Speaker 1propel fitness water with gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins. propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? propel with gatorade electrolytes. The next category,
Speaker 2Tim, and this is another category which could easily have been blurred together with the art pop and the post punk fallout category, gothic architect. Now, I know for a fact that Brendan Perry of dead condense will probably hate the idea that he's goth, but lots of people think dead condense are the epitome of goth. Why would they be goth?
Speaker 3I think partly they want 4AD, partly it was the image that they had, and partly because of course there is a kind of gloomy ghostly quality to their music. Well, it fits in with a gothic sensibility, and I suppose it's a bit like psychedelic, but you can describe certain things that define some goth cliched bands. But actually a lot of the goth bands are very different from one another, as in all genres. A lot of prop bands are different from one another. A lot of psychedelic bands are different from one another, use different processes. Too fair, they started off in a more obvious joy division influence territory, so I guess they partly come from that. There's also a tribal element to the drums as well that fitted in with some of the post punk sensibility. I was going to say non so goth as I remember once going to, I think it's possibly in Belafel in Germany, going to a dark wave goth club around Christmas, and there was a Santa Claus with a black Santa Claus outfit dancing to DAF or something like that. But that's very rude to the way. But that's second
Speaker 2generation goth isn't it? That's when goth has become, it's become a me, it's meme the right word, it's become a thing, and there are things, but all of stylistic tropes,
Speaker 3stylistic tropes, you know neo-prog has the stylistic tropes of the progressive underground bands, that actually very few of them had.
Speaker 2Yes, or if they did have them, it was almost they stumbled on them by accidents. And left it for one album. Yes. So I think we can safely say the same is true probably of the first generation of what we now think of as goth, I mean I got got goth to it. What the house fit into it? Joy division. Sisters of mercy. It's probably the band I think most yeah most accurately reflect what we think of as
Speaker 3the goth tropes. Even they had a sense of excess and humor. Yeah, that was not. Yes. What you'd say is definitive goth. But I love, I mean spleen an ideal is it? What's an album? Yeah, what an album. I love it. Second album. This is the album where they really become dead condoms. Yeah. Well it might be my favourite of those because it's where everything's quite tentative. It comes out just after this mortal coil album which I loved, you know, the first this mortal coil album, it lends in tears. And Lisa Gerard, I guess gained some prominence through being on that. So I bought this, you know, in eager anticipation from my our price in Warrington, absolutely adorter. And I think there's a kind of with this, there's still a connection between the band they were which is that band coming out of Joy division and trouble. Yes. I think by the next within the realm of dying sun, they've become something altogether. Yes. But by this you can just about see them coming out of a post punk sensibility. It's got a rawness of roughness guitars and certainly Brendan's crew isn't as defined as it's going to be.
Speaker 2But it starts, you know, it starts with these two instrumental pieces that sound like colossal pieces of music of worship almost. It's got that so over the top and portentious and pretentious in all the best possible senses of the word. Which must have been quite shocking for people that had been buying Bauhaus records. And this is a mercy record, you know, in thinking that this is going to be the next definitive piece of goth music they get on the turntable.
Speaker 3But it went down well and they did have quite a global audience. I think because, you know, there was a lot of instrumental music and you know, Lisa Gerard would sing wordlessly out of the cocktail twins in some ways. They had a sort of enormous following in America, Canada. I was always really surprised that you talked people, we got hard dead condensed, magnificent. So I think they also kind of got in with the nascent world music and maybe even the new age that was kind of dominating culturally they got in some way. And I think the classical music as well.
Speaker 2This is much of a pit about this record as there is joy division. I think of it as a good composer. Yeah. And it's ludicrous isn't it? And we love ludicrous music. It's so unapologetically what it is. It's reaching for the, I mean, you know, there's a picture of actually someone, it's a great cover as well, isn't it? Picture what looks like somebody out of focus holding up a stop. There is a sense of it reaching for something so high and risking everything and looking ridiculous.
