#495 – Vikings, Ragnar, Berserkers, Valhalla & the Warriors of the Viking Age

The following is a conversation with Lars Brownworth, a historian and author of many excellent history books including The Seawalls, A History of the Vikings, and The Normans, from Raiders to Kings. He's also the host of two history podcast series, The First, called Twelve Byzantine Rulers, The History of the Byzantine Empire, is one of the first, if not the first ever history podcast launched over 20 years ago in June 2005. His second series, Norman Centuries, explores the remarkable rise of the Normans from Viking Raiders to the rulers of kingdoms stretching from England to Sicily. In this conversation we focus primarily on the Vikings, the seafaring Norse warriors and explorers who over a period of just 300 years reshaped the medieval world and the trajectory of Western civilization as we know it. And now a quick few second mention of the sponsor, check them out in the description or at lexfreedman.com/sponsors. It is in fact the best way to support this podcast. 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Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com/lex. That's all lowercase. Go to Shopify.com/lex to take your business to the next level today. This is a Lexington podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, difference. Here's Lars Brownworth. You're writing and podcasts. Take us from the Vikings to the Normans to Curses to the collapse of the East Roman Empire, also known as the Byzantine Empire. There's a thread I think that connects the Vikings through all of it. So let's start at the beginning. Let's start with the Vikings. So the age of the Vikings was intense and violent as you write about. It was often dated from 793 AD to 1066 AD. It lasted less than three centuries. So the start is often dated to June 8th, 793. What happened on June 8th, 793? In June of 793, a group of Vikings, probably originated from Norway, arrived at the Holy Island of Lindus Farm, which was a monastic community, and they essentially slaughtered everyone burned a couple of buildings and grabbed everything that had any value and left. And I was the first Viking raid that came in fourth. And I do think Linusvarne is a good, a good beginning date because the terror that it brought really signified what was to come from the next two to three centuries. So the word of it has spread like there's a, there's a bunch of accounts like the monk Alquin wrote about this event in a letter to King Ethelred of Nathambria, quote, "It is nearly 350 years that we and our fathers have inhabited this most lovely land. And never before has such terror appeared in Britain as we have now suffered from a pagan race. Nor was it thought that such an inrode from the sea could be made." What made this race of psychological devastating? To this monk and to many of the monks on the island and then to all of Britain? That's a great quote. Alquin was not just a regular scholar. He was Charlene's favorite scholar and he is largely responsible as much as one person can be for the Carolean Jean Renaissance that had done so much to elevate the early medieval world. In fact, the spaces we have, the punctuation we have, spaces between words are likely a result of Alquin's work. He was an extremely literate man. And you can, you can hear the terror creeping into that. And part of that has to do with menastical communities, the church, and what they thought a menastical community was. So the church was viewed as a sacred place. Everyone in Europe, everyone in quotes, has nominally Christian. And the church is an area of safety. It's a literal arc from the troubles of the world that you can flee to. I believe there are even rules in England, for example, that if you had killed someone, you could flee to a church. And the civil authorities were not allowed to enter for up to 40 days. So you could have sanctuary there. And to violate this would have been the worst possible offense you could have given, which is why Thomas the Beckett's murder is so, so horrible in England. And the monks had dedicated themselves to a life of studying the Bible, to copying scriptures, to prayer, to removing themselves literally from the temptations of the world. And so they would seek monasteries that were remote. And the most remote locations you could find were islands in the North Atlantic, because it's just so difficult to get there. So the ocean was considered a place of safety, not sailing on the ocean, but these, these islands were, were literal havens of peace and security and closeness to God. And so the fact of the Vikings hit this place of all places you could hit was the worst, the most terrifying kind of offense against medieval sensibilities. So there's a kind of line that you understand you don't cross, like everybody agrees. There's a kind of thing that there's a social contract that most societies, most civilizations sign. There's a line that we don't cross. Let the scholars do their scholarly work. That's one line. The other line is more kind of from a military perspective, from a mobility perspective, you just assume the sea is not a place from which a threat could come, especially the North. So your conception of the world is shattered by one, the brutality that can come to that the sea can bring a threat. And three, that you don't give a damn about any of the lines that we as a society, as a Christian society have established. That's exactly right. I mean, even Al-Qun, I think he writes a little later on that the dead were left as dung in the streets. So he's describing dead monks as literal dung in the streets. And who would do this to men of God in human monsters? So who were they? The Vikings coming from the North. How did they think of the violence that they were doing? And that's a very good question because, and it brings up a central problem of looking at the Vikings, which is the story is almost always told from somebody else's perspective, largely from the pens of those they're attacking. So they're not going to come across well. They're often portrayed as demonic and inhuman. The Vikings themselves, those as much as we can piece together from archaeology, from the stories they wrote later. But that was another problem. They're written out at the runes, mostly used for spells, name your sword, things like that, curse someone, but it wasn't really useful for writing long poetry or literature. So the only Norse literature we have comes at the end of the age when they had adopted the Latin alphabet. So it's, you can almost never see the Vikings in their own words as they saw themselves. But we can piece certain things together. Most importantly, Viking was not their day job. They were, they were mostly merchants and farmers, mostly farmers who lived in little bays called Vicks in Old Norse, which is probably where we get the word Viking, Viking from. One other note about how hard it is to tease apart what's happening here is the, the English and the Frankish and the Irish writers all called them Danes, no matter where they came from. They didn't stop to ask, "Now excuse me, are you from Norway?" Or, "So they're all called Danes or Pagans, Heathen or Northmen." So this is not very helpful in figuring out where they came from. The language was interchangeable. Old Norse was spoken in all three of those Scandinavian countries. But living in the North so far up near the Arctic Circle is, that's at the very limit of where technology at the time could allow humans to survive. And that kind of, that kind of harsh climate bred, I think, very hard people. Mercy was not a quality they seemed to favor value. There's a very famous story of a Swedish Viking putting a sword in the crib of his newborn son and saying, "May you have nothing in this life or what you can gain with this?" I can't imagine doing that. You know, if any of my children are putting a gun in the crib or you know, I'd be carted away. But I think that kind of underscores the kind of violent life that was, you could expect as a Viking. I mean, strength was valued more than anything else. So understanding the world is harsh and that strength is the way you, you must face that world. So when you have those people, especially the ones that self-select to get on a boat, to face the ocean, well, all the uncertainty, that results in the kind of brutality that we got to see. I think so. I mean, the way they would build their ships, they're clinker-built. So they are overlaid like planks overlang. So they were undect as well. And so they'd have tents. So can you imagine crossing the Atlantic, the Northern Atlantic, you know, with these huge waves splashing over with an inch of oak between you and the ocean? I mean, the amount of bravery that must have taken to undergo is standing. Plus, they didn't have a compass. They navigated by, where's the sun, where are the stars? Where are their birds in the sky? Do I see a different color of water? Do I see leaves floating? I mean, it's terrible. For traveling 2,000 miles, it's not great. So it's kind of an intrepidness to them that I think is part of the reason why they're so fascinating to us in our sanitized, more or less, sanitized world. That this incredible courage to do this and some horror at what they did on the other end when they arrived. But you'll we'll talk a little bit more about their religion, but they do not view the Christian God in particularly flattering terms. I mean, to them, he's a weak God who won't protect his adherence. And they can just come in and plunder as they, I mean, they'll, one Viking famously says, on land, I'm a Christian, when I'm on the sea, I worship Thor. I was very much the kind of pragmatic take that the Vikings had. Yeah, there are gods and they have many, but Odin and Thor are pretty hardcore gods. So everything, just their whole philosophy on life is pretty, pretty hardcore, probably some of the toughest humans to have ever lived. I think so. Yeah, I mean, their gods are horrifying. They're polytheistic. There was no universally accepted head God. I think Marvel has also led people astray in this. Well, we'll talk more about a religion, but since you mentioned the boats, what do we understand about the technology that we're using? Can you just speak a little bit more to this one inch of oak idea? So these were these long ships that were also able to travel on rivers. So they're not like, what is structurally do we know about the boats that allow them to be so flexible in terms of where they can travel? Yeah, I mean, and this was the Vikings great secret. And I think it's underappreciated. They built different types of ships, obviously, for different purposes. But the thing that blows my mind is that they built these ships that could cross an ocean, cross the Atlantic ocean. And at the same time when they had a draft of less than two feet, so they could sail up rivers that were two feet deep. And if they came to in, you know, a block or something, 20 men could pick up the ship and port it around. They were incredibly portable and and their speed. The speed was the most frightening thing about the Vikings. So these are the same kind of ship that that they sailed the ocean on. - Yeah, I mean, it's insane. So that pretty sufficiently robust to handle the ocean and sufficiently mobile to travel on rivers and do so really fast. So you mentioned speed. That seems to be from a military perspective, the great advantage of Vikings, because they can move much faster than the land armies can. So not just the element of surprise, which they often had, but the element of speed was the thing they gave them was extreme advantage against the British armies. - That was the big one. So an English army, if it had access to a good Roman road that was well maintained, which frankly, there weren't tons of them, but they could average something like 10 to 15 miles per day on a good day if they didn't have a large baggage, trained to slow them down. If you had a cavalry unit that didn't have to travel with the army, they could average about 20 miles a day. The Viking longships could average 70 to 120 miles a day. So they're just moving in super fast motion. They could hit a place, raid it, drag off whoever they wanted and get away before you could get your army there. That's just absolutely terrifying. - What do you think it felt like for Alquin and the monks to see the Viking ships and the horizon? Do you ever think about trying to put yourself in the mind of those folks and imagining, in that time, you don't have a full map of the world, right? And the oceans are not mapped and you have a hazy conception of the world. And so out of the darkness from the ocean where you thought nothing can come, comes this terrifying brutal force. What do you think that felt like? - Honestly, I think it's the end of the world. And I don't think that's, I don't think they were wrong to think that. