#5 / Small Talk with Rasmus from SLA

Welcome to another small talk, today I have my friend, good friend Rasmus Astrup, I have no idea if I mentioned it correct, it's pretty good. My Danish is getting there. And as usual we are recording this small talk here in my office in slush with some guests from our team and as usual we have a friend to join us and just before we started recording Rasmus that I will introduce a little bit better was asking me how do I choose the people that come to these to these talks so before that a little bit of context I met Rasmus in London when two, almost two years ago maybe almost two years ago while I was on a tour around Europe inviting architects to come to Abu Dhabi and do a project and you were part of a group a team that actually didn't get selected correct I will listen that for the rest of my life but we were in a beautiful office funny enough my memory of that office is that all the furniture was alvarato in that meeting room it was the the stools in the chat and at Allies and Morrison and we met yes you are not selected for the project but I would actually think that I chose you I would allow myself to start because if I can give my reflection of that memory it was in Allies and Morrison's studio that I know very well I have been collaborating with him for many years and working in London and it was one of the first time weirdly enough that my London network got linked with my Abu Dhabi network because it was in our things in Abu Dhabi we were always us it's very rare that that we work without architects that's only here where we are actually on our own which is a privilege so so being in that like more sterile yes it was alvarato there is some wood but it is kind of it's very it's very designed it's uber uber architecturally designed you can see and smell and feel it's an architecture studio and then this Portuguese guy came in quite undressed compared to the rest of them and and there was the informal introduction I was like why did they I mean they brought him just to carry a box or I don't understand the purpose of this guy and then you're very very calmly and slowly after we did formal introductions we did slideshows which is what architects often do presented this project with a box a box of materials box of textures a box of small hidden gems there was a picture I clearly remember the picture of it was for a building from the 70s and and the guys who designed it were really out of this world awesome and I remember you brought some pictures where they're standing in probably the shortest pair of shorts I've ever seen with a shirt that only has one bottom open in the chic palace with a cigarette obviously long hair because that was how it was designed and you you kind of reminded me of that whole thinking that people often don't have because I've been here not as many years but I've been here in many years 10 years in UA and maybe how many years have you actually been 15 15 so you brought both that informality and and lack of understanding of the richness of the of the history of the place and then the aesthetic presence of things that are also represented here that I completely love telling stories without just a power point so so so maybe I would like to say that I chose you because we at least grew out of that group and I will I will tell a little bit more about the next encounters but we it's very easy to get lost in our conversations because we talk about everything being our most common passion miles and inner planes and launches and stuff but we can't forget to introduce the company that you represent SLA Copenhagen based I don't want to call landscape being landscape ourselves a nature based science studio perfect so that describes you you can they they want to come and bring your coffee there's mercy so we you have a really future exposed today I'm so getting so much thank you so much mille can't know about all the tension that you're getting at least tonight so we you have this you are partner in SLA yeah so what is SLA so SLA is it's a nature based science studio we we do work as landscape architects we design parks but we do it with a different mindset because I think that we start with value and experience inspiration from nature so we have biologists we have anthropologists we have a philosopher you've been in my studio where there was a philosopher Andreas who started the workshop and so so so it's because we we're driven by that knowledge and that complexity that not just nature but cities represent and if you want to solve that and work with it you need those arguments it's not the full answer I always need engineers I need great designers like like slash I need many different stakeholders in our the solutions that we together in a collaboration with others make but I think our approach is is a bit different from others because we are we are not just starting with a shape or a color or we just starting with a discussion we could start with a materiality most often most often a problem a narrative and no that's exactly what you brought in that into that meeting you didn't start it with that right you also started with a it was a storage and it was a box of stories and and that's really aligned with with how we work and and then of course being here today with you is also something and and you said there was no genders I'm just kind of freestyle and talk here because I think what people also don't understand is that you mentioned the name of my wife and I couldn't also mention the name of Martha but it's that's also something that is the the friendship and the trust that you build here in Abu Dhabi is a bit different than anywhere else it's also different in slash and the way they treat the company but I think that's also what people don't understand that it's very personal and family are insated and and it makes it a bit deeper it's also making you rely on these connections so of course it's not just you can just not just walk into the face of anyone and get that trust but when you have it and if you cherish it you can you can just accomplish so much more here because it is it's a different way to engage here it's there is a culture culturally different from being correct and I would say that I would say us and you we don't connect this way with everyone so we meet we meet a lot of people and I'm I'm sure there's a lot of reasons why that connection happened but I remember the first project we did together which was I mean you came to spend a week or 10 days in Abu Dhabi to get immersed in a project it was what last than a year after we met the first time we tried to work several times together we couldn't find the right platform and then that project happened and I would say that the connection that happened between me and you and slush and SLA comes from this high intensity not only professional intensity, but also emotional