#493 Jason Flom with Ronnie Miller

I'm Stephanie Young. The hit podcast Love Trap is back with new updates in the case of Laura Owens. This is CR 2025 State Versus Laura Owens. I think she really believes that she still hasn't out. I'm quite confident that they're up to something. We're following the case live as the criminal charges finally come to a conclusion. Trust us when we tell you as the victims of Laura Owens she will not stop. Listen to Love Trap. On the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Munga Shatee-Gatherer and I'm back with a new season of my podcast Skyline Drive. This time I talked to scientists, biopunks, chermudgins, blues owners, super seniors, and go as top cryotherapy lab to try to understand this obsession with living forever and what it means for all of us. And I get into a bit of trouble along the way. I'd say probably start bone smashing. That doesn't work. Make you look more defined. They say it works. I don't know. Listen to Skyline Drive, how to live forever on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I am Rappaport on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. [MUSIC PLAYING] On February 11, 2010, a baby girl was born to unwed parents Laurie Johnson and Ronnie Miller in Rockford, Illinois. But her parents' relationship gradually became contentious which only worsened during the custody battle. During a heated exchange on July 12, 2015, Ronnie threatened to sue for full custody. A few days later, he was accused of sexually assaulting their daughter. In a video statement made with Child Protective Services, the daughter appeared to have been coached into making the accusation on the record, an accusation that she repeatedly recanted and never again affirmed. Yet, the state was able to find a nurse who claimed that the daughter's medical history was suspicious or sexual abuse. And that was enough for a jury to send Ronnie away for 20 long years. This is Rompful Conviction. [MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome back to Rompful Conviction, where we have a case where it appears that false accusations were used to weaponize our courts and child protective services to settle a custody battle. And ultimately, victimized the child, whom they purported to protect, as it seems that she was used against her own will to incarcerate her father, Ronnie Miller, who's now calling in from an Illinois correctional facility. Ronnie, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm really happy to be able to share your story and I appreciate you being here. Welcome. Thank you very much. And joining him is Post Conviction Attorney Leonard Goodman. Yes, thank you. And later we'll hear from Ronnie's sister, Deborah. But first, let's hear about what Ronnie's life was like before all of this. I grew up in Rockford, Illinois. It's not a good place to grow enough, but it became a teenager and moved out. I dropped out of school. I got my end of getting my D&D and then kind of just fell into factory work. Up until this, I was actually at a pretty decent pharmaceutical packaging company. I worked in the warehouse. You know, I'd been there four years. All the other factories that I worked in Rockford were pretty much shitholes, hoard conditions, and little bit of money. So this company that I actually made it into, that it worked with clean. You're in a pharmaceutical company. The people were friendly. Nice. You had room for success. It was a pretty good place to work at. On my way to becoming management, this was from 2011 to 2010. During which time, Ronnie was trying to co-parent his daughter with a woman named Laurie Johnson. We had known Laurie often on. We had our daughter in 2010. But in the beginning of the relationship, it wasn't nothing serious. It was just having fun until she wanted me to move into her place, which I did. We had been doing good for, I'd say about a whole year before she found out she was pregnant. And at that time, she already had a child before. So I would say she was questionable about having another. For me, this would have been my first child, which, yeah, I was stoked that I was going to be a dead. I made every doctor's appointment that was scheduled. I remember at one time. I found out that my daughter, she could hear me. So I started reading books and talking and playing music and everything. But a lot of reading. So during the birth, she came off screaming. She screamed in the nurse of the counter-enter hands and everything. And I remember saying to her, it's okay, baby girl, here's daddy. And she immediately knew my voice. Even the nurse commented, it was like, oh, she knows you. You know, something I'll never forget. So while fatherhood seemed to suit Ronnie, he and Laurie weren't a natural fit. We made it like the first year. When I found out she was cheating on me with another man and we pretty much broke things off. I was out of the house, but it was a very toxic relationship to where I would move out and she would convince me to come back and all this. Oh, let's do it for the baby. I had fought for it every time. And I wanted my daughter to see us together. My parents were divorced and I didn't want that for her. So yeah, of course, I kept coming back, even though the way she treated me was like, shit, but when I wasn't with her, she would hold the child from me. No, you can't see her, no, you can't talk to her, this type of stuff, where she would use the kid as leverage. My understanding is that if he was not allowed to see