Speaker 3Well, talking to gothic it reminds me, have you ever been to Cologne Cathedral? Yes. It's enormous Cathedral. Yes. That's where this music feels. Yes, Niko to a certain extent. If Niko is in the basement of the cathedral. Yes. They're actually screaming at us from the top. Niko is buried in a coffin in the crypt.
Speaker 2Yeah. There is a sense of reverential religiosity to the music. I don't think they are religious, but it's got that kind of passion that religious people have about their music. It's pretty humorous, isn't it? Well, you can't imagine that they will watch and
Speaker 3carry on cabbie while making this album.
Speaker 2No, but I love that about it. And then their label makes cocktail twins who didn't make an album this year, but cocktail twins are developed this tradition of releasing at least two, sometimes three, four track EPs every year. And I think for me, their best work sometimes would be on their EPs. And they released three this year, eight, the achigin EPs, four tracks. And then a pair of companion releases that came out the same day, essentially an album's worth of material that was split over two matching four track EPs, tiny dynamite and echoes in a shallow way. And again, you wonder, "Goth." I mean, okay, they're a bit humorous. They almost had an anti-image in that respect, didn't they? Liz Fraser always looked embarrassed to be performing. And it was part of their charm, you know? And the use of reverb and echo and death and ambience,
Speaker 3you know? I think death can dance a much darker than cocktail twins, but what they both possess is an ethereal, spiritual form of space.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah. Sisters of Mercy we mentioned, their debut I'm first and last and always came out this year. I mean, this in many ways, this is the definitive "Goth" album. I think partly because his voice, he's got that baritone voice. And the titles are ridiculous.
Speaker 3It's like "Bowee meets Bella Legosi," isn't it? It's something there. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I agree, it's a definitive "Goth" statement. I probably prefer "Floodland." I really like this. Strangely, it's one of those albums, a bit like you too, where you know you hear, and I said, obviously, "Frozen Moment" by Roy Harper, where suddenly I think, "Geez, that's a key influence on me without me ever realizing." When I was listening to this album, because I was aware of it at the time, and it wouldn't have been my favourite album of '85, I'd have really liked it, and I'd have played it, and I was listening to tracks like "Walk away" and thought, "Good God, there are elements of that in swagger by no man." That, you know, I'd clearly absorbed it, and I do remember, you know, it's my dad, very supportive, when he was watching "Top of the Pops" and bands like "The Mission" and "The Sisters of Mercy" would come on, he'd say, "You bloody sound like that, bloody awful!" Really? That was. Yeah, and he'd heard something in "The Mission" and "Sisters of Mercy" and then you sound like that bloody. You sound like that. And then we'll be quaking with the rage. I thought, "Well, that's very supportive, thank you very much." Okay, there's a Roger Moore retort, obviously.
Speaker 2Now, continuing on this theme of "What is really goth?" Okay, "Killing Joke" and "The Cult" both made records this year, and interesting both records, which were their stab at moving further into a major. I love "Killing Joke", you know, there's a rage, isn't there always in Joke? Yes, common. And not only in his voice, but also in the rhythm section and in "Geordie's Guitar", "Geordie" recently passed away sadly, that sound colossal, sound. I think we've talked about "Killing Joke" on the show before. I think this is my favourite "Killing Joke" record because it's the one where, again, we've talked about this so many times on the show where they're actually going for a slightly more accessible sound, but they're not losing any of what makes them special.
Speaker 3I mean, "Love Like Blood" was every time, and it is a great single. And again, it's one of those singles that has got so much economy because it's just a little hook on the guitar that grabs you in the same way that something has shown you crazy dime and does. It's that memorable, that simple, and it was everywhere in the clubs at the time because, again, it has that almost running up that heel-pummeling, galloping rhythm. Yeah, it's a great rhythm.
Speaker 2And also '80s, of course, famously, they sued Nirvana for plagiarising '80s on how much you are.
Speaker 3Yeah, I'm with you. I really like it because, basically, they've managed to soften what they do, make it radio-palatable, audience-friendly. Pull out the hooks, yeah, without losing what I odore of their madness. I quite like outside the gate, the one that came three years after this, but that's really insane and bloated. And I love the fact that they didn't, because this again, what they could have done after "Love Like Blood" is just make "Love Like Blood" for the rest of their careers. And they didn't, they continued to morph, you know?