intensity that you approach the projects. And that you don't look at them as just another deliverable. But, and I remember, John is here in the room, Michele is here in the room. And they were part of that week where we were traveling around Abu Dhabi. And we could see the difference between you and your team and other professionals on the really high intensity that you take. Is that the characteristic of Rasmus, or is that the characteristic of SLI? Is that characteristic of Danish? I don't think it's, and sorry for all of the thousands of Danish listeners, but I don't think it's Danish. I don't think it's Danish. I don't. I think the passion that I have and that I also believe my dear colleagues have is a global thing. The reason why I like talking to you is because you have a passion. You care about it's not just a project, when we meet, we talk about that when we present here with you and that the presentation becomes the project even right. So you take everything to the next level and I think that's driven by passion. And if you have passion, if you have a set of values, I think what to answer your question, I think we spend a lot of time in SLI debating what our values are. So we debate what is important and also what's not important. We debate how to prioritize not necessarily of a relationship to a shape. It often end up looking a little bit of the same, but it's driven by a shared understanding of values. And we cherish that a lot, we actually spend, I would say, also the business owner, not maybe too much time on internal investigations and development, but I still freaking love it, that we have circles, in SLI, we call them circles. And in every circle we discuss, there's a circle for soil, there's a circle for plants, there's a circle for design, render, storytelling, whatever. We have circles and all of them actually end up in nature, so often people go and engage with each other in nature. So I think the reason why you get a little bit of the same when you say it was my beloved colleague, Sooner and I, who was there, he's also a unique personality, so I won't just say he's an average, Joe, he's definitely not here, there's not many like him, but I think that there is that shared level of passion, there's not always the same energy, I feel like I have sometimes more energy than others, but it's not that I am mad about others not having, sometimes I try to control it, but I actually get energized by my work. But that connects well with the curiosity I have, which is nature and not wanting to reduce to landscaping what you do, but nature in general, it's one of those things that kids, children, like being a veterinarian, every child at some point wanted to be a veterinarian, and at some, every child at some point wanted to just work with nature or be in nature. In a way, and I'm your friend to say this, you are kind of a child that still likes to go around this subject, and it's not a technical question, it's not a project, question is, I know about your dietary requirements, and so it goes, you take it in a very consistent and coherent way across, where did that happen, is it because soon as it's kind of the same, the intensity, the way that it looks at this work is not as a work, but as it's contributing for something. Yeah, it is a way of living it is, I attended a conference even though you and I dissipated a lot, but I attended a conference recently, which led to me writing an article to a big national magazine, and I've done a few essays before, and the purpose is always that I need to explain what a request is always about how does SLA work, and the best way for me to explain is often a relationship to myself. It's not because I want to talk about myself or break, but my garden, for instance, is kind of an SLA project. I used my childhood, I just came, and we just had a lecture, all my childhood memories are from nature, from playing around, I mean, I grew up in a hippie society, imagine me sitting without any clothes on just shoveling a dirt ball. That's not imagined, but free-minded kids, you know, excavating holes in bare soil, filling it up a completely muddy plant. I even planted trees, actually, as a kid and my mom told me to help with the garden and stuff, so I always had my, got my fingers dirty, and I think that, that whole childhood thing is something I actually was thinking about this morning, because I noticed that the last time I was with you, you were also carrying your back with your laptop, of course, a Mac and all of that, but you're also carrying a machinery because you had to do something in your physical workshop. And we discussed how can you take the time to build it. I renovated a lot of my house myself as well. I love that, I love to take care of the walls, plant the trees, shovel, get my hands dirty, and I think the best designers are also someone who actually create things physically themselves, because otherwise it becomes theoretical and that's also needed in this society, but I really think I got a lot of my passion from the boys, from doing physical work myself, and to see that you can implement it, to see that you can do that. I think I'm still driven by that, that belief that I had, my biggest dream was a swimming pool, but nobody had my parents never allowed me that, so I just excavated a hole and took the water pipe and filled it up. It was muddy and black, but I felt I had my own swim. So I just built my own swim pool, nobody told me, so I think that whole, I'm still living that dream. You kept that energy. That connects really well with something, so you have also been part of our final draft and the Abu Dhabi sessions that we organized here, and every year we have a theme, and the theme of this year, and these sessions in a way contributed, even knowing that they supposedly are timeless and they will last more than this year, but the theme of this year is Craftsmanship, and we are really interested this year in talking about Craftsmanship, and obviously the first temptation when speaking about Craftsmanship is to think about Carpentry, or Pottery, or any that connects with Fabrica, but here in the room we have graphic designers, we have strategies. You just made that connection, you just said the designer, even if the designer works with a laptop and with a computer, it needs to get into the physical world. Is that a connection with Craftsmanship? For you to be a good Craftsmanship or Craftsmoman, you need that, you need to use your hands. Yeah, because then you understand, I mean, for me, it's essential because I am my end product, sometimes it's a book, sometimes it's a strategy, right? It's a master plan, or it's an urban strategy, and so a framework plan, you can't say master plan anymore, by the way. It goes back to the fact of having a master for the slavery, so that is now an abandoned word, so yeah, I know. I think here you