5 Lessons in Negotiation from an FBI Hostage Negotiator

I'll start with this. Chris, I don't know if you can see this, but I'm riding down today's date because today is the day that I become a better negotiator. You're a master negotiator, former FBI negotiator for 20 plus years. Now you've been consulting, teaching the art of negotiation to business people and anybody who needs negotiation. And the funny thing about negotiation is it's the skill we all need that I feel like I personally never got taught. I never, it's all self-taught. Anything you learn, and one of the things I realized was so often I was negotiating and I didn't even realize it, whether it was with an investor or with an employee or a customer, life is full of negotiations. I'm excited because I think this is going to be quite useful. So maybe my starting point is this, if today was the day I'm getting better at negotiation, where do I start? Yeah, well, first thing is let the other side go first. And then as a dums, actually listening is a challenge because when the other person is talking this time, if you want to jump in, it's almost impossible to resist. It's basically if there were five, six steps to becoming a better listener, the real challenge comes at step two. It's a hijack point. If you're listening at all, as opposed to completely focusing on your internal dialogue or you're waiting to speak, most people get past that stage. But if you're listening at all, you're listening to rebut. His way wrong. The urge to correct is irresistible. I mean, like it's insanely impossible to overcome. So you'll jump in there to hijack the conversation to correct. The urge to correct is so irresistible that we actually use it as one of our negotiation skills. I'll say something wrong on purpose because you will not be able to resist the urge to correct me with the truth. And it's a great way for me to trigger getting hidden information out of you. They won't regret giving me because you won't. The old saying, we don't remember what we said, remember how we felt in the moment. Dears to correct is so satisfying that you'll never regret telling me something you shouldn't have told me because it felt so good in a moment. So that's the power of this hijack moment, hijack to correct. Now, the other thing that you'll do frequently is hijack to relate. And it's called story stealing and you won't mean to do it. But the other person will say something that triggers this incredible memory in you of a past experience, something that happened to you. It's one of the file sees of common ground. And you'll completely be unable to resist that urge to jump in to tell me your story. Oh my god, the same thing happened to me. And you'll feel incredibly good in that moment. Not realizing how squashed I feel. And it's one of the reasons why people refer to it as story stealing. Because it feels so good to you. You can't imagine that what I feel is like, how you had a better story than me. You had to one up me. Get it better than me. And you can't imagine that that's the case because the memory triggered in you was so good. So actually listening through that hijack moment is one of the big challenge, probably the single biggest challenge of becoming a better negotiator because you got to listen to somebody all the way through. And then and here's how powerful it is to make somebody feel heard. Because just because you've been heard, doesn't mean you feel heard. Just because I do understand, doesn't mean that you feel understood. So I'm not a wedding couple weeks ago on Ironman. And it's my first substantive conversation with the bride. The night of the after the wedding ceremony. And as you could imagine, she's unconscious on her feet. She's making the rounds through the wedding reception dinner. She's obligated to speak to everybody because that's what bride's got to do. It's a bride and groom. But supposed to walk around, say hello to everybody, make them feel happy that they were there and thank them for showing up. And all I'm doing when I'm talking to her, my first real conversation with her is telling her what she went through that day. I'm telling her what she went through. I said, you know, this is this is probably it's probably easier to run a small country in South America than it was to fall off this wedding. And you know, you're here to celebrate the union of two families. And your your husband is here because he's got to be, you know. So I'm laying all this out tour of of what she's going through showing her completely that I understood everything that she went through leading up to that point. She runs into me the next night at dinner and she walks up to me and she gives me this big hug. And she says, I have no memory of what you said to me last night. I just remember how good it made me feel. And that's the power of making somebody feel understood. She literally couldn't remember work. But she felt bonded to me because I thoroughly understood her. That's the challenge of making and the mission and the goal of making somebody feel completely heard and understood. You have no any no idea how many times I wanted to interrupt during that story. And I just knew this if I'm ever going to do it, this is the one time I need to just listen the way you're describing. And also like you the urge congratulations on resistant at urge. Because in the moment you had like, I want to speak. That mean good job. That urge is huge. I have trouble resistant at sometimes. And so you're saying that the starting point is the skill of truly listening, not waiting for your turn to talk, not trying to hijack. Not you to do what you call the fallacy of common ground where I think I'm building this bridge with you. And you're like, dude, you just sideswiped what I was trying to tell you. And you're you want to tell me about you when I was trying to tell you how I'm feeling or what I'm going through or what what's happening in my life. And so those techniques are not even I mean negotiation is just one small part of that. That just seems like how to win friends and influence people. That seems like really, you know, it should be relationship, you know, the foundation of any kind of communication of relationships. So is it that negotiation fundamentally is just connecting with other people? Is it that or is it that these skills applied to other domains? I mean, what's the right way to think about that? Well, yeah, it's across the board. I mean, and first of all, negotiation, if your objective is to have a long term