#5 Go where the tension is. Taming Scope 3 with Ex-Unilever Global Climate Director Francois Tasmowski

0:00 Meet Francois Tasmowski: Taming Corporate Sustainability's Bane Welcome to the Nature Diplomats podcast where we explore the stories of people in business to protect our planet. Francois Tasmusky is a name many have never heard of and yet its holder has influenced sustainability. Road map of many product we all use on a daily basis. 0:19 Nestle, McCain and then Unilever. Francois climbed the corporate ladder until landing one of the biggest jobs in corporate sustainability. Global Climate Director at Unilever, one of the world's largest companies reaching around 4 billion people across 190 countries every single day. 0:38 Dove, Axe, Vaseline, Lipton, Kunor, Ben and Jerry's. And that's just a fraction of the range. A product range spanning that many supply chains brings enormous challenges for anyone trying to make them more sustainable. This is why only a great expert and supply chain transformation and stakeholder engagement could fill those shoes. 1:01 And Francois was that person until a couple of months ago when he decided to leave it all behind and join a free man Brussels based, tied up. He now has one objective in mind. Help others tame corporate sustainability's bane. 1:19 Do notorious scope free. 1:36 Francois, good morning. 1:38 Speaker 2 Hi, Jessa. 1:40 Speaker 1 How are you this morning? 1:41 Speaker 2 I'm good, thank you. Glad to be here. 1:43 Speaker 1 OK. Likewise, I've really been looking forward to this one because we're finally going to talk about something which is a bit less glamorous, but is a very decisive number in corporate sustainability, which is an area which you're an like an expert on. 2:01 It's scope 3. Most companies can tell you exactly what's happening inside their own operations at, you know, within their four worlds, but very few have a very clear understanding of what happens in their supply chain. 2:20 And as it happens, you have spend many years in some of the world's largest companies doing just that. So I really want to dive into this topic. But first, I think that it's always important to understand the person, the person behind the work. 2:39 So Francois, you spend years building your career to end up at the head of the global head of climate at Unilever, one of the largest fast moving consumer good company in the world. 2:58 I think Unilever needs no introduction. We all know we'll use their products on on a daily basis. And you after some years there, you did something which is quite surprising. So you went from being one of the leader and, and having one of the biggest jobs in corporate sustainability there is in the world to joining a startup of free Brussels based focusing on this time helping companies with their scope free emissions. 3:33 So it's it's quite atypical. Usually this is the way people start a career and at end, no, not ending, but you know, the, the shift is, is very interesting. And I really want to hear more about this because it's I'm sure there are a lot of very valid reasons. 3:51 It was a decision that you took based on, you know, a lot of different factors and I want to explore because I think it's interesting. But before all of this, as I said, I want to understand who you are. 4:03 How a Sabbatical Sparked a Sustainability Career Shift So, Francois, who are you? 4:06 Speaker 2 Who am I? That's quite a deep philosophical question. Well, I'm Belgian, I'm living in the South of Brussels in Waterloo with my wife and three girls. 1, my older 1 turned 18 just a week ago and I have twins who are almost turning 16. 4:28 So father and partner in the 1st place, I would say. And yeah, like you said, 20 years sustainability. I'm an economist, studied here at the VB in Brussels. And then I did a master's in marketing management at the VA school. 4:47 And then I started up Nestle in marketing. I've done done 10 years of marketing and innovation. And then I switched to corporate sustainability and I've been in corporate sustainability for the last 15 years. 5:01 Speaker 1 Why did you switch to corporate sustainability? 5:05 Speaker 2 So I was five years doing marketing at Nestle. I was the product manager of Nesquik and wow. 5:13 Speaker 1 Nesquik and brings me back to child Cocoa. 5:15 Speaker 2 Yeah, childhood and and cocoa value chain. And so as I've always had a tendency to look deep, I was, you know, stepping out of the marketing role and knocking on the doors of the supply chain people and asking about, you know, where is the cocoa coming from and the source of the raw material of next week. 5:38 And then I was kindly told that, you know, that was not really my job. I just had to sell next week. And even in the job of selling next week, I started asking tough questions because we were selling next week as the perfect drink to make children grow healthy. 5:57 Because obviously you drink next week with milk and milk is good for growth with the calcium, but the reality is that 80% of next week is sugar. 6:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. Would you give it to your own children? 6:09 Speaker 2 Well, I did give it to my own children, but as a, you know, conscious marketeer, I was asking questions about some of the decisions that were taken then at the at the marketing level. 6:25 Anyhow, after five years at at Nestle, I actually decided that I wanted to take sabbatical. It was something that I already wanted to do at the end of my university, but that I thought, yeah, let's first get some professional experience. 6:41 So at least I have that on my CV. And at that time there was a incredible law still existing in Belgium, which was the time credit law that enabled young professionals to follow their dreams and then come back after a while and still be able to. 7:02 Speaker 1 Go back in the same company. 7:03 Speaker 2 In the same company, at the same role. So I received a little subvention from the Belgian government to actually go and travel in Southeast Asia. I took my backpack on my own and I travelled in India, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand. 7:21 And that was really the turning point in my career because when I was travelling, I started asking different questions about, you know, who is actually leading the world and who is actually making the world evolve in a certain direction. 7:43 And then over the course of multiple weeks and months of reflection, I discovered the term corporate social responsibility. That was in 2520, years ago. 7:56 Speaker 1 So that was. 7:56 Speaker 2 So at that time CSR was barely known, you know, it was philanthropy or yeah, exactly charity, philanthropy, corporate giving, etcetera. And I was quite surprised because in my economics, nobody ever told me about CSR or sustainability. 8:16 In my marketing management, NBA, nobody ever told about that. So I became really passionate about that, very curious about that. And I ordered like 12 books that I could find the only. 8:28 Speaker 1 12 books that were available. 8:30 Speaker 2 Amazon to, you know, dive into the topic myself. And then when I came back after my travel, I really read a lot about that and I decided I want to shift my career towards sustainability. 8:42 Speaker 1 This is so interesting because we've been speaking to, you know, to quite a few guests now on the podcast. And you're not the first one to say that going on sabbatical was a transformative moment because it allowed you to 1st get outside of your context on, you know, a bit of this rat race. 9:04 Sometimes we're in or and there's routine where, you know, you go to work and it's normal. You don't always re question some of the things, right? And if you are sometimes taken out of your context and explore different things, then you start asking yourself questions that maybe you wouldn't be asking yourself if you were just at home with your own, you know, within your own bubble, right? 9:27 And so do you think that now you know, you said you have 3 girls, they're 1816 and 16. They I imagine 18 one will eventually go to university or is maybe already at uni. 9:43 Would you advise him to go on a sabbatical? 