#49 Natural wine - art or agriculture? Anders Frederik Steen and Anne Bruun Blauert

[Music] Welcome to Reinfang's new podcast series on Natural Wine. For those listeners who are already familiar with the Reinfang podcast, this theme might be a big puzzling. After all, our podcasts normally tend to the topic of the human mind, but interviewing scientists, authors and artists. What does Natural Wine has to do with this topic? For us, Natural Wine has everything to do with the human mind, ranging from the work in the fields, the verification and the drinking of it. We personally deep admire us, fascinated by the people who make it and the profound experiences these wines offer. Throughout the years, one question has returned to us again and again. Is Natural Wine an art form or is it merely an agricultural product? This is an intriguing question and we pose it to producers and importers of Natural Wine in the present series. This will take you on a journey around Europe between cities like those of Paris, Munich and to the countryside of southern France. In this episode, you will meet the wine makers, Anas for Xtain and Enipron Blouard, even though they're both Danish, Anas and Enetlyf and make wine in the small and old village of Elvenire in a dish, southern France. We completely fell in love not only with Anas and Enes buttles, but also with their approach and mentality about wine making. It was a great pleasure to visit the beautiful home in Elvenire where they live with their daughter, son and sweet dog. The wines are really amazing and very distinct. Personally, some of the best we have had in our lives, we cannot recommend them enough. Check out the link for Anas and Enes wines in the description for the podcast. And moreover, Anas has written a very inspiring book on wine making and wine drinking. You'll also find the link for the book in the description. We hope you enjoy the interview as we did. [Music] Okay, so, and then Anas, we are sitting in France right now in what region of France I mean? We are in a region. It's not very known, it's called Adesh. It's kind of a sub-region of the Roan Valley. So the Roan Valley is best known for the Northern Appalachians that are the very expensive, exclusive wines of Crosse Amitage, Amitage or these Chansaults-aux-Séves and Cout-de-Roune in the South. With a historical, I'd say, long history of producing relatively interesting wines but not very expensive wines. And we are situated roughly in between these two areas. Historically, very poor country. So, a little bit of wine growing because the soil, where the soil permits wine growing, we grow wine. But most part of the area here is for animals, for cheese production and for us. And that reflects also, I mean, the people living here, of course. And we're sitting in your home right now, which is this amazing stone house in a small village. Could you describe what kind of village is this? It's a very small village. There are three, four hundred, I think, put living here. But not here in the centre. It's a very small centre. But then I think there are only 40 people living. So, it's a very small village. There is a small school. There's a baker, one hotel, sometimes two, when the other one is open. So, it is a very small village on the countryside. Very old? Also very old. Very old, yeah. The whole valley while we are situated is, I mean, the first villages here are constructed by the Romans when they came. So, north from where we are, it's Albala Roman, with all the historical things of Roman Empire, whatever they build, theadres and all these things. And Valvignia, the village where we are, in Latin, it means a valley's vinegar. So, the valley of the wines. And the valley of not only the wines, the plant, but also the wine itself. So, the product, the liquid, I would say, the product wine. And, well, a village carrying this name explains that it's a place where one production has been taking place for a very, very long time. And actually, our house and the church, just next to where we live, is roughly 1,100 years old. Maybe the village is older, I'm not good at that, but it's not at least a wine way we are. But it's also old enough, I think. And the vineyards, actually, like you, were close to the city, all the villages, of course. Yes, there are all around the village, but also, you say, a little bit outside the village. And the hillside? Because I think the main production here in this village is wine growing. Some people are growing wines to the Gulf of Covert, where you grow wine, you sell your grapes, and they make wine out of it. And then there are some wine makers, mostly organic wine makers and natural wine makers. So, I think maybe 90% of the people living here are living of wine production and growing or wine making. That's kind of the sense. So when did you move here? We came in 17, so six years ago. But before we came, others, he started, you can explain that, maybe better than I, but we started in 13 coming here and making wine and just traveling back and forward between Copenhagen and Belgium. And then I think in 16, we started talking about if we should do something else in our life. So we saw this as an opportunity to make a life change also, because we wanted another balance between our work life and also our family life. So we saw that we have an opportunity to go somewhere where we have a purpose to go, not just where we want to go, but we saw that we could move here, we could actually do something for a living. You knew someone, you knew, several before we came. So it would not be like a shift where we moved to nothing, where we didn't knew anyone. And at the same time, we were not interested in moving a place and do office work again. We wanted to really make something different. And also you wanted to, as you started this in 13, just as a fun project to see how it is to, so it was also a way to see, okay, can we go further with this? But it also meant that we had to be here. So that's why we decided to go in. And then we were like, okay, we're going to see the first year. I had, from my job, they said, okay, if it doesn't work, you can go back after a year. And then after a year, we were like, okay, then I received the mail from my boss saying, are you coming back? I was like, then we totally forgot to answer. So we were like, okay, maybe that means that we are settled here and we're good. So we decided to stay. We started, I mean, and partly explained it, when we started in 13, I came here already in a few years early in 2008, and then I went to buy wines for Copenhagen. I was importing wines and I was a restaurateur in Copenhagen, so I wanted to buy natural wine into Copenhagen, actually. And that's why I came in the first place. And in 13, I wanted to dig deeper into natural wine and deeper into the production of wine. My purpose for that was simply to become a bit of a sumer year. Actually, I wanted to know, to better understand the wines. So I thought if I could make one or two of integers, it would be an interesting way to get into the practical part of the wine. I only knew, I can say, new wine. it from the part where it was either fermenting juice or finished wine in bottle. So I needed to explore the steps before that. So 13, 14 was mainly about doing as many different kinds of vinifications and all these things as possible to learn and to understand. And as many other things that you dig into, you get, I don't know, say how you get eaten by it, you get absorbed by the passion of just learning and the curiosity. And it was exactly the same feeling I couldn't let go. So instead of letting go of the wine making, I let go of everything and go ahead. And by going back and forward in 13, 14, 15 and partly 16, I also saw that the wines we made, they were driven very much by the curiosity of making them. But the quality of the wines only, from I at least think that, for my own personal ambitions, they only reached a certain level. Because the lack of time I spent here, the little time, even though I spent a lot of time here, I didn't spend the full year and I could only push the wines to a certain level. And I wanted to go further. So I remember we talked about it in 16 and it was either quitting the wine making or going more into it. And as I just mentioned, we wanted this change. So and the business was here and we had already a thing rolling. So it was also an easy decision, an easy solution to something that we wanted to do. And also the fact that 13, 14 was wines I made with a friend of that time. And I had a few years in between and came on board where I was only myself in the wine making. And this way of working alone was not really pleasant, I think. Not that I didn't like it, but I only talk about myself in this point, but I think it's more interesting to work when you are two or three or four than alone. So for me having and with me in this project was a very natural, I mean in the beginning, a very natural desire idea. And now that she's been here and we've been doing this together for six years, it's a completely natural thing. We discuss everything, we make the things together. It's, it can be in the cellar or in the vineyards or whatever, it's decisions and the things we do is constantly in both of our minds. I mean, and that's a big privilege, I think. You often see it with writers or artists or musicians and they grew up and they lived together with their partners of course and they share Michi and French, I don't know how to say that. The work life, they share their work life with their partners and often this way really becomes interesting. It's people that can, they live of their passion and they constantly discuss what they're doing. And yeah, it's demands a lot for a couple, I think, to do that, but it's also very interesting because you have, you have a work partner that you can trust 100%, you know, you never need to think about if it's, if it's one eco or the other eco or it's one idea is better than the other idea. All these things that can create problems between people working together and you are a couple, you, I consider ourselves not one