relationship of trust, where we both prosper. Now, if you complete social path, that should be your objective because it's low maintenance, it's at least the amount of effort and it's the maximum amount of money. I'm going to make, you know, I get a number of people. I get one of our top level coaching clients said, I have made so much more money being collaborative than I ever made being cutthroat. Your relationships, you make deals faster, your relationships flow more smoothly. That should be your goal. Like you, if you're the most mercenary person in the world, then the only thing you care about is making money. Then that's the fastest easiest way to make the money. But not that's not everybody's definition. Most people think of it as win-lose, you know, battle of arguments. I'm going to get the upper hand on you. I'm going to have you over barrel. I'm going to force you to do what I want, you know, the people of power negotiations, if you will. That puts you out of business. You lose your friends, you lose climbers, you lose college. All right, let's take a quick break because we got something for you. You know, we pinned a survey to one of our videos and we asked, what's the biggest challenge you have right now in your business? And the number one thing that you guys said was getting your first 100 customers. That was the most popular response. And it's, of course, that's the challenge because if you can't get to 100 customers, you're definitely not going to get to 1000. So what the team at HubSpot did was they went through all the old episodes and they heard the stories where I talked about how I got customers for my first business, how Sam did it for his first business, and some of the guests that came on and talked about what they did, how they scrapped and clawed and got those initial 100 customers to get the ball rolling. And then they put those together in a report. It's a PDF, it's totally free and you can get it and it will give you some inspiration and some ideas around how you might be able to go get your first 100 customers. Check it out. It's in the description below. So what is the right way to think about negotiating? Because in my mind, you know, my simple to brain, if I imagine to put a great negotiator, if you said think about the best negotiator, I think of somebody who's either very powerful, maybe even intimidating, or they're just very charismatic, they're able to sort of manipulate when the other side over. And I definitely default to a win-lose dynamic. I'm trying to get as much as I can and they're trying to get as much as they can. And let's see who wins this negotiation. Whether I'm buying a car, I'm going and getting a Nintendo off of Craigslist, or whatever it is. That's the default for me. And so how did you do relationships if you're, I mean, maybe this just doesn't apply, but if you your hostage negotiator. I mean, are you trying to have a relationship with these people that somebody you've never known and they're clearly, you know, off their rocker if they're taking hostage, using a hostage situation? - Let's not put them in the off the rocker category. Let's make that simpler to start with. - Okay, let's say, it's not the first person I would think of when I say I want a long-term relationship with this person. And so can you tell me a story about maybe, I don't know, your first high stakes hostage negotiation and how you approached it? And I guess what the mindset is there? - Well, I learned three things I suppose. To start with, I learned the application of empathy from a crisis hotline. And what we now refer to as tactical empathy, but just demonstrating understanding, not understanding, but demonstrating understanding in a way that the other side feels heard and draws them into telling you more, removes you as a threat. First moving a negotiation is to remove yourself as a threat 'cause why would they make a great deal with you if you're a threat? Why would they make a deal with you if you're a threat? But they're not gonna make a great deal with you. So one of the first really counter-intuitive moves is to move yourself as a threat. And hostage negotiator does that with a non-threatening voice, calming, soothing, late night FM DJ voice. And expressing genuine concern for the bad guy. Like I'm here to get everybody out. That includes you, Mr. Bad guy. Now, whether or not you let me get you out, is gonna be up to you. But that's my objective, first of all. And I need to find out whether or not you're good with that. Some bad guys wanna die. I need to know that right away. And here's the counter, crazy counter-intuitive thing when you talk about relationships. Hostage negotiators have repeat customers. So I might not see you again, but if I get you out alive, another negotiator's going to, which means if I lied to you, if I deceived you, if I didn't take the time to understand you, that's gonna be your experience when you run across the next guy. And things are probably gonna go bad. So in point of fact, the whole idea of a long-term relationship, I gotta be willing to step in to be open with that. And you're gonna be, bad guys gonna be able to smell that. - What was your first big case, first big situation where you had to deal with a hostage situation and you came out with a successful outcome? - It was a very rare event that I was lucky enough to get involved in a bank robbery with hostages where we trapped them inside with the hostages. - And so what happened, you get the call that this is going down? And I mean, just tell me what was that like? Tell me, tell me about it. - So when you get the call, we became aware of it and we just went, which is a really, a philosophy that I live by, which is called run the trouble. And it's amazingly liberating if your philosophy is run the trouble. (laughing) And so we ran the trouble. We showed up, since it's a bank, FBI and NYPD are showing up. The negotiation teams from both sides knew each other really well, we had a great relationship. We had a bank robbery task force in New York at the time. So the PD and the bureau are already aligned on the criminal prosecution. So the two negotiations teams blended. And the first hostage to go share on a phone was a PD detective. I was his coach. The PD commander was in charge of the negotiation operation center on the inside. The bureau's lead negotiator or coordinator at the time went to the outside in the event in a voice to voice bullhorn stuff was needed. We negotiated for a number of hours. The commander