Speaker 2Yeah. I mean, in a sense, night time is, it's the fifth album I think I'm right saying, it's almost like it's the logical next step from everything that came before because it is at the end of the day if you analyze the DNA of the record. It's the same as the first few records, but it's just got a slightly more polished production. It's got a little bit more emphasis on the bringing out the hooks, bringing out the melodic, which was always there, but as you say, the quirks and the madness is still there too. And I think you could say the same with the cult love. I mean, the big single on this record she saw sanctuary, the cult would eventually end up morphing essentially into ACDC. And there's a sense that I think that's what they always wanted to be. I think Ian asked me the thing I always wanted to be Jim Morrison and a big sort of rock, lethario. But they came, you know, the cult started out Southern death cult, then became death cult, then became the cult. This was their second record. I think she saw sanctuary as a brilliant single, then about you.
Speaker 3Yeah, and I quite liked it. I wasn't as much of a fan. I really liked this as mercy. Cult were not quite up there for me, but yeah, I liked it. But what's interesting, what you're saying there is that I think with cis as mercy, the mission, the cult to an extent, there was almost a reinvention of the hard rock template as much as being definitive goth bands. Rock fans really like those bands as well.
Speaker 2Is there a sense that Jim Morrison is very much a role model for the goth, you know, the sort of goth look, the goth feeling, the goth image, isn't it? The leather, the black leather trousers, the the eyeballs, you know, the looking into the empty eyeballs that deep stare, the nihilistic lyrics. It's all there, isn't it, really, in the in the door's template? And he asked me, of course, famously ended up joining the doors as a replacement for a replacement. Or Jim Morrison. He replaced him. But apparently he made quite a credible go of it, you know, a thankless task. But anyway, now Nick Cave, Tim, Nick Cave, is he goth? I don't know, but I tell you this, I know Nick Cave, I can't remember if we've talked about Nick Cave before on the show. I know Nick Cave is brilliant. I know he is a genius. I know he's one of the greatest artists of the last 50 years. Never liked him.
Speaker 3So he's a bit of a PJ Harvey for you.
Speaker 2He's a bit on the PJ Harvey side, the Bob Dylan, the Leonard Cohen, Peter, the Johnny Cash. And actually, interesting, I think there's a lot in common. He has a lot in common with those artists. I think he's a big Johnny Cash. I can see that he's very impressed by Johnny Cash, isn't he? Yeah. Maybe something about the voice, the mannerisms, that deep kind of barrier to him was, I've tried with Nick Cave. I think he's amazing. I've just never really, he's a blank spot for me. And I think, and I, and it's my bad completely. Anyway, his second album, first born,
Speaker 3is that I've got a lot more time for him. And I think you have, yeah, an amazing band, very flexible. And what I love about Cave is that, you know, not only has he made this kind of proto-goth with the birthday party, you know, absolute slab of atonal noise. He can also, he can also pull off their beautiful ballads, you know, there's quite a number of albums, which are quite stately. And of late, he's even, you know, experimented with a lot of electronics and does it very, very well. You know, his sound never sits still. I've, I mean, I bought Skeleton Tree.
Speaker 2Was it recently? And I thought, that's really good. And then I realised, I wasn't going to listen to it again. And again, it's my bad. It's absolutely my bad. Because I think he's incredible. I was just a great writer. He's a very, very smart guy too. It just for me, personally, never really. Well, he never, I think what I like about him is he never phones it in. He never phones it in. And he never stands still, either, from what I can tell. He's always curious, and he's always moving forward. So the second record, first born, is dead came out and Nick Cave in the bad seed. This album we do have to talk about Tim. And I think this is now that you hate gone. But I think it's a very important record. And at the time, you will remember this. This was a lot of the hipster presses album of the year. I'm going to hate it for sure. You're going to hate it. You know what it is, don't you? The Jesus and Marychains psycho candy. Now, I remember when this came out. And I have to say, I was pretty blown away with never understand particular. Yeah. I don't think the band have really ever transcended their status as indie darlings. They've never done what some of these other bands we've talked about. They've never really crossed over and made a great sort of crossover record. They've kind of carved out their own little niche. But in a sense, I think they do suffer from Citizen Kane syndrome is that everything that people love them for was defined on this first record. In fact, everything people love them for was kind of defined on the first couple of singles.