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle says the night before Lindus Farn, the monks saw sheets of lightning in the sky in the shape of dragons. And this obviously meant to foreshadow the dragon ships coming up. I can't imagine the horror. I would shake my faith, I'm sure, to have these giant men jumping out of their ships with swords raised in your, what do you have, cross? - Were the Vikings aware of the fear that they had caused? So did they use fears to kind of weapon? Or was this just the side consequence of their actions? Or did they understand and use it? Like the Mongols, Stringes, Kahnemongos used the fear in the terror on purpose to increase the chance that they wouldn't have to avoid fights, basically. - Yeah, the Vikings absolutely used terror. It was a main weapon in their arsenal. They would attack specifically on high holy days, like Easter, Christmas, because they knew there'd be higher value targets there with richer clothing, richer offerings. And there'd be a lot of money available. So they were rather sophisticated, which I think is something also that they don't get much credit for. It's like they were just dumb roots attacking and just destroying. But they were, it was very suspicious. They would show up, this is what I mean, when I say Viking wasn't their day jobs. They would be traders in a, say an English port, kind of looking around. They'd get everyone's schedule, then they would sail away and come back as Vikings and they knew exactly where to go. They knew where all the money was held. They knew where all the churches were, went to attack. They knew the entire Christian calendar. They knew when someone's baptism was, when someone's confirmation. I mean, they were aware of all of this. And they would, they would definitely attack to increase terror. One of the signs of the intelligence of the Vikings is that the Viking age is so short. So what happens is these explorers and these rough men who do the raids, they very quickly are good at conquering and then start state building or conquering and then establishing trade routes and stop being the quote unquote Vikings. So basically they just, they conquer and then they start doing the usual, build the institutions, start a state and now they're normal, kind of nation civilization kind of thing. So this kind of force that is the conquering raid, violent, intense explorers is like a short lasting thing. A couple of generations are most. Yeah, that's right. I mean, the Vikings were ultimately a pragmatic people who, if it worked, they would keep it. Which is frustrating because they disappear so quickly because of that. With very little trace and with very little trace. With that very little writing. That's right. Yeah, no time for writing it down. Yes, not doing that. Yeah. Why were monasteries such good targets for these early raids? This is where I imagine myself as a Viking and one of my ancestors, perhaps. And Sally and, I mean, they must have thought they had won the lottery. He got this rich, these rich buildings, rich gold everywhere, decorated books, jewels, all guarded by old men who don't know how to fight. Do you just take it? I mean, we should make clear that the monasteries had, they were used as almost like storage for gold. Yeah. And this goes all the way back to the Roman Empire where you know, think of, for example, the Emperor Augustus when he was writing his will. He put it in the temple of the Vestal Virgins as well as Mark Antony and Cleopatra. They'd all done that because there's this additional protection of religion and this taboo against violating that. And the same thing happened when Europe was Christianized. Monasteries were played, I mean, rich people, their faith had to be an active faith. They couldn't just say their prayers and go to church on Sunday. They would have to do something to publicly show that they were worthy of forgiveness or whatever. And so they would donate huge sums to the church. I think, by the time of the French Revolution, which is obviously way in the future, the church is the largest single landowner in France. I mean, the monasteries where these monasteries filled with monks who had taken vows of poverty where some of the richest places in Europe just kind of a strange tycohotomy here. - And then we should also say that the Vikings, many of them, pragmatic people, so a lot of them would eventually then convert to Christianity. So you get, you integrate yourself into the system. - That's right. - In some sense, religion creates this backbone of a society that stabilizes it. And then you create a bunch of rules about behavior, how you're supposed to behave. One of the rules is you don't mess with the church buildings and the religious institutions. And therefore they become great storage places for gold. - That's right. - And then the Vikings here just test the system. - Yeah. - I mean, it's the fortune of geography for them and the fortune of their way of life to be able to read, to become an extremely rich and therefore this, it both spreads the terror across England and the message across Scandinavia that there's a lot of riches to be had. And so the race, that's why there's an explosion of raids. - That's right. And I think it's not a coincidence that it happens when it does. I mean, you have both. So there's two main theories about why the Viking Age starts. The first, Will Durant puts it, I think the best, he says, "The fertility of the Viking women outstripped the fertility of the Viking land." It's basically overpopulation. And then they're searching for food. And then the second is there's this technological breakthrough with the keel and maybe pressure put on Charlemagne's consolidation and a little worries like that. I don't see why both can't be true. But I do, I do also think you're up, like Charlemagne puts together this vast empire that, you know, fairly approximates the Western Roman Empire. If you squint, it looks like the Western Roman Empire, he's calling himself the new Roman Emperor. This will eventually mutate into the Holy Roman Empire. But it's very much this idea that it's back. The Roman Empire is back. He's crowned on Christmas day in the year 800 and the empire is back. Unfortunately, it was sprawling. It hadn't been thought through. There was the communication was terrible. You just couldn't do it. And so it was wealthy and weak. And that kind of attracts predators. By the time the Vikings crash into it, you also have the added bonus for them of really feckless rulers. - And we should say, go to Prophecy to hear that Charlemagne, also known as Charles the Great, is the Frankish king who became Emperor and 800 and ruled much of the Western and Central Europe in the late eighth and early ninth centuries. And there's a theory that the Viking Age was also a reaction to the South expanding North as you're talking about. You tell the story of Charlemagne weeping because he foresaw the evil. His descendants would suffer. Did the Franks accidentally wake the sleeping giant by crushing the Saxons or moving the buffer zone between them and the Vikings? - I'm sure that had something to do with it. But yeah, as power was consolidated throughout, specifically central Europe. It did put a little pressure on the areas of Denmark and those are the areas that first kind of erupt down toward Norway and Denmark contribute most of the early Vikings that hit the Franks. And the Frankish Empire is the most wealthy state in Europe. It's poured money into religious houses for the reasons you outlined and all sitting there easy pickings for people who just developed the keel. And so they, the word of the raids, sent terrorists through the England and through Europe. How much of the raids were reconnaissance and how much was it just raids and how much it was preparing for greater scale? That's a really good question. I think a lot of the early raids are probing raids. Let's see what's there. Definitely when they're, when Ragnar Lothbrok, for example, Saks Paris, 845, that definitely results in waves of Viking attacks throughout the eight sixties trying to copy that. And he actually is the template which everyone wants to follow. And so that provokes large-scale invasions. And they hit England. They kind of switch off when France is pretty much exhausted. They switch over to England. Then when England is pretty much conquered, they switch back to France. So I think a lot of these are just probing raids at first, but they're proof of concept. And then they come in force. For example, there was one king in England. His name was Ethored the Unready, which is a pretty fun, funny pun on his name. But he paid in one year 7.5 million silver pennies to the Vikings to get them to go away, which is a bit like someone's mugging you so you pay them more money so they go away. That's not going to work. It's not going to work, but it will bring more muggers. So he paid the equivalent of 50 adult elephants, 48,000 pounds of silver to get the muggers to go away. And it's unsurprising that throughout the course of his reign, he paid something like 20 tons of gold and silver, which he had to tax his people for. Yeah, the Vikings are not the kind of people that that would make go away. Nope. Yeah, there was just come back in force. Yeah. They trust silver to do the work of swords. You mentioned Ragnar Lothbrok. Who was Ragnar Lothbrok? Did he actually exist? Some people believe he's a composite from several real ninth century Viking leaders versus an actual singular human. Yeah, I'm a romantic. I would like to believe he existed. I think probably he's a compilation of a lot of different. There probably is a seed of truth there. There probably was someone named Ragnar. The last name is a little suspicious. Lothbrok means Harry Breaches. He supposedly had magic pants that would prevent him from being poisoned by dragons or snakes. Maybe a clue. We're dealing with myth here. But he is really the template for Vikings. You want to figure out what the Vikings wanted. Who's their success story? It's Ragnar Lothbrok. He's born Norway, Denmark, countries argue over that. Maybe Sweden. Some sagas say he's an upsala. He is penniless. When he is in his late teens or early 20s, he decides to invade, sail up the sun. There is a well-known city on the sun. He raids it. Supposedly he takes the hinge of one of the gates from Paris to prove that he's been there. The Frankish King. I love the Frankish kings because their citizens give them names based on how much they hate them. You have Charles the Great. Charles the Great, Charles the Great, Charles the Great, is followed by Louis the Pius. That's probably the best one. Louis the Pius is followed by Charles the Fat, who is followed by Charles the Bald, who is followed by Charles the Simple or Stupid. So you can trust the names. You can trust. You can trust. You can trust. Yeah, exactly. So Charles the Great and what I'd like to acknowledge is one of the great leaders of the Frankish Empire, aka Charlemagne. What else do we know about him? There's a Goenoproplexity, Ragnars portrayed as a Scandinavian warlord, often called a Danish or Swedish king. Like you were mentioned, active in the ninth century during the height to the Viking raids. And then descriptions of the raids and the exploits. Medieval traditions link Ragnar to famous raids and the Frankish realms, especially the attack on Paris in 845, where he repeatedly sails up the sun and extorts a huge ransom from King Charles the Bald. He's also associated with repeated attacks on Anglo-Saxon, England, embodying the archetypal Viking, Chieftain, Charismatic, Brutal and focused on wealth, fame and honor in battle. So those are the ideals of the Vikings, charisma, brutality and focusing on wealth, fame and honor, especially honor and battle. Then also, what does he do with it? Right? He gets about 7,000 pounds of silver from Charles the Bald, which essentially destroys Charles the Bald's kingship. But he goes back home to Denmark and the Danish king doesn't want him around because he's too powerful, he's too rich, he's a ringgiver, you know, think Beowulf here, right? He's got this large personal army which wants to join him for it, but he can do, you know, they'll follow him and he is a threat. And so he is kind of is encouraged to go else or he ends up raiding England for something like 15 years. And then there's a probably the most famous bit of the story is he, he shipwrecked and King Ayela of Northumberland captures him and decides to kill him by throwing him into a pit with vipers. They throw him in this and the snakes are biting him but he's got his hairy breaches on. So it's not working. So he's singing a hymn to Odin and he gets pulled out and he's asked why he's not dying and he explains rather foolishly that he has these hairy breaches. So they take the pants off and throw them back and his last words are when the bore bleeds the piglets come. But what she means, my son's, he had 12 of them and they will avenge me and they do, they lead the great heathen army to invade and eventually conquer England. Ayela, fun fact, not so fun for him, is the supposedly was captured by the son of Ragnar, his name is Ivar the Boneless which is somewhat terrifying of a name and he is, he's the first person that a blood eagle was performed on. What's the blood eagle? It's when they remove the lungs, they, while you're still alive, they cut you open and remove the lungs and put the lungs on your back and then when you try to breathe they flutter like wings. So it's called like an eagle. It's called the blood eagle. That is disgusting. Yes. This is what Ayela deserves, according to you know, Bjorn Ironside and Ivar the Boneless, the sons of Ragnar. Like this is what they get. This is the piglets coming. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One last thing about Ragnar is his wife is also an important part. He had something like 12 sons, the accounts differ and probably three marriages but his most famous wife was named Oslog and she fell in love with him. He was on a ship who's passing through so kind of a glamorous sea king right with his, he's living the dream and she sees him and she wants to be married to him and he says no. He says because he wants a clever wife and so he says if you can accomplish these three things you can marry me. So tomorrow I'll be here tonight and then tomorrow I want you to come to my ship. I want you to have no clothes on but not be naked. I want you to have not eaten a meal but not have fasted and I want you to come without a companion but not alone. And so she shows up with a dog. She doesn't have a companion but she's not alone. She's taken a bite out of an onion so she's eaten. She hasn't fasted but she hasn't had a meal. And then she has very long hair and so she's using the hair to cover herself. So she shows a close. Oh she shows a close. But she's. But closed. Right. So this is kind of the cleverness that would be expected of a Viking woman. So there are well matched. They're like the ideal couple and then they have 12 kids. 12 sons, not just 12 kids, 12 sons. And many of them end up. Many of them end up almost as famous as their father. Iver the boneless, Bjorn Ironside, many others. These sons later appears leaders of major Viking forces in England, particularly the so-called Great Heathen Army that invades in 865. And they are historical. They are. I mean, there's note that these were the names of Vikings who attacked and conquered England. They end up attacking Islamic Spain. They go all over Europe. Well, for them, it sounds like glory and battles are really important. That's right. Yeah. So it's not even, it's just part of the culture. It's part of the honor culture. Men die, but names live forever. Is a small aside since Ragnar is the star of the Vikings TV series. I don't know if you've got any chance to watch any of it. Is there any accuracy to it? I think it's well done. My one quibble, Ragnar's brother is Rolo in the show, right? They weren't brothers. In fact, by some accounts, they were born 80 years apart. But as a storytelling device, I applaud that. Yeah, they basically take all the main Vikings and put them all together. Yeah. I get it. It's confusing. Honestly, in writing a book about it, the hardest part was coming up with an original scheme. What's the overarching thing that links them together? Well, there's certainly an overarching thing, but we don't have information about it. The problem is we get to see just slivers of information from the raids. There might be just this rich history that we know nothing about. Where did this warrior culture come from? What was the evolution of these ideas of honor and battle? I mean, maybe it's being overly romantic, but you can imagine the ideals of battle from the Roman Empire, from the Roman Republic and the early Imperial period coming up north to Scandinavia. And we just know very little traces about that. Yeah. Scandinavia is from a Roman author. They thought it was an island. They thought Scandinavia was an island with one tribe, the Scandia tribe, but it's close enough. And who was the, what wasn't this great heathen army that invaded England in 865? What can we say about that? Well, there's this famous scene in the Viking siege of Paris in 845, which is really the Europeans' introduction, or Europe as a whole, to a Viking army, not just a raid, and then what it could do. And the king, the emperor Charles, said, "Find out what they want, how much do I have to pay to get them to leave?" And so his ambassador went to a Viking and said, "Who is your king?" And the Viking looked and didn't understand. And he said, "We have no king. We are all kings." So they're very decentralized, tough. They only valued leaders who could prove that they had won. They could give out the rings. So flat organization, very meritocratic. If you're good at what you do, you demonstrate that skill and battle. That means you get to have maybe a leadership position. And the moment you're no longer effective, you don't get to have this leadership position. We're all kings. This gangster, throughout history, the Mongols, Jenkins College famous for this meritocracy. That's right. That's one of the components of an extremely effective military forces meritocracy is prized. Same is true for who gets through rule, how do you determine the succession? If you're just giving it to your oldest son, that's going to be a problem. Yeah. I couldn't not agree more. With meritocracy and civil war, because it tends to the only way you can find out, like Alexander the Great, who does your empire belong to? To the strongest. Like guarantees the civil war. At least with giving it to your older son, you know who's going to be there's an element of stability there. Although you may end up with a colligula. More likely than not, you're going to end up with a colligula. I would say human nature being what it is. It's always converges to the asshole and the asshole holds power. The crazy asshole. So yeah, great, heathen army, 65. So the great heathen army, there were warbands that each followed this guy and this guy. I'm going to sit you down in this room. I'm going to tell you my plan. You're going to listen. You're going to push back. I'm going to push back and just have this kind of creative discussion and come up with the plan we all agree on. So he used to be relatively small Viking groups. The great heathen army is this large coalition of Viking groups without a real leader that was able to somehow stabilize enough to have something like governance. Basically, there seems to be a very rapid evolution of a Viking in every part of the world they touch. We go explore, raid, conquer, establish state and trade routes and always maintaining a grand ambition but no longer doing the violence and always being sufficiently pro-glammatic and flexible. You can accept conversion to Christianity, for example, if it's useful. And accept the culture, accept the language. That's why they integrate and the thing that we think of as Viking dissipates and disappears pretty quickly. I think the best example of this is France. The Vikings, we'll talk about this more probably with Rollo, but the Viking settle in France and the Northman's Duchy, which is shortened to Normandy. Within a generation, Rollo, whose real name is Rolf Eric, is Rolf. He names his son William. That's not a Viking name. And within a generation, the language is gone. The Viking names are gone. The worship of Odin is as far as we can tell, gone. And the Normans are building churches and marrying into the local aristocracy. Their essentially their Viking-ness is gone except for one thing. They're like incredible vitality. The Normans essentially conquer kingdoms at both ends of Europe, Sicily and England, and found two of the foremost powerful states in medieval Europe. Yes, so the ambition is there. Is there vitality is there. The methods have changed. Yeah, and they change rapidly. Yes. It's fascinating. So you have a book. You have a podcast series on the Normans. So let's talk about Rollo. Who was Rollo? The famous Viking war leader who became the first ruler of Normandy, northern France. Well, first I should say, as someone of Norwegian descent, I'm going to fall down on the Norwegian side of the argument here because Norway and Denmark almost came to blows over which was the birthplace of Rollo. But the consensus seems to be Norway, not just biased. So the only glimpse we get of Rollo as a young man is he was very tall. So he's called "Frallf Walker," "Frallf Granger," because he was so tall he couldn't ride the little Viking ponies. So he had to walk everywhere. But kind of poor, probably raised on stories of Ragnar and the other Viking lords. He may have participated in some of the earlier, like the 860 raids that the Vikings did on Paris or the Senn. Then he eventually ends up plundering what will become the Norman coast. And in the year 9/11, he makes a treaty. The true St. Clair's are apt with the Frankish king Charles the Simple, which is not stupid. It's more like straight forward. There's no guile in how he talks. And Charles makes a really interesting deal with Rollo, which is, "Why don't you settle here, integrate into the local aristocracy, and defend the French coast against the Vikings?" Which I was like putting a burglar in charge of security or so. I don't know. But it works. It works. And Rollo, by the time he makes that deal, he's probably in his mid fifties to mid sixties. It's unclear when he was born. But the point is he's lived the Viking life. He's got something like 20 or 30. If you add up all the sagas, they say they gave him this many coins or whatever. He has probably 20 or 30 tons of silver that he has acquired and then probably given out to whatever. So, yeah. So he's done the fold. He's done the raid. And then the conquering and then the king says, "Can you settle here? Can I give you legitimacy?" So he does the diplomacy of a treaty. Yeah. Then he does the good state craft and state building and then becomes, I mean, European. Yeah. In one life, you go through the fold journey. Yeah. Yeah. And then his son, William Longsword, succeeded him and. It gets assassinated. But he does enlarge Normie. So basically, every ruler after Rollo enlarges Normandy until it essentially becomes more powerful than the king by far. There's a wonderful scene when Rollo signs the treaty. He becomes a legelord of the French king. And there's this great scene because Rollo has to bend down and kiss the foot of the King. So, Rolo is probably, you know, he's a Norwegian Viking. He's probably, I don't know, six foot. Charles is little Frank. He's probably 5'10". He's like, Rolo's towering over him. And he's, there's a, both armies are watching. There's a bunch of people who have come in from the countryside. They've heard something's going on and this important part of this feudal ceremony, if it's to kiss your Lord's foot to, you know, be in a subservient role. And Rolo says, "I'm going to do that." So, he turns to one of his guards and says, "You kiss the foot." And the guard's probably taller than he is. So, he bends down and he picks the King's foot up to his mouth, which Charles goes falling on the back. I mean, I can't think of a better example of the relationship between the Norman dukes and the French kings. I mean, it's perfect. It's perfect. I got to love the Vikings. Yeah. So, as you've covered, and maybe you could speak to that a bit more for a long time to come, Normans have influence on Europe and beyond. Yeah, it's hard to overstate Normandy's impact on Europe in the Middle Ages. Of course, they'll go on to Congraingland as well. But Rolo, when he signs the treaty, it's an ambiguous treaty. He's given a title which is rather ambiguous. He's not a duke. And he's not clear. He's not an Earl. He's not a duke. He's just subservient to the King, which means Normandy is not a duchy. It's not a principality. It's kind of this ambiguous. No one really knows what it is. And so, Rolo being a good Viking and his descendants, being good Vikings, despite becoming French, they just call themselves duke. They essentially seize whatever power they want. There's one Norman duke. I think he's the grandson of Rolo. He's kidnapped by the French king when he's 14. He escapes the captivity and kidnaps the King. As a 14 year, I mean, these guys are crazy. How far geographically and in time does the influence of the Normans and Normandy go? So what should we understand about the impact of Normans in history? I'm a romantic. So when I read history, I usually end up rooting for the losers. I want Harold Godwin sent a beat, William LeConqueror. I want Hector to beat a killee's. Never works. No matter how many times I read it. But I was always interested in the Normans, because of the Norman conquest of England. I have a twin brother and he asked me, we're taking a walk and he asked me, how did Europe, because I was reading about the Dark Ages at the time, the early Middle Ages, how did Europe, this kind of backwards place become the dominant force in the world? And I started thinking about that. And my answer really is the Normans. The