decided to sort of disrupt the dynamic a little bit. It was stalemated at a very low threat level. And so we pulled the PD and the negotiator and he put me on a phone with the bad guys. And I had one of the bank robbers out about 90 minutes later. - What'd you start with when you got on the phone? - We went disruptive to start with, which was not the usual protocol. The commander sensed humagallant, great instincts, great instincts. He listened long enough to realize that the secret to gaining the upper hand and the conversation was gonna be how each conversation closed. Bad guy was constantly saying, hey, I gotta go. They're coming, they're gonna hear me. Or I gotta, I gotta put you on hold or I'll put you on speaker and then he just get off the phone. So he said no matter what happens, you extend every call, you end every call. He tries to get off the phone, I don't care what you gotta do. You keep one of phone five, seven, 10 seconds longer than you and the call. We're gonna take control of this, but take control of the end. And the other thing we normally, the normal handoff is hang up, hang up, phone up to the next negotiator and the next negotiator does an elaborate summary of everything's been set up to now. Because what you anticipate is a bad guy saying like, sorry, Chris, who's his, Chris guy? Does he even know what the hell's going on? - Right. - And so normally, Chris gonna say, hey, I've been sitting here for a long time and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I'm up to speed, you don't have to, why do you hand it off at all? It could be for a variety of reasons. Normally it's to take a harder line. Okay. No negotiation team, whether it's business or hostage, hands a negotiator off to another negotiator to be nicer. Like ever, business or hostage. If there's a change in negotiators on the other side, it is always to take a harder line, always. And why is it better to hand it off to somebody else who'll take the harder line versus you yourself escalating to a harder stance? It's gonna catch the other side off, go at a little. It's destabilizing without necessarily being threatening right away. And if I've been a pushover up to now and suddenly I'm demanding you have reason to believe I've been inauthentic. You know, which guy is the real you? The other guy or this guy? Right. So there's an authenticity issue involved. And so how did you get him out? You said 90 minutes later, you got hostages out. What resolved it or what was the breakthrough point, the inflection point for that one? Well, I threw the first guy was highly manipulative negotiator. And hindsight I now refer to him as the great corporate CEO negotiator. Great corporate CEO, if you're a negotiator, it would be like, oh my God, my board's gonna fire me if I make a bad deal. I mean, my board is gonna kill me if I agree to that. Blameing people that are not in the room so that that guy doesn't get cornered. diminishing his influence at the table because if he does that, that's to do this calling all the shots. He's just smart enough to not get cornered at the table. It's always gonna blame somebody outside the room. So the first bank robbery chase was telling us how dangerous his colleagues were. And he kept saying like, you know, these guys are crazy. Like, you know, I'm scared of them. When he was calling all the shots. So I took a harder line with him. I was taking away his comfort level and being more confrontational without being aggressive. He gets rattled. And while he's trying to figure out what to do, hands the phone off to the other bank robber on the inside. Who does not like how this is going down. It was not part of his plan to be stuck in a bank surrounded by snipers with 50 caliber guns that might, you know, put a gaping hole in his forehead, which he would no longer could wear his favorite hat if that happened. Like, he scared a death about getting out of there. And so I started in with them and I've still got the late night FM DJ voice, which is calming and soothing them. And then the real critical issues were somebody else on the team heard what was really bothering him. And they handed me a note. And I listened and I adjusted my stance in a moment on the note and he felt so heard and understood that I'm very short-owed or I was meeting him out in front of the bank he was surrendering to me. - Wow, what was on the net? - We were pressuring him to let a hostage go. They had three hostages on the inside. Shocking that the hostage negotiators would be trying to let the bad guy, get the bad guys to let a hostage go. And the note to me said, ask him if he wants to come out. And in a blink of an eye, I switched from asking him about the hostages and letting one go to saying, do you want to come out? and his response. the three was, I don't know how I do it. Which is a great big giant, yes. Just tell me how, give me outta here. How I want out. (laughing) And when we had him on that thread, then I completely focused on the consequences that he was looking at, how he was gonna get out of there. He was most concerned about what was gonna happen to him in the instant he stepped out the door. And as soon as I got enough reassurance, I almost had this guy out. And then I got another note as it turned out from the same negotiator. And the note said, tell him you meet him outside. And I said, you wanna just meet me out front? And he says, yeah, I'm ready to end this shit. And so he scrambled, I went around, I got on a bullhorn on the outside, I'm about about to run out the bike. (upbeat music) Listen up, the old playbook is slowing you down. 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To make them aware that there's information they need that they can only get at the table. I remember a long time ago, somebody wrote a book. I don't know if they call it a 10 Commandments in the negotiation. I don't remember what it was called. But I remember taking a look at it and one of the commandments was, and which is I completely disagree with, by the way. It is what it is, which is your experience, you are not new, start your first rodeo, you dealt with these people before. It is what it is. So I'll ask these CEOs, when are you ever in a negotiation where you don't have closely held information, you don't want to reveal to the other side, whether it's your budget, whether it's your pressures, deadlines on other deals, quarterly profits, demands from your board. When is there ever a negotiation where you don't have proprietary information that if the other side had it, it would change everything. - Right. - You always have. - Yeah, like all the time. And I go, I go, okay, so that means the other side's got that too. Which means it isn't what it is. And the other side will tell you, if they could trust you not to hurt them with it. So your first negotiation is trust. 