9:45 Speaker 2 Oh yeah. Oh, no doubt about that. I mean, that's the best decision I've ever taken in my life. It literally changed my life, changed my career towards sustainability. I met my wife during my travel. OK, good. She's German. 10:01 She was also backpacking in India. We met in India and then long story, she ended up in Brussels. And you know, we're married since 20 years. And particularly like you said, for me it was really a search for meaning because I had been following a conditioned typical track, my mother being a marketeer, my father being an economist, Larry Calumny, etcetera. 10:28 So I was I had just been following. 10:31 Speaker 1 Replicating the models. 10:32 Speaker 2 The model that, you know, was provided to me without necessarily asking the deeper questions about who I truly am, what I truly want, and that that was really the the moment. And so yes. 10:48 And, and it also obviously teaches you, you know, entrepreneurship. It teaches you to rely on yourself and, and find your own way out of the path necessary. And so, yeah, I would, I would undoubtedly encourage anyone, my daughters and anyone else to, to do this type of choices. 11:09 Yeah. 11:10 Speaker 1 I really agree with you. Been on sabbatical for almost 2 years but it wasn't sabbatical. I don't like the word sabbatical because sabbatical comes from the word Shabbat, which is a break. Yes, but it's resting. But it's not resting like you're constantly in movement. You are literally have more stimuli coming to you than if you were just within your own context. 11:28 But that's for another conversation. It's, you also said you were an economist and, but that you discovered the, you know, corporate social responsibility and, and companies taking care of of their negative externalities. 11:46 When you were on travels, when you were at university where you taught about negative externalities and what companies were doing, was there already a mention of CSI or accounting for your negative externalities? 12:01 Speaker 2 No, not at all. It was a new topic and, and as a matter of fact, I didn't really come to that realization through the negative impact, but I really came through the realization of the potential for positive impact because I was, I was looking for some type of career orientation where I could have a positive impact. 12:23 And, and then I was thinking, you know, should I go into politics or should I go into an NGO Civic Society? And then I realized that the institution institutions that were the most efficient for positive impact at scale were global multinational organizations because politics are extremely fragmented. 12:49 NGOs are extremely fragmented. Global multinationals are, you know, global by scale. And and that's, that was really the, the aha moment where I realized, OK, the the ones that can really drive the most positive impact at the biggest scale in the fastest time are the multinational corporations. 13:11 Inside Unilever: Decarbonization, Scope 3, and Systemic Change So this was your hypothesis when you joined a multinational. Now, after more than 20 years doing that, does it still stand today? Has it been confirmed? 13:23 Speaker 2 Well, yes. And I would say that what I realize now is that the one of the biggest impacts that corporates can have is actually leveraging their voice towards driving new policies and influence in politics. 13:44 Because however you look at it in the different stages of maturity of an organization when it comes to growing in terms of taking responsibility for nature and climate, etcetera. There is a, there is a journey. 14:00 And when you are very immature on that journey, basically the only thing you care about is legal compliance is what does the policies mandate me to do what I'm what am I obliged to do? 14:15 And if I don't, I will have to face some fines. And then so the the baseline for sustainability is compliance. And so one of the things that major corporations such as Unilever or Nestle can do is that they have such a power of influence that when they knock on the door of the European Commission or on, you know, whatever government door, they will actually be listened to. 14:46 And so they have a big responsibility beyond their own operations to really influence, I believe the sector and, and drive real transitions across sectors. And if if you take a company like Unilever, it's it's, it's five different companies in one consortium. 15:05 You have a food company, you have a chemical company, you have a beauty company. And so they are influencing multiple sectors. And so I would say yes, they are still the ones that can have the fastest impact. 15:22 And at the same time, there's a big need for policies to become much more ambitious, especially when it comes to nature, because nature is a common good first and foremost. While you could argue that many value chains, you know, specific ingredients and materials and climate impact and energy footprint in many cases is also very close to the own operations and own responsibility of a company. 15:51 So that's a. That's a big difference. 15:53 Speaker 1 Well, I've been to this straight after, but first I wanted to understand what were your what was your actual role at Unilever because I said you were the global climate director. What does it mean and what was it day-to-day like? 16:09 What were your responsibilities there? 16:12 Speaker 2 Yeah. So I had the three major responsibilities. 1 was the delivery of the scope one and two decarbonization target, which means the reduction of the carbon footprint in the 250 factories of Unilever. 16:29 Speaker 1 That's business operations. 16:30 Speaker 2 Business operations and the target was 0 emissions by 2030, so quite ambitious target. Second big priority was Scope 3, decarbonization, which basically means decarbonizing your value chain and footprints of your suppliers. 16:50 And the third big priority was developing carbon management and reporting data platform so that we could move from data collection to data insights to then data intelligence. 17:06 Speaker 1 So your role was to deliver on the targets of the group, had said where you're on, where you're on track, is the group on track, Were there 20/30/20. 17:15 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, the scope one and two own operations we ended at -76% on the baseline of 2015, end of last year, that's on track. And the pathway towards 0 is clear. 17:32 Scope 3, we actually formalized a size based target, a near term size based target of -39% by 2030 on a 21 baseline that was signed off by the shareholders in 2022. 17:50 And there there's still much more work to be done. And on the Carbon Data Management platform, we have established a new platform in partnership with Microsoft, which is good, but still much more opportunity to move from data collection to insights and intelligence, especially with AII think there's there's much more work to be done there. 18:15 Speaker 1 What's your proudest achievement of your time at Unilever? 18:19 Speaker 2 Without any doubt, the scope tree supplier engagement first the the target setting -39% is now public targets. And so as a publicly owned company, they are obliged to deliver and and it's a very ambitious target. 18:39 I do want to highlight that, you know, when you say I am responsible, I would emphasize that as a small team, you are more like a catalyst than really the one that is delivering everything in the manufacturing operations. 18:57 It's really about engaging all of the manufacturing directors and engineers and finance people, CapEx, the CapEx decision makers in a way that it becomes embedded into the operational decision making processes. 19:15 Similarly on Scope 3, it's really about engaging the procurement professionals and the procurement teams at all the different levels across the different categories, across the different business groups. And again, establishing the right conditions and governance and systems and processes and incentives to actually make the system deliver. 