her, he would get a court order so that the mom's obstruction of his visitation would be put to a stop by the judge. And it appeared that this was a pattern from Ms. Johnson that had been playing out with the father of her 15-year-old son Tristan. Oh, man, if you talk to Wayne Gilberto, he'll tell you that he's that same thing. And she had me believe in this man was a heroin addict, a thief, just the worst person imaginable she was selling to me. And of course, I believed her, but later on I found out this dude was going to work, wanting to see his kid, wanting to be in his kid's life, but because he wouldn't submit to her, she did the exact same thing with him. Use the kid as leverage. If you look at the family court records, you'll see similar accusations made against that father of that other child, but that child had a history of some mental illness and was doing things that were frightening. He threatened to commit suicide, spent like two weeks on the side or getting on this medication she told me, okay? He was at one point accused by his father that he was touching his stepdaughter on a weekend visit over there. And she kept it real hush with me, so I didn't know the exact details. I just knew that he wasn't allowed to go over there because of these allegations. Okay? And if her dad called him a pervert and then she went to DCFS trying to say that Wayne was abusing Tristan by accusing him of these things that were not true. It appears that Mr. Gilberto was interested in protecting his step-doters, but Ms. Johnson took that as an opportunity to weaponize the Illinois Department of Child and Family Services or DCFS to restrict his access to their son. Meanwhile, Ronnie and his sister, Debra, began fearing for GM safety. Yeah, so I used to watch GM every day. So there was things that GM would say to me about things happening in the household with her brother. There was one instance where she told me she woke up with her brother standing over her, and she was afraid. And I told her mom about that, and she told me, "No, she's just lying. She's making things up." So then I become concerned and I start telling Ronnie, like some of the things that GM has been saying to me. That's why I was concerned about my daughter living over there. And I confronted Lori about this. She said, "Oh, no. Tristan, he wouldn't do that." I said, "Well, why would my daughter be lying about this?" I said, "I don't feel safe, especially him coming out of a psych ward being doked up on all this medication." And then all of a sudden, a couple weeks later, he'd take him off his medication, and now he's acting off fucking weird and shit. Then later on, we come to find out in court record, Tristan has sexually abused his dad's girlfriend's daughters. But none of this was ever brought to court. Which seems like some really important context, almost as important as what happened next. So I told her I was going to take her back to court for full custody because I'm concerned about what's going on here. And I'm going to let the courts know about his psych ward visits, about all this stuff that you say he's not doing, but obviously is. So yeah, I threatened to take her back to court for full custody. And then I believe that was on like a Sunday. And here it is Wednesday. Now I'm doing a Q's, especially my less than my daughter. So it appears that July 12, 2015 was the Sunday of the argument. And then Ms. Johnson called DCFS. We don't know because we weren't there, but maybe the mom said the daughter had some itchiness. And she asked her about it. And she said, oh, daddy's. weird he touches me and that was the initial report that was made and that report was enough to get an order of protection. The way I found out was through my sister because my sister watched my daughter they showed up at my sister's house on Friday. She came by to pay me for the week before because her and my brother split paying me and she made GM wait outside like Lori was telling me all these things and GM was looking through the screen door and she's like yeah yeah I got to tell you something so I come outside and she runs to the back of my yard and I have like a trampoline and everything because I have kids and she's like yeah I got to tell you something daddy touches me and then she runs off and goes and jumps on the trampoline like it was nothing no big deal. I go to my brother because obviously if a child is being hurt I want to protect that child. GM was examined by their pediatrician Dr. Rhodes who found no cause for concern. Meanwhile Aunt Debbie called the family together. I instantly called my mom my brother and I'm like look this is what's going on so then Ronnie called Lori and got Lori to come over to my mom's house and she's telling everybody it's too late DCFS is involved I've taken her to the doctor GM she comes in the house and she wants to sit with her dad like she actually cried because she wanted to stay with all of us when Lori told her it's time to go you tell them what you have to tell them and let's go and she was sitting on Ronnie's lap crying and screaming as Lori took her to leave that's actually the last time Ronnie's seen her. I'm Munga Shateekeler and I'm back with a new season of the podcast Skyline Drive. This time I'm diving into a rabbit hole of peptides, organoids, blood boys, blue zones and brain replacement to try to understand what this longevity obsession is all about and what it really means to live forever for all of us. I learned about some rad science. I