So definitely tune in. See you then. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING]