#493 Hiring, Firing, and Hard Conversations (ft. Squirrel Solutions)

If they if we're gonna let them go anyway, why not give them the chance to redeem this opportunity? I think oftentimes we have these conversations behind doors rather than with the person because we're concerned They're gonna quit. They're gonna be complaining and I like to say to my clients allow an adult to be an adult I do think fear is a huge factor and we cover it with niceness We think being nice is the best route and mend specifically with me with my team with my family with my friends I believe kindness delivers truth as well Hey everyone welcome back to the contract to growth network podcast. I'm Logan Schindelholster joined by Brian who is the owner of squirrel solutions. So Brian just to give you a soft bottle lead this thing off What does the name squirrel solutions come from nice Logan? I am excited. You asked that. It's one of my favorite stories to tell people And it kind of starts a little bit with my family. So I have four little ones my wife and I have four kiddos five ages five to ten and we love to watch a good movie Well years ago we were watching this movie called up Anybody who knows the picture or film picks our film up We'll kind of know where I'm getting at with this before I get there But there's three main characters. There's Carl Carl Fredrickson. He's about eight years old And he loses his wife and he's trying to get to this place called paradise falls through that process of him trying to get there he encounters Boy Scout basically his name is Russell Russell's about nine years old and his only goal is to help and elderly citizen in the community so he can get that last badge Through their journey of trying to get the pairs the paradise fall. They Encounter a dog who has technology that can allow him to speak and that dog's name is duck He's searching for this bird named Kevin So I'm giving you all of the build up to that but every time Doug is speaking He can get distracted and whenever he becomes distracted. He says squirrel And we would make a joke of it with our kiddos with our friends obviously many people know this reference of Whenever you're distracted you say squirrel and and my goal With home on oh with with with clients with the builders is to really solve their squirrels And it it means more than just that movie. Um, I remember my first client Um and natural Tennessee. It's actually north of natural Tennessee and he was a team of two people and his daughter became sick And as his little infant daughter was sick he couldn't get to the hospital to help her out He couldn't get to the hospital to be with his his wife and his other two children And he saw work or certain things about work as a distraction and that's kind of weird birth It was like hey, I can help you solve those distractions So that's where the name comes from squirrel solutions Um, that's my goal is to come into home to to owners lives and and really just help them Solve the distractions that you know, they weren't necessarily striving to have as a business owner So that's where the name comes from. It's a pretty fun story for me to tell So what are some of those distractions that you're talking about because as a business owner myself There's like a million of them. I can't imagine that you're solving all of them So like what are some of the common Squirrels if you will that people come to you and you're like hey, that's my jam Yeah, so you know if you look at my name is you know fractional HR and operation So it does cover a multitude of things however the focuses that have really been honed into over the past decade is HR with handbooks with with recruiting with onboarding with termination policies But then also operations making sure that there's clarity between what is your job description? What is your SLP that you should be creating? So it kind of varies With what the client needs in that specific season. I love following a practice EOS building out rocks and really making sure What is the the destruction of this quarter and how does the human resource portion help aid you in getting to accomplish that goal of that rock So with this are you like preaching along the lines of like EOS where it's like that's what you follow and you have clients We'd like traction I guess like how aligned with the EOS model are you stepping in and actually implementing that's a good question I am not an official EOS implementer. I don't claim to be but I've spent nearly a decade practicing processing reading through And implementing them in other different professions that I've that I've had so I do feel pretty connected to EOS as a model that works why change it too much However each client needs something different. So they're what they need a structure EOS is a form of that structure So we may use that we may use another model the goal is to have consistency data that's being built And then structure that we can look to you in the past to improve the process for the future So you know EOS I love it. I do stand behind supporting companies that do it But those that don't that don't feel they love that The rigid structure there we just need structure. We just need some type of consistency some type of cadence Just like you would do in any other sport with exercise with conditioning. We just need that consistency So I do fall behind it, but I have other weights. I do it as well Got it and then you approach this from Like we say HR and Fractional like COO like I'm sure they go hand in hand or this like you know at our company They go very much hand in hand or usually it's like is it a people problem or is it like a process problem? So it kind of goes together I guess what's like a typical engagement with you look like and then we'll start just like dive into a little bit more But let's say where modeler comes in and they go I need help What is a typical scenario that they need help with and then what do you actually do to help? That's a good question as well Typically they're going to come to me for recruiting Most people more more often than night will come and say they have a gap and a role that they need to be filled Maybe a designer or maybe a project manager or carpenter here You know draftman whatever it may be the true issue is often not that they need a hire It's it that I should say that sometimes there is that case But there's two issues that could happen the hiring gap or the role design gap The the hiring gap is hey, we don't have enough time to actually do the job We need people to take care of that. I have a current client Up in Michigan who they're looking for designer because they don't have enough people to handle the face time with clients Right, so you can't create you know a people and and and and you can't Solve that by doing more admin hours after hours right you have to have a person to handle those hours But then there are also moments where it's a role design gap where we actually don't need more people We need more structure or clarity and what we're doing so most people do come to me with that hiring Need or that reactive need I should say where they're needing a hired three days ago. We're needing a a termination process three days ago But you know, I like to see HR offs as preventive care Yeah, there's time to go to the ER room this time to go there for that emergency But if you do well with your your preventive care, we don't need to go to that ER situation where we're needing something two or three days ago I hope I answered your question a lot of that Yeah, how often does somebody come to you go and look Brian? I just need to hire this one a role and then You're stepping back and go well Before we throw bodies at the problem Let's actually figure out are we solving the symptoms or solving the problem and you're actually don't end up hiring You just kind of restructure either the process or the reporting or whatever it is around it So I guess like how often are you then saying you're right? You do need to hire versus hold on I think we can do this without hiring Yeah, they're that varies because if a person is adamant about hiring I don't want to discourage the you know You think that this person needs to be on your team. Let's go for it But let's start structuring what onboarding looks like let's start creating a true job description for this Let's do a time study of what this person what you are doing that's covering this role But then also what this person is going to be doing and sometimes through that process while I'm actively recruiting We realize hey, we actually don't need this type of role Maybe we need to shift gears. I was talking to a client up in the New York area And he hired for a project man or he was hiring for project manager He wanted somebody to be able to you know take the bags off of him and and put it on them But throughout the process of like really doing that time study seeing what he loved What he didn't love where he was strong where his working genius was We realized he actually needed somebody who was really good with the finance portion So we we actually made a step to do a estimator role More of an estimator project manager role there So they're more often than not shifts in the recruiting Then there is a less stock recruiting Because we I do want to affirm they're the owner they know what or they believe they know what they they need for their company I don't want to discourage that So Is the time audit is that typically where you would start to go? Hey, maybe we do want to hire this but but what we don't want to do is hire them and then they come in and they go great How do I know if I'm successful in this role and it's like well, I hired you to fit you know like What is that like your main tool to figure out what the next step is or like can you talk to me more about like How do you know When it's time to hire? Or let me let me take a set back home what it comes you doing or business owner comes you and goes Brian I think I want to hire but I'm open to whatever you got. Yeah. How do you then figure out what the solution is? Yeah, I think that this kind of goes back to the EOS model or that structure that we have throughout our Our week or our months. What are those to do is that keep falling Down and not being taking care of what are those gaps that clients are frustrated about team members are frustrated about Where is that bottleneck happening you see those things as you're going through those structures with whatever Method that you use so if they're not doing that I often will encourage let's create that first Time studies. I'll be quite honest most clients clients don't like it when I enforce it. It's just very, it's a stress to them. It's a frustration to them. They don't know how detailed to be. But for those clients that do move in that direction after about a, I would even say about a three or four day period, they start seeing things in their habits that say, oh, I actually do have time. Or the counter, I actually don't have time. So those are the two different routes that I'll typically go into to say, hey, do we really meet this person? And is this the person that's truly going to solve the issue that we actually have? Or are they just what we think is the next step? And how often are you seeing with some of these issues? You need a very specific role, like a designer or a PM or lead carpenter versus like, hey, your systems are just messed up. You have no way to track this stuff. You don't know what's going on. I think before we actually go out and hire a very specific role, maybe the role that we hire for is like an operations person or somebody that's actually going to untangle your back end. Yeah, I think more often than not, the companies that I'm working with, they're needing stability first of what does the cadence of our week, of our day even look like. I've implemented something to the point of a morning huddle, just do a quick morning huddle with all your designers or with your specifically with your carpenters or production managers that aren't doing a weekly meeting with their production team, like, well, how do you know what's happening? How do you know where the bottleneck's going to come or how the clients are filling outside of just being at the end of the job and doing the post-mortem or the Altaxia at that point? So I think more often than not, companies that come to me, they're also needing not just a hire, but the stability so that this person who's being hired comes into structure. They come into knowing KPIs. All those things happen when you have the foundation set. You can't create it at KPI and not be able to check it and make sure it's being done. So many clients that I have have handled the job descriptions that have been dated back to 2016. Job descriptions that haven't been open or updated in seven years, like those don't have the same power than when you're consistently reforming and creating and I shouldn't say reforming, but just brushing up and making sure that it's still relevant to today's age with AI, with the different systems that we have. Job descriptions should kind of lean into those things if that role needs that, but there are job descriptions that still are doing hand sketches, you know? So there are things that we have to definitely do with those clients and make sure that they are ready for the new hire to come into their team. - And with that, is that like you own it? Because I know like as an owner like all the stuff that you're describing, I'm like, I don't wanna do that. Like I know I have to do it and I know like, until lawsuit happens, like the employee handbook takes it back seat, but as soon as it happens, then I'm like, all right, now it's like, you know, you should lose weight, but until you have the heart attack if you kind of need the heart attack to lose the weight. So like, are you stepping in and then like owning that seat or are you then like trying to convince the owner to do it? I guess like, what does that look like? - Yeah, fractional partnership. I'm owning that seat. I'm coming in, I am getting all of you, you know, whatever that state law and expectation up to cold, we're looking at job descriptions, we're looking at pay, we're looking at market and analysis for compensation benefits. I am pretty much the HR manager or HR coordinator for the team while I'm there. And that does obviously include the recruiting. That does include the training, but it becomes more of a going back to that where preventative care, where we're thinking about the future, we're thinking about, you know, how do we look at 2027 quarter two, quarter three based off of our revenue, based off of our current team culture and how do we plan appropriately so that when we do need that next person, they're coming into a healthy and clear environment rather than the ER situation where it's like, hey, we need to do surgery right now. And though it can happen, though I've done that many times, it's not the ideal situation for the company because now we're just kind of in a triad situation. - And how much like, I wouldn't say ownership, are you putting on it, but almost like ownership of like, don't give you the example. I had a different business coach back, I don't know, a handful of years ago, and we would talk and basically the goals that I would set out, you're like, okay, great, how do we deal with it and all that stuff and unbeknownst to me because I was like, newer at this stuff, I was studying these unrealistic goals where it'd be like, if somebody came to you and said, Brian, I want to lose weight and you go, perfect, what do you want to lose? And I'm like, well, I'm about 175 right now, I'd like to be down to about 110, you know, this time next year, you go and great. How do you put a plan together for that versus like, hold on, you may die if you get down to 110 or that's going to like set a world record for most amount of weight loss. Like, I don't think that's realistic. So are you stepping in as simply the facilitator going, whatever your goals want to be, I'm here to help as crazy as it sounds or are you also going like, all right, well, like realistically, this is what we can do or this is what we should do and you're almost like putting your foot down as like the voice of reason at times. - Yeah, let me give a quick differentiator. So I am not a business coach. All of my clients have business coaches, which I'm really