can say it. Don't put that in the podcast, but yeah, it's crazy, so you are not allowed to say that anymore. I didn't know that. So that's that's the, I was in New York, where I was, I was in structure. Correct. Yeah, it reminded. By the way, the CEO of AJ. So they have to, but let's not open up all that whole debate in this discussion, but I think that's an interesting question, but maybe for another podcast. I mean, how those influences, those ideas, kind of shape, ended up shape, because again, and pushing back again, these two things are parallel discussions that I have been having with some members of our team. The craftsmanship and these influences, the cultural, I don't know if we can call them cultural influences. This society, maybe society influences that we have of deduces and don'ts, what you can you cannot do. And connecting it with the craftsmanship, I have the feeling, because I have the craftsmanship in my family, I have the feeling that the touch, the doing stuff, the building stuff, kind of grounds you and gives you a different perspective of the priorities and the importance of things, even when you're talking about the difference between working in a computer and using your hands. The reason why I also believe that we need to use our hands is because that moment, all those ideas that were theoretical, they are put in practice and tested. And suddenly, maybe something that you were so convinced, it was right. Suddenly, you're just like, oops, not. And you know why you discovered that? Why? It doesn't work. You can see it immediately. It's not like in the computer, you have five different options. The connection with the society issue is that a lot of times this society is too theoretical, they are not put in practice. So no, that is a super relevant link. But to finish with the need of having physical understanding of materials, firstly, I agree that it's essential, and as you can see, I did it myself, but it's also because a lot of our projects, besides the framework plans, are something that gets built. So imagine having a conversation with a guy I love going on construction sites. I'm just doing fancy lectures. I love sitting and sketching. I love talking to my colleagues who knows way more than I do about any kind of subject. But when I'm here and I can also just go to the construction site, I can see the different things that is wrong. I can write the technical description of it because I'm a nerd, I'm a handser on guy. But it would be strange not to do so, right? If a painter didn't know how to make the colors and what does it mean with this vibrant painting on, so you need that technical, but I also get inspiration from it. My dad was also originally a carpenter, and then he wanted to become more intellectually because of his own dreams. My mom was a school teacher, but grew up on a farm, and she taught me how to make the garden, basically, and so I grew up with, here's a hammer, just go and build something. And I gave that to my kids, by the way, so they constructed things themselves, and it's not dangerous, by the way, that's what people often think. I think it's more dangerous not to make so. So I think back to what you said when you build things, it's just so clear when you fail. I've made a lot of mistakes in my renovation, and it's just punish you. You can't fool yourself. Yeah, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. This table is not stable or whatever it is you're building. So I think I love that. And then going back to how this society is today. Yeah, I think maybe we just discussed it in that lecture I presented it. I think that I agree. There is a practical lack, there's a lack of practical understanding of what all of these major universe things means. And it's funny because you are here today, because for these talks we take advantage of people's calendars. And you're here because you came to speak at an event that we contributed a little bit to, which is the web forum here in Abu Dhabi about early childhood development. And the few people that I met that came to speak or to participate that I met in one way or the other they said exactly what you just said, which is a lot in education has been discussed and challenged and spoken. Because when you put things in practice, when you grab an idea and you put in practice sometimes you realize that that idea can't be implemented or is not that good with the problem in this case that it's people's lives. Maybe if we do a wrong table, whoops, you know, by more wood and you build a new one, but if you mess up with a child's development, it's not you can't undo that as easily. Now, this connection with about the craftsmanship, the design we are both designers and reminds me of you and your process of learning through your mistakes and not only learning from the mistakes but embracing them. Because today, at least two slash, you are the best studio working in Abu Dhabi in terms of nature design. Thank you for that recognition. I think there are other good ones out there. In our opinion, but it was not always like that. We did a lot of mistakes and we learned from them. I mean, my biggest mistake in UAE was I started in Dubai, actually, I'm not in Abu Dhabi. And I came to a meeting and I had my PowerPoint and it was about a stormwater management project in Copenhagen because all our projects are about stormwater. And they just left like you're doing now and told me like, dude, you have no idea what's happening here. I have to be honest about my mistakes. Of course I told them, I do a lot of things. So I went out of that meeting crying and thought, okay, that doesn't work. I need to embrace this not just culture but also environment that is here because every culture is linked to the nature but of course also the condition of the environment. And here it's the heat, it's the sand, it's the sun. And that led to us writing that book that we always talk about. So we spent a whole year writing a book about the species. We couldn't find anything in English. And we wrote a book and that's also how SLA is. Nobody paid me to do that. So we spent a year writing that book, driving around all of the nurseries, understanding the habitats. And then I felt like, okay, I'm ready now to engage with the people that are here. And from that on, we thought we also knew and then we made some mistakes again about what trees can we get and how to replant them because I found out I didn't knew how to do that. So we actually ended up meeting with a professor and some elderly, because here there's a bit of the, I think it goes back to tribes and surviving in the desert, moving from one place to another bringing your stuff with you that is in this culture here that is so powerful. So the knowledge delivered by mouth to mouth to memories to not get built. Those people that started this society, we sit in right now, this kind, they