person but one unit in some way. So it's much more free and format. Yeah. Yeah. When you move from coming, you, and the artists, we really been, what you work with, but did you, did you work with Warren, with the whole? No, no, no. I worked in the Danish prison and probation service. Yeah. And, or I also worked at the hospital, I was as a social worker. Yeah. So it was completely other work life. Yeah. And so coming here, I didn't, I actually didn't knew anything about making wines or I, I just like drinking wine. And, and of course, I knew some, because you have been speaking about it and you've been making it since 13, but I think when we lived in Copenhagen, our work life was very separated. He had ease and I had mine. And yeah. Yeah. So it was not, so for me, deciding to quit my job and to do something completely different, I think, it's not only the wine, it was, it was also that we had the opportunity to create a business on our own. We had the possibility to work outside, not sit in an office, and, and also to have another structure in our lives. And then I just had to learn it a little bit. But I, I think, sometimes I, I know we speak a lot about how we work and what we do and in, but I think it's funny how you have your educational background with you and how solid it is because that's the big difference between us that I, it is, it is your, yeah, because it is your, the way you have been working your whole life, it's the education and I don't have it. So that is a big difference between us and the way we think. But sometimes I think it's also a good thing for us because the natural wine or just maybe the wine drinking wine can sometimes make people a little bit insecure, I think, sometimes because you think, "Oh, does it taste of nuts or pineapple or what do I think? Do I like it?" And so I think it's been, we had many discussions like that, like, I'm like, "Why can't I just drink it?" And if I don't like it, I don't like it. And then I don't care if it tastes like nuts or pineapple or cherries or whatever. So I think in that way we, it is a good, it gives a good balance, I think. And then there has been a lot of things that we had to learn from, from scratch, both of us, like driving a tractor and, programming or practical stuff, but also just running a business in France, it's not always that you see, but we manage. But it's sure and has a good point because I have a very theoretical background in wine. I worked as a chef and Summullian Copenhagen, but I also did a very classical school of wine in London for several years. And of course, as you say, and it has another, with my background, I have maybe another more classical approach to knowledge in this, in our field, but combined with all the things and don't know, I think that is the interesting part because we can be, she can allow herself to ask very honest, new questions, where I, in some way, have to pretend to know what I mean because I'm educated and this stuff. So I should know. So even unconsciously, you stop asking some questions because you either think you know it or you think you should know it or whatever. When you don't know nothing, you can just go into whatever question and ask it very, how to say, "Mave" in some way. But I think there are many levels in wine making because it's not just what is the final product. Is it a good wine or a bad wine? I think I had learned and also I really have deeply respect for the wine making because it's so, so many things can go wrong in the process. So you really need to know a lot of things, I think. I mean, it's not just picking grapes, putting them to a price and then in a queue and then that's it. I think there are a lot of. And also you, I don't know, I think maybe for us it's been also very important to, to, how do you say, to, to know what we want to produce and what kind of wine we want to make and what kind of wine we like to drink ourselves. So that's that we talk a lot about. But it's also been very important for us to make wines in a high quality. So. and keep our production small and I think when you say high quality it is also a way of talking about wine that can confuse people a little bit because what is high quality? is it burgundy wine, is it champagne? is it whatever? all these high end? it could be high quality wine but at least for Anani when we talk about high quality of course it's the product itself has to be of a quality that that is high, has to be a good wine but I think that. but behind all these things there's also the production of the grapes how it's. the quality of the grapes and I think we also work a little bit more holistic in that way because we also think the way we. how are the conditions for employees, how are the conditions during harvest, how are the conditions when we work and so we think that all that has an impact on the wine making and also the result in the bottle so. yeah so for us the high quality wine also represents organic grapes grapes grown in a way treated in a way that is responsible to the environment but also having the team of harvest people paid correctly serving them lunch there's so many aspects in these. it's this definition of high quality wine if you go to burgundy it's a group of harvesters that comes from Northern Africa or Eastern Europe, they paid five euros an hour they live on a conditions that is not good enough and I think it's sad actually because it shouldn't be like that and we cover up things that are supposed to be great organic wines, high quality wine, whatever you like to call it and behind the label or behind the glitter of the production but that's not a reality and people tend to forget that at least the producers tend to forget to talk about it and the customers they. when they don't know about it they have. it's difficult to ask these Christians and get the knowledge about it so that's at least for us and the group of people we're working with here is something that we value very very much and try to. yeah, there's a big thing for us that has to be done correctly and it's also what reflects our wines and said just now that for us there's also the purpose of the wine making in some ways it's. we sell our wines all around the world and it's. it's not. I don't want to make it sound like a Robin Hood business but the thing is we take the money from. from Japan and New York and Los Angeles and whatever big city and country around the world we bring it back to our little region here and we can pay young people that are unemployed we can sove lunch for the people and during harvest and pay them correctly we can. we grow our own grape or we also buy grapes in other wine makers places and we can pay a correct price without discussing this so they also can pay their employees correct and so on this. there's so many layers of this that altogether makes a more. I think it's just about decent. decent. to. to. to be honest about this and we often. sometimes we. you have to go to bed to go to sleep without having a pain in your stomach or stress or. and I think for us it's about being decent and I think in this area I don't think we see a lot of problems with it but. how they. I think it's more in other areas yeah these values and principles that you have them in mind before we move to here or if I sound away you produce grapes and the payment of the workers and what did you develop them when you came here? I think we always had it with us as people and also in our previous work life I mean you. you had two restaurants and I know you struggled a lot with it because the. the restaurant scene in Copenhagen is not always that beautiful and I think me coming from my background working with a lot of young people or adults with a lot of social problems I think. but it's not only because of that I think it's. you. you treat people with respect and you get a lot of things back in return I think it's that simple so I think for us it's been important to. to have a business and also grow wines and a production that is. that is true to who we are also in our family life and in general and I think we're lucky that a lot of other people in this area are. has also the same way of thinking but also a lot of people here like to take a social responsibility and I think it's. I think that's very important so. and I think maybe for the wine growing a lot of things has developed. bit by bit, don't you think? Because we didn't know anything actually about that how to. we've. to work the soil, to treat the wines, to. do we want to. I think when you come from the outside and we're not. don't have any family, we don't have a father telling us what to do which is the case for a lot of wine growers here in the area we could do what we wanted, we could be like outsiders being a little bit stupid and so we could ask ourselves the questions do we want to drive the tractor ten times a year? do we want to work the soil, do we want to treat with sulfur, do we want to. lift the grass grow as high as we want and because. Yeah, we had alternatives because we. I think with our position as answer from being from another place and born here we didn't. we. we created our own business we didn't have parents or grandparents or whatever that handed it over to us so that. with that comes a lot of freedom actually it might seem to be the other way around when you are given something by your parents it gives you a freedom but it's also you. you also. I think you also have to continue in. or they feel they have. they need to continue in the same way of working in the same way of. also living so it can be very difficult to say, okay now we will try to do something else but. but at the same time it's true we had the freedom to do what we wanted and to create it like we did but we also had to hear a lot of things about it so sometimes like oh. that's the super curious part yeah you know so I remember one time I. we heard someone say "have you seen Andersen and Mrs. Place? it looks like it looks like a mess" it looks like they're not working the video? yeah the video in French you have a way of talking about us they say it because. and that means it's