4th Year - 480: How to Become Ridiculously Likable with Vanessa Van Edwards

Hello and welcome back. We are continuing our celebration of 10 years of how to be awesome at your job with a smash hit episode 480 how to become ridiculously likable with Vanessa van Edwards. This episode to this day gets very strong downloads even though it came out in August of 2019 and frankly I'm not surprised Vanessa brings the goods and one thing she said that has really stuck with me is the fastest way to get more likable is for you yourself to work on your ability to like faster and more deeply instead of playing it safe like oh well I don't want to like them in the case they don't like me I'm gonna make sure not to put myself out there too much no no the more that we can proactively like others quickly and deeply the more it just comes right back and it's a nice way to live so here we go with episode 480 with Vanessa van Edwards. Welcome to the how to be awesome at your job podcast the show where brilliant professionals share how to sharpen the universal skills required to flourish at work enjoy more career fun wins meaning and money with your host Pete LeCaites. Vanessa van Edwards is a behavioral investigator at her human behavior research lab the science of people she's a professional people watch her speaking researching and cracking the code of interesting behavior hacks for audiences around the world she's a columnist for entrepreneur magazine and the Huffington Post her popular courses on creative live and you to me have over 120,000 enrolled students she's been featured on NPR CNN Forbes USA Today but more importantly she's addicted to sour patch kids airplanes coffee and puppies Vanessa thanks for joining us on how to be awesome at your job. Oh thanks for having me. Well I'm excited to dig into this conversation I've seen you appear in all sorts of places so I know you've got the goods and a lot of great research behind your insights but I want to hear about your experiment where you stared up at nothing. The lookup experiment oh my goodness yeah I love doing street experiments and I was dying to try this one which is a lot of the time I hijab I contact when I talk about body language and one of the kind of interesting things that I contact is we cannot help but look where other people are looking right if they're looking at something it might be interesting which we like or it might be threatening which we need to know so I wanted to test it very simple experiment I stood outside on the street and I looked up at nothing and I counted how many people stopped and looked where I was looking while they walked by and it was almost every single person unless they were on their phone in fact I was looking up and a lovely lady stood next to me for quite a long time and I'm standing there and she's standing there we're both looking up at nothing and I wonder who's gonna break first and she kind of leans over and she says is he gonna jump? I was like oh my goodness I'm so sorry but this is actually a social experiment there's no one up there and she had made up this whole story that she thought that she saw a man in the window and that's where I was looking and it was really it was a great experiment because one it told me that yes we are absolutely very attuned to where people look but second our brain makes up stories for things we can't explain oh that is perfect thank you well it's a juicy takeaway and I'm sure you've identified many such takeaways but I'd love to hear what's perhaps been the most surprising fasting discovery you've made in all your years of investigating people behavior probably learning about personality so I've always been that person who signs up for every personality quiz you know what Harry Potter house or you what Disney character or you I just love personality quizzes and I was really interested to find out that there really is only one personality science that's reliable and that's called the big five intriguing yes and so reliable just in terms of when the same person takes it he shows up again again again the same way yeah and not only that but also that across genders and cultures and races everyone has the same five traits and that's pretty surprising you know because we usually think about cultures shaping our personality and it definitely does but in terms of these five personality traits we can measure everyone on these same five traits and that creates a kind of universality which I like all right well so I want to dig into the particular practicals when it comes to captivating folks you've put a lot of your efforts in in that dimension and so a lot of we start with hearing what are the keys for making a fantastic first impression yeah so first impressions are really important and we kind of know this but we don't exactly know how it works and what's interesting is for my introverts listening so there's actually a common misconception introverts often think that their first impression happens the moment they open their mouth so an introvert will often go into an event and they'll kind of survey the room and then once they decide to approach someone and say hi I'm Vanessa that's their first impression but actually your first impression happens the moment someone first sees you and that's good and bad news so it's bad news because you know we can't always hide in the corner and so we make our first pressure until already it actually happens the moment we walk in the good news is is all you really have to worry about is that grand entrance you know we don't have to once we make the first impression actually stays pretty permanent so one thing you really want to focus on when you're entering into a room is having some kind of