thankful for because I compare really well with what their goals are. However, in HR, do you kind of move as a space of counsel, right? You give that counseling, you give the bat news, which is why it's really important to have, not shouldn't say bat news, the real news, it's really important to have an HR director, manager, whomever you're however you want to call it that has enough humility to follow the shepherd, right? To follow the lead of whomever the owner is, but enough confidence to say, but this may not be the right direction or this may not be the right decision or, hey, let me help and support you in this decision differently. So they're going to your analogy of the fitness, there's the difference between watching a video or somebody coming in and saying, hey, run the lap, then somebody who's saying, I'm going to run the lap with you. Hey, I noticed that you kind of skipped it that part or hey, when you turn this corner, you should change your, your velocity in this way. So I move more as a partner where I'm a part of the team, I'm meeting the different staffers, I'm meeting with my clients, call me five, six o'clock in the evening because we want to process through things because I'm a part of it, I'm engaged, differently than maybe a coach would be who's just more so kind of telling you where to go. I like to call myself some sort of quarterback of certain departments. - Hell, and you do it remotely, correct? - It is remotely, but I would say 90% of the time, I do visit my clients at least once a quarter. Just to make sure I have that face-to-face contact, we like to do a quarterly meeting, I like to meet with different people, I like to see the projects meet new hires that have happened because I do think that face-to-face is important, so I do kind of come up there or go to wherever they are from time to time. - And of all the things that you do, we talked about recruiting, we talked about like the onboarding, then the, you know, what do we go from there, like the ongoing, I guess I preventive maintenance, if you will, where do you feel like you are strongest? - Yeah, I think that operation skill is my strongest skill, mainly because of my history of work, so prior to owning squirrel solutions, I oversaw about six different companies in the natural area, about 35 members strong, but with the ownership group, and operations being both clear concise and consistent is really, really important to me because a lot of the murkiness of business, a lot of the frustrations is because something wasn't clear. A lot of the training issues and the retention is because something wasn't clear. A lot of the HR really happened because operations wasn't strong and clear for a company, so I really find myself strong in an area, however, I've kind of gotten a name of recruiting pretty well too, I'm pretty great at that. So I do recruit quite a bit for my clients when needed, because I do want them to make sure that when we're putting people and bringing people into the system, they truly fit what we're trying to do and grow, and they're not just a warm body fitting a spot. - And we'd say things are clear, like my wife works for a huge bank, she doesn't have clear KPIs. - Sure. - Now she's up until 2am working on stuff, so clearly she is motivated up to get the stuff done, but it's not like they go okay by this date, you need to have this as your metric, and this is how we're gonna then compensate you on it. So when you're talking about clear understanding of things, is it you're putting a number on everybody within the company, is it more of like a, are they hitting the core values? And that's kind of how we know, how do you then know when you bring somebody into a new organization, they are gonna be successful, and you're actually measuring that success with the owner who hired you, goes Brian, that was a great move. - Yeah, you hit on two of the spaces, culture is important, right? That is vital to make sure that they're moving as the team expected them to move, and that's different for each role. A sales person's gonna be very different than a carpenter and what that looks like, but I do think a number should be placed on every single team member. It doesn't have to be a huge, very vital or important number, but some type of responsibility, some type of buy-in to say this matters. The most is similar to, I'll even say it like this, I have four little kids and we're teaching them chores, right? So after dinner, one child cleans the table, one child puts the dishes in the table, one child puts the chair, you know, they have their different responsibilities. So at the end of that evening, at the end of that night, if we say, hey, was it a good night, was it a good dinner, we can kind of track it back to culture, did we find joy in it, did we have fun with it, but then also effectiveness and efficiency, did everybody do the tasks that they have? So for me, you will know if you have strong KPIs, You will know if you have strong clarity in your company if you can look at each person asks them, Hey, did you have a good week? Did you have a good month? And why? Their why is what really showcases? Do they know what makes this a good, strong month, week, or day for their specific position? I'll give you a quick example. It's not in actually the construction world, but it's popping to my head. I was working with the cafe. And with this cafe specifically, there was the cashier. And we asked her that question, what makes you have a good day? She said that customers come, they're happy, and then they get their coffee within certain amount of time. Great. That sounds right, right? That sounds like a pretty decent why, all what, to making a good day. The company owner spoke to you, Hey, I don't know if I care about the time that they get their coffee, but I care about if they return, if they repeat, if they have cleanliness in the in the in the store or in the the the place. How many people come back and say, Hey, this order wasn't correct. So their alignment was a little different of what made it successful or not. Neither was per se wrong, but they weren't aligned. So that's what I mean by clarity of everybody is saying the owner, the department lead, and the team member are all aligned with what makes this role successful for this day, this week, and this month, or this year. So one of the things that I think that, I know, at least for me, and I'm sure a lot of your clients deal with it is the amount of complexity that we add to it. So it's not that this cashier, it's either they're happy and they get their coffee within five minutes, and it's not the owner that it's like they come back and it's clean. It is, they got their coffee, they're happy, they came back, they're clean, they referred their friends, you then figured out how to also, you know, work the the fryer. You then also, so it's like, you don't have a very simplistic, like I think in sales is like, everybody uses like the, and I use it with like weight loss because it's like the easiest one. You want to lose weight, yes or no? Like that's like the most simplistic thing, but in reality, there's so much complexity that we all add where we're saying we actually want you to do these 17 different things, and a lot of times they conflict. So when you step in and you go through that exercise with somebody, how often are you having the the owner of the company go, well, I want this project manager to communicate well, to no construction, to know how to manage the project, to know how to do project management software, to also then be resourceful. So if their subs call out, they have other, I mean, basically, it's like we're requiring them to do so many things. How do you typically approach something like that? Yeah. And tell me if I'm wrong, but I feel like that is a thing that people go through as a business owner. Yeah, it's a thing, but it's the thing that we don't have to. I think sometimes simplicity is where we start. Let's build the foundation. What is the most important thing of this role? Once we've mastered that, let's build upon it, right? And we continue to build because we're not expecting, or I'm not expecting somebody to change overnight. I'm