like. how can you. how can you say it? in French you also say about vineyards that are. you know cell means they are dirty dirty yeah they're dirty and it means that. that are grass and plants growing in the vineyards if you can't see the soil, wine growing has to be a monoculture if you ask a good wine grow have to be wine plants, naked soil you can either work the soil or you can use pesticides or hung up or whatever you want to kill everything except the vine if you do that you're a good farmer you get up in the morning, you start your tractor you go back to the plant and say "well when the equals can see that you work" when you go home in the evening people see you have been working we did it the other way around with the. with the. the principles and the ideas from permaculture we started to. we started to stop I don't know how to say that sentence we stopped working the soil and we started to leave the plants and the grass and so on and the flowers and all these things in the grow in the vines and that brought with it it brought a lot of diversity in terms of insects, birds, other animals and so on and also we saw that the soil was changing in terms of less. it was less dead and more alive anyway and in the beginning it was a very complicated process because the herbs and the grass that I were growing were too much. -completion to. -Yeah too much. It was too powerful. And since I think one year, one and a half years, it started to change. And it's not similar to a jungle or a forest. We're not at that level. But the balance between the plants, different plants, it's now more equal in a way where the vines is just one of them. And then there's the flowers and the little tree behind whatever, and to collect all these things. And it started to create another balance in the soil. And that actually has now helped us to also do the treatments of the vines. That is a big issue in wine growing, because normally you treat the leaves and the grapes and the plants in general with a lot of products. If you do conventional chemical production, you can use many, many things. Very horrible things. And if you are organic or by dynamic wine growing, you can use copper or sulfur or many other things. And all these unnatural things since two years, two and a half years, depends on different products. We took away all these things. And I now only using saltwater extraction of herbs, lacto-fermentation, do special kinds of tea sand. So it's like a tea of different plants in specific periods, essential oils, stuff like that. And that is working as a preventive treatment against the. The idea is to see the plant as a human being. So the more healthy you are and you're more strong you are. And if you get sick, then you don't get as sick as if you don't. You manage to resist it. So that was the idea of changing it, because also we saw that a lot of diseases during the summer and also in the spring time, they were occurring here in the area. And the solution is often, OK, then we just treat more with more products. So. And then we were thinking, how could we prevent that situation in our place? But the thing is that it's also so difficult to compare it to others because our vineyards are very isolated. So we don't have any neighbors who are treating with chemicals, for example. So it's difficult to say if there is an impact of that or not. So at the moment we don't have any diseases, but we never know because that's changes from year to year. Did you say, "What were the points or did you plant?" We are renting. So. When we took it over, they have not been worked for a couple of years because the owner died. So when we. they were like. they were not abandoned, but they were in a very bad condition. But I think we. I think maybe sometimes it also how, and I work and how we go to. Like buying this house, it was a ruin, OK? Then you can create it in the way you want it, because no one. As put a window where you don't want it. So I think that's. So we were like, OK, this is bad. It can only be good from here. So. and so the first couple of years it was a lot of work, very hard work. And I think now we are. We are at a place where we can say. So it's that there are in a very good condition now. OK. So it's a different flow from you now? Yeah, yeah. It is definitely a different flow, but also we learn a lot during the last years. I think when we started just pruning, when we pruned, we were working slow, because it was like, OK, do we cut here, do we cut here, what do we do? Now after four seasons we are like. So I think there is. I think we are getting more and more comfortable, and we also know what's coming. We didn't knew that in the beginning, because we didn't have the experience. And also because they were in a bad condition, so we didn't knew if it would be good or if it would stay in that way. So. and no one else wanted them. So. That's why we took them. But I'm glad we made that decision, I think. What's also. I think been interesting from moving from buying grapes as we did in the 13 until 17, and in 17 starting to grow our own grapes, was to. I mean, when you buy grapes, you go pick them and you bring them back to your cellar, you do the verification, and you can close the cellar, and you can leave. And that's it. It's quite easy way to make wine, but when you grow your own grapes, you also need to adapt and accept that it's nature taking the lead. And you are there to follow in some way. Sometimes you walk a little bit ahead, sometimes you run a little bit behind. And that's also, I mean, at least for me, it's been one of the big learnings in moving out of Copenhagen, out of the restaurant business, where it's from 6.30 in the evening until 2 o'clock in the night, and then you close and you go home here in the spring. But the wines they also grow on the Sundays. And they also grow after four o'clock in the afternoon. So if you don't move, if you don't work in the same tempo as the wines, but you get behind, or if you work too fast, but you miss something or you do things, you need to be very much in the same rhythm as nature. And I think also the way we have decided to work, you really need to be present. When you work preventive, you really need to be there to see, okay, now it's. Because the problem is if there is a disease, you can lose a lot of your harvest, and that's not what we're interested in. It can also affect the quality of the grapes. So. Yeah, so. Yeah, just being there. So, when you are out there, do you have that? I know a big question, but do you have. Can you have these moments where you feel like a very spiritual connection to the grapes or are you very in a work mind all the time? How would you. I guess it can be many different things. Yeah, but spiritual, I'm not sure, but emotional. I talk for myself at least very much. I. In 2021, we had a big health storm that ruined our vineyards completely. They took away all the grapes, all the leaves, everything. It was very, very violent. And I felt it just after the health storm, there was a big emotional thing, but maybe the more logical part of me saying, "You lost the harvest, what's going to happen with the economy and all these things." And several months after, there was another wave of emotions again, because you started to see the plants, how much they suffered actually. From. It was 15 minutes of health storm. So it's still now, two years after, we see a lot of damage in the vineyards because of this. And when you work with plants, as if you work with animals or people or whatever you work with, you get a connection. And it's not necessarily spiritual for me, but it's very much emotional. I think it's like you see a kindergarten teacher experience, one of the kids in the kindergarten being beaten at home. She will also be emotional, affected by this. I imagine. I hope otherwise this should do something, but I imagine they will. And the same goes, at least for me, when we're moving around in the vineyard and you see stuff. And now these days, since three weeks, the almond tree started to be in flower, the cherry tree started. Now, you see nature is now starting. First gear, second gear, they started. The beginning of the spring is in a slow start. And for me, this also brings feelings. And I know now, we will soon be attacking the spring and it will be a busy period and there will be a lot of these energies. And I get a little bit excited about it. And I think that's the pleasure of being in the vineyards, in the way we are and as much as we are. Because of course, it's physical, hard labor, but it's just part of it. The pleasure of being there, you start to observe nature differently when you are there. And it's also the same spot every day. We go into a forest and the next day we go on the beach and the day after we go to the mountains. We go every day to the same vineyards and we see the same things. We started to, you know, there's a, there's a, a perusia, I don't know how to say it in English. There's a couple of birds. And and we see them several times every week. And they become our neighbors. That's a small stupid thing, but it's a very rich thing to experience, I think. And the same goes for the graves, when we close into, getting closer and closer to harvest, all these Christians about when to harvest, what to harvest, what to do with the graves, and in what way should we do the vindications, should we do direct press, mesoration, pick them now, wait one week, all these things. There's one part, reflection, another part, intuition. And then the last part is very much an-and-a-ay talking, and being, okay, now it's there. Now you taste the graves, they are tasting so great, so it has to be now. And then we will figure out what to do with them, because it's impossible to explain to anybody, but it's, yeah, you know when they're there, you put them in your mouth, and you taste something, and it's giving you like a musical feeling, some people, they listen to a piece of music, and they don't care about it, they just, okay, it was another piece of music. And you, for example, you sit in your car, whatever, and you listen to a