Normans, that's the great change between Europe as a backwards inward looking place and Europe as a kind of confident outward looking place. And that change happens under the Normans. I mean, the Normans is not a coincidence that they lead the charge in the first crusade. They create the state of England. If you look at England before the Vikings arrive, there are sevens, the haptarchists, there are seven kingdoms in England and the Vikings destroyed all but one. Only Wessex is preserved and they've conquered about half of Wessex. And there's a young king, what's he going to do? But that king is Alfred the Great and he conquers the rest. And then his grandson, Ethelstann, is the first man called King of England, King of all angles. And then they do the same thing, almost wherever they go. They help create modern France by ripping apart Charlemagne's empire, which was unwieldy. They look good on paper but it was unwieldy. It was replaced by his leaner, meaner compact thing. They figured out how to deal with the Vikings by essentially building fortified bridges, changes to their army and so forth. The Vikings, I like to call a creative destruction. By destroying the things they destroyed, they cleared the ground for something stronger to grow. That's brilliant. The creative destruction engine, the creative Europe was the Normans and the Vikings. And then you also have another book that talks about the Byzantine Empire. So you have the creative destruction that resulted in Europe that Europe led to this Western quote unquote civilization that we think of now. And the thing that protected Europe for centuries was the existence of the Byzantine Empire, the East Roman Empire because of all the threats that came towards Europe. This strong stable empire that is the Byzantine empire protected the forces from everything they came from the East. They were a buffer. They were a buffer, giving Europe this kind of vital time to develop the way it needs to develop. It's interesting to think that the world as we see now was a result of a sequence of quite lucky geographical and leadership decisions in history. I mean, it really does pivot on a few points of geography and a few special leaders. Yeah, that conquer. Yeah, had Constantine chosen his site a little less wisely. The world is going to be very different. Yes, the Constantine is the guy who moved the capital of the empire from Rome to Constantineople. Thereby giving a lot more focus to the East, by protecting Europe from the gigantic threats that are loomed in the East. That's right. In the Islamic invasions of the 7th century, they couldn't get past that choke point of Constantine. It's not supposed to take the long way across Africa. By the time they get to Spain and conquer Spain and into the Battle of Tor, Charles Martel is able to stop them and they're massively overextended. It's a very different story if they can come in through the Black Sea. All the times the East Roman Empire almost died from all the invasions. All of those invaders would have just conquered the entirety of Europe. Yeah, I don't think they would have meant much resistance. Yeah. So, rewinding back, what was the religion? The religious beliefs, the gods, that the Vikings believed, that we've mentioned a little bit of Thorn, Odin. How did they see this world in the universe? The Viking gods are, they've been sanitized, but they're quite terrifying. At the bait, their basic conception of the universe is an eternal struggle between chaos and order, which chaos will eventually win. So, I think the best view of cosmologies of concentric circles with Utgard is the outer realm and that's where the chaos is. Those are the, that's where the frost giants are. All the monsters that seek to destroy. The gods represent order and stability and the monsters represent chaos. And it's an eternal war between the two of them. So, there are different categories of gods depending on which circle you come from. The gods don't all like each other. They're not. Sometimes they engage in wars. Some of the most famous gods, the Norse gods, Loki or Freya come from outside the Aesir, the main gods. So, it was kind of a fluid, it was kind of a fluid thing. There's more a way to understand the world. I think so. Yeah. The thunder is thorifying the Aesir giants and that's what that is. Going to Proplexity. Vikings followed a polytheistic, rich, old, heavy religion centered on a pantheon of gods and spirits with no single holy book or unified church and practices varied a lot by region and family. And so, the major gods were Odin and Thor and Freya. Odin was his domain, was war, kingship, wisdom, death. Thor was protection, thunder, fertility, Freya was love, magic, battle, dead. Typical worshipers for Odin were chieftains and elite warriors and poets. Typical worshipers for Thor were farmers and quote ordinary people and typical worshipers, a Freya or women, magic, practitioners and lovers. Yeah. I've heard it. I think you can break it down saying, Odin was the elite. He's kind of a more aristocratic, right? He's got a poetry. You need to read, et cetera. Only the elite would know how to do that. A farmer wouldn't really care about that. Where in Thor is a more earthy god. You want the waves to be less prey to Thor. I find Odin, I think most disturbing. He's the god of madness and the god of poetry, which I guess those are related. But in battle, I mean the berserkers, probably the most famous type of Viking warriors were considered to be Odin's chosen warriors. They would show no pain and they just run at the enemy and attack with their nails and their teeth. Even if they could have their arms hacked off they would still keep going like And they would attack other Vikings. They were just, they were berserk. That's where we get the word from. - I would understand the mindset, at least to that. I mean, it wasn't religious in nature. There's not this kind of ideology. It's just the way of life and then a prized honor and intensity in battle. - Yeah, I mean, one of Odin's names is the Raven Feeder. I mean, by creating corpses, which Raven's feet on, you're doing the work of Odin and the Viking view of the afterlife was unique. There weren't really punishments, not really for doing bad things, unless you did something really bad. Then you ended up as basically an evil spirit haunting your grave. But if you were brave, then you got taken to the house of the dead, which was Valhalla, and you were resurrected every day you would fight, and whatever wounds you got would be magically healed that night. And the next morning you'd get up and do it against you, essentially practicing for a Ragnarok, the final battle, which you would lose. So I'm not sure it seems rather pessimistic. - The battle is what, I mean, it sounds like losing is not a thing. The battle itself is what matters. So Valhalla is a place where you fight a battle every day. - Unlimited food, there's like a bore or whatever. It's an unlimited wine. And you can die as much as you want. - You want to be born again. - To give you the idea. - To be the idea of the highest. I guess if there's such a thing as heaven in this kind of construction of the universe, this is heaven. - Heaven is the highest form. This is the highest place you can go to is Valhalla. It's fight every day, eat as much as you want, drink as much as you want, die and are reborn the next day. And it's forever preparing yourself for the final battle of Ragnarok. So this is where, this is the end of the world, this is the cataclysm. - That's right. Odin's gonna die, Thor will die. He'll get killed by one of Loki's children, the Midgard Serpent. Odin will be devoured by a wolf, the sun and moon, which are being chased by monsters, by giants will be caught and swallowed by the giants plunging the world into eternal darkness. Essentially all the gods will die, and darkness and chaos will then ensue. And then at the very end, this is mostly from a guy named Snorri Stirlisson, who was living right at the end of the Viking Age and writing this and he was, I believe a Christian. So I think we're fusing things here. So then there would be a new Earth and a new heaven and a new God who's all powerful. - Yeah, if you think of religion as a kind of technology, a social technology that stabilizes or helps guide the evolution of a society, it's interesting to see what the Vikings came up with. And you ever think from a history, the grand view of history, how effective these different technologies of religion have been? - Yeah, I think I was certainly thinking of the Viking rituals. Hospitality is very important in a northern climate where food is scarce, winters are long and harsh. And if you don't share what your hearth with someone knocking on your door, then someone else might not share it with you and you could be facing death. So in this case, hospitality becomes a core belief. And the idea was that Odin would travel in Cognito, knocking on people's doors and he would remember if you let him in or not and if you were hospitable, he would bless you and if you were inhospitable, he would murder you and I think these rituals are obviously intended for, how do we survive this winter? - How do we effectively spread the message that hospitality is pretty good thing and is character in the stick of religion? If you do a good thing, you'll be rewarded, you do a bad thing, you'll be punished and then different religions plays a different ways of communicating that. - Yeah, I mean, I think also religion gives you, it gives you a worldview, right? It gives you a morality and these are core parts of society. And the beautiful thing about religion is it interplays with human nature and it guides humans but then of course, human nature and humans project themselves onto the religion, sometimes they use that religion. It's two accomplished goals and a pragmatic sense and a political sense and geopolitical sense and a military sense and a social sense. And so there's that dance of how religion invigorates and guides the peoples and then how the peoples use the religion to guide the direction of the world. - Yeah. - And that's certainly the history of Christianity has a big role to play in the history of Europe, the history of the Byzantine Empire and that part of the world. And it was an incredibly effective religion. Once Cossentine converted, it spread extremely quickly, well, it's really speaking across a couple of centuries. Just the lingara, the Viking views of the world and the afterlife. So we mentioned Valhalla. There's the Norns, which are the three spirits that represent the past, the present, the necessity. They spin the faiths of all men and gods at the roots of Igg Drizzle. - Yeah, Igg Drizzle. - Igg Drizzle, yeah. So there's a notion of like determinism and fate to the Viking life. And there's Valhalla, there's Hell, Niflaheim. - Yeah. - This was a destination for the vast majority of people. So if you don't make it to Valhalla, this is where you go. Unless you're a real bad person and there's some punishment for the truly wicked. - And we should point out that Hell, spelled with one L, was a daughter of Loki and was not the same as the Hell, the two L's. - Hell was the two L's. Very different. - It's more like burgatory type of situation. So it's the house of the house of the underworld. - A colorless twilight, not necessarily a place of punishment, but simply the inevitable end for most. Unless you head up in Valhalla, which means you're a great warrior dying in battle. - It reminds me of the Greek view of the afterlife, right? Where you essentially get amnesia and forget who you are unless someone makes a sacrifice and says your name and only then you'll remember it. So your destiny is ultimately to just become gray and fade away. So you might as well, you might as well be brave, you might as well run it that spear. - So that was the engine of the warrior culture that was quarter their society. - I think probably. - I had to ask about Vikings as explorers. They were truly one of the greatest explorers in history. What can you say to, what is it in their spirit that motivated them? I mean, they sailed, they reached North America 500 years before Columbus, they sailed obviously to England, Spain, Italy, Russia, North Africa, the Middle East, Paris. And I'm just showing here a map of the ocean roots and the river systems that they connected to and sailed. What do you think drove them to explore the unknown? - This bog goes my mind. This map here just messes with me because they didn't have a compass. I mean, can you imagine shoving off from some fjord in Norway, West, that's your only West. And there was a Viking named Nadod. He's actually the first Norseman to reach Iceland, though it was a total accident. But here's the mind blowing part. He decides to land and explore. And he gets off and he sees two humans. They're monks from Ireland. They got there in a canoe. Look at Ireland, look at Iceland. That's even more impressive. They got in a canoe with skin boat. And they just went