purpose or intention so worse than we can do in our first impression happens by accident a lot as I'll say that you're at a networking event you walk into the room and you're not sure what you're gonna do first you should you get a drink should you go to the bathroom you're carrying your coat and your purse and your briefcase and that coffee that you just got at Starbucks and you just need a few minutes to kind of you know calm down for a second your first impression has just been made from everyone who's seeing you right as you walked in the room so what I would rather have you do is think about okay what's the very first thing you want to do when you walk into a room for me it's almost always if I can trying to get something in my hand so that could be a name tag that could be a pen that could be the free pamphlet they're giving out it could be a drink at the bar that has a secret effect of making you very purposeful and that also makes you look more confident it makes you walk more confidently it makes your eye contact more focused but also gives you a kind of purpose when you're mentally walking in if you're recovering awkward person like me it's nice to have a sense of purpose so very first thing you want to do is figure out what are you going to do the moment you walk in the room and so I am confidently purposefully acquiring that name tag or that beverage or placing my items down yeah exactly and that seems like a silly thing but actually what we are looking for in other people we're trying to gauge our first impression is the very first thing we're looking at is someone to threat to me right so luckily in the modern business environment most of the time people are pretty safe and one way that you can make sure that people know that your safe is actually showing your hands so the more items you're carrying the more distracted you are if you're still on your phone you walk into a room and someone can't see your hands it actually is a little bit of a red flag people in their brain when we can't see someone's hand it's as if we can't see their intention you know that cliche about hiding hands or you know he isn't showing me his hand that actually has a lot of real truth when we can't see someone's hand we're just slightly nervous it's like we can't see their intention you could have a weapon you could be a threat yes exactly so from caveman days if we couldn't see someone's hand we wondered are they carrying a rock or a spear are they going to reach out and punch us or they're going to reach out and handshake with us so this other reason why I want you to be purposeful is if you are going in ready to take your first item you're going to be hands free right you're not going to still be on your phone you're not going to be carrying a bunch of items hopefully you can leave them in the car again that actually helps also people see you as friend not foe and the second thing that people are doing is they're trying to gauge are you someone they would like to get to know and we like to get to know people who are purposeful right no one likes to have someone who's just shocked that are wandering and so interestingly even just having something as simple as I'm going to get my name tag or I'm going to get a warm tea because I'm cold even those two things give off an air confidence that's very easy to get okay super so that's the the first impression side of things I think perhaps the most captivating piece of your table of contents for captivate was how do we become ridiculously likable yes so likability is always fascinated me and I'm recovering awkward person that's what I joke about in the book and I was always fascinated by the cool kids at school right like they would walk into the cafeteria and just everyone wanted to look at them and know them and I always wondered what's going on there they weren't necessarily more attractive or smarter or even the best athletes so wondered would they have this quality that was kind of a secret magical charisma dust that's kind of what I always wondered I kind of across the study by a researcher named Van Sloan and he actually studied this he looked at high school students across a variety of high schools looking for patterns of why the popular kids are popular and I have a guess I don't know if you read this study in the book yet but you can guess what made the most popular kids popular my guess is that they were quite interested in other people what they were interested in what they were up to and and they kind of seem genuinely curious to ask follow-up questions and such take curiosity is a very good guess but actually what it was and by the way there was a number of variables in this so it could have been GPA it could have been athleticism it could have been varsity athlete it could have been attractiveness so what he found was very clearly the students who were the most popular actually liked the most other people so when they asked them how many people do you like the most popular their kids actually had the highest number of people that they liked. So what's interesting about this is that it puts you in control of how likable you are. That if you go into interactions and typically we withhold our likability, and what I mean by this is we are so afraid that people won't like us. We're afraid they're gonna judge us or they're not gonna accept us for who we are or that we're too weird or too awkward, right? I can absolutely speak to this, feel this. And so we think, okay, I don't wanna like them first, just in case they don't like me. And actually that is the thing that kills our likability the fastest. When we withhold our likability, when we're assessing for longer than they are, it actually makes us even