Speaker 3You see, I'm thinking that the first singles were slightly more interesting than the album as a whole. Yeah. This is my dear. I think so too. And funny enough, I remember, I don't know if it was on the tube or something, Pete's hands-on with being interviewed. And the thing is you listen to Pete's music. And while you can hear that he's got the "the" certainly in his vision, he was saying, "Jesus and Marychains, absolutely phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal." So he was talking about them time. You know, they kind of transcended culture and even elder statesmen were talking about them. But yeah, they're one of those bands, a bit like teenage fan club, that you know, Nick Kavis for you. Nick Kavis is a blank spot for you. They're a blank spot for me. It just kind of cordially sounds quite dull. I love the idea of it. You know, I love this idea of sweet beach boys melodies being swamped by my bloody valentine or crimson-esque noise. Well, it was beyond that. It was you a feedback.
Speaker 2And I think that was that was what blew my mind, with that single, never understand. Is there was this beautiful melodic singing going on over this sort of like, "motonic, very velvet undergroundy beat" with this full-spectre production? I mean, big reverb. And then this ear splitting, ugly feedback over the top. I just thought that was so interesting. In principle, I love it. There's an approach to this thing. But it's a flash bulb moment. It's a flash bulb moment. It's like, that's your flash bulb moment. Now what are you going to do? Right. And they never really did anything else that made me sit up that way again. Because in a sense, they're gag. They told their gag. You know, to use the analogy of a comedian, they told their one joke. That was it. Let's take a complete diversion into somewhere completely different now. Now, I've called this category "old souls". And what I mean by that is that this is the sound of pop music that sounds like it's longing for another era. Sting's first solo album falls into this category for me. Now we talked about Sting twice already, because he's on the Miles album and he's on the "Dustrates album". But he released his first solo album this year, "The Dream of the Blue Titles", which I think is a great, really, really fantastic solo record. But there's something about it that you always knew that Sting was close to Phil Collins than he was to Johnny Rotten. Yeah. And here is the proof on his first solo album. That's a very unfair. But do you know what I mean by that? There's something about it. Something about him that was close to wanting to be a classic.
Speaker 3I do. And having heard his early demos, I don't know, you ever heard his, you know, the band, he was in the jazz rock band, he was in before we joined the police. No, I haven't heard them. And they were really interesting. But what's even more interesting is one, he's got his voice. In 1975, he is Sting. Right. Number two, in 1975, he's writing the melodies for things that are going to be hits for the police and Sting as a solo artist. Right. Some of the things like children's crusade, I think. Oh yeah, which is on the record. And we work the black scene. I think essentially the melodies come from this period. So he was writing this stuff in the mid 70s. And he was, you know, I remember obsessed with the likes of Jack Bruce and so on, which again puts him as a kind of, as you say, the old soul. I think his heroes growing up were Hendrix, Cream, and so on. And there was always a musicality about the police. And there's an even greater musicality about the Sting albums. And I agree with you. I think a bit like Phil Collins' face value. And at the time, before it became the mega star Sting, he was getting front page of the music papers and actually it got pretty good reviews when it came out.
Speaker 2Well, the police were seen as a post-pong group, weren't they? You know, coming out of the sort of, some people didn't quite trust them.
Speaker 3Well, I cannot understand why.
Speaker 2I mean, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Those police records are so good. It doesn't matter what you think. But what's interesting is that this is even a big transition from say Sting. Very much. Well, I was
Speaker 3saying face value because a bit like face value. It's almost like Collins advertising all aspects of his ability, you know, from soul artists to, you know, R&B, Pumper to experimental sound designer. There's everything in that album. It's almost like this is what I can do. 11 songs to 11 different directions. This is sort of similar where you've got him as the jazz crooner, him as the art rocker, him as the pure pop composer. There's a lot of really interesting stuff in it. And obviously in overriding jazz. I was going to say you mentioned jazz.