'Cause they got stuff if they could tell you, it would change everything. And that gets people out of the perspectives. I gotta make my case. Or I gotta eat, what's my leverage, what's their leverage? What are our giveaways? What are our, what are our, a lot of executives say, what are our must-haves and what are our giveaways? Well, if they've got proprietary information that would change everything, then your must-haves and your giveaways could be completely wrong. - Right. - And then, so you've got imperfect information. And what you wanna do is you wanna sit down and gather information. And trust. And then rethink what the best deal looks like. And it's really hard to get experienced executives to do that because, you know, I know the layout landscape does not my first row to go, I've seen this before. Getting them out of this is something I've seen before was a really hard thing. - Right. Okay, so that's great. So I'm an executive in that room. And I hear you and I say, okay, first of all, even though I've been through a lot of negotiations, there's more to learn. So I'm open-minded to this. Secondly, I buy what you're saying, which is that if I had more perfect information, we can make a better deal that might be mutually beneficial if we were willing to trust each other. What are the simple ways to build that trust when you do meet with the other side? And they're naturally, initially, gonna not just be super willing to trust you. What are the simple ways to build trust? - Well, the simplest way to build trust and gather information simultaneously. Is nothing anybody's ever learned. Okay, so basically what they're you're saying here is number one, I got to build trust number two, I got to get the information. So number one, build trust. - Coma ground. That's fine, now what we have in common. Did you play Little League Baseball growing up? Your kids, you know, you're made. - What are your kids doing? How many times have you been married? - You know, this whole common ground thing. Because they felt so good when they shared it, they didn't realize that they were squashing the other side. So that's one of the worst ways to build trust. And then gathering information, you taught together information, viscan good questions. Well, questioning somebody makes them feel cornered, which then diminishes trust. Because nobody trusts you if you corner them or interrogate them. So the counter to it of answer is the, you know, the hostage negotiator tried and true tool called the hostage negotiator was a motion label and business negotiator is just a label. And I can start triggering the information out of you right away if I sit down and I'll take a sense of you. And I said this to a colleague recently, I hadn't seen him months. I looked at him and said, "Hey, hi, how are you doing today? How can I help you?" And he had to have, not in sense of how questions. I looked at this guy and I just kind of soaked him in for about three seconds, maybe. It sounds short, but always feels like an eternity. And I said, "You seem centered." And he said that for a second, he said, "You know, I just came off the mountain and the mountain is where I go to meditate, and I work out." And he's into all this Asian, philosophies and martial arts, which makes him feel phenomenal. He said, "The last time you saw me, I hadn't been on the mountain once." And I was just wound really tight. And I just came off the mountain. I've been up there for about a month. Now if I'm listening, he just told me a lot about himself. And he also told me where he's at right now. If I just sit down and said, "Hey, Nick, how are you?" He looked at me and went, "Hey, I fine, you." - Right. Right. And you did it with a observation, a label, but it was almost a compliment to it. It wasn't like you said, "Oh, you seem stressed out where you get defensive." You said, "You seem centered." Is it important if it's a positive or negative label in that way? - It's just gotta be what it is. Like if he just seemed stressed, I just said, "You seem stressed." Or if he seems stressed, one I like when somebody seems stressed, is it's probably that day. And I'll say, "Tough day." And you can watch them get their balance back when you say that. And so the observation's gotta be, you have to observe what it is. Because if they look stressed and I go like, "You seem centered." Then I'm an idiot. (laughing) - Okay, so you put the label to give some information. That was what happens next. What's the next move to continue to build the trust? - Yeah, well, I'll probably, I may feed it back to him. I'm gonna sit back and, I'm gonna let the other person talk. And then I'm gonna see if they got a next step. And then it's a little bit like there's gonna be a little bit of a dance here. We may need to take a secuitous route to where we both need to be. But if you pick the route, we'll get there faster. By pick the route, you know, I don't know where you're going through. I don't know where the friction points are for you. I don't know what's gonna make you leery. I'm gonna let you pick the route 'cause it's gonna be faster. So I'm gonna sit back and wait to see if you pick a next step. I mean, try to trigger you to see if we can go. Is it ridiculous to talk about what we're here here for? So you caught that question, then, didn't you? - Yeah. - It was a no-oriented question. - Yeah. - Instead of, do you wanna talk about what we're here for? Which you're driving for, yes, 'cause going for yes creates friction. But going for an example, no creates protection and safety. - No, no, it wouldn't be ridiculous for us to do that. - There you go, exactly. Yeah. And so that's how I want to, when I want to maybe go some place, I'll trigger the decision via no versus yes. - And you know, there's all these words when it comes to negotiation, those sort of classic words, you know, compromise. - Tell me your thoughts on compromise. - Do you think the United States Congress is deserves an A-plush rating? - No. - But they compromise all the time, I think. So if you think politicians are awesome, then you think compromise is good. And it's a crazy thing about it because everybody preaches compromise. How do you feel about compromising your principles? - Not good. - Yeah, it gives you an instantaneous, uneasy feeling inside, right? So it's compromise is to, by definition, make something lose, lose. And that is not compatible with a long-term relationship of trust and prosperity. It's compatible with being a C-player, mediocrity. - Compromise is correlate very strongly to mediocrity. And you gotta decide whether or not you're good with mediocrity. - And so what's the replacement to compromise? 