more unlikeable. And so the greatest way, the fastest way that you can become more likable is actually to work on your own ability to like faster and to like more deeply. And I was so relieved to hear that because I genuinely am a very curious person and curious some of you mentioned your guess. I genuinely assume the best in people. In fact, sometimes I feel that's burned to be in the past, but I realized that carrying that fear or that history with me actually was contributing to a negative spiral, right? The more I was held my liking, the more afraid I was, the less likable I became. - And so then how does one work on one's own capacity to like more and more readily? - So I think this is an absolutely a mental game and the great thing about this is you are in control of it, right? You're not going into room hoping other people like you, you're actually in control of how you do this. So the mental reframe is, if you were about to introduce this person on stage, what would you have to find out about them, about how important they are, how impressive they are to be able to introduce them? That is a nice kind of mental reframe of asking questions that are searching for good. And this is something that I talk about in my TED talk about how I think that we have to assume good in people. And when you assume good, all different kinds of amazing things happen, if you assume that you're going to like someone and you're looking for reasons to like them, you ask completely different questions, especially if you like them with a purpose. So liking them with a purpose means, if I had introduced this person on stage, or if I had introduced this person to my boss in a second, if they wanted a job working next to me, what would I have to find out about them to say that? Or if I knew I was going to about to spend a month with this person alone on a cruise ship, what would I want to know about them or find out about them to like them so that we have a nice month together? That's a very, very different kind of mindset than this person giving me my client, should I pitch this person? Who is this person? It's a very, very different kind of assumption, and I think actually our assumptions can help us. And so within that search, are there any sort of go-to questions you found valuable again and again? - Before I ask answer what works, I would love to answer what I think doesn't work. So I have found that the question, what do you do is one of the worst questions for likeability. And there's a couple reasons for this. One is that it immediately engages what I call a social script. So the moment you ask someone, what do you do? It's like you're saying to them, I'm going to stick within the norms, I'm going to stick within a comfort zone, and I'm going to ask a comfortable question. And of course, you've answered that question a million times before. So your brain immediately clicks onto autopilot and you go into the road, oh well, I'm an author and I research human behavior and what about that? And you actually, what I found, if you listen to people and they answer this question, they actually answer it as if they're apologizing to you or as if they're reading a boring excerpt from their school textbook. Because they've said it so many times, it doesn't even interest them anymore. And the problem is that then it begins this cycle of autopilot that goes like this. So what do you do? Uh-huh, and where are you from? Great, yeah. So great talking to you. I'm going to go get some more wine and have a good night. Right, like it's the same over and over and over again. And so I would challenge you to go on on what do you do diet? I've never asked you that question again. And the second reason why I don't like that question is because sometimes people don't like their answer to that question. If you ask someone what do you do right up front, it means or it implies that you are going to define them by what they do. And so what I found is that if people really love what they do, they will find a way to work it into the conversation without you asking. If someone doesn't mention what they do after 10 to 15 minutes of speaking with them, it means that they not only don't feel it defines them, but they might not even like it. And not knowing that might actually allow you to discover other things about them. So when you go on that, what do you do diet? I would highly recommend other kinds of questions. So you can ask a slight variation of that question, which is still comfortable, which is working on anything exciting these days. So the reason why that one is really nice is it's still comfortable. It's not too crazy. It's not like what's your biggest worry? That can be a little deep. And it allows someone to say, oh, I'm learning to guard it. Or if someone isn't working if they don't have a traditional job, they can say, oh, my daughter's starting kindergarten next month. So it's a way of opening up the conversation to let them talk about something positive. And this is something I really, truly believe in and interacting for good. Is it also assumes good? If you ask someone, are you working on anything exciting recently? It asks their brain to search for anything in their life that's exciting, which is a wonderful experience mentally. If you're thinking about my parking and the weather and the food and this networking event and go to work on that project, have so many emails, have a long to do list. That's just mental trap after mental trap. But if someone invites you to talk about anything you're excited about, that could be a vacationing of coming up, that could be a side hustle, that could be a work project. It's a much more pleasant mental experience. And in that way, I feel like