Speaker 2And I think that's the big difference. That you don't hear jazz and synchronicity, the previous police album. But suddenly Sting's on his own and that jazz sensibility is coming right through. I mean, I think the record he made after this bring on the night. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, which is really good. And it's, and I think the band he puts together is a bunch of jazzers, isn't it? Isn't it? Isn't Winton Marcellus in that band? It's no it's Branford. Branford Marcellus. Winton Marcellus is the big brother. It's Branford Marcellus. And it's essentially a jazz combo. And they're doing like jazzed up versions of a lot of the police songs. And so you like bring on the night itself. Bring on the night. So I think, so here the dream of the blue turtles, you're here the beginning of that. In fact, the title track is basically a jazz instrumental, if I'm not wrong. But some great songs on this record. You mentioned some of them, you know, some of some of his classic, you know, melodic pop singles are on this on this first album. If
Speaker 3you love somebody, if
Speaker 2you love somebody, fortress around my heart. Dex is midnight runners Tim. Now I've got a hunch, you're going to be very defensive of this record. It's a massive folly. It was slaughtered on release, but it has a real cult following to the point that it's been reissued in the directors' cuts, and the kind of run has gone back and re-mixed it and re-sequenced it. I've tried to like it over the years, but I bought it at least twice. I can't find my way into it. I thought maybe you were going to be one of those people who would evangelise
Speaker 3about it. I've got a couple of friends who absolutely need to get one of those people on, and I do think it's interesting. It's interesting. It is certainly the definition of wayward. You had to follow on the two Rayay, come on Arlene, era defining hits, Jackie Wilson said, which I was like, you know, the top of the pop. And I don't know whether it was the top of the pop's editors or, you know, I think he always said it was them. At the back of Jackie Wilson said, you had Jackie Wilson.
Speaker 2So those people who don't know that are not British, Jackie Wilson was a famous British dance player. And erroneously top of the pop's projected an image of Jackie Wilson. While Dexter Smith and I were performing their cover of Jacky Wilson said, I always like to think that someone had got upset. Kevin Rowland had upset one of the production team at top of the pop. So they did it deliberately. Yeah. Just piss him off.
Speaker 3He just sounded like he could do that. I think he could upset a few people. So yeah, this album you're talking about 85. It was one of those extraordinary albums that bore little relationship to what they've done. I mean, there's maybe a little bit of the R&B. I think isn't Vincent Crane from Atomic Rooster on organ on this album?
Speaker 2Possibly. But I mean, the bits I listened to sounded like he was harking back to, you know, almost a 40s, 50s again, you know, a bit like with The Sting, there's a strong connection back to jazz. But more old-fashioned, like, this one's
Speaker 3got a lot of talking on it as well.
Speaker 2It's got a lot of talking and almost like a musical. Yeah. What she liked, the 12 minute sense of pace, that is bizarre. Really odd. What, you know, this got one of the other guys in the band is asking, Kevin, what she liked, this new girl of yours. And then it's a very sort of like, you know, Rodgers and Hammerstein, you know, sort of music. Is that the guys that did the musicals? They did. Yeah, yeah. It's that reminding me of that kind of thing, which I'm sure at the time must have seemed like a really bold, mad thing to do. Does it make it any good? I don't know. I'm not sure.
Speaker 3I think it's one of the, you know, we were talking, I think in '68, you'd ask me about the jazz, jazz, and frip album. And I said, you know, does that come in that academy of underrated for me where if they'd have ended on that, would we still be talking about it? I wasn't sure. Yeah. And I think with this album, it was made because it was coming off the back of enormous success with such a disaster. That's the talking point.
Speaker 2It was seen as admirable. Yeah. Or introspectively, it was seen as admirable that they did, they committed this career folly.
Speaker 3It's the heavens gate of albums in a way. And I'm not sure if it had been their only album and been released in isolation. Whether or anyone will be talking about it, other than, it's very odd.