piece of music, and you start to laugh or start to cry, and you, it's the same, it's something you can't explain, but it's there, it's an emotion, and it's a feeling that is so instantly present, and you just need to follow it. And that is something I had to learn, and also learn to adapt, and also accept, I think that's, at least for me, been the hardest part of not being a restaurateur and start being a winemaker, is because you lose control every day, you lose control, and winemaker is a very bad word for what we do because we're not making anything, and actually we, we, we, we observe what's going on, and we, we get the grapes in, and we start to help, the grapes to be wine, but basically, we can't say it becomes wine by itself, because it's not true, we, we, we have a lot to do with the making of the wine, but it's not us making them only. It's also the, the following part, the, yeah, the wines appear by themselves a little bit, and that's also a magical thing, you, you, you grow grapes during a year, you know, you take that, the, yesterday evening, when you came into the village, we, we've been putting on gride, fertilizers from, from chickens and some other herbs, into the vineyards, and these fertilizers has an impact this year. A month ago, we, we, we put in some things from sheep's, and the impact of this will only be seen next year. So we already now, this winter, started to prepare for 24, and when we harvest 24, it will be several weeks of working in the harvest, and then one year, two years, three years in the cellar. So now we're in 23, winter 23, and the harvest of, of 24 is already in the making, and it's not even in battle yet, it will be even in battle in five years maybe. So that's also the long term thing of wine, is that it's, every day, it's decisions and choices you make, and the impact is so long, and, and that is, I mean, that's what I think is the most interesting part of this. The most interesting part of wine making is that you, you just take a step back, and you accept your ego as a maker, it's not the most important thing. It's the product itself, and the quality of the product, and the solid product, how the wine is becoming a wine, and then sometimes you need to accept that, okay, it goes a little bit to the, to the left or to the right, and that wasn't what you imagined or what you wanted, but whatever, it found its own way to be something beautiful anyway. And, yeah, it's, it's quite special thing, I think. It sounds really special, you must have a very intimate bond with the seasons, of course, and nature. So, we've spoken with the mother, people who say that they can actually, so this is a big, perhaps a bit dark topic, but that they can feel climate change in seasons, can you feel that here? Can you, are the seasons more dramatic? You mentioned the halo storm, or is that, has it always been like this in the past? I don't know, the six years we have been here, it's been dramatic every year. (laughter) We have had earthquake, heat wave, too much rain, and then. No rain at all. No rain at all. So, we have a halo storm, tornado, we had like, and maybe it's because of climate changes, I don't know, they say, people who have been living here, always say that they feel that, they can feel it's getting warmer and warmer. Okay. So, and the summers are warmer and warmer, and then, and they also say that there is less water in the rivers, and they remember when they were young, they could go to the rivers and swim all summer. Here you have water until the end of June, and last year it was very, very difficult, because it was in Europe, it was like the. Dry, tea and fine, in 50 years. And I think, I think the area is still suffering, and everyone is afraid that if we have one more summer like that, how, where are we gonna go? And also because there is less water. And so, I think it's. It's probably because of the climate changes, but I think. I think sometimes, we have to do something about the climate changes, that I think we all agree about, but I think sometimes it's also a question about how we consume things. Sometimes the solution now here, how we talk about it here in this area is, how can we get water? How can we get more water? Can we take some water from from from from from from from the biggest river here? Instead of asking ourselves, why do we have less water, and what can we do to adapt to that situation? Do we need to grow differently? Maybe we just need to drink less? I mean, produce less. But, and I think that's a very. Maybe I think, us growing organic, we we think more about the things like that, but we also live in a next to conventional bank growers who, who just want to make a pipeline to get water directly here. And then we just can aim to another river. So I think, yeah, I think that could be great if we could talk about in that way, I think. Because it is about all the time, how can we. I think also with natural wine, that now the. people just want more and more natural wine, and that we are happy for that, because it also means that people want to be responsible, and they want to drink something that's made in a responsible way. But it also means a higher level of production, and it can be managed that, or. We often say. I think it's a way of. Sometimes, yeah, it's. It's okay with less, I think. Yeah, but it's surely better. But we want to keep the same level, or we want to have more. Natural wine, I think, is a topic that is very discussed at the moment, what is natural wine and so on. But one thing I think for sure is natural wine is that you. if we exclude the part where it's the actual wine, where if you see natural wine as a concept of. how do we say a bouquet of opinions? Natural wine represents, for me, the respect of. not only what is now, but also what was before. And I think natural wine is very much giving that solution to many of these problems that we are facing today, like organic growing, like biodynamic agriculture, in many levels, in production of meat, or vegetables, or fruits, or whatever, in agriculture in general. The natural wine respect the status quo of where we are, and, as Anne just said, I think that's the beautiful part of what we're doing, is that we can actually easily turn up and down our production, depending on what is possible. Also, because the wines are sold as they are, people are interested in buying them, and so on. The biggest problem in agriculture and general and wine growing in this area is that the price for the grapes, that the conventional wine growers are paid, per kilo is solo, that they are forced to produce a lot. Per hectare. So, the only way they can survive is to produce a lot of wine. more and more and more every year. And that means that you don't grow organic because. It's not possible. Just an example is a stupid thing, but it's about numbers. We produce between 15 and 25 hectolidus per hectare. So it's roughly 3000 bottles per hectare at the most. Some conventional winemakers do up to 200 hectolidus. So 10 times more per hectare than we do. And you could only do that if you put water in the vineyards. If you kill everything that is not supposed to be there, except the wines. And it makes the plant suffer a lot because it has to produce a lot. It's like you demand of me to walk 5 kilometres every day. And the guy next to me has to run 50 kilometres every day. When one week is gone, I'm still in a good physical condition. The other guy will be tired because he runs 1.5 miles every day. It's not possible. And the same goes for the vine. And the same goes for the soil. And the nature around it. And it starts to make an unbalanced. That is now so extent because it's not only in winemaking. It's also in all the other kinds of agriculture and all the other kinds of industry. That we use too much. And instead of drinking one bottle, we have to drink a 5 litre of back-end box of cheap wine. And we buy two breads at the baker instead of buying one bread and eat another. And it's just a way of thinking where when this tea cup is broken, I float out and I buy a new one. Because it's easy to get a new one. Instead of taking care of it and save it and buy a better quality or I don't know whatever. I mean, I don't have the solution just in front of me, but I think to go back to nature wine is that with making nature wine, we take a step back and we think more of how the things were done than how they should be done in the future. So the answer to the problems that we face today, we search in the past instead of looking into the future and saying, "Okay, we do a pipeline from the whole river. We create the hybrid graves, we cover with the plastic stuff and have helicopters flying all over the place to get the verse away. Instead of doing all this, we adapt what's going on. As they would do 200 years ago, I don't want to sound as a medieval farmer that is walking into the vineyards with my donkey, but it's not. It don't has to be that old and that old-fashioned thinking, but we need to respect that moving forward is not always forward. It can also sometimes be looking a little bit over the shoulder and see how things were done before. And the river is drying out. It's because we use the water, because the water is still running from the mountains and it's because it goes elsewhere. And it creates a problem for us. So we have to change something. And I think it's going to change into something that was there before, honestly. [Music] [Music] So in this bigger perspective where you. when you're currently working in this bigger time picture, is there an aspect of this where you feel like you're working in a specific tradition of making wine in the cellar. For example, do you feel totally free from the wine tradition of this area when you arrived? Did you have a feeling that you had to make wine in the cellar of the verification in a specific way or did you just. No, not at all. It's very much linked to what I've said before with the parents or the grandparents being on your shoulders all the time. We didn't have that. And when I started in 2013 and when I started making wines together in '17, it was