not expecting somebody to change over a week. It's going to take time. But if we've built a strong layer foundation where they know exactly how to using your analogy or our analogy of the cashier, if every single time she comes in there, she looks and says, okay, is it clean? Is it good? I'm walking the store, I'm walking the restaurant. While I'm doing that, and I'm made sure that I've essentially done that foundation, also at the question, hey, how is your coffee? Right? Now we've, we've added one statement. Now that she's perfected that first portion. Okay, now that she said, you know, they're coffee, what are the things that you're getting? What is the feedback? Oh, they're saying they wish they had oat milk rather than, you know, normal milk. That brings back to the cashier statement, hey, while you're at the register, ask them those questions because you kind of are learning through the first statement of being clean. Now the second statement of, you know, checking in on the client, now you're bringing that data into the actual register to say, okay, I know what people think and how they see things or even where they're sitting. Hey, by the way, I know you're going to put your stuff over there at 12 o'clock, it gets kind of hot. I would recommend getting over there. Like those type of things are built upon that foundation of whatever you think is the most crucial aspect of that job. And a lot of clients that I have and client and business owners, we complicate things. We try to put everything at the same priority where everything is super, super important at every single moment. When in truth, we have one goal, the goal is to make it the client happy and to know them and we have different methods of which we try to do that. Got it. And then with that, go back to that same cashier example. So, okay, great. We can teach somebody, you know, because like cashier, especially if you're like, like this level is typically more entry level of stuff. So the expectation, well, tell me if I'm wrong, may not be necessarily that they're like, oh, how's your coffee in? I wouldn't sit over there, by the way. Like, can I get you it? Like, so you start to like almost require somebody where, I mean, even now it is with like Chick-fil-A, it almost feels like when they say my pleasure, it's more like, all right, you didn't really mean it. Like, you just said the script and like, I could feel it. You might as well have just said like, yeah, don't worry about it, man. Like, so how much of it is like realistic where you can start small and build upon it versus like, you got to kind of have to call a spade a spade and be like, well, Logan, the here's the thing, we have to go back to that culture thing that I spoke up earlier. We're hiring the people that will fit that role well. There are certain things that I shouldn't have to train a person on. I want them to come with some of them with the entry level. I'm with entry level roles. That is a culture role. That is all about, do you fit the future of the company? Do you fit the brand of the company? And if you fit those cultural things, I don't have to really get on you about certain tasks. I do need to explain it. I do need to train it. I need to make sure we're processing and you made a statement earlier about kind of throwing them into the fire as far as training and I have thoughts on that. But at the end of the day, if you're hiring the right culture person and you're training them effectively on the skill, there are things that won't fall through the gaps because you already know that this person will catch them. So how often are you going into a business and going, I got to be honest, your culture sucks or like you say these core values, you want it one way, but because you're the fire creator. Like, are you going in and having to kind of like just set people straight and be like, look, I don't think this is necessarily a company. I think it's a you thing. Yeah. That's a fun question that I have to dance with quite often. Of how do I articulate well to a necessarily typically is an essential person on that team, whether it be the owner or maybe a director or departmental leader that may be influencing a culture and not a way that we want. And then we have to have that conversation of this is the EOS. So I'll kind of bring this up. A people analyzer like they may fit really great on skill, but are they being are they detrimental to the team's growth. I have a project manager right now in Austin, Texas that he's been with the team for about seven or eight years. The company's only been around for about eight or nine. So he's very crucial to the development of this team. The owner is very aware. He's very aware that this project manager has a bit of an anger issue that training is hard for him. Development is hard for him. So the team under him can't really grow because there's not enough psychological safety in that space to be vulnerable in the spaces that they don't do well. So we're having that kind of discussion now of, hey, as the company owner, if you're not actively engaging in the culture, somebody's going to take the charge of that culture. And really, it goes back to that, me following the shepherd following the leader, how do you want us to gauge this because I can see some routes at this goal's negative. And we've lost people in that team because of that. And as I'm recruiting, as I'm bringing people on the team, I'm becoming more direct to, hey, this is the type of person that you're going to be working under. Being honest and open in that type of conversation. However, that's still a problem that we have to address. So I think company owners, when they're bringing me into the situation, they're acknowledging there's something wrong. They're acknowledging there is an issue. Natalie just needs the tools and the strategy of how do we resolve it with the least amount of casualties. Talk to me a bit more about like, how do you approach just the, balance the hard way, but change management within an organization. I mean, a lot of this to me is behavioral shifts. How do you get people bought in? When is getting, you know, folks too much on buy in versus like, look, these are the numbers. Like, if you don't hit these, like, I know you, I want you to bought into sales quota. And if you don't get bought and you're not going to do it, but ultimately it's like, if you don't hit the sales quota, we don't have a job for you. So like, how do you, I guess like dance that line of like, balancing change management and recognizing that people are people with also going like, hey, we got a job to do. Let's get it done. Yeah. So whenever I come into a company, I do a people audit. And in my people audit, what I'm trying to gauge is, where do they fall in the culture? What do they see as the culture separate than what you put on your website? Maybe that is true, but sometimes it's not. And then where do they fall in the skill? And after I've done that, what I do is I silo different people in my head and in my, my data into the team. And I say, hey, if I need this type of change, who are going to be my best cheerleaders, right? If it's, if it's a tech change, if it's a skill change, I need those people who are respected as the people who have the best skill. So I want to vet with them. I want to process with them. I want them to feel empowered to know that they are part of the decision of what's coming. If it's a cultural change, hey, we're showing up late. We're not giving the customer the best experience ever. Then I'm going to those cultural people and I do the same thing. But then we come to the point of a decision and I tell all of my clients, you have to be trusted. I don't mind being the bad guy. But the client, the owner of the company has to be trusted and respected, and you have to build that. That's not something that always comes, and sometimes they've already lost it by the time I get there. But we have to build that so that when you make a decision that people don't like, they still trust and believe that you're doing it for the sake of the company and for the sake of the team. And that's really hard, but it's something that me and the team leaders or the team