can make a brain for you and then we can test what draw is the best for your brain as opposed to his brain. Here's some hard truths. I would expect Indians to age faster but I did not expect it to be almost a four to five year acceleration and get myself into a world of trouble. That doesn't work. They say it works. I don't know. Listen to Skyline Drive, how to live forever on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. This is Michael Rappaport and my podcast, the I am Rappaport stereo podcast is unlike anyone you've ever heard. We're a variety show and if you're looking for strong opinions, funny opinions about sports, entertainment, politics, pop culture and whatever else catches my attention then subscribe now. This kid, Jeff Farr Jackson is as good as Romney Malik as Freddie Mercury and it's as good as Timothy Chamolay as Bob Dylan and I say that with love and respect for both of those actors and I don't know how many Oscar nominations they give out. And it's five six for best actor. 150% this kid, Jeff Farr Jackson should absolutely positively get nominated for his portrayal as Michael Jackson. Listen to I am Rappaport on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Hey guys Paul Versey here and I want to talk to you about Paul's best podcast. I will furrow big money players that work in iHeart Radio. I sit down each week with a special guest and we discuss the absolute best of things. David's. It's that and then there's everything up. He would just shout one line and would murder. Murray. One. Let's talk about the best moments that we had on the road. I would love a cocktail. Through Joker get last role middle seat on a Southwest Airlines flight. Joe I was like, it was great. The guy on the field. The player thought Joe is his former coach and he hugged him and hugged him and Joe just went with it. And the guy goes, what are you doing here? And he walk in and it is bananas. I mean it's a feast for the eyes and I was like, it's like it's not my thing either. But we're here. One in Rome. Top athletes, chefs, musicians, everybody. To Paul's best podcast on the iHeart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. When GM was sitting on my brother's lap and I'm sitting there talking to her and I'm explaining to her like, GM, I'm an adult. I'm here to protect you. If there's anything going on, you can share this with Aunt Debbie and I will make sure you know I keep you safe. That's what adults are supposed to do. And then she looked at me and she goes, so if that was happening to Abby, which is my daughter, there are only a few years apart. She's like, would you do the same thing? And I told her I said, GM, if any child is ever being hurt, I will always keep them safe. And I kept telling her, this is very important that you tell me the truth. And then she changed her whole story saying it was a guy at her mom's house, which was confusing to us. Ms. Johnson had another boyfriend at the time or perhaps GM meant her older half brother Tristan either way, two weeks later, on August 4th, 2015, Ms. Johnson made an appointment with DCFS to get the allegation on video. My understanding is that the child had recanted to the mom and was telling the mom it never happened. And that was part of what prompted her to put the child in front of the video camera to try to document these stories against Ronnie and put them on film. Literally with the mom, practically sitting next to her. In this video interview, she's not supposed to know where she's going, and know what was going to be asked. The child starts making accusations against her dad before she's even asked any question by the interviewer, suggesting that she had been coached. Many of the things that she said during the interview are conceded to be not true and fantastical. She said that the police came and arrested my dad, but he got away. Who was conceded that there no police had come? She said that her dad had a cast in her description of the abuse. He never had a cast on his arm during this period. She said that there was a dog involved. So all these things were conceded to be not true. Everything that video is total lies, except the one that they want to believe is that I sexually abused my child. So yes, she had recanted before she was put in front of the video camera and after, after to a therapist, to the mom, and to the trial prosecutors, saying it's not true. I was manipulated into saying that. The prosecution then went out and hired a nurse practitioner who had taken a course in sexual abuse and somebody that they had used in the past as a sexual abuse expert. And this woman examined the child who was at this time was five years old, found nothing abnormal. And the prosecution said, well, the child is now saying it never happened. So we can't go forward with this case unless the expert will say that there is physical evidence of abuse. So no charges were filed, but the order of protection remained in place. The mom went to extraordinary lengths to keep the daughter away, not only from her father, but from his whole family. It was almost as if the mom was afraid that people that clearly pose no threat to the child. If they were with her, that the story that the mom had fabricated would be exposed. And by October and November, Ronnie and his family began winning a family court and it appeared that they would all be allowed supervised visitation at a DCF S facility called Safe Harbor. The judge said, hey, there's no evidence here. I got to let them