very much driven by curiosity, exploring as much as possible, but also trying to do things differently. And later on also simply making the wines that we want to drink. We don't think so much of the market where they should be sold because it's impossible to please everybody. And it's much more fun to. and interesting to make the wines that you want to drink yourself. And also it becomes to represent who you are in some way, in some extent at least. And I mean, our way of making the wines is changing all the time. Actually, we don't repeat ourselves in any rules for what we do. Except of the dogmaa we just talked about organic things, labour, all these things. But the actual verification is very, very simple things. We work everything by hand. We de-stem all the grapes. We press directly, mix, mass-orate, do things. It's all done by us. And it's all done by hand. And from there on it can change a lot. We never made the same wine two times. And now it's been almost. almost, it's been 10 vines just now. So it's quite a lot of wines that have been made. If you look at 'Single Puebis', and we've never made one, one two times. And it's also liberating in some way that you can. But I think also in the beginning it was not always our choice because we didn't. since we were buying grapes in the beginning, we didn't. It was not possible for us to say, "Okay, we would like two tons of mellow syrup because we had a recipe we wanted to follow." So we were very like, "Okay, this is what we can get from this wine bro. So this is what we can work with." So I think that. so we had to adapt to that condition. But I think it gave us the years after it gave us a freedom because we were not dependent on that we could have that quantity of that and that we could just okay fine. We see where it goes. Yeah, and why making this often tied up to the terroir? So we go back to Berkendia as we started talking about, but it's this very known, very expensive parcels. The Pinot Noir from this, the Shadon Ae from this area and so on. And here we have a complete liberty in some way. And it's a way to. I often say when we talk about our wines that they represent a moment in our life because it's like a written piece of paper or text for somebody or a piece of music for somebody or a painter making a picture. They produce the same style of expressions all the time, but it's changed constantly. I think our wines can. the same can be said about our wines. They have, in general, the same expression in some way, all of them, more or less, but they are different because they one was made in one year, the next one was made in another year. In 19, we wanted to make some wine in a lighter way because it was super warm. So we wanted to drink white wine, so we all wanted wine. Basically, from 19, it was lighter wine. In 18, it was raining, so we have a little bit more stronger wines. So if you see them as products of our pictures, I don't know how to say it, but moments in our life, I think it's a more precise description, actually. Can you describe what you think that the wines have in common? Or is it that thing that's beyond language, sort of like all these different things? There was one asking the other day, "How would you describe your wines to someone who never had, who don't know you?" It's very difficult, I think, to. It was very difficult for us to make that because what I can easily say, "Ah, that's a real. Vril and Pepe Young wine or Mord wine. And when we know you're from the area because we know them and we often talk about, for the new wine makers, that they need. They will find their identity during the years because it's not there in the beginning. And with that, it means that when you drink a wine, it's nice to say, "Ah, that wine, that's from Mord, it's really Mord." No, it's really in Marie-Land, she has a theme. But I don't know, but maybe it could be interesting if we ask someone what they were making. I don't know, but I think. I'm not sure I'm bad to do that. I don't know if we would like to know it, but I think it's. I don't know. In some way, I hope that when people drink it, they can recognize if they know us, but not everybody knows us. It's not that, but how it reflects who we are. But for me, it's not because we disagree, but I think you are more practical thinking. I like to drink wine that makes me feel good or tastes good in good company with good friends and family. That's fine for me. Of course, I also. I don't know, it's difficult to answer the question. But I can answer it. I can maybe come. I'm not completely afraid, but it's not what I went to, but add something to it. Because Anna has a good point. She likes the wines that are in a very positive way, said simple. So, all say wines, light red wines, white wines that are pleasing to drink, pleasant to drink. And myself, I also have. I really want to make wines that are pushing the edges. So, I mean, for most of our wines, the most important thing for us, at least I talk for myself and concept what it is, she wants. But for me, the most important thing is the complexity of the wine. It has to be flavour-wise and structure-wise playing as many levels as possible. And it has to be not only flavour-wise, but also intellectual, has to feed you when you drink it. It has to start something in your body or in your brain or in your emotional system. It has to trick something. Otherwise, I think I missed out. Some people get it, some people don't. That's the game. That I respect and understand. But what I really need from the wines is that I get these things myself. I want to be moved emotionally when I taste my own wines. And also, it can be good and bad. Because in the cellar, we have wines that I think are very horrible at the moment. They will be good one day, but I don't like them. And when I pass by them, I have a hard time with them. I taste them. Sometimes I just walk by and I know the barrel are there. And I know they don't taste good. Maybe they taste good for some people, but I don't like it. And these emotions also force. they're also giving you positive, positive, force to move forward. Otherwise, I'm completely in luck with them. I could go down in the cellar, I could drink a half a bottle every day without a problem. I can't do that because then there will be nothing left when we should bottle it and I will be nothing to sell. That will be stupid. But that's what is driving this passion of making the wines. the best wine in the world. But not understood as the best wine compared to all the other wine makers, or winning a competition. It's not in that way, but the best one in my world. I want to push the wines as far as I can. And I. opposite to Anne, I think. I have no problem pushing them out further out than the edge of where the wine should go. I have no problem if they fall down in the open space of where wine is no longer wine, or where they don't taste good anymore. For me, it's okay because we went all the way out there. And if they fall and it breaks and it becomes complicated, the experience was good enough for me. But playing safe and staying 50 meters from the edge, because the wine is still nice and we don't risk anything here. It's so boring to me. That is a part of what we do I cannot accept to do, because I think it's not feeding me. And it's stupid to say it because what I like most about other wine makers is this style of wine. I have a huge respect for. we have friends, wine makers in the village. They are so strong and intelligent wine makers and skilled in techniques. And they make so safe wines. Their wines are perfect every time. And I'm very fascinated about it. I can't do it myself and it doesn't interest me at all. I love their wines. I am very fascinated about what they do, but I couldn't copy it into my own cellar. In our way of working, it would be. I will. It's just the fact that we should make the same wine every year. Over and over and over again. But the same name, the same assemblage of grapes, the same teowach. It's just a thought of it. It ties me out. It doesn't interest me at all. So it's a very. It's a way of expressing what we are doing. I think there are different kinds of way of producing. People talk about wine being artistic or not artistic. And a culture product or something more philosophical or whatever. And there are so many layers of this. But I really see with the wines as our media, our little box in a garden where we step on it, step up. And we can say stuff either with words on the labels or as flavors in the wines. We can communicate to people. And we can send the bottles to Tokyo and New York and Mexico City and whatever they go. And people will not listen. They will drink our message. And I think they will get it. The people that are prepared to understand it, they will understand it. And yeah, I get a little bit excited when I talk about it. But it's really what is a big force. It's driving me forward in some ways. And it's also what is interesting in the wine making process, which is really from us the day of harvest and then six, seven weeks, maybe a few months from there. And the rest of the year, we're just looking at the barrels tasting them. But we basically do nothing until bottling. But in this process, process of harvesting and making the wines is what is on my mind most of the time. This doubt, this inscuringness about how the wines end up. What are they presenting? What are the grapes trying to tell us? And how can we transform their language of words or whatever you like to call it? Their expression into something that people will understand. Because we're just a filter in somebody. From the grapes and the vineyards, it goes through us and they go into the bottles and out into the world. And it's a very important little, you know, I don't say, keyhole. Where we need to push everything in and let it pass through. And there's a lot of responsibility as well. And then there's this thing where wine getting put up on this pedestal. And as Am said, she likes to drink wine because it's a wine and it's nice. And it has to taste good and all these things, she said in the