owner has to really, then we have to push through. You have to be able to make that decision. True followers, true followers of our company will follow you even when you make a poor decision once or twice or a different decision than they hope for once or twice. So you have to have those trends of, hey, you know, I've made this decision, I believe in this decision, I want your buy-in in this decision, but give me 30 days. Give me six months, give me a year, and then we'll come back and see, did it actually result in what we hoped for? And I think sometimes that circle back also helps with teams when we don't just make a decision and then we complain about it for six weeks or six months, but we say, hey, the point of December 12th, we're going to come back and meet and see how did it go. And then that gives them a different level of buy-in because they can think critique or empower the decision that we made. Talk to me a bit more about when you have existing team members and you're trying to, you know, get that change happening at what point do you go, I can't teach an old dog new tricks. I think the easiest route is just to replace. I don't always think replaces the right thing because there will always be a generational thing where sometimes older members or sometimes newer members, sometimes, you know, different life changes with, you know, family growth with a passion growth will happen. If you have a team that is strong enough and this is the, in my personal opinion, this is the benefit and the joy of working with smaller businesses, boutique type businesses. We don't have to follow this corporate route of what the next position has to look like. So right now I'm working with a company up in Illinois and they have a team member that's been there for quite some time and he's nearing retirement, but he's not quite yet ready. Tech for job trade is hard for him, you know, communication is things are hard for him to develop. And we're like, what do we do because we're trying to teach this, this, this, this old novelty tricks, and it's not that he doesn't want to. I think that goes back to it to like maybe the want. It's not that he doesn't want to learn it, but it is just, it takes some time. He makes a lot of errors. So how do we shift his role to still bring benefit to the team? So we are slowly preparing him to be a trainer, to be one of the onboarding trainers for carpenters for, he talks to the, he's really, really great with the trees. How can he be more a part of the engagement with the tree? So I think sometimes clients that I have, when they're open to reforming a role that will make sense for that person in the team and it still has a expectation, you still have to bring profit or bring some type of clarity to the team. So we have to keep that KPI. We can't just keep people because they're loyal, but we can create something that makes sense for that person often, Tom. So you're kind of shifting the roles. I know that's like, I had this, I don't like five years ago. And it was like this whole idea of like a process over people in the sense, and as you can imagine, it did not land well with the rest of the team when I would make that statement, but it was all about like, look, just because you're here and you can do this one thing really well, I may not have a role for you, like it needs to be around like the process of how this stuff needs to go and like, how does it benefit the overall organization? Like, that's the most important piece, and then can we fit you into it? And it sounds like this is a little bit more of like, not necessarily like, what's your best skill set, but like it still has to, has to make sense here where if you look to this person and said, look, I got to be honest, the number one issue that we have as a company right now is we got to get everything in the job tread. And if that is not this person's role, it may make sense to then separate. You're not necessarily like saying, we're going to completely shift everything around it. It's more of like, this is what we have to, you know, is what we want you to do. If you can fit it perfect, if not, can we find something else that's still beneficial and it works out in their working genius, if you will? Yeah, but and I agree with what you're saying, process is important, and I'm not pushing back against it at all. I think what I'm trying to say is open and honest communication is vital. This person that where I'm speaking of up in Illinois, he is aware of this conversation. He knows that we're struggling through, where do you go? And I think oftentimes we have these conversations behind doors rather than with the person because we're concerned. They're going to quit. They're going to be complaining. Rather than saying there is a way to have this conversation effectively where they become a part of the thinking tank. And I like to say to my clients, allow an adult to be an adult, allow them to be an adult, let's have the conversation and see if they respond, if they, if we're going to let them go anyway, why not give them the chance to redeem this opportunity and say, hey, what if I do this? Now, I do with all that being said, Logan, I don't say let's change the whole process for one individual. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying through this process, you make yourselves campaigned, whomever that person is, to how you can make this work. And we'll see if that makes sense. And if it doesn't make sense, then let's at least let's at least leave in a space of respect that I gave you that opportunity that we've processed through it. And I think one of the most common things that I see and a lot of the clients that I work with or potential clients that I work with is that hesitation of having the real conversations that need to be heard with whomever that adot is. And even with this specific example, what if he had this conversation three years ago, what we'd be in the same situation that we are in now? If we would have told him, hey, three years ago, when we implement a job trade, we need you to be pushing forward. This is this is the future of the company. But because of the kindness, right, or I will say niceness because I think those are two different words. The niceness of the company owners, not wanting to force an old dog to do new tricks. Now we're in a situation where we're like, hey, we have to do something. This is not progressing. We've had to make hires to kind of resolve some of his deficiencies. So it's causing the company now because we didn't have that open and honest conversation three years ago. And how much would you say is niceness versus just like you're just kind of you're operating out of fear? That's semantics right there. You can choose however you want to use it. I do think fear is a huge factor and we cover it with niceness. We think being nice is the best route and specifically with me, with my team, with my family, with my friends, I believe kindness delivers truth as well. It delivers truth as well and it does it with compassion. It does it with grace, but it still does it. It doesn't run away from that truth that we need to give. So again, that goes to strategy. It goes to having a culture that trusts the ownership that knows that my goal is not to harm you, but it is to push for this engine that we're going for. And I want you to be a part however you have to make sure it makes sense each year that we do this. Yeah. I forgot the name of the book. It's a scavenger now, but I've referenced it several times. But like the very first chapter they talk about, basically she was like, yeah, I was a manager and there was this one person that they were super nice. We really liked him a lot, but they're work products sucked and eventually I had to, yeah, they were out of control. Yeah. Not Kim Scott. Yeah, Kim Scott. Is it Kim Scott? Okay. I keep getting that one. That's a lot of stuff, but it basically talked about that exact thing of like the work product sucked and they finally said, sorry, we got to let you go. The work product sucked and he was, that person was so mad because it was like, why didn't nobody tell me this? Like, I could have at least like, maybe, maybe you tried to fix it