19:36 And, and with the management system, it's with, it's with, it's with IT, it's with the innovation and tech teams to really establish that as part of the. 19:46 Speaker 1 Data management. Would you say that the responsibility for a sustainability team is really to build the right system for the company to be able to deliver on the targets? 20:00 Speaker 2 It is about creating the right conditions for the system to evolve into the delivery of the targets. And that's, that's a big job because the, one of the realizations working at, at Unilever for for years is that the amount of stakeholder engagement, you know, you're talking about nature diplomacy. 20:26 It's almost like a diplomat job. Like imagine when you are in the United Nations and you need to negotiate a new climate policy and you need to engage with, you know, 27 European member countries and within each country 15 different cabinets and ministers, etcetera. 20:46 It's a little bit the same in the corporate. The size of Unilever is that you need to engage so many stakeholders to basically rally everyone that is meaningful to your cause behind your targets, behind your objectives, behind your cause. 21:05 And so that takes a lot of time, takes a lot of diplomacy. And that's where it's so important to have systems in place so that it doesn't become people dependent. Because the biggest difference I've seen between major company like Unilever, which is undoubtedly a climate leader versus between brackets, a smaller scale company like McCain Foods, which is only, you know, €12 billion company. 21:36 But I would say on the maturity level of climate journey, they would be more the learners. The biggest difference is that in Unilever, it's not people dependent anymore. It has become so embedded into the systems and the governance and the incentives that. 21:56 Speaker 1 It's rolling almost by itself. 21:58 Speaker 2 Whether you have a visionary leader that believes in it or whether you have a reluctant leader that even questions whether climate change is real, there are many of them in the US. You know, 30% of the US is voting Trump, so you find these people as well. In corporates it doesn't make a difference because the system is organised in a way that just structurally evolves into that direction. 22:20 Speaker 1 So you think this is one of the biggest sign or one of the, you know, best way to evaluate the maturity of a company is to see whether it is led by a leader or it is really dependent on one person or if there is a well established system in place. 22:41 Speaker 2 Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. No doubt about that. And, and I think the, the moment that sustainability becomes embedded in the finance function, in the procurement function, in the commercial function and in the systems data and reporting, that's really a sign of, of maturity because these are the, it's almost like the backbone of a corporation. 23:12 You know, if you, if you make this an analogy with a very small company, you know what, what is a very small company? Imagine a company of 10 people, well, you, you need to have your finances, right? 23:27 You need to have your procurement right. Like how much do you spend? What type of materials or ingredients or services do you buy? You need to have your commercial right? What do you sell to who, when at how much and your systems like whether you are a one person company or you know, €60 billion company, these are the that's the core of a company. 23:49 And then if you translate that into corporate lingo, you can talk about power dynamics is that you know, the ones, the finance and the procurement and the commercial teams who have who managed the budgets, the biggest budgets, they have the biggest power. 24:06 Once they start being either nudged or forced or inspired to include sustainability, climate and nature into their decision making processes, that's a game changer. Because that's really. 24:21 Speaker 1 Tough. It's really tough. I totally agree. But what's the What's the best way to go about it? 24:28 Speaker 2 Well, it starts by having ambitious targets, and that is indeed. 24:33 Speaker 1 But to set targets, you need to have convincing before. What's the best way to ensure that the score departments are convinced and are on board with division or, you know, with division, the compliance or how do you ensure that first they agree to go in that direction and then that you set ambitious targets and then the systems to deliver on those targets? 24:58 Yeah. 24:59 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, that's, that's the $1,000,000 question of course is that often in organisations that don't have ambitious targets, it's very difficult to get these functions on board because they are not incentivized by the targets of the system to go there. 25:19 And then it becomes very people dependent. You, you, I have amazing examples of, you know, commercial leaders and procurement leaders who want to make a difference and then we do great stuff together. But it's until you have formal targets in place that the system is actually driving all of these functions in the direction how to get to that place where you set the target. 25:45 I mean, that is often depending on visionary leaders for sure, both at McCain and at Chiquita and at Unilever. The factor that led to this ambitious targets were visionary leaders. 26:04 "Go Where the Tension Is": Driving Change in Supply Chains It's, it's interesting because now you're talking about the need to rally around a certain vision. But if I remember well, once you said that, so the adhesion part is important, but then the friction in the conflict part is essential to in the company. 26:23 What? What does it mean? 26:25 Speaker 2 Yeah, I think there's for me there's two major insights if I reflect on the, you know, the last decade and and, and the decade going forward is that I think the last decade was about setting ambitious targets and, and how do you set ambitious targets and how do you get companies to get a science based target etcetera. 26:50 And and we've done good progress in that space. Corporate sustainability has done good progress. There are I think 40% of the biggest companies in the world now have size based targets in place. 27:05 And so the target setting part, even if there, there's still a long way to go, especially on the long tail of, you know, small and medium companies. The target setting part for the biggest corporates in the world. Somehow that's already done a good job. 27:23 Where now the real challenges and that where I think the, the, the challenges for the next decade is actually bridging the say do gap. What's what do you actually do? You know, OK, you've set the target, you've set a good intent, great. 27:39 I know it was not easy to get there, so I congratulate you, but now how do you deliver on that? And, and, and that's where the conversation shifts to a very different place. 27:50 Speaker 1 And that's a conflict. 27:51 Speaker 2 And that's where you get to the to the second point of tension is that as long as sustainability is operating at the fringes of a business, when you're doing community engagement, when you're doing marketing campaigns and you know, beautiful ads and employee engagement, voluntary volunteering initiatives, it's all great. 28:15 I'm not minimizing at all these things. They are very important. But when sustainability is operating in that space, it's easy, relatively easy for a finance director or a procurement director to look at it from the sideline and say, OK, that's nice. 28:33 I feel good that my company is doing good things for the community and engaging employees. But it doesn't affect me as a professional that needs to buy the, the material or the ingredient at the best cost. And you know, my, my incentive is cost savings. I don't have to worry about sustainability as soon as sustainability becomes part of the operating system. 28:54 And the finance guy needs to ask himself how do I include that in my financial reporting? And the procurement guy needs to wonder how do I shift towards renewable low carbon materials who cost 20% more? And a commercial person needs to think about how do I engage my clients to actually pay more for sustainability or not. 29:16 That's when it becomes uncomfortable. And that's where the tension starts to appear. And that's where also the frustration of many sustainability managers is appearing because many sustainability managers that I meet are facing resistance and are exhausted because they are always facing resistance and tension, etcetera. 29:38 And I'm like, it's good if you don't face resistance, that means you don't do your job well, you know? 29:44 Speaker 1 You would say to all of the sustainability managers that may listen to this episode, go where the tension is. 29:51 Speaker 2 Yes, Don't shy away from the difficult conversations. Absolutely, Absolutely. 29:57 Speaker 1 It's like in a marriage, right? Where you also have some time for things. 30:01 Speaker 2 To actually it's a system dynamic absolutely. And if you, if you want, and I know so many sustainability leaders that have such great aspirations, there's a lot of idealism in the sustainability space and they want to change the system and they want to make a positive impact, et cetera. 30:20 If you want to do that, you have to go where the difficult conversations are. You have to go and really analyse, you know, what, what is the core of this business? What is the root of this business? And, and, and then you know, where is your start? 30:36 You need to start with the data and the analytics and really understand where is my biggest footprint in terms of impact. And then where is the materiality of that? Like who are the suppliers or the countries or the sectors or the brands or the products that, that, that really make the biggest impact like the 2080 rule? 31:00 And and then you need to look at, OK, where do I as a company have the biggest commercial leverage or influence, let's say influence to make, you know, a positive conversation. 31:11 Speaker 1 Do you think that as you come from a, a world of multinational, do you think that it's it's one of the responsibilities of big organization? So you talked about the lobbying power, but it's also one of the responsibilities is really to be able to influence the whole supply chains because as a small actor, you say you have to change your practice. 31:36 OK, thanks. You know, next. But if you are a Unilever, McCain, you can literally influence a whole global supply chain. 31:46 Speaker 2 Yes, absolutely. I think that is the difference between sustainability leadership and sustainability competitive advantage, let's say. 31:59 Speaker 1 And you've worked in different types of supply chains. So you've worked with Nesquik in the cocoa supply chain, you've worked in the banana supply chain with Chiquita, with Makanis potato and everything you can do with potato. And then at Unilever you have many different types of supply chain. You know, you said you also have chemical supply chains, not just nature based or commodity supply chain. 32:18 Is there anything that holds true for all of these different supply chains? And were there any particular supply chain which was easier to transform than others? 32:29 Speaker 2 Yes. So the biggest difference between the potato value chain, for example, and a chemical value chain is in the case of McCain, they were doing 100% of their potato sourcing directly with the farmers. 32:47 Speaker 1 Yeah. 32:48 Speaker 2 OK, direct. 32:48 Speaker 1 Relationship with the farmers. 32:50 Speaker 2 And so and, and very long term relationships with the farmers, in many cases, multiple generations and in many cases exclusive to McCain, 100% of the potatoes grown on that farm were for McCain. So the, the amount of interdependency and and trust that there was between the farmers and the McCain transformer was huge. 33:14 And so the level of influence was quite, quite high. If you take a value chain, a chemical value chain at Unilever for example, there's multiple tiers. So we buy, for example, tomatoes, we would buy tomato paste to put in the Canoe bouillon and that tomato paste would be bought from the tomato cooperative and the tomato cooperative would be buying from the different tomato farmers who were doing crop rotation and far and tomatoes was was only 10% of their yield. 33:46 And so the, the, the level of direct influence that you have as a Unilever to change the practices of the tomato farmer versus, and again, changing the practices of the potato farmer are quite different. And, and even more, I would say when you take supply chains like the chemicals where Unilever would buy from the likes of Dough and Solvay and BSF, Unilever is actually a very small customer of a dough and a BSF because they are massive companies. 34:20 Then you get into the, into the oil and the drilling and that's, you know, an even bigger sector where Unilever's influence is, is even lower. So I think that this type of questioning is exactly the level of, yeah, sophistication or depth that you actually need to go into right now. 34:43 You need to move beyond the target. Like what does it even mean 39% of carbon reduction for Unilever and how you need to go into what does it mean for my plastics value chain? What does it mean for my palm oil value chain? What does it mean for my aluminium packaging value chain? 35:03 And really drill down per category, per ingredient and per material and analyze their the hotspots, the suppliers, the tools of intervention, etcetera. And that that's also where it becomes super interesting. 35:18 Speaker 1 I can imagine. 35:19 Speaker 2 And that's also where you realize that in order to switch this at that level, you often need the whole sector to coalitions. Yeah. 35:30 Speaker 1 You've been talking about what to do or what you, you know what you have done in a bit of, you know, the learnings, but there's always the other side of the learnings is what not to do. Was there any initiative that you took or anything that you thought was essential which actually proved to be wrong? 35:50 So if for example, you you have someone that wants to engage their suppliers, they have a couple of commodities and a value chain is quite simple. Is there anything that you usually see which is a bad idea? 36:05 Speaker 2 Yeah, I would say when it comes to engaging suppliers, the the biggest mistake you can do is expect that the one-size-fits-all would make the trick. That's undoubtedly my biggest learning is that when we launched our our supplier climate engagement program at Unilever, we actually segmented our supplier in function of their climate maturity. 36:28 We took the top 300 suppliers that represented roughly 50% of the footprint of Unilever and then made a climate maturity assessment. And it turned out that 40% of these top 300 were climate beginners. They were at the very early stage of their climate journey. 36:45 They in many cases they didn't even have a knowledge of their own carbon footprint, let alone the footprint of the product they sell to Unilever. And then about 40% were climate learners where they had some experience in their own operations, but no product carbon footprint capability, no science based targets, no scope tree, etcetera. 37:06 And then about 20% were leaders. And it turned out that at the very early stage of the program, we asked all of the suppliers to sign climate promise. And actually that didn't work because the leaders were ready to sign a climate promise with ambitious targets and you know, commitments to report and really etcetera. 37:28 The beginners were not, the learners were on the fence and opting a lot. Once we started adapting our engagement to the needs of the maturity level of the supplier and really look at supply engagement as a value proposition for your supplier. 37:44 What's in it for them? What do they need? Do they need knowledge? Do they need capacity building, do they need hand holding or do they need commercial off take agreements or financing solutions, etcetera. And yeah, that that would be the the big one. 38:00 Speaker 1 Is there anything that is not usually thought of which is actually a good thing to implement and supply engagement? 