learn from their mistakes big time. And I think so being one that likes to challenge things and are not afraid of mistakes was really what brought us where we are. And we did a faith pack, which was really our signature project here is, is to meet with the elderly. So I would like to say that I'm so honorable that you consider us being experts, but I became that by being humble and learning from someone else. So I went to school. I sat down with the elderly here. I learned how to replant the tree. It's actually a box that you, and you can take one side at a time. So eight, sometimes several months to replant the tree from the desert, nursery tree nurseries into the city. And it goes back to succeed and how we did it. And it's a simple thing. It's about patience, it's respect of how that tree grows. Suddenly, we went to school and learned, and the faith pack is again, it's less than 5% and I just think. The way we then work is like, oh, that's amazing. Now we know how to plant trees. Then we got a new project. So this is leading up to why do we make mistakes? Then we got to work in Misa. And I saw all of these existing trees standing next to the warehouses. I cannot tell what I'm exactly working on in Misa because it's confidential. But we are working on something there. And I thought, OK, those trees could tell stories about when those warehouses were full of people. That was where all of the goods came in from around the world. You can almost smell the spices and all of that was brought. And they represent the story. They grew through that history of where Misa was. Meena warehouses were so active and full of life. And they grow there volunteerly. They're standing on the edge of next to the curbs to nobody irrigated those trees. So they just know where there is where it's dripping from the roof. That's enough for those from J.C. Yeah, right? So all like a utility pipe. And then I said, we should replant them. And then the client said, nobody has done that before. And when people tell me nobody has done that before, I get super excited. I think, yes, that just makes me even more excited. Like not having an excrement pool. So now we are-- and then goes back to the start telling. Then you need to convince. Then you need to study. Then you need to figure out that actually the only time trees, wild growing trees are replanted in UAE. And then Abu Dhabi is when very old Gulf trees that grows naturally because it's a national tree. And you can't just move it all as a gift sometimes on sheet level. There has been gifts of very, very old trees. So I've seen that. I went to see like boxes that I like as big as this room we're sitting in. So there are, but it's not a thing. And now we want to do that. And I guarantee you there will be so many mistakes. Of course. The question that the mistakes from that exercise will lead to a whole new knowledge that we can replant. And it's the respect of the trees. And I just think that's the passion and the drive. But is it stubbornness? Yes. A characteristic of a good craftsman. Yes. Not giving up. Yeah. Just going-- Because try something. And try something, right? Be willing to try, right? When you build things in your home, is it spot on the first time I assume it's not? But there's this-- the reason why I like the story of your failure and then your research that led probably if you wouldn't have failed, you would not have been as successful as you are now. Because without that fail, you wouldn't go through that process of studying and learning that made you stronger now. And two things about that. One is that we here get used very often to people failing in living and never coming back. It's something that we have witnessed here. And we have also witnessed that the few that do what you did, which is saying, no, yes, I felt sorry. But I will stay here. I'm not going anywhere. And I will learn, and I will-- those people persevered and ended up having really strong roots in Abu Dhabi and in the UAE because of that perseverance. And I do that connection with craftsmanship because the great craftsman, you know, it doesn't matter in what craft or craftswoman, in what craft they worked, they are only good because they kept persevering. There's this thing of, you know, I want to do this better. I want to-- now, if we put that in 2024, where we have AI and computers and all that stuff, where how can we motivate younger designers to be stubborn and to when kind of that is not being valid anymore, it's almost like how it didn't work out to something else. Do you face that with the young people that you need to teach and train? I do. I face it with my own kids. I mean, I did. We built-- they built their own house in our garden when there were kids, and they can still create something. But it's also me who's been, you know, I'm not building as much as I wanted to. But so I think-- I think we should encourage people to build more. But I would also say that I see something now where things is happening. So let me give you an example. Last time I was here to see you, we had an amazing meeting together in a presentation. And in between the meeting I had to go to my client, because I have a client where I would like to introduce a new product that is called Date Creed. And it's the biggest problem here is in-- well, globally is in concrete-- in the concrete is cement. UAE produces a lot of cement. They produce it themselves. It's energy-consuming, and it's not good for the environment. And there are all of these things that project that we worked on. There's Veil, who did an amazing-- he won the Golden Lion for the Biennale. But those guys, they are doing another type of binder. And then they are used-- there are endless of date seats available out there. It's not a problem. So we-- I met with them. And she's a designer, and you know why I met her because she was voluntarily participating in a carpenter's boot course that she was doing in Lisa. So I met her out there because she, as a young woman, would like to-- she's doing tiles, but because she's adding that organic material into it and understanding, she went and wanted to learn about craftsmanship. I just think it's the best example, and it's the coolest couple. So I see a lot of crappy things, but I really also see some cool things. I really see some. No, and I think in the last couple of years, I've seen a revival of people wanting to be bakers or-- Yeah, it's a great example. Bakers used to be like the crappiest, and yeah, you-- again, you've been in my house next to it. It is a very famous baker who started baking bread at Noma. So yeah, suddenly baker became the hottest potato in town. It's really like-- I mean, it's an excellent example of handcraftship and back to the roots. And that connects also to a really cool example, which is that has been blowing my mind about Copenhagen, which is-- so as you know, and