and it didn't work. But like, basically, it was like this whole frustration around it and that, that for me, it really helped shape how I've approached a lot of this stuff where it used to be like, if I bring this up, are they going to be mad at me? Are they going to be scared? Are they then going to like quit and say, fine, screw it. You build this website where you, you know, remodel this kitchen on your own. I'm out of here. And I've kind of had to learn more about like, people want you to do good, if you will. It's not necessarily like, well, I better screw them before they screw me situation. But that book was super helpful for that stuff. And to that point, Logan, I think it goes back to that preventative maintenance. You should always, as a company owner, as a department leader, find intentional times to build psychological safety belonging with your team so that when heart moments come up, all of that bank that you've been building in them, they trust it. They believe it. They hear you. Their ears are, their hearts are open. Whatever it is that you need to say is received better because it's different. It's me giving correction to my child and someone like random neighbor giving correction to my child will feel different. It can be the same exact direction, but one they have a connection with, one they have a trust with, one they have safety with, the other are like, I don't know if you're here to harm me, you know? So with my clients, one of the biggest things I also say is make sure that we're building that time to build again, that psychological safety and that sense of belonging so that they feel that the team is being considered not only when it's good, but also when the bat times come, we can still have those open and honest conversations. How do you do that though? Like in a realistic way, because I don't think Elon Musk is out there like building psychological safety with all of his employees. Sure. So like, how do you, how does somebody who's not naturally like a nurturer? If you will, maybe I'm off minds that was around this, but like, how do you do that? Yeah. Elon Musk also doesn't have a small business. So I'll add that, you know, a bit corporation, but I don't know if this should be the reference that I use, but there's a reference in scripture with Moses. If you know the story, Moses is over Israel during some of the biblical times. And Jethro, which is his father-in-law, says you need to create government somewhat, like smaller subcategories of people where you're then tasking those people to do those same things. And kind of translating that into. to our industry, the department head should be doing that, right. So that means if you are a design manager or production manager, are you spending time with your production managers? Are you a project manager, sorry? Are you spending time with your draftsman? Are you spending time with your estimators? Whoever is under your purview, spending time with them, and then the client, the owner, he or she should be spending time with the production manager. She should be spending time with the design manager so that that trickle effect will happen so that when the carpenter is making a mistake, it's not the owner who's coming to them to talk. Is there a project manager who's coming to them to talk? Because it seems like the project manager can handle that three to five people. So that's where that psychological safety has, and you have to test those different things to the different roles that are responsible for those that flock. That's something so much effort. Like I get it, like on paper, it's like you know you do as the owner to your direct reports, which are like the managers and the managers that go down, but like that's now like do you then have to babysit? And that's not the right word. I don't think that. Yeah, I don't think that, and I'll give a more manager boy experience. You know, if I don't know how many children you have directly, but I have four children, you know, if I had 12 children, that's a lot. To the four children that I have, I can give them time. I can create systems for intensive with my children. I have three girls in a boy. Each weekend, every Saturday morning, one of my daughters and I are going out on a date, on that the last Saturday of the month, my wife and my son goals out on a date. We are building the structure with the amount of children that we have. Things that are not, we're not being sentimental. We just know every Saturday morning, I'm doing this, right? So the same thing can happen with the project manager or with the designer. Hey, I have four people on my team. In the span of a month, I need to make sure I make some type of intentional moment with them, whether that be an email, hey, I haven't seen you in a few days just checking in, seeing how you feel. That small thing can I handwritten written note, small things like that that may take five minutes of our time, that builds that belonging and that psychological safety. Another way of building psychological safety is being vulnerable yourself, being open and honest. Hey, I made a mistake. That statement, to somebody who reports to you, gives them comfort to say I can also make a mistake. So I think going back to the statement of owners, we sometimes get overwhelmed, it's very simple. We don't have to take on the world. We just have to take on the portion that we were given. Unless you have a team of 12 people under you, then you probably can manage it. If you do have a team of 12 people under you, find those one or two people that are maybe the key leaders and then have them be the people responsible for the other 10 people on that team. So you still build that system up that allows for everybody to be known, seen and hurt. How much of this you need to have built out before you should go back out and try to like hire to put out whatever the fires you're dealing with are. I don't think you have to wait for that. I think you have to just be honest in the recruiting process. You know, you have to just be honest about where you're strong and where you're not. It's similar to, you know, where's your unique proposition is what people will say oftentimes. This is where I'm unique in the greatness, but because you're coming into this specific culture, I want to make sure I'm interviewing for the right person that can handle a disorganized manager or a direct manager. I'm recruiting right now as well for somebody up in Meena, Arkansas. And the conversation that they're open about is that project manager is quite direct to his carpenters and they don't stay around because they can't handle that pressure comfortable. I don't like that. We'll fix that one table. We still need a person. We can't stop. We still need a person to come in and do that work. So as I'm interviewing and processing, I'm vetting through the reality of what the company needs in this moment with the hopes that you'll be able to transform as we also grow in the company. And how how honest are people in the hiring process like are like I know we have started to shift way more into that of like we even set up like like we have a practical that like during our interview process yet to go through a practical and the practical is not like a here's a generic scenario. It is like here's an exact problem that we are dealing with right now. I want you to go out and solve it or talk about it or basically like show how this thing would go based off of a real life thing is are you when you're going in an organization are people typically like and their interview process or their hiring process are they open an honest around like what the scenario really is or is it more of just like let's bring somebody in and they'll kind of figure they'll figure out where that where all the skeletons are when they get here. Yeah it goes back to the niceness a lot of people are nice. They're nice in their interviews they're nice in their recruiting process they're not giving the truth in the process so that we can know this person's going to stay so they get the new hire because they sold a really great polished company and then the retention is affected because that person says in 60 days and 120 days hey this