north because they were trying to get away from the world. They found Iceland. And in a very excellent move on their part, they ran away as soon as the Vikings arrived, which is pretty smart. - I don't know if you know if there's this video of the Dereinche Penguin, with Warner Herzog documentary, where Warner Herzog is like, overdubbing, explaining the thinking of the Penguin. But the Penguin leaves the tribe and it just goes out into the mountains. I have to show you this video. This is my favorite video of all time. There's this low-key documentary where they're talking about penguins. And then there's one penguin that leaves. - Come out. - (laughs) - Leaves the tribe and just goes towards the mountains. And as Warner Herzog says, "Towards certain death." It always reminds me of this kind of Viking spirit or the monk spirit. There's something one human or a small group of humans just decide to go. - Just go. - And not look back. - Are there sea monsters out there, maybe? - Maybe. - Is there any land? Are we gonna fall off the edge of the earth, maybe? And just as Warner Herzog says, you know, there's certain death. Now he doesn't romanticizing. He says the penguin is just deranged and crazy. But look, the penguin did look back briefly. Right. He did think about this. So this there's two ways, there's multiple ways, but you just highlighted two ways to explore. One is because you're this hardcore dude that just is looking to raid and just goes and goes and just you have the resilience and the will to keep going. And then there's the monks that just want to leave. Yeah. Just go toward there. They want to leave far away. So they could be closer to God. They could be closer to themselves and away from sin. Yeah. You know, there's this poem by Tennyson Ulysses, my favorite poem. I think it captures the Viking spirit. The last line of it is to strive to seek to find and not to yield. I think that's very much like the Viking. You know, my purpose holds to sail beyond the bass of all the western stars until I die. We may die, but I'm going to do this. I'm not going to yield. That spirit is one of my favorite aspects of human beings. I think that's why the Vikings remain so popular today. You know, we name our satellites, football teams, you know, our cruise ships. There's this like, there's this romantic hook of a people who did not yield. Yeah. They embodied the part, the flame that burns in all of us that we admire most about human beings. Is that like unyielding focus on going out there of taking the leap into the unknown into the scary and never stop it. It's not too late to seek a new world. I have to ask you about speaking of a new world America. And Lee Farrickson, but first quick bathroom break if it's okay. Quick 30 second. Thank you to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to Lex Freeman dot com slash sponsors. We got Lairdyn for measuring AI adoption in your business, better help for mental health, elements for electrolytes, fin for customer service AI agents, Shopify for selling stuff online and proplexity for curiosity driven knowledge exploration. Choose wise and my friends. And now back to my conversation with Lars Brownworth. All right, we're back. Let's talk about this incredible fact of the Vikings that Lee Farrickson, who was a Viking explorer, was the first European to reach North America around the year 1000 five centuries before Columbus reached North America. Tell the story of his journey. What do we know about him? So let's begin with his dad. His dad's name is Eric the Red, who was forced to flee Norway when he was probably 10 years old because his dad had killed some people. It's kind of hilarious in the in the saga. It says for a few killings. Okay. I guess that's a thing. So he went to Iceland and he got a farm in Iceland, which was already starting to become overpopulated. They had cut down all the trees. There were some climate problems of deforestation and farms just blowing away. The population was essentially beginning to crash in Iceland. And he got into a fight with his neighbor and ended up killing his neighbor. And so he used exiles from Iceland, who's exiled from the places fathered been exiled from. So runs in the family's whole outlaw thing. What also ran in the family apparently was this streak, this courageous streak. And he had heard that there had been people. So the Norwegian Vikings, they were aiming for England and they hit the Hebrides, which are these kind of treeless islands above Scotland. And they found they were good for refueling because they'd get pick up water or whatever and then on your way to Scotland to raid. And then a Viking had missed the Hebrides and discovered Iceland. And then another Viking had aimed for Iceland, missed and hit Greenland. And a little fun fact about Greenland. It is both north, south, east and west of Iceland. So it's any direct. You're going to hit Greenland. So Greenland is hard to miss. It's hard to miss, which is not to take away anything from the extraordinary danger, the certain death of going further west. But there was this, by this time there was this idea that you know enough people had become famous by sailing west into the unknown and discovering things that I think there was a general idea of there's more out there to the west. And so he had talked to someone who had seen Greenland and reported that there was this good land further west. And so he hired the ship's crew of that Viking. So it's kind of the deck was loaded. And he went to Greenland where he was able to settle two different colonies. One was called the western settlement, the west and one was called the eastern settlement and essentially the extreme south. And that was essentially the edges of where Viking technology could be. A cool factoid is that the Vikings practice husbandry raised animals. And obviously this is not an option in Greenland, although they couldn't have known it at the time, but they brought plants with them. So and then they were able to trade with the native Inuit for walrus, blubber and things like that. And they made a go of it. But what's obvious, you know, anyone who's seeing Greenland, there's no trees. It's almost impossible to survive by practicing husbandry. It is impossible to survive as it turns out, just practicing husbandry. And by this point, I think this extraordinary Viking pragmatism is beginning to be played out because one of the reasons the Greenland experiment fails ultimately in 300 years is they fail to adapt. It's clearly they should they should focus more on fishing on other sources than just raising pigs and cows, but also we hit the the limit of the the Viking adaptability, which they have demonstrated throughout the world. Yeah, yeah, interesting. So Eric the Red is this he makes his name by exploring and he does in fact, once he discovers Greenland, he calls it green, he says there's so many salmon in the rivers of in the fjords that you can just scoop them out with your hands. You don't even have to fish. Was this real is a lie? So he's probably he's probably is this story true that he called the green just so he can attract it is the greatest real estate scam in history. Yeah, okay, genius. I mean, destruct to this day. Yeah, it's the most misname place in the world. Yeah, but but in the Europe of the time, even in Iceland, like the dream was to have land. I mean land equaled wealth in Europe. And here he says there's enough land for the taking like anyone who wants, which is true. It's the largest island on earth. I mean, it's unusable, but it should be called Iceland glacier land or something. But it worked. He took 500 men with him from Iceland. It's got to be a significant chunk of the population, but there's enough people kind of land hungry. There's no more room in Iceland. It's too restrictive. We're going to go further west. So he takes 25 ships and then 14 make it. Which is pretty good. And then those those 14 ships with their 300 or so people start the western colony. And then where it gets back to Norway, but Norway's 2000 miles away, 2000 plus miles away. So it's you know, contact. They're having to get resupplied. Obviously, then the first winter all their cattle die. It's not a great start for people who practice husbandry. So they've got to get resupplied from Norway. But you know, the chances of making it to Norway and back are actually not that great if you're sailing without a compass. You're just kind of hoping. But they do it. They do it. And the colony survive until the 1400s where they just go silent. So let's talk about Eric. The Red Sun, Lee Farrickson. How does the journey continue west? So Eric is getting a little older. The Greenland settlements are becoming filled up. Eric is happy where he is. He's been kicked out of enough places. He's made his home here. And this is where he wants to be. But his son, they're running out of resources. There's no wood. You know, there's limited food, et cetera, et cetera. And so his son proposes going west because he's heard stories that there are other lands. So another Viking had gotten lost, aimed for Greenland and missed, and had seen something. He said he saw clouds and mountains and there's land there. And then he had turned around and lay, again, did the same thing. He hired the man's crew. He asked his dad to come. His dad wouldn't. He went with his half-sister, Fredis, who was a whole other story by herself. And a bunch of other colonists and they went and they landed in a place. He called it Vinland because he found things that he could ferment. So of course, the Vikings, they made wine or a wine like alcohol. So lay Farrickson is he's landed. He doesn't know this, but he's landed on a new continent with essentially inexhaustible stores of food and Timber and everything he needs is the perfect place. Unfortunately for him is also inhabited By some natives probably the Algonquin tribe. He calls them The Scraling which is just Norse for Screachers because he can't understand their language They just yell at them and attack immediately They stay there for Three years and then give up and go back home So ultimately it and then really don't tell anyone about they just keep it in their northern sagas Why do you think they left? What do you think they didn't stick on longer? I think there are a number of things working against them Of course, I would like to believe there's an alternate history where the Vikings Successfully make it down, you know, maybe down to Maryland or something and there's an alternate history of the US and Canada here But I think there's a number of things working against them The first is they stubbornly refuse to give up husbandry so they're trying to make this work Lanzo meadows. I think is where they were in Newfoundland. It doesn't work At the climate's too cold. It's not the grasses aren't appropriate You know, it's just not gonna work and they do not adapt number one number two They're two thousand plus miles away from Norway and getting resupplied and although they are extremely good sailors and Explorers and traders. I think this is a little too far And then thirdly is the native resistance. It's just too Incessant there they're outnumbered, you know millions to one and The Algonquin do not want them there. It's clear and They're not gonna stop attacking It's so fascinating because they really didn't understand The full scale of the land they've encountered right? That's right. That's right. I mean had they known had he known What he had found that there's more south maybe their intuition was like there's not It's just all northern land. It's void of resources. We can't do the whole husbandry thing Yeah, but you would think they could go down the coast. I mean they could have gotten enough people from Norway, you know or Iceland or whatever you know a sizable enough colony and build some kind of defenses to fight off the Incessant attacks, then I think that's a difference Turks. There's certainly the resources are all there Or just keeps staying on the water keep going down the coast. Yeah, not necessarily get out until until you get further south It is fascinating to think about that alternate history where they would have discovered America and settled there This is 500 years before Columbus. There's First of all they could have done a lot of this stuff. We Think about the European nations doing Including brutality towards the natives but there could have been a coexistence also and Some of the diseases that come with them could have done the damage that they did 500 years later, but now It would have Stabilized the populations to where in the Europeans the full of the Spanish and so on will come The natives would be more ready so they would the Europe would then encounter a sizable population of the Viking descendants and the natives to where the the two could hold on to the land and Bring a different kind of civilization there Because ultimately Europe with the European ways the west of the western civilization expanded out into North America But there