see the kid. Here's Laurie calling up DCFS and letting them know that I'm winning the family court that they need to do something about it. I have all those records where DCFS contacted Shannon Krueger and was like, and it's all in the notes, which is crazy to me. This is what we need you to say. Can you say this? And she said, yes, I can say that then they told her to contact the prosecutor and let them know that she would state that in court. So the expert then examined the child's medical history and found that there were some urinary tracked infections and some general redness and said, yes, I can say conclusively that is highly suspicious for sexual abuse in a five-year-old girl. I think she was four at the time that she had this redness. Previously, the child's pediatrician had attributed these issues to pilot training, a new bath soap, or a new laundry detergent. Yet Krueger's opinion led to Ronnie's arrest in early December. He was bonded out. His family court wins were rolled back, but at least his family was granted access to GM. Their first visit, it was right after the holidays, where my whole family, I'm talking like eight adults and like 12 nieces and nephews, they wanted to give her all of her presents for Christmas and all that. So they have a thing over at my sister's house. All the girls in the family, my daughter and then my brother's two daughters and her, they're all pretty close in age. So just seeing them together, playing with their dolls, being able to sit with my mom, having all her grandkids together. Now, mind you, I can't be around at all. I met a whole other house with another witness that says, I was there the whole time. After they dropped her back off after she got all over the present all this stuff. Now this is Lord. I think my daughter, this is Laurie, call the police, saying that my daughter told her that I talked to her on the phone. Total fabrication. After checking the call logs and speaking with Ronnie's family, the police confirmed that the accusation was false. Then, after the second visitation, came another false accusation. The mom calls protective services again and said Ronnie's violating it. He's using these grandparents' visitations to see his daughter and to sexually abuse her. They pulled my daughter in and questioned her for two hours. They were trying to see if she could verify if Ronnie was at the visit. That was later considered to be false. Everyone agreed. He never violated the order of protection, but it was enough to end these grandparent visitations. Since these two new accusations were provably false, the state only moved forward with the first one, with the support of Nurse Kruger. And Ronnie had a conversation with his lawyer prior to trial where he said, "I've seen these reports that they're going to call an expert to say that my daughter was abused. Shouldn't we have our own expert?" And his lawyer responded, "No, we don't, because there's no physical evidence. We don't need an expert." Jennifer admits she never called or looked around for any expert testimony. If she had, she would have found out that the allegations that Kruger made were totally medically mumbo jumbo. Shannon Kruger's opinion was about to go unchallenged to trial, along with Ms. John's credibility with her well-documented history of weaponizing family court. His lawyer didn't pull the family court file, so she wouldn't have known about the past history, but she did know about the December January incident and the false accusation, and the lawyer just was unable to figure out how to get that in at trial. The recantation to the therapist was also denied a grounds of confidentiality, even though it was clearly exculpatory, as were the recantations to the trial prosecutors. They were trying to prepper for trial, that's when she told them not once twice that my dad didn't do this to me. Also, they admit during those interviews with her that she seemed to cheer up when she heard my name was excited to see me. It was like, "Oh, is my daddy here? Is that somebody afraid of somebody?" No. Your main witness recants to you twice. She recants to a therapist. She recants to her mother on 30 times that she says it. So she's trying to tell these people this shit didn't happen, but none of them are believing her. Or maybe they did. Considering the affidavits they signed about the recantations, as well as the offer they made to Ronnie prior to trial. Yeah, they offered me probation, no jail time. What type of guilty man is not going to take a deal for no jail time in probation? The only person that is not going to take that deal is the innocent person that believed in the justice system and has the truth behind their side. I turned that opportunity down. Even though he's facing 20 years, he said, "No, I can't because it requires me to say that I harmed my daughter and I never would have harmed my daughter." Because he refused this deal, Ronnie was taken to trial in 2017 where curiously, first the state called GM's pediatrician, Dr. Rhodes, to the stand, and asked about the history of discomfort. Rhodes, she admits, "Hey, this could be something as simple as Taiji or an allergic reaction to laundry soap or something like that." And they told the jury to totally disregard their witness. Then they re-bited Rhodes with Nurse Kruger. Kruger has asked the same questions that Rhodes testified to and she would not admit that could be caused by something as simple as hygiene issues or allergic reaction from bubble baths or