is not what I anticipated this is not what I expected if they even give you any information they may just leave so what I try to warn my clients is if we're not honest now they're going to find out it's like marrying someone you can date them all day long but once they start living in the home with you they're going to find out so let's be honest let's be honest before the marriage starts so that we don't waste time once it started that we're revealing things at that moment now does that mean we have to reveal all of the skeletons in the cross in the closet not necessarily but we do need to give a glimpse or at least a little summary of what they're coming into to ensure that they first trust us because they'll come in knowing that this company is honest but then also am I really going to be the best fit and I would rather you disqualify yourself now than me spend 30 to 60 days onboarding you and then you leave and I have to start this cycle again so if you want to disqualify yes not the best for me to see that but I would rather that now when we've not invested money into you and your development than later talk to me a bit more about the onboarding how structured does it need to be I'm sure you know role specific is different but like how much is it trial by fire versus like we're going to map out every 30 minutes on your calendar for the first you know 90 days what do you propose um yeah so I I remember when I first started doing this I mapped out every single I hour on their calendar and that was not realistic it did not make sense it was it was stressful to the new higher it was trusted you will go to the bathroom 11 30 yeah yeah yeah it was I was putting in moments like hey this is your lunch break it wishes a bit overwhelming for for for that person simultaneously I don't lean to the other option either of just trial by fire how do you know that they're succeeding which goes back to that clarity I I really actually go through this fall a philosophy is called the what is it called the gradual release gradual release of responsibility um and they follow three different steps I break it down into four but they're the initial method is three steps is I do we do and then you do very simple I think it's simple to toddler is simple to a client and we can kind of fill in the blank of what that looks like so the I do is pretty simple and self-explanatory I will show you I will do all of the assignment whether that be an estimator whether that be I have a example I can talk about with an estimator um or a designer or whomever it is I'm gonna have you watch me a certain amount of times I tell people that my number is minimum three that's a trend when you do things three times you start building trends so I want them to see what my trends are of the I do where they're seeing they're asking questions but they're not touching anything a lot of people skip that face right there because they'll do it one time and then they'll say okay you got it can you do it now and then we call the person out in a month or two when they're making mistakes but they didn't get a thorough ability just to watch and monitor some people just look some people take notes some people like recordings some people like notes whatever it may be but give them that I do stage right then you move to the we do I personally break them off into two spaces though we do first phase for me is I will still do it and you will help right so then I'll start you know processing through an estimate and I'll say hey what would you do here okay cool because you see me do it three times now minimum now you're seeing me kind of still doing it and I'm leaving the good discussion but I'm asking you what would you do here or did I do this right certain statements like that allows them to be engaged in the conversation of the we do but you're watching then we switch roles like this is where the training kind of shifts where they start doing and I start helping so as they're processing through things I may say hey did you remember do this hey did you notice this part oh man what if this happened I'm kind of putting a little bit of small hurdles in the process so that I can see how they're thinking and how they're walking through the process and where they get nervous or where the bottleneck happens in their in their in their process and then the final stage is I pretty much watch them they do the whole process and all I'm doing is watching I'm engaging if needed but that kind of takes us back to the we do together but I'm really just watching and analyzing are they moving in a fashion that I am pleased with and we do again minimum three times for each of those sections now a lot of my clients will say well what happens after that we've answered repeat if you notice that hey they're doing 80 percent of their job right but 20 percent isn't right we analyze where do we need to start do we need to show them again or do we just need to help them again and we go through that process throughout the engagement of those first 90 days until we feel that they have truly processed through every aspect of their job if you do that often enough you'll start having data and if you have data then you can say generally speaking they have to go through the seven times right of the eye show you right or generally speaking a good uh draftsman can go through this four times and at that fourth time if they've not done this I've I see that they're actually a little below average on whom I hi whom I whom I have hired in the past so if you do that often enough with certain positions you start getting a rhythm of knowing how do I break out this onboarding process and this training process for anything that we come into and when you're thinking about this for like a say a role where it's like we're going to have you do I do you're going to shadow me three times and it's an extensive process it's not like hey Hey, I'm just closing the books or something that's more like a finite thing. Let's say it's a project manager and you are, I don't know, you're doing custom homes. So are you saying great, I want you to follow me through the full process on this custom home three times which you may only do three projects a year. So at that point, you're basically just shadowing me for a full year before we start to do we do. Or you like, you know, are there like, I don't know, situations where it's like, I'm just gonna show you a full thing on one or we're gonna do this initial kickoff meeting three times, I guess like, I guess I'm trying to understand, when do you know this was enough because we just don't have that many at-batch at it. - No, that's a good one. And in the industry that we work in, we do post mortems, right? So that gives a really, really good stopping place. I'll give the example of a company down in Brentwood, Tennessee with their estimator 'cause I think this kind of falls into that space where estimating, you don't really know if you don't get job until the end of the job, right? You don't know if my number was right. So with this onboarding process, this company was really good at keeping post mortems and their archive lists together, which was a positive to their onboarding experience. So we wanted this specific estimator who was onboarded to go through 12 jobs. That's how we, that's just the number that we decided. We had never done this before, so we don't know if it was gonna work out or not. The first four jobs, sorry, the first three jobs were gonna be archive jobs, where they were gonna watch what the previous estimator, or he was the owner, the previous estimator, but what he had done, and they walked and they just studied it. That's all they had to do, study, report your findings, what did you notice, how did it feel? Oh, let's look at the post mortem, how did they end up? That was all they did. So that was somewhat of a completion moment. Then we did, though, we do it together. Same thing, we had him walk with this specific client 'cause an estimate isn't necessarily a sale. So they were able to do estimates that weren't necessarily translated to production jobs, but they were able to sell the process through it. So through that, the owner would do an estimate. He did