'Cause I don't think anybody goes in saying, I can't wait to compromise. They sort of feel like it's a necessary evil. I guess we'll have to compromise in order for us to agree. And I think that's where people land, settle for that. That's the mediocrity part. So what's the more effective, more powerful way of thinking besides expecting to and accepting, accepting that you need to compromise? - Well, let me find out where you're, let me make you feel heard first. If I can make you feel completely heard on your position, my guess is more than 30% of the deals we made in my favor on the spot. And about half of the deals are made on the spot. Once the other side feels completely heard. But let's say, let's say it's only 25%, and it's well more than that. All right, so now you've knocked out, you've just accomplished, you have to negotiate 25% less. 'Cause you just made the deal, by making the other person feel, or just not 20% of your work off the table. Now what happens to the remaining 75%. Their position's going to move closer to yours, and they're going to be more honest with you about what exactly that position is. They're gonna tell you what they perceive that it must have to be. They're gonna move away from their throwways right away. So I'm either gonna make the deal on the spot, or I'm gonna find out what we really have to negotiate about immediately, which is also gonna save me a massive amount of time. Now there's a difference between compromise and high value trades. And, you know, I'm not 100% sure whether or not this is a great example, but I like it. Steel is 2% carbon and 98% iron. So let's imagine that carbon and iron were two negotiating factors. And they said we gotta compromise and go 50/50. 'Cause we need a 50% representation here. Now, in point of fact, 2% of one person's idea, and 98% of the other person's idea, made a stronger ally that mankind had never seen before. So your real challenge is what's the blend, not the compromise, what's the blend? - You know, there was a guy who came on this podcast and he said something great. I don't know if this aligns with your philosophy. And he said, he told me something that really helped me in negotiating. He said, you know, most people in the go into negotiation, they see themselves on one side of the table and then the other person on the other side of the table and it's sort of me versus you. And I'm tugging this, I'm pulling this way and you're pulling that way. And he said, this is a guy who buys companies and he said the best thing we did was we realized that that's the wrong mental model. The right mental model is me and you are sitting on the same side of the table and across the table is the problem. Maybe the problem is you think the price is X and I think it maybe is Y. You know, there's some problem that's preventing us from just doing this deal instantaneously, but it's not me versus you. It's us together jointly looking at this problem on the other side of the table. And that was a very effective visual metaphor for me. Is that something you would, I don't know, agree with? Is that something you would, you probably know more about the than I do. - No, I agree completely. I mean, for the longest time on my side, we've always said the adversary is a situation and what you just did was explain what that model looks like through that example. And it becomes very real when you describe it that way. And yeah, that's a very smart way to describe it. - And where does leverage come into this? 'Cause when I've negotiated, I always think about leverage. Deals I feel I do, but I'm not 100% happy with it. I'm not too happy with it's typically 'cause I felt like the other side had a lot more leverage in the situation and this was my best option to go with. It was 98% their blend and 2% mine. And in other situations where I have leverage or create leverage or I apply leverage, I tend to feel like I do better. But is that too simplistic? How do you think about the word leverage? For me, that's always been key in negotiation. It's not simplistic. It's a step up from floundering entirely to, and it's gonna sound harsh. I mean, you get yourself to be level negotiator there. You never get yourself to AA plus on leverage 'cause leverage is the ability to inflict harm. And if you make a deal based on the ability to inflict harm, these are not those don't go for stable long term relationships. They don't go for the other side sharing information with you that'll change everything because if you've got leverage, you're a threat. And why would they give you important information if you're a threat and vice versa? How much leverage do they have on you? Holy shit, I can't give 'em. I can't tell 'em that, they'll have more leverage. Oh my God. So it can be useful in some situations, but it'll never get you to the best outcome. And because in many cases, you can think about when you made a better deal because of leverage, then that becomes really addicting, really satisfying. And you lose track of the deals that you should have made, but you didn't because you didn't have, are you out of leverage? Or the, you know, it's a very limiting factor. It gets you into passing grade. It just doesn't get you to the top of class. Gotcha. And so what does get me to the top of the class? So we've talked a little bit about it, right? I truly listening, using labels to collect information plus make the other side feel heard and understood. What else is kind of key to get me to the top of the mountain when it comes to negotiation? Well, what you really negotiating, what people really don't understand is how important trust is, and trust is based on how predictable you are. Take out the word, trust to put in the word predictability, you automatically become more trustworthy 'cause you're predictable. And so then the ability to collaborate as we deal with issues because there's always gonna be issues. You know, making the deal is the beginning. You gotta get into implementation. And if we don't trust each other, then problems are gonna