laundry detergent. And then GM was brought to the stand. This is a matter of Illinois law. They had to put her on the stand in order to put in the videotape of her prior statement. But the child was no longer accusing her father of a crime. They were very concerned the prosecutors because it had been more than two years since she had last seen her dad. So, yes, I was very emotional and I just see in her face, it was crazy. And as soon as my daughter walked in, the prosecution stopped the trial and basically told the judge was that, "Hey, we're afraid that she's going to run up and just give them a hug and that's not going to look good in front of the jury." The judge's suggestion and the prosecutors carried this out is to create sort of a human shield. So that when the child was brought to the stand, she would not be able to see her father. And so she would not be tempted to go and run and hug him. So a human shield obstructed GM's view of her father. And GM did say that her father touched her cuckoo with his finger. But it was said in a vague and non-sexual context. And GM didn't recall any details of a sexual nature. So the exchange went, quote, "Do you remember if he touched you on the inside or the outside of your cuckoo?" She replied, "Uh-uh. You don't remember?" She said, "No." "Do you remember what it felt like?" She says, "Well, it hurt it a little bit, but not too much, like getting your ears pierced." Did you ever see Daddy's private? She says, "I don't remember." Did Daddy ever touch you anywhere else on your body that he shouldn't have touched? She says, "No. Do you miss your daddy?" She answered, "Yes." "Do you love your daddy?" She said, "Yes." And there they're back and forth ends right there. That's an end quote. "The prosecution had her prepped and is very vague on whether you could consider this sexual abuse. Well, did your daddy touch you?" "Yeah, he touched you." Which could be construed as anything. I was a responsible single parent. Yes, I bade my child. Yes, I brushed my daughter's hair. I made her brush her teeth. I dressed her. Yes, I did all that. A responsible parent does all those things. I mean, to say that sexual abuse is just crazy. But that testimony came with the context of the video statement. And despite the absurdities and untrue details, it appears to have made a powerful impression on the jury, who subsequently were deprived of knowing about the false accusations and Ms. Johnson's history with family court, despite that was best efforts. When we testified, the only thing when we tried to bring up that date, they obviously kept it out of the court. They would seal everything. They would go up there, talk to the judge, then the judge would decide this can't be discussed because it has nothing to do with it. And we kept trying to say, "Yes, it does. It's a pattern of these lies that are continuing." It totally had something to do with the case. And they kept all of that out of the court documents. This, to me, was incredibly troubling. Almost as troubling as the prosecution, the court, and her mother repeatedly ignoring GM's recantations. And when Ms. Johnson was asked about the July 12, 2015 argument with Ronnie, she said it wasn't about suing for full custody or Tristan, but rather about where GM would go to school. But that testimony went unchallenged, and with that, jury deliberation predictably went very quickly. They delivered rated two hours, and they came back in and said guilty and it was over. I went from not spending one day in jail in my whole life to being cuffed up and brought away into a Tristan system for 20 years. And I've been here ever since. I'm Munga Shategatherer, and I'm back for the new season of the podcast Skyline Drive. This time I'm diving into a rabbit hole of peptides, organoids, blood boys, blue zones, and brain replacement to try to understand what this longevity obsession is all about. And what it really means to live forever for all of us. I can make a brain for you, and then we can test what draw is the best for your brain, a supposed to his brain. Here are some hard truths. I would expect Indians to age faster, but I did not expect it to be almost a 4-5 year acceleration. And get myself into a world of trouble. That doesn't work. They say it works. I don't know. Listen to Skyline Drive, how to live forever on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is Michael Rappaport, and my podcast, the I Am Rappaport Stereo Podcast, is unlike anyone you've ever heard. We're a variety show, and if you're looking for strong opinions, funny opinions about sports, entertainment, politics, pop culture, and whatever else catches my attention, then subscribe now. This kid, Jeff Farr Jackson, is as good as Romney Malik as Freddie Mercury, and it's as good as Timothy Chamolay as Bob Dylan, and I say that with love and respect for both of those actors. And I don't know how many Oscar nominations they give out. And it's five, six for best actor. 150% this kid, Jeff Farr Jackson, should absolutely positively get nominated for his portrayal as Michael Jackson. Listen to I Am Rappaport on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. I am. ♪ I'm a boy podcast ♪ - Hey guys, Paul Verzi here. And I wanna talk to you about Paul's best podcast. - I will, Pharaohs, big money players that work an I heart radio. - I sit down each week with a special guest and we discuss the absolute best of things. - He's David's. - It's that, and then there's everything else. - He would just shout one line, and it would murder. - Marie, lunch! - No, Per. - Let's talk about the best moments that we had on the road. - Through Joker get last road middle seat on a Southwest Airlines flight. Joe, I was just like, it was great. The guy on the state board on the field. And the player thought Joe is his former coach. - And he hugged him, and now Joe just went with it. 