it's giving a gift to the people we're interacting with. I'm thinking now in advance as I'm headed to the podcast movement conference. And I am thinking about-- there's lots of times. I'll just be meeting all these people in different contexts. But if you are interacting positively and searching for something good and exciting, well, then there's all sorts of safe yet also positive openers like, oh, what's the best thing you've seen so far? What are you really looking forward to to going to? Or did you hear anything that's surprising? And then we're all the events. That's kind of what's on our minds. And so they're going to share-- oh, yeah, I heard this really cool speaker who mentioned this. But I had no idea that that even existed. And then there we go. Right. And so by the way, you just did it exactly. Any variation of that question is exactly what you want to do. So maybe it's, are you working on anything exciting recently or coming up? It could also be, did you hear anything exciting from the speaker? It could be, hey, do you have any exciting episodes coming up? It could be, is this an exciting season for you? Whatever it is, you can do a variation of that for wherever you're from. The whole point is to ask someone to look for good. And that totally changes the dynamic fear interaction. And it also helps them give you reasons they are likeable. Lovely. Well, so I also want to get your take on. You mentioned there are seven universal-- you like universal-- facial expressions. I'm curious, what are they and how could they help us? Yeah, this is actually the science that hooked me in the very beginning of my career. So when I read this research, I was absolutely flabbergasted that it wasn't taught in schools. I mean, I was like, how was I not taught this? How does not everyone know this? It's such a applicable, easy science. So the research is done by Dr. Paul Eckman. And Dr. Paul Eckman, I don't know if you've seen the show "Light and Me." It's a great show on Netflix, if anyone wants to go watch it, which is based on his research. And he's a researcher who discovered that facial expressions are universal. And this was a really big surprise in the research community. Used to believe that babies were-- that they learned facial expressions-- that a baby was born and looked at his mother or father's face and then mirrored it or minicked it. But actually, what he found is that congenitally blind babies, babies who've been blind since birth, show the same facial expressions as seeing children at the same time. Meaning there's something innate. There's something coded in our DNA that causes us to make these faces. And so Dr. Eckman discovered seven universal expressions. They are happiness. My favorite, of course, sadness, fear, disgust, contempt, anger, and surprise. When I learn these, whenever I teach this, I teach us in our online course. I warn all my students, this is a blessing and a curse. Once you learn these facial expressions, you will never be able to unlearn them. And it's kind of like someone just switched your television set to HD, high definition. All of a sudden, you're seeing things you've never noticed before. And those can sometimes be uncomfortable truths. But I would always rather live in real truth than ignorant bliss. - And could you contrast for me, disgust versus contempt and say what they look like? - Yeah, I mean, it's a little hard on audio. I have a whole free guide. You're welcome to look out on my website at sciencepeople.com/face. And you can see them in video and in action. But you can try this with me as you're listening. So contempt is a one-sided mouth raise. So if you just raise one side of your mouth, it's the simplest micro expression. It kind of looks like a smirk. So if you try that with me, just one-sided mouth raise. So kind of begin to feel a little better than a little like smug, a little scornful. It's actually a very negative micro expression. Whereas disgust, think of smelling something bad. So crinkle your nose up and flash the upper whites of your teeth. So like, ugh, you got face, you make sure. Lip is pulled up as high as possible. That is the face we make where disgusted by something. And by the way, it's not just smelling something bad or tasting something bad. We make that face if we hear something, we don't like. >> All right, and so then when you have it switched on HD like that, you can suddenly see everyone's reactions to stuff like, "Hey, even your own stuff." Like, what I'm doing disgusts you or is meat is that with contempt? >> Yeah, and I think it's what's really important is I like to think of it as like reading between the lines. So often times I give a couple of examples of my book of scenes or reality television shows where there's a scene that plays. And if you just look at the verbal, it seems like everything's fine. One of my favorite examples I'm obsessed with the Bachelorette, the Bachelor of Bachelorette, I tell my joke with my husband that I watch them for work. That's how I'm able to get the TV from him, of course. And by always, I play a Bachelorette fantasy league and I always win every year because if you look behind the words, you'll see the real emotions there. So in one of the examples I give is she says, "Yeah, I love that you did that. Everything's great. That sounds like it's going to be really fun." But she actually shows a flash of contempt. She shakes her head no, and then she flashes sadness at him. And sure enough, he ends up going home. And on the verbal on the surface, people think, "Oh, yeah, she liked that, but if you actually know what to look for, you can see." He had an opportunity that moment. He had an opportunity to see those emotions and address