38:08 Speaker 2 Well, the good thing without any doubt and it's difficult unfortunately, it's taking the time to really do in depth workshops with them with cross functional teams. Cross functional. I mean you need to have around the table the R&D people, the sustainability people and the procurement people. 38:30 Because if you think about decarbonisation, there's basically two big levers. 1 is decarbonising your existing materials and ingredients, mostly true energy efficiency and switching to renewable energy solutions. 38:46 And the other one is switching towards lower carbon renewable alternative materials and ingredients. If you want to switch to lower carbon materials, you need innovation, you need R&D. You need to think through how that fits into your products, new products or how, how this will affect the specs of your products, how this will possibly affect your customer value proposition, etcetera. 39:12 And so taking the time to really with your suppliers and with your own teams, cross functionally deep dive into these topics and then really build the engagement is, is really what makes a difference. 39:28 The Entrepreneurial Leap: From Unilever to a Sustainability Startup I can see that you love this topic. You really are just generally super interesting and that you've enjoyed your time there as leading all of these different initiatives. You can see that cracking this nut is, is something that you you like and yet last, I think it was 12 months ago or or two years ago, you have made this radical shift. 39:48 Speaker 2 Six months ago. 39:49 Speaker 1 Six months ago. Wow, should have done better research but no, it's why. Why have you changed? Let me just take a minute of your time to tell you about who makes this show possible. 40:04 First, there's Nature Eyes or Mothership, which helps businesses understand and act on their relationship with nature so they can confidently move towards a nature positive future. But more importantly, it is you or listeners. This show is made for you. 40:20 So if you enjoy it and if you want to help, there's one very quick and free thing you can do. Hit the follow button. It helps us more than you think. But more importantly, it means you won't miss any of the conversation we have planned for you. Thank you very much. 40:39 Speaker 2 It's very simple is that as I, as I said, you know, Unilever is fantastic in terms of opportunity for impact. But if you look at my career, I've literally always been driven by, on the one hand, people like inspiring people that I know and that I want to, you know, grow it and have a, a journey with. 41:04 I've been driven by culture. What type of culture do I want to be part of? And the values and the spirit of the, of the environment in which I work. And I've been driven by learning, like growth. What, what do do I as a person need and want to grow and develop? 41:23 And so six months ago at, at Unilever, I, I came to a point it was not only universe, it was 20 years of corporate life. I've only worked in corporate my whole career. I've come at the point where I felt that the system, the needs of the system required for the type of job I was doing were actually less fulfilling me than it used to because probably 6070% of my time was ultimately in stakeholder engagement, or you could call it politics and also a reporting. 41:59 And that, you know, when you are in such a established system, you need to report monthly, you need to report quarterly, you need to report to the sustainability steering committee, to the procurement steering committee, to the you. 42:15 You were basically, I was basically, I mean, I, I worked with the fantastic team, of course, but I felt that most of my time was into stakeholder engagement and reporting. And I felt very strongly at that point that I wanted to reconnect with the field, come back to, yeah, real life because, because stakeholder engagement and reporting is interesting and is necessary, but it's very conceptual. 42:45 You know, it's, it's, it's, it's not, you don't feel necessarily the, the impact of what you do. And that's OK. You know, you have to know that if you aspire to become a director or AVP in corporate life, it is part of your job description. So that that is also what makes you successful. 43:04 If you want to grow, you need to do more stakeholder engagement and reporting is part of that. But I, I felt at that time a really calling to reconnect with my entrepreneurial roots. I'm coming from a family of entrepreneurs. 43:19 My, both of my parents were entrepreneurs and I would argue that during the course of my career, I have always been an intrapreneur. You know, I, I created my own function at Chiquita. 43:34 Sustainability didn't exist in Europe at the time. I created my function. I then created my function at McCain, first at European level, then at corporate level, etcetera. And so I'm driving in an entrepreneurial mindset. 43:50 And then I met, you know, Eric and, and not one very coincidentally in January, I don't even recall how, but we chatted with Eric and then I was telling him I was considering, I was considering a transition in my career. 44:10 I also wanted to reconnect with my roots in, in Belgium. I've been the last 15 years at international level, European and global level. And so all the networks and all the people I've been engaging with were at international level and I, I kind of felt like I was missing my routes of my place. 44:30 You know, I wanted to reconnect to my Belgian routes and also be more present with, you know, my family. And so I chatted with Eric and then from one thing to another, I realized, oh, they're actually together with all to 1 hearings. They're actually doing something really exciting. 44:48 One was the fact that they were looking beyond carbon at monetary boundaries framework, which I think is also going to be the next sustainability edge, getting out of the carbon tunnel and moving to nature. 45:05 Secondly, they were developing quite ambitious climate and nature regeneration programs which they have been doing extremely successfully as CO2 Logic and I knew Eric from CO2 Logic. So I was already inspired by by that work. 45:23 And then they were launching their impact investment funds with the intention to also support with funding and and blended finance entrepreneurial ventures and possibly also scale UPS that were addressing some planetary boundary solution. 45:43 And the interdependence of these three topics are found quite interesting because when you cancel a company on the transition pathway and then you can include into that some perspectives around carbon credits for compensation and entrepreneurial solutions, possible vertical integration solutions or financing solutions. 46:06 It becomes a very interesting way to offer holistic solutions. It's an ecosystem, yes. 46:12 Speaker 1 And and of course, the ecosystem. 46:14 Speaker 2 That they are building. It's actually very energetic to be part of a, you know, a dynamic young team full of ambition that wants to make a difference. And I, I, I really love to reconnect with that energy of entrepreneurship. 46:29 It's it's almost not a rebirth. 46:31 Speaker 1 But like it's, it's a completely new career that now opens up. Obviously you're taking all of your skills, knowledge that you've developed over the years, but you apply it in such a different context. The interesting bit is that you now work in helping other companies with their scope free. 46:50 You are on the other side, so you are the consultant and you no longer the one that has to build the internal systems reporting, et cetera. What's your vision for this? Because as you have the experience in the big organization really in changing the supply chain in building those systems and now you are more on the person advising how to do it. 47:10 What's your what's your vision for it? But then also most importantly is, is there any way that consultants operate that you think should be changed? It really fit the reality of the company. One major. 