'Cause you know, the guy goes, "What are you doing here, coach?" And Joe just goes, "Hey!" (laughing) - And he walk in, and it is bananas. I mean, it's a feast for the eyes, and I was like, "It's not my thing either, but we're here." Went in Rome. - Top athletes, chefs, musicians, everybody. Listen to Paul's best podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. (dramatic music) - Prison stuff, man. Every day I wake up in a nightmare, man. Prison is designed to break you down every single day, and I refuse to let them do that. Now, this is what const me every day. Is that my daughter has been left in her abuser's hands and continued to be used by the state and glory. And I'm fearful every day for her safety. And she is the most important thing to me. If she could know the truth, and I knew that she was safe, I'd have no problem doing whatever they needed. If they needed me here for the rest of my life, I could care less, or my life's already ruined. I want her to be safe, and I want her to know the truth, and that's the bottom line of it. And I will always maintain my innocence no matter how this goes. And I'll never give up fighting. I'll fight this till the day I die. - Ronnie's direct appeal was handled by another lawyer soon after his conviction, but unfortunately, you can't bring in new evidence like the defense expert that should have been hired, or evidence of false allegations, et cetera. Of course, just don't allow it. - But the lawyer made a fairly strong argument that the evidence was insufficient as a matter of law. And Duke process says the prosecution must present evidence to prove guilt, otherwise the court should set you free. But what the appellate court said is, well, even though the child never made any accusation at trial, there was an expert to corroborate what was said on videotape. The court went on to say the defense put on no evidence to rebut this. So we have to sort of accept that it was true. - Now, I'd like you to remember that the court noted the absence of what would have been helpful evidence at trial as the next part of the fight would be to prove that Ronnie had been deprived of his right to effective counsel. - Part of the problem is the lawyer that represented Ronnie is now a judge in Winnebago County. She was appointed to a vacancy in the court by the judge that presided over Ronnie's trial. - Another thing weird too is after Shafer loses the trial, Judge McGraw, teaching a graduate, like, what kind of person is like, oh, you did such a good job, but you lost the case. Like, I found that very weird. And then Judge McGraw puts Shafer up for the judgeship, right? There's a lot of suspicion with that right after my case. - In a case where raising ineffective assistance of counsel also calls the trial judge's judgment into question, this doesn't bow to, well, it stinks, but those are the cards that they were dealt. So Leonard raised the issue that his attorney had failed to get Miss Johnson's history in family court as well as her having made false allegations. She wasn't able to get any of this admitted into the proceedings. In addition, the failure to hire a defense expert to rebut the testimony of the state's expert. - I had a conversation with this lawyer when I came into the case and she confirmed to me that she made no attempt to contact any experts for the defense. Now, it took me probably less than a couple hours to make some phone calls and find somebody a well-respected board certified gynecologist that had experience with pre-pubescent teens and was able to tell me very quickly that what their expert told the jury was complete nonsense, that this is very common in pre-pubescent girls to have episodes of urinary tract infections and general redness and itchingness, especially when they're learning toilet skills and all of that. - Dr. Jack McCubbin said, "There is no medical evidence of sexual abuse and it is imperative that the jury not be left with that perception." End quote. - The post-conviction was filed with, I think something like 70 exhibits, including Dr. McCubbin's report, the family law documents, DCFS records, which showed that the girl had recanted to her therapist. It was conceded at trial that she recanted to the trial prosecutors. There was also a report from a child psychologist because the defense really should have called a child psychologist because the prosecution told the jury, I'm paraphrasing, but in closing argument, that kids don't make these sort of things up. When kids tell stories, it's about dinosaurs, ghosts, and monsters, it's not about daddy touching me. What a child psychologist would have done is explain the situations when there's a negative influence from the mother when children do fabricate. The other thing that the prosecution said is that because the person that was asking the questions on the videotape was a forensically trained interviewer that guaranteed the accuracy of what the child was saying. And this child psychologist would have explained to the jury is that in fact, that forensically trained interviewer was not using very good practices, including the mother