them. So instead of taking just the words, he could have said, "Let me explain more about it. Let me talk to you at what I do. Are you okay with that? How are you feeling with that?" He had an opportunity to dig deeper and possibly I think address it and then he may be co-stayed. And so when they're always saying, "I feel like Beness and I have a real connection." You can see if they really mean that or if they don't mean that, and that's how you come out on top. Exactly. Exactly. It seems like you've been watching the Bachelorette. Just a little bit. [laughter] It's gotcha. It's bad doses. It go a long way for me. Sure, sure, sure, sure. That's what my husband says. My husband says, "I only watch it in the background." Okay. He's also grabbing a glass of wine with me on Monday night. So okay. [laughter] All right. We're in our final few minutes. So I want to hear a couple of your favorite things. Could you give us a favorite quote to something you find inspiring? Yeah. So I have a quote that I have on my computer. I read it every day and it says, "May anyone who comes into contact with me, whether they hear about me or they see me or they think about me, experience a benefit and happiness?" Yes. Lovely. Thank you. How about a favorite book? Oh, man. I'll say the book that kind of changed my life was Why Men Don't Listen and Why Women Can't Read Maps. It's by Barbara Nalen-Pee's couple. It was the first self-development book I ever read. It was on my mom's nightstand when I was teenager and I looked at it and I wondered why she was reading it and I kind of snuck the book, read it, without her knowing. It was the first self-help book I had ever read. And it was the first time I ever realized that there were scientific differences between the genders and therefore there could be other scientific differences between people. And I remember reading that book and understanding my dad better and understanding my brother better, understanding my crush better and just feeling so empowered with the knowledge. And it made me get into self-help. Maybe you want to write a self-help book. Oh, that's cool. Thank you. And if folks want to learn more, get in touch, where would you point them? But with me, oh, I would love to get in touch. [email protected] is where everything is. We have all my YouTube channels and my research, my YouTube channel, my research. And of course, Captivate is wherever books are sold. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs? Yeah, I would say the most important thing you can do is assume the best. And I don't just mean in others. And that's great to assume that people are likeable, assume that they're interesting, but also assume the best for yourself. There's a very, very powerful scientific principle called the expectancy effect, which is that what you expect is more likely to happen. So if you expect to be good at something, you're more likely to be good at it. If you expect something to go well, it's more likely to then go well. And so I know that it's very common to say no, no expectations, go on with no expectations, or even worse, go on with low expectations. So I don't get disappointed. And I know that we're afraid of being disappointed or disliked. But if you assume that you're going to be liked, and if you assume the best, I'd then actually set you up for greater success. And it's also said like this nice idea of sweet anticipation that sometimes hoping is a great exercise in itself. Well, Vanessa, thanks so much for sharing this good stuff. And I wish you all the best of luck in all the ways you're captivating folks. Thanks so much for having me. Big thanks to Vanessa for sharing her wisdom with us. 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So if you're ready to declutter your closet to the vital few and make some extra money, download the Vintage app for free and start listing. With no seller fees, you keep every dollar that you earn. I really appreciated Vanessa's take on those conversations I have in the small talk zone and how you're so much better off, not saying so what do you do, where you're from, etc. And I just got back from podcast movement, which was such a blast, nearly 3,000 podcasters, assembled in Orlando, good times. And you're going to meet some of them. So while I was chatting with these folks, occasionally we did drift into that territory where a folks started to ask me also what do you do, where you're from. And I noticed immediately, hey, I'm kind of bored. This is not a fun and I'm not enjoying this person's company and the conversation nearly as much if they were to instead ask me things such as, oh, hey, so what was the most interesting thing you learned so far? Or hey, so what are some of your favorite podcasts, or whatever, some of your best episodes ever? You know, it's always like, oh, yeah, I'll tell you about those and I'll smile and be excited to tell you about my recent discoveries, you know, from a session or from someone I just talked to, or some of my favorite moments in podcasting. So yeah, it really does light up the conversation when you search for that good stuff. So thanks, Vanessa, for that good stuff, the show notes, the transcript, the links to items we've referenced are at awesometyourjob.com/f480. If you haven't already, I hope you'll push subscribe. If you do, you'll catch our next guest. It's Drew Tarvan. He's talking about humor at work or more broadly, just how to have more fun at work and have more enjoyable experience. Hope to catch you next time. Peace. Thanks for listening. To get the most out of the show, we recommend two key things. First, check out the extra resources at awesometyourjob.com. 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