crop up and we're not gonna tell you the side. If we've compromised, I'm gonna resent that compromise and what problems crop up, I'm gonna keep my mouth shut 'cause it's gonna hurt you. Because I didn't like the leverage you used on me. I didn't like the way you forced me into this deal. Yeah, you know what? Threaten me, find, find. Make me cooperate. Make me tell you about problems in the early stages as opposed to when they're turning into, the land mine has gone off. It's really an issue of how we're gonna do the implementation. And so the whole issue of, do we start? And then you're even gonna talk about how we're gonna cross the bridge bridges when we get to 'cause there are gonna be problems. You know, I'm gonna train a long time ago for the book came out and the CEO said, this is my CFO and I want you to teach him how to put clauses in contracts. That'll penalize the other side for non-performance. And my thought was, if penalizing the other side for non-performance is your biggest problem, it started a lot sooner. 'Cause you're not making great deals. If you're telling me, you can't get your deals implemented. That's what you're telling me. So you need to back way up and find out what the problem was well before that. 'Cause implementation is where it's at. And if we don't trust each other, if I can't count on you to work through problems with me, it's gonna cost us a lot of money. (upbeat music) - All right, this episode is brought to you by Mercury. They are the finance platform of choice for over 200,000 companies. Shouldn't be surprised 'cause I use it myself for not one, not two, but I have eight different Mercury accounts. I have seven for different companies that I own. part of and then I have my own personal account because now they have personal banking which is a really cool feature. 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What are some examples of kind of the great deals you've seen maybe the great deal makers or great deals that you've seen I think Oprah is a great deal maker and visible examples of that she gets Lance Armstrong to come on TV and answer yes or no questions straight forward is to whether or not he doked and whether or not he did things now I'm not acquainted with Oprah I am acquainted with Lance and I like Lance a lot and when you look at the totality of the circumstances you get quite a different picture as opposed to somebody given you a very narrow view but anyway the Lance Armstrong interview he was a car off guard by those questions that was a negotiation between him and her in advance as to whether or not he was going to get on camera and what she was going to ask you you don't see anything in the media about Lance Armstrong being upset with Oprah Winfrey which means they negotiated a great deal up front that they were both good with and then they executed it and it was no bad blood after the fact that to me that's a great deal and that's an example and a reason why and also if you look at the totality of Oprah think about the fact that she's dealt with some of the most difficult to handle people on earth celebrities who are used to getting their way at all times and she isn't she doesn't have any dust up to the arguments with any of them now how is that possible when in today's day and age celebrities love to have fudes with each other all the time is a way to gather attention but that's not her method of operation and her success as extraordinary especially thinking about where she started and I'd take I'd take a very small percentage of her network and be quite happy do you have a sense of what she does or how how she accomplishes that you know the interesting thing is it's very similar to what we did in the Chaseman Hat Bank because I was talking about a woman talking with a woman in Los Angeles several years ago to work for Oprah and I'm laying all this out and I said the last impression is the last thing impression we did it lieutenant did a by instinct at the Chase Bank I found out later on from I was at a Gallup poll conference on human nature you know the Gallup poll the long time collectors of polling data of course they're sitting on decades of human performance information and this one speaker stands up and says people don't remember things how they happened they remember and they don't remember how it started they remember the most intense moment in how it ended the last impression is the last thing oppression so I'm laying this on my colleague who worked for Oprah and she says oh yeah Oprah is lived by that all of her whole life she said in in the entertainment business the joke is in an Alimah out in a taxi as soon as they get what they want from you know you're out hitching out front finding your own way out but it Oprah it was in an Alimah out in an Alimah and a philosophy was no matter what happened on any interaction no matter what you had to make sure they felt respected heard appreciated and loved at the very end and I've had several conversations related to me when you know but didn't see something eye to eye with somebody else and her last words are well always no matter what I will always love you and I will always be supportive of you and the last impression is the last thing impression and she's she's a master of how do you prep for an interve for negotiations so you'll say you're gonna go try to make a deal and some people have this idea of like a what's it called bat or the best alternative to whatever you know they sort of think about their their desired outcome and then the worst case scenario they're gonna accept other people do lots of research and they try to try to you know find as much as they can about the other party to be you know fully armed when they walk in some people do power moves how how do you prepare for for something that's a negotiation and the business sense in the business context it's gonna be combination of two things I'm the first one I'm gonna think about what negatives you're gonna harbor about me in advance and I'm and I'm not gonna and everybody everybody's got that actually interestingly enough everybody could do this right away even if it's a first interaction one of the things you want to deny I don't want you to think that I'm gonna be greedy I don't want you to think I'm I know this slimy salesperson I don't want you to think that I'm here to maximize my opportunity I don't want you to think I'm wasting your time that I always tell people what would you want to deny walking in that you're gonna instinct telling you a negative