you have been collaborating, we are in this infinite search for a Marathi identity. Yeah. Both of us work daily with the subject of a Marathi culture and identity in the different projects. And I think every single design and architect working in the UAE cares about that and wants to do it properly. And in that research about national identity, it was a shock to me to learn that the food culture in Copenhagen in Denmark, that now it's considered for many years, probably the capital of food in the world. And Noma, you just mentioned, Noma bakery, some of us were at the Noma burger recently. But it's recent. It's not something that exists for hundreds of years. So that identity was created because, correct me if I'm wrong, crafts people in food took their job really seriously, and they were stubborn in creating that identity. And they persevered, and they were excellent, and they were not mediocre, and they kept doing, kept doing. And today, we call Copenhagen the capital of food. But I love the example of it, and then you're chasing the Emirati identity. You're not chasing it. I think I don't want to-- I gave you too much credit here, but you are kind of also developing a bit my friend, the Emirati identity, because you're working so closely with the leadership. So I think you actually have a bigger role. But enough about you, but I think you are, or sledge, certainly, but back to that food, we also discussed that when we worked in the thing project that where we collaborated. And the thing that the food culture in Denmark represents is exactly what you're chasing or developing or exploring here. It's the same. It was our own culture. We lost our own culture. We learned how to cook by going to the French academies and learn how to do the sauce with a lot of finding. sauce with a lot of butter and how they, they, they, they, there's this famous cookbook, you know, that everyone follows, there's the new and the old and the new era of, of the France cuisine, there's the Italian cuisine, that was the other one that we had, and now of course, we have all of the exotic kitchens, but back in the day, we don't have, we didn't have that, we had maybe Chinese foods somewhere, but other than that, it was France and Italian. And then, through that investigation of our own culture, our own identity, the movement started. So yeah, it came from taking your own thing serious, but it didn't start with just, it didn't start in the kitchen, it started in nature, it actually started by, because everything about kitchens is about the ingredients you can get. Here in UAE, I learned there, there's for instance, a dish that is, when there, when there were videoins and the travel around, you had dry fish, and then you took the, the fresh leaves from the gaff trees, and I added a bit of oil. I've never tasted it, I would love to, my dream is actually to make a restaurant here. There is a little bit of it in the earth, but I think we should do like a restaurant with old emerati recipes. You need to prove it. Yeah, okay. But so, so that, let's, let's start that, because I think, and, but, but that dish represents culture. That represents, that dish only happened because they couldn't have fresh fish, because they were not living by the sea. They had somebody who lived there, but they were traveling to the desert. So what can you get? You can find the tree that rolls voluntarily out there, use the leaves for that. You can bring your oil and you drive. I mean, so food is really representing of the nature and the culture. And we did the same and then we started to harvest, you know, the salty leaves that rose around the sea, the shoreline, and you use those for for salads and stuff. We used to use Danish apples and refine that. We took all of that ingredients and it became, but, but it started with that nature, that culture. And then we brought it into the kitchen and then it became a movement. And now there's books, now the young ones are doing that. And I think we should actually, by the way, we should, we have to do that right because I really love to do that because I hear so many stories about dishes here that I, and I mean, there are some, but it's a lot of Lebanese cuisine and a lot, but those traditions. There are all ones would be. And we can, we can see that we are recording this in one of the most beautiful buildings in the country. And the people that lead this project, they have been doing a big effort with Earth and Earth restaurant. And, you know, there's definitely a lot of effort put into that. And it's, what for me is so beautiful about working here and being here. And I'm probably the oldest in the room. I'm older than you. Slightly. Just very slightly. Only slightly. Very slightly. But after 51 years, living in many places, the fact that we are in a beautiful moment in this nation and in this city, where we can have this conversation of starting a restaurant and getting excited because it's still, we still have an opportunity to create something. You know, it's the feeling that I have is that there's not a lot of places where you can go and build something with its own identity. So it's not bringing a franchising and starting, but this idea. And I think we are doing that with the design that we do. You are doing that with the nature design that you do because you are not copying Danish nature to here. You are studying it. And all of this is, in my opinion, and I think you agree, it's a unique thing in the whole world that we can still create something unique with a local identity in this. It's very different here. It's here alone is something where you sit and do an eat on a blanket. Denmark, you play soccer on it here. The parks are predominant. They use after sunset. Here, I mean, it's just completely different how things are also culturally working here. But I would like to talk about why it's possible because without trying to say anything bad about either my society or society, it's different. I live in a welfare society, a high degree of democracy and a complete different system, also a different text rate. Other things are very different from being in Abu Dhabi. And that system is based on care. But that also leads to people thinking that there's no care here. And that's completely different. There's actually more care, I would say, here. And it's just a different system of taking care. And we can open up an even longer debate about what's right and wrong and is the society fair enough. But I don't want to dwell with that. There are different society systems. But here, things change so rapidly. And it's changing with the desire to make it more livable. It's changing the, I mean, again, the parks, we have designed 100 parks. They are public. They are full of biodiversity. There's no fees. It's literally everybody. It's the population you rare see in the parks is actually in Raju people. It's