Speaker 2Possibly not. Yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah. But like you, it's never, you know, I'm really glad it's out there. And I think that Rowland, you know, he's quite a fascinating artist. And he's got such a distinctive voice as well.
Speaker 2And we know that there are people out there that do love this record and will evangelise about it. So I was hoping you would be one of those people. So you could balance things out, but you're not. I'm not. So we need to get someone out like you have thought it a few times. Again, this is going to be my favourite album all time. Now's the time. Now. And then. Oh, yeah. So I'm sure that what she like, I might giggle at that. I'm sure there will be people on social media that will respond that we're missing everything about this record in the past. And we should get this is why we should have the 15 second readers review. We should have the readers reviews. We should indeed. Listeners wives. Yeah. Suzan Vega, another old soul. Yeah. This very young singer songwriter, I think about 20 years old when she made her first album. Oh, okay. And again, she's kind of an anachronism at this time, isn't she? She's harking back to the era of your journeys, your classic Joni Mitchell's, a young lady with an acoustic guitar and a very earnest, lyrical, you know, sort of approach. And this was a big hit, this record. And there was obviously an appetite for this kind of record at this time. We have it. The girl, how are young, don't I mean. Yeah, yeah, really she loves Suzan Vega. I mean, I love it.
Speaker 3I loved it. I bought this album at the time. Loved it then. Love it now. I think there is something 80s about it. I mean, it was produced, I think by Lenny Kay, wasn't it from the Paddy Smith. You might be right. And I think a bit like the Roy Harper problem, because that Roy Harper album is classic Harper, but as you've said, it's got this glassy 80s production on the acoustic guitar. Do you think there's an ovation guitar or something? This album, there's a sense of space and the guitar sound that's very mid 80s. So while it's not cluttered with horribly dated drum sounds or obvious 80s touches, there's something in the space of the music, the sound of the guitar that again to use, I think it reminds me a bit of like Michael Hedges or Ralph Towner or ECM or Wyndham Hill of that kind of era. There's a sense of space in the music. Once more, she's got a very sensitive subtle band behind her on occasion. Right. And sometimes a bit like with Frozen Moment on the Roy Harper album, there are pieces that have got very few chords, but they're beautifully articulated. And it allows her kind of, I don't know how you describe that voice again. It's kind of quite warm, quite breathy. Quite a sense of space and the way in which she sings every melody, you know, if you're thinking of my lane on the wall in a way was the outlier in that it had the hook and I guess dragged people into the album.
Speaker 2But she's, she is out of time, isn't she? Because she's doing that, Joe, anything. She's telling the story. She's got the acoustic guitar, she's storytelling. And you think in 1985 that would have been not what people wanted to hear. And yet this album did kind of resonate and did hear it and actually started a trend for.
Speaker 3I think you're right. I think this was beginning of a trend. You know, I think people like to need to ticker them, try to chat, learn, try to chat, definitely. And I think this is still one of the most special albums that, you know, if you think of small blue thing, you know, it could only be Suzanne Vega. You know, there's only one kind, I don't even think it's a misstep, but there's one track, Neighborhood Girls, where I think she's trying on that kind of luried street observations. And it doesn't kind of suit her voice as much as the more poetic and elliptical work in the rest of the album. And Marlaid on the wall kind of suits her and suits your old soul's description in the sense that, you know, this seemed like somebody with an acoustic guitar watching black and white film noir or comedy films from the 30s. There's something about her that seemed quite knowing, I think. Now talking of old
Speaker 2souls too. Yeah. We need to talk about this record. Meet his murder, the Smiths. We love the Smiths, don't we?
Speaker 3And this is a good one. We love them. Well, they never made a bad one, did they? I think the first album, which is great, is as close as The Camp. It's not as bad. No, that's not great. It's not bad.