beginning, which is true. But wine also has this dark side of being a social, measuring stick. Well, I know better. I visited this wine maker you didn't. I tasted this wine that you don't know about all these things. And I can take the glass out, swallow it around, put my nose into the glass. Just by physical acts, I can communicate that I know a lot about wine. And it gives me a certain kind of position in a room of people eating and drinking wine, which I think is not so good. But it's very much part of wine and it's so dominant. And it's a little bit stereotype talk I do now, but it's a little bit the old school, old man, former what wine is. And when that's said, that is what is so beautiful and nice about the natural wines. It's that it's an open format. Young people in Paris, on Lyon, they buy a bottle, they open it, and they drink it on the side of the canal or the river, buy a plastic cup. Because they don't care. They don't care if it's gammae or it's pinonou hours from Alsace or Langadoc. They just want a red wine and they want to talk to each other and listen to some YouTube stuff and talk about a book they read a few days ago. It's not important. It's just a liquid. They drink as a beer. Natural wine has this quality of being for everybody. And I hope it will stay like that because it's also what natural wine is now turning into. Because it's getting more and more famous in a way, it also gets more and less more conserves that are searching to put it up on this wine maker is that good. make us a philosopher or poet or or whatever punk or whatever they can be. And by that way, you create these figures and egos and that way also the importers and the sumillies and the people drinking. They can put themselves up there as well. And it's not serving the wines very well, I think. Because it's made with another purpose in the beginning. Especially the wines that we make, I think also that Anne talked about before that has to be nice. Just nice, you know, nice white wine and the terrors in the sum. It can be, it can have all these complexities that I talk about that is really my ambitions for my own production and my own self in the wine. But the main part is really a slice of bread and a cheese and a glass of wine. It has this simplicity to it. And we should not forget that. Yeah. It's so funny when you say that because we, Sissel and I have one of your wines, the one called We Forgetting. And it was really a huge experience. And the two words that came to my mind were etch-y, but inviting, like, if it's a person at a party and the corner's been etch-y, but you first saw a woman inviting at the same time. That was the two words that, but do you, in terms of verification, do you already have plans now for what you want to do with the grapes, the seasonal? It arrived way further. It's difficult to say because we don't know how. It depends on how, if it's a heart somewhere, not a heart somewhere, if it's raining. It depends on the season, I think. But I also think, I know that we say we change every year and we also do that. But I think we have a way of working, which is the same way. And I think, during the years, we are more and more, like, we're getting better to choose the right way to go when we are making the decisions. And I think also, we are more and more aware of what we want to do. Yeah, and what is possible, what is working in our cell. But I don't know. The choices of what we want to make, I mean, indirectly, it's in the making because when we taste a glass of wine from somebody else, you get inspired. And then start to see it's a little thing in your head and you, I remember this, I remember that, when harvest comes. But as I said, with the season and also the flavors of the grapes, some things are possible, some things are not possible. And you only know the day of harvest. And then sometimes it's also a practical question. I mean, it's boring to say that, but that's also wine making. I mean, but I think it's also important to say that we can have all these high thoughts of what we want to do and where we're going to end. That's also a big part of it. But another big part of it is also, for example, we harvest with another wine maker. So because then we have the same harvest team. And then we can-- then they have to work every day because we don't have harvest at our place every day. And Nida has he. So we share it. And so sometimes it's also a practical-- OK, we can take the team that day. You take them those days. It's going to rain tomorrow. OK, then we have to wait three days. And so that's also the reality. And the press is not empty. They're not fermenting as fast as we like. OK, we don't have an empty cave. We don't have. So you-- and that's the situation. So-- Yeah, and you taste the grape. And you think it's possible to make this beautiful wine. And then, as I said, all these practical stuff occurs. And it pushes the harvest to three or four, five days later. And you taste the same grape, and it's not the same. And then you just-- everything that you've fixed on ideas and things you want to make, you have to change. And sometimes, like last year, where we had to make the-- what's it called? Not the Dicugas. Where we had to take the grapes out from the tank. And you realize when you're starting to do that, you don't have enough space in the-- In the press. To press it all. And then you're like, what do you do? Yes, a good example. Yeah, but because you have an open tank with wines and grape coming out, you have a press. You have two or three workers standing and pressing. And then you're like, fuck. Well, we got it. Yeah, but that's a good example. Close the tank. Think two minutes. But Anna has a good point, because that is a wine that, when we made it, it was a 2021 with mainly the grapes of our own vineyards. We de-stamped all the reds, big parts of the whites, and we let them macerate red and whites together in the juice of a white wine, of a white juice. And that was the main idea. And when we pressed, as Anne said, we took out the juice, took out the grapes. And when we had taken roughly half of the grapes, the press was full. So we had a cube at the tank, where the grapes were still inside. And when you asked before, did you already have an idea of what to do? That was already an idea of what to do. But there we were in the middle of a pressing of grape, a wine, and we couldn't finish what we were doing. So we had to come up with another thing. And actually, in that moment, it was really fast. We took decisions. So some years before, I had an idea of making another wine, where we, as you make tea, you make one brew, you make another brew, you make another brew. And every time it changed flavor-- But on the same-- --one on the same leaves of tea. And I've been thinking about this technique of tea making since we were in Japan together some years ago. And I wanted to try this in wine making, to do macerations several times on the same grapes. But we never had the chance to do it in other conditions of logistic things. We were not possible for years. And then by strike of luck or not luck, I don't know how to say it, the possibility was there. So I said to end, you remember I talked about this three years ago, and I wanted to do this. And we can do it like that. Now it's the time. We take out the grapes. We press. We take another juice. We fill up the tank again with the rest of the grapes. And a new juice. And we leave it to macerate another five or six days. Just to see what's happening. And then we go a week later, we emptied the tank and we pressed quietly. And it became nice. Now they two things are mixed. So they became one wine, after all. But that is really wine making. And in my opinion, there's no recipe. There's no recipe. There's no way to do it for us at least. It's true. There is no recipe. But you don't do it out of nowhere. You still have some background and your education telling you in what direction to go, I think. Sure, sure. I know you say it all the time, but I don't think you will be able to make good, simple quality wine if you don't know what you're doing. I think that goes hand in hand. Yeah, but it's true. So maybe you don't think you use it, but you use it all the time. So making a decision like that is also risky. If you don't know that it is possible, it could turn out to be very bad. But then you have a lot of wines you have to throw out. But-- Yeah, it's true. Intuition is always tied up to some kind of knowledge because otherwise you have-- it's just craziness. So I think we are working very much by intuition, especially in the wine making process. But it's true, as you say, and it's always tied up to some kind of either experience that we made ourselves on knowledge or experience. We have extracted from other-- by visiting other wine makers. I've never had a season where there was no major surprise. You wouldn't do it like that. No, not really. There's been smaller surprises every, I think. Yeah. Because you're getting used to it. Yeah, and good. But I think it's also-- It sounds dramatic when we talk about it, but it's also a nice way to work, I think. At least it gives me at least an energy, I think, for you as well, hand. But this-- I think it's also an exception of that there are-- I think sometimes the more you can try to control things, the harder it gets for you because it's impossible to control everything. So even though we want to most of the time. So I think sometimes of-- but I think for me, It's also easy for me to say because it's not my. education and sometimes it's been more easy for me to say okay that's I'm just gonna put it on him because he knows what he's doing but I maybe it would have been different but I think it's the same with nature and we talk about it often is I cannot it doesn't stress me if it's too hot or too cold or too much rain or because that's really something I cannot do anything about. I can do a lot of things to to improve the conditions of our work and vineyards and everything but that we don't have any. Yeah the weather we can't do anything but it's true doing habits you could be more I think