all kind of other nationalities that just are getting taken care of by providing these parks. Here you can really change things rapidly. And again, it's about the trust, but I just did the lecture that you talked about. And I mentioned the book again, because we really want to publish that book. And there was a heinous representative there. And he said, OK, let me fix it for you. And it's not like here that you just get, OK, I would like that. And then they give it to you. That's not what I'm saying. It's that's what it is. But if you work with the right values, and if there's a purpose, you can actually accomplish it way faster than in my country, we need to debate a lot. We need to go through a lot of procurement system. And sometimes we actually lose the end goal because of our energy to get there. There's that lately, I've been changing the word of fast and pace that is where we use a lot to talk here to intensity, because I think what what is very different in working here. And I love it because that's also part of the way we work at slash is we work with a lot of intensity. So obviously if you increase the intensity, you get more because you work with more intensity. I don't think it's faster, slower, better, worse than anywhere else. But I think it's the identity of the way we work. And then going back again to force the conversation on craftsmanship, I think that, you know, it's a conversation I have with some of the team members when we talk about the time and know I need more time. And there's a perception of that a good craft is directly associated with the amount of time that you have to do it, which yes, you need time to do your craft. But what time? What is the period of time? And I think that one of the things that I love about you here and about Abu Dhabi is that the why is asked a lot? So why do you take that time? Why? So it's because it's written, it's because it was or it's just because people are used to take that time, but maybe we can do it faster and more efficiently using less resources. And by the way, the whole discussion of sustainability is super interesting. For a lot of reasons, but especially some associated with the way that I see you looking at sustainability, because being you a nature person, you are not a lunatic, like you are very pragmatic in the way that you look at sustainability. You don't say the words that everybody expects you to say, you don't act like you are looking for sustainability and everything you do. But in a really pragmatic way, we did some of the parks are actually without concrete. We couldn't get it but the fact that we managed to get compacted gravel, it sounds simple, into the parks for the municipality as a test. And now it's implemented in all of the hundred parks. Imagine that change, that's a physical change because people don't like the dust and all of that. But we found a new binder, it's something that came from Oman. I think that's a hand on proof that you can do something with less concrete. So yeah, I am really into the physical change to see that rapidly and that happens here. And I think it's just. I just want to go back to the fact how exciting it is here that what excites me of being here is that you can talk about opening a restaurant with local recipes. Well, it's already done in Denmark, but if it wasn't, it would be whatever conversation. Here, if you find the right people and they see the value, it's going to happen. If you get someone excited and the same goes for when we did the parks, you say pace and time and the why. Of course, maybe one of the things that is not happening here is somebody asking me if I can do it a bit slower, so it seems like there's a perception of speed, but something about pace is also seen as a value, because they are so passionate about development change. But I think what it brought in my firm, I just talked about it in the lecture that when we did six parks, that was our first task. I had to sit down with all of my designers, we have this very flat structure, so they requested a meeting with me as the design principle and that it was probably not possible for us with that limited amount of time to the science six park at the same time to ensure our DNA was embedded, that the creative freedom was represented, that they could go through enough of these iterations and debates and discussions, and then I was like, let's try. That sounds like something we can't do, yes, I've been motivated to try it, right? And it was tough, but what came out of it was six parks that are very individual, and they are even limited down to the fact that we at the same time, because they are also constructed much faster within procurement rules, within everything that you need to go through here, in the same manner as in Back in Denmark, they are constructed with a fixed set of objects. So we can do 100 different types of pavement, we only have four different types of pavements. It's like a set of Lego bucks, but you don't have all of the shapes, all of the colors, you maybe only have 10, and you would imagine if you had 1,000 Lego blocks, you would do the most creative, but if I gave all of you 1,000 Lego blocks, it would take you a year to do something, but if you were limited to 10 Lego blocks and you had 10 minutes, you would all come up with a much faster, much more exciting thing, and that's what happened with the parks, and then afterwards we moved to 30 parks at the same time, there is of course the repetition of the materials, but that design process never happened anywhere else in here, and you know what? That is a learning that we now bring to Toronto, to Denmark, I mean, that's what happens. Isn't that a characteristic on its own of craftsmen work, in the sense that when you are looking at a piece of wood, you don't have millions of pieces of wood, no, so the limitation of what you have in front of you, the fact that you have to use the species of your country or the tools that you have available. That makes it more like the food, yeah, thank you, of course you know that because you are a super clever man, but yeah, the food culture in Denmark reads the highest level of creativity when we limited the availability, when we said no, you cannot use Italian ingredients, no, you cannot take learnings from French, you are, and people are like down to okay, we have nothing like here, sometimes they also like, but we have nothing, no, you have the most rich culture, it's the perfect example, that the limitations in the Danish cuisine movement came from a limit, that the creativity started with a limitation. I think design overall and here we could be talking about branding or we could be talking about space design or nature design. I have the feeling after 30 years of slush that and I tried to instill that in my team, that restrictions, limitations are in our favor, time, budget, they are in our