desire and you make the shift from a denial to the straight observation they're probably gonna seem greedy I'm probably just gonna seem like another slimy salesperson I'm probably gonna seem like somebody that's wasting your time that then instantly makes me the straight shooter the honest on his purse and so I'm gonna think about what negatives you're gonna you were likely harboring because the brain is 75% negative and that's the fastest way to for me to build a relationship deactivate the negatives and make me look like a straight shooter which increases your trust in me and then there's gonna be some stuff that you're gonna be thinking about that you're gonna be offended if I don't appreciate and you're gonna be offended if I don't appreciate how hard you work the fact that then I'm talking to you at all means you have value and then you have legitimate reasons in your own right to be respected and admired and it's taking what a lot of people would refer to as flattery but then articulating that it's not vacuous flattery it's genuine appreciation from where you're coming from and I might say something like you work very hard to get to where you are today you have been in this business for a very long time and you know what you're doing otherwise if you didn't you wouldn't be sitting here in front of me at all and you have things that are valuable and worthy of my attention and of my respect and you put those two things together and you kind of get empathy that's what you were calling tactical empathy earlier right yeah because there's there's brain science that backs up that approach particularly starting with the negatives before the positives right and why is it so important for I mean this is gonna sound like a dumb question but like it just seems like it's the most important thing so I want to talk a little bit more about it which is why is it so important for somebody to feel understood and heard and why do we defy it seems like what we default to is I can't wait to make my case so that you understand me and I feel heard right right right it seems like the biggest swing I could make as a negotiator is to let go of my need of that or at least initial need of that and really hone in on your need for that and if I just did that one switch I'm a much better a much better trust builder and therefore a much better negotiator when it comes is that the right summary from what you said yeah you know it really is and it's fascinating to think about the fact that people come to the table with such a desire to be heard and to make their case they can't imagine that's what's driving the other side it's blinding and neuroscience wise what differences would make to make somebody feel heard I will trigger to release it in you of your neurochemicals oxytocin and serotonin if you get ahead of oxytocin in interacting with me you're gonna bond with me and you're gonna be far more honest with me oxytocin just it's bonding and truth serotonin is a drug a satisfaction which means you're gonna be less demanding so if I can make you feel heard you're bond with me you're more honest with me and you're less demanding it's pretty good start for negotiation how does Chris Voss you know by car how do you do it in day-to-day everyday situations have you had any any implementation of any of your techniques that on like the low-stake stuff we've seen the hustle negotiation but like what do you do when you're on Craigslist you need a couch or you're you're at the market yeah well you know I tell the other side Why what they are selling is worth what they're asking. You know, I make their case. 'Cause that's what they're gonna say to me. So what I've done is I've just now left them with nothing to say. (laughing) And then, like, see, I can pound you down on price. I mean, I still, if I choose to be, I can be, I can really pound you down. But I better never need to come back to you for anything. And there are a few deals that are complete one-offs. So if I'm buying a car, depend upon who I'm buying it from. I will tell you, I do not have great regard for car dealerships across the board. I no longer ever get any vehicle, I own service that a car dealership. I don't care what the warranty says because I don't trust them. So I don't mind pounding down a car daily. Right. I got no problem with that. And I will do that to them. I will make their case. And then I will become very passive aggressive. And, you know, my favorite is how much I'm supposed to pay that. Well, you would have said all the things that I just got done saying. If I hadn't said it first. But now, if I said all, if I took away all the wind out of your sales, took all the bullets out of your gun, then when I give you the opportunity to point the gun at me, you got empty chambers. You got nothing to say. And I know, and your dealer on a margin and real short order, I'm going to get you down to your bottom line. And then if I like it, we'll make a deal if I don't walk it out. But I better not ever need to come back to you because once I've killed you on price, you are not going to forget that and you are not going to lift a finger to help me ever again. Right. Okay. What about other sort of day to day negotiations? I got little kids. I have a five year old or four year old and one year old. And so my most frequent negotiation is with them. And I'm just curious, do you have any parenting negotiation tips? Maybe it's just don't negotiate at all, but I don't know. I find myself in that pickle a lot. Well, you know, with your kids, this is the, you know, there are ages for thinking, if you will. But what you're really trying to do is as a parent is help your kids think. And so, recognizing where they are in the stages. I heard a long time ago, up to age five, treat a kid like a king, five to 15, you know, work them like an indentured servant at 15, let them go. There's a lot of brain science that that overlaps very closely with that in the development of the brain. But all along the way is you, you want your kids to feel slightly challenged. And you want them to get them to think. Now, do they have the ability to process that at about age four, slash five, six, they start to cross over into ages where they're starting to process that. And what a lot of parents want to do is just order kids around. Like, go to bed because I'm dead. Why? Because I said so. Because I'm the father. That's why. Right. Well, that's not, that's not really helping them think. It's demonstrating to them that the only way you can