bringing the child into the room and placing her in front of the camera and the fact that the child started making accusations without even being asked a question by the interviewer, which is highly suspicious that the child had been coached. The other thing that we had asked for is we wanted the child's counseling records because we had direct evidence that the child had told her therapist that this never happened. Now counseling records are private, but if you can show a compelling reason that we need this information to free an innocent person the judge should order it and the judge did not. So that was part of the post-conviction petition. As I said, there were dozens and dozens of exhibits that was presented to the trial judge who was now asked to find that lawyer that he had appointed to the bench had been ineffective in this case. - And as expected, the motion was denied. - She's part of the club. She's the judge now. Got one person covering the other person's ass. All the way up, just look at his explanation of denying my post-conviction. He didn't even give an explanation. Mr. Goodman had to file a motion for reasoning and he was pissed about that that we would even question why he denied it. Well, you didn't give us an explanation why. - So that decision was appealed to the very same court that denied the direct appeal. Considering that they had noted two years prior that the defense had not rebutted the state's expert, their ruling was puzzling. - The same court is looking at the appeal of the post-conviction case in which evidence has been presented in the form of a report from a gynecologist with 40 years of experience saying that what the state's expert said it tried was complete nonsense. And I would just point out that the state never disputed that. They basically conceded, yeah, that's true. But you should still affirm this conviction. The state sort of came up with this excuse. Well, it's cumulative. There's other evidence that the girl had told some lies that there's other evidence that the girl had trouble wiping herself. Therefore, we don't need to hear from Dr. McCubbin. It would have been cumulative to call Dr. McCubbin. Again, this is complete nonsense, but the appellate court twisted itself and nots in order to uphold this conviction and keep this innocent person in jail and avoid making a finding of ineffective assistance against this colleague on the bench. - So it appears that nurse Kruger's testimony, the only thing that kept them from ruling for insufficient evidence on direct appeal where the defense expert would have been key. Now, with some mental gymnastics, that court decided that the presentation of such an expert was now cumulative to what had been presented. - Make it make sense. I can't. So additionally, the Illinois Supreme Court chose not to hear the case. - So Leonard and Ronnie moved on to federal habeas. - The case is pending in front of federal district judge in Rockford, Ian Johnson, a judge with a very good reputation. We've asked for a hearing in front of him and we'll see what happens. The case is fully briefed. The state filed their response, we filed a reply. Those are all sitting on the judge's desk, waiting for him to make a ruling. - Well, we hope Ronnie is granted a hearing where the judge can recognize both his innocence and the violations of his rights. In the meantime, there's a young girl still out there without her dad. - Even while Ronnie's been locked up all these years, we continued in family court fighting and fighting where my mom was finally approved to just have visits with GM with Lori present. And it'll always be like they go out to eat or they take her shop and or something. We did get a guardian at Lightham involved. My daughter was allowed to go to the visits with my mom, but then when I finally got allowed, my first, very first visit with my daughter, my mom, GM, Lori and Lori's mother. We were at McDonald's. She went back and told the court that I was questioning GM about everything again, 'Cause you know, obviously you're not allowed to talk about any of it and then all visits were stopped again. I even asked the guardian man light him to come to the visit like none of this happened and they're still using the court to say now you guys can't see her and I know why they're keeping us away from her because the truth will come out. It will come out one day when she's old enough and she can say what happened it's all gonna come out. The one other aspect of this case it's so tragic this is secondhand information but it is something that would not be hard to understand is that that she was basically used by the prosecution to put her father in prison for a crime that he didn't commit and the fact that the child is telling you and telling everyone that will listen to her this never happened. I think as she has gained some awareness of what her role was it's been very difficult for her and apparently there was some suicidal ideation in the child. To this day she's still having lots of issues between her mom and her brother and there's no help for her. I recently found out Tristan was arrested. Laurie stated she came home from work. He was drunk under the influence and had destroyed and broke everything in the house. They did arrest him and they actually put him in the hospital that night. They said they had to strap him to bed for over six hours and they couldn't release him because of Laurie's safety. And in the police report Laurie put she's afraid of him and this