Speaker 2It's great. But I agree with you. It's my least favourite, but this is definitely a step up from that, isn't it? More or see, they're talking old souls. This is not man in a young man's body, isn't it? More or see. So this is, you know, the whole thing I love about The Smiths is the reason they called The Smiths is because Marlaid was looking at all these flock of seagulls, orchestral manoeuvres in the dark, all these very potentious, you know, multi-syllabic band names. And I thought, what's the most banal name we can possibly get? The Smiths. Okay. And there's something about that that kind of comes through in the music as well. In a sense, this is quite reductive, isn't it? This is a return to guitar based drums, almost to 60s, you know, pre-beatals almost. Yeah. Or, you know, or, or Jerry and the pacemakers or, but it's not, it's much more than that, isn't it? Because Johnny Mars musicality, because of Morris, he's extraordinarily unique vocal approach and his, his lyrical approach, which seems to have been born out of watching, you know, kitchen sink, British kitchen sink dramas. Again, we talk about short storytelling. Yeah. And, and funny. I think that's the thing. People always forget about Morris. You know, they always say, Oh, heaven, those are miserable. Now, how miserable can you get? Well, actually, that song is anything but miserable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's hilarious. My great girlfriend and a coma. This is so funny. You know, it's a black humor. It's a very northern humor, but the headmaster, Richard, what a fantastic way to do it.
Speaker 3I think it's not only, I mean, you know, the thing is, it's what you said, the musicality, Mark Rook, and so on, they are great. They're really good. And they are players. Yeah. I think this is the thing that, you know, I was playing actually the sister mercy album, which I really, really like, but it's got, it's kind of got a monolithic sound, although they use acoustics occasionally and it varies, it's got a monolithic sound. This actually is all over the show. You can hear aspects of funk, aspects of 60's soul, aspects of, you know, great ballads of the 60's, but then you can also hear this kind of quite intricate 80's four piece band making some great music. I mean, the title track. It's quite experimental. There's quite a number of tracks. that you sound effects as well. You know, I think they do sound of their age to a degree. But they really are players. You know, get a band foot and I think people dismiss them because of what they saw as the monotonal Morrissey voice. But while I was listening to Morrissey, not only is he a remarkable lyricist and a vocalist who is 100% himself, unaffected, almost coming out of nowhere. He's really imaginative rhythmically. You know, he does some bizarre- Well, melodically, too. Laying, am melodically. But also, the way she plays on the rhythms of the complex music. And I was comparing that against an album that clearly was influenced by, dismiss this year, love not money and occasion. And I think Tracy thought it's a great vocalist. But actually, she's not doing the acrobatics he's doing. You know, she's singing really nicely and really well and some lovely melodies. But he's doing some extraordinary things. Well, some of his melodies,
Speaker 2that joke isn't funny anymore, what a melody. I mean, okay, the piece of music Johnny Mark created is stunning anyway. Yeah. But the way Morrissey finds the melodies is so him and so unique and so difficult to imitate. Almost to the point that it seems like, I mean, I think he is the definition of an idiot Savon, is that he doesn't really, he doesn't have any training, he doesn't know what he's doing, he's just doing it. He's doing Morrissey,
Speaker 3lyrically and vocally.
Speaker 2Lyrically and vocally, he's just doing Morrissey and he's just a very, very unique individual. For good and bad, you know, some of his politics, I may not agree with particularly these days, but songs like this joke isn't funny anymore. The headmaster, ritual, nowhere fast. Meet his murder, as you say. It's such a great body of work, isn't it? And my favorite, I think we talked about this before. My favorite statistic about the Smiths is that in the time it took yes to follow up 9-1-2-5 with the big generator. Eight songs, the Smiths formed, released four albums, two compilations and about 20 singles and broke up and changed the face, certainly changed the face of alternative music. Yeah. I love that statistic. So very prolific, they were a true band, weren't they? They were true band. They were a true band. There were misfits in a way, but the founder common ground that created something amazing.
Speaker 3But that's it, because, you know, I love, you know, we were saying how to love what a beautiful, a mapped out album, but that is very much the vision of Kate Bush using the studio. Detail, songs from the big chair, tears for fears and Chris Hughes. This is a great band and a versatile band, making some really interesting music. And you can, I suppose what's great about the Smiths is partly because of Morris's uniqueness. They were difficult to place at the time. But if you're listening to some of the music, you can hear how Rook might have been in a certain ratio to our funk band before he's in the Smiths or something, or how Mark is drawing anything from Richard Thompson to Hard Rock in certain things as well. And now Rodgers.