could be this whole Scandinavian vibe. Yeah, that would have taken over Just a hair's breath. My favorite museum in New York is called the Cloisters It's part of the Met and in the Cloisters. There's an ivory cross And the ivory cross has been richly carved with Christian scenes It was carved in England, but it's made of walrus ivory and they got it from the New World And the Viking you know Viking traders says it represents, you know the great arc of the northern trade So it's walrus ivory from the New World via Norway to England to New York. It's a great symbol of that trade This whole just period of Thousands of years of exploration That we no longer can do so it's kind of geographic exploration of the world It's fascinating it takes true courage it takes true wander Of the kind of exploration we could do now is more in the scientific realm and the realm of ideas And then maybe in terms of geography out into space and exploring the universe Yeah, I think the closest analog is probably Mars, right? I mean what would it take for you to be like all right I'm gonna leave on a go to Mars you're you're never coming back There's nothing there as far as you know, you know all the accoutrements of civilization are not there. It's that's the kind of courage you would have taken Yeah, but there's on top of that with Greenland with Iceland with Finland There's just so much uncertainty like literally what's beyond this hill So with Mars everything is mapped See so it's really you you understand the full harshness of the situation what you're gonna face It's just more it's uh that's more akin to like I am running an ultra marathon. I understand the challenge I think more can would be like traveling out into Like the or cloud like beyond the solar system. What's scarier? The known or the unknown? I think the deeply the human nature pulls us towards the unknown That's true. Yeah. All right, speak it or which go into the east So like we mentioned the Vikings really went all over and one of the directions they went That ended up touching the Byzantine Empire and Constantine Opal is they went to east. What can we say about the 8th century journey east in the river networks that The Vikings did Swedish Vikings the varangians as they began to explore the river systems of Russia So this was the most surprising part for me when I was First thinking about writing the book and you know discovering where the the Vikings went I never in a million years it would have never occurred to me that the Vikings went east But a good way to think of this is the Vikings Launched themselves in whatever direction their country is facing so Sweden goes to the east Denmark goes down toward Germany and Norway goes England and the new world So there's a Viking named Rurek who goes east and manages to Set up an encampment on this lake Called Staria Latiga Which is a launch pad to both the Volga river the Nipur river Yeah, and these are major river systems in the east that take you all the way down to the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea Because the Vikings you know such seaborne people They can sail up rivers. This allows them access to the caliphates in the east and to the Byzantine Empire where they Being Vikings immediately decide to tack the city The Byzantines essentially set the Sea of Mamara outside of Constantinople on fire And burn up all the Viking ships. So then the Vikings decide Okay, we can't we can't take Constantinople so we might as well join them if we can't beat them and they end up as Probably the most famous guard in Byzantine history the verangian guard verangian means the men of the oath And the men who swore sworn and oath this is Kind of an analog of the Prytorian guard in ancient Rome They were famously loyal to the throne, but not necessarily to the person sitting on the throne There are major power players They last of the great Byzantine emperors basil the Volga slayer Forms them in the late 900s And they're they're there with the history all the way up until the end of it. In fact many of our famous Vikings herald herdrada Serve in the ranking guard if you go to Constantinople today inside the church of the isofia On the second floor there's a marble Balcony and on the railings you can find Norse runes that are carved in by wranging guards who were bored during a Preschool along sermon in a language they didn't understand, but they had to stand there So that's a fascinating thing which is the verangian guard guarding the emperor of the east Roman Empire is made up initially for quite a bit of time of Vikings yeah Yeah, I mean I mean like speaking of pragmatic they just integrate into everything yeah now eventually the verangian guard Became less and less Viking over time. Yeah, but this whole you fast forwarded the story we should mention that Star Eladuga in 753 AD's when was established opening the connection to the two rivers and they began trading on the rivers and establishing More stable states along the rivers including the Kievan Rus in a 62882 Where the verangian so it's the Swedish Vikings They took Novgorod they took Kiev and they established the Kievan Rus there and that is what led to The connection to the Byzantine Empire where they started to again the Vikings went from being Vikings They go through this process of trading and then establishing a state, now they're doing treaties of different kinds, and they're also waging or trying to wage war, and going all the way to Constantinople, and having a deep admiration for Constantinople enough to then begin to dream of sacking Constantinople. Yeah, I mean, once they're alerted to the wealth that's there, you know, Vikings being Vikings, they show up. Can you speak to the Greek fire? So this was 941 and 944 when they tried, and then Greek fire was this technology developed by the Romans. We don't really know what it was, Greek fire. It was the form of napalm, obviously. We have the ingredients, what made it up, napthun, oil, and things like that, but it was this very flammable material that would ignite on contact. So the Byzantines would fill it into clay pots and then throw the clay pots as soon as it's exposed to oxygen, it would start burning. They also had siphons, they would carry like flames drawers on their back, and they would just spray it at enemies. And the real devious thing about it is that if you launch this clay pot at a ship and the material, you know, pooled across the wood and then dripped off into the water, being oil, it would float on top of the water and continue to burn so that if you were a sailor and you jumped off the ship because it's on fire and jumped into this oil patch that's on fire, you'd be coated with it and you'd burn underneath the water. It was a horrible way to go. So this was a state secret, closely guarded secret, so closely guarded, it remains a mystery to this day of what exactly it was. - Which is incredible, right? - Yeah, but it, in the 944 attack on Constantinople, I mean, the Vikings are coming on their ships, they brought these ships from Sweden. That's crazy, they're in the Black Sea, they've sailed and they kind of swarm at the Byzantines, the Byzantines launch a bunch of decrepital ships toward them that have Greek fire on them and that turns the tide. But the Byzantine Emperor so appreciates the strength of these horrifying Vikings that he forms a bodyguard of them. And hence we get just a few years later, again, tried to sack Constantinople and then join them. - To join them? - The Rangengarge in 98, who basil second, Vladimir, they make Rangengarge into an institution and then the water mouth spreads that this is a real career path for the Viking is to join the guard. - Yeah, that's right. 'Cause not only do you get paid very, you can compensate it very well, obviously, for defending the Emperor particularly if you do a good job, but you also have opportunities 'cause the Emperor sends you, let's go attack this tribe and you get to keep whatever you take. So there's tremendous amounts of war profiteering you can accomplish. And the other great river system of the Volga, that brings you to the great enemy of the Byzantines, the Abbasid Caliphate, and they had a lot of trading links with the North. So you get things like fur and amber, lots of slaves from the Islamic world going up. You even have in a Swedish coin hoard. There is a Buddha that's been found. I mean, it's Sweden. - Yeah. So these networks of trade, it means how incredible are they with geography? Right, you can transform your understanding of land from the geography of the land to the geography of the river networks because the way they raid and then invade and then conquer England is to the rivers. It's an incredibly different way of seeing the world. - Yeah. And if you look at the kingdoms, the Vikings created, I'm thinking particularly of like Eric Bloodaxe in New York. He's controlling parts of Ireland, parts of Scotland, Wales, England. Like there's no, that doesn't make sense unless you're a Viking. That also added tremendously to the terror that the Vikings brought because, I mean, you should probably be a little careful with absolute statements here, but I can't think of a major European city that's not on a river, which means now with the Vikings, because they could travel up rivers, that's shallow rivers and then carry their boats whenever they were, everything was on the table now, even hundreds of miles inland is on the table. - At an incredible speed, much faster than the land armies is terrifying. - It's terrifying. - It's a living in a constant state of fear. - We've talked about this transition in several different contexts, but you've written about this, it's really interesting. Is the Vikings like Ragnar going from this mode of sea kings with no territory to the mode of land kings? Do you have somebody like Harold Boututh, 10th century Viking King of Denmark? You go from being these grand explorers, they're free to being state builders. Was this always inevitable for all of these Vikings? Can we speak to the different translations, maybe in England? - I think in one way, it's inevitable. There are so many examples of destroyers who just wreck civilizations. The builders are much more rare. So I think it's one of the reasons I think Augustus is a much more interesting person than Julius Caesar's. Augustus was a builder, and I like to see that. I like to see, not just can you pull down, but can you build up? Just to take Ireland, for example, Dublin, Limerick, almost every major city in Ireland was founded by the Vikings. So I don't think it's just a given, that would have happened. I think there's something about the Vikings, and it's probably tied to their pragmatism, their like this pragmatic streak of we're gonna use whatever, oh, this system of King works, this taxation system's pretty good, let's keep it. You know, this doesn't work, let's ditch it. - Yeah, I mean, they went from destroyer to builder, very naturally and very quickly. - Yeah, there's a natural process from conquering to building, but it does take town, and it does take a certain something. - Can we talk about one of the great Vikings, canoeed the great? - I love canoeed. I love canoeed. I think he never, he doesn't get his due. He's one of those unsung heroes, I think of the Viking world. He had a reputation, he was called the Emperor of the North. He had this massive, you know, England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and he's just tying it all together. He was an extremely effective English King. I believe he introduced the penny, sadly, discontinued, but I- - Oh, wait, really? - Yeah, discontinued. - discontinued, and all of your making? - Penny's discontinued. - 2025 is the last. - Last penny. - Oh no. Everything's gonna go up by five. So going to perplexity, canoeed the great, was an early 11th century Danish ruler who became king of England, Denmark, and Norway, creating what historians call the North Sea Empire. He's often regarded as one of the most effective kings in Anglo-Saxon English history, for stabilizing the realm after decades of Viking warfare. Again, an example of a destroyer becoming stable. - Yeah. He was extremely strong, he was effective. You know, England went from being the whipping boy of the Vikings to controlling the Vikings. - And ended up on a pilgrimage to Rome. - Went to Rome? - Yeah. - He, although a Viking war leader, canoeed rule, was a Christian king. Patronizing churches and monasteries and going on pilgrimage to Rome in 1027, where he attended the Holy Roman Emperor's coronation. - Yes, he was recognized by his contemporaries as something special, right? You don't get invited to those coronations if you're a nobody. But the most famous story of canoeed, that I know, my favorite story, is being in positions of power, being famous. A lot of people sucking up to you. A lot of people telling you whatever they think you want to hear. And so people are telling you all the time how wonderful he is. And he takes his whole court down to the seashore