has happened on another occasion but if they couldn't release him for Laurie's safety what about GM's safety. This girl is now what is she 12 13 years old. She is 14. So I'm hoping that someday we will be able to have some contact with her and maybe the truth can come out to not only set Ronnie free but at least to attempt to write the wrong that was done to him. And hopefully Judge Johnston can give Ronnie the relief that he so richly deserves the needs and with that we're going to go to closing arguments. First Leonard, then Deborah and finally Ronnie. Thank you all for being here. I'm going to switch off my mic, kick back in my chair with my headphones on and just listen to anything else you have to say. I always had the feeling that deep down people want to do the right thing and one of the things that they don't teach you in law school is that you can be right on the facts and the law and still lose if you have judges that have a different agenda. And that's a very painful lesson for lawyers especially lawyers that do criminal defense work and really believe in some of their clients. And I think what you're doing is probably the most important as they say sunlight is the best just in fact and people know that a wrong was done. And I think if they think that it can be done in darkness then there's little incentive for people to want to come forward and write a wrong because it is hard for prosecutors to admit that they made mistakes. It is hard for judges to admit that they made mistakes. I mean it is hard for lawyers but let's make this right. I've been there since day one. I've gone to every court saying I have all the documents and me having my own daughter I couldn't imagine. Your kids mean everything to you and then for somebody to use your kid against you for their own personal gain. That's what's really hard for me to understand. I just want them to see how the justice system is wrong and how it incarcerates completely innocent people and rips life's apart not only for my brother not only was he wronged. Jean was wronged by the system too. I used to tell Ronnie that one day we would be standing somewhere talking about how the truth would come out and people would really see what a person Ronnie really is instead of what's been cast upon him. It will happen just one day. Our justice system is broken from the foundation to the top. All the checks and balances that are supposed to protect an innocent man like myself failed. It failed because it is run by corrupt people who only see people like myself as money and a conviction rate. It and they cared nothing about true justice or the truth. I think everyone who has heard and knows my story and say that I was not given a fair trial. I was deliberately denied a fair trial. When it comes to sex abuse allegations, I have learned that no evidence is needed for a conviction. All the players in our justice system know how sensitive the public is towards sex abuse and they exploit this fear to convict innocent people like myself. All for money, all for power, not for real justice or public safety. This is bigger than me. This can easily happen to anyone. It could happen to you to someone in your family. This must stop. The system has failed me and my daughter. To the people listening, I need your help. These corrupt individuals work in the shadows. They don't want cases like mine to be in the public eye. So I need all those who are listening to be my voice to expose what happened to me. The whole people that listen to this, the bigger and brighter that light become. And then these corrupt individuals won't be able to hide in those shadows no more. And the truth, God willing, will prevail. I am pleading with all those listening to talk to everyone they know and encourage them to listen to this podcast. Thank you for your time. God bless you. Thank you for listening to "Rontful Conviction." You can listen to this in all the Lava for Good Podcasts one week early and add free by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as my fellow executive producers, Jeff Campler, Kevin Wartus, and Jeff Clyburn. The music in this production was supplied by three-time Oscar nominated composer, J. Rouse. Be sure to follow us across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and at Rontful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram @itsjsonflom. Rontful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with signal company number one. We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported in this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in this show are their own. And do not necessarily reflect those of Lava for Good. I'm Stephanie Young. This is CR 2025's date versus Laura Owens. I think she really believes that she still has an out. We're following the case live, as the criminal charges finally come to a conclusion. Trust us when we tell you as the victims of Laura Owens, she will not stop. Listen to Love Trap. On the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Munga Shategeler and I'm back with a new season of my podcast Skyline Drive. This time I talked to scientists, biopunks, chermudgians, blues owners, super seniors, and go as top cryotherapy lab to try to understand this obsession with living forever and what it means for all of us. That doesn't work. They say it works. I don't know. Listen to Skyline Drive, how to live forever on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. get nominated for his portrayal as Michael Jackson.