favor because that's when we get the best out of us because we will make the best out of those resources that we have. And you have a set of values as well as we have, you have values that are, it's not rules, I would say values, right, you ask yourself the why all the time when you do your graphic design, that's why it's very clean and crisp and we ask ourselves why all the time as well, why is it there, and so I think it's that, it's a curiosity, but it's also the rules, why is it called slush? I actually don't know. So the slush in Portugal, before we moved here, our logo was a slush, so it was not- Ah, no, I remember, yeah, that's why you have, so it's a backslash of- So it's, you know, in my attempt to justify everything to the clients, it was the idea of us slush the client, so this idea of collaboration, so when you say slush, if you say, if you are listening to someone and they say the word slush immediately, you know there's something coming after, yeah, so you say slush, something, yeah, so it's this idea that every time there's a slush, there's something before the slush and something after the slush. And the idea was this, the idea that we need others to do good design, so the idea that we need collaboration, mostly with the clients or the purpose of the idea was because of the client, because we do think that the client should be more involved in the projects, and by the way, that's another problem, because most designers don't like to get the client involved in the project. But what we found out is that no one wants a better project than the client. So it's their project, so ultimately they are going to be the beneficiaries of our work, but I fought over all these years a lot with designers that think that let's exclude the client from the project, and in the end we meet them just here, last week, we were forced to give a halfway status to a client on a branding project. The client requested, can I see where you are? And usually the designers like, you know, like, no, no, we can see, he's working progress. And suddenly we shared the work in progress, and the feedback was so good in terms of criticism. It was valuable. It was so valuable that for sure now the project is going to be way better because we got that involvement. But I think that was the reason of the slash, was this idea that I honestly believe in. I might be stubborn and want to do things my way, but I want to listen and then make my judgment on them. Your way is your way to actually get the best feedback, that's at least my understanding of it, one that has worked a lot with slash, I think that's your value, that you want to ensure that it works, and that's my engaging with the clients, which is something I also learned from working with you, but also in this country, and especially this city, I would say, it's maybe a little bit an Abu Dhabi thing to really have this care, close, not trying to offend anyone else out there of my lovely clients, but there is just a closer collaboration with clients. I think there's a lot of ownership. There's a lot of ownership, and people have opinion because they have ownership. And I wish we did that more, I mean, again, we have a structure that is pretty flat, but I am still the design principle in this way, and because I have an often a role of being a trusted advisor towards the client, I people ask me, so why are you getting all of these projects? How can you bring them home? How can it be? Well, that's because my biggest dream is to work on the project, and the client immediately sees that, because the only thing that client care about is not me. It's the project. And I think the projects are super exciting. Some projects are not so, I try to not do them, but basically it is actually about that project. And I have it internally, also sometimes we are also trying to become better at doing that internally, because it is a bit of a thing being a designer you want things to be perfect, so they don't want to open anyone in before the painting is completely done, let's take a painting. But it's like, no, I would actually like to see before you made the composition of the painting. And it's not that I want to go in with my red marker, I would just like to have a discussion with you on the why. And if you could even have that discussion with the client, it's even better. It is. And I think that's, I don't know if the two of us are at the top. agreeing on this because we're older than everyone else. And maybe it's an age thing that we'll learn. We don't feel threatened by criticism and, you know-- No, but there's a thing that-- I know that I have a different role, and I understand how it was. And when I was a designer, I'm still a designer. But when I was getting reviews internally in this LA, I admittedly sometimes hated it. But I eventually became one that gave reviews by understanding the purpose of them, not working against them, actually asked questions back. Debating-- at that time, I've been in three studios, and the last one is SLA, and both of them I actually developed a very, very close relationship with the founder of that firm. And that was by debating understanding, because I thought it was interesting to get feedback. I thought that was relevant. I wanted to learn something. And I think what people then don't understand is what I sometimes need to be better to explain is, people don't understand how much feedback I'm getting now. I mean, that's the other thing here. Because people care, as you said in Abu Dhabi, I'm getting one-to-one-to-rate feedback like every day. I'm getting, this is right, this is wrong. Why didn't you do that? Why, why, why, why? And it makes the project better. That's different. And it's one of the reasons why-- It's not dangerous. It's not. And one of the reasons why we started doing these talks, these chats, it's because a lot of times designers and your team and my team are protected from the exterior. A lot of the studios live in a bubble where you, the principal, goes outside, meets everybody, listens everything. And then has the role of bringing the message. And a lot of times, it feels like it's your message, or my message, that you're bringing. And it's not. One of the things that I don't like-- and I don't think my team does honestly, I think we're beyond that point-- is when a designer refers to ease or her's work as my work. Yeah. Because it's not Bernardo's work. It's the client's work. So it's this idea that that's why we don't have portfolio online, and we don't have slash. And we don't have behands and so on. It's because it's not my work. It's someone paid me to do something for them. So the moment that I'm working for them, and the moment that the designer sends the perspective and realizes that we are here doing what we're doing because someone needs us. And we are delivering something to them. Then the perspective changes a