and orders his courteers to carry him on his throne into the water. And then he commands the seas to stop the waves, to stop and to retreat. And they don't, obviously. And everyone thinks he's little. But his point is that you're all saying how great I am. I have no control. I mean, this is active humility to kind of embarrass. I have no control over anything. Stop telling me I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread. - I like the leaders. And there's a few of them in history that rise to the very top. And they're still able to maintain humility. Marcus Aurelius is in the Roman Empire, is an example that reading meditations is also just an insight into the mind of a man who's to himself. because meditation is not supposed to be a work that's published. It's just a diet. to himself is deeply humbled. And one of the most powerful humans in history is still humble. The two most famous Stoics. One was an emperor and one was a slave. So in the other part of the world, you've written a book and you did a legendary podcast series on the Byzantine Empire, the East Roman Empire, aka the Roman Empire. Well, let me actually just, this is a tangent of a tangent, and ask you about the podcast. So you've created what is widely considered to be the first history podcast. This is before Dan Carlin, before all the amazing podcast, we all know and love. So the podcast series, of course, is the 12 Byzantine rulers, the history of the Byzantine Empire. What motivated you to explore this medium of podcast thing? What in the early, it's mostly in 2005, something like this. It was '05, yeah. And people should go listen to it because it's still, I mean, it's like we're talking about ancient times or something because it is now a long time ago, but it's still an incredibly good podcast. It's a great podcast series. Thank you. At the time, there's a series that I would get at the library called The Great Courses. I don't know if you're familiar with it. Yes. There was one particular professor, his name was Bob Breyer, and he was an Egyptologist, lives on Long Island where I'm from. And he, every is a massive, it's like 24 hours of lectures about the entire history of Egypt. And it was fascinating because he was such a good storyteller. And I was reading, as a kid, I could never figure out if I liked the medieval period better, or the Roman period better, and I was constantly going back and forth. And I stumbled across a book which referred to the medieval Roman Empire. And it was a bit like discovering your favorite TV show had 12 extra seasons you didn't know about. And they were just as good. So it really was a labor of love. I couldn't, I would not shut up about the Byzantine Empire. So my older brother, we would go on walks together and I would be like, and then Justinian, you know, and he saw me, so I have no idea what you're talking about. I have no idea, like, I need a framework. Give me a framework for this. So I went home and I recorded myself giving a framework which turned out to be episode one. But I think I said it, I did it in a British accent, a really bad British accent, I was just messing around. And I gave him the, luckily I did it in my regular voice, as well as this goofy accent. And I gave it to him. And then I forgot about it. And that summer, I was on a dig in Petra, excavating the temple of the winged lions, which was like a dream come true for me. And I get this email from my brother. And he said, oh, I just submitted it as a podcast. So he had to tell me what that was. But I was going for, to the extent that I put thought into it, I was going for kind of a longer form lecture great course series on the Byzantines. And then a bunch of people started emailing me saying, when's episode two coming out? Oh, okay. So I guess there has to be an episode two. And then the thing kind of snowballed from there. I had no idea what I was doing. Your brother, by the way, is Super Tech Sally. He is. It wouldn't have happened without Anders. So Anders, thank you. But like looking back now, what do you think? What do you think about that medium? Why do you think it connected so much to people? Because you've also written several amazing books. One of them is on the Byzantine Empire. Just looking back and retrospective kind of way. Because from there, I blew up the entire industry of incredible other history podcasts and podcasts in general. Yeah. I've been, I've been, that's a great question. I've been trying to think for the past 20 years. Like why it's such a, such a niche field, right? Why would people be interested in it? I think number one, it's a great story. And people are people. And we haven't changed much, which is one of the reasons why it's accessible. Because it's a very, these are people you could meet today. But I think podcasting in general, because there's such a low bar to get in. Or there was at the time, and there was nobody else. So just by virtue of being first, you know, it attracted attention. Whatever its merits. Being first was the strongest one. Which is say you also did another series on the Normans who no longer had the benefit of being first and was still not really that's very good. So, I appreciate that. But I think podcasting in a way democratizes learning. You know, it unlocked the potential of all these armchair historians. I'm one of them who's like, hey, this is really cool. I'm passionate about this. You know, anything that allows you to tap into your passion, you know, I think it's going to be, is going to be great. And the Byzantine Empire is an interesting one. I don't understand maybe, and then you articulated this well. But it doesn't get like the love that it maybe deserves in history. I think the framing of the book you wrote on the topic, it's the reason we have Western civilization, as we know, or European based Western civilization. And it sounds because you have, let's see, maybe you can articulate the different ways they connected the thread, but one of them is they preserve the knowledge. When the West was, when Europe was going through a dark period, they protected Europe in all those ways. And then eventually they jumpstart the Renaissance, because people are, Constantinople is going to fall. It's inevitable. It's surrounded by hostile powers. And so they start migrating to Italy. Just at the moment, Italy is receptive to its greco-roin past. Greek had died out in the West. Actually as early as the time of Justinian, in the 500s, 560s, they needed, if you wanted to travel between the Eastern Western parts of the empire, you needed, you know, guidebooks with helpful Latin or Greek phrases. So Latin had died out in the East and Greek had died out in the West by the 14th century. So you needed Byzantine teachers to be able to read Plato and Aristotle. The book also emphasizes, as we've mentioned, a kind of great man view of history, celebrating people like Constantin and Justinian. Or Justinian, who would be your number one top emperor in the history of the East Roman Empire? That's a good question. I mean, romantically, it's got to be Justinian. He dreams big. He dreams big. He doesn't always get there, but he dreams big. He dreamed and tried to reconquer the Western Roman Empire. I mean, he was a lot of wars of conquest. Yeah, and built the. Built the isofia. I mean, I think this is, you know, we're interested in the Egyptians because they built the pyramids. We're not interested in the pyramids because they were built by the Egyptians. Right? It's like, what is the great thing that your society has created? I think the isofia is that for the Byzantine Empire. I mean, to go in it today is still the closest you can come to the 5th century. You know, and it pealed back the imperial splendor of what it must have been like. You know, you can still see it. You can smell it. You can feel it. Like, it's there. There's actually a really nice video on YouTube of you going from. I think 50 to 60 years ago, I don't know. It seems like that. It does seem like that. Yeah. We actually were kicked out. I remember that when I went. What did you do? Well, you know, as you know, they're very strict as to guides. They want to promote the local economy. So you have to have a local guide. You can't go in there and look like you're being a tour guide without a license. 15 different organizations. So we went there early, the hour it opened. And we had the entire cathedral to ourselves. And so we went around and my brothers holding this camera and I'm, you know, goofily pointing things out. And one of the guards noticed us. And, you know, we had to remove ourselves from the building. And so one of the things, I mean, Justin was a critical person in this too. He overhauled the Roman law. The legal system, the law. First of all, the Roman Empire in general, the East Roman Empire propagated it. They believed in the law. They held on to the law. That's right. And that's many of the legal ideas we take for granted is grounded in everything developing the Roman Empire and stabilizing the Roman Empire. So they carried that flag forward. Yeah. I mean, outside of Great Britain, all European legal systems are based on, ultimately based on the code of Justinian. And then weirdly, because of the French connections, the state of Louisiana, you actually, if you want to be a lawyer, you have to pass a different bar in Louisiana than in everywhere else in the US. Why do you think the Western Roman Empire and then the Eastern Roman Empire collapsed? Just look at that. Looking at the grand picture of the history, the Roman Empire is 2200 years starting from the kingdom to the Republic, to the Imperial period, to the East Roman Empire period. Why do societies rise and fall? That's a really interesting question, and there are probably as many answers as there are different kingdoms. But just the Roman Empire might take on it, is that the collapse really starts at the end of the reign of Basil II. So the years 1025, Basil is the last monarch of the Macedonian dynasty, which had seen the Empire become the most powerful state in the Mediterranean, much more powerful and advanced than its Muslim or Christian neighbors. He had expanded the Empire, essentially as large as it was going to be after Justinian. It was wealthy. It was glittering. It was educated. I mean, courtiers had to memorize the works of Plato by heart. The emperor, one of his favorite activities, was to go and he would begin a quote and you would have to finish it. But you didn't know where he would begin and what he was thinking that day. This is what amused him. So they incredibly literate. I mean, inside Constantinople itself, the literacy rate was close to 100, which is crazy. But when he died, the court, which had been magnificent court bureaucracy, which had been running the empire, which is vital to the workings of the empire, they convinced themselves that they could run the empire. They didn't actually need the emperor. And so they specifically selected weak rulers. And then that led directly to the disastrous battle of Man's Occurrent in 1071, where the Turks enter the story, defeat, destroy the Roman army under Romanist Iagini. He was attempting to break free of the bureaucratic constraints. And then Anatolia gets flooded by these nomadic warriors and the Byzantine gets pushed out of them. So once they've lost the heartland, they've lost their source of troops. They've lost their source of taxation. They've lost their source of food at this point. It's impossible to recover. And the crusades are in attempt. The first crusade anyway is an attempt by the Eastern Emperor Alexius to recover Asia Minor, more than Jerusalem. He wants to recover Asia Minor and obviously doesn't work out. So I think at that point, it's on a trajectory that can only end in collapse. And I think that's, you can see that same kind of thing in the Viking world that we talked about, this stultifying bureaucratic inflexibility. It's fine with the growing threats from all directions. Growing threats from all directions, maybe your own success is beginning to be a problem. And you can't adapt as quickly. You're not as lean and mean anymore. There's too many traditions, too many, too much the weight of history breaks you. You should have mentioned Macedonia in period, the dynasty words, the Eastern Roman Empire flourish once again, but like they've gone to so many periods like that. And they wanted that. That is true. What the reason is, but you can really trace the Roman spirit, the Roman state, the core of whatever that is through that 2200 year period. There's a real connection, the thread that connects all of it. So that there's lessons, that's why we do need to study the Byzantine Empire for lessons of what makes society the last. Yeah. Everything collapses, but like that one lasted longer. It's easy to last when you're hidden away somewhere, but they're in the middle of everything. Everybody wanted what they had. Yeah, they were getting hit on all sides. There was in their entire 2200 year history, there was not