47:22 Speaker 2 Difference that I'm observing between my profile coming from corporate in your consulting role and and established consultants, let's say, is that I speak the language of the field. In many cases, consultants come with a very theoretical view of the world and very conceptual recommendations on how to drive change. 47:45 And I find that often a little bit disconnected. 47:50 Speaker 1 From. 47:51 Speaker 2 Operational realities and particularly maybe not realizing the amount of politics that are involved in actually establishing the right governance and engaging the right people to make something sustainable. 48:09 It's a lot of change management, a lot of. 48:11 Speaker 1 Change management and so. 48:14 Speaker 2 I, I find that when I connect with some customers in the last six months, my narrative very quickly goes to very operational topics and engagement, stakeholder engagement topics. And I realized to what extent still many sustainability leaders don't realize the importance of taking the time for stakeholder engagement for the uncomfortable conversation with the procurement leader, with the finance leader, with the commercial leaders. 48:43 And so I am then enabling these conversations and also requesting these conversations as part of the projects that we're doing. And that that changes the nature of the of the relationship because they then realize that, OK, if we really want to do shifts at the core, the stakeholder engagement skill set is absolutely necessary. 49:07 It's extremely important that. 49:09 Speaker 1 People in the consultancy world also know the other side on the spectrum of what happens after. I come from the world of consulting myself and as yeah, you should do this and why don't you do this, You need to be more ambitious. And very often, you know, I stopped and I said, OK, just here take it a bit with humility because you don't always know the effort that it takes and the internal politics and, and how much you need to, to fight for these things to happen. 49:38 So it's extremely important for me. 49:41 Democratizing Sustainability: Nature Integration for SMEs And I think it's, it's one of the great value that you have is that you have done the work internally on, but you've not just changed from big, you know, a big organization to start up. You've also changed your focus from so climate to planetary boundaries. 49:59 You said earlier that you think this is the next sustainability edge, that this is where companies will eventually go. Why do you think that it's important for a company to start to integrate nature, biodiversity and and basically planetary boundaries? 50:19 As I said before, I. 50:20 Speaker 2 Think this is it's really a journey. What I've seen, what I'm still seeing actually is that once companies have reached a certain level of maturity on the climate, they then can start expanding that perspective to nature because nature, what is complex in nature is that it's often beyond your own value chain. 50:44 Let me take the example of palm oil at at Unilever. So Unilever is the biggest private buyer of palm oil in the world. If you think about the net 0 road map, the climate road map at Unilever, the biggest lever, the 1st and biggest most material lever for decarbonization at Unilever is palm. 51:08 Palm is typically sourced from Malaysia, Indonesia, been there and there is huge deforestation issue in these areas of the world. Therefore, the no deforestation has become is one of the nature targets in terms of their palm oil sourcing also very much driven by regulation and you know by by the the policies that are happening there. 51:36 But so the carbon benefit of sourcing palm from a deforestation free land is huge. And so that's, that's the first point, the interdependency between climate and nature. 51:53 In many value chains, it's easier to see in the food value chain. But in many value chains, there's definitely an interdependency that you need to get, you need to get to that level of data and understanding. 52:09 But having said that, there's still a big difference between sourcing palm deforestation free and making the right investments for your palm oil mills to put bio gas captures and reducing the energy footprint of your palm oil mill which is still in your value chain and trying to engage your palm oil farmers maybe to do regentive practices or SPO. 52:37 Speaker 1 Exactly. 52:38 Speaker 2 And protecting and restoring the forests that are adjacent to your pound value chain, which is you could argue in, in, in many cases, one can consider, it's a nice to have. 52:53 It's not in my value chain, it's just the ecosystem that is supporting my value chain. And so nature requires a level of leadership and a level of understanding of the interdependence of your ecosystem because of course, your pound value chain will never try if within a failing ecosystem. 53:16 So that is, that is one insight is that it's unfortunate but true, but the nature agenda is still at a very early stage of maturity. It's where carbon was 10 years ago and, and where you see carbon now in 10 years. I mean the the amount of maturity that has been developed in terms of carbon measurement and carbon trading. 53:41 I mean there are now emissions trading schemes and carbon regulation, carbon policy. With the Paris Agreement 10 years ago, no one could argue that almost every country in the world has carbon regulations that have appeared. 53:58 And so that level of maturity in order to get there with nature will take some time. And, and one of the, one of the biggest challenges is, is how do you simplify nature and nature measurement in the way that it can become accessible. 54:18 And I think coming back to your earlier question about, you know, my desire stepping out of 20 years corporate into an entrepreneurial role is that I also want to simplify and make sustainability accessible. 54:35 Two smaller and medium companies. Because you know, these, these major corporations, of course they are the ones that have the biggest impact, but at the same time they have so many resources that you know, the long tail. 54:51 I mean, I think, I think what 80 percent, 70% of the footprint of Europe is SM ES, you know, so, so how do we get SM ES to embed this? That's that's the whole. 55:04 Speaker 1 Challenge we also have at naturalize and, and it's the whole vision, I call it the Ryanair vision, right. So it's, it's about trying to, to democratize the whole sustainability thing and to ensure that you also have solutions for the small players, which that actually are affordable. 55:22 Because sometimes I remember I was whenever I talk to solution providers of solution providers or, or just for a tool and saying, oh, what's your unit, your management tool or your YouTube management tool. And this is a pricing, wait €12,000 a year for your platform. 55:42 They're like, yeah, but it's AI integrated and allows you to, to do it much faster. In fact, who's going to buy it besides a fancy company or, you know, a wealthy company? Because next to us you need to have consultancy, you need to have so many adjacent costs, also internal and FTE that actually takes care of this, which is also an additional cost. 56:01 Like no SMEs can actually bear that cost. This doesn't really help the transition. Where's the additionality in this? Because you are trying to sell that tool to company which already has a tool to manage. You're providing a better solution, maybe, but there's no real additionality in what you do, you know, bringing more people on board. 56:24 You're not teaching them something radically new, right. And and this is for me, a a big issue is that because of the need also to be financially sustainable, they develop tools that the price quite high. And I think the tech industry has also allowed things to be price highly, quite high. 56:41 And you're not bringing to the companies that actually you need to to bring on board. And with AII had loads of hopes, but unfortunately all of the big the, you know, some of the AI tools are there are just super highly priced. Yeah. 56:56 And you're just like, I have 30 employees. Let's say I have 30 employees. I do a printing business. I'm not going to add another €10,000 license on top of the consultancy, on top of maybe the offsetting on the restoration and also need to do that's just going to cost me €50,000 a year. 57:15 Yeah, for things that I could do in an Excel, right. Yeah. I mean you're, you're touching. 