mind-makers working if they know what they want to do with that grave and that grave and that great they organize their work after it I think but since we don't work like that we don't I think we're very organized it's not that but it's it doesn't stress us out if something is not going as planned sometimes it does but less I think but I think sometimes in the harvest you don't have the time to get stressed about or worried you just sometimes need to okay this is the decision we're gonna go for it and then we're just gonna hope and sometimes we have points that are not ready to be. Yeah but so the wine you just talked about you had in Paris I imagine yeah it was supposed to be a white wine originally and the white wine it's a 19 wine that is 19 is one of the warmest vintage in France in many years this year 22 it's warm 19 17 a little bit 15 a little bit and 2003 very very warm and then before that was a few as well but 19 was one of the first very very warm years in recent wine making history in France and I was fixed on the idea of making white wine but the white juice was not in balance there was no freshness there was no I mean the bitterness and the richness of the wine was too strong and the finesse of elegance was was not in place so we decided to add other grapes and finally also red grapes so the the white wine that we want to make became a became a red wine so it's and that I think it's would stress many people because if you have your cuve of this grape white yeah but it has to be white and it has to be this grape and in our in our way of letting the wines become wine we just it doesn't matter we can just add something else and it becomes another wine completely new wine we never seen before but it it makes the wine more interesting or better or performing better or going in the direction that is more interesting so it's yeah it's a constant flexibility in some way (gentle music) (gentle music) (gentle music) (gentle music) (gentle music) So I think you've already mentioned so many interesting aspects on the title of this series, but it's a natural wine, ala agriculture. So I just wondered if we could tie some of the stuff together that you've been mentioning. So, I said, I wanna jump right into it. Do you view natural wine as an art form? I think it's just art. Because we discussed that a lot. Maybe it's an art form, but it's not something I pay attention to. I don't say we make art. I see it more as a craft man ship, than more than art, I think. I understand why people consider it as art, but sometimes I'm always, the number was like, "Oh, it's a glass of wine, what can I say?" (laughing) And, but it depends on how you talk about art and how, and so I know you see it completely different than I do, but I think, I don't know, maybe it is, and maybe it's not, but I don't know if it makes a difference. So that's why I'm not, it's not something that I have reflected a lot of about. And maybe it's just something inside me, but sometimes when people start to talk about it, I get like, but. (laughing) - Bag of trillions. - No, not that, no, but not, I don't know, I don't, I, it, it, and then sometimes I think, okay, but what would happen to you if you start to think about it, as art, but I don't know, there is something inside me that's like, "Oh!" And I, without explaining it, but, but. But also if you see wine as art, you also see, you need to see the wine maker as an artist. And I think that's the real clash, because. Some wine makers surely they see themselves as artists, but most of them, 99% of them don't. And they see themselves as wine growers or farmers or whatever they can be, but not artists. But, and that's the part of what I'm said that I agree with, is that it is just wine, it is just a product of the earth and hand, craftsmanship and these things. - And the way of living, I think. - Yeah, but that's all these aspects, but, but if you need to talk about wine as being art, which I think you can argue, it is, it's because art is not about an expression, it's about an impression. Art becomes art when it moves people. I can make it drawing and nobody would pay attention, meaning it's not art. You could make it painting. Everybody would love it, start to cry, laugh, fall in love with it, because it's art, because you manage to communicate something that moves people. So, some bottlub bottles of wine are art, because they have this capacity or ability to move people in certain directions or move them emotionally. I have it myself, I drink wines from other wine makers and I get emotionally moved by them. As I do with our own wines in some way, and I know, we are, I mean, through social media, we get messages from people, we go to tasting around France and in the world and people contact us and they are, we feel them emotionally, they're very engaged in what we do. And for me, That proves that what we do is an art form because people are getting moved. But do I seem a self as an artist, do I see an artist? Not at all. Not even close. Because for me an artist is something else. Is somebody with an artistic vision or an artistic touch of something. And what we do is. Yeah, it's like a very good musician. He's a craftsman, like a very good architect. He's somebody that is able to build a house. You need to know something to do that. It doesn't make an artist. It makes you. Somebody that has this ability to do this, to do artistic stuff where you do. provoke people or communicate stuff. It's a more volatile way of doing that. And that is for me the more artistic thing, where it's more flu and less craftsmanship and more emotions. Wine is not that. Wine becomes that when it touches people, but at the origin of wine making, it's not that. It's just like a house, it's a stone. Put on another stone, put on another stone, put it on another stone, until it makes a house. Wine is the same, it's great, great, great, until it makes a wine. As music is. work composed music, is notes and instruments put together in a right way. And it's not an artist making that. It's a very, very high-skilled musician. And that is a craft. So I say something and I say another thing. Yeah, but I think it's. That's why it's difficult to say, you said it or you said not. I think if a wine maker thinks that it's art, then let it be. I don't have any problems with it, because. But I agree with you, maybe it's because I don't see myself as an identity of an artist. So that's also why it's difficult for me to define what we do as art, probably. Or maybe it's my own need to. Stay in the ground. Yeah, I don't know if it's that. I don't know. Because we talk about it a lot, because it is something that is being discussed. And I think also. Yeah, I think a lot of natural wine makers also just want to be. My makers. And I remember one time we overheard, there was a journalist also asking, "How does it feel to make this, and this, and make people be moved?" And he was like, "I don't know. I choose this job because I like to work outside and I like to make sure that I can feed my family and we can go on vacation." So it was not deeper than that. But I think it was so nice, because it was. But it was just so honest. And yeah, that's also one of. Of course we like to do what we do, but we also wanted a job where we could have another family life. And we want to make sure that our children has clothes and food and we can go on vacation. And this is the way we choose to do it. So. Yeah, and people. Yeah, you have a good point. When we talk about the production as well, it's also why we stay in the volume that we stay. We want to work. Reason amount of hours, so we can be here when they can sleep for school. We are here when they come back, like we are in France, so they come very late, so we can work a lot. No, I'm joking. No, but it's also. You can always make a success. You can also make more and be better, but it demands other things. We decide to stay in a physical format of amount of bottles, amount of vineyards, and so on, that allows us to make what we do, not more. If we have to do more, we have to employ people, or we have to wait a lot more. And it will take the time for other things. I will actually stop reading the newspapers, don't have time to read a book, don't go to the football match on the Saturdays, and so on, so on. And that is not the life we want to live. But I think it's. We were recently, before we bought this idea to buy the house to make a new cellar. It was. We were looking at buying maybe a piece of land, buying an old farm and everything. And when we started to look at that, then you will. You start automatically thinking, "Okay, then we could have like. Big cellar, if we have like a. We could have animals, we could do, we could have a big house, we could have thousand of things that we don't have now, and then you can have to lend a lot of money and the bank to. And suddenly, and very fast, it became like a very big project, and that also could be very interesting. But at the same time, we were like, why did we move? What was the point of moving here? And then we suddenly realized it was not to have a big, big production, it was not to have work every day, it was with another purpose. And I think that going back to that idea and then saying, "Okay, then we buy that house and then we see what can it bring." And then we just had to adapt again to that situation. And. Yeah. But it also pulls back to the core of what we both find interesting in our business and in our way of living. So it can be, as I talked about before, the constant search of pushing the wine to the edge or letting the wines communicate poetically, artistically, politically or whatever, or living a quiet life. And all these things combined, you can only do that in a certain format. But I sometimes also think that the success of what you can call it of the wines we make is also because it's very present. So because it's small. As you said, we do everything by hand. And when you grow, you have to work in another way, then there's more machines or I don't know. But let us make it. Let us, I think it's been important for us to hold