a single year they were at peace, all frontiers. And it wasn't always because they're looking for trouble. No. A lot of it was as defensive, including with those pesky Normans. Yeah. Yeah. On the topic of great matter of history, so where do you land on this great debate? How important are individual humans versus systems? So what do you think turns the ties of history? Can individuals, rulers or individual warriors or individual humans have the power to change the course of history? Yeah, that's the question, isn't it? The short answer is I subscribe to the great man or great woman theory. I think there's moments I can't imagine the pros and reframar. I don't think you can just swap out Martin Luther and have a pros and reframation. I don't think you can swap out Augustus and have the Roman Empire. I mean, I don't think you can swap out Kant and so on and so forth. I think ultimately these impersonal forces are insufficient for explaining because we are people. We are humans. Everything is kind of a relational thing. But at the same time, the moment needs the man, but the man also needs the moment. Some of it is timing. Some of it is the environment, the system around it. But yeah, I've just seen so many incredible humans that persevere through things that would break basically everybody. And the power of the belief they have, we're talking offline about Napoleon, here's a guy who was a student of all the great military generals of the past, extremely competent in being able to micromanage every aspect of military affairs of a nation, but also extremely confident in his vision of the world and ability to conquer anyone. And you have the same thing with Janus Khan, this boy that came from nothing, that everything was taken away, united all of Mongolia and then conquered most of the known world to them, meaning eventually China. And it's like, well, can you possibly have the great Mongol Empire without Janus Khan? No. Yeah. And in the same way, as Americans ask ourselves that question about the founders, I mean, George Washington, not to romanticize it, but to give away power symbolically is a really powerful statement. Like we mentioned with Augustus. There's, when somebody's given power, in some sense, absolute power, what they do with that power can reverberate through generations. And that's in the hands of an individual. Yeah. Yeah, it's exactly as well put, you know, since an ad us in a room, same thing. What lessons from, this is a big ridiculous question. What lessons from all the things we've talked about the exploration of the Vikings? What lessons to learn from Vikings? Lessons to learn from the Viking aid. By the way, I should mention one thing, it's a very practical lesson that we didn't talk about, that you taught me is the Vikings were, like, groomed themselves. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a very clean, this is so very surprising to me, they do like, wash themselves, and then both the men and the women, really took care of themselves. Yeah. You don't often think about that. There was this whole, like, the Vikings, everyone at this, everyone has this very clear picture of what a Viking look like and also has no idea what a Viking look like, somehow at the same time. Like, almost everything about them is wrong that we think of, you know, almost everything about that is wrong. They didn't wear horned helmets. Their hair probably was blonde disproportionately, but that was more because they used lie to die it because it would kill the lights. And then they would take baths on a more regular basis. I mean, this dependent on where you were. So in England, for example, they were mocked as being soft, which always blows my mind, like, really, you're going to mock the Vikings being so because they took too many baths. But then in the Muslim East, one Muslim traveler writes that they were God's filthiest creatures because of their habits of kind of disgusting, shared bathing. All that aspect. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not the, they didn't bathe. They bathe the little too much and together. They bathe, but they also, like, would brush their teeth using recycled, like, they would spit and do a cup and pass it to the next guy who's, it's not awesome. I read that this could be propaganda, but I read that in England, there was worry that the Vikings were bid to attractive to the women of England because of how much the Vikings to care themselves in terms of grooming. Yeah. In the Dane Law, like, you get invaded by these people, kicking your rear end militarily. Now they're stealing your women just to insult you as well. Yeah. They washed themselves daily. Yeah. They've got good teeth. Where does they kneel? I know. I know. What do you guys get at everything? Yeah. doing. Anyway, so yeah, so one of the lessons I think we need to draw is a shower daily. Shower daily. Yeah, there you go. That's the lesson. That's the takeaway. That's the big profound takeaway. Is there is there something big about the exploration about the leaps into the unknown? Yeah, I think like a couple of years ago there were all these debates about statues. I'm sure we pulled these statues down. This person did a bad thing. Let's pull these statues, you know, and I was thought they were kind of silly. I mean, I understand the point, but like we don't when you have statue of Christopher Columbus, for example, you're not glorifying every single thing the man ever did and all the bad stuff that comes from this or that, you're honoring something about him like the spirit it takes to cross an ocean, not knowing what's on the other side and that they had spirit of exploration. I think with the Vikings, it's the same. There's this way you approach the world. This fearless, pragmatic approach, I think as an American too, it's the ultimate, it's the ultimate rags to rich. It's the myth we tell ourselves, you know, the man who starts with nothing and ends up as a sea king well respected and sung about by poets. I mean, that's that's it right there. You know, this is and when you're when you're a society and you stop doing this, you run into trouble as well. What about the the Byzantine Empire? What lessons you draw from them? This is a much bigger one. Thousand year history. And it's also what I think is so cool about the Byzantines is that in the ways that they are like us and the way that they are unlike us. In some ways, they're very analogous to the United States, the kind of the polygotten nature of their inhabitants, you know, their roots, the Greco-Roman Judeo-Christian roots. And yet it was a place of incredible alien things as well, men sitting on top of pillars, you know, a king, an incredibly hierarchical system which abhorred democracy. So I think it's a way it's a route we could have taken. And it's the way they handled things, immigration, inflation, war, peace, diplomacy. I think there are there are lessons there for us. Yeah, I think from the Vikings, the lessons are a bit more poetic. Yeah. The lessons from the Byzantine Empire is like quite literal like how do we run a government? How do we run the law? Yeah. How to build a stable society. And honestly, like you can count on the fingers of one hand states that have lasted a thousand years, right? Byzantium and Venice, I think. And Venice was an offshoot of the Byzantines. Like that's a good for a government to last a thousand years is a rare thing. Like we should be taking a look at this. Like how? And how much of that is due to Augustus? Can we give him any credit for this? I mean, he built the system. Yeah, but there was a lot like you mentioned a lot of people on the way from Constantine to Justinian, the Basil, there's so many emperors along the way that revolutionized and then restabilized the empire after the almost falling apart. You know what else to though? Like what happens to a human when you give that human essentially absolute power? Because the Byzantine emperors stood halfway to, I mean he was more autocratic than anything other than I don't know the Pope that we, you know, we have in the modern world. What happens when you give someone that level of power? Like I love Justinian, but I wouldn't have liked to know him. You know, I wouldn't like to be one of his subjects. I love Basil the first, but man was a bloodthirsty tyrant. Like I think it shows you what happened. He was at Lord Act and absolute power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Like that's quite clear throughout Byzantine history. So that's a long, a long list. And as technologies become more powerful, absolute power becomes potentially more destructive. Yeah, it's more absolute. It's more absolute. I mean, this is the project for the 21st century. The 20th and the 21st century is post-industrial revolution, post-the computer, technological revolution, post-nuclear weapons discovery. How do we construct societies that last like the Byzantine empire did a thousand years? Is this a new challenge for us? There's going to be history books written about us. Because like nuclear weapons, you know, 80 years ago, it's like Greek fire that you can apply to the entirety of human civilization. And so that there's going to be good history books. And I hope there's going to be these stories about the American Empire, about the rest that sound similar to Byzantine Empire versus the Viking Age. They're only the last to the rest. Yeah, yeah, three centuries. I mean, I suppose the good news is that can be done, right? Or it has been done. It has been done. What gives you hope about the future? Having looked at the deep history of us, what gives you hope? During grad school, I was reading Frederick Douglass's autobiography. And he said, I could sit with Plato and Cisro and they would not flinch. You know, by which he meant that the great conversation was for everyone, no matter what your skin color, no matter what your level of income, and even no matter your intelligence. You know, and I think that's actually what that's why history comes alive for me is because these are not alien people. You had asked how similar are ancient people to us psychologically, you know, what their goals were for life. And I think the short answer is they were identical to us, which is why we can understand them. It's why you should read things. It's why you should read the meditations because this is not just some dry, whatever talking to himself in a culture that you cannot understand and can never recreate. It's a human talking about being human, you know, and I think human nature has not changed. And I don't think human nature will change. So we are flawed and broken and we are, that's the human condition. We're going to be flawed and broken. So I don't think, I actually think that's the great question of history. If you want to understand history, you have to know about human nature. What is our human nature? If you think it's a blank slate and we can kind of educate ourselves to a utopia or, you know, like the Marxists said, then okay, hasn't really worked out, but okay, if you believe we're basically bad, there's a whole set of things that come with that. If you believe we're basically good, there's a whole set of right. So you won't learn the appropriate lesson if you misdiagnose human nature. Yeah, I think the diagnosis that you're kind of hinting at is seemingly the most accurate one was just we're flawed. A mix of good and mixed of evil capacity for both. That's right. That's right. I mean, I, I have to teach my kids to be kind. I don't have to teach my kids to be unkind. I mean, one of those is natural and one is not. I think my kids can become kind, you know, the capacity, the capacity humans have the capacity for for much great things, but not perfection has to come outside of us. Well, what is it that line of all of us are in the gutter, but some of us are looking up at the stars. Yeah. And so you got to teach as many of us and to look up at the stars and dream because once you allow yourself to dream of a better world, you try, you try. Like the Vikings did go out there. Don't try not to murder your neighbor, but if you do, all of us have, of course, if you do, there's Greenland, there's Greenland. There's Greenland. Thank you for everything you've done for the world. Thank you for the podcast. You put out there. Thank you for your incredible books and thank you for the conversation today. Thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity. Thanks a lot. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Lars Brownworth. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, get feedback, and so on. And now let me leave you with some words from the Valsunga saga, a 13th century Icelandic prose epic that tells the story of the Valsunga clan, a legendary Norse dynasty of heroes and dragons layers. Fear not death for the hour of your doom is set, and none may escape it. And another powerful quote from this saga is, better to fight and fall than to live without hope. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.