57:22 Speaker 2 The, the core of the, of the topic, I'm, I like to see myself as someone that helps to optimize the value chain economics. And because I, I have this economics background and, and lens and, and the, the sustainability lens as well. 57:41 And So what you're saying is, is, is absolutely true, is that how do we simplify and how do we make these sustainability decisions, climate or nature accessible and economically viable? 58:01 Because if they are not economically viable, they won't be scalable. Yeah, absolutely. And so. 58:07 Speaker 1 So. 58:08 Speaker 2 From a perspective of impact, you, you really need to ask yourself these economical questions because if you don't, then it's very simple. Your initiative will remain at the fringe, will remain a nice pilot. I mean, how many fantastic pilots have we seen in the last decade that have, you know, never scaled because they were economically not and the cemeteries of of. 58:32 Speaker 1 Pilots, yeah. And so so the. 58:35 Speaker 2 The whole design of the Regent of our cultural strategy, for example at at McCain where we decided to commit to transition 100% of the potato acres towards the gentive agriculture was designed with that economic lens in mind and, and looking at financial solutions, hybrid financing solutions, etcetera too. 59:01 And, and how can we enable some of our partners to actually benefit from our knowledge so that they can save costs by operational by optimizing their operations and doing energy efficiency. 59:18 And at Unilever, we saved €1 billion in energy costs in the last 10 years while doing or or decarbonization agenda. So when it comes to bringing nature to the table of SM ES I, I think that that question requires real thinking. 59:39 Like what is my narrative that I bring to the table of this company that is super simple and that addresses the pinpoint of economics and, and you, you try to make it very accessible for their level of maturity, their level of resources. 59:59 And, and that requires some time and, and, and of course, because if you come with a, you know, a tool. That is generic is not necessarily tailored to their needs and a narrative that it's not necessarily specific to their needs. 1:00:16 It's going to be more difficult. And I think you mentioned AII think it's going to be even more important to come with tailor made high value intelligence solutions in a world where knowledge is abundant and for free with AI. 1:00:34 And so, so that, that expertise that that in my case, I bring through my 20 years experience that that is indeed quite valuable. I want to go back to. 1:00:48 Speaker 1 The nature bit, because, you know, we we took a tangent. So why do you think it's important for companies to integrate nature? Yeah, I think the first step. 1:00:57 Speaker 2 When it comes to talking about nature in a maybe less mature company, is the value at risk? It's really a risk management, risk mitigation perspective. Is that you, you look at what are the regions from which I source my key materials and ingredients and are there any risk in these specific regions of flooding, natural disaster, whatever nature risk that would put my value at risk. 1:01:33 And this is, this is not theory like if I take McCain as an example, there were certain specific regions where there were increasing droughts and disruptive weather events. And when these weather events happened, that disrupted the potato crops, that disrupted the potato yield, that disrupted the quality of the soil. 1:02:01 And there is a immediate direct correlation between the potato yields, the quality of the soil and the revenue of the farmer and the security of your sourcing of potatoes. If you don't have potatoes, you can't make your French fries. 1:02:17 And so similarly at at Unilever, we did nature risk assessment and identified what were the places where there was the highest risk for supply chain disruption. And so it the, the, the conversations becomes supply chain security and supply chain resilience. 1:02:37 And so that's a financial conversation. So yeah, I would say that was also the entry .10 years ago with carbon and then carbon has evolved from a risk mitigation compliance topic into innovation differentiation topic. 1:02:55 Now what? 1:02:56 Speaker 1 Companies also need to understand, especially in the primary and secondary sector is that it's about risk mitigation. As you say, is 50% of the global GDP is directly or moderately dependent on nature and that infrastructure is collapsing at this very moment. 1:03:13 So really the backbone of the economy is collapsing and that if you want to be able to operate in the future as a business, you need, well, you must understand your relationship with nature because it's, it's crumbling and fortunate. 1:03:31 And we are sawing the branch we sit on and understanding which branch you sit on. What are the risks related to that branch? It's actually quite important. 1:03:41 Personal Journey, Future Hope, and Quick Fire Sustainability Insights Yeah, I, I completely. 1:03:42 Speaker 2 Agree. And then I think if you can put a a euro value on that risk, you get the attention of the the companies. We're coming to an end. 1:03:52 Speaker 1 Of this super, super interesting conversation, you know, we've talked about what you've done, about what you're doing now. I want to do a bit of a rich perspective and to see, well, looking back at, you know, the decisions you've taken and your career, when you think about the impact you've had in the corporate sustainability world, what what do you want to remember what I'm most? 1:04:16 Speaker 2 Proud of is that both at McCain and at Unilever, I really helped to establish formal ambitious targets which are not part of the DNA of the company. 1:04:32 And that makes me super proud when I, when I see, you know, McCain continuing on its journey towards 100% regenerative agriculture hectares. I know I was at the origin of that. It brings a point in which. 1:04:48 Speaker 1 We all want to have an impact and it's something which is working sustainability. It's often because of something that we feel deep inside us, right? It's, it's because we are mission oriented and we want to basically solve the climate crisis, the environmental crisis, etcetera. 1:05:06 And now that you say that you were at the origin of shifting the value chain of McCain towards 100% regenerative. It's a massive impact you can have as an individual, right, to be the catalyst of of this. Then you need to build the systems etcetera to deliver on those targets. 1:05:22 But to be able to transform an idea that you have and that you will have such a massive impact in terms of CO2, in terms of biodiversity, etcetera. And now moving to a small structure where if you can advise a client to already reduce this and they have an impact. 1:05:38 That is 100th of what you were able to do on McCain is is already an achievement or, or how do you go about this? Because you were, you had your hand on a massive lever and now you've basically shortened that lever by, you know, miles and miles. 1:05:59 No, it's a. It's a. 1:06:00 Speaker 2 It's a really good question. I think fundamentally it's a shift of parity is that I realized six months ago, probably it started already a little bit earlier. What matters most to me really is this local community, local presence and the joy and satisfaction of doing something with my time because ultimately time is your most precious resource that I really like. 1:06:33 And, and it's true that in the last 20 years I have been driven by impact and by the desire to make a difference. And I'm very proud of what I have achieved. But at a certain point, if you are making this big global impact, but you will start feeling disconnected from your local community, from your place, and somehow also from the I, I call that the entrepreneurial energy. 