Speaker 2Now Rodgers is, he'd called his son Nile apparently. After now, Rodgers is the world's big truth. There's so many
Speaker 3influences in there. And a great versatile band.
Speaker 2And then Morris is love of like 60s, you know, manufactured pop icons like Sandy Shore and Dusty Sprint, not manufactured in the case of those, but do you know what I mean? We'll look at the melodies you feel comfortable from there. - Yeah, yeah. - We love the Smiths, folks. We actually love the Smiths. And we, at least I, I think to him also, I think you'd agree with me. We also love this band, The Water Boys. This is The Sea, their third album. This is the album that has the hit on it, which is unfortunate in a way that the band are known, I think by a lot of people only, is for having this one hit the whole of the moon. - Yeah. - Because I think their albums are amazing. And I think this is including this album, it's an amazing record.
Speaker 3I mean, I love, you know, I love what followed, but actually my favorite, probably as a pagan place, and this, I love a pagan place in Fisherman's Blues, but yes, yeah. - And this I think, you know, we were raving about Astral Weeks on the last. And it's definitely got the spirit of Astral Weeks in there. - Yes. - And I remember, you know, I've read subsequently that he was influenced by a minimalist composer, weirdly enough. Steve Reich was a big influence on him during this period. But once more, especially the title track, he's doing that hit Nottick Astral Weeks, playing two relatively obvious chords, but somehow, managing to make them, stretch them into this spiritual one- - Just getting lost in it. -
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, the title track of a pagan place is similar to any, just the same chord sequence. But, and he's got an amazing voice, hasn't he? I mean, it's interesting because there's a lot of, you know, voices from this era that perhaps underachieving voices, I think of, you know, things, you know, like Andy McCluskey from OMD, for example. - Yeah. - Not a gracing, but sort of charming, in a way, burn some, Barney from New Order, we took it. He's got the voice, doesn't he, my God? He's got the voice to compete with you, Van Morrison. He's got the voice to channel that kind of spiritual, losing yourself in the music quality. The one thing I don't like so much about this record, which I like, pagan place, and the following Amp Fisherman's Blues a bit better, is it sounds a bit 1985 in the production? There's a lot more artifice in the fabric of the production, to me, big reverbs on the drums and things like that. Which makes me like, it's slightly less. -
Speaker 3I think it's mainly on the drums. I think the material doesn't suffer. You know, possibly some of the keyboard sounds as well,
Speaker 2but not so much, yeah. But yes, I mean, one of my favorite bands are the whole '80s, brilliant singer. Don't bang the drum, the pan within,
Speaker 3just, I'm right. - Great song. - How it does it, it transcends the artifice in the production because of his organic voice and because of that sense that, you know, he's seeking Nirvana in the music, and you go with it every single step of the way. -
Speaker 2And for me, that's what makes him an old soul as well, is 'cause I could easily have imagined him carving out this catalog in the '70s, too. -
Speaker 3Yeah, you can hear how this could be a singer-songwriter who emerges alongside Tim Buckley and Van Morrison in the late '60s, he could have made it at that point. -
Speaker 2Completely. - So you mentioned everything but the girls love not money album, this is kind of their album where they're almost trying to be the Smiths, isn't it? I think they've been what kind of admitted, you know, they were very much enthralled to. -
Speaker 3It's a good album, it's good, it's good. And there's a few of the sort of the jazzy arrangements that come in that the Smiths would never do, some of the horn sections and so on. Couple of beautiful ballads, the one that Ben Watts sings, is it Sean or something? -
Speaker 2One thing I like about everything but the girl, is that every album has kind of got its own little personality, isn't it? - Yeah. - This is so different to their debut Eden and then very different to like Idol Wild and so every album, I'm just good, and then obviously later on the drum and bass. -
Speaker 3It is almost every album, it's an album apart, I agree. - Which I love that about the album. - And this was a good one, if not the best, but good. Beautiful cover as well. - Yeah. (upbeat music)
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