little bit from me, the artist, you know, but to someone that is contributing to someone's life here. I agree. But it's also because we are not artists. Great. We are. I repeat that a lot. OK. But we are not. I'm not asked to do an alien object that should be placed after my own vision and thinking. It's never that. I only get work to SLA, or we at SLA, only get work when a client has a need and a problem. A technique that the technician needs to solve. So that's how it starts. So it's-- and it's the same way you often explain. I asked you yesterday, it was about a new project you got. And you say, how come you got that? And then you said, well, that's because there is this problem. Where a lot of these entities doesn't work in this way, they need to-- and was like, OK. So you didn't tell me about, oh, I want to start with this super cool. And I want to work with this material. No, we were having a conversation about a problem. And then starts a journey about how to solve that problem. And I think it has to do just also to-- But it's a way of thinking. But I think it's also a positioning of the studio. Because I do understand, we are not a famous studio or a famous name in the sense that people don't call you. Yeah, but people don't come and say, I want your style, or without mentioning names, if we think, for example, about star architects. A lot of people that go to a star architect-- It's for a special style. They were expecting that, so I do understand that. In those cases, you have to push your identity, because the client expects that. They're expecting to pay for that. We are not in that positioning. Our positioning is completely different. I repeat this for the last 30 years. And some of my designers don't like me when I say this. But I say, we are technicians. We're not artists. If you want to do a sculpture in your free time, sure. Then you are an artist. Good for you. Someone will pay. And they say, I like, or I don't like your sculpture. So if I like it, I buy it. If I don't like it, I don't buy it. In our case, it can't-- Well, often the guys-- sorry to interrupt. Often, the people who do-- there's a lot of sculptures that don't get bought, could somehow also be called an amateur. And I'm not trying again to-- Right. It's totally clear. Because that's the other thing that-- I mean, I own a commercial company. I only justify the salaries and everything we do in our firm by a request from a client. Nothing else feeds us. Nothing else supports us. There's no other thing than clients that justify us having a studio going in their solve the problems. We do it within a set of values. We do it within with energy and trust and something that-- so of course, clients request us to solve something because they understand the way we probably will solve that. As in the same manner as people request slash to solve something, I now-- because I've worked a lot with you-- have an idea of what would come out of it, not how it looks. But I can't wait for the process of how exciting it would be and how you will help me make those decisions. So I think that's really fundamental to something we cannot talk enough about. That the change is true, client. Sometimes the client is a government. Sometimes it's a private developer. Sometimes it's-- we did a colleague for students and the students were the-- I mean, but it's always a client. It is just a rapper because I have no idea how long we-- No, I also really need to pee, so-- [LAUGHTER] So we are rapping, but I would wrap up with the subject of the season, if you want, in the sense that I have more and more the feeling that the same way that people now want to bake their breads. And I have the feeling that I would like to be-- that slash would be a ripple collective, would be part of this revival in the pride of being a craftsman and a craftswoman and calling a graphic designer or a strategist or a content creator. I'm a craftsman. When I'm crafting my words, I'm doing with the pride of a craftsman. And that is something I really would like. I don't think it's a generational thing. I don't think it's a question of the old people. I think it's really reframing crafts into the current time. I don't want to do crafts the same way that crafts were doing 50 years ago. We have new tools. We have new ways of doing it. So just yesterday, Apple launched the new AI system on your phone. So now it's available. So why not use it? But there's a big difference between using it for laziness and using it for just getting the job done or using it to be a better crafts person. And that's something that I really, really would like to continue talking about how can we revive that. I think I was hoping to end on saying something very cool about SLA. But I'm going to say something about SLA instead. Because I think that we are sitting in your office. But we are also sitting in the middle of a very big event where I just did a master class in the wet conference about early childhood. And that's facilitated by someone. But there's a lot of your design in it. And what you did in this conference and what you did with the projects where we collaborate, is that you are actually crafting the communication in a physical manner. When you walk around in that exhibition, you can feel that design identity. And even more when it's only us who collaborate, we can even have even more fun. Of course, it was a client and really controlled. But I've never worked with someone and you are a designer. And I am the architect, landscape architect, but you are really representing things very physically. You have a textural identity, the box that you showed me in London is in this very studio. I learned that. the words. It's here everywhere. It's in that trace that is placed on the table where are my glasses. So you do that. And I think you need to continue that because that's the only way. And again, yeah, there's a new AI system. We always get asked can you wear these glasses and you can do movies and we do use AI, we do use 3D technology. But there's just nothing like having those meetings that you and I are having where it is. I mean, last time we discussed that I can see the movement you and I have been through with those ones is that the screen became smaller and smaller. It's very, very strange that normally in these presentations, the screen gets bigger and bigger and more more digital and actually the project that you and I are working on, confidentially, the last decision we made for the next meeting with the client is there's no screen, that we are taking a completely analog. So at least we would like the future. Good like AI with that. So Rasmus, thank you for coming and stopping by. It's always a pleasure. And we'll continue this conversations in a lounge somewhere, feeding our miles in our pleasant emptier. You had to put that out there. I had to finish that. Thank you. Thank you.