1:07:01 But this, this entrepreneurial energy is super powerful. And, and that's the risk of being too long in, in a big structure. I suppose it's the same in a government structure where you know, you, you start having a function there mindset and you I would call it life force. 1:07:24 You know, as as I, I felt at a certain point that I was missing that life force. And now I'm finding that joy of reconnecting with that life force. And it's, it's funny you ask a question because I realized that the impact is not bothering me too much. 1:07:45 Is that what I really enjoy is that right now in the last six months, I'm probably spending 85% of my time on things that I really like and, and doing deep research and analytics and we designed a fantastic program for airline engagement for Brussels Airport in the last six months and, and discovering a new topic and really diving into identifying what matters most and feeling that sense of satisfaction that I actually really know what I'm doing. 1:08:24 You know, I'm, I've, I've been there, I've done that. I, I can really add value in a, in a very short time. That's, that's, that's where I am today. And, and the, the sovereignty of being the leader of your own time. 1:08:39 That's huge because just to give you a, a, an anecdote, but at Unilever at the end, I was having probably 50 to 70 emails per day. I had probably four to seven meetings per day. I had, you know, as I said, reporting meetings probably 4 * a month and then making decks and all that stuff. 1:09:03 And at a certain time, you are not in control of your own time anymore. You're literally like chasing all the time. You're doing things that people add. 1:09:13 Speaker 1 On your To Do List, yeah. And so, so that's that's for. 1:09:16 Speaker 2 Me. A big, big, big change, which I really enjoy. I must say I'm also really enjoying the, the people like the, you know, the likes of Antoine and Eric and yourself and, you know, all this young entrepreneurial energy. I just, I just like to reconnect with that and let's see, let's see where the, the future goes. 1:09:37 But I must say I, I really like the, the ambition as well of, of Antoine and Eric. You know, they are. I've always had an atypical career because it seems when you look at it, that my career has followed a very logical line. 1:09:55 But actually it was always following people. Like at every major step of my career, there was one person generally that that really inspired me and that really asked me somehow to, you know, come and join him for a, a piece of the journey. 1:10:15 And I feel a little beset the same with with Eric and Antoine's. Like it was the, the right people at the right time. And I just have the strong desire to, you know, step a little bit along the way with them. 1:10:30 So we'll see. We'll see where it leads. Any challenges, any things? 1:10:34 Speaker 1 That you didn't expect challenges, I would say is. 1:10:38 Speaker 2 That I'm surprised that the commercial outreach is tougher than I thought. Yeah, I was. I was expecting easier new contracts, they'd say. And I guess I'm part that's part of the discovery of what it is to be an entrepreneur. 1:10:56 Yeah, absolutely. 1:10:58 Speaker 1 But yeah. 1:10:59 Speaker 2 Until now, it's it's still OK, OK, perfect. Yeah, that's very. 1:11:02 Speaker 1 Interesting. Thanks for for sharing this. Now we are developing a our tradition on this podcast is that the last guest leaves a question for the next one. Oh yeah, OK. 1:11:13 Speaker 2 So we do have a. 1:11:13 Speaker 1 Question for you, what makes you hopeful? What makes? 1:11:18 Speaker 2 Me hopeful, that's a really good question because hope is so necessary in this in this current world full of crisis. I think what makes me hopeful is the I see the world of finance and the flow of capital being oriented more and more systematically and structurally towards climate in nature. 1:11:49 And it's still tiny. It's still very tiny. It's actually ridiculously tiny. But it, it grows fast. And for me it's, it's obvious that you will, we will need capitalism. We will need capital to embrace nature if we, if we want to really transition at scale. 1:12:12 And so that, that gives me hope. Yeah. An economist sense. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, then I have. 1:12:20 Speaker 1 A last couple of quick fire round. So it's questions where you have to answer in one word, OK, bananas, potatoes or ice cream. Which supply chain was hardest to green ice cream? 1:12:36 Speaker 2 Consciousness. 1:12:37 Speaker 1 Or compliance, which moves a company faster? Consciousness optimist or realist on 2050 corporate climate targets? Realist. 1:12:48 Speaker 2 That's probably the biggest difference between the last decade and this decade. I I moved from optimist to realism. OK, so it's. 1:12:56 Speaker 1 It's more of a isn't realist a bit of a synonym for pessimism? Yeah, that's that's a very deep. 1:13:04 Speaker 2 Question and I have been pondering about that. I think it's not. I think realism is actually stepping out of the delusion or the imagination and hopes into a can do mentality of operationalizing your ideas. 1:13:25 I, I really believe that in terms of my own journey and my own maturity, I've now come to a point in my life where I attach more important to what you do than what you say. Like, like, show me who you are through your actions. 1:13:43 Don't tell me you're a great, sustainable conscious leaders. Show me through your procurement, through your finances, through your governance and incentives. This, this say do gap today is probably my biggest driver is I, I, I really look for integrity in terms of being aligned between what you say and what you do. 1:14:07 And so in that sense, I think realism is more honest and it's more authentic and it's more truthful. Yeah, that's a really, really good one. Yeah. Big company leverage or start? 1:14:20 Speaker 1 Up speed currently start up. 1:14:22 Speaker 2 Speed for sure are the big F. 1:14:25 Speaker 1 MTGA, Vestige of the past or necessary? Active tomorrow. Necessary. 1:14:32 Speaker 2 Scofri's biggest. 1:14:33 Speaker 1 Challenge data transparency. 1:14:36 Speaker 2 And data sharing. Al Gore or. 1:14:40 Speaker 1 Jean Covici, Al Gore. 1:14:43 Speaker 2 Thanks a lot for. 1:14:44 Speaker 1 Everything you've shared with being so open about your whole career and, and all of the learnings and to, you know, share it with everyone that is going to be listening to, to this episode. Honestly, it's yeah, it's, it's inspiring your journey. 1:14:59 You can see that it's, it's been driven by a desire to do good and a belief that the big actors that are often also portrayed as evils and responsible can actually change and have a massive leverage. 1:15:15 So it is, you know, it's it's really inspiring to see this and that you have said, you know what? I'm going to try to transform. I'm going to bring ambitions and fuck it, let's do it. Yeah. So honestly, thanks for all of the work you've you've done, for everything you've been, you know, you've been doing for the last 25 years and that you keep on doing. 1:15:37 And, and I can't wait to see what the next couple of years and this new chapter of your life is going to bring to you to corporate sustainability and, and well, and nature as well. Thank you very much. It was a really great. 1:15:52 Speaker 2 Pleasure to be here. And I must say I also really enjoyed the the talk and it's, I would say, you know, to maybe young corporate sustainability leaders that just follow your dreams with the right level of realism and you'll make it happen. 1:16:15 I really hope you enjoyed this. 1:16:17 Speaker 1 Episode Once again, I'd like to thank you for being here in a world full of noise. Choosing to spend your time on this conversation means everything. And thank you to the people that sit in this chair, open up and share the fight of their life to protect our planet. 1:16:32 Their stories is why this exists. A special thanks to Margarita Dietos, without whom none of this would reach your ears. If you liked this episode and would like to support us, hit subscribe. Do not miss the next story and tell us who should we bring on next. 1:16:47 And don't forget, we all are nature's diplomats.