about, I think, two or three a week. So he chose the two or three that were complex for that month, and he said, let's do that together. So he did the same process. We don't know what that's gonna be, but I know what you're thinking now. Like, I get to know how you're thinking through this estimate, maybe where you overshot, where you undershot, why didn't you remember this line item here? And then we continue. Now, this process is only what, six or seven months old. We haven't completed a job that he's actually done in the estimate four, but we know the data is saying that he's gonna be better on track than someone that didn't do any of this process, and when we do the post-mortem, we're gonna go right back to our autopsy, whatever you call it. We're gonna go right back to this situation and say, hey, how did it actually line up? Okay, cool. Now, let's make sure we make those adjustments here. - So it's almost like, you could like, I'm just saying, from a project management standpoint, the I do, if you don't do that many projects, you could give them almost like, hey, here's job tread. Look to this one person's account. I want you to notice and study basically the estimate, the, you know, like, now you can see the margins, now you can see what the client communication is. So you're almost like giving just historical data to the person to say, hey, maybe it's not three, maybe it's really 10, but we do have 10 projects, and that's enough data that you should start to see on your own the same trends that you would see as if we were doing three in person. - Exactly, and for those people who are listening that may say, well, I don't have that historical data, use job tread or build defend or whatever you use, use that to make a pseudo job, make a fake job, and have them measure, have them process through your building, your office may be, you know, their home give, we can be creative in how we do this, you know, every, everyone of my clients, I can't say every client, everyone of my clients have an office, has an office space. Let's think about the future of this office space. What if we wanted to remodel here? What would that look like? Give that to the estimator, give that to the project manager, let's build out a schedule, a pseudo schedule for that, and that's another way of practicing. Okay, now we've done that. Let's do your home. Do you feel comfortable with, you know, measuring out your home and doing the same process? And let's just be creative because, yeah, we can't all fit the 10 year organized company, but we can make it work for where we are. - I love that, 'cause it's like getting creative where it's not hamstrut. Now, it is effort of like, and we've done this before when we've hired like videographer, where it's like part of the application process is you have to actually submit a video application of yourself and that shows us first, can you film, can you edit, but then a big part of what we also wanted them to do was like know how to interview. So part of the interview process for them was they had to role play with us interviewing and we give them kind of crap answers. Like, hey, tell me why'd you turn your space for a model and it's like, I just didn't like it. And if they're like, great, let's move on to the next thing. You kinda knew like, maybe they're not the best interview style. So, I like that idea of just like, you doesn't have to be, you do it live on the job every time. You can create an environment that allows for it. But again, I guess you still have to as an owner, have the willingness to then go through that because it's, you know, it's the ounce of prevention and worth a pound of curious side of things. But you gotta be willing to put the ounce in. - Yeah, and the willingness is, where are you motivated by? Do you wanna do well in this company? That by yourself should motivate you to say, hey, I have the willingness to try this to see how it can result in a long lasting company that I have. - Love it. And last question around all this stuff, when it comes to the ongoing. So, you've gone through the initial hiring, then you go through onboarding. And assuming we did, you know, we had the right person with the right onboarding, how do you keep people in your opinion, like not fresh, but like motivated and engaged at work? 'Cause at some point, the honeymoon period goes away. And now it's like, great, you gotta like intrinsically love something. So, like, are there things that you are focusing on from an HR or from an up standpoint to keep the team role in the way that they should be? - Yeah, so, and the performance reviews, and I always recommend people to do performance reviews at least twice a year. Four times is great, but it's sometimes unrealistic. Once I don't think it's significant enough to show a change. But if you do it twice a year, and you can set those days, a lot of my clients will do January and July as kind of those phases for them. In the process of the, the performance review, at the end section, I try to make sure we push for a rock or a goal over the next three months or six months. What is something that would make you excited to come in on Monday? And how will that help us get to the company goal? So, of the year. So, there's two different rocks, our goals as you can put in. You can put one in that the company owner or the department lead enforces on the person. And I'm not against that. Sometimes you just need to, for instance, with the Illinois client that I was speaking of, one of that was learning job trade, studying job trade. That wasn't something he was excited for. There wasn't a lot of buy-in for. However, it was something that we needed. So, I'm not against giving goals that are not always favorable to the team member, but when you do have that opportunity to give them something like, hey, what if we created a marketing team right now, they're creating commercials, right? Commercials with their clients so that when we have testimonials, it's not just a written testimonial, but it's a recorded, they were excited about that rock. They wanted to do it. I didn't initially think that was a great idea, but now I'm like, hey, but that buy-in gave you a freshness to come in on Monday and be excited for me to hold you accountable in that space. And the thing about it is, with companies, we have to remember the goal is to have these people around for many, many years. So, for one quarter, they focus on something they love and that gives them a freshness for the next quarter. It's worth it. Because the next quarter, maybe you'll give them something that they don't love as much, but they'll appreciate that their mind was engaged the order prior. And sometimes we think we have to put everything we'll rock on them, everything that's so important in quarter four or in quarter two. And it's like, no, that's not the case. Let's just save that one. Let's save that one for the next one and give them some exciting work to do that they want to have buy-in. - Love it, 'cause I think I definitely, I put all the rocks very quickly. And I'm like, all right, everything's a priority and key force coming up, so get ready. So, I feel that one, so. Cool, Brian, how do people get in contact with you? Like, what's the best place to go to learn more about you and how you could specifically help them with their business? - Yeah, it's pretty simple. Website is www.solvethescore.com. I love doing discovery calls. I love processing through where your pain is, where you're trying to go in the company and see if there's a route. That doesn't cost anybody anything. It's just 45 minutes to an hour of just chatting a little bit about, hey, where you are and where you're trying to get you. So, that's my first recommendation, definitely. It's just to go to the website, look at some of the testimonials, look at some of the experiences, but then also, schedule some time to talk with me. - Love it, cool. Brian, thanks for coming on here. And I guess it's funny, I had a list of questions to go through as much as hiring a salesperson, but I think this is way better. So, this is awesome. I appreciate you coming on. - Yeah, thank you so much for having me. - Cool, thanks, man. (upbeat music)