get stopped on this by through use of force. That is something you want to put up with Bay of Behavior either. You know, one of my favorite videos is some, you know, this mom trying to talk her five-year-old son and to get into backseat of the SUV. And she's come on, you know, and he's crying and making noise. And his nine-year-old sister walks up and grabs him and throws him in the SUV and they get up, they leave. You know, at some point in time, we got to toss the kid in the car. But in the meantime, you know, your job's a parent who's to help them click. And it's not to shield them. It's to challenge them and make them better people help them think. And after all these years of helping people be better negotiators and you teach certain, you know, technique, certain frameworks for this, what do you think is the most easy to implement of all of the frameworks? Meaning the easiest way to get points on the board and start the process of improving in this area. Well, it's really going to be the different ways to repeat back to somebody what they just said. You know, label your focusing on their emotions or affect. Mirrors and paraphrases focus specifically on what they said. It seems like it's got a waste of time and it ends up being a relationship accelerator, which then is a deal-making accelerator. So how do you do it? The more you can make somebody feel heard, the less you could be a threat. And yeah, sometimes Charm is involved. Charm and empathy are very close. Yeah. But who's the most interesting at the table? You think I'm the most interesting person. Okay, cool. We had a great conversation. But are we ever going to make great deals? Now, if I made you think you're the most interesting person, or likely for collaboration is very high. Right. And how do you find that balance or do you need a balance between like my business partner Ben, he's like this. He goes into a lunch. He asks somebody questions because he's genuinely curious. And he's, he tends to know a lot about the other person and what they're interested in because he's paid attention. He observes and he remembers what they said. He remembers where they went. And he's just, so he'll feed them things that he knows they're interested in, not to manipulate them. He's just, that's like who he is. I don't know. He's his nature is to be that way. And he leaves the lunch and they've talked 98% of the time. He's talked 2% of the time. He's asked them a couple of questions that he knows everything about them. They know nothing about him. And they go, this was amazing. We got to do this again. This was one of the best. This is so fun. I would love to do this again. And you know, he comes back at the same time. I'm curious if there's a sort of a downside to going too far in that direction where you know, you haven't sort of demonstrated value or. You know, provided the other side with an, you know, sort of almost like an, like an API connection, like an ability to understand what your needs are and how they might be able to help or intersect with what you do. Is there a danger in going too far down the kind of like, let the other side talk route? Well, first of all, curiosity is the superpower. Like it and it and it like it is a superpower like it's ridiculous. Where it shows up in terms of your survival, their survival, long term relationships, your resilience, your ability to discover new things. Like curiosity, I can tell you so many different ways it's a superpower. So now what's the danger? At some point of time, we got to keep in mind while we're talking. And if you get too curious, then we have a finite amount of time. We got an hour together. If I, if we got an hour together and we get nothing accomplished, what are you going to remember? You really enjoy the conversation, but we didn't get anything done. So it might feel like it was a waste of your time. You have to be aware of the progress that has to be made. And my team, what we always do is we set finite periods of time for meetings, period. And we never go over. It doesn't matter where we are. We'll set another meeting before we go over a meeting. Because time is this commodity. It is so limited that if I don't help you manage your time and your interactions with me, then pretty soon you're going to start avoiding me. Well speaking of you seem like a guy who is very conscious of his time. I want to make sure it looks like we're 11 minutes over. So I want to make sure I didn't mind. I enjoyed the conversation. I do want to tell some people about some stuff. Yeah, tell it please. So we've started this new thing called the Black Swan Negotiation Community. And you go to our website and find it. And it really is across the board. Amazon, one stop shopping for where you are and you're in the negotiation journey. You can't afford anything. Come into the community because membership is free and get started getting a return on the investment of your time in terms of dollars. So get started on your journey. And your incremental change could be monumental very quickly. Awesome, Chris. Thank you so someone for coming on also for, I don't know, all the content that you put out over the years. I've always picked and picked and chewed on different little bits of it, especially whenever I was in the process of either raising money or selling my company. It was these very brief periods of time, maybe three weeks, four weeks, six weeks, where the value of my years of effort would swing by 50% depending on how good I was at negotiating and understanding, you know, the other side and being able to find a mutual beneficial deal. It's one of these arts where it can make a really big difference at a very small amount of time being, you know, the difference between being bad at it versus good at it versus great at it. And so I appreciate you coming on and helping us be a little better at it today. That was a pleasure. (upbeat music) All right, let's take a quick break because as you know, we are on the HubSpot podcast network but we're not the only ones. There's other podcasts on this network too and maybe you like them, maybe you should check them out. One of them that I want to draw your attention to is called Nudge by Phil Agnew. And whether you're a marketer or a salesperson and you're looking for the small changes you could make, the new habits you could do, the small decisions you could make that will make a big difference. That's what that podcast is all about. Check it out, it's called Nudge You can get it wherever you get your podcast.