on to that part. Would you be happier with viewing yourself as curators of nature? It's a good point. I often think about that as a curator. I think it's a nicer term than an artist. I think it's more correct. It's more. Yeah. Or a fairly, fairly. Yeah, I think it's more. Yeah, it feels more comfortable. Yeah. Actually, to. Yeah. But many curators they've seen themselves as artists. Or at least they dress like them. Now, but also what I think maybe if I should see myself as something that is not an artist or something like that is to see myself or an as a politician. That is something that I feel more for than being an artist. Words are important to us and the way we write on our labels is important because we. Also, the statement, the way you work is also a statement of saying this is. Of course, we work like this because we think it's the best way of working and we also think it's the best way of working for the earth and the environment. And we really hope that it will inspire other people to work the same way or to maybe see it is possible even though you have four head tasks and you only two persons or. Yeah, and you put things into a bottle that people buy with money that eventually becomes a political choice. And so instead of voting every four, five years for presidents. I think the consumer has a lot of power in that way. That's it. Yeah. And organic things and binary things and natural wine and so on and so on and so on. All of it is a political choice because you decide to buy something that is not only better for yourself but also better for the environment and the nature and the white room. So the people is not to be angry with the people that buy conventional stuff or. Yes, a little bit actually because there is egos. They want cheap stuff and they don't give a shit about how to grow. So they spend their money destroying nature where things are grown. You know, you can buy, we often talk about the dark hits. Nutella is a very famous product in France, every kid in France they eat it at morning and when they come back from school they get a tartina of Nutella. And white grown is pantry oil. Where these Apes, monkeys, monkeys, or monkeys? They're dying, you know. And I mean, how can you allow yourself to buy a product that is taking down the rate for us? It's completely crazy. And by buying a natural wine, by buying organic, you take your political vote and you use it every day. In the supermarket or wherever you use your money, you take things from this shelf and you put your political opinion down into your basket. And that is something that I think is really important. And our wines are very much made in that spirit as well. Grown in a way, produced in a way, with people, paid in a way, feeding in a way, all these things goes together and it is in the bottle. And it's written on the label. We are very conscious about what we write on the names of the kubis. It can be often misunderstood as something poetic, artistic, beautiful, small sentences. And it is sometimes. But it's also sometimes, as you said, we forget too easily. For me, it's a very, very, the name of the kubi you had in Paris. For me, it's a very political thing because we, for Anne and I, it was Black Lives Matter, six of January, Trump election, fraud, Indian women in the US being killed, and he'd been in Europe, war and your cream. Constantly there's stuff. And two, three months after, it's forgotten. We do national collective things where we collect money and close for people in war. And it's all good. But then two months later, a new event occurs. And we forget about it. And then it's all about that. And you post pictures and social media and newspaper only write about this. And then we do a lot of things if you're not engaged in this, it's because you don't have any feelings for the world. And then two months later, it's a new thing. So we tend to forget all the time what is, and I think it's a little bit sad. I think we should, it's hard to say a break and focus on just one thing because they are constantly new things and new problems. But we, it's not that I want people to not engage in new ones, just wish that they would stay a little bit longer in all of them. And that's what this label is about. It's a very indirect way to say to people, take responsibility, not only one posted Instagram, but a half year or do something more important than just very fast instant talk. Because it's too easy. And yeah, many of our labels is about that. Yeah, I've had any strong reactions from people on your labels, or like both in like very, when they're very inspired, but at all, because you're working with friends and talking about traditionally and so on. I think I don't think we really had any bad reactions or, I think, no, I don't, I think maybe more positive things like people relating to, to labels, but I also feel when we speak to different kind of people that the labels represent different things for them. It's not necessary. The same thing. I think, the tasting. And the one, it's the first year of the events. We made a petnette. It's called, it was the first day of the big summer holiday. I was 16. And everyone was like, yeah, it's like, remember that day. And then there was one saying, but isn't it a little bit sexual, intimidating? I was like, what? And apparently this person was thinking about his first time. But I was like, well, I don't get it. I was like, what? And he was like, don't you get it? No, I don't get it because it's not, it was not intentional. But that's the interesting fact. But afterwards, it's exactly that I was like, thinking, that's so interesting that you read it like that because it never occurred to me that it could have been being put fine. Yeah, but that's interesting. But with our labels, because we, we quite early in the, in the wine making project, we discovered that the way we communicate on the labels means that the bottle is put on a table, people read it or drink the bottle. And they start to have discussions about it. They have to, they start to have interaction with the label. And then by that with us. And at that way, we could communicate stuff to people that we will never meet in some way, not physically at least. And, and the way they understood differently is also, I think, the beautiful part of it because all the wines for us, all the labels and all the names has a very specific some less. Most of them, a very direct relation to the wines and to ourselves, but they understood very differently. And if we go back to now, we move a little bit away from the political part, if it's the more poetic labels, but that is what could argue for the art part of the wine making is that now we are starting to have people having, I mean, that is not our expression, our way of communicating, this their way of understanding. And that is what may, can argue that it's artistic in some way because it's is understood in a way that that is understood by the person watching on the piece, drinking the wine, reading the label. And it becomes bigger than us, bigger than the wine, bigger than everything else, because it is something that happens where the wine is, it's been drunk. And it's interesting, I think, because it's moving away from us out into the, in a new space, you know, in a new world where we don't, where we are not necessarily agree. And yeah, labels has this function and it's, and the wine, the quality of the wine and the wine itself communicate these things and it's very proud in some way, but it's also very flatter by the wine's ability to do that. Yeah, definitely. And last question on, on where, where do you see the future of natural wine making that you know, obviously, know a lot of people who make natural wine also. Do you have a sense that people have similar to you have this like political dimension or artistic dimension to the wine and that will become more common, less bound by traditional. Do you see the future as mixed as always, like there's only different people, like a trend or a broader. I, I wouldn't use to start it, but I had a feeling that natural wine is moving in, is in a crossway in some way, because it's a movement or a category of wine that is. So much now and there's so many grows, so many makers of wine in that category that naturally it will split up as I would say more conventional made wine are the high end labels of wood, shadow and burgundy and Bordeaux and inexpensive wines and back in box from Languedoc. It's the same category of wine, but it's very different natural wine has since 15, 20 years been a very small group of people making them serving them and drinking. And the totality of this group is expanding, it's growing in numbers, so I think naturally now we will have one movement, that one, I mean branch that is focusing on being organic and making wines with a little bit of sulfur and a little bit of filtration and some mechanical works, some will not accept that at all. Some people will go in a more artistic experimental way and some will maybe go in a more classical way where they say, okay, we want to make wines that is just as good as the great wine of Chef Rachampata and the great conclusion of burgundy and champagne and Alessas and all these things. Why not? Because it's possible and I think that will be the next chapter of natural wine is that we will see the concept being three, four, five different concepts of wine because it's now growing out of its own success in some way. And I think that is a great thing and when you grow out of your own success you need to cut. of the roots a little bit and then move from there and I think that is what will happen I hope in some way because it will also be nice to follow and see I'm curious to see how it will yeah how it will go don't you think? yeah for me I think the most important is that the wine growers and also the consumers are responsible and I think this is a way of then it can I hope it will grow and and yeah leaves the things to think differently and the way we we do for me in general yeah yeah that will be great yeah and I know that's not so much, you guys are being thinking yeah